#indiewebcamp 2015-05-22

2015-05-22 UTC
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gRegorLove Is the "open external" icon at the bottom supposed to open a Woodwind view of the single post? I though tit would open the original in a new tab.
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aaronpk KevinMarks: lol nice link to "Medium's brilliant engineers" ;)
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KartikPrabhu too bad Medium eats up the fragmention
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KevinMarks silo copy https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/the-web-is-the-network-d9e2ff2b18d5
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aaronpk can you make it a response to ev's post?
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aaronpk like this one https://medium.com/@DaveSchools/forgive-me-but-i-want-to-make-sure-i-m-not-missing-something-c45efcfd36a2
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kylewm gRegorLove: yeah clicking the little "pop-out" icon is supposed to open just that post in a new tab. it was intended for podcasts mainly
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gRegorLove Ah, that makes sense.
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kylewm wow, this sounds straight outta Loqi https://medium.com/why-not/our-slack-wiki-e4f6d23a3495
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk note the section "No Database" :D
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/b4bG3
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KevinMarks__ I did, I thought
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@aaronpk "The Web is the network" https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/the-web-is-the-network-d9e2ff2b18d5 a nice #indieweb followup to @ev's post "Medium is not a publishing tool" (twitter.com/_/status/601540381927297027)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++ just caught up to the "Oh boy, Ten years?" comment. B.S. indeed!
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 93 karma
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KartikPrabhu :P
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@justagwailo Recommended on Medium: "The Web is the network" in the #indieweb https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/the-web-is-the-network-d9e2ff2b18d5 (twitter.com/_/status/601544311759622144)
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gRegorLove That 10 years comment sounds like job security. :)
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Vendan meh, Creole is a better markup for wikis
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Vendan and I won't touch yaml with a 10 foot pole
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@JosephRooks @kevinmarks @ev the other key difference is that #IndieWeb isn't BSing people about "openness" to create phony feel-goodsies. (twitter.com/_/status/601546783630741504)
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kylewm Vendan: Creole is basically mediawiki syntax?
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kylewm because, ick
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kylewm but basically all the markups are fine and you should use whichever one you are used to
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Vendan it's not too far different from markdown. Big difference is that it supports wiki-links natively
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Vendan having to put a whole url into a link is kinda messed up for a wiki
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Vendan but that's not that big a deal. I just can't stand yaml.
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kylewm i too loathe YAML :)
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kylewm p3k makes great use of it though
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kylewm (aaronpk's site software)
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sparverius pretty much all markup (even xml) is fine as long as you dont use the advanced features... to me at least
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Vendan I can't stand it cause they forbid tabs
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Vendan spaces for indentation is just insane
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aaronpk i always indent with 2 spaces :)
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Vendan bleh, tabs exist for a reason
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Vendan one reason I like golang is that it has a hard style guide, and it says tabs
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Loqi [bridgy] Sue TheWriter replied 'Hmm,I read the first part and will l read on. (Puppies gotta go out, tho!) Looks veeeeerrry promising! Thanks! @dougmckown' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/SueTheWriter/status/601255199064231936)
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__number5__ Vendan: what? tabs!! can't believe it
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Vendan they make more sense then spaces...
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/601567835710586880
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@kartik_prabhu @craigmod Sounds more like a description of anything on the Web really. (twitter.com/_/status/601567835710586880)
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KartikPrabhu context: https://twitter.com/craigmod/status/601542938372345856
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@craigmod Medium is made of … Humans! Networked, and network affected humans and their words: https://medium.com/the-story/medium-is-not-a-publishing-tool-4c3c63fa41d2 (twitter.com/_/status/601542938372345856)
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KevinMarks Yaml started out as a decent idea, then it kept adding things
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KartikPrabhu sounds like most formats ;)
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KevinMarks Until it could be used to attack rubygems
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Vendan Kinda want to build my own version of yaml, that's just a simple version of json without all the extra punctuation
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aaronpk https://github.com/toml-lang/toml
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kylewm looking at TOML makes me like YAML better :P
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__number5__ me too
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kylewm __number5__: alternate mattl screen name?
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mattl Ha, no.
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kylewm haha worth a shot
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kylewm then welcome __number5__ !
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__number5__ nope, I'm new :)
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__number5__ thanks
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KartikPrabhu I personally like Hyper-Text Markup Language
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Vendan yeah, but html is terribly fragile
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Vendan toml has an advantage in that it looks really similar to ini
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mattl __number5__: I'm a big Short Circuit 2 fan
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__number5__ mattl: yep, that's where the nickname from
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__number5__ actually Short Circuit 1, since he changed to johnny 5 at 2 :P
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mattl I'm making a monkey movie right now as my tribute to SC2
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mattl Technically he changes to J5 in SC1 ;)
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__number5__ mattl: monkey movie?
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mattl orangumovie.com
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__number5__ looks fun :)
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tantek.com edited /next-iwc (-8) "2015 main" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next June 3" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+11) "next IWC is main, so far Portland and Brighton are on" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+14) "tweak city/state/country" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-22) "just cities" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next June 3" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+216) "add some more upcoming 2015 dates" (view diff)
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GWG I have returned
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tantek I have as well, but will be sleeping soon
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tantek GWG, I know two people at NYTimes apparently and will look into whether they can help with hosting things.
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tantek keep pursuing all alternatives, but I wanted to give you that heads up
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GWG tantek: I appreciate it.
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tantek GWG, want to add an "o" next to your name in the New York City list? looks like bear wants to help you co-organize it: http://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#Candidate_Cities
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david.shanske.com edited /2015 (+1) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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GWG I was down lower as an organizer.
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tantek GWG, but you're the most local - so feel free to put yourself at the top of the organizers for NYC
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GWG I meant, lower on the page under Organizers
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kylewm have y'all done this DH-params thing yet? https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html
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kylewm those of you who run https, that is
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@ThanRobertson RT @leolaporte: Posting this on MY site and syndicating it to Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Hoorah #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/601613443217555457)
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__number5__ kylewm: my sites is behind cloudflare ssl so it's ok
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tantek in the spirit of acknowledging good critical feedback: https://twitter.com/t/status/601614748312940544
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@t @matthillco thanks for kind words! @techytuppers good feedback. Changed IRC to webchat link. You’re right ... http://tantek.com/2015/141/t2/thanks-kind-words-good-feedback (twitter.com/_/status/601614748312940544)
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tantek kylewm: is that DH-params thing something that should be added to the steps to take in /HTTPS ?
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kylewm tantek: I have no clue unfortunately, keeping up seems futile
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tantek also I wonder how the efficacy / validity of the information at such one-off domains can be verified
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tantek lots of magic hex codes
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kylewm __number5__: that's great, what is your personal site's url?
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__number5__ kylewm: https://brucewang.net (and I'm going to update it with a Pelican version *soon*)
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__number5__ weakdh have a nice guide (and tester) for how to fix weak Diffie-Hellman issue https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html
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tantek __number5__: right, kylewm shared that link earlier.
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tantek the question is, how the efficacy / validity of the information at such one-off domains can be verified? who checks it? or is it taken on faith that all the magic hex codes in there are correct?
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KartikPrabhu working on photo post designs. Making my photo posts have custom photo layouts with uniform heights ;) https://kartikprabhu.com/article/dance-man
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craftycorvid Any indieauth experts online?
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cweiske depends what you mean with expert, but ask
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cweiske kylewm, woodwind does not seem to use my hub for my h-feed page: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-05-22%20woodwind%20hfeed%20subscription.png
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cweiske could you check why?
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cweiske it's probably because I'm missing the rel=self link header
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craftycorvid I think I found my answer... Looks like indieauth.com doesn't do paths, or follow redirects
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KevinMarks_ indieauth follows 301 redirects
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KevinMarks_ paths are a bit trickier
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craftycorvid Huh...is that to say 302s won't do?
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KevinMarks_ 302 means "this is temporary, don't rely on it"
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craftycorvid Makes sense
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craftycorvid 301 now issued, but no luck. What's the trick with paths?
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KevinMarks_ hm
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craftycorvid Helps to make the page public. X.x Appreciate the help...looks like I need sleep!
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KevinMarks_ ah, yes. not being on the web is tricky for indieauth
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@ianhsuth Writers! Learn how to attract over 400 new followers every day and sell more books! http://ianhsutherland.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/TwitterSignup-1-AdvancedTwitterSignup.html #TwitterAdvice #Indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/601683963300675584)
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benborges by looking at this https://github.com/Psycojoker/hackeragenda do you know if Known events could be aggregated into this agenda system ?
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benborges ICS agenda aggregator from multiple sources http://hackeragenda.be/
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benborges would be great to have the EVENT post type to generate a ICS output
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benborges http://hackeragenda.be/#faq
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petermolnar good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar article to read: http://www.refinery29.com/2015/05/87512/instagram-only-fashion-bloggers - as long as there is no way to POSSE to instagram, we're loosing ground :(
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petermolnar I wonder if we could do that with invisible android emulators running behind a service running actual the instagram app and some kind of glue app to post from anywhere else
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benborges isn't that already OwnYourGram site ?
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petermolnar nope
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petermolnar all solutions, inc. ownyourgram, is PESOS
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petermolnar the -public- instagram api doesn't let you post
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endi ownyourgram is reverse of what he's talking about, pulls from instagram
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benborges ow ok got it wrong
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endi which is what brid.gy does as well; pulls interactions back to the originating post
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endi hm guess ownyourgram didn't like me
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endi maybe it's because I'm at a subdomain
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petermolnar endi what engine are you using?
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endi I'm starting out w/ a self hosted Known site
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petermolnar there is a pretty robust plugin for WordPress called Keyring Social Importers
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petermolnar oh
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petermolnar I'm not that familiar w/ Known yet
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endi It's running on an RPi on my shelf :p
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endi It's been a fun project; I'm new so I'm learning a ton
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petermolnar are you running mongo on an rpi? :D
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endi mysql I believe
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endi been a bit since I got the db setup
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petermolnar I once managed to get Mysql (Percona) + PHP + nginx on my previous phone, but that really was too slow for WordPress :)
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benborges endi, funny i'm doing the same today, using labriqueinter.net hardware
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endi benborges nice :D
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benborges Yunohost stack & i will play with custom Yunohost apps to bundle a Known one
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benborges "self-hosted in a box" labriqueinter.net comes with email, jabber, vpn, etc...it's simply amazing
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endi Everything I did was simple since I was just starting; I'd setup Apache a few times but first time with a full LAMP stack, first time w/ a DB, first time configuring HTTPS
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endi Yeah it looks great
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petermolnar benborges a ages ago i started with virtualmin which was a pretty impressive bunch of perl scripts setting up everything for you for shared hosting
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petermolnar eventually you want more and more control and understanding and will slowly, gradually start building things from (near) scratch
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petermolnar ( not gentoo though; that's just too hardcore )
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endi As I set stuff up I am trying to learn more and get better connected
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petermolnar endi apache?! why not nginx? especially on rpi
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endi I haven't used IRC in ages but I thought I'd start to lurk around see what I can learn
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endi petermolnar: umm just familiarity I suppose? I've had 2-3 sites on Apache, I had done a few virtual servers on a machine etc so I felt it best to start with something familiar
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petermolnar please, pretty please, take a look at nginx + php-fpm; you'll never look back :)
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benborges well Younohost is soo well done and simple (most of automatization is bash scripting) iv seen a non techy geek friend, start from nothing to having part of his needs self hosted in one day
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endi nginx lighter on resources / better performance I would imagine?
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petermolnar massively
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benborges agree!
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endi friends I've had working with nginx have had such issues I figured it was better but more difficult to get running
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endi as some of these things tend to be
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petermolnar actually, it's pretty easy to get used to it
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benborges at first, coming from apache, it might look like, but it's just a matter of getting used to it
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endi Well I've been meaning to move this to an RPi 2, I'm sure it could benefit from the extra resources then maybe I'll repurpose the current Pi for learning nginx :)
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petermolnar endi some ideas here might help: https://petermolnar.eu/?s=nginx
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endi I've amassed more than a handful now I need to build them a server cabinet
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endi cool thank you :)
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endi awesome a curated nginx repo :D good first bookmark in nginx/
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cweiske petermolnar, why don't you link the bookmarks in the list page?
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cweiske I always have to go to the detail page to be able to click on the bookmark url
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@itsericwoodward This is why #IndieWeb > Medium. //The Web is the network http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/the-web-is-the-network (twitter.com/_/status/601710733211074560)
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petermolnar I'm not entirely sure; I'll take a look at the search page template, I guess the markdown formatting is not applied for some unknown reasons
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endi Good post. I personally really like Google+ but I hate that they've been so closed.
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@endi For me, it's Google+ I'd like to see open up. Good thoughts on #indieweb by @kevinmarks https://social.andrejstefanovski.com/s/5jV2w (twitter.com/_/status/601722129537757184)
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endi O_O do those always post here lol
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@BillSeitz RT @itsericwoodward: This is why #IndieWeb > Medium. //The Web is the network http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/the-web-is-the-network (twitter.com/_/status/601726163124293633)
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petermolnar Loqi is our own little twitter crawler, so whoever dares to mention indieweb, they'll probably get caught in Loqi's web
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endi ah nice :)
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@dkreuz No problem to run #Twisted on @uberspace. The first step for my #indieweb implementation is done. (twitter.com/_/status/601733977972592640)
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Vendan heh,
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Vendan personally, I like lighttpd, but it's about on par with nginix
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petermolnar I tried light, back in the days when it had some terrible memory leaks
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petermolnar I guess it's better now
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Vendan I'm not really doing any kind of load on my server, but I can pump 10000 requests through it without affecting memory usage, so probably
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Vendan biggest issue is just don't send large files over fcgi
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GWG Good morning
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hmans sup
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GWG I still haven't gotten to breakfast actually.
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@elfpavlik http://schema.org Search and App Linking http://blogs.bing.com/webmaster/2015/05/21/app-linking-and-app-actions/ , curious how http://microformats.org / http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions compare! (twitter.com/_/status/601764506394562562)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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acegiak so I keep having this issue where I want to reply to one of kylewm's replies to my post but I'm not sure what's the best way to do that
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 11 hours ago: I am thinking of moving the response back to the content block. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-20/line/1432179543413
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Loqi acegiak: kylewm left you a message on 5/21 at 9:16am: acegiak.net looks down to me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-21/line/1432224993188
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acegiak cause i want to do my reply as a reply post not as just as a comment on my system
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acegiak but then I want it to show up in the comments post in my original post...
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acegiak kylewm: yeah, there was a power outage on my server last night
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acegiak GWG: why?
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acegiak !tell GWG the post context is not part of the post content?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@LanceCoyote @Dotcom656 Use this page like a checklist http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark (twitter.com/_/status/601769426438868992)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: acegiak: in-reply-to both kyle's reply and your original post?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: that's what bridgy does
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acegiak snarfed, oh yeah that works!
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acegiak it doesn't exactly make it easy to piece together the comment tree at my end but I think that's a bridge for crossing later
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acegiak just displaying a list of all the comments as a thread works for now
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+547) "Updated to show some more info about my site" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: yup. nested comments... meh
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@agquarx IndieWebCamp: free your web content from corporate tyranny! https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/601778732404211712)
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aaronpk funny, I got a webmention from leo's Known site with a fragment in the url http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/1o3kKBo7
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@jevdemon Brilliant post explaining Indieweb and why Medium is one of many silos that wants your content. Nice job @kevinmarks! (twitter.com/_/status/601792508780089344)
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petermolnar !tell kevinmarks the internet lack the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs on it's own; how could those be replaced, those, present in silos?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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oddvar well the point is you could use an open, decentralised protocol to share this data
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oddvar rather than let it live in a single silo
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oddvar I work on matrix.org so am biased, but you could use anything that's similar
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petermolnar oddvar I've been asking this question for a long time now, and as far as I'm aware, there is no tool for this - yet.
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aaronpk explore => yahoo
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aaronpk discover => google
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aaronpk recommended => advertising
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benborges there should be a way to interconnect indieweb instances and then have a internal self hosted way to explore/discover/recommend content
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oddvar peter: but that's just functionality. the point here (in my humble opinion) is where the data belongs
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oddvar then anyone could build that functionality on top (like ben says)
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petermolnar oddvar there is no such thing as just functionality; functionality is everything for the end user
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petermolnar "then anyone could build that functionality on top", HOW? :)
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benborges data should belong where it's created: in our self hosted instances
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oddvar and medium.com could be that client with that functionality
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oddvar but the data is still open and free
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@Inkwater_Masha Thinking of crowd sourcing you book? 7 lessons learned http://www.authormedia.com/how-to-use-kickstarter-to-fund-your-next-book-project/ #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/601799834790690816)
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@TheWritingGeek Thinking of crowd sourcing you book? 7 lessons learned http://www.authormedia.com/how-to-use-kickstarter-to-fund-your-next-book-project/ #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/601799834715172865)
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GWG acegiak: Right now, it isn't. But looking at it, that is only really an issue for replies.
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Loqi GWG: acegiak left you a message 2 hours, 20 minutes ago: the post context is not part of the post content? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432307936954
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@rodmitch Testing http://t.co/Oz3yNM1Tlu. Very cool micro-blog deal (and much more) based on all this: http://www.kevinmarks.com/we-like-indieweb-software.html (twitter.com/_/status/601807276882563072)
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kylewm !tell cweiske you were right, it's because there is no link rel="self"
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ Gillmor Gang time
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Loqi KevinMarks_: petermolnar left you a message 2 hours, 55 minutes ago: the internet lack the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs on it's own; how could those be replaced, those, present in silos? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432313749064
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KevinMarks_ these are things that make sense in a reader
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KevinMarks_ hm: http://ask.willsomeone.com/showask?askid=ag5zfndpbGwtc29tZW9uZXIvCxIHQXNrbGlzdCISbWlrZWJvYXNAZ21haWwuY29tDAsSA0FzaxiAgICAgICACgw
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kylewm lol at your avatar KevinMarks_
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KevinMarks_ I should change that back, I was seeing if gifs came through the google resize
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Loqi I agree
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benborges KevinMarks_, about reader : http://1-m.cc/2015/throwing-ideas-in-the-wind-for-future-reference-indieweb-withknown
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KevinMarks_ you can do that with kyle's reader
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KevinMarks_ log into http://reader.kylewm.com with your known url, and you get repost buttons on each post
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kylewm benborges: syndicating a photo from Known to Twitter *does* include the photo
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benborges well then i have a problem with twitter on my known instance
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benborges neither twitter links "display" on my instance
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benborges neither pictures get uploaded to twitter
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benborges let me retest this out, this is too good
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benborges kylewm, well can't upload image in the first place : Image wasn't attached.
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kylewm yeah :/ I saw your GitHub issue
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benborges and when this photo upload crash, it also interrupt the POSSE to twitter while creating the post
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benborges so i can't really test but very happy that it's not a wish anymore :)
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kylewm benborges: if you have access to the error log that would be very helpful in debugging the issue
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benborges of course i can have access
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benborges kylewm, is there a place i should look or is this error on the system logs ?
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kylewm if it's apache, it'll likely be in /var/log/apache2/error.log or /var/log/apache2/other_vhosts_access.log
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benborges it's nginx, i know where to look then
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benborges kylewm, i think this will definitely help : http://pastebin.com/HxGi8VbB
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benborges seems to be a permission problem ?
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benborges but it's strange because previously i never had problem uploading pictures
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benborges previous posts have pictures
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benborges going to put this error log in the github issue thread
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kylewm hmm, maybe the path to your Uploads folder changed in config.ini?
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benborges hmm lemme have a look where it's poiting
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benborges put all the necessary info into here : https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/895#issuecomment-104762825
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benborges kylewm, it seems to me that Known can't write to one of the subfolders it uses to structure the uploads ?
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kylewm hmm yes, that seems to be the case
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benborges these folder names are created by known : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f
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benborges this is the sub folders i have, how can i make sure all these folders are owned by www-data and that it can write into it ?
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benborges ls -l tell me they are already owned by www-data
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benborges but they dont have the same permission from what i can see
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kylewm benborges: is the group also www-data?
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kylewm and what is the permission on the subfolders?
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benborges yes group is www-data
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benborges sub folders permission where wrong for some reason
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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tantek catches up on today's logs
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tantek !spammer ianhsuth
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Loqi Got it! There are now 41 spammers blacklisted
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benborges just gave chmod -R 666 to the Upload folder
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benborges perms are now like this : drw-rwSrw- 6 www-data www-data
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kylewm cool, hopefully that should fix it?
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benborges let's try
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tantek !tell kylewm,cweiske re: rel=self required by Woodwind - I recall a conversation with aaronpk where we concluded that if there is no rel=self, that implied rel=self to the page itself was a good way of handling that, to make the common case even easier for publishers.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk oh yeah I remember that... we never captured that on the wiki or anything
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benborges kylewm, Image wasn't attached.
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benborges same point
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tantek aaronpk - do you remember when we discussed it in IRC?
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aaronpk no idea!
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tantek and, upon latter reflection, do you still think it's a good idea?
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aaronpk march 18th
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tantek what is Keyring Social Importers?
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-18#t1426690710664
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Keyring Social Importers" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Keyring+Social+Importers&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328117122
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tantek what is Percona?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Percona" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Percona&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328128497
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tantek what is Yunohost?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Yunohost" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Yunohost&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328138492
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tantek what is gentoo?
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aaronpk i keep reading that as y u no host?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gentoo" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gentoo&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328153823
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tantek aaronpk: hah that's funny
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kylewm benborges: too bad, thank you for providing all the log info and stuff, hopefully Known people will be able to help on that github issue
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: re: rel=self required by Woodwind - I recall a conversation with aaronpk where we concluded that if there is no rel=self, that implied rel=self to the page itself was a good way of handling that, to make the common case even easier for publishers. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328006141
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aaronpk http://meme.loqi.me/4bHefpQR.jpg
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tantek what is Twisted?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Twisted" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Twisted&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328236794
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tantek what is lighttpd?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lighttpd" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=lighttpd&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432328250585
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tantek oh I thought I created that one a while ago
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aaronpk tantek: more about rel=self http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-20#t1426876441654
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KevinMarks_ Twisted is a networking library for python. see https://twistedmatrix.com
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loqi.me created /Twisted (+100) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328236794 and dfn added by KevinMarks_" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Vendan Lighttpd is a very light, event based web server. See http://www.lighttpd.net/
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loqi.me created /Lighttpd (+106) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328250585 and dfn added by Vendan" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek Vendan - is Lighttpd the same as lightspeed? http://www.litespeedtech.com/
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Vendan nope, lighttpd is free and open source
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tantek.com edited /lightspeed (+27) "fix name in text" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /LiteSpeed (+30) "expand dfn, see also here" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lightspeed (-171) "r" (view diff)
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Vendan lol, per core licenses
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Vendan that's hilarious
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tantek Vendan - "LiteSpeed Open Source Edition / OpenLiteSpeed is a high-performance, open source alternative to Apache that retains many Apache-compatible features." from http://www.litespeedtech.com/
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Vendan and yet, you don't get most of what they tout unless you pay
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Vendan like the whole "reads apache config files"
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Vendan or mod_security
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tantek.com edited /LiteSpeed (+99) "note commercial, OSS version" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OpenLiteSpeed (+156) "issues" (view diff)
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andyleap.net edited /OpenLiteSpeed (+33) "/* lack critical Apache features */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Apache (+46) "more see also" (view diff)
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kylewm oh wow, looking at old issues, https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/7 talks about abstractin Publisher -> Hub as a new document
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Vendan just please, never allow G-Wan on the wiki
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tantek who is G-Wan?
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Vendan not really a who, but a what
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kylewm don't do it.
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Vendan it's a "application server" that is absolutely insane
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tantek.com edited /Varnish (-74) "local link to webserver softwares" (view diff)
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tantek so I should't ask what is?
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Vendan "beats" everything else in horribly inaccurate benchmarks, and the main author is paranoid to the point of thinking other web server authors are out to get him
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benborges why litespeed if we have nginx-phpfpm ?
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tantek benborges: some apache compat
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tantek e.g. my webhost switched me from apache to litespeed (only a couple of things broke)
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tantek and I have htaccess files with mod_rewrite etc.
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tantek.com created /lighttpd (+22) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk just moved a site from apache to nginx and had to rewrite all the rewrite rules and move them out of the htaccess file into nginx config... was not fun
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kylewm I find the nginx equivalent of rewrites to be much more intuitive though, if you are starting from scratch
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kylewm but yeah, porting sucks
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Vendan I like lighttpd's better then apache's myself, seems like it has more power, and so much of it is just regexs
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Vendan but I end up doing almost everything just in golang, so it doesn't really make a difference
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tantek !tell petermolnar what are the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs that you're referring to? Is this on Medium? Could you make/upload a screenshot to /Medium if so?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek has caught up on logs
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tantek !tell petermolnar The general idea is, if you have silo-feature-envy: 1. take explanatory screenshots of the feature, 2. upload to the wiki, 3. document it in a /silo_name#Features section - that way we have something concrete (in time and URL space) to refer to to start mocking up indieweb versions.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Indie inline /reader request for /Known : "another wish would be to integrate the RSS Feed reader with Known, so i could switch from getting the news, to disseminating them from the same instance." http://1-m.cc/2015/throwing-ideas-in-the-wind-for-future-reference-indieweb-withknown
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kylewm so about rel=self, a site that publishes with PuSH MUST include rel=self links, but if they don't, Woodwind as a subscriber could still fall back to just whatever the current URL is right?
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gRegorLove I'm actually a bit impressed with GoDaddy control panel improvements. It looks more modern and isn't as confusing.
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gRegorLove I still wouldn't recommend them.
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gRegorLove What is GoDaddy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "GoDaddy" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=GoDaddy&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432330263670
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gRegorLove GoDaddy is http://godaddy.com
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loqi.me created /GoDaddy (+56) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432330263670 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek kylewm: I understand the current MUST include rel=self link requirement, I'm suggesting relaxing that to a SHOULD to make the common "same page" case even less work for publishers.
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tantek 50% less markup work :P
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kylewm tantek: I re-read the irc logs that aaronpk linked to and was convinced (again) that MUST for rel=self is a good idea
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aaronpk kylewm: i think the hub has to agree on the missing rel=self too
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tantek why kylewm? can you provide a counter-argument to my point simpler for publishers? (which is one of the stated design goals for PuSH)
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aaronpk regardless of the outcome, it sounds like it would bea good idea to document this as an FAQ
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kylewm tantek: yes, "<julien51> the reason for specifying the self is because we will only get pings for a specific url from the publishers" ... even if the same resource is served at http, https, /, and /index.html, only one of those URls actually works as the push topic
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kylewm it's a good sanity check that makes sure the hub and subscriber are talking about the exact same URL
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kylewm and not that much more work, since you already have to add a Link header or <link> element, adding another one isn't 100% more work :P
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tantek kylewm: I didn't find that anywhere in the logs that aaronpk linked
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tantek kylewm: no that argument doesn't hold water - OpenID thought the same thing (what's the big deal about requiring two <link> tags? and people got it wrong. it was fragile and dumb)
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tantek or rather, expereince has shown that requiring another Link header causes fragility and brokenness
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tantek and an unnecessary barrier
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aaronpk oh man i didn't even think about the parallels to openid
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tantek and frankly it's just bad design to require two things of the publisher when one will do
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kylewm this discussion is in the first screen of the logs aaron linked to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-20#t1426876441654
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tantek this is how complex RDF crap gets invented
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tantek "what's one more @profile @context … etc. attribute they can just copy/paste?"
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tantek really bad / dumb reasoning
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tantek however, this "even if the same resource is served at http, https, /, and /index.html, only one of those URls actually works as the push topic" - is an already solved problem
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tantek search engines have the same problem
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tantek and previously solved it with rel=canonical
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tantek thus if that really *is* a problem for PuSH as well, the PuSH should build upon the pre-existing rel=canonical for the page, rather than *require* rel=self
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aaronpk well that's a thought
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tantek yes, re-use existing (especially deployed!) just-as-simple building blocks instead of making up your own
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aaronpk i wonder if that was ever brought up in the development of pubsubhubbub
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tantek the bar for making up your own has to be reasonably high, that is, provides some obv benefit like less work for the publisher (fewer tags/classes/attributes), or more reliable (e.g. visible data instead of invisible metadata), more open (based on an open standard instead of a proprietary snowflake)
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kylewm ahh, looks like rel=self comes from Atom
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KevinMarks_ yes, that is an atom thing
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KevinMarks_ so you know where the feed came from
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tantek yeah, Atom, being XML, has the classic XML maldesign of requiring too much crap and artificial precision from the publisehr
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KevinMarks_ it's a SHOULD in the Atom spec
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tantek KevinMarks++ well there you have it.
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Loqi KevinMarks has 112 karma
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@vrypan @anildash @ev TrackBacks (and now Webmentions) are signs that a service wants to be a good citizen of the web. Where does @Medium stand? (twitter.com/_/status/601866847093395457)
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aaronpk i somehow missed that @ev explicitly mentioned trackbacks in that post
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kylewm so but for back-compat with PuSH 0.3 and XML feeds, does that mean it has to be rel=self?
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aaronpk push 0.3 only works with xml feeds, so yes?
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KevinMarks_ I quoted it…
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tantek the point is, make rel=self a SHOULD (not a MUST), then in its absence, consuming code MUST fallback to rel=canonical, and absent that, MUST fallback to the URL itself that they retrieved to discover the hub in the first place
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/ow/status/601752444759072769
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@ow @anildash @ev trackbacks always had awesome potential but such a horrible implementation.Highlights + responses make me so jealous using WP. (twitter.com/_/status/601752444759072769)
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tantek what is a highlight?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "highlight" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=highlight&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432331398463
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tantek what are highlights?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "highlights" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=highlights&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-22%2Fline%2F1432331405828
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tantek KevinMarks - have at it ^^^
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tantek (since you know what existing technology is going to be suggested for that ;) )
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aaronpk tantek: maybe file an issue on the 0.4 spec to suggest that?
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tantek aaronpk - happy to do so - figured I'd see if there was at least a consensus here
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aaronpk i think that makes sense. rel=self -> rel=canonical -> URL
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tantek that is, if I can't reasonably convince you and kylewm then it's probably not worth trying to push for a spec change
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: fragmentioned bookmarks can be highlights
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tantek and on that note, I'm changing locations.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I expect to see you mockup a UI for highlights of your posts that accept marginalia comments :)
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KartikPrabhu oh noes! :P
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tantek perhaps in addition to being able to /like, /repost, and /quote a fragment/paragraph
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tantek ;)
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tantek (we did chat about that before right, like months ago?)
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KartikPrabhu yes. And I haven;t thought of a good way to do likes on paragraphs
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aaronpk to show them?
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tantek what do you mean by do? the presentation?
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KartikPrabhu tantek yeah presentation. I haven't found one that I'd like
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aaronpk how about the kindle presentation?
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KartikPrabhu and highlights are trickier because they are phrase-level by necessity which fragmention.js does not yet handle
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aaronpk it's not necessarily "likes" but i think basically the same mechanism
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: ooo I haven't seen Kindle at all any screenshots?
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tantek if so, one line facepile (of mini-faces, like 1em tall, sparkline style) by default with a "…" ellipsis link that wen clicked expands and shows the rest of the facepile, just like a marginalia comment would
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tantek s/wen/when
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Loqi tantek meant to say: if so, one line facepile (of mini-faces, like 1em tall, sparkline style) by default with a "…" ellipsis link that when clicked expands and shows the rest of the facepile, just like a marginalia comment would
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KevinMarks_ fragmention.js would need to inject markup into the page for the highlight
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ : yes
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aaronpk ah yeah showing facepiles on paragraphs is different story
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KartikPrabhu actually marginalia.js should do that since it moves around markup anyway
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KartikPrabhu tantek yes your presentation idea is the one I have settled on so far
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tantek KartikPrabhu: like this: ❤ 👩👦👱👧👵…
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KartikPrabhu haha
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KartikPrabhu hey everybody want to sent me fragmentioned likes so I can mockup fragmentioned likes :D
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KartikPrabhu s/sent/send
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: hey everybody want to send me fragmentioned likes so I can mockup fragmentioned likes :D
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KevinMarks_ any particular page?
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KartikPrabhu how about: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia
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tantek KevinMarks: the usual :) what is marginalia?
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Loqi Marginalia are interactions or responses to arbitrary parts of a post, in contrast to a traditional comment which refers to the entire post https://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia
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KevinMarks_ Ev: "you can incorporate anything from outside as well as anything else can incorporate anything from outside. i.e., links (and embeds). open to more suggestions on how"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: and for reposts: ♺ 👨👸👲👴👳…
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KartikPrabhu I don't understand that sentence ^^
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KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/the-story/medium-is-not-a-publishing-tool-4c3c63fa41d2#b387-4ecc289e3d0d
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KevinMarks_ it's a reply to Dylan asking for medium to be less of a silo
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tantek KartikPrabhu: scratch that - a repost of a paragraph is an unnecessary new concept - that's called a /quote normally
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah :)
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tantek so a facepile for quotes of a paragraph could look like: “” 👨👸👲👴👳…
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KartikPrabhu ooo I should make my marginalia link able
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tantek for everyone who's quoted a paragraph
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20150522-220410.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aar*@*recki.com>"
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: ^^
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KevinMarks_ at what point is quoting a paragraph not a highlight?
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tantek aaronpk, KevinMarks any photos from HWC PDX, SF this week? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-05-20-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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KevinMarks_ (I do a lot of tweets that are in effect pull quotes)
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KevinMarks_ SF was only 3 of us and we didn't do a photo. oops
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aaronpk pdx was 2 and no photo
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tantek KevinMarks: that didn't stop us in NYC :P
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tantek always take a photo! it's ok if there's only 2-3 of you.
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KevinMarks_ true
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KevinMarks_ I actually got someone to come using willsomeone, that was funny
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I am confused about how to create a good fragment for the comments. I don't want to use random letters and numbers like Medium
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KartikPrabhu maybe use some encoded form of the url....?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the ❤ and “” "labels" in the above mockups can also be clickable 'webaction buttons to like / quote that paragraph as well!
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KevinMarks_ would a fragmention of the comment work?
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KevinMarks_ ie would that cause it to expand?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ : not at the moment. that should also happen :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: use "cISODateTimeInSeconds" until you receive two comments in the same second.
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KartikPrabhu I have to rethink this marginalia.js so that I don't break linking
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tantek as the id/fragement
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tantek c for comment
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmmm
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KevinMarks_ I noticed it doesn't expand <details> either
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tantek where ISODateTimeInSeconds just comes from the time received of the webmention that you've stored
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ yeas because fragmention does not set any sort of focus on the element
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tantek so you're not having to makeup yet-another-random-id-in-a-databse
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KevinMarks_ I like your link creator there
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KevinMarks_ could it add a micropub post link?
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KevinMarks_ ah, ti worked finally
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KevinMarks_ I think known was glitching
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KevinMarks_ there you are, a quote post: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/in-the-case-of-digital-content-the-artifact-once-created
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KevinMarks_ hm, also double-posted to twitter
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KevinMarks_ I'm trying a thing here - what if a fragmention got changed into a blockquote by auto_link?
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tantek KevinMarks: client or serverside? ;)
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KevinMarks_ serverside makes more sense
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tantek are you saying turn the *text* in a fragmention into a blockquote? algorithmically - no actual retrieval of the URL?
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KevinMarks_ yes
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tantek interesting
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tantek not all fragmentions are quotes
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tantek e.g. all the comment in-reply-to fragmentions already out there
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tantek they are not quotes
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KevinMarks_ true
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tantek or were you thinking they *could* be inline quotes inside a reply-context of the in-reply-to?
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KevinMarks_ I'm thinking how could we do something like twitter's inlining of a tweet without having to fetch it
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters did suggest using fragmentions on the server-side for reply-contextx
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tantek KartikPrabhu: reply-context is for users, not servers
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tantek perhaps he meant for in-reply-to ?
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KartikPrabhu no. i mean, if I put a fragmention in an "in-reply-to" or "like-of" my site will go retrieve that part of the original post to display in reply-context
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KartikPrabhu basically answering a "yes' to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22#t1432336538867 :)
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KevinMarks_ right, that is in effect what I mena
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ : if I do someday allow logging in to my site, I could add micropub posting to the fragmention-UI stuff
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KevinMarks_ if I have <a><blockquote> how do I get rid of the text decoration in css? if I target the blockquote it still has it from the a
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ben_thatmustbeme Even if you do a> blockquote
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ben_thatmustbeme ?
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gRegorLove a+blockquote { text-decoration: none; } I think?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ sounds like CSS specificity is getting you. both suggestions by ben_thatmustbeme and gRegorLove should work
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KevinMarks_ I can override color but not text-decoration
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KartikPrabhu URL?
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KevinMarks_ let me push it
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KevinMarks_ http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ did known not send a webmention from http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/in-the-case-of-digital-content-the-artifact-once-created ?
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KevinMarks_ maybe not, it was being a bit temperamental
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KevinMarks_ so, that inlined quote
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KartikPrabhu the trouble seems to be that in your CSS a does not have a text-decoration, the browser is default styling it
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KevinMarks_ right, I want to override it just for that
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KevinMarks_ maybe I need a style on the a
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KartikPrabhu yeah if you do put a text-decoration: underline on the a and then override it, it works
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KartikPrabhu that is weird behaviour from Firefox
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KevinMarks_ it's consistent in chrome and safari too
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KartikPrabhu yeah and Chrome
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KartikPrabhu I thought page CSS always overrides browser defaults
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KartikPrabhu strange, even !important does not over ride it!!
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KevinMarks_ blames tantek ;)
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KevinMarks_ as he was at CSS WG this week
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KartikPrabhu :P
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tantek oops
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tantek multiple problems
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tantek can't depend on <blockquote> inside <a> because of legacy HTML embedding nonsense (same as div inside p problem)