2015-03-31 UTC
# 00:00 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks proposed it but I don't know if people have switched to using it as such
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# 00:01 JonathanNeal It’s the idea I first heard from KevinMarks. Human readable links to individual fragments of text.
# 00:02 kylewm this betterlink thing seems to misunderstand the point of fragmentions
# 00:02 KartikPrabhu no not really. Fragmention originally has double # convention. KevinMarks then added the idea to use only one # anyway since ids don't contain spaces anyway
# 00:02 kylewm I'm impressed they bought a .io domain and everything for it though
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# 00:03 kylewm KevinMarks: oh for real?? it saves the fragmention location in a central place?
# 00:03 KevinMarks there is sn argument for highlighting the exact text linked to
# 00:04 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks yes, but that is more of fragmention.js implementation (seems hard) rather than fragmention the proposal
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# 00:13 rascul after more looking, doesn't seem like a worthwhile alternative to fragmentions at all
# 00:17 JonathanNeal Concern: Fragmentions are not a valid URL due to ##. Solution: Drop the second #. Concern: Fragmentions target the element and not the selection itself. Solution: Why not allow for both? html[data-fragmention-selects="*"] or html[data-fragmention-elements="p h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6"] html[data-fragmention-selects=":text”]. Concern: Not All Browsers Play The
# 00:17 JonathanNeal Same. Solution: None, if irregularly spaced will not appear as you expect in old IE≤8 anyway.
# 00:18 Loqi JonathanNeal meant to say: Same. Solution: None, irregularly spaced will not appear as you expect in old IE≤8 anyway.
# 00:19 rascul problem with # vs ## is potential confusion with # anchors
# 00:19 rascul but if both were allowed, i don't see the issue
# 00:21 rascul uses fragmentions and has pointed several non indieweb people towards it, also
# 00:23 JonathanNeal rascul: fragmentions has long supported both, since KevinMark’s suggestion.
# 00:23 JonathanNeal I think allowing for element granularity on selections would be a nice improvement.
# 00:23 rascul good work on the fragmentions also, JonathanNeal
# 00:25 JonathanNeal So that there could be some way to say “select the nearest ancestor” versus “select the nearest paragraph ancestor” versus “select only the text”. This could help marginalia as well, since the styles often target particular sections or paragraphs of content already.
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# 00:29 JonathanNeal [data-fragmention=":text”] versus html[data-fragmention=“h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p”]
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# 00:30 JonathanNeal rascul: oh, I was saying the fragmention granularity could be defined by the page author.
# 00:31 rascul ahh, i guess maybe i'm not quite understanding how it could be implemented
# 00:31 rascul some of this stuff is over my head and i'm happy it just works ;)
# 00:32 JonathanNeal <html data-fragmention=“h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p”> … forces fragmentions to target the nearest h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, or p element that contains #some-text
# 00:33 rascul so it can be defined in the html where to target?
# 00:34 tantek JonathanNeal: now now you know better than to try to use data-* attributes as an API of sorts
# 00:34 tantek when that's expressly forbidden (or strongly discouraged?) by the spec
# 00:34 rascul i don't know that i can be bothered to define that all the time
# 00:34 rascul and when i do define it, what if that's not what the fragmention is supposed to target?
# 00:36 JonathanNeal I’m open to other suggestions. The goal is to control what text or element gets selected. Is it just the text (ala CTRL+F). Is it the nearest element (ala classic fragmentions), Is it the nearest section or paragraph (ala marginalia)?
# 00:37 rascul i don't have any suggestions, i'm mostly trying to understand and maybe help you figure it out :)
# 00:38 rascul i still prefer fragmentations to fragmentions though!
# 00:38 tantek rascul: fragmentations already have a meaning in CSS
# 00:39 rascul i just can't help but think of fragmentation grenades whenever i see fragmentions
# 00:40 rascul hrm maybe i'll finally update my ssl cert tonight heh
# 00:40 rascul doesn't look like i can hold out for letsencrypt.org without people complaining to me daily :(
# 00:40 kylewm tantek: I honestly don't think that is confusion, bupkes has been around here fairly recently
# 00:41 tantek even if bupkes isn't confused, that post reads like it is conflating it all
# 00:41 tantek thus it promotes (even if unintentionally) that confusion
# 00:43 tantek.com edited /ind.ie (+181) "/* ind.ie is not IndieWeb / IndieWebCamp */ fix heading to not require URL escaped chars, add subsection Examples of confusion and conflation" (
view diff )
# 00:45 tantek kylewm: indeed that was back when he thought he could hijack indieweb by rebranding it as indie tech
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# 00:46 kylewm also an interesting section on why he doesn't believe in developing iOS apps anymore
# 00:46 tantek kylewm: also from that blog post, the heading "2014: The Year of Indie Tech"
# 00:46 Loqi kylewm meant to say: also an ironic section on why he doesn't believe in developing iOS apps anymore
# 00:46 tantek what exactly "Indie Tech" happened in 2014 beyond IndieWeb? Anything?
# 00:46 tantek anything shipped? anything running on anyone's servers?
# 00:47 tantek what exactly "Indie Tech" happened in 2014 **beyond IndieWeb**? Anything?
# 00:47 tantek so basically, "Indie Tech" was a vaporware hype term that was meaningless in 2014
# 00:52 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: go for it. need something productive to focus on :)
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# 01:11 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: feel free to add it to the page!
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# 02:22 kylewm tantek: think an inquiry about mf2 on bbs (and maybe later webmentions) would be welcome/appropriate?
# 02:22 kylewm it's possible that "federation" is totally antithetical to that site's purpsoe
# 02:23 tantek hence why it's better to start with mf2 on there (so reply-contexts show their data well)
# 02:23 tantek then when we have examples of replies with reply-contexts of bbs, then we can say - hey - do you want these comments in real time? webmention can do that.
# 02:24 tantek they may be more open to supporting this tech because it takes weight off their shoulders to support more signups
# 02:25 tantek no problem - tell people to use their own website for now and send webmentions to comment on stuff ;)
# 02:31 kylewm it's also kind of overly humble that the bottom says "powered by digital ocean and twilio"
# 02:32 tantek it felt very calming to read the recent posts stream
# 02:32 tantek with the absence of so much as any UI widgetry
# 02:33 Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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# 02:39 KartikPrabhu does nayone know if MuSQL is slow with large DBs? My server is having queries last more than a minute and so are getting shut down
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# 02:43 tantek MultiUser SQL?!? Whatever will they think of next! ;)
# 02:44 kylewm like your website, or like some crazy physics data?
# 02:44 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: How "big"? I doubt your database is actually reaching a size that it would acuse problems, but indexing of columns (or lack of) can cause slow queries
# 02:44 gRegor` s/acuse/cause/
# 02:44 Loqi gRegor` meant to say: KartikPrabhu: How "big"? I doubt your database is actually reaching a size that it would cause problems, but indexing of columns (or lack of) can cause slow queries
# 02:45 gRegor` Just the one table in the query, or a join?
# 02:46 gRegor` Column data type is 'year' or a string?
# 02:47 gRegor` tantek backed too far :/
# 02:47 KartikPrabhu i think it might be due to running 2 dynamic websites on 512MB, both with DB stuff
# 02:48 gRegor` You could try a non-unique index on it, but yeah, ~200 isn't a lot of columns that I would normally expect to give that much delay.
# 02:48 gRegor` s/columns/rows/
# 02:48 Loqi gRegor` meant to say: You could try a non-unique index on it, but yeah, ~200 isn't a lot of rows that I would normally expect to give that much delay.
# 02:49 gRegor` Maybe check the memory usage of mysqld and apached (nginx, or whatever server is running)
# 02:50 gRegor` Is 1m the latency you're getting executing the query direct on the server, or time to deliver the page fully in browser?
# 02:51 gRegor` Huh. Interesting.
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# 02:55 kylewm KartikPrabhu: I have my site with probably like 10k entries and woodwind running on a 512mb server
# 03:03 ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu. Try your query with "describe" at the start of it. Will tell you what indexes it's using
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# 05:10 kylewm did we decide that adactio's "link" posts were essentially bookmarks?
# 05:14 tantek it is a good counterpoint to remember, that there are numerous (majority of?) people who previously had no voice on the web, but with Twitter etc. silos they have *some* voice
# 05:16 tantek but that's not because they didn't want their own website, it's because the silos improved UX to bring such expression to more people
# 05:19 tantek it's a good goal for hosted solutions like withknown.com
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# 06:57 kylewm !tell snarfed wow, the polling queue for bridgy says it has almost a thousand tasks in it; is that normal?
# 06:57 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 07:03 cweiske aaronpk, when a pubsubhubbub verification call times out, do you retry again in switchboard?
# 07:03 cweiske if not, do you send out a "denied" mode to the callback?
# 07:04 aaronpk No but that's a good idea, feel free to file an issue
# 07:04 aaronpk Right now switchboard is pretty bare bones but I want to add things like that to make it better
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# 07:13 cweiske i'm currently adding re-pinging to phubb for the case that the subscriber was not available when an update came in
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# 14:12 snarfed kylewm: lol, yup, those are evergreen tasks. one per active account
# 14:14 kylewm snarfed: I signed up a new instagram account last night and it took longer than I expected tho do the first poll
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# 14:19 kylewm snarfed: if it's > 10 minutes behind and adds a new polling task every 10 minutes, wouldn't it spiral out of control quickly?
# 14:20 snarfed heh, if it did, yes. it only adds the next task *in* the poll, though
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# 14:30 kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: you have both tags and categories in Postly?
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# 14:36 ben_thatmustbeme If I have something tagged "Indieweb" on my site, I make it a u-category with a link to the search for all posts that have that category
# 14:37 ben_thatmustbeme I'm not sure that having the ability to search for all things on my site tagged with tantek.com is something i really want
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# 14:52 tantek cweiske++ for all the work on pushing the edges of pubsubhubbub spec and finding the holes that are only found by implementing.
# 14:57 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean by "categories are actually enumerated" ?
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# 15:15 ben_thatmustbeme i have an ID for any category. I treat it like an object, so it can change system wide. I know, i know, plumbing
# 15:18 tantek is that a cache? optimization? or do you depend on it in storage?
# 15:21 tantek genuinely curious - I don't have an approach figured out for implementing tags/categories yet myself. Was going to start with "dumb" text search backwards in time to implement the "common" use case of clicking on a hashtag and seeing most recent results for it.
# 15:59 ben_thatmustbeme tantek, more of an optimization. Searching integers is must faster than string matching
# 16:00 ben_thatmustbeme I think I might just say the hell with it an allow for searches of say "all things tagged with tantek.com" on my site
# 16:01 ben_thatmustbeme The messier part right now is that i store webmentions, which create interactions which have a type (tag, mention, reply, like, etc)
# 16:02 ben_thatmustbeme but then interaction with type tag would have to have all duplicate information to the tag/category type
# 16:03 Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: i loathe duplicate information
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# 16:12 tantek you can have multiple tags (p-category or u-category), and you *could* have multiple "u-tag-of" but that really should be reserved for POSSE copies
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# 16:39 ben_thatmustbeme which honestly makes more sense, as its stored before and after approval (though I automatically approve them for now)
# 16:40 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I think that can be ok (some multiple copies) as long as you have a well defined algorithm for merging/de-duping them
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# 16:43 tantek Also important to document each *source* of such copies / duplicates, so that you can potentially fix it at the source(s) in the future.
# 16:44 ben_thatmustbeme thats not a property of a tag/category, but rather a tag/category as it relates to a post
# 16:46 tantek do we need to make area tags into their own objects?
# 16:47 tantek again, we should start with the display of area tags in a post, then what it is the ideal/sensible markup for it from the perspective of supporting that presentation, and *then* figure it how we can microformat it up.
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# 16:51 ben_thatmustbeme well this is about logical organization, the markup can change, but the concept that a person will be tagged in different locations within posts means that whatever that location is, cannot be stored with the person (assuming you extract out the tagged person as a category)
# 16:52 ben_thatmustbeme i'm not going to going to not focus on coords/shape so much, and just try to get things set up to do person tagging correctly first
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# 17:53 GWG Zachdonovan, thank you. I would love to have one
# 17:58 GWG zachdonovan: I'm out of town on Wednesday. How about coinciding with 04—22
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# 17:59 GWG That gives us time to try to recruit. Can you post venue details?
# 18:00 GWG Also gives time to figure out timing versus the PST people
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# 18:03 GWG Need to figure out how to do thst event invite bombing I see for other HWC events
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# 18:06 GWG Tantek, if you or anyone else have any suggestions for people to be personal with that I don't know personally..
# 18:06 GWG Cold calling has always been a weakness of mine
# 18:07 tantek cold calling does not work well for growing a community
# 18:08 tantek you need to reach out to personal connections
# 18:08 tantek GWG, you met plenty of people during IWC NYC - twice
# 18:08 tantek you should feel free to reach out to all pas attendees - as they'll remember you from in-person interaction
# 18:13 KevinMarks did someone here have a nice "x minutes/hours/days ago" algorithm for python?
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# 18:20 GWG Tantek, inviting you is cheating right?
# 18:22 tantek GWG, I'm serious, go back to past Guest Lists and add people
# 18:22 tantek heck, add people from IWC Cambridge since that's not *that* far
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# 18:26 GWG Tantek, I was more commenting on the fact that you appear at more IWC events than anyone else, it seems
# 18:27 GWG I intend to make the updates when I can. Likely tonight.
# 18:29 GWG I wonder if Loqi could be taught to answer the question, where in the world is tantek?
# 18:30 zachdonovan if someone would give that a look and reassure me that I haven't done anything fantastically wrong-headed, I'd be much obliged :)
# 18:31 zachdonovan I just copy-pasted the commented out Chicago example and update all of the fields.
# 18:40 kylewm which means they look less good than they should in Woodwind
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# 18:44 kylewm aaronpk uses "p-bookmark h-cite", shaners sets the u-url of the post to the bookmarked thing, I have used "u-bookmark-of h-cite" up to now
# 18:46 tantek kylewm: looks like mozsf big room is booked for the 8th. what do you think of doing The Creamery for that date for HWC SF?
# 18:46 kylewm tantek: that would be fine with me, i can create an event this afternoon/evening
# 18:46 Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is primarily comprised of a URL, often title text from that URL, sometimes optional text describing, tagging, or quoting from its contents https://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
# 18:49 kylewm (they probably both want to change to u-bookmark)
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# 18:51 tantek kylewm: that's probably WHY adactio has no mf2 property for the target of the actual link
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# 18:53 tantek (as in expand based on what you'd expect with u-bookmark-of - and hopefully what you publish with redwind!)
# 19:22 KevinMarks tantek, are you saying my <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://tantek.com/">Tantek Çelik</a> is now wrong
# 19:23 tantek KevinMarks: I'm saying you should update that to u-category h-card :)
# 19:23 tantek I think this all started from kylewm raising the issue about how u- vs p- properties with objects worked and the "value" field
# 19:24 KevinMarks "properties": { "category": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Tantek \u00c7elik" ], "url": [ "http:\/\/tantek.com\/" ] }, "value": "Tantek \u00c7elik" }
,
# 19:28 KevinMarks I changed it (just on yours at the top) and pin13 parses it the same
# 19:34 tantek which is what you are tagging with, the entire object, not just a text string
# 19:35 KevinMarks not necessarily in this case as many of the URLs are derived from twitter
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# 19:38 tantek if someone's URL does not have an h-card for them at it, then you have to create a proxy h-card on your own site for person-tags of them
# 19:38 tantek that too was discussed either yesterday or the day before
# 19:39 KevinMarks <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://stellar.org">Jed McCaleb</a>
# 19:39 KevinMarks <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://stellar.org">joyce kim</a>
# 19:39 tantek so that's your markup error then for associating the URL with their name
# 19:40 tantek perhaps only do such associations where there is a rel-me bidirectional?
# 19:41 tantek your proxy h-card should contain whatever information you have about them
# 19:42 KevinMarks I can see it making sense to have a list of speakers at the top with more fleshed out hcards, like a panel page
# 19:43 KevinMarks joyce kim is <a class="h-card " href="http://stellar.org">joyce kim</a>
# 19:45 KevinMarks so, in your theoretical world, I shoudl pull in her whole twitter bio and photo and cache it on my site as she links to a non-h-card URL from it?
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# 19:46 tantek if someone has a bad h-card or lacks one, you have to make one yourself to reference
# 19:47 tantek since silo profile URLs are so fragile, we should not use them for person-tagging
# 19:47 tantek especially twitter URLs since they can change as we discussed at last week's HWC
# 19:48 tantek though I suppose you could use the "intent" URLs we discussed
# 19:48 tantek if your code is automatically getting her site URL from Twitter, it could also get her userid and turn that into an intent URL instead
# 19:48 tantek which at least wouldn't break if she changed her usename
# 19:48 Loqi tantek meant to say: which at least wouldn't break if she changed her username
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# 20:06 KevinMarks I am live-transcribing a conf session. I can usually geta twitter handel for people 'cos they list them
# 20:06 KevinMarks I don't usually have time to create a whoel hcard for them by googling them
# 20:07 tantek KevinMarks: hence I suggested the intent profile URL as discussed last week at HWC since that has an hCard!
# 20:07 KevinMarks even if I did, the presumption that their hcard would be a standalone page on my site does not fit this usecase
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# 20:08 KevinMarks that does make sense, but would work lass well for the HWC case
# 20:08 Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: that does make sense, but would work less well for the HWC case
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# 20:26 kylewm KartikPrabhu: is your MySQL still having problems after restart?
# 20:27 KartikPrabhu haven't looked into it yet. also should figure out how to restart the MySQL thingie
# 20:27 kylewm oh I thought you said your provider shut it down
# 20:27 KartikPrabhu they kill that particular DB request. not the whole MySQL engine thing
# 20:34 ben_thatmustbeme hmm, tantek, with the change over from p-bookmark to u-bookmark and p-category to u-category, I should assume that any class on an <a> tag should be u- not p- correct?
# 20:34 KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: since you asked this is the offending query SELECT DISTINCT CAST(DATE_FORMAT(CONVERT_TZ(`bundle_note`.`pub_date`, 'UTC', 'America/Chicago'), '%Y-%m-01 00:00:00') AS DATETIME) FROM `bundle_note` WHERE `bundle_note`.`pub_date` <= '2015-03-31 01:44:30' ORDER BY 1 DESC LIMIT 1
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# 20:35 tantek it's only for cases where you have an embedded object
# 20:36 KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: yeah TZ maybe it and also I am not controlling the query my framework thingie is. I don't speak SQL
# 20:38 ben_thatmustbeme the way that query is written it has to store all the output of the query temporarily, then update them to the local TZ, THEN find only unique values within that
# 20:40 KartikPrabhu <sigh> I am contemplating pre-rendering a version of that page and updating it on change
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# 20:49 kylewm still, it's only 300 posts; i can't imagine anything would take > a minute
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# 20:56 KartikPrabhu these are the sort of pain points that need to be eliminated if we want people to ditch silos
# 20:56 ben_thatmustbeme well, silos had to deal with these same issues, these are the issues that software developers have to deal with
# 20:56 KartikPrabhu Known goes a long way, but more such easy to use indieweb solutions are needed
# 20:57 tantek this is where I call into question database/queries in terms of scaling again
# 20:57 tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm *displaying* 127 posts on my home page in < 1s (nevermind the "query" to retrieve them from "storage")
# 20:58 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I don't buy the adaptability argument, from all the hand-wringing over changing schemas I keep hearing about
# 20:59 KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: like I have to learn MySQL to make it efficient, but I can change my python code much more easily
# 20:59 ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I would be doing the same if I were doing it with flat files. What folder do i store non-objects? how do I store webmentions? etc
# 21:00 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's not any easier with a DB. s/folder/table :P
# 21:00 ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu, I find MySQL is worse for that, postgreSQL is much nicer and actually follows correct theoritical SQL
# 21:01 KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: again, I didn't know theoretical SQL when I started this
# 21:02 ben_thatmustbeme exact same trouble. but select * from WHERE .... and if your model is correct, changing one line of a where clause can get you any method of slicing you want, which will be faster than parsing flat files to find what you want
# 21:03 ben_thatmustbeme most now just contain all that in a single format to keep external changes to files from breaking indexes
# 21:03 ben_thatmustbeme you can build an index if you want in flat files, but it will be really messy and inefficient
# 21:03 tantek the difference is that at least in this iteration of flat files, we're using an open format in the flat files
# 21:03 tantek which makes the actual storage files more portable
# 21:03 tantek rather than DB files which are bound to a specific DB, and even versions thereof
# 21:04 tantek either way you need to do indexing separately!
# 21:04 tantek haven't needed any indexing yet, haven't wasted time coding it yet
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# 21:06 ben_thatmustbeme or better yet, how do you get only your posts that are articles (your recent articles links) ?
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# 21:42 gRegor` What is Falcon
# 21:42 Loqi Falcon is a personal publishing (tweeting, blogging, realtime syndicating) web application. There is an instance of Falcon running at tantek.com and serving/syndicating notes, articles, and occasionally other types of posts https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon
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# 21:51 KartikPrabhu ok removed an unecessary filtering step, lets see if I get another email. now to stare at math
# 22:02 kylewm Free tier will be limited to 12 hours/day, they are introducing a new Hobby tier for $7 a month
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# 22:36 gRegor` kylewm: That probably explains why a friend tweeted that he needs to get his butt in gear to move off Heroku
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# 23:25 tantek ben_thatmustbeme: re: how do you get only your posts that are articles - I read into memory one entire storage bim file at a time, and then look backwards in time through those posts until I find enough of the type of post I am looking for.
# 23:25 tantek so if there a three blog posts in the most recent bim - it's one file read
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# 23:29 kylewm tantek: if you wanted to display an /articles feed with more articles, I don't think some sort of index would be a premature optimization there
# 23:29 Loqi silo quits are public statements by individuals announcing they have publicly quit posting on or using (at all) various silos, either with intended permanence, or temporarily (sometimes referred to as taking a "social media break") https://indiewebcamp.com/silo-quits
# 23:29 tantek kylewm: I'd say the optimization would be premature until you have measured perf > 1s display time
# 23:29 kylewm when I was doing file storage, I added a big index for looking up posts by tag
# 23:30 kylewm but the index itself was quite large and took a non-trivial amount of time to read
# 23:30 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it seems IndieAuth is not doing the redirect properly. logging into a page redirects to wiki homepage after authorization
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# 23:32 tantek (aside: based on like decades of experience, optimzing for minimizing file I/O is a great place to start with perf - as that's almost always the first-order perf bottleneck for anything - I/O)
# 23:34 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 23:44 kylewm tantek_: ok sounds good re hwc events; and yes I had one file per post
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