#indiewebcamp 2015-03-13

2015-03-13 UTC
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acegiak chromium has a separate process for each tab and iframe and it enrages me
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gRegor` acegiak: Chrome's task manager / "stats for nerds" might be what you want, though not as convenient as 'top'
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acegiak gRegor`: Stats for nerds doesn't display in conky :P
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pwcc Has something changed in WordPress webmention plugins, I'm now getting "X replied to this on twitter" https://peterwilson.cc/status1906/
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pwcc Perfectly possible I've broken something
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acegiak.net edited /preferred_gender_pronoun (+68) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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pwcc In the dashboard, the text is showing correctly.
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acegiak.net created /Template:acegiak (+35) "Created page with "[[user:acegiak.net|Ashton McAllan]]"" (view diff)
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pwcc Old comments are displaying correctly on the front end: https://peterwilson.cc/status1807/
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acegiak pwcc which version of the plugin are you running?
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pwcc acegiak: Webmentions 2.4.0-beta || Webmentions for comments 1.0.0 || Semantic linkbacks 3.0.5
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GWG It looks good to me.
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GWG pwcc: You might want to go to stable
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GWG Oh, wait...I do know the problem
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GWG I reported it to pfefferle
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pwcc I'm poking around comment_text_add_cite in semantic linkbacks to see if i can figure it out,
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GWG pwcc: It isn't that
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pwcc GWG: oh cool.
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GWG pwcc: I know what it is
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GWG pfefferle tested with 4.2 beta, where a patch has been deployed. We're both running, I assume, 4.1.1
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pwcc So in webmentions?
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GWG When a webmention is noted as a reply, Semantic Linkbacks changes the comment type from webmention to "" . A blank type is a comment.
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GWG That's what broke
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/blob/master/semantic-linkbacks.php#L131
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GWG He used to do it at the database level
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GWG Because it was fixed...
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GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/changeset/31171
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pwcc GWG: I think I see. So should I comment out the condition starting on L131?
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pwcc GWG: or code 132 to "comment"
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GWG Pwcc, no.
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GWG That condition is fine.
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GWG It's a core issue
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pwcc GWG, oh I got you.
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GWG The solution is for pfefferle to either revert till 4.2 is released or put in a check
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GWG 4.2 is due next month
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pwcc Speaking of which, 4.2 beta 1 was released a couple of hours ago.
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GWG pwcc: Beta testing is an alternative solution
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GWG pwcc: Or manually revert this change..
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/commit/c363691d22abad0367b9f28dbc9b395ffd8b3f7d#diff-046d4632e7cce0b44f8c9a9a94458de6L129
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pwcc GWG: appreciate the help - knowing what's going on is 90% of it
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pwcc GWG: yeah, just saw that - might hack it when I relaunch this weekend. Eitehr WP core or the plugin. or both
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GWG global $wp_version; if (version_compare($wp_version, '4.2', '>=')) { // version is 2.7 or higher }
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GWG Just put a version check in there. I might do it and submit a PR
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pwcc thinks wistfully that hacking WP core would be more fun but knows he will do it the more robust way
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pwcc GWG: just changed the comment types in the DB - worked a charm - thank you
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tantek benwerd: "ship it or shut it" is growing on me
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 1 day, 7 hours ago: happy birthday tantek!
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 1 day, 6 hours ago: ah thanks. she hasn't imported those yet (they had to be done manually) and I think you're getting redirected based on fancy wordpress slug matching magic
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 3/11 at 7:27pm: will anyone have some IWC sticker suppy for IWC Cambridge? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-11/line/1426127259363
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tantek !tell snarfed thank you for the birthday wishes!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell aaronpk can you bring packs of IWC stickers to Cambridge? I'm near out!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk said he would bring stickers
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tantek yay!
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Loqi giggles
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@benwerd @jeresig I buy the #indieweb solution to this: own your own site, if you can. Avoid content silos, because those often die away. (twitter.com/_/status/576202200239632384)
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@t “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576203586859732992)
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@benwerd RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576203690052206592)
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@BillSeitz RT @benwerd: @jeresig I buy the #indieweb solution to this: own your own site, if you can. Avoid content silos, because those often die awa… (twitter.com/_/status/576204261626785792)
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tantek is anyone posting quote posts and *splitting* them just so they POSSE better? E.g. what I just did with: https://twitter.com/t/status/576203586859732992
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@t “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576203586859732992)
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tantek compare with current original post: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society
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tantek deliberately authored that way because I know my auto-ellipser will be smart enough to break at the "Continued: " and put a permalink to the original
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tantek but now I'm considering updating my original quotation post to reconstitute the quote into a single block, as I would have authored it if POSSEing were no consideration.
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tantek and then the question becomes, is there some way for my POSSE code to *automatically* shorten a quote like that, with a "Continued: " for the sake of higher fidelity POSSEing (rather than just dumb-ish truncation/ellipsing in the middle of the longer quote)
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@kevinmarks RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576207116857298944)
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tantek so Google Code is shutting down. Good thing archive.org ignores robots.txt https://code.google.com/robots.txt
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KevinMarks I did a truncator like that before but peoepl don't always realise that there is more without he ellipsis cue
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KevinMarks the way to mark it up is with an h-summary around the first bit
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pwcc tantek: I'd refactor the post. I've set up my site so I can post different text to the silo if needs be.
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tantek except that's extra authoring work
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tantek the point here is to make it *less* work for the author
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tantek without a p-summary
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tantek I'm thinking of trying to automate a quotation POSSEier for Twitter - e.g. having it automatically excerpt from *inside* what's being quoted, leaving enough room for 1. attribution, 2. hashtag(s), 3. a "Continued:" link to the original quotation post with the whole thing
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KevinMarks nice
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KevinMarks talking about this problme wiht known as well
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pwcc tantek: Y. If I can use the same text I do, which is most of the time.
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KevinMarks as this post: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/ive-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe-react-ships-on-1
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tantek KevinMarks: YES. That's exactly my point.
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KevinMarks I messed up as I forgot that the image eats a link
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tantek KevinMarks - my CASSIS code knows to count images as links
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KevinMarks so the https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/576152389842931712 got munged
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@kevinmarks I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. React ships on fire off the backbone of Midori… (inspired ... https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/576152389842931712/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/576152389842931712)
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tantek yeah
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@kirinqueen RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576208539024109568)
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KevinMarks tantek, did you see this? http://updates.html5rocks.com/2015/03/increasing-engagement-with-app-install-banners-in-chrome-for-android#disqus_thread
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KevinMarks er the post, not the thread
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tantek KevinMarks: aaronpk somewhat does this with his POSSE notes - he puts hashtags automatically at the end of the POSSE copy, and counts them first when ellipsing the rest of the content that precedes the hashtags
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tantek KevinMarks: good because: Disqus - js;dr ;)
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tantek "Please enable JavaScript to view the comments powered by Disqus." :)
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KevinMarks well, that's true fro webmentions on my site...
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tantek KevinMarks: yeah, web apps manifest overkill - though better than a JS lib hack
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tantek yeah this is good work
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KevinMarks interesting social engineering - they only show it with https and nudge towards offline
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tantek that's not social engineering, that's just good incentivizing (is that a word?)
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KevinMarks fair point
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KevinMarks also https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/576117401260986368
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@kevinmarks @paul_irish why only png? Surely SVG would be better given varying device dpi. (twitter.com/_/status/576117401260986368)
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tantek also only show it with https is good *user-centric* "trust" design
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KevinMarks see thread
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tantek I should also extract a bunch of my auto-POSSEing code into small CASSIS functions
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Loqi yea
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KevinMarks yes
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acegiak benwerd_: did you just get a webmention from me?
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benwerd_ not that I can see
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acegiak grrr. hmmm
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GWG ac
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GWG acegiak: I thought we both fixed it
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GWG acegiak: I have more enhancements planned though
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acegiak GWG: I'm an idiot is the problem
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acegiak expect a pull shortly
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GWG ?
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GWG What was the issue?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "issue" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=issue&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-12%2Fline%2F1426214925284
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GWG acegiak: We both forgot the [0]
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GWG Didn't we?
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acegiak yearp
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GWG Don't bother with the PR
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GWG I'll do it
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acegiak ok
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GWG That should do until I make the whole thing a for loop
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acegiak benwerd_: did that work?
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benwerd_ I didn't get a notification, anyway - what are you webmentioning?
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GWG acegiak: What we need is a button to send a webmention
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acegiak http://acegiak.net/2015/03/13/ben-werdmuller-being-okay-with-detailed-data-collection-is-a-position-of-privilege-not-everyone-is-lucky-enough-to-be-able-to-shrug-it-off/
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benwerd Sorry, vanished too early. Got it (and great reply) - but no notification at my end.
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benwerd I need to go offline but I can investigate later.
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@ayirpelle RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576216072631689216)
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GWG Does anyone use p-artist?
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, need to figure out a good name for how many previous log entries to show
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ben_thatmustbeme going with np-before for a log searching, but
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ben_thatmustbeme np-count
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't fit, i feel like there is a word that is excaping me
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ben_thatmustbeme np? where did i get that, ls-before and ls-limit?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm tired
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone who has no clue what i'm talking about, i'm working on logstore
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@rianmurnen RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576223383408398336)
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@atoker @benwerd @jeresig #indieweb sites often die away too, in fact they're more likely to drop off the web once the maintainer has lost interest. (twitter.com/_/status/576224419091214337)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress_Data (+147) "/* Post Kinds Plugin */" (view diff)
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@macfarlandian RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576232672315338753)
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@Eliservescent @kevinmarks but I'm working on it! Sorry I couldn't make #indieweb yesterday but maybe next time you and/or @t can educate me. (twitter.com/_/status/576242396209364995)
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@johnduineveld RT @zutfen: http://www.zutfen.com/?p=3111 My amazing experience building an encrypted @ownCloud 8 based personal cloud. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/576250466272702464)
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colintedford.com edited /GitHub (+0) "move TOC out of "Github Pages" section" (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /GitHub (+407) "/* Porting to the IndieWeb */ Feed of others' activity on your repos for potential PESOS" (view diff)
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peterwilson.cc edited /Gitorious (+97) "Note close date" (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /GitHub (+523) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ my modest manual methods" (view diff)
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@usethetics RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576279064329261056)
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@The1Shez Heres some music to kick things off https://soundcloud.com/blackavar1/mia #FridayThe13th #indieweb #rednoseday #JasonVoorhees (twitter.com/_/status/576281045882023936)
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@samiryusf RT @benwerd: @jeresig I buy the #indieweb solution to this: own your own site, if you can. Avoid content silos, because those often die awa… (twitter.com/_/status/576313634231570432)
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fkooman elf-pavlik: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=wwelves.org
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elf-pavlik fkooman++
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Loqi fkooman has 4 karma
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fkooman elf-pavlik: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Intermediate_compatibility_.28default
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elf-pavlik thx!
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petermolnar good morning, indieweb
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elf-pavlik moin
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petermolnar GWG, pfefferle are you around?
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@jordan_web RT @kevinmarks: Known as a PHP dev framework is an intersting idea http://stream.withknown.com/2015/build-awesome-php-web-applications-using-known-as-a-framework #indieweb @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/576339898078220288)
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@elfpavlik @nitrokey come to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany and let's hack with @fkooman on https://indiecert.net/welcome support for #SmartCards! #IndieWeb #WebID (twitter.com/_/status/576341207489597441)
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Loqi [bridgy] Pierre favorited a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/576341207489597441)
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, hi o/ does Loqi keep track if sender of IRC message authenticated with the server? http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-13/line/1426245704736
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme, ^
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress_Plugins (+144) "adding mention of work in progress generic backfeed plugin" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme begins to look at implementing this in thawr
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@mapkyca @atoker @benwerd @jeresig #indieweb Kind of agree, but at least with self owned the damage is compartmentalised. .. https://mapkyca.com/2015/atoker-benwerd-jeresig-indieweb-kind-of-agree-but-at-least (twitter.com/_/status/576355712911179776)
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@mapkyca @atoker @benwerd @jeresig #indieweb I'll add that preserving digital culture is a hard problem - sites go, formats become unreadable, etc.. (twitter.com/_/status/576356044185665536)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, node-irc library doesn't support it either
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik, it looks like most APIs don't support it either
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ben_thatmustbeme basically they believe the easiest, and sanest way to do this is to just use chanserv to give voice to those you wish to display authenticity
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@pierreozoux @JulienGrimal Post it from your own website then :) http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/576358272636227584)
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GWG petermolnar: Were you looking for me?
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petermolnar no, unfortunately I was not, but I need some eyes and WP knowledge to test this: https://github.com/petermolnar/keyring-reactions-importer
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petermolnar someone with interest in this
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petermolnar but I'm still working on some more well-known silo implementations
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petermolnar dfq I read "Were you looking for me" as "were you working for me"?
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petermolnar yes, I was looking for you
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GWG petermolnar: My Internet has been down for nearly 9 hours. I'll see if I can have a look when it comes back.
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petermolnar this is absolutely not urgent
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petermolnar short story: X worker for a silo collects all the relevant posts - relevant is determined it there is a matching line entry in syndicated_urls meta field
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GWG I know. Just didn't want to deal with a net outage on my day off. I find it hard to look at code on my phone
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petermolnar after this either from wp cron or manually, in batches, it imports every response (silo specific, comments, favs, etc) as comments as matching comment type ( favorite, comment, etc )
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petermolnar the problems are: speed, memory usage, number of api calls
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petermolnar and those I have no idea how to reduce
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@cstanhope RT @t: “amplifications of lesser heard voices are vital to a free society.” — @acegiak #indiewebcamp. Continued: http://tantek.com/2015/071/t1/amplifications-lesser-heard-voices-vital-society (twitter.com/_/status/576364158997794816)
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@orco_universe @CaptainKurtis hi : https://elliottucker.net/setting-up-known-with-nginx-indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/576365462642147328)
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: no he does not, in practice we haven't had a need for that
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 6 minutes ago: can you bring packs of IWC stickers to Cambridge? I'm near out! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-12/line/1426211909186
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aaronpk i started working on monocle this morning. i'm hoping to make a bunch of progress on the plane this afternoon
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cweiske fkooman - you said the token parameter is different when using indieauth.com as auth server. is that really so?
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cweiske or rather has a different name
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought he had figured that out, something about it being a legacy support issue
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cweiske so the parameter used by indieauth.com is the legacy one and will be the future one because of BC?
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aaronpk The "token" one is legacy
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aaronpk If you include a client id like you should then you'll always get a code
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@pierreozoux Google Code ferme ses portes ? Nous, on les ouvre. http://framablog.org/2015/03/13/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre/ #ownyourdata https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre-20150313google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre (twitter.com/_/status/576401542066077696)
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aaronpk If you get "token" it's because you're using IndieAuth.com as a shortcut for development, not becAuse you're using it as a user delegating to it
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cweiske ok
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aaronpk IndieAuth.com/developers describes using the server from the POV of a developer
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aaronpk I wonder how I can better clarify the two roles IndieAuth.com plays
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@Andre0Ani RT @pierreozoux: Google Code ferme ses portes ? Nous, on les ouvre. http://framablog.org/2015/03/13/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre/ #ownyourdata https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre-20150313google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre (twitter.com/_/status/576402725396676609)
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aaronpk Maybe authorization vs authentication but I think a lot of people glaze over when they see that
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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@Aniomque RT @pierreozoux: Google Code ferme ses portes ? Nous, on les ouvre. http://framablog.org/2015/03/13/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre/ #ownyourdata https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre-20150313google-code-ferme-ses-portes-nous-on-les-ouvre (twitter.com/_/status/576405512914354177)
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@camcavers RT @doriantaylor: #indieweb folks I wouldn't mind getting some thoughts on this: http://doriantaylor.com/the-hundred-year-infrastructure (@kevinmarks, @t?) (twitter.com/_/status/576406348432171008)
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fkooman aaronpk: maybe a complete spec document for (distributed) IndieAuth would help a bit at least :-)
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aaronpk yes yes that would be a good start
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ben_thatmustbeme i do want to work out a way of direct server-server auth and comms that doesn't open things up to the security issues fkooman pointed out
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aaronpk oh yeah i didn't follow that
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aaronpk is it written up somewhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme only in the logs as far as I know. fkooman, did you write it up somewhere?
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fkooman ben_thatmustbeme: that was mostly the CSRF right?
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fkooman https://indiewebcamp.com/CSRF
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aaronparecki.com edited /CSRF (+24) "add to indieauth category" (view diff)
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aaronpk what does CSRF have to do with server-to-server auth?
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fkooman hmm what is server-to-server auth?
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ben_thatmustbeme our setup for server-to-server is what led me to being CSRF vuln
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ben_thatmustbeme I have a hard time keeping it all in my head
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aaronpk yes maybe we should just hold off on this until we solidify the first bit
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ben_thatmustbeme whcih "first bit"
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ben_thatmustbeme just to be clear?
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aaronpk regular user auth
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure that if you trust your authorization server (which you obviously do since you delegated to it) then you could trust it to generate auth codes on your behalf even if you are not in front of the keyboard, which can be used for server-server auth
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fkooman oh with server-to-server auth you mean authorization
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aaronpk actually now i don't remember. ben_thatmustbeme what was the server-server case again?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, we were creating auth tokens between our servers that would auth without any interaction to allow fetching of private messages.
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ben_thatmustbeme it got really complex... and we didn't have a whiteboard
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ben_thatmustbeme but In any case, I use state value as a checksum rather than a unique key
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ben_thatmustbeme so i don't store that the regquest to log in to my site actually came from my site, only that the call back gives me a code that will validate the whoever is in the 'me' param.
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ben_thatmustbeme which was what allowed you to just generate a code from your auth provider, send it to my site and thereby get me an auth token to pull data from your site
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GWG Good day all
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ben_thatmustbeme https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-15
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ben_thatmustbeme that was where we were working on it aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme hey GWG
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GWG My Internet has been down, so I took a walk to somewhere with wifi. So much for writing code..
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GWG I was going to see how close I could get to a check in or rsvp before next week
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aaronpk I'm gonna be the last one to publish Checkins aren't i
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ben_thatmustbeme that was it specifically http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-15/line/1408118099056
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aaronpk Ow my head
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, in the world? that seems highly unlikely
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aaronpk I wanna think about this later :-P
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Loqi nice
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ben_thatmustbeme i never got around to indie events. just not on my list of priorities really
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aaronpk I worked on a login flow this morning
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aaronpk For Monocle. Or for any site that wants login with optional micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme Monocle being your reader yes?
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GWG aaronpk: I don't go anywhere. You seem to
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: yes
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ben_thatmustbeme mm, that was another question I had actually
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ben_thatmustbeme when you login to monocle, for example, monocle will request post scope lets say
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ben_thatmustbeme how does it know if you approved that scope or not?
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ben_thatmustbeme i could have taken post out of the request
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aaronpk When it makes the request for an access token the response includes the list of scopes granted
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aaronpk Because the other thing that might happen is you grant it additional or custom scopes that it doesn't know about but that your site requires
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aaronpk I'm planning on adding an interface to IndieAuth.com, which will let you un-check requested scopes or add new ones
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aaronpk That's something not a lot of OAuth servers support right now, but more should
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ben_thatmustbeme gah, IRC's # convention is getting really annoying when its in the URL
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GWG I'm trying to figure out, if I can just decide that a WordPress page with geo data is a venue. That seems easier than creating a new type
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GWG !seen davidpeach
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GWG Isn't that the right command? I forget.
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kylewm what is !seen supposed to do?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "!seen supposed to do" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=%21seen+supposed+to+do&summary=prompted+by+kylewm+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-13%2Fline%2F1426272684716
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kylewm can it, Loqi
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GWG I thought it was supposed to indicate the last time someone was seen
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GWG Am I mixing up my chat bots?
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kylewm I haven't seen Loqi do that particular trick. that'd be a nice one though
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Loqi dude
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GWG Kylewm, I guess I was mixing up things
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GWG Kylewm, do you have a link to a good example of a venue?
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kylewm GWG: mine don't have microformats yet, is that what you're looking for?
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GWG kylewm: Purely design ideas
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kylewm https://kylewm.com/venues/mozilla-sf-san-francisco-california
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GWG kylewm: Thank you.
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ben_thatmustbeme yay, fixed logstore prev links
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Loqi yay!
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ben_thatmustbeme i can browse back through my IRC logs
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bret i got a firefox os flame phone yesterday.
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bret what should I do with it?
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi [bridgy] Nitrokey.com favorited a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/576341207489597441)
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@codebear @soypunk I would recommend joining the #indieweb crew over at http://indiewebcamp.com -- exactly what is being asked there /cc @lmorchard (twitter.com/_/status/576473071533600768)
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@codebear @soypunk the #indieweb folk hang out in IRC on freenode's #indiewebcamp channel (twitter.com/_/status/576473854253666304)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme been a pretty slow week this week
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KevinMarks if you want silo exampels of venues, try foursquare
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KevinMarks eg https://foursquare.com/v/the-creamery/49ba70ecf964a52063531fe3
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Loqi [mention] http://www.edugeekjournal.com/2015/03/13/structuring-the-initial-week-of-a-mooc-or-an-online-course/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Smallest_Federated_Wiki (pingback)
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@lmorchard @codebear @soypunk Yeah, for me, unfortunately, Twitter is still the practical state of the art. But, indieweb folks are doing good things (twitter.com/_/status/576480324466667520)
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KevinMarks gillmor ganging with Peter Schmidt
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@nobantu Countdown 2theEnd of RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #openID #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/576483163280531456)
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@iotattack Countdown 2theEnd of RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #openID #indieweb via noba… (twitter.com/_/status/576483587228332032)
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kylewm s/Schmidt/Schwartz
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@atomsoffice Countdown 2theEnd of RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #openID #indieweb via noba… (twitter.com/_/status/576484316974309376)
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@nobantu Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unConference (twitter.com/_/status/576484381780373504)
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@LScatorchia RT @nobantu: Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unC… (twitter.com/_/status/576484385341472768)
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@jonibrennan RT @nobantu: Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unC… (twitter.com/_/status/576484751386673152)
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KevinMarks indeed
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tantek just got done with lunch with benwerd
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@atomsoffice Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unConference Pr… (twitter.com/_/status/576485884398321664)
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@atomsoffice RT nobantu: Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unC… (twitter.com/_/status/576485885425905664)
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KevinMarks watches again
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aaronpk Wow those are some seriously spammy tweets
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aaronpk And they now fit the definition of Twitter abuse
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tantek !spammer atomsoffice
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Loqi Got it! There are now 19 spammers blacklisted
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@iotattack Countdown 2theEndof RegularTickets 4 #IIW XX: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xx-20-2015a-tickets-14097972415 #identity #privacy #VRM #CRM #IoT #UMA #indieweb #unConference Pr… (twitter.com/_/status/576487335979835392)
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tantek indieweb folks participating in next week's social web WG f2f, please add yourself if you have a personal site and/or client that supports micropub and you're available for a quick demo: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#demo-user-stories
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kylewm tantek: aaronpk: were you guys going to show something with Woodwind at the f2f? Is there a particular day I should be careful not to break it :)
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tantek kylewm I would except I don't have micropub support on my site :(
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tantek but yes - someone *with* micropub support on their site should demo woodwind as a client!
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kylewm I thought it was discussed for realtime pubsubhubbub updates
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tantek I have a feeling that might come up during Federation discussions
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tantek sorry, was focused on Social API discussions
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tantek kylewm: Woodwind is a micropub client right? could you add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Clients ?
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kylewm yes and will do
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aaronpk oh I'd better fix ownyourgram ssl today
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aaronpk Made some more progress on Monocle on the plane :-)
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+158) "/* Woodwind */" (view diff)
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aaronpk Hey so I was thinking about the problem of syndicating to IndieNews
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aaronpk Since obviously pre-constructing the IndieNews url has been challenging
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ben_thatmustbeme will show off his mobile app
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aaronpk And it struck me that it's actually more similar to a regular webmention than I originally realized
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ben_thatmustbeme need to review login to make sure it doesn't fail during demo
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+194) "/* Open Source */ add Flask-Micropub" (view diff)
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aaronpk If you send me a home page webmention your text in the link is probably my name
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bear kylewm - oh! you made it a Flask plugin!
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aaronpk My site *could* send a reply to your webmention saying "here is the url of your comment"
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aaronpk At which point this is exactly what is needed for IndieNews
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tantek since I last pointed out how many micropub implementations there were on the SocialWG wiki, we have increased rom 6 to 8 server implemetations, and 8 to *12* client implementations: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Candidates#Micropub_implementations
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aaronpk You'd send a webmention to news.indiewebcamp.com and it would create the post
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aaronpk Then in the response could be the IndieNews url and you could optionally update your syndication URL accordingly
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aaronpk And then submitting things to IndieNews becomes really easy since you just have to mention news.indiewebcamp.com in your post
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kylewm bear: yeah! my first flask plugin :)
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bear kylewm++ nice work - I'll compare it to the manual stuff I was doing and then switch over to it
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Loqi kylewm has 137 karma
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kylewm bear: that'd be awesome, let me know if anything is noticeably missing
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bear yep!
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kylewm particularly the CSRF bit is new to me
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bear that is handed by flask forms - you shouldn't have to do anything special
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bear (well, other than init the forms properly)
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bear but yea, I'll look at that this weekend
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kylewm I haven't ever used WTForms
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bear they are amazingly helpful
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kylewm i'll have to check them out
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ben_thatmustbeme i only have a few months (at most) to really get this worked out, I need to make a micropub client that works on my ios and android that can track diaper changes for 2 kids.... figure my girls will have every piece of data we collect saved to a private site for them
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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kylewm the micropub servers section says it is sorted by deployment date,but it is actually sorted alphabetically (except for adactio)
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kylewm wait, maybe just one of them is out of date order
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bear :)
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bear yea, just *using* flask-wtf you get CSRF
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aaronpk Did they get implemented in alphabetical order?
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bear so it is worth groking https://flask-wtf.readthedocs.org/en/latest/csrf.html
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why i actually changed my server app to be called postly, lol
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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aaronpk lol!
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ben_thatmustbeme no, Bear, it out of order
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bear ?
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+280) "/* Kyle Mahan */ add me" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+1) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ sort bear between adactio and wordpress" (view diff)
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bear :)
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tantek aaronpk - could you add yourself and the various micropub apps / sites you plan to demo at the f2f here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#demo-user-stories
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aaronpk Sure when I get home
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tantek sounds good!
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tantek from analyzing the API Candidates page, nothing other than micropub has anyone in the WG running anything on their own personal client/server site
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tantek except I know from inference that Evan's site supports pump.io
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aaronpk hmm should I add Monocle even though it's not finished yet? ;-)
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tantek aaronpk, what software is "finished"? ;)
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tantek s/software/site or service
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk, what site or service is "finished"? ;)
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aaronpk Haha k. Not even working yet
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tantek MVP
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aaronpk Yup getting there!
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aaronpk Are personal websites not a priority for the Social WG?
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aaronpk It seems like everyone is so focused on corporate social networks
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aaronpk Corporate meaning within a company
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Gues_____ @tantek I'm just reading http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub for the first time (ima noob). do you think that the accepted Social API solution/candidate should specify how to request/respond with JSON and not just formencoded? I do.
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tantek Gues - no. plumbing based requirements are out of scope.
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tantek bengo: no. plumbing based requirements are out of scope. This is why we have documented user stories for API Candidates to support, not acronyms.
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bengo I see. That makes sense for consensus building.
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tantek And for user-centric design!
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bengo Isn't a deliverable of the WG a Social API specification that I as an implementor could follow pretty specifically
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tantek can you rephrase that as a positive?
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bengo Yeah. I also just realized my understanding was wrong http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#deliverables
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bengo When I've seen "Social API", I always read 'web service api'
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bengo not 'client-side API that lets developers embed and format third party information such as social status updates inside Web applications'
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bengo my bad
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bengo Well wait... then it's very confusing why all the things on this list are web services? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Candidates
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bengo That's not client-side right?
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tantek micropub can and is used client-server or server-server
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tantek not sure what you mean be "not client-side"
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tantek then again I don't understand most of those API candidates anyway as they don't seem to be related to any citable real world uses of anything - very abstract
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tantek some of them appear to border on architecture astronomy
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kylewm maybe just me but that description of the Social API deliverable is confusing
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tantek kylewm: it used to be more confusing :)
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kylewm embed and format third party information inside web applications
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kylewm that doesn't sound like an api?
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tantek we had a bunch of follow-up clarification at the F2F last fall at TPAC / Santa Clara
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tantek about what should a social API generally cover
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kylewm oh good
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tantek then went (premature) to a long list of specific requirements (over engineered)
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tantek then backed off and proposed user stories instad of abstract API requirements
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tantek then voted on user stories
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kylewm bengo: so micropub is something you could as an implementor could follow pretty specifically right now
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kylewm and many people have already
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tantek and now we have a rough collation of user stories by how they were voted on: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
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bengo @kylewm I agree! I'll take a stab at it soon. Was just ruminating on whether there's some work to do to groom it further for the WG, where it seems like because the WG wants the candidate API to speak ActivityStreams2, there should be a AS/JSON-flavored spec-extension for MicroPub
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kylewm ok, why are people talking about CERN scientific data in the social wg?
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bengo @tantek FWIW when I'm talking about 'client-side API' I'm thinking of the types of stuff I work on e.g. http://livefyre.github.io/streamhub-sdk/#streams
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bengo or web apis that would make it easier to make things like http://codepen.io/gobengo/full/LqKmb
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bengo @tantek nice link to the voted user stories. I'll peruse that.
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tantek bengo - it's not clear that a Social API has to speak AS2
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tantek note that none of the user-stories require AS2
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tantek it may be that AS2 needs to be simplified to handle Social API requests
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bengo I see
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tantek AS2 is a WD. Everything in a WD is subject to change.
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bengo I was just going by the ostensible technical requirement "Use Activity Streams 2.0" https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Requirements#Technical
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bengo Word
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bengo I'll treat it as such
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bengo Thanks for the context.
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tantek bengo - aha that page needs to be updated
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tantek to note how those requirements have been superseded by the user-stories
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tantek bengo thanks for the heads-up about that out of date wiki page
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tantek I've added a Disclaimer: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Requirements#Disclaimer
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bengo Nice!, +1
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tantek bengo - really appreciate the close "new eyes" review of the wiki pages
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tantek both on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg (and inside) as well as anything on http://indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek keep asking good questions like that! :)
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tantek bengo++
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bengo :) Then I won't hold back as I spend more time around here
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Loqi bengo has 1 karma
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bengo yay!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek bengo, asking good questions is *really* appreciated by the community here
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tantek we try to document the answers one way or another, good or bad
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bear constant review by people who have no learned assumptions is the only way to keep the community new-person friendly
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tantek bear++
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Loqi bear has 57 karma
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bear so yea, bengo++
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tantek bear you have to do the ++ first
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bengo Word. I'll get to writing code soon.
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bear bengo++
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Loqi bengo has 2 karma
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bengo FWIW my background is a couple years now of building https://github.com/Livefyre/streamhub-sdk/releases
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bengo File issues if it inspires anything. Have done some AS-dependent stuff with https://github.com/gobengo/personalized-feed-stub
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bear tantek++ because having the senior folks support new folks asking probing questions helps reinforce that as a good community behaviour
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Loqi tantek has 163 karma
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bengo :)
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bengo https://github.com/gobengo/activity-mocks
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I believe the identity faking going on in socialwg IRC is perhaps a strong use-case for POSSEing to IRC with permashortlinks
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pdurbin This group likes federated stuff, I think. https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse says "Matrix is an ambitious new ecosystem for open federated Instant Messaging and VoIP" as I had mentioned to bear earlier at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/crimsonfu/2015-03-13
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bengo With a sufficiently complete indieweb, is IRC even necessary?
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bengo (not disagreeing)
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bear bengo, IMO IRC will always be necessary until own-your-site reaches 100%
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ben_thatmustbeme Ideally there would be some replacement to it.
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pdurbin What's wrong with IRC?
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bear IRC is the stepping stone to a indieweb identity federated chat environment
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ben_thatmustbeme At least something that allows you to login an your host name
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bengo I didn't say anything was wrong with it, just that the web may compete with it
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bear for me IRC stays until we get a curated feed federation with topic filtering
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bengo Agree
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tantek bengo - we may very well end up with web-based replacmenets for IRC. The challenges fall into two big categories IMO.
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tantek 1. design. UI of IRC clients is so simple and information dense that it is greatly superior for back/forth discussion as compared to anything even remotely similar, even Twitter @-replies
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tantek 2. latency. typical IRC clients have apparently "instant" latency (far less than 200ms), and there are no web-based posting / reading solutions that have that (yet)
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tantek those are the two big challenges if you want to replace IRC
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bengo Adding that to my notes
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tantek I've brought this up before but I'm not sure where to wiki it
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pdurbin But can we back up and ask why we would replace IRC in the first place?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: since you're actually working on replacing your use of IRC clients, are either of those itches for you?
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tantek and where would you document them, indiewebwise?
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tantek pdurbin - IRC is also a silo
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bengo @pdurbin, there are a lot more web developers than irc developers
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pdurbin It's that like saying the web is a silo?
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tantek pdurbin: it's the principle that everything you write/create you should own (ownyourdata), on your own domain, and anything in a "shared space" should be either peer-to-peer copies, or POSSE copies (e.g. to an IRC channel)
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tantek pdurbing - no, it is like saying *an IRC server* is a silo, just like *a* website itself is a silo
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bengo web developers don't want to learn protocols if they don't have to. If the Social WG also produces sufficient work to inspire chat servers, then web developers will have a choice of which protocol to learn. They'll choose the new one.
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pdurbin I can agree that an IRC server is a silo.
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tantek telling everyone, just go to Freenode #indiewebcamp, is not much different than saying, just go to https://www.facebook.com/indiewebcamp
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bear what I would love to see is an IRC server that allows for webmentions for my nick
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bear then I can POSSE to IRC like other places
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bear and would also have a feed endpoint for a channel
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tantek pdurbin, imagine if your own website was your UI to IRC conversations
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tantek both for posting, and reading
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tantek and everything you said had its own permalink on your own server
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bear right - that's why I was saying a feed api - so I could go to bear.im/topics/indieweb and see a stream from freenode/#indiewebcamp because that's how I curate that topic
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ben_thatmustbeme Tantek. Somewhat. My interest was more in direct messaging. But I realized that chat goes hand in hand with that. My interests for now are to start making the tools to store and recall the necessary info then just obscure the pipe. I don't care if it's irc or done other thing at that point
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tantek I agree with obscuring the pipe
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pdurbin tantek: that's not at all how I use IRC but I'm trying to imagine it.
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ben_thatmustbeme As far as doc. .. haven't updated my itches yet
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tantek pdurbin - right, it's also not at all how people in general today use the social web (which is by picking a silo first, then finding friends there)
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tantek which is precisely the user model we are shifting with POSSE
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tantek people using IRC today first go to a server, then a channel, then find people to talk to
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pdurbin Right. I'm on IRC because that's where the open source people are. Especially the freenode silo.
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tantek pdurbin - right, and in the indieweb perspective, that would be motivation to *POSSE* to the freenode silo
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pdurbin sounds spammy
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tantek same reason we choose to POSSE to silos - because our friends are there
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tantek pdurbin yes it is potentially spammy if abused
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tantek POSSE is also potentially spammy if done indiscriminately
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tantek but that's why a key aspect of POSSE is the recommendation to *only* POSSE to destinations where you *know* friends read you
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tantek as an attempt to mitigate that abuse
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pdurbin What is IRC?
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Loqi IRC is an abbreviation for Internet Relay Chat and is the primary discussion forum for the indiewebcamp community, in particular the #indiewebcamp channel on the irc.freenode.net server https://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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pdurbin tantek: if you can get it to work and not be spammy, more power to you.
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tantek.com edited /IRC (-1) "-" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - indeed, that's why I've spent *a lot* of time documenting How to POSSE, both on /POSSE and specifically https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter
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bengo Good social servers will have good solutions for the 'spammy' problems
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bengo e.g. restricting clients and using spam detection techniques
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pdurbin Seeing how people here POSSE to Twitter makes sense to me. I'm just trying to decide how well I think it would work for IRC. I'm a little skeptical.
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aaronpk we already see POSSE to IRC, with Loqi bringing in #indiewebcamp tweets
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk and webmentions of indiewebcamp.com
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aaronpk the only time it's spammy is when it's actually spam
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pdurbin I guess the way I think of it is that as long as my IRC logging bot is in the channel, I'm posting both to my own site ( http://irclog.greptilian.com ) and the channel itself. I feel like I'm done already. I own the data. :)
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aaronpk pdurbin: that's true for you, but not for everyone else in this channel
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pdurbin It's not even true for me in *this* channel. I don't log it. But I trust Loqi to log it. :)
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tantek pdurbin: your bot logging from IRC is PESOS, not POSSE ;)
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pdurbin tantek: for a split second I suppose it goes through a silo. Meh.
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pdurbin I'm practical about these things. :)
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tantek pdurbin, hence people are practical about using Instagram -> OwnYourGram -> personal site.
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tantek PESOS isn't all bad. It's just not as good as POSSE.
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pdurbin sure
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tantek the strongest argument I've heard for PESOS is using it for likes
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tantek per snarfed
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aaronpk I don't have PESOS likes set up for instagram yet and I've found myself no longer checking instagram because I know that if I see something I'll want to like it and then it won't be on my site
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aaronpk maayyybe that's a good thing to add to ownyourgram
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pdurbin If an IRC channel isn't logged, you're aren't even publishing anything. So it isn't PESOS.
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tantek what is ownyourlikes?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ownyourlikes" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ownyourlikes&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-13%2Fline%2F1426287780570
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tantek aaronpk: agreed on adding PESOS of likes (and heck, why not comments too) to ownyourgram
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pdurbin ... and it's interesting/weird to think that the moment I send *my* IRC logging bot into a channel it's suddenly considered "publishing" and hence PESOS. Hmm.
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pdurbin "publishing elsewhere" that is
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tantek pdurbin: the moment there is someone else in the channel and you say something, you are "publishing elsewhere"
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tantek when your bot enters and starts logging, then you are syndicating back to your own site.
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pdurbin Really? If I send an MMS to a few friends' phones is that publishing?
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tantek loosely speaking, that is one of the arguments that has been made
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tantek it's not *web* publishing
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tantek but it is publishing of a sort
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pdurbin I wouldn't call the MMS example publishing.
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tantek it's a private post ;)
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pdurbin And I think IRC is similar.
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KevinMarks so is the posting UI on https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today?beta POSSE, or only if we hosted ti ourselves?
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tantek the latter Kevinmarks
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KevinMarks the problem with pure IRC is no history
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bear if you send anything to someone else it's publishing - even if the audience is one and private
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snarfed delayed: re IG PESOS, you can do it for likes, but not really comments, since the API can't get comments by user
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message on 3/12 at 6:58pm: thank you for the birthday wishes! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-12/line/1426211889765
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snarfed more on PESOS ability for the four main silos: https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourresponses/#silo-api-details
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snarfed (and on the wiki of course)
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tantek KevinMarks - sure, re: IRC (vs web)
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tantek or certainly *less* history ;)
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KevinMarks is the web ui here within your 200ms criterion?
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tantek bear, even if you send something only to yourself (e.g. create a document), you are publishing to your future self.
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tantek KevinMarks: hah not even close
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tantek no that's not fair. I should say, close.
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aaronpk yeah i was gonna say hey it's close!
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aaronpk it's maybe 400ms or so
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KevinMarks I now feel link filming it and fraemstepping
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tantek let's see when I type something and press return.
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KevinMarks s/link/like/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: I now feel like filming it and fraemstepping
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tantek I'm seeing about 1.2s
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tantek (here @mozsf)
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tantek sometimes less
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tantek problem is - what I don't know is how long it takes for me to type something and have you all see it, vs. my client just "show it" as if it was already seen in the channel
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aaronpk try the web UI
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tantek aaronpk - good point that's the round trip test
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kyleweb trying the web ui
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KevinMarks aha, the webUI doesn't react well to a bad username
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tantek what is a bad username?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bad username" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bad+username&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-13%2Fline%2F1426288475754
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KevinMarks I tried _KevinMarks and now it is in a loop
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aaronpk the web chat at ?beta doesn't put it on the page itself, it waits for the regular streaming logs to show it on the page like all other messages
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tantek right, that's what I meant by good round trip test
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kyleweb I've noticed it takes Woodwind quite a bit longer to post a "realtime" update than the latency here
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kyleweb that may be where PuSH fat pings would help
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Kevin__Marks the delay is acceptable
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kyleweb I'd say the delay here is fine but definitely noticeable
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aaronpk there's been a ton of research into what delay is acceptable vs noticeable
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tantek indeed
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aaronpk dating way back to desktop app days
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kyleweb Doherty threshold is 400ms
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tantek feeling of "instant" is 200ms
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Kevin__Marks can it be 300ms?
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KevinMarks or more?
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kyleweb I think the 400ms number is like... any longer and you might get distracted between button pushes :)
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kyleweb /part
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aaronpk web client doesn't know about client commands
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kyleweb sorry about that, is there a good way to shut it down without this nick staying in the channel?
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KevinMarks 400ms is the ITU standard http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-G.114-200305-I!!PDF-E&type=items
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aaronpk it responds to several disconnect events and I just can't find the event that is run that is making them linger
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KevinMarks 200ms for voice to ear
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Loqi !calc 200ms for voice to ear
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kylewm oh nice that worked
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KevinMarks I get 13/30s for web to irc client
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kylewm this was published the month i was born! http://www.vm.ibm.com/devpages/jelliott/evrrt.html
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KevinMarks 35/30s for web to web
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Loqi !calc 35/30s for web to web
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aaronpk KevinMarks: did you just count frames of video?
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KevinMarks 37/30s for irc to web
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Loqi !calc 37/30s for irc to web
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KevinMarks yes
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aaronpk lol nice
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KevinMarks so error is ± 1/20
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KevinMarks er1/30
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tantek KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 93 karma
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KevinMarks nice thing about modern phones is you can do quick and dirty latency testing
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tantek another comparable metric, FB IM client vs. FB web view
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aaronpk what is realtime?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "realtime" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=realtime&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-13%2Fline%2F1426289216157
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aaronpk document there? ^^
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tantek nice
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KevinMarks poor mans version of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCgQDjiotG0
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tantek aaronpk - what do you think of my suggested "things to add" if you're going to demo? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#demo-user-stories
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aaronpk oh yes!
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KevinMarks Realtime is a well-defined software field where computing has to complete or fail cleanly by a deadline, because latency is paramount.
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loqi.me created /Realtime (+161) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-13/line/1426289216157 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks see http://epeus.blogspot.com/2009/08/flow-past-web-even-better-than-realtime.html
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aaronpk tantek: btw the socialwg wiki skin on mobile has all the section headers collapsed by default so none of the fragment links worked while i was reading on my phone :(
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tantek dang
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tantek yeah that's the darn mediawiki default I think
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tantek I wonder if you login to the wiki on your phone if you can change your preferred skin
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aaronpk oh maybe
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aaronpk it wasn't hard to figure out
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aaronpk anyway... I like the list
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tantek should I do something similar for the "discuss federation candidates" agenda item on day 2?
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aaronpk the only thing i was curious about was the requiement of "personal" website
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tantek I figured I'd put "personal website" in there as a think you should link your name to, as what you're using to demo, instead of a demo/test site
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tantek going for the ideal
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tantek as a way to see who (if anyone) pushes back
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aaronpk i meant the first reference to it "showing User Stories on people's actual decentralized (personal) social web sites"
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aaronpk yeah i'll be curious to see if anyone pushes back
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tantek and who, and how
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tantek I want such pushback to have to be explicit so we can openly ask why, and document any exceptions
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aaronpk corporate networks are totally a thing, so I suspect Ann will
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tantek except she's not demoing anything
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KevinMarks why don't fragments expand the collapsed thing?
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tantek so she has no reason to pushback
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KevinMarks could fragmention fix that?
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aaronpk they don't have anything they can demo? I thought they had a lot of things working internally?
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tantek KevinMarks: more JS in the wp skin could fix that
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tantek without fragmentions
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tantek aaronpk - they don't have anything they can demo that shows any of the API candidates
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tantek "Demos of API Candidates"
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aaronpk not even any of the user stories?
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KevinMarks I mean I've noticed it as problem wiht fragmention too
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tantek these are not demos of user stories
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aaronpk oh gotcha, forgot we had a list
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tantek these are Demos of API Candidates
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tantek *via* user stories
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aaronpk okay yeah
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aaronpk wow this page needs updating http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_your_realtime_feed
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@todrobbins @edsu have you seen https://github.com/esripdx/spiderpig “reduces a dynamic website into a pile of smoldering html” @aaronpk @t #archives #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/576528432424624128)
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