#indiewebcamp 2015-05-27

2015-05-27 UTC
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Loqi [mention] Chris Aldrich commented 'I've been doing something similar myself, particularly given the number of social media outlets to which one can publish. To solve part of ...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/ive-been-doing-something-similar-myself-particularly-given-the-number)
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@misuba Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use your shit. (twitter.com/_/status/603371611266285570)
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@icicle RT @misuba: Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use yo… (twitter.com/_/status/603371809698787328)
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aaronpk lol that's not really how it works
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aaronpk misuba: not sure what exactly you're referencing there...
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misuba I admit I’m looking, again, for something to install.
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misuba Not to spend my off hours hacking on for weeks. Can’t do that anymore.
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KartikPrabhu I don't think any indieweb project *needs* you to install TLS certs
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aaronpk well withknown is the best option for that at the moment
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aaronpk they've got a really good install/onboarding process
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aaronpk which is not always an itch for others
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misuba known is the closest I’ve found, but it’s not distributed
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aaronpk lol what?
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aaronpk what definition of distributed are you referring to?
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misuba Can I subscribe, on my known installation, to someone on another?
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aaronpk known doesn't have a reader yet, afaik, but that is on the docket. in the mean time, you can sign in to reader.kylewm.com or monocle.p3k.io with your website to use a reader
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KartikPrabhu misuba: you mean known doesn't have a built-in reader yet
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aaronpk turns out having a "built-in reader" is also not something everyone wants, and the next best thing is being able to use a reader that posts replies, favorites, etc to your own site
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misuba KartikPrabhu: the Linked Data stuff requires TLS certs except in one implementation
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aaronpk linked data != indieweb
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KartikPrabhu that ^
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aaronpk only a few people here are touching linked data
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misuba Linked data is not a part of the set of projects you would call “indie web”?
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aaronpk if someone is using it to build their personal website then sure
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aaronpk but none of the indieweb interop stuff uses linked data
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misuba I’m looking for stuff that enables what I’m interested in doing. They seem to have a lot of it running, more than I see anywhere else
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KartikPrabhu misuba: projects are not "protocols" or "formats"
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KartikPrabhu what is project?
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Loqi These are projects you can use to get your site on the IndieWeb and improve your IndieWeb support https://indiewebcamp.com/project
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misuba Thanks, I’ve seen that page. I am, indeed, looking for things I can install.
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aaronpk misuba: if you can find a project that is built on linked data, install it on your website, and use it to replace your use of twitter ,etc, then you will have by far demonstrated more indieweb effort than i have seen from most others in the linkeddata community
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misuba That’d be cool, but I’m also building for multiuser. I’m not making my friends generate TLS certs. That’s a nonstarter. Hence my frustrated tweet.
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aaronpk but please don't confuse criticism of linked data projects and community with the indieweb community
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misuba I haven’t even seen any such criticism.
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/misuba/status/603371611266285570
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@misuba Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use your shit. (twitter.com/_/status/603371611266285570)
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aaronpk that was poorly worded. i was referring to yours. :)
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misuba I am frustrated with them, but it is certainly clear to me that they are a different bunch of folks.
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KartikPrabhu actually all the indieweb things that enable cross-site communication including IndieAuth, micropub, bridgy work without any TLS
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misuba Look, I know I’m not coming from the calmest place here, but… I really do not care about tribes. I am looking for something that works.
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misuba They work without TLS! Good! *sigh*
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aaronpk it's all good. right now, the best option you'll find here by far is withknown. there are several others that are pretty good as well, wordpress for example
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misuba I’ve spent my free time for the last day trying to figure out how to extend their Twitter plugin to hack around Bridgy
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misuba Bridgy fails silently for me, all the time, every time
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: ^ maybe you can help misuba here
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kylewm Known's Twitter plugin doesn't use Bridgy, afaik
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misuba No, it doesn’t. There is a separate Bridgy plugin that will… allegedly… do something I’ve never seen.
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kylewm I'd be happy to help debug if you can describe the issue, or file bugs on Bridgy or Known where applicable
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kylewm misuba: what version of Known are you using? 0.7.8+?
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misuba Right now the Bridgy plugin, although installed, doesn’t appear in the config menu. I will fish around for error messages when I can, they aren’t on the page
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misuba 0.7.8.5.1
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kylewm it's in the Settings page under "Interactions" rather than Bridgy
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kylewm also you can just use bridgy directly https://www.brid.gy/twitter/misuba
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misuba I have done that many times, yes
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misuba Maybe I just really, really don’t know how to use it, but I have enabled twitter+bridgy with the prev version of the plugin many times, used it manually many times… nothing
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misuba Like, I’ve just posted from my known install to twitter asking people to reply. What can I expect?
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kylewm you twitter account doesn't link your known page, so bridgy doesn't have any way to find your url
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misuba …okay. So, it sounds as if bridgy can’t do anything for me unless my known site is my main site and thus linked on my profile?
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KartikPrabhu that is the only way bridgy can know what your site is
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kylewm lemme try something
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misuba there’s no way to have my main site note where bridgy should look, in a header or link tag?
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kylewm misuba: you can add the theha.us link as text in your profile instead of as your "main site"... e.g. I just added indiewebcamp.com to https://twitter.com/kylewmahan
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kylewm and now bridgy includes it https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kylewmahan#
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kylewm I should say "http://theha.us" rather
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misuba that’s what i thought, yeah. great news
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Loqi yea
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kylewm and yeah, alternatively you could add a <link rel="feed" href="http://theha.us"> in the head of your primary site, but that would be a little weird
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misuba yeah it isn’t the feed exactly
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: wait what! So I can add any site to my twitter profile and make my replies go to that site?
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kylewm yeah, i mean, assuming that site links to your posts with u-syndication
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KartikPrabhu weird
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: ha, it's not any different than before. you could have said your personal site was http://aol.com
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misuba so what can I expect to see in Known?
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misuba I’ve got a reply and bridgy’s found it (by my manually having it check) but known isn’t visibly aware
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kylewm misuba: you have to re-authorize with bridgy for it to pick up the changed profile
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kylewm just click on Twitter here https://www.brid.gy/
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KartikPrabhu and this is what it might look like: http://werd.io/2015/i-want-to-talk-to-people-who-want-to-build
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misuba reauthorized, still nothin
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misuba and now I have to go. Time will tell I guess.
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misuba thanks all for the help
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Loqi slack/snarfed: <https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/226>
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kylewm I don't even understand what I wrote there, but I like that I used ∴
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aaronpk this is successful on my dev copy of indieauth.com :) https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/53
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aaronpk going to test it out more, but i'm optimistic!
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kylewm aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 821 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: regarding Bridgy not re-parsing new domains, it would be good if the Bridgy user page just had a button that said "look for new domains" or something
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kylewm that's a good idea. also we just need to suck it up and do https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/304
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KartikPrabhu right. But starting with an explicituser prompt might be easier than automating the whole thing
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KartikPrabhu misuba: It turns out that bridgy does not support re-parsing older posts after you add a new domain to your Twitter. But new posts should be found and replies will be backfed. Correct me if wrong kylewm ...
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kylewm yeah I mentioned that to him on twitter. who knows, it might work. we're not sure exactly what the failure mode is for bridgy
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Vendan aaronpk, any idea when that'll be live?
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Loqi Vendan: tantek left you a message on 5/25 at 11:39pm: Flickr 4.0.1/iOS experiment complete. As you both suspected, there is no actual Instagram integration, but rather only *after* you've uploaded a photo to Flickr, then you can "share" it to IG, which just passes it to the Instagram app's upload UI. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432622346836
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misuba here’s a wrinkle: nowhere on the page I’ve linked bridgy to does the text ‘u-syndication’ appear. I use Known’s default templates.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: misuba: u-syndication is for individual posts, not the front page
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Loqi slack/snarfed: <https://www.brid.gy/about#link>
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp
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misuba hello
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tantek hello misuba - I read the logs - was everything cleared up about indieweb vs. linked data vs. ssl/tls etc?
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tantek these things are all overlapping but none of them requires any of the others
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misuba hahahaha nothing was ever unclear to me about linked data!
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misuba apparently there’s been a tribal war in the recent past
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tantek misuba - then you're in better shape than most!
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misuba yeah, i wasn’t bringing it up with any idea that it was “affiliated” or something
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tantek misuba - can you provide links to evidence of this tribal war?
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tantek I haven't heard of it - especially in the context of indieweb
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misuba it does look pretty good from here though! but… usability.
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tantek or if it has nothing to do with indieweb, then don't worry about it
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tantek usability is THE #1 challenge
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misuba the only evidence i know of has been in this channel.
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tantek this channel has archives
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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tantek you can linke to days or specific lines
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misuba i mean just in the time i’ve been logged in today.
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tantek huh - still don't know of any such tribal war
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tantek maybe we have different understanding of what you mean
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misuba look, i dunno, i just can’t really explain ppl’s reactions here when i brought them up any other way
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tantek can you link to an example?
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misuba people earlier seemed really concerned that, hey, those guys are not us, and i was just so far from even caring about that. i was already clear on it
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tantek again, don't know what you're talking about - you'll have to provide a link
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misuba http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-26/line/1432690593949
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tantek that doesn't seem to be a concern but rather a dispelling of an apparent assumption from the context
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tantek there are some folks that use linked data or at least Semantic Web like concepts in ther indieweb sites, but the vast majority don't. still, it's up to each individual to choose their own plumbing.
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misuba to me, if it is trying to be distributed and do the things a social network does, it’s indieweb
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tantek those aren't actually the key values/principles of indieweb
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misuba the linked data projects seem pretty obviously aimed at that to me. not all of them explicitly, i suppose
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tantek misuba - it's not clear to me what linked data projects are particularly *aimed* at - but being *aimed* at doesn't actually matter
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tantek do you know anyone running their personal (i.e. *indie*) website using linked data? URL?
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tantek what's your personal website misuba?
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misuba my point is that that debate, what’s indieweb and what’s not, was not at all what’s important to me
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misuba i came here frustrated not being able to do something, and instead i got a faceful of corrections on what’s in what category. a pretty big context switch
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tantek misuba what are you trying to do with your personal website?
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tantek (yeah the corrections are likely an overreaction to lots of folks who have confused indiweb with other things)
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misuba ah - i can also see that that’s another convo that’s gonna go poorly. i’m breaking principle #3.
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misuba also i feel no particular need to replace my WP site
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tantek (that's good feedback that it's not useful nor friendly to provide it as initial reaction to someone new)
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tantek there are plenty of WordPress fans here!
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tantek WordPress is a very well supported CMS for indieweb functionality, features, formats, protocols
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misuba yeah, but today in particular has been frustrating due to my desire to keep my Known site on the side, as a possibly-multiuser utility
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tantek got it
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tantek I'm not an expert on Known, but there are definitely folks around here who are
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misuba i kinda wish Known weren’t trying to be totalizing that way. ephemeral content and content for the ages demand different software IMO
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tantek oh hey you're already in #knownchat also
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misuba yah
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tantek there's a greater chance of getting specific answers about Known features there I would assume - e.g. about multiuser utility
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tantek sorry to not be of more help!
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misuba no problem, glad there is some talk. i didn’t post to known’s channel because i’m always reluctant to be the one who breaks the stony silence :)
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tantek I have no such reluctance :)
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tantek if you do find yourself curious about WordPress and IndieWeb, this is a good starting point: https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress
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GWG I'll be happy to help as well
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benwerd wakes up
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: I noticed the Flickr 4.0.1 for iOS (native app) claims to now have "Share to Instagram" - that hints that it might be possible to POSSE to Flickr to POSSE to IG. Thought you might be interested. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432613474202
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benwerd tantek: and thanks for the heads up!
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tantek sigh, false alarm on that one (about Flickr to IG)
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benwerd booooo.
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benwerd misuba: Sorry about the silence in #knownchat. I get notifications if there's conversation there though.
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benwerd misuba: Really interested in your feedback, too. Curious what you mean by "totalizing"? I suspect I agree on this.
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tantek.com edited /Known (+71) "/* Development */ add withiknown.com/guides" (view diff)
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misuba hello!
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benwerd Howdy!
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misuba “totalizing” may be the wrong word - to me, I have WP for managing my “archive,” content that has value to contribute going forward
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misuba I am in the market for something to do the ephemeral communication. not (necessarily!) to throw it out the window in six minutes snapchat-style, but to be designed for conversation and daylogging.
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benwerd nods
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benwerd That's mostly what I use my Known site for - the day-to-day conversation. I find the Firefox integration really useful for this, eg to reply to Twitter.
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misuba obviously i can just not use the blogging stuff in known. (better, though, would be if it did Gplus-like tricks when I posted a link to WP.)
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tantek indiesnappishchat
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tantek goes back to figuring out webmention sending
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benwerd misuba: We're really conscious that it's not a WP replacement. I think you'll see it change over time to reflect this - including potentially losing the blog content type entirely.
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benwerd WP has its foibles but it's a very solid CMS for a great many people.
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misuba i’d love it if - and I’m not sure why I’ve been thinking about this - we could lose content types entirely, at least from the UI. detection over selection.
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tantek yeah!
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misuba G+ is great at that stuff, for all its flaws.
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benwerd misuba: _completely_ agree.
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benwerd content types were a misstep.
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endi benwerd: why not leave "Posts" a plugin that can be disabled? It doesn't have to lose anything for everyone, just for those that don't want to enable it.
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benwerd endi: It would be - just not enabled by default. Events are similar right now
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benwerd I blog on Known, so I'd want to keep using it
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benwerd But
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benwerd Having a single content type that can have other stuff added to it would be significantly better
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misuba posts make sense as a switch on status updates tho. typed more than 255 chars? here you go, here’s an opportunity to add a title and formatting.
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benwerd (Also with drafts and previews)
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endi yeah I don't have the content to go make a blog, but from time to time I may have something I want to write down and it's perfect to have the Posts as an option
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endi esp. in the [HowTo] type posts I can post to friends etc that may benefit from them.
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tantek imagines an indieclippy - "It looks like you're writing a blog post, would you like to add a title?"
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endi ^_^
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misuba “it looks like i’m on your screen, would you like me to sod off?”
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tantek that sounds like KevinMarks-speak. I wonder what he's faffing about right now. ;)
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tantek so much faffing
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endi I was just thinking would clippy just be a floating KevinMarks head hovering to the right?
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tantek oh my goodness that would be amazing
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misuba i wouldn’t use posts until there was an option for drafts.
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endi heh I write everything in BBEdit
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endi I've gotten so used to it I don't use any online UI to compose, just paste and make sure it's what I want before hitting publish
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misuba you could implement drafts as just posting an item to a group that only has yourself in it. #hint
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endi there are groups now?
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misuba nope
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misuba sorry. i shouldn’t be snarky like that here
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endi i thought multi-user mode perhaps has groups you can post to for internal publishing
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endi I've always run Known single user
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KevinMarks__ I get a floating kevinmarks head in medium
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misuba that would be so, so awesome even if it were just for internal users
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endi KevinMarks__: :) #IndieWebClippy
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KevinMarks__ Screenshot here
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KevinMarks__ http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/missing-ui-from-new-quill
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misuba endi: the only reason I was talking about the Linked Data people earlier is they’re looking at Web Access Control, which looks like a good approach
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endi I'm new to indieweb in general and my experiences have been Known and Bridgy for the most part
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endi I follow some of the concepts, code and test pages KevinMarks__ et. al. post but it's above my head so I try to learn what I can from it
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benwerd misuba / endi: right now you can run it a site as a closed group for internal users, but there aren't multiple groups within a site
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benwerd but we do have the metadata for access groups under the hood.
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misuba yesssssss
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endi KevinMarks__: Now it needs a chat bubble saying "Would you like to learn about Fragmentions?" :p
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endi which is next on my list of stuff to learn about
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KevinMarks known has it's own friendly popup robot
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misuba My goal is to get enough Known science into my head that I can be of some help in turning under-the-hood stuff into… over-the-hood? That’s not right
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misuba over the river and through the hood
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endi my goal is just to learn enough so I can be a competent tester and perhaps help somehow
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KevinMarks I did a new fragmention experiment the other day:
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/?rawtext=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com%2Fmentionquote.html%23%23with%2Ba%2Bfragmention%2C%2Bwe%2Bpotentially%2Bhave%2Ba%2Bquote%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bsource%2Bin%2Bthe%2Blink%2Bitself&maxurllength=0&embed=on
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KevinMarks hm, I think I need a new fragmention plugin
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endi Yeah I saw that. I'm fascinated by that ability to pull/quote bits from other sites/posts and still have it display so aesthetically w/ links and attribution etc
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+92) "/* Discovery in PHP */ only fall back to loading the HTML body if content-type is HTML or XHTML" (view diff)
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KevinMarks updated the chrome extension to make new style fragmentions: https://github.com/microformats/fragmentions
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KevinMarks I shoudl edit the etxt too
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endi So that system parses the post and finds the text? or do I as composer of the post need to make it parse-able by the fragmentions system?
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KevinMarks sorry, which bit?
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KevinMarks the code in my auto_link parsers the fragment and makes a <blockquote>
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endi I'm reading the Fragmentions readme; I'm just wondering if I am writing a post if I have to tag elements like with a URL anchor or if you're parsing the body and identifying the text?
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KevinMarks no, that's the point - fragmentions.js parses the text of the page
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KevinMarks if that's not clear I should definitely rewrite it
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endi alright, I figured but I was just making sure I'm understanding it correctly
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endi well, I was probably reading the example code from the wrong perspective
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KevinMarks the original post explains the idea more: http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html
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endi <p>
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endi <a href="##pursuit">TL;DR</a>
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endi </p>
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KevinMarks yeah, I should edit that explanation
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endi that bit, made it seem like I need to insert ##pursuit when I'm composing the post
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KevinMarks Jonathan was using minimal examples with single words
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endi to make it parse-able for fragmentions
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KevinMarks that's because it is in internal link on the page
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endi gotcha. I believe I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. That of the original poster not the poster mentioning the original post. if that makes sense.
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KevinMarks right
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endi when in the correct mindset it makes sense
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endi so my confusion was my own doing
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KevinMarks the example's aren't great
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KevinMarks also, I now prefer single # and %20 for better URL validity
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endi that makes sense as well
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KevinMarks as in I just made shit up originally, and created 2 violations of the URL spec
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KevinMarks ## is actually invalid
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KevinMarks that second example is very confusing
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KevinMarks as you should really % escape the unicode stars too
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KevinMarks I think I'll replace that with a link that actually works
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endi that should clear things up
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KevinMarks hm, the indiewebcamp wiki implementation doesn't support single # :(
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endi what other URL *valid* options are available
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KevinMarks blasted markdown
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endi wow is it just me or the changes at twit seem drastic
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endi I was just in #twitlive and it's a mess, been raging for the past 12 hours it seems
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KevinMarks I haven't been paying attention, what happened?
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KevinMarks (I'm on TWiG tomorrow, but haven't followed their changes)
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KevinMarks is this clearer?
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KevinMarks https://github.com/microformats/fragmentions
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endi Well, starting Monday June 1st the chatroom/chatserver is being shut down. also shows will not be live streamed, the post produced version will air 3-5 hrs after the recording
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KevinMarks oh wow
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KevinMarks where was that announced?
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endi ">Find this specific text<" -> ">Finds this specific text<" ?
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endi it was pre-MBW today with more pre-SN
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endi I don't believe an official blog post has been issued but there are tons of youtube clips floating around
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endi but back to the readme, yes it is clearer
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KevinMarks so instead there will be bootleg periscope streams from people in the audience seats?
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endi yeah quite a strange move. in a world moving to live streaming he's moving the model backwards after 10 years of live streaming?
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KevinMarks sounds like something to talk about with Jeff ;)
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endi I never contributed to chat as much as I should have because noise:signal was high but the live stream I often had it on in the background
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endi the pre-show post-show chatting you all do is almost as interesting as the shows.
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endi I would love to hear Jeff's opinions though in front of Leo I don't think they'll be complete or entirely candid
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KevinMarks oops, closed the wrong window
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endi "the pre-show post-show chatting you all do is almost as interesting as the shows." | "I would love to hear Jeff's opinions though in front of Leo I don't think they'll be complete or entirely candid"
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endi I will make an effort to watch live since it will be my last opportunity to do so :(
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endi her's a link to a video posted in #twitlive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfaUyDMJrlw
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@tmilos77 IndieWeb, Free Domain, nice HTML5 templates, octopress https://twitter.com/planetphp/status/603195149036953600 (twitter.com/_/status/603451900105760768)
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KevinMarks hm, lots of the tests in https://github.com/microformats/tests have empty results
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endi KevinMarks: getting the chrome extension loaded up in chrome, excited to test it out
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endi Error: Bad Request
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endi Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request.
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endi KevinMarks: Ran into that error with Fragmention URL: "https://weakdh.org/#Millions%20of%20HTTPS,%20SSH,%20and%20VPN%20servers%20all%20use%20the%20same%20prime%20numbers%20for%20Diffie-Hellman%20key%20exchange.%20Practitioners%20believed%20this%20was%20safe%20as%20long%20as%20new%20key%20exchange%20messages%20were%20generated%20for%20every%20connection.%20However,%20the%20first%20step%20in%20the%20number%20field%20sieve%E
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endi 2%80%94the%20most%20efficient%20algorithm%20for%20breaking%20a%20Diffie-Hellman%20connection%E2%80%94is%20dependent%20only%20on%20this%20prime.%20After%20this%20first%20step,%20an%20attacker%20can%20quickly%20break%20individual%20connections."
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KevinMarks may have been a bit long
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endi yeah, other two worked perfectly. I'll try w/ shorter quote.
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endi alright, lets see how that turns out.
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endi LOL nvm Known decided to not publish that post.
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@TheWritingGeek Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/603480820821708800)
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@Inkwater_Masha Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/603480821102678016)
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endi Alright, another try.
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@endi Bummed about #LogJam [testing: #fragmentions #indieweb] https://social.andrejstefanovski.com/2015/bummed-about-logjam-testing-fragmentions-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/603482519984611328)
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endi KevinMarks: Looks good :) There was an error in the paragraph involving the -- characters, they were inserted as a special a; I edited out the a and inserted '--' before posting.
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endi KevinMarks: Is the goal for the chrome extension to eventually display the HTML embed code? atm I got the fragmention URL and copied it to your unmung to create the HTML. It would perhaps make sense for a new tab to open w/ the Fragmention URL in one box and the HTML embed code in a box below it? So it's actionable in fewer steps?
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KevinMarks oh, interesting
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endi the error?
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KevinMarks making the chrome extension do that
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endi oh, yeah that would rock
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KevinMarks currently ti just changes the addressbar to the selected fragmention
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endi highlight, right click -> create fragmention and boom you've got the embed code infront of you
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endi yeah, took me a while to realize it had done something.
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KevinMarks making it bale to post the bookmark by micropub would be interesting
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KevinMarks maybe that's too far
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endi interesting but isn't that assuming one per post? meaning you'd initiate the post by finding the fragmentation and then editing around it before publishing? or do you mean in a non-Post context
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endi like a simple bookmark context
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endi personally having a fragmention URL and HTML embed code presented would be the most useful but I'm probably not thinking of all the possible applications
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GWG Good morning
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cweiske pfefferle, how did you edit https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/wiki/Hubs ? I don't see an edit button
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kylewm is it possible in nginx to set the ssl_ciphers et al for all virtual servers in one place, rather than updating them for each configuration?
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KartikPrabhu of interest: http://worrydream.com/TheWebOfAlexandria/2.html
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aaronpk kylewm: yes, you can put it in the http block
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kylewm heh... i have been doing that wrong
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kylewm ty aaronpk
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kylewm related: I generated unique dhparams.pem for my server per https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html, it was much easier than expected
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: are you on a VPS?
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tantek aaronpk, kylewm is that an FAQ worthy of adding to /HTTPS ?
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tantek re: how to set the ssl_ciphers et al for all virtual servers in one place in nginx
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu interesting article that webofalexandria2 thing, except mostly handwringing about the ephemerality/persistence ambiguity. ambiguity = flexibility = opportunity. actual answer: we're all going to end up auto-persistent-caching everything we personally read (sans ads), sync'd across our devices. like personal history++.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Vendan one thing on that, tantek: stuff like ipfs. All "published" content, like pictures and videos and even web pages and such, is stored in a content addressable system
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Vendan and if you want to "keep" something, you can pin it. Once you pin it, it stays on your server until you unpin it, and people can access it out of your datastore as well
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tantek Vendan "content addressable system" - lol
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tantek that's one of the "boil the ocean" phrase detections
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Vendan I take it you don't like the idea of a content addressable system? or what?
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tantek Vendan - no, the idea is one of those that's been talked about for a while but never really prototyped in any usable way anywhere except in little closed lab experiments.
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tantek so I have trouble taking it seriously. usually such systems are worse versions of URLs
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KevinMarks__ Not quite true - we have a huge example of content addressable archiving in bit torrent of video via pirate bay et al
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KevinMarks__ And akamai is a content addressable archive underneath
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tantek alright KevinMarks, since you're apparently knowledgable about such examples ...
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tantek what is content addressable?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "content addressable" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=content+addressable&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-27%2Fline%2F1432744968164
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tantek ^^^ citations welcome :)
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KevinMarks__ Also, having a URL for every version you edit is useful http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/05/keep-all-versions.html
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tantek but not as useful as the *more common* use-case of having a URL for the "live" thing
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tantek sacrificing the live URL for "URL for every version you edit" is the dumbest kind of optimizing for the edge case rather than the common-case a common anti-pattern among engineers.
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KartikPrabhu we all know that the real answer is DOI ;)
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 29 minutes ago: interesting article that webofalexandria2 thing, except mostly handwringing about the ephemerality/persistence ambiguity. ambiguity = flexibility = opportunity. actual answer: we're all going to end up auto-persistent-caching everything we personally read (sans ads), sync'd across our devices. like personal history++. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432743927049
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tantek KartikPrabhu: DOIs are even funnier. It's like DNS but more fragile.
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KartikPrabhu nods :)
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tantek what is a DOI
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Loqi DOI is an abbreviation for Digital Object Identifier, "a character string used to uniquely identify an object such as an electronic document[1]", kind of like a URL with more bureaucracy https://indiewebcamp.com/DOI
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tantek oh good :)
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KartikPrabhu i was worried I'd have to write one <phew>
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KartikPrabhu also that article raises a good point though. I think lay users get confused about whether the Internet rememebers or forgets
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KevinMarks__ So DOI is DOA? Put it in an URN?
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KevinMarks__ That's Norton's law.
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tantek what is Norton's law?
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KevinMarks__ Norton's law is "In the long run everything is either public or deleted."
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tantek Loqi no likey tickmark
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek gives Loqi a tickmark
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Loqi throws the tickmark
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tantek I knew it
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret lol
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tantek ?
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aaronpk question for everyone who has implemented editing via micropub...
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aaronpk how hard/awkward was it to handle creating and consuming the form-encoded post for edits?
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aaronpk and would something like this JSON be easier? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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rhiaro my implementation of editing doesn't count right?
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Loqi rhiaro: tantek left you a message on 5/25 at 3:25pm: the term "consume" makes sense, except, especially in the online context, it tends to include non-physical things too - which seems quite outside the bounds/meaning of food&drink. Would "ingest" work for you if you're looking for a more generic term than "food"? (but still implying physical consumption rather than virtual consumption like reading / listening ? ) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432592721014
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aaronpk rhiaro: lol
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rhiaro also aaronpk how can I force quill to try harder at getting my location?
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tantek aaronpk: if you're going to use JSON - why not re-use the mf2 parsed output?
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aaronpk tantek: the problem isn't the creating, it's modifying individual properties. there isn't an mf2 output for that
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rhiaro It thinks I'm in Zadar and I'm totally in Korenica and I can't post under these false pretences
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aaronpk creating could use the mf2 parsed output easily
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aaronpk it's just that every value would be an array which adds complexity to the consuming code
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tantek which they likely already deal with because they parse mf2
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tantek you run into that as soon as you update multiple properties
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tantek and then you have worse complexity (string or array) instead of just always array
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tantek that's how we ended up with the mf2 JSON output
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tantek it's simpler for the feature set
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aaronpk okay it's not that much different, one sec
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tantek essentially you're walking the same design discovery path
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tantek which is fine (per teach a man to fish type reasoning)
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tantek just trying to save you time ;)
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aaronpk all i did was add array brackets around the content value :) https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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aaronpk and renamed "object" to "properties"
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tantek for the update, why not "update" instead of "object"
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tantek just like you have "add" and "remove" ?
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aaronpk does "update" sufficiently imply "replace"?
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tantek er why not "update" instead of "properties"
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tantek aaronpk: I just reused the term from CRUD
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aaronpk in CRUD, "update" also refers to partial changes
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tantek right, so only the properties listed get updated
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aaronpk replaced
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aaronpk vs the "add" which adds a tag for example, leaving existing tags in place
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aaronpk i'm not opposed to "update", just want to make sure it's clear
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tantek I figure re-use the term from CRUD makes it more clear than a new term
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rhiaro 'action' seems weird to me. Thoughts on { "delete": "http://example.com/post/1" } ?
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aaronpk well, properties wasn't a new term exactly
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aaronpk example is updated
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tantek and why remove instead of delete?
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tantek again, per CRUD terms
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aaronpk oh interesting, i actually think it makes sense to have both, one sec
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tantek wat? diff btw rm & del
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aaronpk and rhiaro good point, and that would completely remove the need for "action"
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aaronpk tantek: the difference is removing an entire set of values vs one value from the list
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tantek that's too subtle for a term difference IMO
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aaronpk e.g. given "category":["indieweb","indiewebcamp"], need to be able to remove the property "category", but also need to be able to remove just "indieweb" from the list
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tantek those are both just deletes of different granularity right?
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tantek no need for a new term?
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rhiaro { "url": "http://example.com/post/1", "delete": "category" } vs { "url": "http://example.com/post/1", "delete": { "category": ["indieweb"] } } ?
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tantek like that
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aaronpk using "remove" for the second example has the advantave of the value of "delete" is always a string poiting to a property, where "remove" would always be an object
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tantek again, too subtle of a difference to remember which is which
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aaronpk okay
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rhiaro I believe the policy here is to go with the simplest one and see if it breaks anything?
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aaronpk another potential confusion with "delete" is that "delete" may be referring to a property if there is also a url in the request, but if there is no URL, then delete is actually meaning delete the post at the URL given as the value of "delete"
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aaronpk will update example...
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tantek fewer terms = better. fewer new terms = better.
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rhiaro aaronpk: that doesn't seem confusing to me, unless I misunderstood, in which case, something is confusing
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rhiaro "delete": "something" just says delete whatever the value of delete is
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rhiaro in all cases
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aaronpk it's just a little trickier because it may be deleting a post or just one property
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tantek aaronpk - are these meant to be atomic edits? or could you combine e.g. deleting a value of one property (like a category) with deleting another whole property (e.g. summary)
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rhiaro with a url for context of where that value belongs if needed
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aaronpk you could definitely have multiple properties in any of these delete or add
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aaronpk okay check this out: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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tantek been refreshing :)
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tantek aaronpk: the create should include the full h-* item
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aaronpk including type?
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tantek yes, especially so
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aaronpk makes sense
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tantek I expect micropub clients to create objects other than h-entry, e.g. h-event
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aaronpk and h-card
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tantek right
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aaronpk this is looking pretty good it hink
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rhiaro that looks good
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aaronpk the only slightly odd thing is that the value of the "delete" property may be an object or an array
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rhiaro A+ would implement
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tantek aaronpk: or a string (URL)
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aaronpk oh right :P
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tantek "Creating a post" should cite the mf2 canonical JSON output
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aaronpk not sure what you mean. PR?
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tantek just to say that it's not a coincidence that type and properties map to the output of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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aaronpk k how's that?
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tantek looks great!
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aaronpk this seems reasonable
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tantek certainly a really good first draft to try implementing
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tantek now to figure out how to post an /edit post that does these things
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tantek or posts
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tantek e.g. the canonical example being "Personname updated their profile photo to … "
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aaronpk oh boy.. gotta add file uploads to this
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aaronpk the post "personname updated their profile photo..." isn't really an "edit" post, it's a *result* of the edit post
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tantek it is the edit post. the prose is just presentation.
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aaronpk maybe the distinction doesn't matter
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tantek the result is that their profile has a new image
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aaronpk the point is i can make the edit without making the post
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tantek the point is not "can" but rather the fact that these posts *do* show up with permalinks
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tantek thus it's better to model that
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tantek they have permalinks, get comments, likes etc.
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aaronpk that is still true when the post is a result of editing
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aaronpk i'm not arguing against the idea of edits having their own permalinks btw
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aaronpk i'm just not sold on actually using the URL that describes the edit to make the edit
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tantek going to have to think about how to best markup "Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg"
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tantek before even getting to discussions about URL that describes the edit vs. URL of the edit
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tantek I think it's worth figuring out the publishing markup
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aaronpk what do you mean "URL that describes the edit vs. URL of the edit"? those sound the same
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tantek well it happens at a certain time so
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tantek aaronpk: I was trying to repeat back to you what you said
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tantek perhaps s/that describes/of
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aaronpk i would be curious to see what a post that describes "Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg" would be marked up like
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tantek "Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg today at 13:37"
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tantek seems like an h-entry, has a clear author, and dt-published
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tantek so now to figure out a good way to convey update semantics to a property "photo" with a URL value.
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tantek this may require some time AFK
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aaronpk wonder if i should hold off on continuing the micropub json examples until we have a good idea of this kind of post...
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tantek it is probable
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aaronpk how about a child h-entry object that has only the properties that changed?
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tantek a child object may be needed, but would preferably avoid that
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KevinMarks if you want a prose example, thinkup shows edits: https://kevinmarks.thinkup.com/?u=kevinmarks&n=twitter&d=2015-05-25&s=bio_tracker
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tantek certainly no evidence that it would need to be an h-entry - as there is no separate author / date
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tantek nice example KevinMarks
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aaronpk i'm thinking about updating other things like h-card or h-event too
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tantek KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 114 karma
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tantek aaronpk: the point is that the update post itself makes sense as an h-entry
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aaronpk yes
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tantek based on the above author/date reasoning
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tantek but that doesn't imply anything about what if anything should be nested inside
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tantek there's at least three things the update has to point to
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KevinMarks i think thinkup shows photo changes too, but can't find one
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tantek the URL of the thing being updated (e.g maybe URL of your h-card?)
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tantek 2. the property being updated
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tantek 3. the new vlue
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tantek s/vlue/value
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Loqi tantek meant to say: 3. the new value
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tantek what is an edit?
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Loqi An edit (AKA diff, change) is a special type of reply that indicates a set of suggested changes to the post it is replying to. A collection of (presumably related) suggested edits in open source is often called a patch or pull request https://indiewebcamp.com/edit
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f598be72d7bad1a04eb5
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KevinMarks lol - thinkup interpreting long back and forth argument as BFF https://kevinmarks.thinkup.com/?u=kevinmarks&n=twitter&d=2015-05-17&s=bestie
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tantek KevinMarks: that's the classic BFF/frenemy confusion
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aaronpk (unrelated, that's a good example of the HTML whitespace being added to the parsed JSON and unintentially adding meaning to the parsed result)
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tantek aaronpk: the nested h-entry makes no sense, as noted above - no separate date/time
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tantek no need for another h-entry, so don't use one
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aaronpk oops that was supposed to be h-card
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aaronpk because it's an update to the h-card
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tantek s/class="u-author"/class="u-author h-card"
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tantek a-ha - then perhaps that needs a property to make the "update" semantic clear
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tantek e-update?
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tantek as in "e-update h-card"
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aaronpk updated https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f598be72d7bad1a04eb5
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KevinMarks hah at my 'friends' being UK Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet ministers https://kevinmarks.thinkup.com/?u=kevinmarks&n=twitter&d=2015-05-11&s=bio_tracker
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tantek KevinMarks: can you capture those edit example in /edit#Silo_Examples ? and upload screenshots?
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tantek aaronpk: now there's the challenge of how do you update actual URLs in your h-card?
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aaronpk heh yeah, and the implied p-name is killing me too
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tantek ah! the URL of the thing being updated is already spec'd!
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tantek one moment
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tantek kylewm did this
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tantek u-edit-of
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tantek then the nested microformat on e-update MUST only specify the properties that are actually updated
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aaronpk that makes sense
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tantek KevinMarks: please add the ThinkUp examples you provided to https://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Silo_Examples
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tantek aaronpk: then you can have e-update or e-delete properties to indicate which properties/values of which objects are being edited
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aaronpk the implied rules are messing this up tho
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aaronpk ah okay
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tantek we'll get to those next
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aaronpk using *-update and *-delete means it doesn't need to be a nested h-card anymore tho
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aaronpk oh wait maybe not
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tantek yeah it still does - to wrap the properties being updated/deleted
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tantek along with their values
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aaronpk okay refresh, that's where i am right now
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tantek s/p-update/e-update to make it clear the markup inside is relevant
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tantek rather, essential, to the edit
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aaronpk it is?
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tantek yes - u-photo for example :P
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aaronpk it doesn't change the parsed result
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tantek good point
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tantek and now we have a good reason to resolve http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided
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KevinMarks forgets the easy way to upload images again
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aaronpk KevinMarks: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:whatever.png
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tantek KevinMarks: I have the Upload page on the wiki bookmarked on my iPod for this very reason
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tantek for trivial uploading of mobile screenshots
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aaronpk didn't even know there was an upload page
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tantek aaronpk: see the footer on any wiki page when logged in
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tantek for the link to it
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tantek alright, if we resolve this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided by saying no implied URL in such cases, then that solves that implied property problem (similarly for u-photo)
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tantek that just leaves implied names
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kevinmarks.com edited /edit (+278) "/* ThinkUp */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:thinkupeditexample.png]]""
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KevinMarks di the screengrab on my 1x screen as the 2x one makes huge examples
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LanceyWork !tell kylewm install.py for redwind was never updated when you started using application factories and doesn't work anymore (can't import app or db from redwind). any plans to fix it?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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LanceyWork ty Loqi
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kylewm LanceyWork: thanks for the heads up, yes I can totally fix that
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Loqi kylewm: LanceyWork left you a message 45 seconds ago: install.py for redwind was never updated when you started using application factories and doesn't work anymore (can't import app or db from redwind). any plans to fix it? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432752921306
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LanceyWork awesome, thanks!
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KevinMarks ah, new http://www.kpcb.com/internet-trends
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tantek alright aaronpk we're close
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aaronpk very
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tantek now, semantically speaking, what does the text "profile photo" mean?
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KevinMarks why is put ellipses in bullets? WTF?
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aaronpk it's a text description of the property "u-photo"
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aaronpk s/text description/name
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: it's a name of the property "u-photo"
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aaronpk :)
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tantek not quite, it's a contextual name
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek ok wait the HTML markup does not reflect current practice
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tantek which is that the new image is typically *embedded* in such posts
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tantek a href=…jpg is not right
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tantek it should be an img src=…jpg
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aaronpk true, that makes it this: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f598be72d7bad1a04eb5
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tantek ok getting closer
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rhiaro oh, I missed discussing updating profiles with micropub?!
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rhiaro catches up
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rhiaro is too sleepy to really process this
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tantek rhiaro: specifically discussing /edit posts that update *part* of your profile
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tantek like your photo
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tantek we're basing our design on real world common cases
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aaronpk i bet linkedin has some good examples too
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tantek much better to figure out post markup before protocols
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tantek design from the glass down to the plumbing, not vice versa
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tantek abstractdatamodel--
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Loqi abstractdatamodel has -1 karma
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tantek aaronpk: we might be done
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tantek because right now the implied p-name is ""
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tantek of the nested update h-card
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aaronpk yeah, but that seems bad
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rhiaro yuhuh
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tantek no it's fine. you can't update a property to "", you delete it ;)
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aaronpk :/
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aaronpk i guess
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tantek lol
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KartikPrabhu man! micropub is getting more complex than last I checked
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rhiaro micropub+ :)
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aaronpk that does mean you have to check all entries in the "name" array and if they are all "" then ignore it
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tantek rather, you do that for all property arrays
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aaronpk or simpler, ignore any blank strings for properties
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tantek iterate through their values, and only act on non-empty values
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tantek phrasing in terms of a positive test / action
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tantek rather than negative (ignore, blank)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+113) "stub Brainstorming / edit of a specific property" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: this is good enough to wikify - can you copy/paste to https://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Edit_a_specific_property ?
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tantek and note that edit consumers MUST only act-on non-empty values
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tantek btw this would allow anyone to suggest edits of profile photos of anyone else
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tantek which is kind of neat
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GWG Good afternoon
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aaronparecki.com edited /edit (+1504) "/* Edit a specific property */ add example brainstormed in IRC http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27#t1432751189458" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /edit (-7) "/* Edit a specific property */ remove extra pre" (view diff)
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tantek in fact, this is something FB sort of allows with other profile properties
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aaronpk hah that's right
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aaronpk and linkedin with their "endorsements"
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tantek people can suggest your "city" for example
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GWG I don't trust people to do that
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loqi.me created /conference_slacking (+177) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by rhiaro" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+225) "/* Edit a specific property */ clarify MUST, cite discussion link and gist iteration for historical reference (in case anyone wants to revisit the reasoning/iteration behind the brainstorm)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+16) "/* Edit a specific property */ ws in markup to make it more readable" (view diff)
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tantek GWG that's ok you can ignore webmentions from such /edit posts from others ;)
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GWG I was pointing out a potential criticism
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tantek you could also trust a service (e.g. Swarm/Foursquare) to send you such updates via webmention to automatically update your current city
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aaronpk lol yeah
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KevinMarks pre Google i/o TWig coming up in 30 mins if you have thinsg fro me to talk about
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aaronpk spellchecker bot, sends you WMs with spelling corrections for your articles :)
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GWG KevinMarks: Have fun.
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tantek.com edited /edit (+559) "/* Silo Examples */ add Facebook since the common FB profile photo change example has helped drive this discussion" (view diff)
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GWG I'm looking for people to help me build better WordPress Indieweb tools, but that is a constant
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tantek KevinMarks - next IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club meetup is a week from tonight - mark your calendars: https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
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tantek speaking of which
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tantek aaronpk: are you hosting HWC PDX next week?
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aaronpk oh yeah, sure
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tantek GWG, any HWC NYC next week?
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tantek can you (both of you) update https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club accordingly?
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tantek post indie/FB events etc.
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aaronpk i kinda want to do a hack night again tho
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tantek aaronpk - that was an awesome brainstorm sesh
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aaronpk yes!
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GWG aaronpk: Hack night?
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tantek so now the question is are you going to change your site photo and post such a post manually to at least create a (manual) real world example we can cite
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aaronpk GWG: yes, spending the hour or two working on our websites
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GWG I'm on a plane that night, alas.
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GWG Maybe I need to add a development environment
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tantek aaronpk: but still take a photo!
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tantek needs to hurry up and finish his auto-webmention sending code before aaronpk posts an example of updating his personal site photo
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tantek … so I can comment on it more semi-automatically
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aaronpk i don't really have a good way to make one-off posts with custom microformats properties
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aaronpk i may need to build a way to do that... so i can experiment with stuff like this without adding infrastrcuture to my site
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tantek aaronpk: that's what snarfed does all the time - one-off posts with custom microformats properties - and it's been very helpful to learn from what he does
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rhiaro I can make one off posts with custom properties. I'll change my profile picture, right after I've made dinner
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tantek oh dear
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rhiaro what?!
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tantek I have a feeling this will stir more kefluffle in social web wg
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rhiaro :D
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rhiaro kerfuffle++
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Loqi kerfuffle has 1 karma
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rhiaro (it's at the bottom of my site at the moment, at #amy)
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rhiaro but I have a redesign of my homepage imminant
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aaronpk what, cause we're making progress?
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tantek is it kerfuffle or kerfluffle ?
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rhiaro both
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rhiaro depending on how silly you feel
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rhiaro the extra l is for silliness
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tantek Yahoo prefers kerfuffle
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rhiaro I mean, that's hwo I use it
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rhiaro I've had updating profile via micrpub on my agenda for *ages*
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aaronpk we're still a bit away from turning this update post into micropub
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tantek but we start with a manual update/edit post
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tantek since that's the preferred design center - closer to the user
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tantek then see if/how micropub can generate that
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rhiaro yeah
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rhiaro of course
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rhiaro I was getting excited
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tantek one step at a time
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aaronpk so the real question then is... should the micropub request use the "edit-of" property instead of "url" when editing?
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aaronpk and "delete-of" instead of "delete"?
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aaronpk actually...why is it "edit-of", shouldn't it be "update-of", following the earlier discussion of not using new terms for things...
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tantek aaronpk: no
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rhiaro I was just about to say that
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tantek it's always edit-of
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rhiaro oh
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aaronpk but.. CRUD
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rhiaro and dt-updated
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tantek because that's just the link
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rhiaro and a post with an edit-of would have its on url, right?
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tantek then you use p-update and p-delete
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rhiaro s/on/own
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Loqi rhiaro meant to say: and a post with an edit-of would have its own url, right?
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tantek for the embedded object of the things updated or deleted
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rhiaro I'm slightly confused re: update vs edit
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tantek which you can put inside /edit post
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tantek rhiaro: venn d: edit = updates + deletes
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rhiaro can you put that in a gist? I can never picture nested microformats
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rhiaro oh I see
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tantek it's an /edit post, and can have any number of values for p-update and p-delete properties
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aaronpk rhiaro: it's in this gist https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/f598be72d7bad1a04eb5
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aaronpk what's the value of the p-delete if it's not the URL?
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tantek also linked from https://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Edit_a_specific_property
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tantek aaronpk - same as what you were brainstorming earlier - the properties and/or values to delete
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aaronpk oh right okay, so what about deleting an entire post?
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tantek e.g. deleting a phone number
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tantek you want (need) to specify the whole property+value to make sure only that phone number is deleted
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aaronpk that would be delete-of, right?
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tantek aaronpk: no need for another *-of
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rhiaro oh I see the confusion here
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aaronpk but...how do you delete the whole post?
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rhiaro whole delete/update posts vs deleting properties
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tantek <span class="p-delete h-entry"></span> :P
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aaronpk an empty h-entry?
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tantek if you specify a particular property, then only that property gets deleted
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tantek if you specify a particular property and value, then only that value of that property gets deleted
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tantek this is exactly analogous to what we already brainstormed previously for micropub
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tantek in the JSON that is
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aaronpk not really, cause now you're saying if there's a "delete" property that contains an h-card and all of the properties of the h-card are empty, then that actually deletes the h-card itself
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tantek or does it delete the whole permalink?
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tantek is that what you're getting at?
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aaronpk that's what i mean
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tantek or just the h-card at that link?
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rhiaro if a delete is an update, you can leave a delete rationale
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rhiaro sorry if that was an aside, I'm paying half attention
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tantek yeah the tombstone
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tantek anyway - not to worried about it - let's exercise the update photo example first
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tantek s/ to / too /
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Loqi tantek meant to say: anyway - not too worried about it - let's exercise the update photo example first
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@akraland Mon nouveau blog sur #Known http://akraland.eu et c'est garanti #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/603651662444630016)
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tantek (and I'll ponder the question about deleting an entire permalink vs. the object at that permalink and see if it matters or is just more range14 faffing)
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aaronpk those two are basically the same thing aside from range14, but the question is more important if there is more than one object at the URL
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aaronpk such as an h-feed with nested h-entrys, or a home page with an h-card and h-entrys
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tantek aaronpk: that's solve by only allowing edits of the main object
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tantek nested stuff gets their own permalinks you're supposed to edit
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aaronpk my home page has a bunch of h-entrys without an enclosing h-feed tho
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aaronpk oh those all have their own URLs... hmm
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tantek :D
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tantek aaronpk: and as the example has established - your home page has an h-card with your site photo that you can update ;)
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tantek the rest is generated, not edited
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tantek aaronpk - per your earlier micropub / JSON brainstorming, the /edit post could likely use p-update, p-delete, and p-add
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KevinMarks why is this kp slideshow available as a pdf but not scrolling html?
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tantek KevinMarks: did you mean that for #indiechat ?
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KevinMarks well, it's an indieweb thing, slide markup
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tantek.com edited /edit (+238) "/* Edit a specific property */ add notes on p-delete and p-add, for deleting a property, specific value, or adding a property with a value" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: for now I've backed off from asserting deletion of the entire object - that may be a more special case to consider, especially per rhiaro's use case of leaving an explicit tombstone along with the 410
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tantek wonders if rhiaro ever captured her use-case on the wiki
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tantek what is delete?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/delete
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tantek ah yes: https://indiewebcamp.com/delete#Tombstoning
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rhiaro of course!
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rhiaro you're too persistant to ignore :)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+287) "/* Tombstoning */ expand, connect 410 to content returned with use-cases, separate ACL, then markup brainstorm" (view diff)
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tantek rhiaro: hopefully I kept the intent of what you meant and want ^^^
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tantek aaronpk: changed my mind - the empty embedded object looked weird - agree with you. scoped the p-delete brainstorm to just an entire property or a specific value
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rhiaro tantek: yeah - thanks - I wasn't really sure where to slot things in on that page
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tantek added p-add while in there for additions
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tantek oh oops that should have gone into brainstorming
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tantek rhiaro: if unsure, nest inside Brainstorming :)
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rhiaro okie dokie
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+11) "move tombstone to brainstorming" (view diff)
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tantek rhiaro: do you have any (public) examples of /deleted posts (with or without Tombstone)
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rhiaro no
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rhiaro if I did they'd all be "test"
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rhiaro I do plan to add that as part of my current micropubjson+new css effort
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tantek updates the indieweb examples on that page
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+156) "/* IndieWeb Implementations */ IndieWeb Examples, update section to modern format" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+93) "/* Edit a specific property */ related: user profile management user story" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+63) "/* ThinkUp */ fix image embed" (view diff)
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KevinMarks leo says his IRC is too trolly and wants a replacement - indie thoughts?
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aaronpk i suppose slack is out of the question?
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tantek yeah we've been fairly lucky with IRC so far in that way
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KevinMarks yeah, I don't want to bring the trolls over here
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tantek KevinMarks: have you spoke to him about tummeling?
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KevinMarks yes, he has mods
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tantek but they're insufficient?
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tantek hence "leo says his IRC is too trolly" ?
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KevinMarks yes, troll flooding
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bear the irc for twit is staffed with 10 or so mods that rotate thru the day
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bear all volunteers and with a lot of custom tools to track ip hoppers, nick changers and all the other dozens of ways to spoof irc
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tantek starting to sound meta -> #indiechat
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@degyanseth #indieweb https://twitter.com/topgold/status/603108392396259328 (twitter.com/_/status/603664792352620544)
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tantek KevinMarks: can you announce IndieWebCamp 2015 July 11-12 in Portland?
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tantek assuming you're on this Twit/Twig thing
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/2015#RSVP
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tantek and reminder to everyone here: sign-up! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Guest_List
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werd.io created /recommendation_engine (+746) "Recommendation engines in an indieweb context" (view diff)
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tantek someone that happened to be aggregating indie /likes could create a recommendation engine for suggested posts to read. you know, like in a /reader
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benwerd Indeed
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aaronpk in Monocle, there are only 2 URLs liked by more than one person right now
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aaronpk if I group by author, it's a much more interesting set of people whose posts are being liked :)
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tantek has become oversensitive to abstract definitions
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loqi.me created /abstract_definition (+85) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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KevinMarks "Re-Imagining Content... It’s Increasingly User-Generated / Curated & Surprising" - meeker
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tantek.com edited /recommendation_engine (+869) "include specific relatable examples in dfn, split into subsections, add silo examples, and more indie brainstorming" (view diff)
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KevinMarks "Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet"
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tantek benwerd ^^^ is this more of what you meant? https://indiewebcamp.com/recommendation_engine
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benwerd tantek: That's a lot of additional useful detail / structure, yes
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tantek oh wait I think we have Twitter examples
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tantek benwerd: is this an example of a recommendation engine at work? https://indiewebcamp.com/who_to_follow
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@kevinmarks “Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet” - @marymeeker #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/603674611964878848)
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tantek.com edited /who_to_follow (+70) "likely using recommendation engine" (view diff)
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benwerd tantek: A recommendation engine in a social networking profile context. Yes. That's the kind of thing I'm looking to figure out how to build.
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tantek.com edited /recommendation_engine (+94) "/* Silo Examples */ Twitter" (view diff)
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Vendan is there anything special I should do for my party on that guestlist? just sign up as a remote participant?
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tantek definitely sign up as a remote participant
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tantek solo party? or what capacity? net connection that can support talky IO?
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snarfed benwerd: out of curiosity, are users asking for it? or you just think they'd like it?
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tantek Vendan, at some point you could become another site for the *Camp that others could RSVP to
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Vendan probably could do up to 10? It's at the hackerspace I'm a member of, they're ok with me opening the doors for anyone to come to the camp
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benwerd snarfed: It's core to something but Known users aren't asking for it. In terms of Known, the single biggest thing is now "more templates" and "an app".
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benwerd (The, er, two single biggest things.)
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tantek Vendan - great! Then I'd say if you can find a co-organizer that can commit to helping you organize, go for it!
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Vendan we got a "hangout room" with a couch and room for probably 2~3 at desks, and a presentation room with a projector and a more desks
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Vendan a couple*
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tantek benwerd - would such a recommendation engine also help with the "empty home page" onboarding problem?
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benwerd tantek: Yes, in conjunction with a reader to click through to.
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tantek or is that something else? since there is no behavioral data to draw from
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Vendan not sure there's really any other indieweb people in Central NC region, but I'm going to post on the hackerspace's google group with the info
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KevinMarks we could find the old school blog types there
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tantek.com edited /recommendation_engine (+52) "services to silos - 4-tell" (view diff)
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snarfed benwerd: got it. i definitely buy the reader part, but i wonder a bit about a recommendation engine. that could be just me though, not representative. (more: https://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond##Unfortunately )
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benwerd snarfed: It's actually to make search more relevant / not just semantic.
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snarfed search! ah, that's different. cool.
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snarfed (and i assume s/semantic/keyword/ :P)
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benwerd So yes, it could help with blank page syndrome and a few other things, but making search work well, based on your own activity, and potentially based on your own tweaked algorithm!, is an interesting problem that I don't know enough about.
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benwerd And yes.
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kylewm sounds like the kind of thing that would be pretty easy to do poorly and very hard to do well :)
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benwerd Indeed :)
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tantek.com edited /recommendation_engine (+170) "/* Twitter */ mention a few more Twitter features" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /recommendation_engine (+79) "add Why question that begs it" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd could you add some of that to https://indiewebcamp.com/recommendation_engine#Why ?
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werd.io edited /recommendation_engine (+258) "/* Why */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /note (-1) "fix frag link" (view diff)
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KevinMarks leo says he has indieweb questions coming up
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KevinMarks he was talking about using Parse for his backend
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aaronpk benwerd: just don't start sending out those "popular in your network" emails ;)
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@bingobaa https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/603691257265856512)
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KevinMarks mentioned indiewebcamp
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KevinMarks irc comment that the website needs redesign (maybe on mobile)
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aaronpk heh
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KevinMarks wow, was that nearly 3 hours?
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Loqi [mention] http://boffosocko.com/2015/05/27/the-category-theory-site-is-now-live/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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gRegorLove Speaking of wiki redesign, I wanted to work on customizing the design made at IWC 2015 per the feedback I was collecting https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues
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gRegorLove If I'm digging into MediaWiki though, it would probably be a good idea to update our MW version first, so I might do that. aaronpk said he could get me a zip of the plugins/db so I can set up a local copy.
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gRegorLove I think ben_thatmustbeme was talking about upgrading MW a while back. Not sure if he got anywhere with that? Don't want to redo any existing work.
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KartikPrabhu of interest: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/05/web_vs_native_l.html
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KartikPrabhu tantek will have a bunch of objections that I can predict and agree with :P
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KartikPrabhu particularly "If the user doesn’t want your icon on his home screen [...] it’s the web they want"
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bret react is doing some insane things to bridge the native/web performance gap. wish it wasnt so frameworky though. and no jsx >:[
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that article is meh
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yup! not a very convincing argument but people seem to be convinced
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bret https://github.com/tadeuzagallo/GithubPulse is a javascript app that feels as solid as dropbox's app
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tantek people do build things? or people that just send emails?
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KartikPrabhu I found it via http://www.subtraction.com/2015/05/27/web-vs-native-a-call-for-the-web-to-concede-defeat/
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bret have you cats played with electron yet? its my new favorite thing: https://github.com/atom/electron
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tantek KartikPrabhu: trivial debunking in a follow-up comment to someone else that posted that on my FB POSSE copy