#indiewebcamp 2015-03-05

2015-03-05 UTC
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KevinMarks tantek, here's a twitter RSVp example: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/570392131795202048
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@kevinmarks Yes: Going to Homebrew Website Club in SF tomorrow night #indieweb http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/yes-going-to-homebrew-website-club-in-sf-tomorrow-night (twitter.com/_/status/570392131795202048)
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KevinMarks hm, kyle's RSVP markup is a bit repetitive
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kylewm KevinMarks: ohh, how can i fix it?
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KevinMarks it says Kevin Marks (www.facebook.com) is going is attending.
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KevinMarks looks like you're hitting the bridgy p-name thing again
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kylewm hmm...yeah the p-name is a good fallback if you just parsed them as regular replies
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kylewm is this any better? https://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/19/1/indiewebcamp
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kylewm Ben Roberts Attending is attending.
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KevinMarks so, same problem
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kylewm Known just says "Kyle Mahan RSVPed yes"
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tantek hmm
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tantek which example shall we analyze first?
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aaronpk I display the green "attending" banner when I see the "rsvp=yes" property
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tantek KevinMarks all my RSVPs have been POSSEd to Twitter since the start ;)
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aaronpk I then show whatever is in the p-name because presumably people write little comments
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tantek (of when I started posting RSVPs)
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tantek kylewm: what's your permalink?
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KevinMarks it was what we had with likes on webmention.herokuapp.com
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KevinMarks so is this bridgy generating the text again?
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aaronpk yes bridgy is generating "is attending" text, which is actually good fallback text
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tantek KevinMarks: unlikely - those would be from FB
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KevinMarks do we each need to mung out the bridgy-made text if it is "is attending" etc?
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@_crossdiver Re-built my personal #indieweb site again. Hexo for Markdown compiling into static HTML, Amazoing S3 for hosting. http://ike.io (twitter.com/_/status/573273756640022528)
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aaronpk so how can I know whether the text is fallback or user-entered?
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tantek KevinMarks: that should not be necessary
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snarfed if it's from bridgy, it's never user-entered
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tantek what is Hexo Markdown?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Hexo Markdown" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hexo+Markdown&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-04%2Fline%2F1425514108900
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aaronpk without hard-coding things to bridgy
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KevinMarks should bridgy mark it with p-fallback or something?
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tantek no no no that should be completely unnecessary!
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aaronpk wow no
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tantek KevinMarks - too much markup, make less.
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KevinMarks bridgy is the one creating the text
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KevinMarks this happened before
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aaronpk the problem is the overloading of p-name (and also p-content)
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tantek hmm - I'm not convinced of that
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aaronpk we need good fallback text in the p-content and p-name of special post types for consumers that don't know about those types.
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aaronpk for example my bike rides have p-content of "Biked 2.1 miles in 14 minutes" http://aaron.pk/m4_ye2Q
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tantek we need to look at such special post types on a case-by-case basis
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aaronpk so if that shows up in a reader which ignores all the other properties, it'll still look reasonable
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aaronpk (actually it also has a photo of the map because I went a little overboard)
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aaronpk so the question is then what should it do if I enter text myself in that bike ride?
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aaronpk looking for an example
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KevinMarks right, thats the point - we need to distinguish between generated fallback and actual comments
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tantek kylewm: was this RSVP related? your RSVP?
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kylewm sorry what do you mean?
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kylewm Hexo is a static site generator
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kylewm not sure what Hexo for Markdown is
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/m4YES3L right now my site removes the autogenerated text
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tantek you said: kylewm: KevinMarks: ohh, how can i fix it?
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kylewm tantek: https://kylewm.com/2015/02/homebrew-website-club-2015-february-25
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kylewm ironically i was more excited about fixing the markup than the copy
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tantek kylewm: I always have a hard time finding your rsvps from your home page :)
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snarfed just for reference, here's bridgy's mf2: https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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snarfed (pulled from https://www.brid.gy/facebook/11500459 )
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tantek kylewm: oh this is about other people's RSVPs
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kylewm tantek: ah that's a good note
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tantek ok we can start with the bridgy example
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tantek looks at the raw markup
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tantek in the bridgy case, since FB RSVPs have no user-authored text, it makes sense to figure out a way to omit any display text if the only information is the RSVP status
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tantek ok first things first we don't need e-content for sure
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aaronpk tantek: but for consumers that don't recognize rsvps, it should still show up as a regular reply
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tantek aaronpk yes hence fallback
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aaronpk okay, will be curious how you suggest this
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tantek aaronpk, we must of course start with, what is the desired UX?
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tantek which has the follow-up of
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tantek for RSVP aware consuming code? or RSVP unaware consuming code?
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aaronpk right
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tantek let's take the aware use-case first
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tantek what is an rsvp
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Loqi An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post https://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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tantek nothing about how to present an rsvp
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is an event
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Loqi An event is a type of post that in addition to a post name (event title) has a start datetime (likely end datetime), and a location https://indiewebcamp.com/event
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KevinMarks so the bridgy markup does say it twice
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KevinMarks https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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tantek KevinMarks you are jumping to plumbing conclusions
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tantek without first defining the desired UX outcome
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KevinMarks in pure text terms, the bridgy post is duplicative
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tantek are you making a storage judgment?
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KevinMarks no wonder everyone else gets confused
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KevinMarks no, a "what si the text UX we want" one
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KevinMarks without parsing any markup, bridy's relected post say "Tantek Çelik is attending. Tantek Çelik is attending."
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KevinMarks in fact, if you read the alt text too (as as creenreader would) it says "Tantek Çelik is attending. Tantek Çelik Tantek Çelik is attending."
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kylewm the bridgy ui is what you get when you generate microformats html *from* microformats json ... probably not the ideal way to design for user consumption :)
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kylewm s/user/human
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: the bridgy ui is what you get when you generate microformats html *from* microformats json ... probably not the ideal way to design for human consumption :)
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KevinMarks but you and aaron are parsing that HTML
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KevinMarks bridgy is generating json first then html?
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KevinMarks that may be the issue
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kylewm KevinMarks: yeah, it converts facebook to activitystreams json to microformats json to microformats html
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tantek KevinMarks do you have a URL to how you think RSVP consuming code would ideally display RSVPs?
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tantek desperately tries to pull the conversation out from the plumbing depths.
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KevinMarks the plumbing is causing the bad markup
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KevinMarks bridgy sends a webmention to kye pointing to this: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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KevinMarks s/kye/kylewm/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: bridgy sends a webmention to kylewm pointing to this: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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tantek KevinMarks, it's hard to get to where you want to go if you don't know where that is.
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KevinMarks so https://kylewm.com/2015/02/homebrew-website-club-2015-february-25
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tantek.com edited /event (+688) "how to (sub)head fixes, add why section" (view diff)
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tantek s/so//
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KevinMarks shoudl present that wm as ' Tantek Çelik (www.facebook.com) is going'
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KevinMarks cf http://tantek.com/2015/055/t8/homebrew-website-club-mozsf
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KevinMarks which is presented with text and links
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kylewm so what if someone rsvp'd "I'm <data class="p-rsvp" value="yes">attending</data> HWC and hope to get help setting up my website!"
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kylewm I would prefer to show both the "attending" bit and the additional comment
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KevinMarks right, which is fine
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KevinMarks the problme is that bridgy says it redundantly
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kylewm for an implementation that does not recognize RSVPs as special, I would want that to show "kylewm: I'm attending HWC and hope to get help setting up my website!"
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kylewm for an implementation that does recognize them as special, "kylewm: [[RSVPed Yes]] I hope to get help setting up my website!
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KevinMarks hm, bridgy also puts an rsvp in the title of https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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KevinMarks that would require NLP
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kylewm hehe, I know
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kylewm but is there some way to use the p-rsvp span to "block out" the redundant section
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kylewm so that fallbacks would use the whole p-name, but rsvp-consuming implementations could get just the non-p-rsvp part?
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kylewm does that make sense?
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KevinMarks if it said kylewm is going<cr>I'm attending HWC and hope to get help setting up my website!
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KevinMarks that would eb OK
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kylewm but that's what is says now?
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kylewm is going<br>is attending
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KevinMarks yes, I am agreeing that your site si doing the right thing
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KevinMarks it is bridgy that is making crappy RSVPs
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tantek I still don't see how you can conclude "the right thing" without knowing what presentation you are aiming for.
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kylewm tantek: I tried to answer your presentation question
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KevinMarks I am aiming for a skimmable list of responses wiht optional comments, just as kyle, aaron and known do now
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tantek KevinMarks - can you write that up?
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KevinMarks except that bridgy is generating redundant comments that don't help
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tantek.com edited /event (+61) "brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - that's not state of the art for RSVP displaying
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tantek see existing documented research on this: https://indiewebcamp.com/event#Attendees
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tantek.com edited /event (+5) "/* Attendees */ More screenshots needed" (view diff)
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tantek "skimmable list of responses" is more like an undesigned approach
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tantek lack of RSVP-specific design
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tantek kylewm - will try to sift through the plumbing talk
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kylewm tantek: haha fair enough, this line and the next: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04#t1425515628213
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KevinMarks even in a non-rsvp specific design I think the bridgy post will still say things twice
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tantek I think the problem is in the approach of having your RSVP aware consuming code generate text to display
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kylewm i.e. the reply is trying to be a reply and an rsvp, when it should really be one or the other?
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kylewm I think that's probably the answer
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kylewm they are certainly separate on Facebook
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tantek I believe there is precedent for this
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tantek feels like the analysis we did for likes
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tantek where we decided that u-like-of is sufficient
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tantek an u-in-reply-to was unnessary
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aaronpk actually an analogous situation woult be if an h-entry has u-like-of then it would not have a p-name or p-content
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tantek aaronpk - not at all - it would still have p-name for fallback
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snarfed fallback++
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tantek and everything has a p-name
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Loqi fallback has 1 karma
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tantek whether explicit or implicit
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aaronpk but I thought we were talking about the problem of not knowing whether it's important to display the name
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tantek in the case of a like, we do know
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tantek if there's a u-like-of, no need to display p-name
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tantek this is why I said it's case-by-case
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aaronpk that's because we've decided that "likes" don't have additional content like text
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tantek and try to generalize it is at best premature, at worst architecture astronomy
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aaronpk but we explicitly do want rsvps to be able to contain text comments
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tantek s/generalize it/generalize it to all "special" post types
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and try to generalize it to all "special" post types is at best premature, at worst architecture astronomy
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tantek aaronpk - right! and the way we do explict text responses is … in-reply-to
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kylewm aaronpk: "we explicitly do want rsvps to be able to contain text comments" -- do we? i think maybe we don't
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aaronpk i think most examples of indie rsvps contain a comment
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aaronpk and facebook certainly encourages it too
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kylewm it does??
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tantek and typical RSVP UIs have a place to comment at the same time as picking an RSVP state
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aaronpk also encourages comments for rsvp no
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tantek before you "send"
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tantek aaronpk: AKA "declines" in FB
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kylewm ok it changes the prompt to "Say why you can't go", but I wouldn't say it encourages you to comment on your decline
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kylewm and also the comment is a separate action
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tantek kylewm: it used to be one action - not sure when it changed
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tantek I feel like the user-visible fall back text inside the <data> element has a role to play here
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kylewm sorry benwerd if you just 9000 notifications of me toggling between Going and Not Going
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tantek is getting them too :)
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tantek if anything we have talked about extending what to RSVP
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tantek e.g. RSVPing with maybe "remote"
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tantek or RSVPing with a particular time block
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tantek does that make an RSVP an event itself? if it has its own dt-start and dt-end?
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tantek gets a real world example
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tantek hmm this is more like a comment than RSVP http://tantek.com/2015/061/t4/early-quiet-writing-open-discussion
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tantek ok I'll edit one
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kylewm if we give RSVPs a dt-start and dt-end, next they'll start wanting their own fax numbers
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KevinMarks there are "pick a time slot" use cases
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kylewm Doodle
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KevinMarks both in the "lets all agree on a time" case
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KevinMarks and the "pick a slot to have your chat" ones
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tantek edited: http://tantek.com/2015/061/t3/homebrew-website-club-creamery
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tantek KevinMarks - the "pick a time slot" and "let's all agree" use-case are coordination dependent
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tantek The use-case I'm talking about is not
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KevinMarks true
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tantek it's more FYI - I'm only going to be there from x to y
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tantek or: I won't be there until x
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tantek or: I have to leave at y
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tantek I have seen all three of those
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tantek in text comments as part of an RSVP - not in RSVP UIs
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kylewm yeah I can see those as being part of the RSVP, not a separate comment. also "maybe: if i can get a babysitter", etc.
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tantek or no: sorry, already have plans!
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KevinMarks our three methods are surprise, fear and ruthless efficiency
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tantek what are our three methods?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "our three methods" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=our+three+methods&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-04%2Fline%2F1425517638832
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tantek hah - too bad it doesn't work in reverse chronological order
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tantek hey aaronpk - can you extend the window for dfns by -3 minutes into the past?
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aaronpk so not going there lol
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tantek what? time is a continuum. I don't see the problem.
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aaronpk searching logs is harder than waiting for a specific bit of text
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tantek what is searching logs?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "searching logs" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=searching+logs&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-04%2Fline%2F1425517740649
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tantek yeah ok this would be mischievous ;)
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KevinMarks no-one expects the tantek inqusition
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@pierreozoux @BlakeLaPierre @coreoslinux I was considering participating, publishing on my site, and putting a copy on @airpair. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573289545032212480)
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snarfed so re bridgy rsvps…i glaze pretty fast at markup, as usual, but i'll implement anything as long as i don't have to understand it
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snarfed feel free to file an issue if/when there's a clear conclusion
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kylewm for the markup i was imagining, I think we would need a new property <span class="p-rsvp">yes</span> I'm going to HWC. <span class="p-rsvp-comment">I may be a few minutes late</span>
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kylewm (obviously it would need a better name than p-rsvp-comment
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kylewm )
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tantek.com edited /event (+540) "/* Attendees */ separate silo attendees, start document some of the indie event rsvp display brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: I don't think we need a new property
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tantek we already have an explicit way to provide comment content (rather than implied)
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tantek and that is p-summary or p-content - depending on whether the publisher wants the entire reply displayed as a comment on the destination, or only a summary
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tantek note p-name has *always* been fallback reply/comment content
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tantek thus the answer I think is simple
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tantek RSVP aware consuming code: if there's a p-rsvp, use it, and only display a comment if it is in a p-summary, or p-content
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kylewm I think I need to see an example, typically reply code would use the content property instead of the name property if it was available
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tantek RSVP unaware consuming code: (already defined behavior in /comments-presentation ) if there's a p-summary use it, else if p-content use it, else if p-name use it.
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tantek there, done
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tantek now let's see how existing RSVPs match that
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aaronpk that means many RSVP publishers will need to change their current behavior
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tantek aaronpk evidence?
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tantek not me
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tantek I already put my RSVP comment content in e-content
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aaronpk looks like I do too http://aaron.pk/r4_22
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kylewm tantek, how would RSVP-unaware code display: <span class="p-rsvp">yes</span> <span class="p-content">I'll be a couple minutes late</span>.
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tantek kylewm only the latter
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tantek span contents
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tantek thus that should be published as:
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tantek wait - that's not a real example - there's no event being reference
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tantek d
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tantek kylewm: URL to a real world example?
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tantek meanwhile in bridgy rsvp markup...
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tantek ditch <div class="e-content"> and the respective </div>
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tantek and instead of <div class="p-name"><a class="u-url" href="https://www.facebook.com/444025702419735#214611">Tantek Çelik is attending.</a></div>
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kylewm I don't have a real world example because this rule didn't exist yet!!
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tantek use <div class="p-name"><a class="u-url" href="https://www.facebook.com/444025702419735#214611">Tantek Çelik <data class="p-rsvp" value="yes">is attending</data>.</a></div>
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tantek hmm can further compact that
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tantek by de-duping the author
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tantek <div class="p-name">
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tantek <div class="h-card p-author">
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tantek <div class="p-name"><a class="u-url" href="https://www.facebook.com/214611">Tantek Çelik</a></div>
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tantek <img class="u-photo" src="https://graph.facebook.com/v2.2/214611/picture?type=large" alt="" />
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tantek </div>
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tantek <a class="u-url" href="https://www.facebook.com/444025702419735#214611">
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tantek <data class="p-rsvp" value="yes">is attending.</data></a>
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tantek </div>
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tantek this is for https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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tantek for RSVP aware clients - all they should be using is the p-rsvp, not the p-name
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tantek and for RSVP unaware clients - they will fall back to the p-name and display "Tantek Çelik is attending."
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tantek so I think that works
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kylewm tantek: here's an example. on your post http://tantek.com/2015/061/t3/homebrew-website-club-creamery "only for 17:00-19:00" is the part that should be displayed as the rsvp comment if this is recognized as an rsvp post
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tantek that fix to bridgy can be deployed immediately
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aaronpk I don't think the author name should be part of the p-name
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tantek and should work with existing consumers no problem without the e-content
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tantek as well as DRYing out the person and "is attending" text!
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aaronpk because then i'll be displaying the author name twice
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aaronpk er, not me, but rsvp-unaware consumers
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tantek that's reasonable
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aaronpk but that's a minor change
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tantek kylewm: my intent in that post was to have the entire thing displayed as a comment, not just the "only for 17:00-19:00" part
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tantek aaronpk - yes
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tantek and makes sense
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aaronpk i think the key that will help is having bridgy drop the e-content
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tantek yes
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tantek like I said earlier, too much markup, make less :)
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kylewm I need to see an example with with p-content where p-content < p-name
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tantek kylewm: if I didn't want that context as part of the comment, then I'd only include in my reply-context
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tantek s/include/include it
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kylewm: if I didn't want that context as part of the comment, then I'd only include it in my reply-context
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tantek kylewm the "general" example for that is when the p-name includes the p-rsvp as well as the p-content\
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tantek or is that what you mean?
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kylewm that was the example i was trying to give earlier but it was ignored because there is not an example in the wild
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tantek let's at least fix Bridgy's markup and move forward
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tantek kylewm: yeah - because it didn't read sensible
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tantek s/sensible/sensibly
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kylewm: yeah - because it didn't read sensibly
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kylewm <div class="h-entry">In reply to <a class="u-in-reply-to" href="http://aaron.pk/hwc-event">Homebrew Website Club</a>, <data class="p-rsvp" value="yes">I'll be there</data> <span class="p-content">but I may be a couple minutes late</span></div>
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kylewm RSVP aware consumers would handle that properly. Kyle [[RSVP Yes]] but I may be a couple minutes late
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kylewm RSVP-unaware consumers would only dispaly "but I may be a couple minutes late"
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aaronpk but isn't "I'll be there" part of the user-entered text in this case, so should go inside the p-content?
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kylewm I thought that was the whole entire problem we were trying to solve?
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tantek right aaronpk - I think that's the key
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kylewm "is attending" in the content
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tantek kylewm: no we are trying to solve the auto-generated text problem
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aaronpk but this example is "I'll be there" not "is attending"
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tantek digs through bridgy
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kylewm ok
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kylewm so there's no way to have some text as the comment and different text as the standalone-comment
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kylewm that's fine
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tantek yes I think that's reasonable
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kylewm didn't say that well
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kylewm no way to have some text as the fallback and only a subset of that text as the rsvp-comment
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aaronpk when would you want to do that?
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kylewm it's fine
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snarfed tantek: probably looking for https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/microformats2.py#L15
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kylewm the example i gave above is when i would want that, but it doesn't bother me if it's not possible
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aaronpk i actually disagree with that
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kylewm you disagree that that's what i would want?
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aaronpk lol well I disagree with that being a desirable outcome. Seeing just "but I may be a few minutes late" seems wrong, since the user entered more than that.
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kylewm what if it was [is attending
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aaronpk did you type "is attenting" when you made the RSVP post?
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kylewm what if it was "[is attending.] I'm really looking forward to seeing everyone"
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aaronpk cause that'd be pretty weird
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aaronpk i'm not sure what the brackets mean in your example
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tantek and that's exactly why we force this back to real world user behavior / examples
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kylewm i mean, what if i selected "Yes" from a drop down menu in my UI, and then typed in a comment
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kylewm the comment wouldn't necessarily duplicate "Yes I am attending"
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tantek snarfed I'm lost in that code - can't find any mention of p-rsvp
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aaronpk ah I see what you're getting at now
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snarfed tantek: search for rsvp
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snarfed i use a parser so i never see 'p-'
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aaronpk but I think it's still covered
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kylewm or what if the comment was ambiguous. like "I really miss you guys"
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tantek snarfed, I'm not following where <data class="p-rsvp"… is actually generated
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tantek I'm looking for what code generates this https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/444025702419735/214611
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aaronpk that's a good one. so you type "I really miss you guys" and choose "RSVP yes", that is handled fine for rsvp-aware consumers. but what about unaware?
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tantek aaronpk, kylewm I think the first problem is that the DRY violations in the Bridgy output is confusing things more than we need.
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kylewm aaronpk: precisely
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aaronpk tantek: this case actually has nothing to do with bridgy
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aaronpk here is an actual example of an ambiguous comment http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/07/01/1/
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snarfed tantek: ah. that's https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/source.py#L403 . a bit far away; it's used in the AS object's html content
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aaronpk currently that will appear as just a comment saying "I'm not available to host this week" on rsvp-unaware consumers, which does not include the RSVP yes/no information
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tantek why is that bad?
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aaronpk because people won't see whether it's a yes or no?
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tantek hmm - my bad - poor framing
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tantek "rsvp-unaware" is really only referring to readers right?
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aaronpk no, displaying comments too
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tantek where?
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aaronpk like before I added code looking for the "rsvp" property on replies
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aaronpk on event permalinks
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kylewm tantek: example https://snarfed.org/2014-06-16_homebrew-website-club-at-quip
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tantek why would you RSVP to a non-event?
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aaronpk what
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aaronpk yes thanks kylewm
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tantek wait is that an event post that shows comments but not RSVPs?!?
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aaronpk of course, all sites do that until the add explicit support for rsvps
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aaronpk hah another great ambiguous rsvp http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-is-over-at-quip-this-week-worth
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tantek ok I'm confused, why would an event post not display RSVPs?
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aaronpk because snarfed can create event posts by entering HTML into wordpress, but his webmention plugin doesn't understand rsvps
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tantek a-ha these are events embedded in a blog post, not actual event posts
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snarfed aaronpk: that's not true. "is attending" and "is not attending" are rsvps
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snarfed i just choose not to style them distinctly
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aaronpk oh I didn't realize that, they looked like regular comments and contained the bridgy default text
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snarfed oh i see what you mean though. functionally there's not much difference
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snarfed there is a little difference in the plumbing, but yeah, you can argue my site is only rsvp-aware underneath, not in presentation
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aaronpk i assume "is attending." is actually from the bridgy post and not generated by your site?
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tantek snarfed, I can't workout how to rewrite the markup across multiple elements
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snarfed aaronpk: it's both. my site massages rsvp content. details in https://snarfed.org/functions.php.txt
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snarfed tantek: sorry i don't follow
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aaronpk snarfed: whoa crazy
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tantek snarfed, in that Bridgy RSVP permalink I want to rewrite a *chunk* of markup, not just the line with p-rsvp
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aaronpk why do all that work to parse rsvps if you're not going to display them differently?
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snarfed tantek: oh, you're saying, you don't know how to refactor the bridgy code to get the markup you want?
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snarfed don't worry about that. if you can file an issue with the exact markup you want, we'll make it happen
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snarfed aaronpk: not sure
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snarfed i think there was a reason
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tantek snarfed - ok that's a better way :)
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snarfed aaronpk: looking at my code, it just slightly tweaks language and formatting
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snarfed but i think the rsvp language actually comes from the semantic linkbacks plugin, not bridgy
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snarfed not sure though
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aaronpk that ambiguous benwerd rsvp is interesting though
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snarfed which?
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snarfed looks like he RTed, rsvped no, and replied
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aaronpk oh yep, that's not an rsvp. my bad
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tantek snarfed: ok I think I wrangled markdown code blocks: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/371
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snarfed thanks tantek!
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tantek I think what we discovered is the "name" is the general fallback
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tantek or rather, "name" *works* as a general fallback
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tantek further question - could/should we use *summary* as a *deliberate* fallback?
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aaronpk interesting, I could see doing that for my bike rides
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tantek that would free-up "name" to be more name-like if/when needed
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tantek whereas "summary" kind of makes sense for the *visual* summary of an RSVP with an icon representing yes/no/maybe for example, or even the auto-generated text for it
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tantek just some thinking
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tantek I still think summary is a good way to communicate to consuming code that the summary *can* be displayed instead of the full content, with perhaps a way to expand to show the full content
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tantek instead of the consuming code having the ellipse the content at an automatic but inopportune breaking point
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GWG I have returned
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kylewm tantek: I'm still a little confused about the previous issue. We have solved it so RSVP-aware implementations can ignore content-less bodies, but not for RSVP-unaware implementations (afaict)
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kylewm maybe that's just an ignorable case. events that don't recognize rsvps would be pretty weird
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tantek perhaps because the latter use-case is unclear
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tantek hence I asked about readers
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tantek like if your reader saw an RSVP post in my h-feed - would it do anything special?
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kylewm yeah readers is a good point
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tantek I think p-name as plain text fallback may be a forced position
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tantek as in, just like the <title> element
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tantek where you can *only* display plain text
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kylewm how should a reader display https://kylewm.com/test/rsvp.html
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tantek why test?
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kylewm tantek: because redwind can't generate replies where p-content is separate from p-name
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tantek you're deliberately asking about an implied p-name?
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tantek in which case
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tantek http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://kylewm.com/test/rsvp.html
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tantek not sure why attendingHomebrew is all one word
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kylewm I would want that rsvp to show up like "Kyle <img src="is-attending.png"/> Thanks for hosting!"
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kylewm but my reader would just show "in reply to Homebrew Website Club ... Thanks for hosting"
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tantek er, there's no inreplyto
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kylewm argh why not
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tantek is confused now and probably needs foo
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tantek d
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kylewm please reload
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kylewm oh, food > reload
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tantek kylewm: because there's no in-reply-to in the source?
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tantek right I think that's a reasonable fallback behavior for a reader
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tantek it's a reply, and the contents of your reply are "Thanks for hosting."
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tantek it might not be ideal, but that's the point of a fallback, they're not ideal
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kylewm ok
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tantek and if you didn't have that content
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kylewm https://kylewm.com/test/rsvp-no-content.html
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tantek https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=https://kylewm.com/test/rsvp-no-content.html
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tantek "I'm attending\n Homebrew Website Club at Quip\n Kyle"
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tantek also seems fine, though I suppose you could drop the author name if you put in an explicit p-name in the h-entry
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tantek which I think is reasonable for the same reason that aaronpk gave
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tantek or heck you could do this
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tantek <data class="p-rsvp" value="yes"><a class="p-author h-card" href="https://kylewm.com"><abbr title="Kyle">I'm</abbr></a> attending</data>
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tantek <a class="u-in-reply-to" href="https://snarfed.org/2014-06-16_homebrew-website-club-at-quip">Homebrew Website Club at Quip</a>
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tantek since presumably your <data> element and author element are auto-generated anyway - you can auto-generate that whole thing
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tantek and then no need for explicit p-name inside the h-entry
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kylewm does it at least make sense why i was arguing for a more complete fallback than that?
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kylewm in the https://kylewm.com/test/rsvp.html case
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tantek where you want a reader unaware of rsvps to display *all* of that ?
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kylewm yeah, "I'm attending HWC. Thanks for hosting"
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tantek I think it would/should - in the *title*, e.g. in a list view
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tantek which is where you're going to use the entire p-name rather than just the content
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kylewm in this case, I would detect the p-name as auto-generated and ignore it (bc content is a subset of name)
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kylewm and usually those types of p-names are ugly
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tantek huh
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tantek I suppose we still need to address that
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kylewm we can stop talking about it :) I'll document my concerns on the wiki
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GWG snarfed: You are dequeuing the CSS style sheet for syndication links...what about the part that governs what icon goes for what URL?
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tantek hey ben_thatmustbeme can you post the IWC header image or make me a co-admin of https://www.facebook.com/events/437461433068146/ and I can?
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tantek or aaronpk
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tantek wonders if he should bother to design clustering of RSVP posts in a stream.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, you actually should be a host
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tantek right, host, I keep forgetting the terminology
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tantek that seems like an event post feature worth documenting
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tantek what is an event host?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "event host" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=event+host&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-04%2Fline%2F1425524290251
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tantek can any host add a host? or only the creator?
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like I can add a host, so i would assume any
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tantek keeps refreshing
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ben_thatmustbeme it shows you as already being a host
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ben_thatmustbeme https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/skins/indieweb/indiewebcamp-logo-500px.png that image? won't look good i don't think
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tantek what are badges?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/badges
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tantek more like http://indiewebcamp.com/File:im-attending-indiewebcamp.png
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, you aren't made a host until you actually say you are attending
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@t going to @IndieWebCamp Cambridge @MIT 2015-03-19..20! indie event: http://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/19/1/indiewebcamp silo: https://www.facebook.com/events/437461433068146/ (ttk.me t4_y4) (twitter.com/_/status/573318907194302464)
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@geo_pak_army1 going to @IndieWebCamp Cambridge @MIT 2015-03-19..20! indie event: http://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/19/1/indiewebcamp silo: https://www.facebook.com/events/437461433068146/ (tt ... (twitter.com/_/status/573319305888071680)
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tantek wat
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10152705913402584 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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ben_thatmustbeme sooo is that a both that just tweets random stuff?
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ben_thatmustbeme and retweets random things
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10206693276876986 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10101376739574794 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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tantek uh who are all these people invited to indiewebcamp cambridge?
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10204827632423246 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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tantek what just happened?
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ben_thatmustbeme that was me
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10153152560433126 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10204675941830886 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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tantek who is Micky Metts?
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10153613295213066 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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ben_thatmustbeme i sent out another round of invites to developer friends in the area
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10101376739569804 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10100964949914574 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10101376739579784 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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ben_thatmustbeme i dind't realize bridgy reports them all to loqi
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10101376739584774 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10101376739589764 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#10155244614465043 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#813036332077312 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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ben_thatmustbeme as for who Micky Metts is, looking at the photos i'm pretty sure she was there last year
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tantek.com edited /2015/Cambridge (-8) "move to do to be part of organizers" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2015/Cambridge/Planning (+128) "contact last year sponsors" (view diff)
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bret is an <ul> of <li>'s really only different than a <div> of <div>'s by its default display style? (and semantics?)
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acegiak they're also spelled differently
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bret i guess there are some special attributes
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bret are semantic tags used for anything?
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bret other than convention, and shorthand styling hooks?
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kylewm bret: tantek has said in the past basically no
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bret why doesn't microformats use them?
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bret or have some kind of mapping to them
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kylewm like <article> always implies class="h-entry"?
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bret i mean, I haven't really thought through it
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bret but that would be wicked clean
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kylewm that must have been sort of the dream of them, that a screenreader would say "give me all the articles under main" or whatever
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bret has anyone/thing ever tried that?
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kylewm bret: here's what i'm remembering http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-12-29/line/1419905990599
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kylewm lolol http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-08/line/1402246441000
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kylewm "people tried defining <article> based fallbacks to convert to Atom semantics and failed horribly in the HTMLWG in the late 2000s"
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@LearnRich RT @kevinmarks: "@tommchenry: HTML http://t.co/Q5LIKzbluz" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573359407964160000)
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bret wonder what the failure was
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bret people markup things with mf2 to get access to a machine readable version of the page, people markup with semantic tags based around a loose idea of how they should be used
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bret maybe due to lack of an end goal, what you could possible get back from semantic tags is relatively low quality
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bret still, if there was an actual usecase with how semantic are used together, like there is with mf2 classes, (maybe mirroring mf2) people would use them in a useful way
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bret anyway, not planning on writing a parser anytime soon
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aaronpk i dunno we seem to get by just fine with microformats classes, which have the added benefit of being recognizable in the source code
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pwcc MDN has some helpful usage notes on semantics - eg https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/article
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pwcc That said, reality also kicks in firmly in other places. Be great if browser makers could solve this chicken/egg problem 0- https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/HTML/Sections_and_Outlines_of_an_HTML5_document
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Loqi slack/snarfed: GWG: good question! that's in my stylesheet, <https://snarfed.org/w/wp-content/themes/snarfed-ryu/style.css> . search for relsyn
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KevinMarks_ Maybe we should start Homebrew Email Club http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/04/hillary-clinton-private-email-server-new-york-home
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KevinMarks_ Bret, we had xoxo which used li and dl tags for json type structures
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pfefferle_ good morning all
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@andkjaer The Ultimate Guide to Creating a Killer Explainer Video >> http://www.quicksprout.com/?p=30073&utm_content=buffer570a4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Neil Patel. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/573402844721758208)
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cweiske is anyone using php with gearman? how do you ensure the workers are started when booting the machine?
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@elliottucker @HongPong @captainkurtis @rascul3 @withknown hey..sorry about that. https://elliottucker.net/setting-up-known-with-nginx-indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/573406729905553408)
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pfefferle !tell GWG your likes (https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/26/listening-serial/) are not accessible via RSS/Atom
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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fkooman cweiske: i added both class1 and class3 cacert root cert, are they both needed, or is the class1 sufficient?
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cweiske I'm not sure about this unfortunately
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cweiske thanks, it works with my page now
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cweiske now I get: "IndieCert was unable to find a matching fingerprint on your claimed URL"
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cweiske hey, and here you tell me what to put into the html
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cweiske nice
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fkooman yeah, that was always there :)
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cweiske I never came to this point
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cweiske but it'd be still nice if the algorithm was documented somewhere
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fkooman yeah, working on it :)
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cweiske You are now successfully authenticated as https://cweiske.de/!
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cweiske whoa
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fkooman it is actually super simple
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cweiske great
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@GlennRicePro So, Hillary Clinton prefers self-hosting, eh? Could the U.S. be getting their first #indieweb President in 2016? ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/573423381019631618)
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fkooman cweiske: also documented the fingerprint generation in the blog post
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cweiske can't we simply use the sha256 fingerprint that the browser's cert info popup shows?
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cweiske http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-03-04%20chromium%20fingerprint.png
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cweiske aaronpk, do you know about https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman/blog/proposed_changes_to_indieauth_protocol.html ?
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fkooman cweiske: he doesn't i just published it 3 seconds ago ;)
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elf-pavlik :D
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cweiske erm, I read it yesterday already
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fkooman cweiske: oh yeah, but it was not mentioned anywhere, you looked around! :P
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cweiske :)
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fkooman cweiske: there is a standard for publishing fingerprints on webpages...so I'd prefer to use that :) I also like the scoping to the particular instance of "IndieCert"
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cweiske ok
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /IndieAuth (+237) "/* Why is the IndieAuth verification response form-encoded instead of JSON */ Proposal for content negotiation" (view diff)
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tommorris fkooman: those all seem reasonable. I hope aaronpk implements ‘em. ;-)
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fkooman tommorris: thanks :)
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GWG Good morning
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Loqi GWG: pfefferle left you a message 2 hours, 52 minutes ago: your likes (https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/26/listening-serial/) are not accessible via RSS/Atom
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GWG pfefferle: Are you sure?
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GWG Do you mean the posts themselves, or the part of it I add dynamically?
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GWG I probably need a custom feed template.
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pfefferle GWG the link I posted has no ”žreal“ content, and so the content field of the feed is completely empty
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GWG pfefferle: Yes, so I need to customize the feed. I didn't think of that.
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pfefferle GWG I realized that I forgot to subscribe to your feed!!
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pfefferle GWG thats why I found the problem ;)
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GWG I guess I need to look up how to do that. But will figure it out.
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Loqi [bridgy] Pavlik Elf RSVPed maybe to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge (https://www.facebook.com/437461433068146#100001491197200)
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pfefferle GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-activitystream-extension/blob/master/activitystream-extension.php#L12
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fkooman cweiske: i removed the class 3 CAcert subroot again, it is signed by the class 1 cert, and everything still seems to work...
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GWG pfefferle: I've added it as an issue
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cweiske yes, I can still authenticate
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millette oh my https://developers.facebook.com/products/anonymous-login/
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@pierreozoux Setting up Known with Nginx https://elliottucker.net/setting-up-known-with-nginx-indieweb.html https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/setting-up-known-with-nginx-setting-up-known-with-nginx-indiewebhtml (twitter.com/_/status/573491048846094336)
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GWG I'm working on styling h-cards again. Why don't we have h-card examples in the wiki? Or am I just missing them?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, you should probably check the microformats wiki for that
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I meant styling, not markup
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, hmm well... screen shot yours and add it :P
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@anomalily @HilaryClinton is #indieweb - she runs her own mail server out of her house. (twitter.com/_/status/573502102313439232)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I want to improve mine.
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GWG I should be screenshotting other people's.
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmustbeme ick, mail servers
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@adamprocter a #markdown #golang blog engine with mysql comments (future hope to include webmentions and inline commenting) https://github.com/adamprocter/gomarkdownblog/ (twitter.com/_/status/573505248377073664)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk about the event hosts feature, at least on FB, it appears only the creator of the event can upgrade people to hosts.
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tantek e.g. on this event: https://www.facebook.com/events/444025702419735/ I am a host, but I am unable to make sandro a host
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tantek aside: just invited / added you to that event as well ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek what is an event host?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "event host" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=event+host&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-05%2Fline%2F1425571153460
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GWG tantek: The question I asked a few minutes ago...it seems up your alley. You have any thoughts?
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tantek !tell GWG, ben_thatmustbeme yes there are nicely styled hCards documented on the microformats wiki (obviously easy to re-use for h-card) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild#Individuals (see the first subsection "Nicely styled)
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tantek "
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek first example is our very own npdoty
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kylewm tantek: http://timvandamme.com/ example is no longer an hcard
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ben_thatmustbeme http://hcard.geekhood.net/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me#result
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, weird
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 5 minutes ago: yes there are nicely styled hCards documented on the microformats wiki (obviously easy to re-use for h-card) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild#Individuals (see the first subsection "Nicely styled)
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kylewm fkooman: in your indieauth proposal, I don't understand why/when you would want the auth and verify endpoints to be different
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cweiske aaronpk, how is a hub supposed to make a thin ping in pubsubhubub 0.4?
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cweiske section 7 only talks about fat pings
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kylewm cweiske: section 7 doesn't say the content of the notification has to be anything in particular
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aaronpk good morning
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aaronpk lots of catching up to do
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GWG aaronpk: How so?
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 56 minutes ago: yes there are nicely styled hCards documented on the microformats wiki (obviously easy to re-use for h-card) http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild#Individuals (see the first subsection "Nicely styled)
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aaronpk cweiske: yes the spec itself doesn't say what the payload contains, so you could just as well interpret that as fat or thin pings
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Acidnerd can someone lend me a hand for a few minutes ?
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Acidnerd i wanted to start my indie site from scratch
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Acidnerd i followed all the install steps
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Acidnerd but now when i visit on browser i get 108.61.190.132
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Acidnerd a php file being downloaded ??
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Acidnerd i'm probably missing out something very simple, just can't find it
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Acidnerd instead of showing the process to finish install i get this in the URL bar : http://_/begin/
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Acidnerd anyone ? aaronpk ?
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Loqi [mention] http://shinboard.net/?p=86 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles-ko (pingback)
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aaronpk Acidnerd: it sounds like your web server is not configured to run php code
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Acidnerd that's odd
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Acidnerd hmm let me check that
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aaronpk now reviewing fkooman's post
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Acidnerd aaronpk, it's getting better
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Acidnerd http://black.intoxvs.info/begin/
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Acidnerd but now it's nginx turn to freak out
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Acidnerd http://black.intoxvs.info/info.php my php is 5.6
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bret getting nginx and php working together on a vps presents a surprisingly steep learning curve when you are just getting started
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GWG bret: I didn't find it that hard
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GWG It's not Apache, but there were plenty of tutorials
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Acidnerd also the wiki part about Known and Nginx is hard to catch
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Acidnerd and his config link is dead : https://gist.github.com/rascul/ad665c9df9898c6e5074
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bret part of the problem was how opaque linux packaging is. I would install something and have no idea where it would land or be configured
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bret and would be inconsistent with the documents I was reading
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Acidnerd the official Known doc also don't even mention Nginx once
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bret it was a while ago, definitely a frustrating experience. I think not finding good tutorials was part of the problem
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bret i should have another go now that I have a much deeper understanding of unix
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rascul i wasn't able to get known completely working with nginx
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Loqi definitely
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rascul i wasn't aware something was linked to a gist of mine
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bret GWG: do you have a collection of resources that you recommend to beginners?
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Acidnerd it's on the wiki rascul
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rascul which page?
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Acidnerd i think i'm going to give up and go back to apache & mysql
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Acidnerd i also gave up mongodb
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Acidnerd it's just impossible, either from repository, or latest nginx repo or even manual install
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kylewm.com created /Postel's_law (+631) "stub with definition" (view diff)
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Acidnerd rascul, here https://indiewebcamp.com/Known#Fix_404_Not_Found_on_.2Fbegin
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rascul removing it now, i ended up using apache in the end for it
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rascul.io edited /Known (-147) "/* Setup Known on nginx */ link was dead and i'm not using nginx" (view diff)
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Acidnerd nobody is i think
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Acidnerd but the wiki make it look like it's doable
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aaronpk i think i did it at one point
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kylewm.com edited /IndieAuth (+276) "/* Why is the IndieAuth verification response form-encoded instead of JSON */ vote to settle on one canonical format" (view diff)
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rascul i had it running but i couldn't get any of the extra stuff working like twitter
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aaronpk ugh people don't like the form-encoded response
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aaronpk the only reason I could see to switch to JSON response is that the OAuth 2.0 spec says it should be JSON
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kylewm are there other examples of APIs returning form encoded data?
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bret who cares about form encoded, use the library that every language has
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aaronpk remember when every language had an xml parser?
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bret oh right, server to server
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+232) "/* Why is the IndieAuth verification response form-encoded instead of JSON */" (view diff)
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bret the form encoded lib that every...*
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bret who cares if its json vs form encoded? its results in the same object after parsing either way
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aaronpk json_decode vs parse_str in php
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bret js pass it through JSON.parse
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bret form encoding needs a lib
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elf-pavlik bret++
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bret i guess thats the single, expected advantage
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Loqi bret has 52 karma
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aaronpk how about other languages?
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elf-pavlik maybe worth doing comparison on a wiki?
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aaronpk ruby `URI.decode_www_form` but doesn't treat [] as arrays and actually turns it into a kind of weird data structure
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elf-pavlik http://ruby-doc.org//stdlib-2.0/libdoc/json/rdoc/JSON.html
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bret form encoding has the advantage for micropub, since you can do dead simple clients
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aaronpk form-encoding for POST requests still makes a ton of sense
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aaronpk but this is in the context of responses
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bret aaronpk: really? oh no
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aaronpk yeah if someone wants to make a wiki page comparing the behavior of parsing form-encoded and json in a bunch of langauges/environments that would be awesome
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elf-pavlik why not add xml to that mix :)
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aaronpk sure lol
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bret libxml--
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Loqi libxml has -1 karma
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elf-pavlik form-encoded | json | xml
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bret nein! XD
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aaronpk not like anyone would actually fight for an XML API at this point
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bret i think there are some interesting conveniences that both json and form encoding have... right now today.
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bret parsing json in JS is super easy and generally well supported in other languages through standard libraries
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bret form encoding post requests can be made by raw html
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aaronpk bret: ignore the form-encoded requests for this argument
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aaronpk this is only about API responses
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bret yeah, for api callbacks, I would say json would be easier to deal with
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elf-pavlik IMO also more intuitive
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elf-pavlik at least as for today ...
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bret unless there is an example where the callback needs to be sent from an html page?
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elf-pavlik maybe application/x-protobuf ? ;)
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aaronpk yeah see this is what i'm talking about
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, xml reply would be.... horrible
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, if you enable Content Negotiation, would only indieauth.com need to support both from-encoded and json?
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aaronpk and any other authorization servers
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ben_thatmustbeme actually it would be better to use mf2 reply then as you can just display results without parsing if desired
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 47 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme depending on the situation that may be useful
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aaronpk not super useful for the token response, since that is only ever consumed by code
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elf-pavlik but not clients
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, but for webmention response that might be quite useful
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: my webmention endpoint does that already :)
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ben_thatmustbeme especially if you return a status URL
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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aaronpk look at the webmention form on my site, it makes a POST request to the actual webmention endpoint
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bret ben_thatmustbeme: thats an actually pretty interesting idea.
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aaronpk if it's coming from a browser then I return HTML
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aaronpk with a status URL
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bret for micropub at least, not indieauth
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, thats a good idea. I haven't done the whole "give me your link" thing
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/issues/27
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elf-pavlik "convert between mf2 and form-encoded micropub"
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ben_thatmustbeme as I would always interpret it as a mention instead of a reply or anything
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ben_thatmustbeme hey aaronpk, did you ever try doing the mp_update_field things?
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bret elf-pavlik: parse html + mf2 -> json -> form encode that object
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: not yet, remind me?
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aaronpk is there a link?
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ben_thatmustbeme for updating a field, appending, removing, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme i was thinking at IWC i may try to create a new endpoint for contacts
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ben_thatmustbeme and one for chat logs
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elf-pavlik bret, can you make gist with simple js script doing it?
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bret elf-pavlik: in js it would be: request + https://www.npmjs.com/package/microformat-node + https://www.npmjs.com/package/form-serialize
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ben_thatmustbeme being able to add fields without having to send the whole contact would be better, was going to model it after MP
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bret elf-pavlik: sure
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elf-pavlik bret, please also make some values arrays...
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elf-pavlik e.g. multiple email addresses in h-card
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elf-pavlik doesn't know mf that well...
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@HongPong RT @elliottucker: @HongPong @captainkurtis @rascul3 @withknown hey..sorry about that. https://elliottucker.net/setting-up-known-with-nginx-indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/573556803017043969)
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cweiske aaronpk, about the pubsub payload: section 7 says: "... with the payload of the notification. This request MUST have a Content-Type corresponding to the type of the topic. The hub MAY reduce the payload to a diff between two consecutive versions if its format allows it."
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aaronpk re-reads
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cweiske this totally sounds like I have to send the whole topic/contents of the page
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cweiske except when the content type supports diffing
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cweiske one could argue about "payload of the notification"
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cweiske this could be anything
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aaronpk yeah that seems to be defined loosely in section 2 https://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html#anchor2
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cweiske but the content-type must be that of the topic....
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aaronpk "Notification: A payload describing how a topic's contents have changed, or the full updated content. Depending on the topic's content type, the difference (or "delta") may be computed by the hub and sent to all subscribers."
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cweiske ok, so it's diff or full content
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aaronpk so if the topic is HTML, then you have to send HTML
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aaronpk but "" is also valid HTML :)
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cweiske but "" isn't full updated content
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aaronpk i guess it doesn't describe how the contenst have changed either
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aaronpk I dunno, it's all so undefined
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cweiske the diff makes sense in atom or rss
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cweiske when you only include the items that are new
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aaronpk could also make sense for a list of h-entryes
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aaronpk or a list of comments in an h-entry
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cweiske if the subscriber supports h-entry
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aaronpk p.s. did you see my writeup?
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aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub
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cweiske no
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cweiske is reading now
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aaronpk it's a subset of the PuSH 0.4 spec that deals specifically with HTML and microformats feeds
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aaronpk and attempts to clarify all the ambiguous parts of 0.4
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cweiske ambiguous is only how publishers notify the hub
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aaronpk the payload is ambiguous too
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cweiske the hub I'm writing ("phubb" :)) will be notified by my git hooks
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aaronpk nice
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cweiske but having a standard way for http notifications would be fine, too
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KevinMarks_ Irony: POSSE to medium means my post on sites preferring images gets its image as a preview on twitter https://twitter.com/inmediaref/status/573419916122050560
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@inmediaref “Twitter, Facebook, Google+ please provide equal space for HTML. And for…” —@kevinmarks https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/facebook-twitter-and-google-plus-shun-html-causing-the-infographic-plague-5eaac57a7d4e?source=tw-e3e2bc9db32b-1425548926392#8df1--share-28-159 (twitter.com/_/status/573419916122050560)
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KevinMarks_ Is there a term for retro POSSE? It's like linkslapping but with fat pings
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bret elf-pavlik: https://github.com/bcomnes/mf2-to-form-urlencoded/blob/master/index.js
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aaronpk cweiske: yeah I think the more that is well-defined the better, makes things easier to implement
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bret elf-pavlik: are you familiar with node?
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aaronpk back on indieauth... now I'm reconsidering content negotiation
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elf-pavlik bret, yes i mostly use JS nowadays :)
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elf-pavlik got pretty rusty with ruby because of that :S
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aaronpk it's only the authorization server that needs to support it, and only for one method
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aaronpk and generating a form-encoded response is pretty much as easy as generating a JSON response
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aaronpk so would it really be that bad to let clients choose?
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elf-pavlik nope :)
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bret ahh damn the form encoder I used is doing something funny
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elf-pavlik ration of IndieAuth clients to IndieAuth servers?
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aaronpk right
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elf-pavlik s/ration/ration/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: ration of IndieAuth clients to IndieAuth servers?
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aaronpk likely there will be far more clients than authorization servers
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elf-pavlik s/ration/ratio/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: s/ratio/ratio/
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aaronpk and far more users than servers
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cweiske if you want to be total indie you have to host your own indieauth server
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk but "be total indie" is not necessarily the goal of everyone
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elf-pavlik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle not sure if fits here...
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aaronpk and at any point anyone can switch authorization servers from indieauth.com to their own, and nobody else needs to know
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aaronpk so that's pretty indie
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bret elf-pavlik: the form encoder is working great actually... the %5B%5D just looks funny. thats the [] next to the keys that tell it which array to go into
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bret elf-pavlik: is that script what you were looking for?
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elf-pavlik bret, please give me few minutes... will take a break from Social IG ACTION-4 and check it now
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bret k no rush
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cweiske aaronpk, another pubsub question: 5.2. Subscription Validation says "Subscriptions MAY be validated" but a sentence later it's "hub MUST perform the verification of intent"
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cweiske I originally thought that VoI is the validation
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cweiske but it reads as validation is something different
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aaronpk huh yeah that is confusing
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i feel like we need an alternative to indieauth.com just so people get the difference between indieauth and.... what is the actual auth mechanism called? rel-me-auth?
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: agreed completely
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aaronpk someone go make one please
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elf-pavlik fkooman, will deoply one soon
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aaronpk i'm almost done with my reply
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ben_thatmustbeme actually i was tempted to do that and add in a warning if you are using it to log in when it is not your actual auth provider
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elf-pavlik bret, what about h=entry as in http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Form-encoded_Microformats_Representation
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ben_thatmustbeme so to warn you are using a sight that isn't actually polling your site for the auth provider, they just hard coded that provider
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elf-pavlik tried $ node index.js http://bret.io/2015/02/23/let-me-tell-you-abou/
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented 'This is a reply to fkooman's proposed changes to IndieAuth protocol. Optional client_id Currently the protocol expects the use of the...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-x-app (https://aaronparecki.com/articles/2015/03/05/1/re-proposed-changes-to-indieauth-protocol)
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aaronpk there you go
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elf-pavlik bret, micropub also doesn't use *properties*
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aaronpk properties?
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++
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bret elf-pavlik: oops, looks like I didnt dig deep enough into the mf2 parsed object
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Loqi aaronpk has 727 karma
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elf-pavlik I tried https://github.com/bcomnes/mf2-to-form-urlencoded
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elf-pavlik can you try to convert html mf into example in http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Form-encoded_Microformats_Representation ?
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elf-pavlik and get it exactly as micropub expects it?
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bret elf-pavlik: yeah, looks like it just pulls out type: "h-entry"
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elf-pavlik i guess code exists to get microformat json from such micropub request parameters?
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bret so a parsed mf2 object doesn't work as a micropub object
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bret you would have to transform it a bit
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elf-pavlik bret, you may need to fiddle with this object before converting to form-encede
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bret definately,
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elf-pavlik any links to code converting micropub form-encoded microformats to microformats json ?
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bret elf-pavlik: any gitpub endpoint would have to make that transform
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elf-pavlik link to the source?
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bret usually it goes micropub post (form encoded) -> language object -> site storage format (whatever you want) -> html
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aaronpk there is very little reason to go from micropub -> microformats json
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bret i have my endpoint but its not the best example right now
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aaronpk microformats json is actually not used very often at all, because the microformats parsers turn the html into native data structures
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub/blob/master/lib/stagePost.js#L26
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aaronpk it's just a convenient way to display the parsed microformats data structure when talking about it
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, if you render html using template (e.g. handlebar) and pass it microformats json
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bret elf-pavlik: heh yeah that was my weekend working on a transform
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: do you know of anyone who actualyl does that right now?
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elf-pavlik bret, what about params which you didn't expect? just droping them?
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elf-pavlik I do it with JSON-LD -> RDFa https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/views/profile.hbs
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bret elf-pavlik: yeah, for now.
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bret i gtg riight now bbl
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elf-pavlik will need to add something to 'sprincle' mf on top of RDFa ...
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elf-pavlik bret, ciao o/
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bret o
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aaronpk cweiske: oh I think this is leaving more un-specified things open for hubs
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aaronpk just re-read it again and it clicked
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aaronpk "Subscriptions MAY be validated by the Hubs who may require more details to accept or refuse a subscription"
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elf-pavlik soon will switch to something like in http://viejs.org/examples/todo/
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aaronpk i think it's saying that hubs can do whatever they want to validate subscriptions, like having their own access controls or rate limits or usage limits
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aaronpk so you could make a hub that lets people subscribe to 4 topics for free, but requires $$ to subscribe to more
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cweiske yes
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elf-pavlik i understand that among mf html, mf json and mf form-encoded only mf html->mf json has defined algorithm
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aaronpk cweiske: does that answer it?
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cweiske yes
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aaronpk cool. that was confusing.
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bret elf-pavlik: a useful tool: http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/ when playing mf2-> json before I go
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cweiske.de edited /h-x-app (+161) "/* Aaron Parecki */" (view diff)
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elf-pavlik bret, thx!
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kylewm.com edited /IndieAuth (+280) "/* Why is the IndieAuth verification response form-encoded instead of JSON */ objection withdrawn" (view diff)
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kylewm elf-pavlik^
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elf-pavlik kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 130 karma
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kylewm really interesting to read fkooman's proposal and aaronpk's response.
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benwerd I feel bad being commercial here, but FYI: https://withknown.com/pro/ is completely live. Indie Web capable, does IndieAuth and Micropub, has strong connections to brid.gy.
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kylewm benwerd++ congrats on launching known pro!
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Loqi benwerd has 62 karma
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aaronpk Nothing wrong with being "commercial"! Congrats!
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@benwerd Educators and students get a full 50% off Known Pro: https://withknown.com/education/ #domainofonesown #indieweb #edtech (twitter.com/_/status/573577320532865024)
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@nitot RT @benwerd: Educators and students get a full 50% off Known Pro: https://withknown.com/education/ #domainofonesown #indieweb #edtech (twitter.com/_/status/573577515190632448)
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benwerd aaronpk: Thank you!
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GWG benwerd: If I was interested in a hosted solution right now, I would strongly consider yours.
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benwerd GWG: Thank you :)
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GWG benwerd: Well, I like the product.
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@MarkMorvant RT @benwerd: Educators and students get a full 50% off Known Pro: https://withknown.com/education/ #domainofonesown #indieweb #edtech (twitter.com/_/status/573578594775003137)
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benwerd Apparenty I need some education of my own. It's 40%.
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benwerd de-syndicates ...
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ben_thatmustbeme phht, math, who needs thats? :P
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rascul maths is hard
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tjgillies indieauth with a sms number in TXT record could trigger an sms auth flow
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elf-pavlik benwerd++ congratulations!
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tjgillies that seems rather straight forward
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Loqi benwerd has 63 karma
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tjgillies elf-pavlik: what did I miss?
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GWG !tell snarfed I will be deploying several alternate CSS options in your name
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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elf-pavlik tjgillies, https://withknown.com/pro/
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tjgillies nice
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tjgillies benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 64 karma
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elf-pavlik benwerd, i understand that you keep *all* the codebase open source and just charge people who don't want to deploy it themselves or use https://indiehosters.net service?
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gRegor` You can get a free .withknown.com subdomain. Pro has additional features though.
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gRegor` So there's a free version people don't have to deploy themselves
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benwerd elf-pavlik: The whole codebase is indeed open source. The sad exception will be Google+ Pages integration, which we legally can't open.
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bret benwerd: how come?
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aaronpk oh wow
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benwerd bret: they made us sign an NDA for the API
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bret lol oh wow
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bret thats lame
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tjgillies Google: "the open source company"
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donpdonp indieauth feature suggestion, from showing the login process to a friend with a domain name but no interest in hosting a webserver, which seems reasonable.
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donpdonp support a DNS 'CERT' record to get a GPG key, then proceed as usual with the gnupg key option. (http://www.initd.net/2010/12/adding-gpg-public-keys-to-your-dns.html)
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tjgillies gpg--
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Loqi gpg has -1 karma
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tjgillies sms++
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Loqi sms has 1 karma
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bret donpdonp: what about just having them use a tumblr gh-pages or neocitites?
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tjgillies bret: you mean point domain at it?
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bret ya
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tjgillies bret++
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Loqi bret has 53 karma
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tjgillies the think the number of people who would buy a domain and use it for indie auth but have no content is extremely small
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bret then they could have their gpg key on their domain and humans can read it too
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donpdonp bret: that would be lighter weight than full hosting, i agree
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donpdonp that creates a fairly major dependency
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donpdonp ie my auth is dependent on neocities being available
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tjgillies how often does neocities go down?
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donpdonp or blocked from china
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donpdonp or shutdown in an fbi raid
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donpdonp or simply added lookup time for the neocities dns and http content xfer
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tjgillies rational points
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tjgillies txt-record-auth++
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Loqi txt-record-auth has 1 karma
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snarfed so aaronpk tantek_ kylewm etc, i'm thinking about the rsvp markup and presentation discussion yesterday…and i'm wondering how much of it applies to likes and reposts too
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 24 minutes ago: I will be deploying several alternate CSS options in your name
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snarfed i'm guessing some at least, if not all
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snarfed i'll follow up in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/371 and post bridgy's current markup there, we can see
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snarfed GWG: interesting! …out of curiosity, why? dequeueing your stylesheet and adding a few rules in mine worked for me
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@xtof_fr @ndebock : #indiewebcamp Germany se tiendra á Düsseldorf les 9 et 10 mai. Participants : https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List .. http://xtof.withknown.com/2015/ndebock-indiewebcamp-germany-se-tiendra-dsseldorf-les-9-et-10 (twitter.com/_/status/573588762954858496)
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Loqi [mention] Christophe Ducamp commented '@ndebock : #indiewebcamp Germany se tiendra á Düsseldorf les 9 et 10 mai. Participants : https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List ...' on a post https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List (http://xtof.withknown.com/2015/ndebock-indiewebcamp-germany-se-tiendra-dsseldorf-les-9-et-10)
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Loqi [mention] Christophe Ducamp commented '@ndebock : #indiewebcamp Germany se tiendra á Düsseldorf les 9 et 10 mai. Participants : https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List ...' on a post https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List (http://xtof.withknown.com/2015/ndebock-indiewebcamp-germany-se-tiendra-dsseldorf-les-9-et-10)
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snarfed i expectusers who want to roll their own style will be capable of setting it up, like i did
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elf-pavlik benwerd, did you document this G+ API issue on a wiki?
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benwerd elg-pavlik: No, I didn't, and I can't provide too much detail, unfortunately.
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elf-pavlik even detais about the conditions of using it not funtioning of the API itself?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: elf-pavlik it's well known though. see /Google+
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Loqi slack/snarfed: <http://WordPress.com|WordPress.com> is another example user
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Loqi slack/snarfed: not a surprise
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elf-pavlik http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+#API doesn't say anything about signing NDA ...
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GWG snarfed: I use SASS. I can roll several style sheets for people to hook onto that are variants. I wanted to do a B&W one anyway.
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GWG snarfed: So it wouldn't be any work to maintain.
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snarfed GWG: ok!
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snarfed elf-pavlik: http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+#POSSE "Make a business relationship with Google so you can use a private/partner API…"
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GWG snarfed: Besides, I doubt you are the only one who prefers no color in the icons
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snarfed you're right that it doesn't say the word NDA explicitly. feel free to add that!
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /Google_Plus (+103) "/* Activities */ note about signing NDA" (view diff)
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /Google_Plus (+0) "/* API */" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /Google_Plus (+35) "the normal G+ API doesn't require an NDA, just the writable Pages API" (view diff)
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kylewm am i interpreting it correctly that Pages API would not give me write access to my user stream?
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snarfed kylewm: right
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snarfed i think best practice right now for g+ posse is manual, by popping up their sharebox with everything pre-populated so the user only has to click "post"
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@kevinmarks “Known Pro lets you connect to an infinite number of social media profiles.” http://stream.withknown.com/2015/introducing-known-pro-the-best-way-to-reach-your-audience #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573598285622996992)
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@ken_bauer RT @kevinmarks: “Known Pro lets you connect to an infinite number of social media profiles.” http://stream.withknown.com/2015/introducing-known-pro-the-best-way-to-reach-your-audience #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573599134583779329)
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@aral RT @kevinmarks: “Known Pro lets you connect to an infinite number of social media profiles.” http://stream.withknown.com/2015/introducing-known-pro-the-best-way-to-reach-your-audience #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573599146927636480)
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bret also.. g+ api stuff aside.. CONGRATS benwerd AND ERIN on known pro
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benwerd bret: Thank you!
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bret donpdonp, i was just trying to address the "dont wanna futz with a webhost" part :p
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snarfed bret, definitely
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snarfed benwerd++
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snarfed erinjo++
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Loqi benwerd has 65 karma
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snarfed congrats!~
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Loqi erinjo has 6 karma
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benwerd Thank you!
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tantek.com edited /event (+19) "adjust icon to work with toc" (view diff)
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@davidpeach1 I have finally got around to starting to build my new website. #indieweb #laravel (twitter.com/_/status/573606638613061632)
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, preview button did not seem to like me today
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ben_thatmustbeme in bridgy
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ben_thatmustbeme was getting ' Error: 400 Bad Request The server could not comply with the request since it is either malformed or otherwise incorrect. Missing required parameter: source_key Missing required parameter: source_key' when trying to preview post of 'https://ben.thatmustbe.me/photo/2015/3/5/2/'
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ben_thatmustbeme but webmention sending worked
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: sorry. try shift-refreshing your user page
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't even need that, just a refresh seems to have done it
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snarfed elf-pavlik: you'll probably want to weigh in on https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/issues/27#issuecomment-77465810
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@Eliservescent RT @kevinmarks: “Known Pro lets you connect to an infinite number of social media profiles.” http://stream.withknown.com/2015/introducing-known-pro-the-best-way-to-reach-your-audience #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/573615709550436353)
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elf-pavlik snarfed, aaronpk https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/issues/27#issuecomment-77469418
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elf-pavlik bret, from https://www.npmjs.com/package/form-urlencoded
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elf-pavlik "The format is not well defined. Serialising complex data, such as a javascript object, is beyond the specification."
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elf-pavlik http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#url-encoded-form-data
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KevinMarks it's well defined for key/values , not for nesting