#indiewebcamp 2015-05-19

2015-05-19 UTC
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Vendan ands honestly, there's a point where optimizing a few hundred bytes over the ability to read the data hurts more then helps :)
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aaronpk turns out scanning a 1.5mb text file in a foreach look looking for matching lines is not as slow as I would have thought
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aaronpk i'm turning my shorturl database into a file, but there are like 30000 entries
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aaronpk it's responding in 10ms now even with the horribly inefficient search method, so I think I'm just gonna leave it :)
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Vendan in php or what?
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Vendan cause that's fairly impressive for php
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk well response time depends on how far it gets through the file :)
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aaronpk results: with file() response time varies from 19-140ms, with fgets() it's .1-120ms
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Vendan lol
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aaronpk i'm okay with this :)
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KevinMarks how often does it change?
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aaronpk never anymore
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aaronpk if i reeeaaallly want to I can just add stuff to the file
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KevinMarks seems like it should fit in RAM a lot of the time
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aaronpk does file() do that under php-fpm? I don't really know
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KevinMarks nor me. I think a lot of the OS/language assumptions are very old and use small buffers
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Vendan nope
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Vendan php fastcgi is still horrible inefficient
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GWG I use php-fpm myself
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Vendan that's still php fastcgi, just with a fancy process manager frontent
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Vendan frontend*
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Vendan the last time I tried to optimize php fastcgi, I ended up writing the fastcgi serverloop in php itself, cause php, even with opcode caching and all, still read the php code off the disk for every request
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aaronpk coulda just put the php code in a ramdisk :)
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Vendan still, you are instantiating the objects, just to tear them back down few milliseconds later, and then instantiating them the next request
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Vendan I was handling 6000+ requests per second using a simple framework when <?php echo "hello world"; ?> was only doing 2000 on the same hardware
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aaronpk jeez. I hope you actually had a good reason for that kind of optimization
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Vendan nope, it's not even running anywhere
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Vendan that was just proving to myself that php's fastcgi is ridiculous
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aaronpk haha
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Vendan I had fun with it, all the way to a template engine that compiled code down to flat php functions
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Vendan did straces to run down all the syscalls, to make sure I wasn't hitting the filesystem or anything
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Vendan my biggest issue was it was doing a syscall to ask the system time over and over, cause I had time based caching
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Vendan and it had to compare times to see if the cache had expired yet
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Vendan but running a (admittedly rather simple) blog and beating out a hello world in the same language is kinda insane
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KevinMarks so if I want to turn SVG into PNG programmatically, any suggestions?
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KevinMarks I can see how to do it in a browser, but libs to do it on servers seem to be hard to find
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aaronpk imagemagick can do it i think
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aaronpk apparently inkscape is better
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KevinMarks ah, or do it in node using the browser engine
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KevinMarks phantom.js
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aaronpk oh sure, if you're into that sort of thing
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GWG Vendan: You are much more obsessive about these things than I am, clearly.
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GWG I ran a server for a company with millions of pageviews until I quit with the internet equivalent of duct tape and chicken wire.
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Vendan oh, the project I work on at work is crappy php, and I wish I could replace it
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Vendan I just like optimizing stuff for the fun of it :D
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GWG Vendan: I work with WordPress. I'm a glutton for punishment, I guess
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Vendan I'm rather antsy about the fact that my current indieweb software is down to only 1000 requests per second
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Vendan and that's mainly cause I haven't bothered to do caching or turn on multithreading
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GWG Vendan: Has anyone needed to request more than that?
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Vendan nope, that's why I haven't done it yet
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Vendan something in my is still like "oh, I could do so much better" and the other part is like "What's the point, it's 100000x more then I need at this point"
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GWG It's a challenge.
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GWG And what is the world without challenges?
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Vendan that being said, I don't start myself off from a losing position :)
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GWG Vendan: A dig at WordPress?
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GWG Or PHP?
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Vendan both
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GWG I'll accept either.
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GWG Vendan: Think of it this way. I develop Indieweb plugins for WordPress.
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GWG Most people won't switch platforms. They are more likely to add to their existing
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Vendan true
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GWG I am where I feel I do the most good
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GWG What is the WordPress Outreach Committee?
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Loqi The WordPress Outreach Club is a group of active IndieWebCamp participants who reach out to individuals already running WordPress to add IndieWeb functionality to their existing sites https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress_Outreach_Committee
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GWG Committee, Club...I can never remember
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Vendan I'm going for "anyone can use it" myself
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Vendan nowhere near there yet :D
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Vendan one of my thoughts, for when broadband starts picking up, is to package up a small image for something like CHIP or a raspberry pi, that'll be your indieweb
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GWG Isn't there an idea on that?
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Vendan but that needs IPv6 and broadband whose upload doesn't stink to really do much
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GWG I still don't get IPV6
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GWG Something about my provider giving me 4 billion addresses boggles my mind
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Vendan meh, the main point is that you won't need to NAT out the one address your isp gives you, and it won't need to by dynamicaly assigned
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Vendan to be*
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GWG I used 5 so far
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Vendan NAT+Dynamic addresses mean people won't feel comfortable hosting a site at their house
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Vendan though, really, NAT is the biggest part of it
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GWG This is Linode
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GWG Not my home
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GWG I had the hardest time finding literature on what Time Warner was doing
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Vendan ruining my day, most of the time
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GWG You and me both
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Vendan lol
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GWG Anyway, I'm still, to get back on room topic...
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Vendan but yeah, I can respect the whole convert users that are on wordpress already, just nowhere near willing to install it on my server or deal with PHP outside of work
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GWG Maybe you can help me with my problem
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GWG Which is not specifically a PHP or a WordPress problem
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GWG IT is a general programming issue
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Vendan ?
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GWG I'm trying to design better display code. So, basically, I've built a system to store and retrieve information about a post...I want to display it with the appropriate markup.
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GWG Trying to design the code.
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GWG The original version is horrible and hacky.
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KevinMarks hm, I can do png conversion as part of the browser upload
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KevinMarks :D
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Vendan issue is, that's still highly programming language specific
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GWG Really?
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Vendan for instance, golang templating is much more strict about separating data and presentation then even strict php frameworks are
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GWG I'm a C/Pascal/C++/PHP programmer from way back
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GWG So, most of the stuff I do is pretty similar on the syntax
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Vendan fun tidbit, unless you override it, golang templates are xss safe
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Vendan so, the way I would do it(and am working on), is to define classes for each different post type
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Vendan well, I say classes, but the are really structs, but they act more like classes in most languages
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Vendan and all the classes implement a common interface, and one of the functions on that interface is to render that "kind" of post
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Vendan I build up a list of all the posts I'm rendering, run through all their Render() functions, and that's it
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Vendan you may be able to do something similar, but ymmv
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GWG So, in PHP, that is object oriented inheritance
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Vendan heh, yeah, just turned on it's head
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Vendan which doesn't matter much for this simple of a thing
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GWG Vendan: You may have just given me something to try.
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Vendan cool
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GWG I hadn't considered inheritance with a common ancestor
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GWG This is why I need someone to bounce problems off of.
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Vendan pretty sure php can do interfaces now
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Vendan the other fun thing is I actually pass a "template" object to the render method, that stores all the templates for rendering posts
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GWG It may. But I'm pretty old school
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GWG I can update myself, I suppose
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Vendan so if I want a different style of post rendering, for stuff like reply-context, I can just use the same structs and pass a different template object
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Loqi gives Vendan a different style of post rendering
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Vendan oh, and bret, feel free to ping me if you don't understand anything, I'm horrid at commenting and documentation
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Vendan I'll probably start going over the parser, just cause it's most likely to get used elsewhere
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bret Vendan: i've never written a parser (other than regex stuffs), and still learning go. ill be constructive promise :)
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Vendan lol, well, most of it isn't parser
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Vendan golang has a pretty heavy duty parser
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Vendan most of it is just walking the resulting expression tree
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bret fhew!
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Vendan if you want something to look at, there should be a //todo normalize urls comment in there
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Vendan really need to get a baseurl stored in the parser struct, then run any urls found through http://golang.org/pkg/net/url/#URL.ResolveReference
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Vendan and also watch for .DataAtom == atom.Base or so, and parse it's url to override the baseurl in the parser struct
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GWG !tell acegiak I'm breaking things again. Stay tuned.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak GWG: fun times!
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 12 minutes ago: I'm breaking things again. Stay tuned. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-18/line/1432012512589
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GWG acegiak: It should be an improvement in future expansion.
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acegiak kk
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acegiak So, is it worth me submitting a pull for my minor changes?
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GWG acegiak: I might be changing something that you want to
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GWG acegiak: What is the pull designed to address?
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GWG I am in the display code right now.
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acegiak Just enabling the play kind and adding the duration meta
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@physcocode This is my first post from my website and step towards indieweb future. This post is just to check weather .. http://pranjalp.com/2015/this-is-my-first-post-from-my-website-and-step (twitter.com/_/status/600548104098582528)
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fkooman morning :)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /User:Atomicules.co.uk (+34) (view diff)
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@btconf Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600591662813941760)
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@marcthiele RT @btconf: Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600591706329853953)
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@bastianallgeier RT @btconf: Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600592277216567296)
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marcthiele Starting to upload some of the photos of the IndieWebCamp during #btconf. Will all be in the wiki and on Flickr later.
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@silentdan RT @btconf: Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600595786079035393)
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@LukasRosenstock RT @btconf: Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600595934951690240)
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@maxlath #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou https://twitter.com/maxlath/status/600600701497126912/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/600600701497126912)
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@btconf Added the coverage I found to the #IndieWebCamp during #btconf. Was fun organising it. Now Berlin? ;) http://lanyrd.com/2015/btconfdus/sdgwfm/ (twitter.com/_/status/600605330993709056)
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@marcthiele RT @btconf: Added the coverage I found to the #IndieWebCamp during #btconf. Was fun organising it. Now Berlin? ;) http://lanyrd.com/2015/btconfdus/sdgwfm/ (twitter.com/_/status/600605856523247616)
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@jkphl RT @btconf: Added the coverage I found to the #IndieWebCamp during #btconf. Was fun organising it. Now Berlin? ;) http://lanyrd.com/2015/btconfdus/sdgwfm/ (twitter.com/_/status/600606684004876288)
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@elfpavlik RT @maxlath: #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou http://t.co/KX… (twitter.com/_/status/600610902090584064)
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@pierreozoux RT @maxlath: #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou http://t.co/KX… (twitter.com/_/status/600611622974001153)
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@IndieHosters RT @maxlath: #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou http://t.co/KX… (twitter.com/_/status/600611623003365376)
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atomicules Hello. Just dropping in to say that since starting with Indieweb at the start if this year, I've now implemented POSSEing links, photos and notes
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@OuiShareLabs RT @maxlath: #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou http://t.co/KX… (twitter.com/_/status/600615868142354432)
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atomicules I forgot actually that this channel would automatically pick up some of my embarrassing test note/tweet syndications.
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany02.jpg]]""
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany03.jpg]]""
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany04.jpg]]""
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany05.jpg]]""
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany07.jpg]]""
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atomicules Anyway, I may not post here much, but I do lurk and am very much an Indieweb convert.
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marcthiele.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcampgermany08.jpg]]""
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atomicules I guess next for me will be looking at Webmentions. I'm going to take a look at the jekmentions tool.
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voxpelli atomicules: feel free to also try https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ – that's what I use for my jekyll site
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@OuiShare RT @maxlath: #oslabs15 @michielbdejong on sharing between #indieweb platforms https://etherpad.mozilla.org/decsharing #MayTheEldersBeWithYou http://t.co/KX… (twitter.com/_/status/600617302963388416)
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atomicules voxpelli: I have had a look in the past. I'll have a look again.
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voxpelli atomicules: ping me if you have any questions, requests or such :)
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atomicules Having had a look at jekmentions I wouldn't be able to use as-is any way. Might write my own.
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atomicules voxpelli: thanks.
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voxpelli atomcules: you can always export all of the mentions from my endpoint, so it could be a way for you to get started, and then you can move to your own when you have one
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atomicules voxpelli: Good idea. That might be a plan.
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voxpelli been thinking to maybe add a passthrough options for the webmention pings so one could have my endpoint forward a ping to another endpoint – to ease the transition
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@marcthiele “Indie web camps are NOT endless theoretical discussions […]” – @bastianallgeier sums up what #IndieWebCamp is: http://bastianallgeier.com/notes/indie-web (twitter.com/_/status/600621077354647552)
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@SecuringPHP Chris Shiflett (@shiflett) has posted about using IndieAuth for authentication using your own domain: http://shiflett.org/blog/2015/may/indie-web-movement-and-indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/600623746710413312)
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@e3BethT RT @SecuringPHP: Chris Shiflett (@shiflett) has posted about using IndieAuth for authentication using your own domain: http://t.co/ElWXNDXC… (twitter.com/_/status/600629058376990722)
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@ajspadial Always post in your site, and share a repost in whatever other palce @RojasCastroA #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/600629262740267008)
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@owzim RT @marcthiele: “Indie web camps are NOT endless theoretical discussions […]” – @bastianallgeier sums up what #IndieWebCamp is: http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/600634469482110976)
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GWG Good morning, IRC Chat Room
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LanceyWork hello!
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GWG Hi, LanceyWork
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LanceyWork i've been working on translating @-refs in notes to twitter localized handles
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@mluiesp RT @ajspadial: Always post in your site, and share a repost in whatever other palce @RojasCastroA #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/600650072351764480)
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tommorris LanceyWork: that sounds interesting, something I've tried to think about in the past. any documentation of what you've been doing?
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tommorris LanceyWork: either on your own site or on indiewebcamp.com wiki would be really useful
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LanceyWork i didn't find anything
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LanceyWork atm i've just checked if the atref is a valid domain name, did a get on the site, searched for rel-me links to twitter, and pulled the handle off that
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LanceyWork there is probably a better way to do that
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@anna_blume_hh RT @JockelLohkamp: Thx @elfpavlik @DTNConf @border_none @decentcamp @GETDcent @indiewebcamp Interested in Tix! (twitter.com/_/status/600651304936026113)
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@OuiShareLabs discussing @withknown perks in #oslabs15 #indieweb workshop: possibility of having a private site! cc @ouisharehello https://stream.ouisharelabs.net/2015/discussing-withknown-perks-in-oslabs15-indieweb-workshop-possibility-of-having (twitter.com/_/status/600651578635354112)
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tommorris LanceyWork: that's a cool solution. any chance you could put that in the wiki?
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LanceyWork i want to finish working on it first, have to do it backwards now
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LanceyWork then i'm going to do it backwards and forwards to go from an @-ref that isn't a domain name to the intended website
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Loqi [mention] Auli Kütt commented 'and yes @t we show shortlinks on #oslabs @withknown to explicit that there's something *behind* the obvious twitter :)' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-18/line/1431956353275 (https://stream.ouisharelabs.net/2015/and-yes-t-we-show-shortlinks-on-oslabs-withknown-to)
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LanceyWork ie @tommorris would link to tommorris.org when i write up a note on my site without having to do extra work
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tommorris yep, that's very nifty.
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LanceyWork https://github.com/Lancey6/lancey.space/blob/master/possem/twitter.py this is the source code for my twitter module (pardon the quality)
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tommorris LanceyWork++
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Loqi LanceyWork has 1 karma
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tommorris also python ftw
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LanceyWork the logic for pulling out twitter handles is in assemble_tweet
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tommorris python++
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Loqi python has 5 karma
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LanceyWork python++
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Loqi python has 6 karma
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tantek marcthiele++ for taking and uploading photos from 2015 IndieWebCamp Germany!
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Loqi marcthiele has 1 karma
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tantek LanceyWork - there's a bunch of work and previous sessions on the wiki that folks have discussed re: auto-completing names/URL of people including @-names
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LanceyWork oh really? could you link it?
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tantek looking for it :)
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tantek (clearly we didn't make it easy enough to find)
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LanceyWork haha
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Loqi ahahahaha
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tantek marcthiele++ for co-organizing IndieWebCamp Germany and helping with venue and all the other things that helped make IndieWebCamp Germany awesome!
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tantek is seeing if he can ++ someone twice within minutes
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tantek looks like no.
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tantek there's at least this: https://indiewebcamp.com/nicknamescache
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tantek hmm
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tantek.com created /nicknamescache (+29) "r" (view diff)
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tantek a-ha LanceyWork: https://indiewebcamp.com/nicknames-cache#Easier_Person_References_When_Writing
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LanceyWork thank you!
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LanceyWork tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 191 karma
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tantek and another! https://indiewebcamp.com/autosuggest
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tantek.com edited /nicknames-cache (+71) "link to autosuggest and mention autocomplete to improve findability" (view diff)
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marcthiele.com edited /User:Marcthiele.com (+47) "/* working on */" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /Portable_Contacts (+31) "linking to [[social-standards-efforts]]" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris: have you seen /autosuggest and /nicknamescache ?
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tommorris.org created /standards_efforts (+664) "a quick little list" (view diff)
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GWG I am stuck again.
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tommorris tantek: I haven't
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tantek tommorris: ^^^ seriously? how many such lists do we need?
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marcthiele.com edited /Events (+361) "/* 2015 */" (view diff)
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tantek what are social standards?
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Loqi social standards refers to web standards that have a social component, that is, for people (e.g https://indiewebcamp.com/social_standards
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GWG I am back on trying to figure out how to get around WordPress and it's single content hook being inside e-content.
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tantek tommorris: I don't really see the usefulness of such a page /standards_efforts as it is now - and frankly, I've seen far too many such random lists of projects/standards on wikipedia that are nearly useless (but I have no desire to get into a wiki-edit fight with anyone there about)
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tantek tommorris: the #microformats wiki is a more appropriate place to just do arbitrary documentation of prior standards work/attempts/proposals like that.
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tantek preferably focused by general area.
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GWG tantek: Are there any microformats that can be nested inside e-content?
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tantek sure - they all can - you can even put properties inside properties like that and it will work fine
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tommorris tantek: the existing list was more focussed on the standards that indiewebcamp was using. I kind of wanted a list of standards we'd looked at, so we could document them. if it's out of scope, happy to delete/revert or move
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tantek I think it's out of scope for #indiewebcamp because it's not helpful for building
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tantek that kind of general documentation of past efforts is much better suited to microformats.org/wiki
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GWG I think I may have to give up and move the in-reply-to back into e-content.
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tantek also - that kind of framing with "implied moral of this list" will likely just invite more defensive talk/conversations about standards no one is actually building on for their own sites - and thus be a distraction / noise amongst the rest of our more focused / productive discussion in IWC
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tantek so I guess two things: 1) I don't think such a general (no specific category/focus) list of past efforts is useful on IWC. 2) there may be some instances where it is worth documenting *specific* such efforts on their own pages, e.g. by listing the modern replacement that supersedes the prior effort
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tantek e.g. see /OpenID which evolved from something we depended on, to something that was dying, to something we replaced with a simpler alternative
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LanceyWork ok, that just leaves converting a reply url to a twitter context if possible
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tantek for 2) instances of documenting *specific* such efforts on their own pages, there should be some real world reason for doing so
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tantek e.g. one or more of 1. indieweb community folks support it live on their site (thus non-empty IndieWeb Examples section). 2. indieweb community folks *tried* supporting it, and gave up, for *specific* reasons (must be documented). 3. indieweb community folks looked it, but didn't bother to even try supporting it for *specific* reasons.
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tantek 4. indieweb community created something that *supersedes* the prior effort, and thus it helps to create a page for the prior effort just to at least redirect people to the new/modern thing that supersedes it.
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tantek 5. more than one person in IRC has asked about the past effort, and there was sufficient response discussing why the past effort is not in use by the indieweb community to document a specific Criticisms section for that specific past effort
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tantek 6. possibly other real world reasons
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tantek but the larger point is, simply yet-another-unfocused-list of previous efforts is not helpful to anyone and may actually incite more noise than signal
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tantek LanceyWork what do you mean by "converting a reply url to a twitter context "?
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tantek like a reply URL that's a tweet permalink?
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LanceyWork if it's a tweet permalink, or something that's been tweeted (ie posse'd from another indiewebsite), then specify the tweet as in_reply_to_status_id
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LanceyWork ala http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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tantek great! you found that!
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LanceyWork yeah, the twitter page on the iwc wiki makes for a pretty good checklist
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tantek if you were looking for a simple/dumb function to go from tweet permalink to twitter status ID: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L1454 tw_url_to_status_id :)
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LanceyWork i was just gonna use the regex at the link i posted, but thanks!
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tantek yeah I wrote most of the /Twitter page incrementally while implementing the functionality on my site (and in my software /Falcon ) - though at some point I started extrapolating so now the /Twitter page goes beyond what I've implemented so far (but serves as a checklist for my future coding)
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tantek I wrote tw_url_to_status_id semi-defensively so you could throw any URL at it and have it return 0 or a valid status ID, with nearly no chance for false positives
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snarfed LanceyWork: you may also be interested in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial (specifically https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/twitter.py ), if only for ideas
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LanceyWork https://twitter.com/LanceCoyote/status/600671665824014337 woooo
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@LanceCoyote @lancecoyote Got it :3 (http://lancey.space p19) (twitter.com/_/status/600671665824014337)
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tantek let's try that ++ again
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tantek marcthiele++ for co-organizing IndieWebCamp Germany and helping with venue and all the other things that helped make IndieWebCamp Germany awesome!
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Loqi marcthiele has 2 karma
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tantek looks like once an hour or so. Seems reasonable.
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@LanceCoyote Twitter integration is all done (I think). Gonna write up a blog post about it, then lunch. #IndieWeb #POSSE (http://lancey.space p21) (twitter.com/_/status/600674993907765250)
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Loqi [bridgy] Frank Roeseler liked a post http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://www.facebook.com/548616784/posts/10153000128066785)
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aaronpk i seem to have inadvertently found myself contributing to and having strong opinions about the PubSubHubbub spec
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented 'There's no point in adopting a spec that doesn't actually tell you what to do, other than to have the official stamp of approval of that spe...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push#Wildcards (https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/05/19/2/pubsubhubbub)
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented 'There's no point in adopting a spec that doesn't actually tell you what to do, other than to have the official stamp of approval of that spe...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push#Multiple_topic_URLs (https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/05/19/2/pubsubhubbub)
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aaronpk oh hello
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tantek aaronpk - at some point you way want to consider forking the PubSubHubbub spec, since specs work best when their editor(s) are actively selfdogfooding what's in the spec.
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aaronpk i'm reaaaalllly trying to avoid that if possible
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Vendan realistically, it needs to be 2 specs. One spec for hub-sub, one spec for pub-hub
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Vendan I'm not really happy with the idea that my site wouldn't be PuSH 0.4 under https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/33#issuecomment-103560669
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tantek aaronpk: it is good to avoid forking a spec until you feel you must (i.e. disagreement with nonselfdogfooding editors), or when your contributions approach ~50% of the spec.
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aaronpk -1 to two specs!
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Loqi [mention] http://aaroncollegeman.sites.fatpandadev.com/the-story-of-sharepress-and-the-future-of-social-media/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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tantek one of the good reason to do so, if you're willing to rewrite all the content, is to license it more liberally - since according to Harry the existing editors / Google didn't want to contribute the spec to W3C or sign an IP agreement to allow its re-use.
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Vendan then are you going to say that my site isn't PuSH 0.4?
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Vendan my hub doesn't, and isn't likely to support publish via any form of http request
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aaronpk my contributions definitely are nowhere near 50% yet
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aaronpk Vendan: your website supports PuSH 0.4 in that subscribers can read the spec and subscribe to your site. but no you have not made a 0.4-compliant hub
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aaronpk superfeedr and switchboard and phubb are all meant to be generic hubs
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aaronpk tantek: wrt IP, is the spec primarily the written description of it, or is the spec the mechanism?
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aaronpk with food recipes, you can't copyright a list of ingredients, but you can copyright the written description of the recipe
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tantek aaronpk, with IANAL disclaimer, for copyright primarily the written description, for patent the mechanism
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aaronpk that makes sense
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tantek well, it's a consistent definition, I'm not sure I'd go so far as saying it makes sense :P
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk it bugs me because at the top of the 0.4 spec it says "To dramatically simplify this spec in several places where we had to choose between supporting A or B, we took it upon ourselves to say "only A", rather than making it an implementation decision."
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aaronpk and then they didn't do that in a bunch of places
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tantek e.g. Hixie was able to rewrite HTML in his own words, and put a liberal copyright license on it
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tantek aaronpk - that sounds like that "bunch of places" are all issues to be filed, where you say, per your spec methodology, I say choose A (or choose B - whichever *you* aaronpk think is the better answer)
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aaronpk that's what this thread is currently about
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tantek in face, just file pull requests that make the choice you think is best, and cite the design methodology
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tantek one thread?
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:tweetdeck-oauth-error.png]]""
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voxpelli tantek: says on http://www.openwebfoundation.org/faqs/users-of-owf-agreements that PubSubHubbub should be using that? Not W3C but at least something
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gRegorLove Morning, indieweb
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aaronparecki.com created /Tweetdeck (+258) "stub with dfn and screenshot" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Tweetdeck (+10) "stub" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Anyone know of an h-event to iCal parser/converter?
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tantek voxpelli: the spec should clearly cite the copyright and patent policies, preferably by linking to a generic license rather than making up their own
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tantek gRegorLove: https://github.com/microformats/h2vx.com does hCalendar - patches welcome for h-event to iCal - though this may be better suited for #microformats
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aaronpk hmm https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/33#issuecomment-103571726
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julien51 wowo, tantek, what I’m reading here baffles me! lots of lies! It also saddens me that you’d say things like “ since according to Harry the existing editors / Google didn't want to contribute the spec to W3C or sign an IP agreement to allow its re-use.”. Don’t you know how to reach me?
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julien51 I emailed “Harry” a dozen times, he *never* got back to me :D
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tantek julien51: sigh - very sorry to hear that - I trusted that Harry was thorough about this, and apparently I was mistaken. Apologies.
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julien51 well, think about going to the source whe you know the source…
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julien51 honestly, if you guys want to fork PubSubHubbub , go ahead
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julien51 I’m in no way interrested by the publisher side of things
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tantek julien51: I'd rather not fork if not needed
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Vendan https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/33#issuecomment-103575868
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tantek it's extra work, and has potential to cause more harm than good
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aaronpk julien51: i don't understand why you're not interested in that side, it seems like half of the picture
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julien51 tantek: since you’re one deciding “if needed”, then, I’m not sure my opinion matters anyway
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tantek Vendan are you PESETASING from Github to #indiewebcamp? lol
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tantek julien51: "needed" or not is of course up for discussion, hence I asked it as a question
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aaronpk julien51: it's quite likely that it'd be me forking the spec, not tantek ;)
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Vendan erm, kinda?
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julien51 aaronpk: of course, the “you” was not personal
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tantek julien51: yes what aaronpk said. I have no intent (nor time) to fork PuSH.
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aaronpk ah the ambiguity of english pronouns
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Vendan that'd be "youse guys"
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julien51 anyway, if you think or need or want or … to write a competing spec, go ahead…
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tantek Vendan - I prefer "you all", or "y'all" :)
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aaronpk my main concern is having a document someone can look at and actually go write code from
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julien51 also, sorry about my english
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aaronpk i'd rather not "compete"
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tantek julien51: cool good to know, I think we're in agreement with that kind of positioning. Helps keep specs moving and living.
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tantek julien51: at the top of http://pubsubhubbub.github.io/PubSubHubbub/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html I see Google authors Fitzpatrick, Slatkin
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julien51 tantek: yeah? they wrote previous versions of the spec
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tantek julien51: it's possible that Harry asked them first (since they're at the top), got a "No" answer, and then gave up because all editors would have to agree to contribute / openly license
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julien51 I did not think it was fair/right to remove them when adding to their work, rather than forking
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julien51 of course
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tantek julien51: depends. If you re-used their text and made a directly derivative work, I can understand.
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tantek hopes that wasn't a ragequit.
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tantek continuing: however, if 0.4 is a rewrite of 0.3 + new features you wrote, then it's more appropriate to list them in an informative Acknowledgments section as authors of the previous version
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julien51 ragequit : lol :) sorry I my english AND my internet connections aren’t as good as yours :)
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tantek julien51: :)
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tantek aaronpk - I'd suggest just keep filing specific pull requests for specific issues, and help move them along in parallel
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julien51 as for 0.4, there’s a lot of new things I wrote (you can see the diffs easily on the GH repo), but in any case *they* fostered the field and the spec, so no, I won’t take them out.
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tantek julien51: it's not clear from the header that you're the primary author/editor of 0.4
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tantek also if they're not actively editing / writing the spec, listing them as Previous Authors (or Editors) is more accurate
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julien51 that’s fine with me and Harry should use his own tools: https://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/
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julien51 because, well, it *says* I’m chair ...
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tantek didn't even know that CG existed
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julien51 tantek: well it’s linked on the spec under: “Appendix A. Specification Feedback”
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tantek julien51: to be fair - chair != editor, in fact in most W3C groups (whether CG/IG/WG), chairs are NOT editors
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julien51 I’m just saying if you (or Harry since you blame him) had spent 5 minutes trying to see who to get in touch with, you’d probably found me
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tantek notices that latest email archive for pubsub CG is > 2 months old and only has messages from cweiske: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pubsub/2015Mar/
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julien51 https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/blame/gh-pages/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.xml
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aaronpk whoa those emails
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tantek julien51: Harry was assigned the task of getting PuSH contributed to W3C - I don't make it habit to micromanage the folks in WGs that I chair
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tantek aaronpk: right? yet another abandoned email list.
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aaronpk those would all be great as github issues
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aaronpk i didn't realize he had done such a thorough reading of the spec
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tantek yup. email lists are dead for new spec work.
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julien51 they were *actually¨GH issues
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julien51 https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed
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aaronpk oh did he open them in both places?
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tantek julien51: http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/wiki/Main_Page links to http://superfeedr-misc.s3.amazonaws.com/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html - a more out of date version that the GH version linked above
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julien51 I think
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aaronpk email--
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Loqi email has -17 karma
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tantek email--
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Loqi email has -18 karma
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shiflett heh
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aaronpk grea tthat those are on github then... i'll just ignore the email list
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shiflett Poor email.
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julien51 with that, I need to go… sorry I’m also NOT on the same TZ!
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tantek shiflett: http://indiewebcamp.com/FAQ#Is_there_an_IndieWeb_mailing_list
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shiflett I agree with all that. :-)
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voxpelli regarding the PuSH-issue – seems to me like the current disagreement is mostly around where to add a standardized way rather than if there should be a standardized way? rather than just making a draft first and deciding where it belongs later on?
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aaronpk voxpelli: possibly yes
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voxpelli one thing I haven't understood either is whether 0.4 should be considered final or not
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voxpelli it's after all a versioned spec rather than a living standard?
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aaronpk so in that case, we might as well keep adding things to http://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push
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tantek aaronpk - yes - I think using /how-to-push as a de facto implementers guide is fine
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tantek AND I think it is worth filing the issues / pull requests on 0.4 to make it match your recommendations in /how-to-push
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aaronpk sounds like a reasonable path forward
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KartikPrabhu now I wonder if adding Push to IndieMark was a good idea cc: tantek
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voxpelli especially the "Notify the hub of new content" section
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tantek Let's act on the assumption that the PuSH editors are reasonably amenable to receiving such clarifying pull requests and will incorporate accordingly
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tantek KartikPrabhu: we already "voted" with all our implementations http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#IndieWeb_Examples - /IndieMark just reflects that momentum
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KartikPrabhu tantek: fair enough.
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voxpelli (all PuSH-contributors mentioned, Julien, Fitzpatrick, Slatkin has actually attended IndieWebCamps)
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tantek voxpelli: indeed! also a good sign.
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aaronpk okay so here's an example, currently superfeedr and google support publish requests like this: "hub.mode=publish&hub.url=X". That bugs me because "url" is ambiguous, and is in fact the topic URL which was named "hub.topic" in other parts of the spec. I would like to change it to "hub.topic" for the publish request
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aaronpk since that is not part of PuSH 0.4 I can do that on my hub and still have it be 0.4-compliant. Assuming making any recommendation of payload won't be accepted into the spec by julien, is my next best option to file a feature request on superfeedr to accept that parameter name?
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voxpelli probably, but is it really worth breaking compatibility with the 0.3 spec (which still is the most established PuSH-spec) just for a little more consistent naming?
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Vendan is it that hard to accept both, at least during transition?
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tantek aaronpk: can you specify handling of "hub.url" in some way that makes sense and is consistent with past treatment?
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tantek should be doable without breaking backcompat
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aaronpk a hub can definitely accept both
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voxpelli seems like the difference is due to a single URL was intended to be able to update many topics
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Vendan and just have the hub record the pubs that are sending the old "hub.url", so you can tell when everyone is using the new one
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aaronpk voxpelli: how do you mean?
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@CalEvans RT @SecuringPHP: Chris Shiflett (@shiflett) has posted about using IndieAuth for authentication using your own domain: http://t.co/ElWXNDXC… (twitter.com/_/status/600706686756777984)
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@manarth Oh, this is pretty cool: IndieAuth - https://twitter.com/securingphp/status/600623746710413312 (twitter.com/_/status/600707455065202688)
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voxpelli trying to skim the old docs to see why it was named like it was
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shiflett tantek: What phrases does the bot search for? (I want to pay attention to the same stuff.)
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julien51 aaronpk: the reason why the spec uses hub.url vs. hub.topic is legacy… but not only
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julien51 the distinction is that the publisher tells the hub that a resource (hub.url) was changed… when people could have susbcribed to a different one
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aaronpk OH...
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aaronpk like..how different?
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julien51 the most common use case would be: the publisher pings with a blog url when the subscriber has subscribed to a feed url related to that blog url
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aaronpk ahh
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julien51 but that also applies to HTML: you can ping saying “my blog changed”, when people may have only subscibed to sub-sections
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julien51 and the publisher does not have any knowledge of what people might have susbcribed to
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aaronpk my main use case that might be relevant to this is that when I post a note, it appears in many places, tag pages, etc
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julien51 of coruse, ar superfeedr we accept both hub.url and hub.topic
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julien51 aaronpk: exactly
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aaronpk i've been sending multiple pings since I know all the places a note appears when I post it
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aaronpk cweiske solved it by using wildcard URLs
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julien51 one of the key design principle of PuSH was to push complexity down to the hub, and the hub alone should ‘link’ hub.topic(s) with various hub.url(s)
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Vendan issue there is that the hub would then need to know how that one update relates to all the places that it may update
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julien51 I guess wildcard urls work too…
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julien51 vendan: agreed
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julien51 I think hub.url vs. hub.topic was a neat idea, but in practice it probably createsmore problems than it solves
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julien51 one of the most “frequent” ones was that feedburner URLs are case sensitives… and it pinged the hub with different url (just a case difference) than the ones used by susbcribers… and The Google hub was not great at dealing with this
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kylewm aaronpk: why did you say earlier that Vendan's push implemetnation is not PuSH 0.4 compatible?
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aaronpk kylewm: i said he doesn't have a push 0.4 hub
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julien51 … also, one of the reason why specifying the relationship between the hub and publisher is out of scope I believe.
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aaronpk but from a subscriber perspective his implementation is 0.4 compliant
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kylewm and since the spec only specifies the subscriber perspective, it's a complete implementation of the spec
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kylewm right?
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Vendan it's not under aaronpk's desired changes
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aaronpk oh yes, i was talking about my forward-thinking 0.4 spec ;)
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aaronpk because that's what the thread was about
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aaronpk but yes as it stands, it aligns with the current 0.4 document just fine
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kylewm ty for clarifying
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@pypi_updates went 0.0.10: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.0.10 (twitter.com/_/status/600712020560871424)
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@jennadeAngelis Getting my learn on with @qualtrics! #networking #knowyouraudience #ownyourdata #qualtricslive https://instagram.com/p/23zMLmsqWM/ (twitter.com/_/status/600714496731144192)
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@artwisanggeni #python went 0.0.10: Tools for implementing a webmention enpoint. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/went/0.0.10 (twitter.com/_/status/600716219709272065)
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aaronpk !tell cweiske would you consider updating phubb to accept "hub.topic" for the publish request? if so, then all 3 public hubs support it and I'll change the how-to-push page to recommend it
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske.de created /Template:cweiske (+144) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://avatar.cweiske.de/avatar/9e263681488308e5e5d5e548b2f9bc99}} [[User:Cweiske.de|Christian Weiske]]</span>"" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/the-story/custom-domains-for-publications-8cb161d9651
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aaronpk well that's more like it
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cweiske !tell aaronpk: phubb supports hub.topic now
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Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour ago: would you consider updating phubb to accept "hub.topic" for the publish request? if so, then all 3 public hubs support it and I'll change the how-to-push page to recommend it http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-19/line/1432056978895
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk cweiske++
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 9 seconds ago: phubb supports hub.topic now http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-19/line/1432060601283
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Loqi cweiske has 28 karma
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cweiske.de edited /How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub (+91) "/* Proposed: hub.topic */ add list of supporting hubs" (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk, is this list correct?
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aaronpk yes i believe so
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aaronpk and there are no other 0.4 public hubs right now, correct?
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kylewm pleasantly surprised by that news from Medium!
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cweiske google's is there, doesn't it do 0.4, too?
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aaronpk i think we determined google's only supports 0.3 because it doesn't work with anything except atom/rss
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cweiske k
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@LanceCoyote @tommorris I wrote up a post on my Twitter syndication if you were interested http://lancey.space/posts/23 #IndieWeb (http://lancey.space p24) (twitter.com/_/status/600734553552998400)
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@aaronpk The new custom domain feature means @Medium looks more like a great web host rather than a content silo! https://medium.com/the-story/custom-domains-for-publications-8cb161d9651 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/600734620460589058)
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tantek I don't know about "great", I'd expect a silo to be indieweb /friendly before calling it "great" :P
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk true, they would at least need a solid export functionality
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aaronpk to be able to move your content off medium if you wanted
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tantek even export is not good enough any more. that's so mid-2000s :P
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voxpelli the domain stuff seems to only be for the content and not for the persons as well
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aaronpk for the publications yeah
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tantek but at least it is a step forward
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aaronpk it's progress!
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tantek probably worth adding to /Medium
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voxpelli +1
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tantek maybe in a "Features" section like we have for /Twitter
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gregorlove.com edited /Medium (+150) "/* Features */ +custom domain in limited beta" (view diff)
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aaronpk aaaaand twitter and google are friends again https://blog.twitter.com/2015/a-new-way-to-discover-tweets
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KevinMarks_ The export is pretty good
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gRegorLove Medium's placement of the published date is weird.
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KevinMarks_ Marissa explains how she pumped up the app bubble http://fortune.com/2015/05/19/marissa-explains-it-all-yahoo-ceo-on-aol-katie-couric-and-what-sergey-brins-parting-advice/
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KevinMarks_ Medium had an initial goal of timeless articles
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gRegorLove Social share icons, followed by tags beneath that, followed by "Follow channel/author", then finally the published date in small light text.
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aaronparecki.com edited /How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub (-429) "recommending publishers use hub.topic since all PuSH 0.4 implementations support it. adding explicit section for wildcard and multiple URL methods" (view diff)
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tantek darn does this mean I have to do more work
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tantek as a publisher :P
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aaronpk not really
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tantek checks his code
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tantek as a publisher I *like* "hub.url" because it makes it simple
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aaronpk the point of hub.topic is that "topic" is what you put in your link tag
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tantek or rather - it focuses on the *simple* common case of - hey I updated my one thing
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tantek aaronpk: that makes no sense
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tantek which link tag? the rel=hub one?
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aaronpk oh sorry, topic is the thing that people subscribed to
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aaronpk rel=self
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aaronpk "hub.url" sounds like "the URL of the hub"
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tantek well that's just because namespaced POST params are dumb :P
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aaronpk not gonna argue with that lol
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Vendan agreed
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aaronpk i don't understand the reason the post params were namespaced in the first place. it's not like the hub URL is going to ever do anything else
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aaronpk if I do end up rewriting pubsubhubbub which I hope I don't have to, I'm not gonna use hub. prefixes
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tantek I like "url" for the param name because all you're saying is this is the URL that's been updated. Go have fun with it, hub.
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tantek I'm just a simple publisher, I don't have any notion of "topic", so don't force it upon me.
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tantek aaronpk: because namespace prefixing is like a virus
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tantek once you start doing it, it's hard to stop
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tantek I guess that's more like a bad addiction :P
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tantek aaronpk: easy: just add support for the unprefixed versions, and keep the prefixed only for backcompat
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aaronpk heh
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tantek just like the rel webmention transition
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aaronpk i meant rewriting the spec
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tantek no need to rewrite the spec
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tantek just keep patching it
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tantek heck, I'll change hub.mode/mode and hub.url/url like today if you implement it in your hub, and I'll switch to using switchboard
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aaronpk well that's quite the #throwdown ;)
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Vendan if we're going to do that, why not change all the stuff and allow both for sub as well?
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aaronpk that is a logical extension of that idea :P
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Vendan https://github.com/andyleap/gopub/commit/b31c8bbb57d3a36749809a25b8d3e97cafd6df91
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tantek indeed
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tantek seriously, namespacing and XML have cluttered up so many specs/protocols/formats
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tantek unnecessary garbage in 99% of the use-cases
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tantek and in the 1% experimentation/extension use-case, the CSS approach to vendor prefixing has worked ok in practice
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aaronpk okay make an argument for hub.url in the publish again. my main concern is that it is inconsistent with itself because subscribers use hub.topic
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tantek publishers > subscribers :P
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tantek Medium++ for the humor in their FAQ: "So, is Medium a platform or a publisher? Yes."
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Loqi Medium has 0 karma
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Vendan and voila, my push implementation on andyleap.net now prefers non-prefixed
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Vendan and I'll be back in a while
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tantek Vendan, as a publisher?
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Vendan as the wierd combined hub/pub thing that it is
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Vendan subscribers can use prefixed or non-prefixed
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Vendan the pub side never touches http
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@XicanoX IndieWeb http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=15111 (twitter.com/_/status/600743211988955136)
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tantek hmm I don't see any comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9566195
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aaronpk okay I just re-read the /how-to-push page attempting to read it with fresh eyes from a publisher's perspective
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aaronpk i agree that "topic" is an unrecognized term at that point
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kylewm tantek: there weren't any comments afaik
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tantek I thought I saw someone mention no haters, only confused people
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tantek aaronpk: even from a subscriber perspective "topic" is unnecessary
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tantek as a subscriber, I want to get updates from a URL
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tantek e.g. no feed reader uses any text like "Subscribe to this topic" for all subscriptions
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tantek Subscribe to this feed, subscribe to this website etc.
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tantek but no "topic" - that seems completely artificially forced
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gRegorLove What is namespacing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "namespacing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=namespacing&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-19%2Fline%2F1432063951304
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tantek what is a namespace?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "namespace" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=namespace&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-19%2Fline%2F1432064043757
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Vendan namespacing is when you separate groups of items based on common usage or creation, commonly used in programming and protocols, but can be over applied
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loqi.me created /namespacing (+178) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-19/line/1432063951304 and dfn added by Vendan" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks_ Namespacing is a technical solution to a theoretical problem, proposed by people who disagree for the sake of it. It's homographophobia.
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gRegorLove Heh
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KevinMarks_ Beat me to it.
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gRegorLove I'll move it to /namespace
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gregorlove.com moved /namespacing to /namespace
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gRegorLove I'll let others update /namespace accordingly. The <dfn> will need to be "namespace" to work with Loqi prompts
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aaronpk Vendan: did you also change the parameters your hub sends when verifying subscriptions?
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Vendan hrm, that's an interesting one, I have not yet
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Vendan it should match the params the subs sent, right?
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aaronpk presumably if you get a request that sends "mode=subscribe" instead of "hub.mode=subscribe" you should not use the namespaced params when verifying
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kylewm tantek: wrt topic instead of url, I think the idea is that you can subscribe to things that aren't urls, e.g. http://blog.superfeedr.com/tracking-feeds/
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andyleap.net edited /namespace (+129) (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: does anyone?
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Vendan how is that not a url though?
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kylewm I think definitely https://superfeedr.com/tracker
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kylewm Vendan: you mean the url is like track.superfeedr.com/?q=search+query?
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Vendan yeah
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kylewm yeah that's a good point, I hadn't gotten that far in reading :p
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Vendan I mean, with just a little bit of .htaccess magic or whatever, that'd be track.superfeedr.com/search/search%20query
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KevinMarks_ That is still a URL
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tantek a query string is still a URL
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tantek sheesh
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tantek goes to reference his diagram/table
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aaronpk oh no
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Vendan lol
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tantek "symbols"?!? that's horribly jargony and unreadable
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Vendan fine, "variables"?
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kylewm hadn't noticed the webmentions at the bottom of that superfeedr blog before, that's awesome!
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tantek that's not helping
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Vendan "items"?
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tantek how is superfeedr blog showing webmentions?!?
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kylewm webmention.herokuapp.com javascript
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tantek Vendan, anything "set of (generic term)" is nearly meaningless
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Vendan that's what a namespace is...
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kylewm arbitrary combinations of alphanumeric characters
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Vendan it's a named set of "things". in PuSH, we're refering to a set of parameters, in programming languages, it's a named set of classes, in xml, it's a named set of tags
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tantek lol
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tantek you can define nearly anything as arbitrary combinations of alphanumeric characters
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tantek.com edited /namespace (+487) "expand dfn, criticism, see also, note likely antipattern for standards" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /namespace (+16) "instead of" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /siloization (+17) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Vendan meh, seems arbitrary and imprecise to the programmer in me, but I can see how it's more informative to a layperson
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KartikPrabhu oh come on! are we now just verbizing nouns on the wiki?
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: tantek used it in the /namespace dfn
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gRegorLove Just following the trail
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KartikPrabhu sorry nounizing the verbized noun
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aaronpk okay well... switchboard now supports both "topic" and "url" for publishing and subscribing, and supports non-namespaced params everywhere
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tantek Vendan - we try pretty hard to make the definitions easily understandable for more people, rather than using jargon and abstractions
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tantek see also architecture astrononmy
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tantek even as a programmer, architecture astrononmy is bad and should be avoided
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tantek as should plumbing-centric definitions
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aaronpk full diffs: https://github.com/aaronpk/Switchboard/compare/1bede8a928949791cf2a765e2ee1d66d3f60d04b...483266d54ee51b5c2a21fb6a47acf3e1c90db055
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tantek.com edited /namespace (-11) "-siloization, it only caused confusion :P" (view diff)
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Vendan there, stuff's fixed on gopub too
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tantek.com created /silosgonnasilo (+18) "for gRegorLove" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: wait - is the prefix "hub_" or "hub." ?
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tantek I've been using "hub."
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aaronpk it's hub.
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tantek re: https://github.com/aaronpk/Switchboard/compare/1bede8a928949791cf2a765e2ee1d66d3f60d04b...483266d54ee51b5c2a21fb6a47acf3e1c90db055#diff-40db8eeceda0d662cbfa763ec39ad1f8R13
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aaronpk but PHP converts it to hub_ in $_POST
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aaronpk because old PHP made all post variables into local variables which was a terrible idea but that's what they did
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tantek wow I don't even
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aaronpk and local variables obviously can't have a . in them
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tantek good reason not to use "." based namespaces
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Vendan just gotta love good old PHP :D
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aaronpk yeah good point, definitely confused me when i first tried to handle a post request with "hub.mode" in it
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aaronparecki.com edited /How_to_publish_and_consume_PubSubHubbub (-9) "/* Notify the hub of new content */ use hub.url for publish, since "topic" is an unnecessary term and foreign to publishers during this process" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: okay switched that page back to hub.url
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tantek I still don't understand the use-case for "topic" for anyone in PuSH
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aaronpk i don't either, but i'm not willing to question that right now
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tantek looks just like people misunderstood that things with query strings are actually still URLs
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tantek that reminds me
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aaronpk might have to go back to the push 0.3 archive to see where that came from
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tantek http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces#ud
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kylewm tantek: my understanding of the timeline is like 1) they chose "topic" to be generic, imply that you could subscribe to anything, 2) much later superfeedr added support for search queries and chose to implement them URLs
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tantek URL is not universal enough, let's invent a new term "topic" to be *more* universal. Sigh. some combination of xkcd 927 and /architecture-astronomy
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kylewm so amusing semi-related aside: java.util.File has as method toURL() which is deprecated in favor of toURI(). so now you always have to call file.toURI().toURL()
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kylewm (because every actual consumer takes a URL and not a URI)
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tantek URI--
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Loqi URI has -2 karma
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tantek URL++
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Loqi URL has 3 karma
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tantek karma conservation :P
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tantek and aaronpk you were far too polite
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tantek ;)
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j12t_ Is anybody running their own Mozilla sync server? Is it worthwhile?
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j12t Or accounts server? https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html
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aaronpk j12t: i used to! whatever it was called before
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j12t why did you stop?
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aaronpk i started using chrome
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j12t now why would you do that! :-)
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j12t but was it useful?
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aaronpk i..dont' remember lol
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aaronpk yeah it was great
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aaronpk synced to all my devices
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aaronpk it was a little annoying to set up because it was a webdav server, but worked fine once i got it figured out
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j12t seems like a natural app for UBOS ...
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@kevinmarks I see @BenedictEvans http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/5/17/the-future-is-mobile-and-apps-except-that-it-isnt rebuts himself http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/5/14/apps-versus-the-web - Apps are browsers that only work on one site #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/600782076774780928)
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aaronpk yeah that'd be neat!
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aaronpk i wonder if it's time to switch back to firefox... chrome has been annoying me a lot lately
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fkooman it was never time to switch to chrome to begin with ;-)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk i do like the chrome dev tools
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kylewm fkooman++
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Loqi fkooman has 6 karma
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fkooman aaronpk, you could try chromium instead I guess, depending on what annoys you :)
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aaronpk wow the mozilla sync server is node?
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aaronpk definitely seems like a project to set that up
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aaronpk wow firefox feels so different from chrome, and way different from last time i used firefox
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shiflett aaronpk: FF still feels slow and crashy, but I've always preferred it.
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aaronpk slower than chrome?
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shiflett It feels slower to me, yes. Anecdotal evidence.
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shiflett Also, I really hate Chrome, so I'm not a good source of opinion there. :-)
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shiflett Because of an endless amount of this kinda thing: https://twitter.com/shiflett/status/351750526645436417
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@shiflett In other news, Chrome caches 302s in direct violation of the spec. Is anyone surprised? https://accounts.google.com/ServiceLogin?service=code&ltmpl=phosting&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Fchromium%2Fissues%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D103458 (twitter.com/_/status/351750526645436417)
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shiflett Vendan or aaronpk: Would either of you help me out with h-entry again? I think I have dt-published in the correct format, but this h-entry validator can't find it: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshiflett.org%2Fplanet
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kylewm shiflett: the problem is that your dt-published is inside the author h-card
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kylewm easier to see here http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshiflett.org%2Fplanet
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shiflett Aha, thanks.
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aaronpk shiflett: I prefer looking at the parsed JSON before looking at validator's results
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aaronpk makes it easier to spot stuff like that
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shiflett Makes sense. I now realize I'm not really paying attention to hierarchy, but should.
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shiflett Nice. I think I did it.
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shiflett http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshiflett.org%2Fplanet
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kylewm shiflett++
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Loqi shiflett has 5 karma
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@shiflett Thanks to the kind #indiewebcamp people, I successfully added h-entry to my planet: http://shiflett.org/planet (twitter.com/_/status/600802562300899329)
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aaronpk hey it's showing up in woodwind now!
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