#indiewebcamp 2015-04-24

2015-04-24 UTC
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kylewm GWG: it ellipsizes them and adds a permalink
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GWG kylewm: I have trouble avoiding the ellipsis
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kylewm here's what it looks like when you're > 140 chars https://twitter.com/barryf/status/579415343925329920
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@barryf This week, while in Boston, I'm pleased to have finally attended my first #indiewebcamp. Two days of sharing,… (https://barryfrost.com/2015/03/this-week-while-in-boston-i) (twitter.com/_/status/579415343925329920)
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GWG I know....but even when I think I am not...
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kylewm ?
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GWG My current tool seemed to cut me off
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GWG I need a Twitter test
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Loqi slack/snarfed: GWG: try bridgy publish preview?
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GWG snarfed: But how do I do that in an integrated manner?
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kylewm GWG: would a character counter be good enough?
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kylewm cassis.js + a little bit of glue code can give you a very accurate count
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GWG I have that built in, but then when the current software added the link...it truncated things...that is why I want to make it more customizable.
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kylewm I would guess the builtin count doesn't account for twitter t.co link shortening though?
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GWG kylewm: Yes. I don't want to deal with the people at SNAP.
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GWG I'm surprised there isn't a universal...send to any network API.
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tantek___ good evening #indiewebcamp
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GWG Good evening, tantek___.
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tantek___ GWG - yes there are a few functions to use to do character counting in #cassis.js
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tantek___ it depends on what kind of UI you want
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tantek___ alright off for now
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GWG Simple
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kylewm GWG: yeah, I'm excited about the possibility of using Convoy from outside of Known for that
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kylewm GWG: these three lines use cassis for character counting in redwind: https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/templates/admin/edit_post.jinja2#L109
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GWG kylewm: That's an option?
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kylewm I think it might be, eventually
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GWG Well, you know who you can prevail upon to support it
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GWG kylewm: What I want is a black box to send test posts into and see how they will render on Twitter and Facebook using Bridgy Publish without spamming my account.
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kylewm that's an interesting idea
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GWG It should be possible.
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kylewm well, of course it's possible
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GWG Bridgy can render previews.
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GWG Why can't there be a test page?
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kylewm how would the test page be different from the preview that's already there?
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GWG One page for all services, instead of having to go to multiple pages looking for a preview.
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kylewm oh, that would be a very large change unfortunately
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GWG It would? Hmm...
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kylewm there's only twitter and facebook though, that's not so hard?
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GWG I know. I'll figure it out.
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GWG To do it well, I'd need a p-summary and better names, it looks like
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kylewm haha yeah i've noticed your names are odd
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kylewm (they show up in my reader)
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GWG kylewm: The new post creation UI I wrote earlier this month puts the time in as the post slug...
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GWG How are they odd?
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kylewm GWG: the most recent ones were random-looking numbers?
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GWG kylewm: Time stamp.
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GWG I haven't gotten to figuring out how to decide what it is automatically.
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kylewm is it possible for an Apache RewriteRule to result in just a success code with no content?
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kylewm ugh, no that's no good
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kylewm trying to find a way programmatically to tell if apache is set to "AllowOverride None"
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kylewm thinking I can stick a rewrite rule to rewrite /test-allow-override to /allow-override-success or something along those lines, but that will break nginx compatibility unless every nginx user adds that silly rule to their config too
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KevinMarks_ previewing a tweet would be handy
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KevinMarks_ not sure if you can do it with @benward's embed code as that replaces the text you give it with that from the published tweet
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KevinMarks_ noterlive uses cassis.js to measure length and gives you a countdown warning
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KevinMarks_ even twitter web doesn't preview fully though
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KevinMarks_ could you embed the previous tweet with the official embed code and then mung the text in it?
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GWG For now, I think I'm going to just play until I make things work a bit better
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KevinMarks_ you know that the embeeded tweets are marked up wiht mf2?
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GWG They are? Twitter didn't seem that progressive.
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KevinMarks_ benward++
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Loqi benward has 1 karma
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KevinMarks_ they're in an iframe so you can't get to them easily, but they are microformatted with h-entry etc
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KevinMarks_ though I think some u- prefixes are from another template lang
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KevinMarks_ <span class="u-hiddenInWideEnv">
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KevinMarks_ so in answer to my question, no you can't mung the contents of that iframe because it is on twitters website
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KevinMarks_ is now revrese engineering the ifraem tweet preview
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tantek !tell GWG I now regularly use Bridgy Pub in Falcon for POSSEing likes of tweets to Twitter favorites.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Message received
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 25 seconds ago: I now regularly use Bridgy Pub in Falcon for POSSEing likes of tweets to Twitter favorites. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-23/line/1429850477839
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tantek :)
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GWG I have to figure out how to get things working well.
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KevinMarks_ OK, noterlive.com now has twitter preview
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KevinMarks_ feel free to pinch it for your own apps that post to twitter
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KevinMarks Take a look at @sirbonar's Tweet: https://twitter.com/sirbonar/status/591493788717027329?s=09
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@sirbonar The problem with people, I have decided, is that they are essentially silos. (twitter.com/_/status/591493788717027329)
Jihaisse, elima, eschnou, loic_m, KevinMarks__, KartikPrabhu, alexhartley, sammachin, martinBrown_, csarven, almereyda, stream7, KevinMarks, martinBrown, interactivist, Pierre-O, alexhart_ and slvrbckt joined the channel
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slvrbckt hi all, i've been planning to go to IWC dusseldorf in a few weeks, got a plane ticket and accommodation, etc. however i just noticed theres a link on the wiki to register, which goes to btconf, which is sold out...
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slvrbckt is there a way to register for just the camp? (9-10 May)
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slvrbckt n/m got it all sorted out:)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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edsu waves
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GWG Good morning.
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KartikPrabhu hello
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inkdroid.org edited /2015/DC (+147) "/* IndieWebCampDC 2015 */" (view diff)
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inkdroid.org created /User:Inkdroid.org (+624) "Created page with "Hi I'm Ed Summers. I'm a software developer working at the [http://mith.umd.edu Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities]. I'm interested in the Web as an archive. I'..."" (view diff)
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inkdroid.org edited /User:Inkdroid.org (+99) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu edsu: welcome! the best way to start a HWC is to find one more person and start it
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edsu KartikPrabhu: hey :) i'm in DC and noticing that some planning did start but seemed to stall https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/DC
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edsu KartikPrabhu: i'm going to get in touch with them and see if there's still interest
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inkdroid.org edited /User:Inkdroid.org (+29) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu edsu: awesome. mostly Indiewebcamps (IWC) happen once a year, and Homebrew Website clubs (HWC) happen once every 2 weeks
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edsu KartikPrabhu: oh gotcha, so I guess starting a HWC would be much more practical
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KartikPrabhu yes. HWCs are shorter and so are good to get going first to gauge interest etc...
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@edsu @kinlane @rascul3 @timmmmyboy I saw your names at https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/DC do you have any interest in kicking off a DC HomebrewWebsiteClub? (twitter.com/_/status/591616104520364032)
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edsu that Loqi sure pays attention to things :)
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Loqi grins profusely
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@edsu @konklone starting to wonder if a Homebrew Website Club might fit better? https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club (twitter.com/_/status/591619160578379776)
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Loqi [mention] felix schwenzel liked a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/like (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7609/1/6/)
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kylewm need some advice. I'm trying to track down why superfeedr is getting json instead of html from Known sites. Turns out they send an Accept header "application/atom+xml,application/rdf+xml,application/rss+xml,application/xml,text/xml,application/json,*/*"
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kylewm we cant tell if it can be considered a bug in superfeedr or not...
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KartikPrabhu do KNown sites have the other formats?
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kylewm based on this http://documentation.superfeedr.com/subscribers.html#adding-feeds-with-pubsubhubbub ... the "format" parameter specifically, I think I should be able to set Accept: text/html in the subscribe request
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: yeah, lots of formats. even dogeon
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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kylewm http://known.kylewm.com/content/all/?_t=dogeon
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KartikPrabhu lol
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distresssignal.org edited /2015/DC (+185) "/* IndieWebCampDC 2015 */" (view diff)
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distresssignal.org edited /2015/DC (+43) "/* IndieWebCampDC 2015 */" (view diff)
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kylewm OK I emailed @julien51 that I think Superfeedr is doing the right thing by default, but that there might be a problem with the documentation if I cannot influence the accept headers it sends to my subscription target
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kylewm eep "you're pointing to the 'subscriber' docs, which are for... our paying subscribers so they do not apply to your use case."
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KartikPrabhu well there you go! only JSON for you
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kylewm kind of makes me feel bad. I wasn't trying to be a freeloader because I'm cheap, I was trying to follow/test/help improve the PuSH spec
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu maybe they have a dev account type thing...?
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tantek edsu: welcome!!
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edsu tantek: thanks :) :)
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tantek edsu: re: HWC or IWC - I'd say go for planning both in parallel - as they take very different kinds of planning
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "update!" (view diff)
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tantek if you can find even just one person to co-organize an HWC - make it happen on May 6th https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-05-06-homebrew-website-club
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tantek pick a venue that works for you both, add DC as a city to the above URL, and then just follow https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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edsu nice, i like that idea ; /me checks calendar
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GWG If there are only 2-3 of you...food venues seem nice
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GWG I'm thinking of proposing a switch to one
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tantek edsu - and then I'd say start thinking about if you want to hold an IndieWebCamp DC either sometime in June, i.e. before the main IWC 2015 (July 11-12), or after, or simultaneous with.
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edsu is the july 11-12 from last year?
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edsu is this the next main one? https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc
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tantek this year upcoming
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edsu oh ok ; is that in portland?
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tantek Germany is the next "local" IWC
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edsu i like the idea of gauging interest, and getting a core group together by putting on a HWC
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tantek yes - the annual main IWC is every year in Portland, and last year we did simultaneous IWCs in NYC and Berlin as well
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edsu yes, i think i remember that going on - you are doing some super work
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edsu you = all of you :)
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tantek this is a pretty amazing community. really proud of everyone here.
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tantek KevinMarks_: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-23/line/1429783759803 - no fragmentions do not / should not imply quote-of - based on existing data/usage - fragmentions are mostly replies (e.g. see Kartik's examples) and some mentions.
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tantek and now I'm leaning towards u-quote-from > u-quote-of because *quote-from* only implies the quote is from (some part of) a post, rather than *quote-of* implies its a quote of the whole post, which we already had repost-of for.
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tantek context: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-23#t1429778935105
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tantek edsu: p.s. now that you're here and signed into the wiki, add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so that you show up all nice and linked up in the logs :)
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GWG Snarfed, you use Wordpress, what do you put in the title box?
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GWG My first problem with Bridgy publish and Twitter is the title field.
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tantek edsu: and another thing - have you seen / what do you think of owark.org? http://tantek.com/2011/209/t3/oscon-web-archives-sites-you-link-to-owark-indieweb
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@LukasRosenstock @SocialTM @Ibo Ich finde eure Profile passen gut zur #Indieweb-Idee, idealerweise solltet ihr noch microformats2 (z.B. rel="me") verwenden. (twitter.com/_/status/591651298577088514)
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inkdroid.org edited /IRC_People (+118) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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snarfed GWG: hmm, i need more context. you mean the title of my wordpress posts? a normal title for articles, nothing for notes
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GWG Snarfed, kylewm was commenting his feed reader noticed when ny title was a random number. Also Bridgy Publish does.
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edsu tantek: i hadn't seen owark.org before ; but thanks for pointing me at it ; that's the only way forward imho
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snarfed GWG: sounds like your theme is rendering the post id somewhere that the mf2 parser interprets as the title?
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snarfed try pin13 etc
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edsu tantek: this idea that brewster is going to save it for everyone is extremely generous, but it isn't fair for us to put him in that position
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GWG Snarfed, I can fix that. But my concern is that if I do write Bridgy Publish code, it would be incredibly dependant on the theme structure.
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edsu tantek: just noticing that's from 2011! maybe i have seen it before, and it became part of my thinking at some point :)
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GWG Hmm.. Maybe the solution is to embed a p-summary, even if the theme doesn't.
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tantek edsu see also indiewebcamp.com/indiearchive
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edsu tantek: awesome, thanks ; are you following ipfs.io at all?
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bret edsu: i run it :)
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edsu bret: :-) !
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edsu bret: i was hoping there would be crossover
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bret not really directly, other than it lets you p2p big media to a webpage
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bret i'm interested in writing a scrip that boostraps public gateways onto ipfs links
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bret hvaen't had time though, crossing my fingers someone else will do it
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edsu you are working on node implementation for ipfs?
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bret nah, it would rely on the ipfs http gateways
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bret a native js ipfs client would be even cooler though
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@elfpavlik @kat_damian check out https://indieauth.com #OAuth2 with SMS support! @aaronpk see https://mobileconnect.io/ by @GSMA https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/591666119808790528/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/591666119808790528)
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zachdonovan afternoon all!
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zachdonovan kylewm: is there a precedent for handling an empty page in redwind?
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kylewm zachdonovan: do you mean like https://kylewm.com/tags/nothinghere
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zachdonovan yes, exactly like that :)
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kylewm i just try not to have errors in those cases, you are looking at the all_tags issue?
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zachdonovan yep!
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zachdonovan I currently have it redirecting back to the home page with a flash saying there's no content on that page right now
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zachdonovan but I don't like that at all
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kylewm oh ha
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zachdonovan I'll make it an empty page
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kylewm actually I should probably return a 404 for that empty tag page
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kylewm but all_tags could just be empty
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zachdonovan I'll whip something up tonight.
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@edsu @BryanSchuetz noticed your name at https://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people do you have any interest in starting a dc homebrew website club? (twitter.com/_/status/591671252793831424)
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elf-pavlik fkooman https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/47
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Loqi elf-pavlik: kylewm left you a message 1 day ago: were you ever able to connect to woodwind with indiecert? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-23/line/1429814251956
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elf-pavlik kylewm same issue :( fkooman please try http://reader.kylewm.com/
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kylewm elf-pavlik: fkooman: https://reader.kylewm.com please. it won't work with http://
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elf-pavlik kylewm worked... almost - same issue as webmention.io i just linked I use https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper NOT https://wwelves.org/ !
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fkooman kylewm, it seems to work! :)
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elf-pavlik but you fixed the HTTP redirect issue kylewm++
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kylewm oh! thank you, I will file an issue to fix non-root path handling
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: does monocle work with your login?
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elf-pavlik haven't tried yet
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fkooman kylewm, and also root path handling... :) my identifier should be https://tuxed.net/ :)
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aaronpk i should probably set up my own indieauth ID that has a path just for testing
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fkooman and not "tuxed.net"...
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Loqi I agree
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fkooman aaronpk, i can login again with indieauth.com with my domain, somehow it started working. webmention.io is also not using distributed indieauth
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elf-pavlik aaronpk it didn't do distributed and used indieauth.com instead of indiecert.net
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aaronpk webmention.io is just letting indieauth.com handle it right now, so until I add support for indieauth.com querying your authorization_endpoint that is correct
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elf-pavlik but my identity looks ok - wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper
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elf-pavlik why it removes https?
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aaronpk it might just be removing it when displaying to you
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aaronpk also https should be assumed
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aaronpk yes, in the DB your ID has https
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fkooman maybe enforce https ;-)
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elf-pavlik cool!
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aaronpk i'm definitely tempted to force https
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elf-pavlik so i can't use webmention.io for now with https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper ?
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elf-pavlik kylewm++ for doing distributed IndieAuth on https://reader.kylewm.com/
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Loqi kylewm has 160 karma
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: yeah right now webmention.io assumes top-level domain logins
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aaronpk if you want, I can hack it for you
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elf-pavlik aaronpk no rush but great if before IWC Dusseldorf :)
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aaronpk webmention.io doesn't do a lot with accounts/login right now, that "create account" step was really just so I didn't have to create user accounts in the DB manually
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elf-pavlik i will just add rel="webmention" for now to HTML version of my page pointing to webmention.io
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: for now you can use wwelves.org-perpetual-tripper as your ID
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aaronpk so https://webmention.io/wwelves.org-perpetual-tripper/webmention
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elf-pavlik thx!
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elf-pavlik i would also add webmention link to HTTP header but don't have URI to do it correctly ;)
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aaronpk good thing it's not required to add an HTTP header for webmention to work
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elf-pavlik i will also need full URI to add it to application/ld+json and text/turtle versions of my website ...
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elf-pavlik curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ | grep webmention
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aaronpk yay
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Loqi giggles
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elf-pavlik aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 781 karma
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elf-pavlik knew that Loqi sums up karma from different channels and servers
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Loqi woot!
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kylewm Pubsubhubbub question -- if you want to send pings for both an RSS feed, and your h-feed, would you use a different topic for each and send two pings for every update?
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aaronpk the RSS feed is a different URL from the h-feed so yes?
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kylewm so you should really be sending pings for every feed, /articles, /notes, /tags/python, etc.?
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aaronpk i do that
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kylewm (i mean, obviously only when they update)
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aaronpk when I publish a note that is tagged, I end up sending 3 pings: / /notes /tag/whatev
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kylewm that's excellent, i thought i was going to be able to fix Known's pubsubbing real quick, but sounds like doing it right wll be more involved
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elf-pavlik kylewm, should I create similar issue for woodwind? https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/47
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kylewm elf-pavlik: sure that would be great!
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aaronpk is #ownyourcloud a thing?
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aaronpk not really, huh
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kylewm elf-pavlik++ thanks!
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Loqi elf-pavlik has 17 karma
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elf-pavlik https://owncloud.org/
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aaronpk i meant the hashtag
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elf-pavlik aaronpk slvrbckt just booked his travel and stay for IWC on May 9-10 in Dusseldorf. have you looked at http://sockethub.org/ ? he currently updates it to AS2.0
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aaronpk oh yeah i've seen that before
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elf-pavlik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU4PZK48-dg
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elf-pavlik AFAIK he pretty much got POSSE for IRC and same API which one can also use for XMPP (which already does POSSE in a way in contrast to IRC)
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elf-pavlik kylewm, how can i keep list of my subscriptions on my website? https://reader.kylewm.com/subscriptions
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kylewm elf-pavlik: TBD
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kylewm probably something with rel-following? http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-follower#follower_and_following
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elf-pavlik hmmm... for me follow != subscription i can follow you and subscribe to multiple channels you publish
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elf-pavlik in next days i plan to experiment with drawing graph diagrams to model Subscription I already did some for Following https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab#qualified-relation
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elf-pavlik e.g. g+ feed and youtube channel
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elf-pavlik follow Agent - Agent
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elf-pavlik subscribe Agent - Channel/Feed
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elf-pavlik Also me and many other people see benefits with defining just one directed relation and than use rel & rev to distinguish direction
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kylewm I thought rev was deprecated?
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elf-pavlik e.g. rel="follows" and rev="follows" instead of rel="follower" and rel="following"
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kylewm https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/link#attr-rev
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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elf-pavlik IMO stuff like that comes out when one tries to do more complex query on social data, I also haven't seen any non trivial querying in context of IndieWeb
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elf-pavlik query I would see average - friends of my friends who live in Paris and offer hosting on a couch
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kylewm well I agree that one-directional relationships are useful (following vs. friends), the semantics are above my pay grade :p
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tantek elf-pavlik: even FB shutdown their social graph search
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elf-pavlik tantek do you know why?
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tantek which allowed stuff like that
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tantek I'd guess it was too edge case - used by too few people
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elf-pavlik i used it a lot to see who i can ask for couch while moving around europe a lot
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kylewm I noticed that http://neo4j.com/ moved in near my office
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tantek so not worth architecting for
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elf-pavlik well many not for blogging needs
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elf-pavlik s/many/manbe/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: well manbe not for blogging needs
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elf-pavlik s/many/maybe/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: s/maybe/manbe/
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KartikPrabhu lol
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elf-pavlik slept just 4 hours and then all day at http://apidaysberlin2015.apistrat.com/
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tantek elf-pavlik: maybe not for general social web needs either - hence FB shut it down
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elf-pavlik i would like to find out why they shut it down
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elf-pavlik many services focused on *doing* things and not just online *talking* need some more querying capacity
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elf-pavlik i think we will focus in Social WG to some extent on IRL events
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: a real use-case of "doing things" vs "talking" ?
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu e.g. one linked from https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues/2
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KartikPrabhu seems like talking to me
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elf-pavlik very early draft of possible way to model various relevant pieces of data https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Travel
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elf-pavlik it has some spacial and temporal requirements
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tantek elf-pavlik: more history here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Graph_Search
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elf-pavlik from city to city on particular dates
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elf-pavlik arranging an actual IRL travel vs. talking about cool travel destinations
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GWG tantek: When you use Bridgy Publish to Twitter, do you use p-summary or e-content?
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tantek elf-pavlik: do you have an example post we can look at ?
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tantek neither - I only use Bridgy Publish to POSSE likes of tweets as Twitter favorites, thus it only needs "u-like-of"
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elf-pavlik I work on creating 'Wish>Demand' type posts before Social F2F in Paris for all I included in https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Wishlist_and_Attributions
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GWG tantek: I'm trying to get notes POSSEd.
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elf-pavlik modeling it similar to Question/Answer as used in services like http://stackoverflow.com/
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tantek GWG - I wrote all my POSSE code by hand, except for a PHP Twitter library and PHP OAuth library
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elf-pavlik and I see strong need to *filter* out not relevant to me questions (or wishes) so i don't get spammed
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GWG tantek: When I was commenting last night, I was trying to see who used Bridgy for 100% of their POSSEing.
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tantek well I use Bridgy Publish for 100% of my POSSEing of "like" posts of tweets!
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GWG But not 100% of all tweets
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elf-pavlik similar with some basic automated matching "my friends in paris offer couches to stay and friends coming for event ask for it" - my system should highlight to me possibility of connecting their Offers and Demands (Questions and Answers)
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GWG My question yesterday was 100% of all tweets and so on
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kylewm GWG: to be fair, tantek was precise http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-23/line/1429850477839
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GWG He was, but I'm still looking for someone who does everything
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kylewm I think snarfed mentioned several?
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kylewm gregor, barryf
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elf-pavlik i keep wwelves.org - worldwide elves to provide sometimes soon way to people to help with such matching of wishes :)
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GWG kylewm: Still not sure about the 100% part. Although what it can't do is important to me too
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elf-pavlik but one can think of it as Q/A to keep it simpler and use http://stackoverflow.com/ as example of similar existing functionality
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tantek GWG, by everything, do you mean posts all kinds to a specific silo? or 100% of posts of a specific type to all of their silos? or all kinds of posts to all silos?
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GWG tantek: 100% of all POSSEing to a silo being done.
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tantek because for example, to POSSE likes to FB, you have to do that manually :/
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: again doesn't explain to me why one needs some "querying", as I see, a post, comment system seems to work
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KartikPrabhu and on Twitter to POSSE likes of a non-tweet is not possible through Bridgy
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the Question post type can potentially have up/down voting by others
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tantek of the answers
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tantek which is common on stackoverflow and other such systems
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tantek and then the "comments" get sorted by most # of votes rather than by time order
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tantek deliberately
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KartikPrabhu possibly
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tantek what is a question?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "question" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=question&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-24%2Fline%2F1429906768362
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GWG Well, let me narrow my field for now.
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KartikPrabhu but it is still a post, comment system... not some abstract query model
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KartikPrabhu GWG: good idea
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GWG Is anyone using Bridgy Publish to POSSE notes and articles specifically?
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GWG I haven't gotten to likes/favorites/etc. in my attempt to improve my POSSE experience
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tantek question is a post type for soliciting [[answer]] replies, which are then typically up/down voted by others and then displayed underneath the question post ordered by highest positive vote count rather than time ordered.
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loqi.me created /question (+247) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-24/line/1429906768362 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KartikPrabhu I use bridgy publish to POSSE
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KartikPrabhu what is answer?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "answer" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=answer&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-24%2Fline%2F1429906861943
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zachdonovan wow. Wiki is getting DEEP
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GWG Hello, zachdonovan
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zachdonovan greetings, GWG!
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zachdonovan a pleasure to meet you in person on Wednesday, by the by
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GWG zachdonovan: Nice meeting you the other night. You beat me to saying it
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zachdonovan haha, glad the feeling was mutual!
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GWG You are also the only person who has seen my current project
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tantek.com edited /question (+466) "why, how, examples, see also" (view diff)
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zachdonovan well, I can authoritatively say, then, that everyone is very impressed.
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elf-pavlik tantek++
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Loqi dude
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GWG zachdonovan: Except me. I think I can do better
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GWG I always think I can do better
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tantek.com edited /Quora (+40) "linky linky, see also" (view diff)
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tantek answer is a post type that is a [[reply]] to a [[question]] post; it's not clear whether answer needs to be its own post type, or if simple reply posts will suffice, thus if you're implementing answer posts, just start with implementing replies.
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loqi.me created /answer (+272) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-24/line/1429906861943 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, how does the system tell difference between Wish (Demand or Offer), Question or Answer and status update like 'i just ate pizza'?
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elf-pavlik keeping multiple languages in mind
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tantek.com created /StackOverflow (+28) "canonical name" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: similar to how it distiniguishes notes and article?
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elf-pavlik how does it? (while both sound much more similar as far as i understand them)
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tantek.com created /Stack_Overflow (+185) "stub" (view diff)
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elf-pavlik http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types
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KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: quoting from that article you just linked to "display differences can be inferred from properties of the post."
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tantek elf-pavlik: if you know of any other silos that support Question/Answer type posts - please add them to: https://indiewebcamp.com/question#Silo_Examples Thanks!
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elf-pavlik wilco!
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tantek reads the article KartikPrabhu is talking about
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tantek oh right, Amy's post
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KartikPrabhu yup
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elf-pavlik does IndieWeb / Microformats also use *multiple* types on entities?
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elf-pavlik e.g. "@type": ["Book", "Product"]
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: not yet needed for anything
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tantek elf-pavlik: yes, using multivalued class names
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KartikPrabhu also that ^
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tantek s/names/attributes
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Loqi tantek meant to say: elf-pavlik: yes, using multivalued class attributes
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KartikPrabhu for a post that can be a like and a reply etc...
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elf-pavlik tantek can you link to or write an example?
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tantek elf-pavlik: that example however is incorrect, as the Book would be the *item* of the Product
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tantek they are not at the same level
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elf-pavlik also when it comes to inferring type from properties - http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_properties
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GWG So, this is the Quick Post page I showed zachdonovan the other night. Anyone have any suggestions? https://cdn1.shanske.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screenshot-from-2015-04-24-162710.png
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tantek elf-pavlik: the one concrete example where we ended up using this microformats was hNews which was the same as an hAtom hentry with more properties
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GWG Here's the note version: https://cdn1.shanske.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screenshot-from-2015-04-24-162717.png
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tantek e.g. see http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews#Schema
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aaronpk hey good news! I'll be doing a talk on Micropub at open source bridge! http://opensourcebridge.org/proposals/1593
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elf-pavlik can I use in Microformats any property on any type of post as in RDF? or similar to Object Oriented programing type limits available set of properties for it?
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tantek and in coe you would use <div class="hnews hentry"> for example
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kylewm GWG: that's a lot of fields for a "quick" post, can you limit it to just one or two?
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tantek s/coe/code
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and in code you would use <div class="hnews hentry"> for example
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elf-pavlik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-world_assumption
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tantek though today with microformats2 you would use <div class="h-news h-entry">
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tantek elf-pavlik: the set of property names is global
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kylewm aaronpk++ that's awesome, congrats!
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Loqi aaronpk has 782 karma
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tantek and they always have the same meaning, deliberately, for author convenience
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kylewm GWG: heh, just saw the second version for just notes -- that looks much better. why would you need a "quick post" interface for writing articles?
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tantek but each object / vocabulary lists which properties are "defined" for it
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GWG kylewm: If I send in the URL, it will autopopulate.
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tantek which is the agreement between publishers and consuming code about what properties they should use and should support consuming of. anything beyond that is not guaranteed either way
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elf-pavlik do you have some formal (machine readable) way of expressing rules of which property implies which type(s)?
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GWG kylewm: I don't.
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elf-pavlik similar to rdfs:range and rdfs:domain
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tantek elf-pavlik: we used to use XMDP for that
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: why are those useful?
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tantek but in practice there was no demand
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tantek so we gave it up
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tantek we can still make XMDP profiles for each microformat but no one bothered with writing a machine consumer to do anything practical with it
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KartikPrabhu and makes things so complicated.... cough RDF cough
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu for example if someone defines new types and new properties, people don't need to go read wiki and hard code it somehow in their systms
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tantek elf-pavlik so in general we determined that formal (machine readable) way of expressing rules of which property implies which type(s) is a waste of time that no one actually cares about in practice.
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tantek elf-pavlik: that's a false assumption.
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tantek you're confusing parsing vs. semantics
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: yes ^
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KartikPrabhu mf2 parsing is semantic-agnostic
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GWG kylewm: It is Quick compared to the full WordPress interface. I don't want to have to fill in all the info myself, I want it to come in automatically. But I always create a manual interface before an automatic one.
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tantek you may be able to avoid hard coding parsing rules per property / object (which we have solved with microformats2)
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KartikPrabhu it will spit out whatever properties you put in
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tantek elf-pavlik: however, if you want to *do* anything *practical* or *meaningful* with a property, you MUST write custom code for it in your systems.
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KartikPrabhu you can write h-blah > p-foo-bar and it will work
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tantek anyway - yeah, all the machine schema stuff is in practice a waste of time
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tantek no actual real world practical use-cases need it
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elf-pavlik tantek, i don't say about designing ui specific for the type, but even just filtering things by type so i can pick UI which i want to use to work with them
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elf-pavlik they filtering part could do it based on some formal rules and need no modification when people add new types and properties
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tantek hah that's a hilarious misconception elf-pavlik - no one has ever succeeded with that
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KartikPrabhu is more confused now
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tantek the "need no modification when people add new types and properties"
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tantek unless you say "only blog posts" for example
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tantek e.g. "only articles"
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kylewm GWG: in that case, looks good! maybe a little css "link{display:block;} input[type=text],textarea{width:100%;}"
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tantek which I have implemented in the "Recent Articles" box on my site
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tantek when I add new post types, that code does not need to change, and keeps filtering only articles
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elf-pavlik tantek, i hope i made it clear that i only meant filtering component of the system which has nothing to do with UI
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tantek everything has to do with UI, or else it is unnecessary
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GWG kylewm: I just added a CSS file to style it a bit. I don't want it to be heavy to load. The original version was just simple HTML.
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elf-pavlik than different UIs can deal with different types of social data after something filtered it for them
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kylewm GWG: hopefully you don't think the css i shared was heavy
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: do you have an example of what you'd like to do? Example as in a real example
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elf-pavlik just as people use ridesharing app e.g. BlaBlaCar and flatsharing app e.g. AirBnB for different purposes, may as well use different decentralized apps to provide UI for different data
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GWG kylewm: No. I'm saying I focused on the functionality first, and now I'm getting to refinements.
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tantek anyway now that KartikPrabhu and kylewm are here - quote posts? any interest? either in publishing or receiving webmentions of?
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elf-pavlik and i don't want people Notes and Articles end up in my couchsurfing interface!
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tantek elf-pavlik: perhaps start building something simple, even if limited, and see what you run into
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elf-pavlik good point!
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tantek it's too easy to argue yourself into not building anything by saying "don't want x to do y" - there are infinite such x and y
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elf-pavlik thanks for all the feedback and links KartikPrabhu & tantek
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I might have a bunch that might count as quote posts but I think of them more as "likes"... but would receive webmentions from quotes certainly
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tantek KartikPrabhu: ok cool! on both counts.
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GWG kylewm: The posting form involves pretty much no queries to the WordPress database till it generates the post, which is how I want it for speed.
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tantek I spent a lot of time going through aaornpk's *supposed* quote posts and refining what they actually were (since they were notes without an explicit post type)
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KartikPrabhu yeah I could add a "quoted by" section in the responses section of posts
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elf-pavlik ATM spams friends living in Paris asking for couch and wishes that could search for "my friends and their friends who live in Paris and have couch to offer"
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /User:Wwelves.org_perpetual-tripper (+220) "/* Itches */ querying for friends in given city who can offer a couch" (view diff)
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tantek congrats aaronpk on getting your /Micropub accepted to OSBridge!!!
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aaronpk thanks! I'm excited!
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tantek aaronpk: your prize for winning a talk at OSBridge is you get to add it (OSBridge) along with your talk to /Events :)
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aaronpk hehe
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yeah - that's kind of what I was thinking
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tantek so you would do something differently if you knew a webmention came from a quote of your content?
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KartikPrabhu yeah. any thing that distinguishes from a simple mention is good I think
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tantek KartikPrabhu: including a quote that was "u-quote-from" a fragmention right?
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tantek oh hey that brings up a concrete question - do you do anything special with "likes" of fragmentions?
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tantek like do you display a facepile of likes of a paragraph next to the paragraph?
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tantek (because that would be kind of epic)
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KartikPrabhu ATM, i am only using actual replies in marginalia.... because I haven't figured out a nice scalable way to displaying likes
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KartikPrabhu specially if there are more than say 10 of them
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tantek Twitter already solved this problem
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KartikPrabhu it would be great if that could be done nicely
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tantek even in the simple one tweet case
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tantek as did FB
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KartikPrabhu show latest and then hide others and display on click or something?
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KartikPrabhu yes... fragmentioned likes and other things would be a nice problem to tackle once I get back to Chicago tomorrow
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KartikPrabhu also should fix some broken-ness in marginalia.js
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tantek Twitter has the sloppier solution
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tantek it shows # of retweets (linked), # of favorites (linked), most recent 9 facepile of the union of both underneath a tweet e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/591312165077983236
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@t Every morning: 1. What’s the most I can do with what I have? 2. Remember everyone is struggling with something. (ttk.me t4ao1) (twitter.com/_/status/591312165077983236)
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tantek and then if you click on "# of retweets (linked)" or favorites it shows a pop-up div list of them
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KartikPrabhu yes but you can then click on the # of favs and a modal shows all
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tantek you can use your existing show/hide code to do that
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek the same code you use to show/hide a specific marginalia comment
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JustinO @tantek : Photos from SF friday — https://www.dropbox.com/sh/67d8pis5gblx9o4/AABKdMlnLq8elsDcMVC0qecJa?dl=1
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JustinO wed
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tantek JustinO - pre-filtered I hope!
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tantek and thanks!
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JustinO yep
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JustinO if you want all, I can send those too
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tantek do you mind renaming to something like 2015-04-22-HWC-SF-photos ?
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JustinO 900MB unfiltered. 20MB filtered
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tantek :)
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JustinO sure
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tantek hopefully that doesn't break the URL
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tantek renaming the file that is
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KartikPrabhu dropbox is clever that way
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tantek these are hilarious
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JustinO i'm using dropbox website directly since i'm on my work machine (doesn't have dbx on it)
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JustinO haha, it breaks the link
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JustinO new link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y86qdt5mqvgkyif/AAABc0BOoqTliuF6-v-ZNrs-a?dl=0
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JustinO or directly download: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y86qdt5mqvgkyif/AAABc0BOoqTliuF6-v-ZNrs-a?dl=1
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the idea is that you check to see if the webmention is on a link with class "u-quote-from" and that's how you can tell it is a quote of your content
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tantek the question is - would you display it differently?
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tantek or another existing possibility
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tantek what if someone does a u-repost-of one of your paragraphs with a fragmention? would you display that as a part of a reposts facepile?
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KartikPrabhu haven't thought of a good display yet for quotes. Facepiles is not good. will have to think
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes
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KartikPrabhu but if I put likes near the paragraph I could also put reposts
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tantek have you received any likes or reposts of any fragmentions?
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tantek can you check your webmentions for that?
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tantek otherwise someone could post one right now
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KartikPrabhu not that I recall... I would have remembered such an odd response :P
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tantek and then you would have a concrete example to work with for display brainstorming, design, implementation
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KartikPrabhu feel free to send webmentions with fragmention-ed likes, reposts, and quotes
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tantek pokes kylewm to go like (or better yet, repost) one of KartikPrabhu's paragraphs with a fragmention ;)
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KartikPrabhu I can try to tackle them next week
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KartikPrabhu after I fix marginalia
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tantek ok while you're tackling that, I'll keep iterating on what a quote post should look / markup like
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KartikPrabhu :thumbsup:
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tantek so far I think all I need is a u-quote-from on the link, and a <blockquote> around the actual quote content
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bret I wanna bounce this question off anyone who might be interested. By writing the AS2 spec as jsonld, and using jsonld keys beyond the @context, are we not essentially turning AS into an rdf based api?
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elf-pavlik bret, if you like you can alias "id": "@id" and "type": "@type" in a @context but some people discourage if one wants to use it with existing data which defines id and type in some other way
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bret i thought @context could house all those differences?
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KevinMarks_ hm, I do a lto of pull quore tweets with savepublishing.com
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KevinMarks_ s/quore/quote/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: hm, I do a lto of pull quote tweets with savepublishing.com
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elf-pavlik bret, we want to make it possible for people to use it as 'just JSON' and not have to dive into RDF behind it, unless someone wants to do more complex things
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bret im just coming to terms with https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Apr/0160.html
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KevinMarks_ eg https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/590087544211013633
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@kevinmarks “You don’t have to be an outspoken feminist on the Internet to be harassed or bullied, although I’ve heard it helps.” http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/07/13/i-was-a-teenage-sexist/ (twitter.com/_/status/590087544211013633)
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elf-pavlik still I would encourage people working with The Web to at least read http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-primer/ even just to develop negative opinion about it based on some understanding of it
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elf-pavlik bret ^
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KevinMarks_ so to mark that up as a quote I'd do what?
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KartikPrabhu what is a quote?
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Loqi A quotation is a type of post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indiewebcamp.com/quote
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: https://indiewebcamp.com/quote#How_to_markup
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KevinMarks_ ah, I was looking at /quoting
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ tantek also is thinking of "u-quote-from"
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tantek (started mocking it up and quote-from read better than quote-of)
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tantek (amazing what you figure out what you actually start *building*)
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elf-pavlik starts Sleep (Activity) :) gnight o/
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bret elf-pavlik: i've read that page before. it describes a huge amount of intricate structure and complexity without any kind of demonstration of why its worth adding to something or why you would use it over a relational DB for storing and querying for data.
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KevinMarks_ <blockquote>“You don’t have to be an outspoken feminist on the Internet to be harassed or bullied, although I’ve heard it helps.”</blockquote> <cite class="h-cite"><a class="u-quote-from" href="http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/07/13/i-was-a-teenage-sexist/#an%20outspoken%20feminist">Jenn Frank</a></cite>
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bret we can talk after you sleep though ;) dont let me keep you up
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elf-pavlik bret happy to chat about it tomorrow!
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bret im trying to understand though!
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elf-pavlik BTW check out https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf
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KevinMarks_ note that that has the "fragmention hidden under the header" bug
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elf-pavlik and I encourage you to play with http://client.linkeddatafragments.org/
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KevinMarks_ I need to write that up as as rant
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kevinmarks.com edited /quoting (+12) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ is there a place where you have documented the latest fragmention convention?
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+440) "update to suggested style of linking without ##" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ will that do?
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KevinMarks_ should probbaly read the annotation WG recent stuff
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KevinMarks_ I shoudl edit https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention#URL_encoding too
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KevinMarks_ is %20 preferable to + ?
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KevinMarks_ there is trickness wiht browser address abr behaviour
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KevinMarks_ FF will happily let you type spces and escape the to %20
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KevinMarks_ chrom/safari will interpret them as site scoped search and call google etc
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KartikPrabhu yeah typing spaces is tricky with browsers
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Loqi [mention] https://www.dirkmurschall.de/blog/dein-feedback-auf-meine-inhalte-gehoert-zu-mir/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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bret KevinMarks_: Is %20 vs + still an open question?
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KevinMarks_ I'm leaning to %20 now, but willing to hear debate about it
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zachdonovan have a great weekend, campers!
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GWG zachdonovan: I'm sure we'll see what we can do
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tantek tries to catch up here too.
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-05-06-homebrew-website-club (+18) "/* RSVP */ regrets" (view diff)
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tantek bret - you're welcome to try to read all the RDF/LD stuff - I find it too plumbing-centric rather than user-centric and quickly tl;dr get impatient with it.
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tantek re: %20 vs. + - pretty sure you can only use + for space in query string parameters
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KevinMarks Yes, so the + is not a good idea if we want to ensure no collisions with id
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KevinMarks What is this? https://webtask.io/
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Loqi This. (AKA THIS. or This: or THIS:) is type of quotation post similar in meaning to a combined like & repost where the text "This." is stated on a line by itself after the quotation, or the text "This:" is stated before a quotation or URL to express a strong affirmation or agreement with the referenced quotation or article https://indiewebcamp.com/this
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aaronpk weird
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kylewm heh, it's like a bookmarklet for webhooks
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GWG I find sentences that say, It is like x for y to be confusing.
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aaronpk indeed
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kylewm it's like if you hired someone to click a bookmarklet every time a webhook fires?
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ben_thatmustbeme Huh. Both my future daughters names are available as .com
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ben_thatmustbeme May have top bit those up
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tantek do it!
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aaronpk not the worst plan
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aaronpk i got a domain for my cat after all
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KevinMarks_ good idea - my sons ended up with .media and .me
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