#indiewebcamp 2015-05-12

2015-05-12 UTC
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KevinMarks__ so possibly failing partway through?
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kylewm looking at the log
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Loqi [mention] https://epeus.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/does-editing-ui-change-writing/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub (pingback)
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KevinMarks__ so wordpress works, but doesn't take images
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Loqi [mention] http://epeus.blogspot.com/2015/05/does-editing-ui-affect-writing-style.html linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub (webmention)
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GWG sighs
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KevinMarks__ yes, imaegs go thorugh on blogger
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KevinMarks__ http://epeus.blogspot.com/2015/05/how-quills-editor-looks.html
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kylewm unfortunately I'm not logging enough to see why Tumblr isn't quite working for you
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kylewm it worked for me and returned a location and everything
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kylewm KevinMarks__: actually nevermind, the problem is that your micropub_endpoint on http://kevinmarks.tumblr.com/ is http:// instead of https://
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kylewm which works but returns a redirect instead of a 201 that quill expects
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KevinMarks__ hm, it worked before
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KevinMarks__ OK, I'll change it'
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kylewm I added some code to force heroku to always serve from https
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kylewm probably a horrid hack
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bengo @kylewm What was it? I can confirm if it's horrid :P
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bengo did that recently too for indieweb-example.herokuapp.com
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kylewm lol, bengo
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kylewm turns out it was "from flask_sslify import SSLify"
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kylewm so I have no idea
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bengo lol, require('express-sslify') https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/blob/master/index.js#L15
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bengo I think it's just
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bengo if the incoming protocol isn't https, redirect to HTTPS
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bengo optionally also checking the X-Forwarded-Proto header
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bengo which is what heroku passes along if it terminates the SSL and sends you non-ssl
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KevinMarks__ but can you redirect a POST?
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bengo You CAN
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bengo browsers won't follow it
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KevinMarks__ that fixed it kyle: http://kevinmarks.tumblr.com/post/118736710410/does-editing-ui-affect-writing-style
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bengo well... it will, but it will follow it with a GET
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bengo not a POST to the Location header of your response
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KevinMarks__ so when getting the micropub url, follow redirects and cache the redirected one?
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KevinMarks__ ah, you're sending a 302, kylewm saying not to cache the redirect
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KevinMarks__ curl --head http://feverdream.herokuapp.com/micropub HTTP/1.1 302 FOUND
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KevinMarks__ if you sent a 301, the caller SHOULD cache the redirect instread
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bengo The server should probably be using a 301 or 307 instead
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bengo see opening paras of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_302
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bengo "Many web browsers implemented this code in a manner that violated this standard, changing the request type of the new request to GET, regardless of the type employed in the original request (e.g. POST).[1] For this reason, HTTP/1.1 (RFC 2616) added the new status codes 303 and 307 to disambiguate between the two behaviours, with 303 mandating the change of request type to GET, and 307 preserving the request type as
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bengo originally sent. "
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KevinMarks__ my point is that if my tumblr points to the http version, quill will fetch that, get a 302 and then not cache the https one
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KevinMarks__ whereas a 301 would mean 'caceh the https one'
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kylewm well it looks like SSLify does support an option "permanent" to use 301 instead of 302
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kylewm but i kinda doubt Quill would do anything special with redirects of either kind?
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bengo 308 is probably the most explicit thing... It's means permanent and explicitly-repeat-POST
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kylewm Tumblr and Blogspot both supported data:images ??!
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KevinMarks__ looks like it
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KevinMarks___ I suppose if I give an image too big for local storage could mung it client side in canvas
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@PinPopular IndieWebify.Me - a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb http://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/597923166904655872)
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Vendan hrm, for the indie messaging stuff, wouldn't it make sense to check to see if the target has a u-key for public/private key encryption, and encrypt the message with that key?
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kylewm Vendan: that's one possibility sure
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kylewm but do you really want your private key on your webserver?
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Vendan hrm, true
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acegiak KevinMarks__: so are you posseing to tumblr?
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KevinMarks_ Through fever dream, but manually at the moment
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KevinMarks_ But I could set something up to fan out to tumblr, WordPress and blogger
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acegiak ah ok, neat. I'm interested in how people do their tumblr posseing
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Vendan heh, I may posse notes to twitter, but I'm not really on any other social network
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acegiak tumblr is my main social network
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KevinMarks___ Did you try feverdream, acegiak?
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acegiak Kevinmarks, not really because I'm pretty happy with my POSSE setup as it is
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acegiak but I'm keeping an eye out for any solutions that can do what I'm already doing with my hacky code but properly
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Vendan well, I've managed to start posting notes that are marked up with h-entry, the main page has a h-feed, and I've got a h-card set up with a smattering of info
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KevinMarks__ what kyle built with feverdream points towards a "micropub as POSSE" path
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KevinMarks__ great vendan
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KevinMarks__ so do webmentions from you look good now?
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KevinMarks__ my tumblr is more of a tumbleweed
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Vendan not quite at the point of webmentions
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Vendan that's next step
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KevinMarks__ right, but you can send them with indiewebify.me to check your markup works
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Vendan markup isn't working for them, actually, there is no markup for them really
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Vendan can't currently put a arbitrary html in, and there's no parsing to turn urls into links yet
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Vendan golang's template system is rather hardcore about disallowing XSS and similar
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KevinMarks__ ah
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Vendan it's kinda crazy, it parses the html in the template to the point where it knows if it's in an html attribute or a text node or what, and automatically escapes the inserted content
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KevinMarks__ you could port https://github.com/kylewm/cassis-autolink-py (or the js/php original)
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Vendan probably do something like that
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Vendan really just need to get a general "this looks something like a url" and run it through http://golang.org/pkg/net/url/#Parse
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KevinMarks__ there is the regex from hell in that file that does that
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KevinMarks__ '(?:\\@[_a-zA-Z0-9]{1,17})|(?:(?:(?:(?:http|https|irc)?:\\/\\/(?:(?:[!$&-.0-9;=?A-Z_a-z]|(?:\\%[a-fA-F0-9]{2}))+(?:\\:(?:[!$&-.0-9;=?A-Z_a-z]|(?:\\%[a-fA-F0-9]{2}))+)?\\@)?)?(?:(?:(?:[a-zA-Z0-9][-a-zA-Z0-9]*\\.)+(?:(?:aero|arpa|asia|a[cdefgilmnoqrstuwxz])|(?:biz|b[abdefghijmnorstvwyz])|(?:cat|com|coop|c[acdfghiklmnoruvxyz])|d[ejkmoz]|(?:edu|e[cegrstu])|f[ijkmor]|(?:gov|g[abdefghilmnpqrstuwy])|h[kmnrtu]|(?:info|int|i[delmno
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KevinMarks__ i'm not sure quite how tantek came up with that, but we use it and stand well back
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Vendan yeah, I looked at the source of it, what you pasted got cut short
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Vendan quite short
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Vendan not sure about the concept of doing that hardcore of validation in regex
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Vendan I'd feel better getting a rough handle on where the url is, letting golang's stdlib parse it for me, then do some further validation if I want to throw out stuff like .mobi or .jobs
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acegiak KevinMarks_: I hadn't thought of using micropub for posse!
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kylewm cassis does actually do some validation and post-processing outside of the regex
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kylewm for example it removes trailing )'s unless there is a ( in the path part of the url
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raucao figured out why bridgy stopped working with my known
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raucao apparently it relies on links within the tweet to send webmentions to
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raucao i thought the twitter plugin would somehow announce what it publishes so that bridgy can keep the url with the tweet id or sth
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elf-pavlik waves o/
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raucao would hate to re-add post links to every tweet, as it means less characters
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raucao elf-pavlik: hey man!
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raucao missed you at the camp
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elf-pavlik yeah, i missed the camp as well :(
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raucao i meant we missed you at the camp, not that i missed it :)
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elf-pavlik i understood
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raucao oh i see
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elf-pavlik i missed both, camp and you :(
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raucao hehe
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raucao you're in berlin?
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elf-pavlik how did it go?
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raucao was really nice
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elf-pavlik in Braunschweig, will come to Berlin soon
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KartikPrabhu yo
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rhiaro Hey elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik hey rhiaro :D
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rhiaro How's it going?
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elf-pavlik great!
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elf-pavlik and you?
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rhiaro Also great!
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rhiaro Last day in Dusseldorf
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elf-pavlik i realized that my diagram on github doesn't accomodate well activities like hug, kiss and cuddle ;) https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/issues/12
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rhiaro Lol
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elf-pavlik also teach and learn, since one also learns by teaching
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elf-pavlik needs to redraw it...
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: i don't think the digital world accomodates all physical world activities yet
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, we can still log our outernet activities online e.g. http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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rhiaro KartikPrabhu: people still post about them, but what level of modeling for online is hard
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KartikPrabhu yes. elf-pavlik rhiaro :)
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: maybe this conversation should be in #social :)
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elf-pavlik jumping
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KartikPrabhu I have found it easier to replicate existing digital world social behavior on my site, rather than worry about the most general possible digital expression
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, http://indiewebcamp.com/elf-pavlik
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elf-pavlik "add detailed logs of my usage of public transport, I take public transport without buying tickets and would like that everyone can fully analyse my consumption habits in this field"
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: sure but does anyone consume it yet?
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KartikPrabhu or has anyone expressed interest in consuming it
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elf-pavlik does it matter? if i don't start publishing it we will have chickent and egg issue
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elf-pavlik public transport agencies i hope
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elf-pavlik KartikPrabhu, i don't focus on 'blogger' centric requirements
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elf-pavlik i focus on *social* and also *economic*
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KartikPrabhu hmmm personally I'm not interested in "agencies" or "organisations" consuming what I publish. More about my friends and so on
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KartikPrabhu I don't either :)
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elf-pavlik well, i hope i will make friends also with people who run public transportation
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KartikPrabhu I focus on "what I want to publish" so that my friends "might wan to see"
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elf-pavlik similar here, many people ask "how do you manage to leave without using money", by publishing detalied logs of my consumptions / contributions everyone can take a look and answer this question to oneself :)
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elf-pavlik DRY
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elf-pavlik my old note on individuals and organizations https://n-1.cc/photos/image/96936/p2p-individuals-and-companies-of-individuals
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elf-pavlik please note #ownyourdata element to it :)
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KartikPrabhu in that respect, it would be good for "everyone" if there existed tools to interpret this data. Pure data is mostly useless unless you know how to extract meaning from it
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elf-pavlik i agree, but you often need raw data to build tools for interpreting it
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elf-pavlik s/you often need/one often needs/
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Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: i agree, but one often needs raw data to build tools for interpreting it
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KartikPrabhu true. but unless those tools are available the data is mostly useless
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elf-pavlik again, we need to deal with chicken and egg issue all the time
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KartikPrabhu speaks from experience listening to experimental science talks about data :P
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KartikPrabhu elf-pavlik: lest I come off as dismissive, I do realise that having data is the first step to using it :)
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elf-pavlik :)
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KartikPrabhu rhiaro: btw good post testing aaronpk's fancy new article posting tool
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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elf-pavlik ahoy aaronpk o/
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elf-pavlik i feel curious about your feedback on idea of marking all content included via webmention with h-cite https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/40
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elf-pavlik rhiaro, ^
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rhiaro I agree with what aaronpk just replied :)
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aaronpk :)
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elf-pavlik i don't understand why h-cite would have to do with display?
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petermolnar Flickr seem to have killed themselves: https://www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/72157652568890216/
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elf-pavlik for me h-cite suggests: "In this context consider this data as embedded/trascluded from elsewhere"
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rhiaro elf-pavlik: the wm spec doesn't have anything to do with what people do with replies when they get them, including how to mark up
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#preventing-abuse
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elf-pavlik "ceivers SHOULD moderate Webmentions, and if a link is displayed back to the source, SHOULD link to source with rel="nofollow" to prevent spam."
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elf-pavlik https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#introduction
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elf-pavlik "4. Alice's publishing software verifies that Bob's post actually contains a link to her post and then includes this information on her site."
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rhiaro Hmm
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elf-pavlik of course i don't say that it should put normative requirement on using h-cite or microformats at all :)
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rhiaro defers to aaronpk and goes for a run
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elf-pavlik enjoy!
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aaronpk elf-pavlik: that's there because it was in pingback
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, i guess by 'display' you meant including in page without refering to how it appears to person looking at it?
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aaronpk i mean anything that isn't just verifying the webmention and storing it
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elf-pavlik i agree that it fits the same bucket as rel="nofollow", i also suggested possibility of adding it in the same section
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aaronpk yeah i think that's fine
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aaronpk which is what i thought i said on the github thread
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elf-pavlik yes, i misunderstood the 'display' part
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elf-pavlik replied on gh, thx!
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petermolnar.eu edited /Flickr (+206) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /Flickr (+128) "/* Downtime */" (view diff)
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@derhess Another interesting #indieweb #indiedev meeting in Düsseldorf in ca. 10 days http://decentralizecamp.com/schedule #decentralize (twitter.com/_/status/598077927734009856)
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@TheIndieSloth RT @derhess: Another interesting #indieweb #indiedev meeting in Düsseldorf in ca. 10 days http://decentralizecamp.com/schedule #decentralize (twitter.com/_/status/598077971736440832)
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@FlappyTeam RT derhess: Another interesting #indieweb #indiedev meeting in Düsseldorf in ca. 10 days http://decentralizecamp.com/schedule #decentralize (via TheInd… (twitter.com/_/status/598080184328310785)
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elf-pavlik people keep tweeting about this *last year* event (2014) https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/598079526040641536
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@elfpavlik @derhess please note 2014 (last year) on @decentcamp page http://decentralizecamp.com/schedule (twitter.com/_/status/598079526040641536)
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@dkreuz RT @derhess: Another interesting #indieweb #indiedev meeting in Düsseldorf in ca. 10 days http://decentralizecamp.com/schedule #decentralize (twitter.com/_/status/598082621508329472)
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@derhess Sorry I was wrong! there is no #indieweb meeting in Düsseldorf... I missed the year.. It was for 2014 and not for this year 2015. sorry! (twitter.com/_/status/598082641900998656)
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GWG Okay, photo posting support in my webactions plugin, check. I'm now ready to go picture taking.
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zachdonovan GWG: good morning!
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Loqi zachdonovan: GWG left you a message 2 days, 10 hours ago: tantek gave me, inadvertently, a good venue idea http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-09/line/1431224657833
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zachdonovan got it :)
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zachdonovan GWG: Schnipper's at 7:30 is great for me!
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kylewm !tell raucao you don't have to include links in you twitter copies for bridgy to work. See /posse-post-discovery. Let me know if you want help debugging bridgy
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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raucao kylewm: yer, i found the faq entry about links
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Loqi raucao: kylewm left you a message 28 seconds ago: you don't have to include links in you twitter copies for bridgy to work. See /posse-post-discovery. Let me know if you want help debugging bridgy http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431437712241
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raucao i can help with debugging yes
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raucao wanted to first try and add the feed link to the site that was previously linked in my twitter profile. do you know if it checks every time? if i had written it, i'd probably cache things
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GWG zachdonovan: Great. Updating
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GWG zachdonovan: We have at least 50% more attendance than last time
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zachdonovan yes, I saw!
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kylewm raucao:yes it caches the url in your profile, if you change the url and reauth Twitter, it will pick up the new one
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@RikMende This note sum's up pretty much all the reason why I'm also interested in the #indieweb philosophy & community http://www.rmendes.net/2015/this-note-sums-up-pretty-much-all-the-reason-why (twitter.com/_/status/598121007560273920)
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zachdonovan GWG: I invited a few people as well
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GWG zachdonovan: Tantek is very charismatic. I imagine that others will follow.
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GWG zachdonovan: I am arranging to beat the traffic this time
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zachdonovan excellent!
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zachdonovan yes
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zachdonovan I wish you smoother travels this time
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GWG zachdonovan: It was smooth going home that night
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@kylewmahan IndieWebCamp https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/598127143306932224)
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan posted 'IndieWebCamp Testing posse bookmarks to facebook and twitter' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://kylewm.withknown.com/2015/indiewebcamp)
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raucao kylewm: cool, thx
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@LukasRosenstock I wrote a short blog post about my experience of attending #IndieWebCampGermany2015, check it out: http://lukasrosenstock.net/post/59421601?utm_content=bufferddc1e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/598129269701779456)
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kylewm I added a "N New Posts" button that appears when new entries are available but hidden, at the top of reader.kylewm.com ... was fed up with it scrolling away from me while i'm reading a long article
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: what do you think about being able to discover multiple feeds when adding a person?
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ben_thatmustbeme search the page for h-feed but also for links with rel='feed' title='photos only feed' etc
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: makes sense to me, does anyone publish feeds like that?
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ben_thatmustbeme i will be shortly
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aaronpk i will be soon as well
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rhiaro +1
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ben_thatmustbeme actually... I am now!
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ben_thatmustbeme :D
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ben_thatmustbeme i just don't have a firehose feed yet outside of the home page
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Vendan microformats parser can read the rel links easily anyways, just sift through the feed key of the rels portion. Only issue is you lose all the extra context of the link
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Vendan like the title...
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: is there a good way to know whether rel="feed" will be text/html and not RSS?
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aaronpk there's a content type attribute on rel links
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, good point, i am supposed to be including that
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kylewm Vendan: check out the new rel-urls feature on mf2py :)
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Vendan http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats kylewm?
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kylewm yep, exactly
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Vendan k, I'll see about adding that to my parser as well
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Vendan gonna throw off all the rel parsing test :(
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ben_thatmustbeme fixed, all my links include type="text/html"
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Vendan heh, so you can sift through rss and atom feeds and pick out the microformat ones?
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kylewm it's a little bit weird that i'll have to iterate through the rel-urls key to find that link
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Vendan kylewm, why iterate, the url is the key to the rel-urls array
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Vendan *hash*
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kylewm Vendan: right, if my use case is "find all the URLs that are rel=feed and type=text/html", then i need to iterate over the whole hash
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ben_thatmustbeme wonder how we can keep the context where title=""
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ben_thatmustbeme i feel like that would be pretty important for the UI of the reader to have a description with it
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Vendan right, though you could grab the rels["feed"] and cross reference at that point
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Vendan ben_thatmustbeme, that's what rel-urls is for
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Vendan kylewm, wonder if there should be a h-remotefeed or something, so people that are exposing multiple feed types could have them grouped together
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ben_thatmustbeme huh?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: my site also has many feeds linked from the homepage
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: cool, I'll try adding support for the rn
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Vendan something like http://pastebin.com/mjhY85M8
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KartikPrabhu Vendan: see: https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#partial_feeds
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ben_thatmustbeme note that some of mine are actually in <link> tags in the header
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ben_thatmustbeme though i think i shoudl probably now filter my list of categories that show up to only those that have more than 2 posts or something
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Vendan interesting
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning tantek
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tantek I think we should not depend on nor recommend anything to use "nofollow" - it's been horribly abused and now I think it's bad for web publishing in general.
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tantek primary abuse of nofollow has been social silos using it on *2nd party* content (posts), not just 3rd party content (comments). And nevermind the wikipedia abuse.
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aaronpk i'm all for dropping it from the webmention recommendation in favor of talking about h-cite
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ben_thatmustbeme and what does that do to vouch?
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tantek yes let's drop all mention of nofollow from webmention
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tantek checking
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tantek ah - it was only in ()? expressions, so we can drop it
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tantek if an actual problem comes up with nofollow links, let's find another way to solve it
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tantek nofollow is basically noise at this point
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tantek every link on every post on every silo you post has nofollow on it, even though its on an account that you authenticated etc.
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tantek so there's tons of nofollow links that are perfectly fine, as compared to comment spam (original motivation for nofollow)
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Vendan main reason I've seen for nofollow has been for stuff like wikis, where anyone could make lists pointing at sites to bump up their link rating
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tantek the solution to that is to revert those edits
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tantek not to allow only semi-bad noise
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Vendan kinda pointless nowadays, as most search engines lower your rating for doing that now
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: KartikPrabhu: OK added h-feed discover, please try it out!
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tantek right, nofollow has become quite pointless
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kylewm discovery*
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Vendan and seems potentially harmful for social web building
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kylewm KevinMarks++ that would've been much more difficult without the new rel-urls stuff!
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Loqi KevinMarks has 110 karma
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (-33) "rm 2 instances of nofollow usage, make the 3rd (in old notes) optional since it's purpose is not clear" (view diff)
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Vendan if someone's used webmention to insert bad links, get rid of the bad links, don't just say "oh, ignore the links"
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tantek right
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tantek all nofollow did was allow pollution of content to humans while providing hints at the pollution to search engines
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tantek we should have come up with a solution to the pollution instead of annotating it :P
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Loqi I agree
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tantek so now we are, with vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: weee, thats a lot of feeds now!
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ben_thatmustbeme and you got the titles... excellent!
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tantek GWG, how late is Schnipper's open?
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tantek and what do you think of an 18:30-19:30 quiet writing hour before the meetup?
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GWG 11pm
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GWG Not a problem
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tantek great
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: your primary h-feed's title is truncated at 140 charazcters, otherwise it is... quite long http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2F
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, i saw that, i need to give it some sort of proper title
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tantek has that problem too
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tantek !tell aaronpk do we already have a request for Loqi to drop utm_* query params from URLs before posting them to IRC? e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431440107827
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ for feed discovery
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Loqi kylewm has 166 karma
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kylewm \o/
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme++ for suggesting it
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 70 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm++ nicely done
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Loqi kylewm has 167 karma
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gRegorLove With the removal of nofollow from /Vouch, how do we link to [bad person] without acting as a vouch for them?
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tantek where's KevinMarks to suggest bringing back VoteLinks?
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ben_thatmustbeme for that matter, how do we stop one person getting spammed from preventing spam to everyone they are associated with (and recurse)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: if you have friends/sites you vouch for but don't want to use as a source of vouches yourself, you blacklist them for that purpose
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tantek it's like real life, you say, I trust this person, but I don't trust their choice of friends :P
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tantek (seems to happen a lot)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, has nothing to do with trust, one hole exposes the entire network for spam immediately (assuming immediate posting of comments)
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tantek but that was true before too - nothing to do with nofollow
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ben_thatmustbeme recommendation had been to put nofollow on links that were comments
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ben_thatmustbeme comment links thus could not be used for vouch
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tantek so instead let's mark them up as …. ***comments***
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tantek rather than some vague pseudo-semantic search-engine robots.txt inspired nonsense
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ben_thatmustbeme comments usually have u-url back to the source though
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, i see, you are saying adding some other value no rel=nofollow but that would work for the same purposes?
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tantek not same purposes, one purpose
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ben_thatmustbeme same purposes in this case, yes
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tantek to identify is this a comment, then do what you want accordingly
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tantek rather than making a judgment for all comments
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, interesting
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tantek that was the problem with nofollow - so poorly named that it started to get used for EVERYTHING
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ben_thatmustbeme my original idea was to basically do no follow for anyone i am not following / friend of
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tantek so now, it's noise
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ben_thatmustbeme fair point
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tantek aside, sad about Flickr upload failures
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ben_thatmustbeme missed that, what about flickr?
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gRegorLove Hmm, so you mean a new rel-value to indicate they're comments, or a class attribute?
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gRegorLove https://www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/72157652568890216/
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gRegorLove Or parsing mf2, excluding links in h-cites?
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ben_thatmustbeme that was going to be my question..
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tantek right. there are multiple possible approaches to consider
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tantek !tell aaronpk were there any group photos taken at IWC Germany?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk Yep
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: another idea (and i'll probably run this by you again once i am properly publishing it) is having some system to pull off of my "following" (yet to be published)
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 13 minutes ago: do we already have a request for Loqi to drop utm_* query params from URLs before posting them to IRC? e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431440107827 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431448381800
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 17 seconds ago: were there any group photos taken at IWC Germany? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431449150057
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gRegorLove This is relevant to my interests as I'm in process of writing WM+Vouch plugin and was using the nofollow route so far.
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aaronpk Haven't uploaded anything yet
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gRegorLove So if I should be fundamentally changing that, now would be a good time.
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aaronpk Eye fi didn't like the venue wifi for some reason
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tantek.com edited /2015/Germany (+200) "start blog posts and photos sections" (view diff)
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aaronpk So many blog posts from it!
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aaronpk The most yet I think
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tantek aaronpk - re: eye fi - note that Flickr uploading was broken this weekend.
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tantek as in on Flickr
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct-examples (+170) "add another code of conduct, based on OS Bridge, note mostly positive framing and specific community empowerment" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh yeah huh.. i seemed to be able to upload screenshots fine all weekend
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lukasrosenstock.net edited /2015/Germany (+200) "/* Blog Posts */" (view diff)
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LukasRos I copied the posts from news section to event page.
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tantek news is supposed to be about post about indieweb in general, not just a specific indiewebcamp per se
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tantek are the posts about both?
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LukasRos Both which I copied are about the event so I added them to the event. I left them in the news section as well.
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tantek thanks LukasRos !
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LukasRos Not sure whether they should be removed from news section, aaronpk added them there so I didn’t want to touch that.
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aaronpk ah i wasn't aware of that distinction either
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tantek skimming both those posts - they're both about indieweb in general as well as the camp
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tantek so that's good to keep them in both places
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tantek aaronpk: it's a soft distinction - we don't want to clutter the general posts about the indieweb with too many just event posts
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LukasRos Ok. My post is only on the event which I think is fair since it doesn’t provide any generic value.
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killerog I hadn't seen that page yet, should I add my post too?
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tantek yes!
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killerog.com edited /2015/Germany (+105) "/* Blog Posts */ Added my blog post. Not sure if they should be arranged by date posted or just in order of being added" (view diff)
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tantek date posted is good
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killerog Than I should rearrange it :-)
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killerog.com edited /2015/Germany (+0) "/* Blog Posts */ Rearranged as suggested, sorry Lukas :)" (view diff)
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killerog brb, time for food
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ben_thatmustbeme brings things to on topic that were not in this room... though he has tried to raise them in the past
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ben_thatmustbeme actually feels that micropub would be better off posting as JSON
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tantek link to reasons?
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tantek have you written this up in a Brainstorming section or a post?
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ben_thatmustbeme not yet
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ben_thatmustbeme feels posts are better after some amount of discussion first
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GWG Afternoon.
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ben_thatmustbeme afternoon GWG
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zachdonovan happy May 12th
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GWG Is May 12th a holiday?
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KevinMarks__ the big downside is not being able to use html forms for it, ben
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: but at least a simple list of reasons?
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tantek people made similar noises 10+ years ago about (API name) would be better off posting as XML
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tantek and see how far that got them
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tantek don't trust such format feels
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks__: you really can't do that now without having the auth token in the HTML. most implementations seem to post only to their own site and then use curl from some back-end
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GWG Anyone have a good example of a photo post ui?
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aaronpk anyone remember xmlrpc?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks__: also, posting directly to json is coming down the pipe eventually
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GWG aaronpk: WordPress does.
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ben_thatmustbeme it would give us the ability to be able to tag photos at locations which we cannot currently do in micropub
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tantek GWG, aaronpk please make that a Pepperidge Farm meme
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's a huge leap
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tantek and yes you can with micropub
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aaronpk "which we cannot do"?
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tantek the same way you can do checkins
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tantek at venues
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tantek :P
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aaronpk seems like it'd work the same way as people tagging
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme, you may be confusing syntax with design methodology
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ben_thatmustbeme cannot do with a single post
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ben_thatmustbeme with venues it makes sense as you create a location
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tantek you shouldn't do with a single POST - that's the point
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Loqi agreed.
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aaronpk even loqi agrees
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aaronpk tantek: http://meme.loqi.me/4b7QwaMz.jpg
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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tantek aaronpk, more like "REMEMBER XML-RPC?" "WordPress Remembers"
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aaronpk is not familiar with this meme
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aaronpk http://meme.loqi.me/4b7hJW34.jpg
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ben_thatmustbeme for tagging a location within a photo of a person, you have to create the photo post, then create the h-card (which are not really supposed to be objects)
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ben_thatmustbeme i would argue anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme THEN post for each person you want to position within each photo
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ben_thatmustbeme you could probably do those two together actually, that would make sense
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KevinMarks__ why would you have to do that?
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aaronpk to be clear, i'm not 100% opposed to supporting JSON posts for micropub. it's just that the only arguments for it so far have been unconvincing
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i know, i'm trying to make that case, and trying to figure out how to specify tags of people was the first place i was hitting a major problem
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KevinMarks__ given the way aaron sneaked images posts in with data urls, html posts have a loegs
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KevinMarks__ s/a loegs/legs/
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Loqi KevinMarks__ meant to say: given the way aaron sneaked images posts in with data urls, html posts have legs
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: you're not advocating for JSON, you're advocating for complex hierarchical POSTs
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tantek that's much worse
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KevinMarks__ why can't you post the tags of people as marked-up HTML
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tantek that's not a syntax issue
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KevinMarks__ thats the atompub rathole
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tantek one of many
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I thought we solved people tagging
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, there are no other arguements you can make, json and form encodings are just encodings, you can always serialize, its just how complex you want to be
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: by "solved" we ignored locations within photos
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: no we *solved* /person-tags as specified
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tantek they're not dependent on area tags
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tantek so saying "ignored" is misframing
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tantek also "locations within photos" is ambiguous and misleading - makes it sound like geo locations
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aaronpk oh i thought that's what you were talking about
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aaronpk crap
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Loqi hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme "x and y offset within photos"
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aaronpk position?
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ben_thatmustbeme and tantek, we can specify them in MF2... but we are talking about micropub serialization
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@wiobyrne Hey @makerbase I made http://wiobyrne.com/ http://makerba.se/ #indieweb #mozilla #teachthewb (twitter.com/_/status/598196312224436224)
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KevinMarks__ can't you post them in mf2 in the content of of the micropub?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks__: only if you post by html
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tantek aaronpk: that's what happens when you're a spec person, you see ambiguities in people's IRC :(
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aaronpk getting people to accept HTML content type posts is a stretch
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tantek indeed
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tantek especially since there's more demand for markdown
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ben_thatmustbeme is of the opinion that micropub should specify body encoding
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tantek is makerbase abusing the indieweb hashtag?
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tantek there's nothing indieweb about makerbase, it's just another silo
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tantek why do independents keep building more silos?
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tantek because they don't know how to build anything else?
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aaronpk it's easier to build a silo
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tantek otherwise known as a spam honeypot :P
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tantek how is this not obvious?
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GWG tantek: You could invite them to HWC
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tantek GWG, who is "them"? name names
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KevinMarks__ 'more demand for markdown' ? from whom?
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GWG tantek: The Maker base people.
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tantek GWG, those aren't names of people
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tantek KevinMarks: from following #indiewebcamp during the weekend and IWC Düsseldorf
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ben_thatmustbeme so the way we are doing tagging on a post thus far has been category[]='https://www.domain.com' for example. you would have to go on to do category['https://www.domain.com']['shape']='circle' and same for position. or you post each area as an object? which seems messy as hell
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: we already decided that we need to go back to the drawing board for /area-tags
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tantek I'm not sure why you're posting that as a strawman
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: the way to come up with micropub requests is to look at the microformat markup and work backwards
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aaronpk not make stuff up
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tantek yes that ^^^
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tantek aaronpk: please capture that in a "Methodology" or something section in /micropub
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KevinMarks__ given that aaronpk just made an editor that will let me post complex formatting via micropub
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GWG tantek: According to the site, it is a project of ThinkUp LLC.
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KevinMarks__ extending that to let you insert a tagged image seems doable
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks__: which one?
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KevinMarks__ quill
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ben_thatmustbeme needs to check quill again
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aaronpk https://quill.p3k.io/editor
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tantek GWG, we've invited Anil and Gina repeatedly to IWC NYC - Jeremy Zilar even made badges/pins for them - no shows - and mostly no responses
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tantek GWG, you're welcome to reach out to them individually on Twitter and invite them to HWC
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, tantek very sad. that
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KevinMarks__ the 'insert' thingy could add other rich types beyond image and video
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aaronpk I am thinking a way to specify html vs plaintext content for micropub requests would be useful... similar to how microformats assumes all values are plaintext except for e-* which gets pulled out as html and value
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GWG tantek: I'm still annoyed at last week's This Week in Google show.
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KevinMarks__ I should go on netx week and heckle
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Loqi +1
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GWG I should stop watching Internet tech punditry sometimes
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: has been request for markdown too
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ben_thatmustbeme prefixing for various languages could be useful
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ben_thatmustbeme content / md-content / e-content ?
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KevinMarks__ the image posting didn't work in wordpress: https://epeus.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/does-editing-ui-change-writing/ but ti did in blogger and tumblr http://kevinmarks.tumblr.com/post/118736710410/does-editing-ui-affect-writing-style
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GWG KevinMarks__: You are the talking head who adds s counterpoint to the pro silo view
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aaronpk wow blogged accepted that? that's amazing
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KevinMarks__ and known too
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KevinMarks__ gina was pushing back on writing in medium too
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KevinMarks__ blogger has always been pretty good at accepting arbitrary html
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KevinMarks__ wordpress is much fussier
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tantek aaronpk - interesting plain text vs. html distinction, also based on microformats p-* vs. e-*
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tantek that's a sensible concept to re-use
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: no need for md-* - as md is *supposed* to be just an enhancement of plain text
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GWG I'm frustrated with WordPress this week
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tantek any markdown that's NOT just an enhancement of plain text violates MD design principles and should be rejected
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: as to why i was going back to the area-tags issue, i don't think the mf2 markup makes sense, we only had a problem with it when we got to mp serialization
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tantek is that a podcast?
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gRegorLove Makerbase is a silo, but the indieweb hashtags I've seen here have been people submitting their projects to the Makerbase directory. That one above looks correct since the person is just submitting their own site http://wiobyrne.com/
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: huh?
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tantek "don't think" … " had a problem" ?!?
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GWG Is what a podcast?
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tantek This Week in WordPress
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gRegorLove kylewm submitted some of his indieweb projects iirc
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tantek gRegorLove: it will become spammers submitting their spam
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tantek useless
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ben_thatmustbeme s/don't think/think/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: tantek: as to why i was going back to the area-tags issue, i think the mf2 markup makes sense, we only had a problem with it when we got to mp serialization
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tantek both Anil and Gina should know better than that
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tantek do know better than that
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tantek sigh
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GWG tantek: No, but there is a WordPress Weekly
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@jkphl Thanks to all involved making my last 4 days @indiewebcamp + @btconf that much of a blast. It was a pleasure spending time with you! <3 (twitter.com/_/status/598199884513222656)
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gRegorLove Wasn't arguing Makerbase is useful; I see what you mean now, though.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+310) "/* Syntax */" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I'm not so sure about the mf2 markup for area tags
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tantek it's workable, but not great anyway
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KevinMarks__ but md is also a superset of HTML
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tantek lololol
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Vendan what?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks__: btw, i have had a MP client that can post html for a while https://ben.thatmustbe.me/new&type=article
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tantek KevinMarks: that makes no sense
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ben_thatmustbeme i post articles as html
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Vendan might as well just say text is a superset of html
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GWG I'm frustrated with not being able to get microformat change in Wordpress
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tantek Vendan++ for properly reductio ad absurdum disproving KevinMarks's assertion.
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Loqi Vendan has 5 karma
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Vendan lol
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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Vendan big words, me no read
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KevinMarks__ you're allowed to put html in markdown to do things markdown can't do
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KevinMarks__ so markdown can contain html
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Vendan you are also allowed to put html tags into text...
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tantek lol
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tantek Kevinmarks - that just means markdown is *ignoring* HTML - it doesn't mean HTML is part of markdown.
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tantek and using markdown that way violates the markdown design principles
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tantek thus in spirit is NOT markdown :P
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KevinMarks__ if I put plaintext through auto_link, am I violating it's p- ness
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Vendan also, I wouldn't count on that kinda behaviour, standard setup on golang routes the output through a sanitization so tight you can't do anything that you couldn't do in MD itself
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tantek KevinMarks: not at all - auto_link is intended to work on plain text
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tantek Vendan - that's an even better point
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tantek.com edited /podcast (+36) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ subheads for people" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Makerba.se (+183) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Makerbase (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is wavelist?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wavelist" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=wavelist&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-12%2Fline%2F1431457603524
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tantek.com edited /podcast (+146) "Other Examples / Wavelist" (view diff)
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tantek fine
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tantek Wavelist is a collection of podcast episodes curated into playlists by individuals. http://wavelist.xyz/
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loqi.me created /Wavelist (+131) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431457603524 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /podcast (-19) "/* Other Examples */ linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Wavelist (+34) "see also, linky" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd, erinjo feel free to expand on https://indiewebcamp.com/Wavelist !
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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benwerd :)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 12 seconds ago: feel free to expand on https://indiewebcamp.com/Wavelist ! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431457801882
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loqi.me created /Ben_and_Erins_new_project (+21) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /Ben_and_Erins_new_project to /Ben_and_Erin's_new_project "apostrophe"
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tantek.com edited /Ben_and_Erins_new_project (-18) "-r" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Wavelist (+98) (view diff)
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snarfed got an interesting (to me at least) indieweb use case
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message on 5/10 at 6:25pm: bridgy needs but doesn't have user_events permissions scope :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-10/line/1431307535502
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message on 5/10 at 10:40pm: well I submitted user_events and user_photos ... fingers crossed http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-10/line/1431322800486
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snarfed a friend asked me to delete a few bridgy-backfed comments on snarfed.org
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snarfed i'd like to hide them instead of deleting them altogether
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snarfed nothing too special there…wordpress just doesn't support it. i can trash or spam or unapprove them, but i can't mark them private like i can with posts
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snarfed maybe "there's a plugin for that" :P
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tantek A makes public comment on B's public post on silo C. B's site copies comment to their own site. A wants copy of comment removed (or hidden)
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tantek is that about right?
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snarfed yes
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tantek snarfed, what if you edit the contents of the comment to say "see original on: (link to original comment wherever it was made) "
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snarfed (arguably the silo part of the user story is unnecessary)
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tantek pretty sure WP allows admins to edit comments
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snarfed tantek: not a bad idea. and yes wp does. i expect he'll delete the silo copies too though
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tantek snarfed: silo part is necessary because the problem is the copy you make *to your own site*
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tantek it's necessary to make it clear stuff is happening on/of copies on multiple sites
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tantek also - deletion of the original comment is an existing use-case
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snarfed but most server implementations store a copy of indie replies etc too
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snarfed yup, re existing use case, you beat me to it
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snarfed (had that half typed :P)
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snarfed maybe the only interesting question is etiquette: whether comment recipients should hide or delete their own copy
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tantek can bridgy send 410s for such cases?
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snarfed i think it's a filed FR
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snarfed finding
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tantek agreed re: etiquette
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/9
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snarfed #9, single digit! (only exciting to me and kylewm :P)
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snarfed wm spec says if the source deletes their mention and re-wms you, you should delete your copy too: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#updating-existing-webmentions
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snarfed meh
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tantek snarfed: see /webmention :P
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tantek github spec is out of date because it fell victim to the non-community bottleneck problem
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tantek this is why github kinda sucks for open specs :P
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snarfed right, http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Should_webmentions_be_sent_for_removals
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snarfed agreed, you took the words out of my mouth
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snarfed the wm spec duplication/skew is definitely disappointing
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tantek well it proves the point about github
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tantek don't use it for specs
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tantek snarfed: see also https://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+16) "/* Should webmentions be sent for removals */ main deleted" (view diff)
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snarfed sure, agreed re github for specs. it'd just also be nice to try to solve this specific instance
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snarfed seems like delete vs hide policy is an open question
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snarfed pro hide: some recipients will want to own their responses permanently
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snarfed pro delete: some sources will want to be able to fully delete their own posts and all copies
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snarfed not entirely realistic - information wants to be free, etc - but still a clear desire sometimes
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snarfed e.g. silos sometimes try to make promises around how fast and how completely they delete your data when you ask
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: i think delete vs hide can be left to individual implementations
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: in general, i agree. in this case though, there are two stakeholders, the sender and the receiver
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snarfed the interesting question arises when they disagree
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KartikPrabhu again isn't that best left up to the 2 parties involved?
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KartikPrabhu I mean the webmention spec can't recommend a particular way to resolve the conflict :P
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snarfed definitely! that's why i keep using the words "etiquette" and "policy"
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snarfed it's not a technical problem, so the spec shouldn't try to solve it, but we as a community can definitely come up with guidelines/best practices
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KartikPrabhu true
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tantek we can document the choices and explain reasons for each, leaving it up to individuals
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kylewm snarfed: I'm sorry I don't know this, does Bridgy already send a 410 for a deleted comment?
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snarfed kylewm: no, i don't think so
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snarfed i believe it detects deletes as well as changes at https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/tasks.py#L257 , and resends wms for them
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snarfed but i think the mf2 handlers just pass through the silo's 400 or 404 or whatever for an API call for a deleted response
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snarfed i'd happily merge a PR that returns 410 instead when we can reliably detect deletes
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KevinMarks__ reads scrollback
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KevinMarks__ re http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431446251589 kylewm you don't have to iterate over the whole hash -you lookup "feed" in rels then iterate over those urls in rel-urls
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KevinMarks__ data = mf2py.parse(url='https://ben.thatmustbe.me/'); [url for url in data['rels']['feed'] if data['rel-urls'].get(url,{}).get('type','')=="text/html"]
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kylewm gotcha, yeah that would work too
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ben_thatmustbeme dang, ruby mf2 parser hasn't been touched in a year
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kylewm who even wrote that ruby parser?
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ben_thatmustbeme names i don't recognize other than Shane Becker
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kylewm jlsuttles too
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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ben_thatmustbeme never spoken to jlsuttles, sooooo
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why
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kylewm she was at pdx last year
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Lancey hello
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ben_thatmustbeme hello Lancey
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Lancey what's good everyone?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm almost heading home... thats good
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Lancey i'll say
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kylewm what brings you here Lancey?
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Lancey not much, i saw the website and have just been working on a little blog
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gRegorLove Welcome, Lancey
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Lancey thank you
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kylewm have you been able to log into the wiki already?
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@adactio “Indieweb: Die Daten Sind Wir!” https://twitter.com/adactio/status/598238450853224448/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/598238450853224448)
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Lancey kylewm, yes i have!
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kylewm nice!
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Lancey i don't have anything on my user page though
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kylewm you can add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people too when you have a chance :)
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Lancey sweet, thanks!
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Lancey the wiki's running a bit slow for me so that'll take a bit
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KevinMarks__ bring back vote links! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431448516047
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KevinMarks__ vote links do seem like a fit for vouch lists
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gRegorLove What are vote links?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "vote links" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vote+links&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-12%2Fline%2F1431466760825
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lancey.space edited /IRC_People (+88) "/* Nicknames */ Added myself (Lancey)" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ vote links are http://microformats.org/wiki/votelinks an old proposal for indicating agreement and disagreement with a linked url
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loqi.me created /vote_links (+156) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431466760825 and dfn added by KevinMarks__" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Vendan Hey, Lancey, what are you using for your blog?
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Lancey i'm using django and building from there
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Lancey so i guess django then
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Vendan heh, cool.
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gRegorLove Nice URL and pixel art.
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Vendan I'm building one on top of golang myself
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Lancey oh rad
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Lancey i gotta learn golang
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Lancey i hopped on the rust train but that stopped being exciting haha
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Lancey gRegorLove, thanks!
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: You're running Django, right?
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KartikPrabhu yup
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gRegorLove Oh, you're not on /Django#IndieWeb_Examples yet
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KartikPrabhu I'm not! weird
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gRegorLove Yeah, thought that was odd. Also thought the list there was longer
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Lancey i think i'll wait a bit before i add myself
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KartikPrabhu lot of python people but not Django
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Lancey don't even have webmentions working
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KartikPrabhu Lancey: if you can log into the wiki then definitely add yourself :)
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gRegorLove (to http://indiewebcamp.com/Django)
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Lancey i saw we had some recommended frameworks for blogs but i don't think i saw anything django based
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KartikPrabhu Lancey: my site code is not open yet. its pretty messy
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KartikPrabhu I am working towards it
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Lancey maybe if there were more mf2 compatible blog platforms written in django
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KartikPrabhu for instance: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/connection
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Lancey mine's awful too, don't worry
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gRegorLove That's no problem, Lancey. Baby steps. :) Tantek doesn't accept webmentions yet either.
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KevinMarks__ the comments about sample code exampels being microblogs was interesting
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KevinMarks__ (in #social earlier)
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KevinMarks__ wodner if finding them and sending mf2-adding pull requests would be worth the effort
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gRegorLove Huh. Django doesn't really have a section on /projects either.
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gRegorLove Guess it's "under construction" though I don't know the latest status of that.
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Lancey django?
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gRegorLove No, sorry. The /projects page on the IWC wiki
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Lancey bundle uses django
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Django (+130) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added me" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu Lancey: yup! added myself and /Bundle on /Django
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Bundle (+4) "/* Tools Used */ linky Django page" (view diff)
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lancey.space edited /Django (+119) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added my page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu what is file storage?
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Loqi File Storage is the practice of storing main (primary) site content in flat files in a filesystem https://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Bundle (+80) "/* Working On */ add Pullback" (view diff)
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Vendan heh, my blog uses a key/value datastore for primary datastorage
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Bundle (+135) "/* Working On */ add fragmentioner. reorder by priority" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu Vendan: in flat files or database?
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Vendan in process "database"
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Vendan https://github.com/boltdb/bolt
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KartikPrabhu Vendan: hmmm can one open the files in a text-editor/viewer and inspect them directly?
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Vendan nope
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KartikPrabhu hmm then it is a /database i guess
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Vendan I'm considering going flat file, but bolt does have several features that I do like
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KevinMarks__ ooh, firefox landed srcset support
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Vendan can probably replicate most of them with flat files though, so that's one thing
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KevinMarks__ updates
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KevinMarks__ and on mobile too
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Vendan ugh, I get the heebie-jeebies when I see someone running gogs
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KevinMarks__ my crazy 4x oversampled icons work
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KevinMarks__ :D
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Vendan KartikPrabhu, one of the differences, imho, is that there isn't a lot of what is considered "DBA tax"
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KartikPrabhu what is database tax?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "database tax" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=database+tax&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-12%2Fline%2F1431469105876
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KartikPrabhu waah!!?
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Vendan https://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern
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KartikPrabhu Vendan: oh you mean file storage does not have DBA tax or that this one you are using doesn't?
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Vendan the one I'm using has very minimal DBA tax
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KevinMarks__ Vendan: did you see camlistore?
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Vendan basically import/export and backup
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Vendan interesting, though it took a bit too long to get to an actual description of what it is
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KevinMarks__ Brad is better at coding than docs, yes.
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Vendan and it immediately failed 2 of my current criteria, though they are low and medium priority
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Vendan big one is really "in-process, no extra server software required"
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KevinMarks__ ah, right
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KevinMarks__ that is a different goal yes
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Vendan I would prefer single file with entire db in it, but I'm ok with the idea of "faking" that by supporting import/export as archives
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Vendan ^ main reason I don't use file-storage as it stands, but not really a big issue
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KevinMarks__ tanteks sharding model might be worth a look
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Vendan my goal is 2~3 files to upload and get it running about anywhere, including on shared hosting
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KevinMarks__ http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743425/Falcon#WhatdoestheHTML5hAtomstorelooklike
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Vendan that's a little... odd
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@ChrisAldrich Just noticed via @benborges_ that @dshanske has a semantic markup plugin for @WordPress under way! https://github.com/dshanske/wp-semantics #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/598254100766154752)
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tantek_ Those are the old docs. See /Falcon for the latest.
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KevinMarks__ ah, so http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format
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@_Ryan_Tharp RT @LukasRosenstock: I wrote a short blog post about my experience of attending #IndieWebCampGermany2015, check it out: http://t.co/i8uQQLx… (twitter.com/_/status/598255466162978817)
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raucao kylewm: one question: is http://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery#Set_up_your_site correct in that it can only be an h-feed, but not rss or atom?
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raucao it looks like known is missing h-feed by default
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tantek h-feed isn't strictly necessary for common/minimal use-cases
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raucao not that it's hard to add, just making sure i can't use the default theme/layout
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tantek raucao: the key is h-entry for each post
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raucao tantek: the key?
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raucao oh i see
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tantek the important part
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raucao so there is no enclosing h-feed
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raucao as long as the document has h-entries somewhere
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tantek it's not strictly needed unless you want to give the h-feed its own name from the page its own
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tantek s/its own/its on
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Loqi tantek meant to say: it's not strictly needed unless you want to give the h-feed its on name from the page its on
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tantek oops
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raucao hehe
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raucao tantek: alright, thanks!
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+166) "/* Set up your site */ note h-entry is key, h-feed is optional, linky, code markup" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: ^^^ for your review
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kylewm that's great, tantek
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raucao so, twitter links to https://sebastian.kip.pe which has "<link rel="feed" type="text/html" title="updates.kip.pe" href="https://updates.kip.pe/content/all"/>" and that url has h-entry items, but bridgy says no post links found for my test fav: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/skddc (cc kylewm)
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kylewm looking
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raucao cool, thx
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tantek Vendan: I'm back at a keyboard if you had any questions about Falcon's flat file storage format.
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Vendan not particularly
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Vendan not really interested in parsing html to get the data to render html
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tantek it was the easiest storage format for me to personally edit / verify by hand
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tantek so I built from there
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tantek figuring hand inspectability / editability was paramount for data quality / repairing data corruption etc.
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tantek as opposed to random CSV, or JSON or shudder XML
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KevinMarks__ I thought it was XML, so you could use path queries - did that change?
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tantek others choose markdown instead, yet I don't how you would put / identify multiple markdown posts into a single file
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tantek and one post per file = perf problems as kylewm found out
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Vendan possibly, but imho, I'd rather optimize for the main use case and go from there
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tantek Vendan: I optimized for data quality / reliability over the long run
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Vendan heh, depends on your language, really
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tantek which to me means human inspectability / fixability
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Vendan I can do single file per post with amazing levels of performance
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tantek has inspected far too many file formats in byte editors :/
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tantek interesting
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tantek I think aaronpk does too - somehow
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Vendan cause I can just cache stuff into memory and keep it there
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kylewm raucao: any clue why it would be going to remotestorage.io?
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kylewm raucao: did you previously redirect to remotestorage.io or something?
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tantek KevinMarks: my HTML5 is well-formed XML but it's not "proper XML" which has all kinds of assumptions of using custom tags and attributes
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tantek what is proper XML?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "proper XML" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=proper+XML&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-12%2Fline%2F1431472980923
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raucao kylewm: what's going to remotestorage.io?
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Vendan having a single persistent server handling all requests makes it easier
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tantek proper XML is when you use XML as it was intended, that is, you make up your own very specific tag names and attributes for a complete one-off bespoke format that no one else can understand or interoperate with.
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loqi.me created /proper_XML (+238) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431472980923 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Vendan I love the sass in that dfn
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kylewm raucao: bridgy starts posse-post-discovery, and instead of fetching your updates.kipp.pe page, it fetches remotestorage.io ... i'm wondering if bridgy had an old redirect still cached or something
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tantek did IndieWeb really make it to the cover of a German magazine in bold ALLCAPS? https://twitter.com/adactio/status/598238450853224448
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@adactio “Indieweb: Die Daten Sind Wir!” https://twitter.com/adactio/status/598238450853224448/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/598238450853224448)
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raucao kylewm: maybe an sni issue?
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raucao for updates. it doesn't make a lot of sense
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kylewm what about for sebastian.kip.pe?
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raucao that's on the same ip as remotestorage.io using sni for tls
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kylewm interesting!
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tantek.com created /database_tax (+42) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-12/line/1431469105876" (view diff)
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raucao kylewm: i have no idea how it would even know of the domain remotestorage.io though
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raucao weird
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raucao checking logs...
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kylewm I'm out of my depth with SNI/TLS stuff
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kylewm but snarfed might know more
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raucao might be an outdated curl or sth. what http client is brid.gy using?
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kylewm it's on google appengine, they use their own urlfetch thing
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raucao hmm, that should work
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raucao sni is very common these days. it's the only way for different domains to use tls on the same ip
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kylewm raucao: did you log into bridgy directly, or did you authorize via https://updates.kip.pe/account/bridgy/
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raucao oh, i re-authed directly on bridy
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raucao right
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kylewm sorry I think nevermind
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kylewm i was mistake
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kylewm n
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KevinMarks__ specially for tantek: https://tangrams.github.io/tangram-sandbox/tangram.html?styles/matrix.yaml#16.785/51.51895/-0.09306
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__: tantek might do a js;dr on that one :P
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Vendan well, that's a js;can't read for me
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Vendan shows nothing but a little bit of ui that looks like a map renderer
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GWG Anyone know who Chris Aldrich is and why he is following my WordPress microformats stuff with interest?
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raucao kylewm: i can't find anything that looks like an app engine UA in my logs
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KevinMarks__ needs webgl, so firefox or chrome
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GWG I'd like to engage.
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tantek GWG, is he in NYC? Invite him out to HWC!
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tantek @ reply him on Twitter
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raucao kylewm: for https://sebastian.kip.pe that is
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kylewm raucao: how about UA='Bridgy (http://brid.gy/about)'
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raucao nope
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raucao just a bunch of irc clients and browsers in the last 2 hours
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kylewm it's possible bridgy fakes the user agent to look like a browser, but i cna't find it rn
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raucao got bridgy
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raucao hmm, all yesterday morning
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raucao only 5
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GWG It says LA on his Twitter profile
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raucao yesterday means may 12 for me
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GWG http://boffosocko.com/
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GWG I'm horrible with names
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tantek Vendan - I had to load it in FF, with a lot of scripts. Safari/Webkit didn't work for me (re: that matrix.yaml thing)
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Vendan I tried in what is basically stock FF and it ground my computer to a halt till I killed it
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raucao kylewm: so maybe it cached that there wasn't any feed linked yesterday?
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raucao that would explain it. not sure how remotestorage.io fits in that story
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KevinMarks__ right, WebGL is in chrome/ff not safari afaik
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KevinMarks__ crashes firefox on android
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raucao KevinMarks__: i think ios 8 introduced webgl
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kylewm raucao: how recently did you add rel=feed?
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raucao kylewm: just a couple of hours ago
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