#indiewebcamp 2015-05-24

2015-05-24 UTC
aaronpk_ and KevinMarks joined the channel
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It doesn't surprise me at all.
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aaronpk just switched the IRC logs to use the new nginx push-stream thing instead of a node.js app!
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KartikPrabhu GWG: why?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It's an Israeli company. Them being off during a Jewish holiday doesn't surprise me.
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KartikPrabhu oh! I see
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aaronpk it does seem a little silly to disable the whole thing. i mean i totally get not having staff working, but all the self-service tools should still be accessible
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GWG aaronpk: Well, I think they do the verification with humans, don't they?
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KartikPrabhu yeah. so now my site is down because my Cert somehow can expire on a weekend!
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GWG It may be they don't want to give people the impression they are available.
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aaronpk some of the verification is done by humans but i've also had them generated automatically sometimes
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KartikPrabhu ok so advice. If mt cert expires I can just get another one from somewhere else right?
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aaronpk yeah, you can replace it before it expires too
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KartikPrabhu oh ok
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KartikPrabhu now loking at https://sslmate.com/
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KartikPrabhu they have a neat script that does the cert downloading and openssl stuff for you on the server
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@kevinmarks @xor come hang in #indiewebcamp on freenode (twitter.com/_/status/602269748726861824)
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xor-parker lol hi KevinMarks
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Vendan hey xor, welcome to #indiewebcamp
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xor-parker hi Vendan, kevin invited me on twitter and I thought I'd hang out if that's alright
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Vendan yep: http://twtr.io/zkkWtovUH4
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Vendan lol
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Vendan our friendly bot watches for indie stuff on twitter
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Vendan so, you working with python?
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xor-parker well, the truth is i'm trying but i'm a super beginner and i actually don't want to waste a bunch of people's time
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Vendan can't say I know much python, I'm more of a Go and php guy
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Vendan hey, trying and failing is more impressive then not trying
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xor-parker i guess, what I feel comfortable asking people is if they've got resources they like pointing super beginners to
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Vendan and knowing to ask questions more so then that
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xor-parker the goal is to write a little bot that uploads files to wikimedia (using the existing framework) and labels them with metadata from a big csv I have
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xor-parker which seems like a doable project! but i need some very beginner background stuff on, like, how to import and use the scripts from the framework, etc
KevinMarks, dangillmor, mlncn, KartikPrabhu, rbrt, sivoais_, a__, slvrbckt_, martinBrown, sivoais, KevinMarks__, aaronpk_, wolftune and tantek joined the channel
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aaronpk oy
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aaronpk server maintenance is hard
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tantek indeed, and presents a barrier for anyone to be on the indieweb
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KevinMarks_ xor-parker: you still trying?
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petermolnar good morning
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petermolnar anyone with massive facebook knowledge around?
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petermolnar I'm getting ""Unsupported get request" response when trying to get my own posts with oauth2 authenticated user...
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KevinMarks_ bridgy has been through this recently
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petermolnar I'll start digging then
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/350
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/403
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petermolnar this is ridiculous o.O I mean the fb changes
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petermolnar and for god's sake, if I'd started deleting my content a few months ago I'd not have this issue
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KevinMarks_ they're trying to address their users' fear of connecting to facebook. I doubt it will work.
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petermolnar link them this: http://saintsal.com/facebook/
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petermolnar although I had fiery arguments yesterday because most of them is too lazy to even click on a ** link
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petermolnar ( sorry, I'm not in the perfect zen mood at the moment )
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petermolnar thank you KevinMarks_, thank you, bridgy, issue solved
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petermolnar facebook--
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Loqi facebook has -9 karma
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petermolnar bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 13 karma
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petermolnar KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 113 karma
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KevinMarks_ kylewm++ and snarfed++ have been battling this for a while
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Loqi slow down!
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petermolnar keep up, Loqi :P
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@davidpeach1 Attempting to improve the webmention parsing of my website. Trickier than first thought. (twitter.com/_/status/602414501863006208)
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@spundge Track your web mentions with Spundge Notebooks. Follow @BrunelMuseum's Notebook. https://www.spundge.com/notebook/44953/ #WebMentions https://twitter.com/spundge/status/602459053684445185/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/602459053684445185)
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GWG Good morning
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ben_thatmustbeme good day
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Thank you
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: with wordpress + micropub, how do you determine post type?
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: What do you mean? You mean if it is a note, article, etc?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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GWG Well, I set my type using the Post Kinds plugin. But not everyone uses it.
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GWG Also, having the Micropub plugin set the kind is on my list...it doesn't right now
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GWG Why?
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GWG snarfed, who wrote the Micropub plugin, uses a different method.
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ben_thatmustbeme going to be updating mobilepub and wanted to get a good idea of what is used in wp and known
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GWG Oh
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GWG Micropub for WordPress doesn't support syndication of any kind.
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ben_thatmustbeme so query the endpoint for it returns what?
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ben_thatmustbeme empty list or http error
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GWG I don't think it supports asking at all
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GWG I'm looking at the code now
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GWG I filed an issue about it in February. That it should return an empty list.
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benborges aaronpk, tantek_ about this http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-23/line/1432436269193 - Yunohost.org a great attempt to make server maintenance easy for anyone !
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Vendan only real issue with hosting at home is upstream bandwidth
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@tedcurran How Facebook is Killing the Open Web - http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/social-networks-apps-killing-open-web/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/602488153782427648)
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@pierreozoux RT @dkreuz: Level 1 of #Indieweb achieved. I encourage my students to follow. http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/602518730610974720)
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@IndieHosters RT @dkreuz: Level 1 of #Indieweb achieved. I encourage my students to follow. http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/602518730556481537)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Development (-345) "/* Brainstorming */" (view diff)
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@ajspadial RT @dkreuz: Level 1 of #Indieweb achieved. I encourage my students to follow. http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/602524242400403456)
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@nsteinmetz RT @dkreuz: Level 1 of #Indieweb achieved. I encourage my students to follow. http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/602533482917662720)
tilgovi, j12t, torrorist, benborges, KevinMarks_, KevinMarks__, LCyrin and indie-visitor joined the channel
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
nloadholtes, eschnou, benborges, tantek, j12t, dariusdunlap, KevinMarks_, dariusdunlap_, tmro, KevinMarks___, emmak, KevinMarks__ and Pierre-O joined the channel
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tantek quiet day - hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
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KevinMarks__ http://www.nickgrossman.is/2015/05/22/venture-capital-vs-community-capital/
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tantek KevinMarks: funny that that article has implicit open "monoculture" assumptions in the examples given
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tantek also - all the faith in blockchain stuff is humorous if sad. reminds me of faith in singularity crowd.
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tantek here's a key red flag for such pieces, anytime someone says something like "It’s early early days, but it does feel like this has the potential to become the next “open layer” " - they're likely wrong.
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tantek things have the potential to become the next open layer when they're easy to build on, not because people have "feels" or "faith" about them
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Pierre-O I responded to him: https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/response-to-venture-capital-vs-community-capital I don't know if what I'm saying is stupid, but I feel he is partly lying...
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tantek nice response Pierre-O
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tantek and much more succinct and clear than the original article
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Pierre-O Thanks :)
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Loqi [mention] Amy posted 'Micropubbing with json If micropub used JSON instead of (/as well as) form encoding, what might submissions look like? Aaaron Parecki brai...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/invite (http://blog.rhiaro.co.uk/micropubbing-with)
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rhiaro damnit, why does every post I like need a link to the wiki?
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tantek rhiaro: lol - why the d*it?
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rhiaro my phone vibrates when I get irc notifications and it keeps making me jump :p
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tantek noted :)
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rhiaro I should move it off the loud surface
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek rhiaro: how you know something has too much abstraction, a format for a single object that starts with: { "object": {
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rhiaro yeah, I thought that
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Vendan seems kinda like the namespacing thing we just went through with PuSH
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tantek rhiaro: it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad how much excess abstraction and bikeshedding hangwringing goes on by JSON(LD) advocates
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tantek actor vs author being another one
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rhiaro with the outer object I just copied aaron's example, but maybe we could drop it completely and just submit the properties
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tantek which is kinda what micropub already does with form encoding
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tantek the as2 excess "object": { } layer in your "An AS2.0 Activity" example is also hilarious if not sad.
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tantek the RSVP comparison is the funniest
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rhiaro yeahhh
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tantek classic overdesign by those that have failed to implement it on their own sites, vs. minimalist design by those who have actually implemented, shipped, and are actively using it
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tantek me thinks the builders will set the standards as we go
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tantek not the email-listers
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tantek just a matter of if the builders allow themselves to be distracted and their designs diluted / compromised by the listers.
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tantek so that being said - you mentioned in your post wanting something for consumption of food etc.
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tantek perhaps you could consider linking "something I log on my site" to a (page of HTML) stream of the things you consume?
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@rhiaro I posted: Micropubbing with json #indieweb #activitystreams @SocialWebWG http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/micropubbing-with (twitter.com/_/status/602591522383646720)
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rhiaro puts phone on silent
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tantek lol
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rhiaro tantek: good point re link to food posts
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rhiaro (and everything else you just said)
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tantek what is food?
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Loqi Food is a post type that represents eating or drinking particular food or drink https://indiewebcamp.com/food
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KartikPrabhu food isn't a post type!!! ;)
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tantek rhiaro: add yourself (and your first post) to https://indiewebcamp.com/food#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek KartikPrabhu: on the indieweb it is! ;)
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tantek rhiaro: your first *food post that is
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KartikPrabhu should fix his website speaking of indieweb
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tantek rhiaro: I'm increasingly leaning toward considering plain text only design a pre-requisite for any kind of markup of any specific type of post
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tantek and the only way to get plain text only design "right" is to start posting plain text only equivalents of any kind of new post type even just as /notes to your own website
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tantek which thus requires posting /notes to your own website
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tantek which is something that we keep encouraging everyone to get working first (as far as post types go)
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tantek so when people like elf ask "how do you markup a checkin or checkout"? … the end result is … when are you (elf) going to start posting notes on your own site (instead of just sharecropping your notes on Twitter) ?
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tantek this is the right pushback, the right https://indiewebcamp.com/proof_of_work confrontation
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Loqi [mention] Amy posted 'Micropubbing with json If micropub used JSON instead of (/as well as) form encoding, what might submissions look like? Aaaron Parecki brai...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/invite (http://blog.rhiaro.co.uk/micropubbing-with)
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rhiaro oops that update seems to have broken my post
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rhiaro grumbles
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tantek applauds rhiaro's living on the edge with her own site and posts.
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tantek rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 96 karma
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rhiaro fixed it
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petermolnar tantek plain-text only -> setext?
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rhiaro When I post without an explicit published date, my micropub endpoint fills it in, but I have a bug where it drops it when I do an update, and then it doesn't render
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rhiaro and I keep forgetting
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rhiaro and also not fixing it
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tantek what is setext?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "setext" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=setext&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-24%2Fline%2F1432505543992
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petermolnar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setext
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tantek rhiaro: updates must not touch the published date, but instead touch the updated date.
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tantek petermolnar: then no
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tantek plain text only design involves NO markup
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tantek hence *plain* text
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petermolnar there is no such thing
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tantek it is the default
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petermolnar even putting paragraphs in will make it a markup
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rhiaro tantek: I know what updates *should* do, it's a bug :p you know *how* I update my posts, right?
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tantek is not going to ask
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rhiaro :D
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rhiaro for the best.
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rhiaro Gross misuse of Quill which upsets aaronpk.
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tantek petermolnar: sounds reductio absurdum
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tantek space != punctuation != markup :P
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tantek they're all different, insisting they're the same is diluting their definitions for no good reason
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petermolnar so where does markup start?
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tantek depends on the type of markup
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petermolnar say, if on paper, I'd underline my heading; an in digital I'd put ----- in between the heading and the text
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petermolnar is that a markup?
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tantek no - that sounds presentational, and undeline
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tantek s/undeline/underline
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Loqi tantek meant to say: no - that sounds presentational, and underline
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rhiaro it's markdown :p
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tantek lol
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petermolnar setext is practially this
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loqi.me created /setext (+52) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-24/line/1432505543992 and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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petermolnar kind of best practices
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tantek lolol
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tantek setext looks like a pre-cursor to markdown
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petermolnar setext as far as I'm aware, unlike markdown, was never intended to be a to-be-translated-to-html
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tantek.com edited /setext (+88) "update with a definition, WP link, see also" (view diff)
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petermolnar it was used for many early-internet releases, like http://www.textfiles.com/magazines/LOD/
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tantek anyway - still not "plain text design"
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tantek closest analogy / simple instance/use-case of plain text design is SMS output
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tantek (and frankly, input as well)
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tantek has nothing to do with markup, whether HTML, or minimal like setext or markdown
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petermolnar to be honest, I believe that eventually when you do enough writing, you end up with some kind of markup, even if it's your own
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tantek no, that's just punctuation.
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tantek rhiaro: before I forget, reminder, add your first food/consuming post to https://indiewebcamp.com/food#IndieWeb_Examples - so that we can start to understand more real world publishing examples, which will help drive figuring out microformats markup for them
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rhiaro okie dokie
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rhiaro I was tracking food on the local version of my site for a couple of months before it was live
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tantek date when first post was live with a public URL would be good
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petermolnar good night ( just realized it's 23:30 here )
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Loqi buenas noches
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@kevinmarks RT @rhiaro: I posted: Micropubbing with json #indieweb #activitystreams @SocialWebWG http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/05/micropubbing-with (twitter.com/_/status/602605164109762560)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /food (+350) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /food (+98) "/* Why */" (view diff)
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tantek are drinks a subset of food? or a kind of food?
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tantek the presence of expressions such as "liquid dinner", and acceptance by at least some that a smoothie, e.g. as prepared by vendors like Jamba Juice, is an acceptable meal, seems to lend credence to accepting drinks as food.
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tantek rhiaro, aaronpk - as people who post food posts, I'm wondering if this ^^^ reasoning makes sense to you and your food post publishing
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tantek.com edited /food (+386) "attempt to capture the drink vs food question as an FAQ in hopes of having some thinking on the matter" (view diff)
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tantek !tell aaronpk,rhiaro does this make sense to you, as people that post /food /posts? http://indiewebcamp.com/food#Are_drinks_really_food
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu boom! my site is backup with a new cert! finally
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Great
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yea switched to SSLmate was pretty painless i must say. Will write post about them
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks as expected http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/in-the-case-of-digital-content-the-artifact-once-created shows up as a mention which isn't marginalia-ed yet. Will work on that
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GWG !tell acegiak Are you willing to beta test Version 2.0 of Post Kinds before I move on to more enhancements?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KartikPrabhu, what is SSLmate?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes I know. Will add a page or add to the https page soon