2015-03-15 UTC
# 00:01 KartikPrabhu tjgillies: your site is giving a "Oh no! We couldn't connect to the database. " electronicmaji joined the channel
# 00:04 pdurbin KartikPrabhu: don't get people in here going about databases ;) # 00:06 aaronpk tantek: I don't even know how to "find the first h-feed" given the parsed result # 00:06 aaronpk like, I don't know what the appropriate behavior is # 00:07 tantek all other things being equal, such linear order references "first h-feed" refer to document source order # 00:07 tantek I'm telling you how the instructions are unambiguous # 00:08 tantek if you're working with a tree, e.g. DOM tree, parsed microformats tree, then such linearization can be simulated with a depth first traversal. # 00:11 tantek should any embedded objects, e.g. on a property, also be part of the children collection of an object? # 00:12 aaronpk you have an example of that, you have an h-org as one of the categories # 00:12 tantek e.g. what if my h-feed was on an element like <ol class="e-x-posts h-feed"> inside my h-cad? # 00:12 aaronpk my DFS could also include properties, not just children # 00:13 tantek except there is no way to preserve order of objects across properties vs. children # 00:14 tantek however, if all property objects were in the children collection, then they could have a canonical order there # 00:15 aaronpk well this is irritating. MVP is to not make it support tantek.com # 00:17 aaronpk i think barnaby's mf-cleaner may have enough functions to piece this together actually # 00:20 aaronpk tantek: why do you have a blank p-name for your h-feed? <span class="p-name"></span> # 00:21 tantek because I didn't want an implied nor artificial name # 00:32 tantek I wanted to suppress an automatic excessively noisy implied p-name # 00:33 tantek there was nothing in the existing visual design to put in there, ergo nothing # 00:33 tantek I wasn't going to make something up just for plumbing # 00:34 tantek the interface to following my home page right? # 00:35 tantek right there at the top object, as all pages with a top level microformat object do # 00:36 aaronpk nope. that doesn't work for my site, since I don't have a top-level h-feed object # 00:37 aaronpk I think i'm not going to name feeds, at least not for now. I'm just going to use the URL as the name. # 00:42 tantek right - that's why I asked about *why* you needed it # 00:42 aaronpk I thought it would be nice to show a name other than the URL, but we'll see how this goes # 00:43 tantek my point was you could show the name of the feed, or if empty, fall back to the name of the top level object for the page # 00:43 tantek both of which are in the microformats parsed JSON # 00:43 aaronpk but the top level object of my home page is my first note, so that wouldn't work for it # 00:43 tantek a-ha! so we have to solve this problem anyway electronicmaji joined the channel
# 00:49 tantek this is always the challenge with writing code that consumes information # 00:49 tantek you have to handle real world publishing practices, whatever they may be # 00:49 aaronpk unless you put the burden on the publishers to publish against super strict rules # 00:49 tantek unfortunately previous attempts give into the temptation to place rules on publishers danlyke_ joined the channel
# 00:49 tantek e.g. "required" properties and crap like that # 00:50 tantek people writing consuming code / parsers assume they can depend on something just because they legislated it # 00:50 tantek as if they have the right to demand more burdens of publishers # 00:50 aaronpk and that usually leads to horrible errors surfaced to the user # 00:50 tantek all of that is bound up in the same flawed methodology KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# 00:55 tjgillies KartikPrabhu: yeah database was taking up too much memory its down for the moment heh # 00:56 tjgillies i only have like 1 gig of ram on that box # 00:57 tjgillies is that a wiki page on indiewebcamp? KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# 01:06 tjgillies Thinking about using matrix.org to create my own indie frontend # 01:06 tjgillies that uses their api for federation and storage # 01:10 GWG Why do all roads for me lead to pfefferle? # 01:11 GWG What is missing is icons that identify relationships. KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 01:17 tantek though why not just use the feed icon for both? cmhobbs joined the channel
# 01:19 GWG aaronpk: That is what they want you to think. tantek joined the channel
# 01:20 tjgillies i call it the undulation icon KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 01:20 tjgillies since thats technically what it represents # 01:21 tjgillies allegory for radio waves tantek joined the channel
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# 01:47 aaronpk did Atom ever get its own logo or does it just use the RSS one? bengo, KevinMarks__, KevinMarks_, electronicmaji and snarfed joined the channel
# 02:52 tantek aaronpk - that's not an RSS logo - the standard "feed" logo was actually done / designed by Mozilla, and openly licensed for anyone to use as a "feed" # 02:52 tantek you can see it as part of the "Valid Atom 1.0" badges that you used to see on websites along with other valid html etc. # 02:58 snarfed hey GWG, i'm getting this error from semantic-linkbacks: # 02:58 snarfed PHP Warning: array_intersect(): Argument #2 is not an array in .../semantic-linkbacks-microformats-handler.php on line 339 # 02:59 snarfed doesn't sound like a PHP version incompatibility…? or does it? # 02:59 GWG I've never done anything in the handler file, to my recollection. # 02:59 snarfed sure, i don't mean to blame you, more just looking for help :P # 03:01 snarfed sounds like php-mf2 started returning the type property as a non-array? # 03:02 GWG snarfed: I didn't mean blame...I just was saying I hadn't familiarized myself with it # 03:04 snarfed foreach ($entry['properties'] as $key => $values) { # 03:04 snarfed if (isset($obj['type']) && array_intersect(array('h-cite', 'h-entry'), $obj['type'])) { # 03:04 GWG snarfed: the object you are trying to parse...what is it? # 03:04 GWG But, could it be a type the parser doesn't know? # 03:05 snarfed GWG: i've never worked on this code, i'm just guessing based on reading it # 03:05 snarfed upgraded the plugin on my site a bit ago and started seeing this # 03:06 snarfed in the code snippet i pasted above, i think $entry is a parsed mf2 object # 03:06 GWG Well, I know one thing in the last update broke my site. # 03:10 GWG pfefferle made an improvement that relies on a bugfix in WordPress core that won't be deployed until 4.2. # 03:28 snarfed GWG: interesting! this doesn't sound like that though, if you look at the error messag bengo joined the channel
# 03:34 GWG I think it is what is being presented to it, not the command. # 03:38 snarfed odd though, i think it's working on my local wp, which is also 4.1.1 bengo joined the channel
# 03:39 GWG Keep me posted. I'm always curious. wolftune joined the channel
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# 04:14 matrixrelay @kodomulo:tyler.cat: waves through the portal KevinMarks_, bengo, KartikPrabhu, pwcc, snarfed and electronicmaji joined the channel
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# 11:25 pwcc Sorry for hashtag spam, indiewebcamp, was testing a noterlive patch. Will ask Loqi for help. KevinMarks_, frzn and Acidnerd joined the channel
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# 15:21 pdurbin GWG: wish I could come. Will there be any events in the evening? A dinner I could crash or something? # 15:22 GWG pdurbin: The schedule implies yay # 15:25 GWG I also have to finalize my transportation. KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# 15:31 tantek pdurbin: would be great to see you even if just at dinner Acidnerd joined the channel
# 15:43 jonnybarnes Oh its just the Loqi entry that lists my domain instead of username danlyke_ and wolftune joined the channel
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# 16:38 petermolnar every single time I see Cambridge I bright up as I do live in Cambridge... just in the one in the UK.... dariusdunlap joined the channel
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# 16:50 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> With this relay we have interop between slack and matrix.org through irc as a medium #mindblown Mark87 joined the channel
# 16:51 tantek matrixrelay: what does <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> mean? # 16:52 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> This is kodomulo at the domain tyler.cat speaking in a federated room on the matrix network # 16:53 aaronpk wouldn't kodumulo@tyler.cat make more sense then? # 16:53 tantek aaronpk - except that looks like an email address :/ # 16:53 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> matrix.org name format is @name:domain # 16:53 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I guess I could rewrite it to make you guys happy, it's just display at this point # 16:53 aaronpk maybe matrix realized that and chose that alternate format because of it # 16:54 tantek kodomulo - the use of ":" that way is also the opposite of XML NS conventions which makes it confusing too! # 16:54 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I didn't make the format, noted though :) # 16:54 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I'll change the display in the relay # 16:54 tantek I think the domain/user method we used for slack etc seems to work # 16:54 tantek in case anyone wants to add any other bridges! # 16:54 tjgillies like tyler.cat/kodomulo? # 16:55 Mark87 my mind is exploding. Is it url format? username=null, domain = kodomulo, port=tyler.cat? Or is it username = @kodomulo, password=tyler.cat? I'm so confused # 16:55 tjgillies matrix has federated channels too. my relay is on #irc/indieweb:tyler.cat # 16:59 tjgillies i use cloudflare they give you unlimited certs for every domain under dns for free # 16:59 tjgillies subdomains as well # 17:00 tjgillies and it's automatic, no need to configure webserver # 17:02 tjgillies aaronpk: You need to set your authorization endpoint in a <link> tag on your home page or in an HTTP header. # 17:02 tjgillies is this new? # 17:02 tjgillies my auth endpoint is index.html heh # 17:03 aaronpk it's because it needs to get an access token to post to your site # 17:03 aaronpk if it's just trying to sign you in then it could use indieauth.com or do relmeauth itself # 17:04 tjgillies the downside to have a static indie site is that its hard to push stuff to it ;) # 17:05 pdurbin tjgillies: I've been thinking I should put a git client on my phone for this. To push to my static site. # 17:05 tjgillies I mean programatically # 17:05 tjgillies like ownyourgram and such # 17:06 tjgillies I guess I could setup a remote api that accepts command then does git commit and pushes to github # 17:06 tjgillies edrex was talking about something similar at homebrew website meeting # 17:07 tjgillies using gitfish # 17:08 tjgillies although that looks like post commit hook. I need something that does the inverse matrixrelay joined the channel
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# 17:15 aaronpk bret has a micropub endpoint that commits to his site KevinMarks__ joined the channel
# 17:19 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> indiepants? KevinMarks___ joined the channel
# 17:20 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> ah! # 17:20 hmans aaronpk, IndiePants isn't really a separate project, but it _is_ a fresh rewrite, putting Pants completely on IndieWeb ideas. # 17:21 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I don't have pants # 17:21 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> installed # 17:22 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> oh its a rails project # 17:22 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> marvelous, I was gonna write one from scratch but this is much better # 17:22 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> needs to learn rails again # 17:23 hmans aaronpk, it's both a blog engine and an aggregator; you can follow "any" indieweb user, and it'll go through various things (ATOM/RSS, h-entry, h-feed etc.) to try and pull their posts. I've also implemented u-like-of et al. # 17:23 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> bravo! # 17:23 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> but why... pants? # 17:23 hmans But it's not really in a good place to use right now. The old code base is "not enough indieweb", the new (indiepants) is about 70% done, but we're in the middle of moving house right now, so it needs to wait for a couple of weeks. # 17:23 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> seems a bit peculiar # 17:24 hmans I was thinking about other names at some point, but always came back to Pants, it just stuck. # 17:25 hmans aaronpk, pretty much -- but it is shoehorning remote posts into a "social feed" structure (instead of giving you a feed-reader like interface. If that makes sense?) # 17:25 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> sticky pants # 17:25 hmans The overall goal (regarding UX) is to emulate a Facebook-ish social network without the centralized, silo bits. # 17:26 bret tjgillies: I have set up something similar to what edrex was talking about. It needs some work though, but conceptually automating a git workflow is all you need to add new stuff # 17:26 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> nice # 17:27 aaronpk hmans: yeah the "feed-reader-like interface" is kind of old # 17:27 tjgillies bret: ah yeah thats what im looking for # 17:27 bret I'm in the process of breaking it into small modules # 17:28 hmans Pants has a (very simple) API for (mobile) clients, a friend is working on some basic clients for Android and iOS. Idea here is that it works "just" like any other social network, except you log in to your own site (and not the network provider's.) bengo joined the channel
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# 17:48 voxpelli bret: great to hear you're still working on it :) would so love to start using something like that for my jekyll-blog # 17:48 bret voxpelli: school and work has left me little time to work on it # 17:49 bret i've only had time for smaller projects along with my school project # 17:49 bret this should all change relatively soon # 17:50 voxpelli bret: I know the feeling :P my webmention project hasn't got many updates these past few months # 17:53 voxpelli bret: :) feel free to ping me in some issues or PR:s on GitHub or so btw if you want some brainstorm/code review/other help # 17:56 voxpelli good coding standards tools makes everything else so much simpler # 17:57 fkooman ben_thatmustbeme: do you still remember what the issue was with distributed indieauth on your server? dariusdunlap, KevinMarks_, nloadholtes, Mark87 and loic_m joined the channel
# 18:23 hmans aaronpk, absolutely -- and I am planning on supporting it, obviously. snarfed and danlyke_ joined the channel
# 18:37 aaronpk sometimes deciding where to put buttons really stresses me out dariusdunlap joined the channel
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# 18:39 aaronpk i need an "update" button for each feed, to force a refresh # 18:40 shaners We're working on some Micropub stuff for Homesteading. # 18:41 shaners And I vaguely remember talk of a kind of sorting hat algorithm for determining which kind of post an incoming `h-entry` is based on its attributes. # 18:41 shaners Like, if it has a `content` and no `name`, it's *probably* a Note. # 18:42 aaronpk yes, or possibly also post type is not important, you can just store the attributes that are found and display it accordingly # 18:42 shaners @aaronpk @tantek Do you remember anything like that being discussed? # 18:42 aaronpk post type is mostly an implementation detail within a site # 18:42 shaners Agreed. It's an implementation detail that I happen to care about. ;) # 18:43 aaronpk because an h-entry may have any number of attributes such as content, name, photo, icon, location, etc. # 18:44 shaners Depending on the creator's intent, that's either a blog post or a photo. Medium vs Flickr. # 18:44 shaners I want to be able to treat them as different things. friedcell joined the channel
# 18:45 aaronpk okay you're saying you may want to display two h-entrys differently even though they both have photo, content, and name properties? # 18:45 shaners We're kinda thinking about using a vendor prefixed attr like, `as-type` or `as-post-type`. # 18:46 bret yeah i display photos from instagram vs panoramas differently 4sho # 18:46 aaronpk and why does the blog post have a "photo" property? Mark87 joined the channel
# 18:47 shaners Oh. I thought we were using `u-photo` for for that. # 18:48 aaronpk i think the issue you're encountering came up more than once and we were trying to sort it out dariusdunlap joined the channel
# 18:52 shaners Ok. So, I guess we could infer that `h-entry` with a child `u-photo` is a photo post? # 18:53 voxpelli Sounds like a good idea from reading the wiki at least # 18:53 aaronpk well I also include a u-photo on my running posts where I also uploaded a photo # 18:53 aaronpk that may be enough of an edge case for you to ignore for now ;) # 18:53 voxpelli aaronpk: is that what caused the "unless there is a p-location h-card" on the wiki ;) # 18:54 shaners Another ambiguity is around the quantified self / metrics posts. # 18:54 voxpelli oh, so you're running is a geo-post that isn't a checkin – the permutations of the different kinds of posts :P # 18:54 aaronpk yeah my run posts have a route and properties like distance, avg speed # 18:55 aaronpk but the code that deals with the photo for them is the same as for my regular photo posts # 18:56 Mark87 this sounds like a project I built once before.... You can infer that an h-entry iwht a u-photo is a photo post, but what happens when I post an album as a blog post? There will be multiple u-photos. Just look at facebook # 18:56 aaronpk it's just like "hey is there a photo property? if so, spit out this template" # 18:57 shaners @aaronpk: Do you use `h-as-note` or `h-as-*` anywhere on your site? # 18:58 aaronpk shaners: no, i've avoided all of the activitystreams stuff for now # 18:59 shaners Ok. Me and @tantek both have `h-entry h-as-note` on our notes. But we've (a while ago) agreed that it should prolly just be `h-entry h-as-note` since it's only being used for styling by each of us. # 19:00 voxpelli where's more docs on the h-as? I know I experimented with it about four years ago, but haven't kept up to date on it # 19:00 shaners What if we added an optional `as=` attribute on a micropub payload for more specificity? # 19:00 shaners @voxpelli: there aren't docs on it. It was an experiment. # 19:00 aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: any thoughts on that, since you've implemented a much more thorough micropub posting interface? # 19:01 voxpelli shaners: oh, but no notes on it or anything? I only experimented with it pre-mf2 and only used it for verbs, not for object types # 19:01 aaronpk shaners: interestingly I read that as the english "as" rather than an acronym of activity streams, so I would read "h=entry&as=photo" as "a post as a photo" # 19:03 shaners @voxpelli: I only use AS for their vocabulary research. Not any of their Atom/JSON implementation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ # 19:05 voxpelli shaners: I've done both – but the vocabulary research they did for both verbs and objects – would be nice to use the verbs and objects in mf2 as yeah – it's solid work on the research # 19:05 tantek I suppose it's my fault for planting the h-as-* idea, I think it was as a result of FSWS2012 discussions. # 19:05 aaronpk voxpelli: I believe AS2.0 is moving away from using verbs # 19:06 tantek over 2 years later, I don't think it was a useful experiment and am considering dropping all the h-as-* class names # 19:06 tantek I'm more than ever convinced that explicit post typing in a format is not justified by current use-cases # 19:06 shaners @tantek: I'm going to drop the h- part but keep the as-note (mainly for CSSery) # 19:06 aaronpk tantek: we should document the occurrences of when explicit post typing starts to look like a good idea # 19:06 tantek and that the AS design biases in that direction are mis-informed or based on flawed assumptions # 19:07 aaronpk like the example shaners ran into with the featured image for a blog post # 19:07 tantek aaronpk - the *only* scenario I can think of offhand is when a user actually chooses in a UI the post type # 19:07 tantek that they want regardless of whatever else they add to the post # 19:07 aaronpk yes but even most posting interfaces are moving away from that model # 19:08 voxpelli +1, in reality very few scenarios fit one of the defined types as everyone has their own twist on things # 19:08 tantek I think explicit post typing was purely an evolutionary step, and we can move beyond it now # 19:08 aaronpk i'm still unclear on checkins, probably because i still haven't implemented it myself # 19:08 tantek thus we should discourage adding explicit post typing to anything, whether UI, implementation, protocols, or formats # 19:08 aaronpk it seems that an h-entry with content and location could be either a note with location or a checkin with a comment, so we need to figure that one out # 19:09 shaners tantek: I still think there is room for different kinds of posting interfaces. I like the explicit separate post types / UIs. # 19:09 tantek aaronpk - indeed - we need to figure that one out by looking at how are users creating those posts and what are their apparent intentions - can we find any patterns among the existing UIs / implementations? dariusdunlap joined the channel
# 19:10 aaronpk i haven't sat down to figure it out yet, which is one of the reasons i still haven't added checkins to my site # 19:10 shaners @aaronpk: How do you differentiate between a Note and a Weigh-in or "Drank a coffee"? Are those all just notes? # 19:10 voxpelli what is important is probably presentation hints rather than explicit types # 19:10 tantek shaners: there's always opportunity to experiment with new user interfaces. I think aaronpk and I are just summarizing the current trends. # 19:10 tantek which is moving away from explicit post typing, both in UIs, and formats. # 19:11 aaronpk shaners: i have some experimental attributes on my food/drink posts # 19:11 tantek thus I think there would have be compelling use-cases to justify them # 19:11 aaronpk right now p3k is more post-type-aware than I'd like it to be # 19:11 aaronpk and as i've been devleoping it, i've regretted making it so explicitly aware of post types in many cases # 19:12 Mark87 the alternative to keying off explicit post types is keying off an arbitrary number of property combinations. Which is easier? # 19:12 aaronpk Mark87: no, the alternative is to not care about explicit post types # 19:12 tantek I know benwerd has expressed similarly about Known's post creation UI - that he's seen people continually stumble at the "pick a post kind" step. # 19:12 shaners @aaronpk: In HS, we have a core Post (with common attrs) that all other post type build on top of. # 19:13 aaronpk but then I quickly ran into the case of "I want a photo to be presented identically on many post types other than a photo post" # 19:13 Loqi gives aaronpk a photo to be presented identically on many post types other than a photo post" # 19:13 voxpelli the importance of "types" is mostly in giving presentation hints to indiereaders and webmentions presentations though? # 19:14 voxpelli shaners: yeah, unless you want to add extra personal data for pure presentation on your own site # 19:15 shaners And for me (and work on Homesteading), some post types will be embeddable into other posts. # 19:15 Mark87 @aaronpk You will still care about combinations. I.e., if e-content present, show this interface, unless a u-photo is present, then show this interface. "Well just show or a hide a standard photo presentation and its easy". What if you have several u-photos because the post is an entire album? # 19:15 aaronpk Mark87: i plan to deal with that as it happens, not try to overthink it before making any progress # 19:17 shaners @voxpelli: For example, I'm writing an article (or note or checkin), and want to plop a photo/video/audio from my own past posts (a la media library) into this new post. # 19:17 Mark87 @aaronpk, sure that's fine. That's in line with the whole ethos of indieweb. I'm just saying that at some point, you have to choose what you support, and its easier to say "I support h-entrys" rather than "I support bundles of properties in these combinations" # 19:18 tantek saying what user features you support > saying what plumbing you support # 19:19 voxpelli shaners: and you don't want the photo to change the "type" thus you want to explicitly tell that the post isn't a photo "type" post? # 19:21 tantek voxpelli: I think that's the key distinction. This isn't about what the post type "is", but rather, did the user take an explicit action to create a *specific* post type. # 19:22 tantek which also affords the possibility of having a UI for users to *change* the type of post (why not?) # 19:22 tantek e.g. I write a note, and later with an update I expand it to a blog post. # 19:22 tantek i.e. article with explicit title, more paragraphs etc. # 19:22 tantek could similarly happen with posting a photo with caption, and turning it into a blog post # 19:23 tantek real world example: I kind of did that yesterday, by posting a photo on IG with a note (more than a short caption), and then later turning all that content into a blog post on my own site # 19:24 tantek That felt more like "updating" my previous post, expanding it, rather than "embedding" my previous post in a new post. # 19:24 tantek the copy and paste of the prose in particular from photo "caption" to blog post prose really made the difference for me, in terms of update vs. embed # 19:25 voxpelli Another direction would be to mark up some of the content as the primary/central ones (u-featured?) as opposed to more peripheral data? # 19:25 voxpelli So in case many presentation hints collide (is it primarily geo, photo or content) one can say: This is primary geo # 19:25 tantek voxpelli: that's just renaming the problem from "type" to "primary" ;) # 19:30 voxpelli tantek: I'm thinking more like a flag rather than added content – if you have a photo, a geo and a blog post content marked up – then adding a flag to one or more of them telling that your primary intent and focus of the post is to those one or more particular parts and the other is just additional data that's not your prime focus or intent of the post # 19:30 voxpelli – thus providing a presentation hint on what content a indiereader should put in center if in doubt # 19:31 voxpelli tantek: yeah, saw that it was the mf2-version you referenced now :P # 19:31 tantek still, prior art is prior art! should document that earlier reference also # 19:32 tantek ah, back when we had comment threads on G+. those were the times :) danlyke_ joined the channel
# 19:36 Loqi slack/shaners: <@U03QR2B3P>: Feature request: convert `Loqi slack/shaners` into `shaners`. # 19:37 Loqi slack/shaners: Ah jeez. I'm just making a mess. Sorry! shaners joined the channel
# 19:38 shaners So. Kind of related to my request to add `as=note` to a micropub payload... # 19:39 shaners ...HS has title and subtitle on most all posts (except notes) # 19:40 voxpelli tantek: are there are flag/bool kind of mf2-properties? # 19:40 voxpelli One usecase for the ".x-primary" would be to know if a "u-like-of" or the "e-content" is the primary focus of the post and thus whether to render it in a facepile or as a standalone comment # 19:40 shaners @aaronpk: Any reason you see that I can't send `title=foo&subtitle=bar&name=foo+%20+-%20+bar? dariusdunlap joined the channel
# 19:41 voxpelli Right now my WebMention endpoint treats all h-entries with a "u-like-of" as being a "like-type" post – which limits the ways people can experiment with different kinds of likes # 19:41 aaronpk voxpelli: there is no content for like-of normally, so if it has content it would be more than a like # 19:41 tantek voxpelli: it represents how people implement likes # 19:41 tantek if you want to experiment, you can do so with content / presentation - no need for plumbing # 19:42 tantek that is, don't let plumbing limitations stop your *visual* *human readable* experiments # 19:42 aaronpk shaners: it's "name" instead of "title", and I don't see any reason you couldn't send "subtitle" too. that's not the same as summary, right? # 19:42 tantek because such visual human readable experiments are how we discuss whether any new plumbing is necessary or useful or not # 19:42 voxpelli the only way I can experiment with rendering them inside/outside facepile is by guessing what the intent is by sniffing different parameters of the post and trying to find an intent/focus in there :P # 19:43 tantek voxpelli: no I mean your own responses, not your rendering of others' # 19:43 shaners aaronpk: But in my view, I wrap .p-name around both title and subtitle. So parsers get both, not just title. eschnou joined the channel
# 19:45 aaronpk shaners: i'm confused about that, it seems like a weird hack # 19:48 tantek voxpelli: thanks for the earlier citation, I added it to the ActivityStreams page - feel free to add more if you find more! # 19:50 voxpelli tantek: cool! in regards to bool/flag mf2-question – is there such a one? # 19:50 shaners @aaronpk: To me, the "name" of a thing is the combination of title and subtitle. But h-entry, etc doesn't have any concept of a subtitle. # 19:50 shaners (Which makes sense in a paving cowpaths sense. But falls short of my needs.) # 19:50 tantek voxpelli, I don't think there is - not sure what it would represent and what use-case it would solve. # 19:51 aaronpk i suspect there are enough blog posts with subtitles that it wouldn't be unreasonable to add a subtitle property to h-entry? # 19:51 tantek shaners - have you documented permalinks to posts where you use title/subtitle in human readable presentation? # 19:51 tantek HTML WG concluded the opposite re: <hgroup> element for example, for grouping a title and subtitle. # 19:51 aaronpk pretty much every Medium post has a subtitle afaik # 19:52 voxpelli tantek: just thinking whether it would at all be possible to have something like a ".x-primary" in mf2 – a modifier of an existing mf2-property # 19:52 tantek like any other such feature, anyone interested in it can start by documenting URLs to real world visual examples # 19:53 tantek voxpelli: modifiers of existing properties sounds like it could add complexity # 19:53 tantek probably better to start with what is the use-case / user-flow that results in capturing some sort of notion of "primary" # 19:53 shaners To be clear, I'm not asking to add any properties to h-entry. # 19:54 shaners I'm only asking if it is against the micropub spec at all to send attrs that are not a part of the corresponding microformat's spec. # 19:54 voxpelli shaners: I think the discussion branched into two separate branches ;) # 19:54 aaronpk so far the only properties in micropub posts that are not part of the microformat post it's creating are things that cause actions to happen on the server, like syndicate-to # 19:55 shaners Are micropub servers expected to quietly ignore properties that it doesn't know about? # 19:56 voxpelli tantek: yeah, I guess getting more of a discussion going on how to present different kinds of data could help that – will make a note to blog about the decisions I make in my endpoint and how to avoid "typifying" the presentation # 19:56 shaners ie, if i send `name=foo : bar` and also `title=foo&subtitle=bar`, will your micropub server just ignore `title` and `subtitle`? # 19:56 aaronpk that is what would happen if you don't do anything explicitly one way or the other, so yes # 19:56 tantek voxpelli: that makes sense. yes a blog post exploring that would be great. # 19:58 shaners Ok. So, I will experimentally send `as, title, subtitle` in HS's micropub payload for our own uses. And any other server that don't want to use those properties can just ignore them # 19:58 aaronpk it will certainly work. you should probably also add support for accepting the "name" parameter that other micropub clients will be sending # 19:59 tantek aaronpk, how does a micropub server distinguish between such "control" properties like syndicate-to and all other properties which presumably apply to the object being created? Mark87 joined the channel
# 20:00 shaners Totes. We prefer title/subtitle, but will fall back to name if title/sub are not present. # 20:00 aaronpk currently the list of "control" properties is documented on the wiki, and i believe all server implementations only accept properties they know about # 20:02 tantek aaronpk - is there any naming convention for control properties vs. others? # 20:05 aaronpk no, although i believe the only one right now is "syndicate-to" # 20:06 tantek I'm wondering if we should pick a prefix for control properties # 20:06 shaners Is currently the only thing is discoverable by a client via `?q=` ? # 20:08 shaners Has there been discussion about `?q=post-types` (or some other name) to discover what post types that server knows how to deal with? # 20:10 aaronpk one of the other nice things about non-explicit post typing, is that if someone uses a micropub app to post a bookmark, but their server doesn't know what to do with the "bookmark" property, it would still create a plain note with the "content" property which the client could set to "bookmarked _url_" # 20:13 voxpelli +1, would be nice if the server could inform the client that it it received unknown properties so the client can decide on alternative paths, can it? # 20:15 shaners Still think it'd be useful to discover the "known" post types that a server create. Mark87 and danlyke_ joined the channel
# 20:27 aaronpk just finished the "follow/unfollow? interface for Monocle # 20:27 Loqi aaronpk meant to say: just finished the "follow/unfollow" interface for Monocle indie-visitor joined the channel
# 20:28 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname # 20:28 aaronpk and now i'm wondering if I should make it optionally post a "followed ___" post on my site when I follow someone! # 20:28 aaronpk is anyone else making "followed" posts right now? electronicmaji joined the channel
# 20:30 aaronpk followed is a post that indicates the author has just subscribed to someone's feed # 20:31 shaners @aaronpk: Quill sends a `slug` property, but h-entry has no `slug` property. # 20:33 shaners I mean, I like slug and have one on my HS forms too. # 20:33 aaronpk that might be another example of a control property # 20:33 shaners Same deal as earlier. Just ignore if you don't know about it. NBD. # 20:33 aaronpk since it's indicating to the server what to do with the URL # 20:34 shaners We're considering making our slugs unique per post type and treating it as a UID # 20:34 tantek yikes - I think others have made that mistake before. # 20:34 tantek slugs are human readable/editable and thus should never be depended on for permalinking / ID etc. krendil joined the channel
# 20:35 tantek nor should they have authoring restrictions like "unique per post type" # 20:35 shaners Yeah. I'm prolly not gonna. Just brainstorming about it. # 20:36 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> Is there a wiki page for interop formats? for domain and name? # 20:36 matrixrelay <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> tantek was talking about domain.com/username I think # 20:45 shaners PS. aaronpk thank you so much for making Quill as both a step by step building guide and a reference implementation. Next time we're in person, a burrito on me. 👠KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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# 21:15 GWG tantek: I'll mention it at the next meeting KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 21:20 GWG I have to work on my recruitment. # 21:21 GWG tantek: By the way, what is your itinerary for Cambridge? snarfed joined the channel
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# 21:53 KartikPrabhu shaners: I have considered using name/additional-name for title/subtitle combination Mark87 and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 22:11 KartikPrabhu shaners: additional-name is not officially in h-entry but exists in h-card kodomulo-tyler-c joined the channel
# 22:25 aaronpk i was gonna say, it looks like it uses bittorrent sync # 22:30 tjgillies the sync protocol is agnostic # 22:30 tjgillies someone was saying you can swap it out # 22:30 aaronpk i see a lot of references to the bittorrent sync api # 22:30 tjgillies i haven't messed with it yet, so im not positive if thats true # 22:30 aaronpk but it looks like it's ultimately just reading files on disk matrixrelay and nloadholtes joined the channel
# 22:34 GWG !tell acegiak Thinking of changing the response display # 22:34 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next tantek, lukebrooker and matrixrelay joined the channel
# 22:38 tjgillies i like matrix because everything is a DAG, DAGs are the future man # 22:38 tjgillies ponders making a DAG tshirt # 22:38 tjgillies directed acyclic graph shaners joined the channel
# 22:41 tjgillies DAG usually implies the use of a merkle tree as well # 22:41 KartikPrabhu tantek: what do you think of borrowing addtional-name from h-card for h-entry sub titles? pwcc joined the channel
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# 22:46 kodomulo-relay although its afternoon here # 22:46 tantek KartikPrabhu: I've wondered about that kind of usage - specifically, is the "or:" really part of the additional name? # 22:47 kodomulo-relay aaronpk: I need to put that somewhere # 22:49 aaronpk +1 for making it a private account. that's what I've done iwth mine # 22:50 pwcc tantek, aaronpk - yah, I might go back to sleep now :) # 22:51 tjgillies KartikPrabhu: ah, ok thanks :) # 22:52 pwcc GWG 9:51am - I was coding all weekend so not yet thinking. # 22:53 GWG I was trying to tune in the airport on a Raspberry Pi for some reason all weekend. # 22:53 GWG Then I added a Publication field to Post Kinds. # 22:53 GWG I also need to fix date, but now I'm thinking of revisiting formatting of existing elements # 22:54 GWG I'm trying to figure out an interesting Indieweb type thing to do with Air Traffic Control matrixrelay joined the channel
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# 23:11 pwcc !tell KevinMarks___ yeah, pull request for noterlive is on github. I have a few ideas but issues are no good without code :) # 23:11 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next bengo joined the channel
# 23:15 tjgillies I have the inverse problem # 23:15 tjgillies code with no idea # 23:22 tjgillies What is co-creation? # 23:22 tjgillies I hear it used a lot # 23:24 shaners @tjgillies Does "code with no idea" mean you're looking for a project? # 23:27 KartikPrabhu shaners: unfortunately the @ before a nick does not ping them on IRC. Also links to twitter profile (which might be someone else) in IRC logs. just fyi :) # 23:29 KartikPrabhu tjgillies: most of my indieweb ideas came because I already coded a website. kodomulo-relay joined the channel
# 23:30 kodomulo-relay kodomulo == tjgillies # 23:31 kodomulo-relay shaners: I'm looking for projects if people are offering them, and attaching teh monies ;) # 23:36 kodomulo-relay github.com/tjgillies tilgovi and nloadholtes joined the channel
KartikPrabhu tjgillies: your site is giving a "Oh no! We couldn't connect to the database. "
aaronpk okay so depth-first-search of http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F looking for the first object that matches 
tjgillies KartikPrabhu: yeah database was taking up too much memory its down for the moment heh
tantek worth documenting on /MySQL#Issues ?
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "missing is icons that identify relationships." yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=missing+is+icons+that+identify+relationships.&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-14%2Fline%2F1426381915004
KevinMarks I wonder if people now see it as a wifi icon instead
ben_thatmustbeme Excellent mobilepub login/logout works fine
@humanproject Works for humans IFF #IndieWeb #PersonalDataStore #RightToRecord & livable #BasicIncome @dane @Corning https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/576953712196878337)
bret wow, trivial screen capture gifs: http://www.cockos.com/licecap/
@xtof_fr @pierreozoux un #indiewebcamp pour le prochain #openchateau début juin ? http://christopheducamp.com/2015-074/ (twitter.com/_/status/577022960030085120)
christopheducamp.com edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+327) "/* Participants */ added myself 25 participants 25 spots remaining" (view diff)
@pierreozoux @xtof_fr je suis de passage á Paris pour le @OuiShareLabs et on va parler #IndieWeb Mais en juin pas possible :/ (twitter.com/_/status/577052460918927361)
@terryfinney A test of an Indieweb Post Kind reply: http://stationaryjourney.com/11715/ (twitter.com/_/status/577068002765639681)
pdurbin GWG: ok, based on http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge I just put dinner at 18:00 after day 1 in my calendar. Will see if I my wife can pick up the kids from school that night. Thanks. :)
jonnybarnes.uk edited /User:Jonnybarnes.uk (+719) "/* Jonny Barnes */ Adding stuff and h-card to my User page as per /wikifying" (view diff)
jonnybarnes How do people get just their name in the IRC logs?
petermolnar every single time I see Cambridge I bright up as I do live in Cambridge... just in the one in the UK....
@hmans @epirat (Note: Pants' current code isn't really a great example of an indieweb implementation. Hence indiepants.) (twitter.com/_/status/577155653959081984)
@ePirat @hmans so if I implement indieweb correctly, will my blog thingy be able to communicate with pants? (and indiepants?) (twitter.com/_/status/577155906581970944)
loqi.me created /indiepants (+18) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-15/line/1426439986492 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
@gRegorLove @veganstraightedge: @aaronpk got this set up for #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/577181872486158337)
@aaronpk @gRegorLove @veganstraightedge #indiewebcamp Check out http://slack.indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/577182159255007232)
voxpelli or – I apparently used both without separating them: https://plus.google.com/+PelleWessman/posts/VSiMYVKgDan :P
tantek.com edited /Federated_Social_Web_Summit (-19) "/* San Francisco 2012 */ use of h-as-* may have started here, I don't remember offhand if I implemented it myself before the summit" (view diff)
@leonieke Trying out various #indieweb plugins for my #wordpress blog (twitter.com/_/status/577211113642819584)
pwcc aaronpk or tantek are you able to label @pwcc_dev a spam account to protect against forgetfulness? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-15/line/1426418042146
@Freerange_Inc @nick_appleyard as amusing as that would be, sadly not http://p2pvalue.eu/2nd-floss4p2p-workshop I'm thinking of it as #indieweb meets #p2p ... (twitter.com/_/status/577248079927226369)
@ColleenDoran Hey @neilhimself can you signal boost? I just got banned from @facebook for this 1925 Zeigfeld Girl pic. Ridiculous! https://twitter.com/ColleenDoran/status/577242020990705665/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/577242020990705665)