#indiewebcamp 2015-05-28

2015-05-28 UTC
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KartikPrabhu also the argument also arises on http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/5/14/apps-versus-the-web
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tantek by people - posting on the web
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KevinMarks it reminds me of the C vs Python debate
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tantek not in apps
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tantek so it's nice that their actions speak louder than their words
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tantek KartikPrabhu: https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101695378888913?comment_id=10101697015848433&offset=0&total_comments=8&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D&pnref=story
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kylewm I'm actually a little surprised to hear you (tantek) disagree with that article.
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KartikPrabhu bret: really amusing that people now build native apps using web tech by bundling in Chromium (a web browser) with it :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what do you mean by "people seem to be convinced" ?
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bret KartikPrabhu: beats writing boierplate objective c
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tantek who?
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KevinMarks I relaised that the facebook "8 seconds to the web" thing works the other way too
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bret or *shudder* win32
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KartikPrabhu tantek: My sample size of 2 :P was the two links above from subtraction.com and ben-evans.com
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KevinMarks if you're on the web and click a facebook link you have to wait for the app switch and launch
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KartikPrabhu bret: at that point one should ask "do you actually need a native app for this"
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KevinMarks whereas if the facebook replies are there via webmention/bridgy/known etc you don't have to click at all
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bret KartikPrabhu: if you want unhindered, offline access to the OS and hard apis, yes
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bret hardware*
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bret eg bluetoothe low energy
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bret disk access
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bret and things like the system tray variants and
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KartikPrabhu disk access is mainly the only case I can think of being justified. But most "native apps" don't need it
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tantek kylewm: why surprised? the article is littered with strawman arguments, false dichotomies (icon on your homescreen), etc.
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bret KartikPrabhu: you are right a lot can be moved into the browser space
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tantek bret - except apps rarely use any/all of those things
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KartikPrabhu the only thing on my phone that actually needs disk access is my podcast app that downloads podcasts for offline listening. Even Feedly doesn't allow downloading post for offline reading so there...
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tantek nearly all apps fail offline for example. so why bother with them?
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gRegorLove Skimming that article... if your webapp is doing stuff to the scrollbar, well yeah, that's certain a problem. Use less JS!
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bret tantek: /me likes system tray apps https://github.com/bcomnes/mooon
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gRegorLove Not really an argument for using native instead
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bret twitter client style micropub client in your tray? yes please
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: yeah that whole argument is very thin
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kylewm tantek: I guess, high-level, it reminded me in some ways of js;dr and eric meyer's talk with the "the web is not a platform" slide
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tantek anyway, I'll stand by this: So-called native apps are just ephemeral UX prototypes for what we're building to actually last on the web.
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KevinMarks notifications are the part I use , yes
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tantek document native apps / UI etc. as prototypes to consider
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tantek and then rebuild them, better, for yourself, for others
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KevinMarks Native apps are browsers that only work on one website
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KartikPrabhu if a micropub app stored drafts offline I'd give it a pass on native
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bret KartikPrabhu: would rather write that as an electron app then having to target Qt or some shit
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KartikPrabhu a good one is the Google Maps app allows offline saving of maps
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bret they have that?
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KartikPrabhu i think so at least iin Android
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tantek anyway, native vs web handwringing is a distraction
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bret oh yeah google maps app can cache stuff, totally hidden feature
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KartikPrabhu though I haven't tested what map/navigation features are supported
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KevinMarks even more hidden now
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kylewm I'm sure you've all read this already http://werd.io/2015/10-things-to-consider-about-the-future-of-web-applications
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KartikPrabhu but yes, apart from offline use nothing on any app at the moment needs "native" it is all glamour and gloss
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tantek bret - there's a better app that gmaps for that - maps.me I think (recommended by dbaron - I need to get it) - you can pre-cache a whole city
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tantek e.g. if you're traveling somewhere you don't expect to have any wifi/cell
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bret cool tantek ill check it out
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tantek yes there are cases where so-called native apps can provide actual functional feature advantages, but those are rare
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tantek and worth studying, so we can grow the web platform accordingly
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bret still waiting for a web based 'reader' that can reach the ui performance and fluidity of reeder.app... will happen someday
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kylewm I wouldn't call it rare that people want to post photos, video, or audio
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tantek kylewm: not the use-case, but the app
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: transcoding and compression are also good use-cases that I missed
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tantek kylewm: I should have been more clear
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tantek yes, photo and video taking / posting is a big one - but you don't need many apps for that.
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tantek the rarity is the number of apps you actually need for such beyond-web-functionality.
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bret I also want to see more http://demo.hyperboot.org/ style web apps. clients less beholden to the host
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but you have to grant that if there is no transcoding/compression native in the browser (currently) then that use-case is solved by native apps or something?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no. js based compression (nevermind crypto) etc. is quickly catching up
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KartikPrabhu hmm I see
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kylewm bret: http://demo.hyperboot.org/ is blank, and I don't have no-script!
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bret oh gangster... much have a app.manifest copy running
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bret must*
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tantek functions that really need acceleration can be incorporated into WebAPIs as needed (as shown by profiling)
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bret kylewm: try chrome?
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bret ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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kylewm blank in chrome too!
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bret weird
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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bret https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gmvzpw5sc7k3q8/Screenshot%202015-05-27%2017.16.55.png?dl=0
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kylewm maybe it only works in OSX Chrome
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bret your browser short circuits app.manifest and lets you run whatever version of the 'webapp' you prefer
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bret i have all the copies saved. maybe that server is down
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KartikPrabhu works on Linux Firefox for me
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bret hrmm weird yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/
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kylewm I get a js error "hash mismatch
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kylewm " in both browsers
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tantek anyway - this all seems fairly off topic (except for the bits about using "native" apps to post to your own site)
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gRegorLove I see "my way cool app" in PC Firefox
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that is actually why I brought it up. I'd love to have a micropub/reader that stores drafts/readlater posts for offline edits/reading
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snarfed late to the party, and i'm sure i'll regret it…but "nearly all apps fail offline" is not at all true
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kylewm also, opening the Twitter app on my phone feels much faster than loading Twitter.com or Woodwind in a browser
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snarfed just as a data point, i'm a heavy phone user, and most of the apps i use most work *great* offline. it's a big reason why i use them. happy to enumerate them if anyone wants.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: offline webAPIs work "good enough" to build a micropub/reader that stores drafts / pre-caches posts to read.
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aaronpk it takes >3s to even load the twitter app on my phone, not including fetching new tweets
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KartikPrabhu tantek: mostly limited by localStorage space. I'd doubt having 5 podcasts offline will work
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bret aaronpk: 5s?
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aaronpk i know i'm not supposed to say this, but i had good luck with app manifest when i built the quill editor
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tantek snarfed, as someone who operates in nearly always transient network availability (except home/work/cafes), for me, nearly all apps fail offline. And badly so.
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tantek E.g. ALL Google iOS apps fail very badly offline.
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snarfed tantek: great! i totally acknowledge and understand that that's your personal experience. it's definitely not universal though.
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tantek haven't bothered to write-up a big rant blog post about that because there's too many positive blog posts in my queue to get to ;)
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tantek snarfed, offline functionality is one of the biggest misconceptions / assumptions about "native" apps.
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aaronpk there are definitely better tools for building a good offline experience in a native app though
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aaronpk but certainly not all app developers take advantage of them
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tantek most don't
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tantek in my experience
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tantek most native apps these days seem like cheap native wrappers around webviews, ergo, useless offline
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aaronpk (btw google maps has a secret offline mode. zoom in to a map area you want to store, then type "ok maps" in the search bar)
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snarfed tantek: "in my experience" is key there. my personal experience is totally different. i also have lots of offline/intermittent connectivity, and my heaviest used apps generally work great.
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bret aaronpk: heritick! ;)
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snarfed gmail, kindle, feed reader (newsblur), wordpress, podcast player, music player, photo viewer, google tasks, google docs (etc), asana, quip…all work *great* offline for me personally.
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bret heretic*
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bret wow
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snarfed anyway. debating different personal experiences is only marginally useful. i'll stop pushing
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tantek snarfed - good to know!
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tantek positive examples are useful
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aaronpk don't forget Messages ;)
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snarfed aaronpk: true!
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bret im all for BAAOS
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bret browser as an operating system
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snarfed i wish i use *any* mobile webapps that worked well offline…but nope
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aaronpk i'll add to that list: Google Calendar, Runkeeper, Wunderlist, Dropbox, and that doesn't include apps that are *primarily* offline apps with online sync functionality
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KevinMarks the old google reader website worked better then the app in my experience
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bret my understanding of native was mainly a performance issue... you can get closer to the metal on slow hardware (relative to a laptop/desktop) plus access to more hardware. obv thats not the case for most apps though
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snarfed aaronpk: agreed. the "offline first, with sync" pattern seems to be more common among app developers who actually care
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snarfed anyway. gotta run.
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bret bye snarfed
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bret me to bbl!
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aaronpk i do hope the tools for building good offline experiences are made available to web apps soon though
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aaronpk localstorage and app manifest have helped a ton already
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tantek for me: Nike+ Running, Settings, Clock, Calculator, United, Notes, Starbucks, Passbook, Expensify, Photos, Camera, Music, Messages, iBooks, Authenticator, PicFrame, SkyGuide, and most games
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bret seems like a pooly understood pattern in webdev.
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bret internet connections are like oxygen
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tantek bret most "native" apps do such a bad job with networking, as compared to what a browser has optimized, that they're often SLOWER than the website.
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tantek nevermind time to launch (native apps tend to be slower to launch than a well written minimal webpage)
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bret as you would when you offload rendering to a computer with a 750 Watt power supply ;)
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tantek aaronpk, I'd agree that the tooling and offline APIs for webapps are not very good. They do exist and are *possible*.
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bret s/computer/server
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Loqi bret meant to say: as you would when you offload rendering to a server with a 750 Watt power supply ;)
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kylewm tantek: do you use a bunch of web apps on your ipod?
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bret i think we agree though
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tantek kylewm: most of the time I'm using web on my iPod
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tantek I tend to just call them "web sites" though
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bret the twitter ios app tends to work better than the mobile web version, especially click targets.. a faster phone might help though
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kylewm well i mean, like you listed the apps you use, so i'm wondering if there are more applications built on the web platforms that you use also
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tantek yes Twitter has done a decent job (finally) with their iOS app
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tantek they're definitely an exception
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tantek they've also neglected their mobile site
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tantek FB is the opposite. their mobile site is so much better than their iOS app
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tantek kylewm: yes - everybody that has their own site :)
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bret there was some video a while back comparting the (then) native version of the ios app and a slightly improved web app version
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bret the web version blew away the native
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kylewm isn't that what elicited Zuck's "we put too much faith in HTML5" (or something) comment
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kylewm http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/11/mark-zuckerberg-our-biggest-mistake-with-mobile-was-betting-too-much-on-html5/
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tantek ironically they did so well their iOS app team couldn't catch up
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bret this video i was thinking of (maybe 2011? 2012? earlier) was for some framework
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bret haha
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bret https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59RTzD3Q8tE maybe?
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tantek anyway, I like snarfed's positive examples - if you can use the to inspire what you build for your site, that's a good thing
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tantek not sure what else is useful out of any of this debate
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aaronpk i think my next exploration into offline is making teacup log things when offline
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tantek that would be awesome
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tantek offline checkins are one of my big itches
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aaronpk mine too
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aaronpk well, after checkins
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tantek it's big enough that I'm not sure I want to bother with checkins unless I have it working offline
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tantek Checkie is "good enough" to hold me over as it were
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tantek Checkie + caching last 1000 places I've checked into and letting me checkin to them offline would be like the 99% case for me
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aaronpk i wonder how many venues you can fit into a 5mb cache
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aaronpk or, 4mb, leaving room for assets and the actual offline checkins
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aaronpk i can't imagine a venue requiring more than 4000kb
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aaronpk er, 4kb
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acegiak benwerd: did you just get a webmention from me on http://werd.io/2015/kylewmahan-this-is-pretty-great-upside-now-i-have-a or has my webmention plugin broken with latest indiewebpost kinds?
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GWG I broke it again?
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acegiak GWG, not sure
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acegiak first time I've indieweb replied
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acegiak but I can never remember if benwerd autopublishes or if he has a moderation queue
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GWG acegiak: I haven't in a while. But there is
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GWG Indieaction
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GWG acegiak: I should test it again
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GWG acegiak: I do have some thoughts, if you have a moment.
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acegiak shoot
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aaronparecki.com edited /how-to-sponsor (-274) (view diff)
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GWG acegiak: How is Version 2.0 treating you so far?
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kylewm acegiak: Known does not have a moderation queue
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kylewm it would show up more or less right away if it worked
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kylewm however, I don't think it shows plain mentions
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kylewm so it might be a markup issue
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aaronpk what other venues are confirmed for July 11-12?
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aaronpk none others are listed on the wiki yet
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aaronpk Vendan? GWG?
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GWG aaronpk: I'm still working on a venue. But I'd like to do it
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GWG !tell bear Can I count on you?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk cool
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GWG acegiak: I guess I'd better test it myself.
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aaronpk should get that nailed down soon! july is coming faster then you'd expect!
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GWG aaronpk: You know anyone who has one?
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GWG I don't have any money to pay for the ones that want money.
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GWG acegiak: I'm going to send a reply from my test site to my main site
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aaronpk i don't, sadly
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GWG aaronpk: I'm having trouble. I've emailed the guy who hosted it last year and a few colleges. But I need to see if I can find a sponsor of some kind.
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aaronpk i can help with sponsorship for food
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aaronpk i am getting back to someone right now so if that goes through there will be enough for both locations
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GWG aaronpk: I can do food. I need land.
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GWG acegiak: It works.
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2015/05/20/201552/
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GWG Look at the last one
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcamp-2015-sponsorship-prospectus.pdf]]""
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GWG It could be because I was using p-in-reply-to instead of u
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aaronparecki.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:indiewebcamp-2015-sponsorship-prospectus.pdf]]"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcamp-2015-sponsorship-prospectus-thumbnail.jpg]]""
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acegiak sorry, back
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aaronparecki.com edited /how-to-sponsor (-141) (view diff)
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Vendan I'm not sure it's really a "venue", just a place to have a remote party, aaronpk
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Vendan tbh, chances are decent that it's just going to be me there, and maybe one or 2 of the other hackerspace guys stopping in for part of it
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aaronpk maybe add it to the /2015 page under "Remote Participation" or something then?
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acegiak kylewm: get a webmention on this just now? https://kylewm.com/2015/05/new-goal-instead-of-trying-to-lose-weight-i-just
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aaronparecki.com edited /Sponsors (+628) (view diff)
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tantek reads http://werd.io/2015/10-things-to-consider-about-the-future-of-web-applications
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tantek benwerd's post really highlights that app ecosystems are much more "winner take all" style / amplifying - whereas on the web, drive-by usage of numerous websites is trivial
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tantek the shape of how web sites / apps work and are discovered seems to encourage a more diverse experience and ecosystem - not sure how native ecosystems can compete with that in the long run (diversity is what helps things evolve more over time, not winner-take-all ecosystems. species diversity and all that)
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tantek that being said, benwerd's personal experience with building Known as a mobile-friendly/ready web software/platform bring a lot of weight to his opinions
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acegiak GWG: where does indieweb post kinds send webmention now?
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acegiak in what class?
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GWG kind_taxonomy
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GWG The one that handles all the taxonomy work.
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KevinMarks__ Leo said he wants an app to make it easier to post audio and video to known
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aaronpk that sounds like a great idea for a micropub client :D
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Loqi slack/snarfed: mobilepub?
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KevinMarks__ Mobilepub is still web based - Leo was using it
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KevinMarks__ I was wondering if something like hyperlapse would work
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acegiak GWG: if (is_multi_array($cites)) {
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acegiak that's returning a false positive
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aaronpk my main issue with video and audio recording is I want to at least be able to trim the beginning/end of the clips after recording, and that makes building the app way harder
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GWG acegiak: Hmm...
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Loqi slack/snarfed: aaronpk: there's no native editor?
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aaronpk also I don't trust apps to not crash in the middle of recording video, so I mostly use the native iOS camera app to record, and then bring in the video to instagram or whatever later
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aaronpk @snarfed: "native" as in native UI control that can be used in an app, or native as in pre-installed separate app?
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aaronpk it looks like iOS Photos app can save a trimmed video as a new clip now. I think that's relatively new.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: for starters, the latter
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aaronpk the voice memos app has a trim feature too! cool
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aaronpk in that case, my preferred workflow would be to use the built-in apps to record and trim, and have a separate "micropub upload" app that can pick things from the photo library to upload
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GWG acegiak: I guess I need to find a better multi-array function, you think?
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aaronpk this doesn't look so bad... https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/AudioVideo/Conceptual/CameraAndPhotoLib_TopicsForIOS/Articles/PickinganItemfromthePhotoLibrary.html
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acegiak GWG: nah, just flip it around
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GWG How so?
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GWG If it is a multi_array, it will iterate through, if not, it won't.
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acegiak GWG: http://pastebin.com/4UayX86x
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acegiak I'll test it out
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GWG Okay. It seems to make sense though.
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acegiak GWG: I'm seeing dozens of copies of people's author icons in my media library btw
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GWG acegiak: Odd. Better fix that too.
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GWG acegiak: I did implement a sideload. I guess I forgot a shutoff feature.
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GWG I'm fixing that now.
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GWG acegiak: Do you have the same author multiple times?
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GWG acegiak: Pushed a setting to disable.
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tantek totally agree with aaronpk re: native apps are too crashy to dependably do anything with media like video / audio
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tantek I only use built-in (Apple written) apps for recording video/photos/audio on iOS
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tantek all the native apps suck at it
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tantek there's plenty of myths like that about what native apps are "good for"
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tantek when in practice they're not
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aaronpk the problem is they *can* be good (like apple's camera app) but it is not trivial to do so, so many of these apps end up being crashy
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aaronpk and because they *can* be good, it's easy to assume all of them are good by lumping them all under the "native app" bucket
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KevinMarks hyperlapse is good
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KartikPrabhu are/aren't >> can/can be
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aaronpk yes, hyperlapse is a great example of a well-written native video app
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aaronpk hopefully the hyperlapse team at facebook can port some of that over to instagram. i've had instagram crash during video recording one too many times and never record directly there anymore
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tantek same same
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tantek heck it crashes even when trying to trim start/end
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aaronpk also iOS app developers tend to assume everyone has the latest phone so the apps degrade on older devices over time as they push out updates
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aaronpk i had instagram crash while adjusting the contrast of a *photo* yesterday... on the previous gen ipod touch
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tantek that's another thing no one seems to admit to / talk about. "native" apps are so much more crashy than anything web.
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acegiak GWG: Yeah, I have the same author often
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acegiak cause I'm reblogging posts by people I follow
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GWG The version in the Github repo now has an option to disable for now. I may remove and look into a cache.
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acegiak is it also updated with that webmention fix?
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GWG acegiak: I'm still confused about that one.
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GWG It might be the multi-array function, but as I said, oddly enough it works for me.
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acegiak GWG: my testing showed it was treating the strings as arrays?
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acegiak and thus false positive?
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GWG Okay.
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GWG Let me figure out another way to test for a multi-array.
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@malcolmblaney hoping to find time soon to work on #indieweb updates (and not post directly to silos like this) https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-05-28-PPK_writes_an_interesting_post_about_ (twitter.com/_/status/603775446724038657)
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GWG acegiak: I changed the test. It now checks by comparing the array count to the recursive array count.
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acegiak GWG: is that up on github?
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GWG Yes
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GWG See if it works for you.
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acegiak will do
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GWG acegiak: Any ideas for the future?
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kylewm acegiak: I never got a wm from you as far as i could tell
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acegiak kylewm: yeah, no it never got sent by the looks. that's the bug GWG and I are looking at
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GWG If you try the change, and update the post, it should resend the mention if it worked.
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kylewm I did get one from http://www.buzzfeed.com/petradimovski/the-alkaline-diet-a-diet-which-makes-sense-18len to https://kylewm.com/tags/podcasts
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acegiak GWG: same error still: http://pastebin.com/nFs8BTk7
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acegiak reverting back to my fix cause it works :S
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GWG Your fix was to disable support for non-multi-dimensional arrays, wasn't it?
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GWG Which would break something else
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acegiak what would it break?
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GWG You were inverting the condition?
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acegiak yeah. If it has the key "url" we treat it as non multidimensional and send the webmention. If it doesn't then we iterate through all the things in the array. If any of them has the key "url" we send out the webmention on that
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acegiak I don't see what will break
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GWG Then I missed the link to your solution.
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GWG I must have misunderstood.
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acegiak http://pastebin.com/4UayX86x
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acegiak is all cool
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GWG Think it makes sense to leave the error logging in?
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acegiak prolly not
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acegiak my code is littered with error_log lines cause I test in prod
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GWG I meant commented out.
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acegiak if you like
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GWG Might be useful for a debug later. I may need to rewrite.
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acegiak yeah
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GWG If you look, I did a lot of trying to avoid hardcoding certain things.
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GWG The change is going to wordpress.org as well.
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GWG I think a few of my changes may still have mistakes.
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acegiak GWG: you're doing an awesome job, dude. remember taht
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GWG acegiak: I don't want to lose the momentum. I spent all of the weekend rewriting Post Kinds and Syndication Links.
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GWG I'm on vacation starting next Wednesday for a week, and I'm loading up my computer with a dev environment to cover lack of net
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acegiak cool!
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell gRegorLove I had started to try to update the templates, but never got very far
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rhiaro I just searched for something to do with bridgy and one of the results was 'tantek likes bridgy publish' which is cool because when do like ever show up in search results? Only indielikes :D
cweiske, friedcell, KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks__, Jihaisse, Lancey, michel_v, jansauer, elf-pavlik, gRegorLove, KevinMarks and csarven joined the channel
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cweiske is there already a indieweb comment hosting silo service?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: what are the requirements?
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cweiske oh, assume I have no website and still want to comment on a indiewebified article
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cweiske so I log into my comment hosting silo, enter the URL I want to reply to and write my text
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KartikPrabhu hmm possibly not then there is: https://webmention.io/
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cweiske the comment webapp then sends out webmentions
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cweiske and the commented page can display the comment then
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cweiske webmention.io is for sites that want to display comments
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KartikPrabhu at that point why not comment on a silo and let bridgy handle the rest?
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cweiske I don't have a silo account
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KartikPrabhu then why not comment from your site and send webmentions?
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cweiske my site doesn't have reply yet
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KartikPrabhu it seems you are asking for an indieweb silo which seems like a paradox of some kind :P
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KartikPrabhu might be wrong
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: what would such a thing do which is different from commet silos like Disqus?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: to clarify not trying to be dismissive just want to know the usage :)
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cweiske yes, I could simply install known
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cweiske difference to disqus: it would be indieweb-friendly
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KartikPrabhu what is indieweb friendly?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indieweb friendly" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=indieweb+friendly&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-28%2Fline%2F1432799891807
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KartikPrabhu weird!
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cweiske has microformats, sends webmentions, has URLs for single comments
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KartikPrabhu should it support responses to your replies with webmention/backfeed?
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cweiske that's part two
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cweiske but as I said, I could simply install known
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KartikPrabhu it seems to me that at that point it is a hosted (not self-hosted) site for you :)
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KartikPrabhu for instance, one could say that you "replied to nothing" and that will be your own post ;)
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KartikPrabhu leaves it open for others since he is being dismissive now :)
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cweiske http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-05-28%20git.cweiske.de%20country%20access.png
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cweiske that's what you get for self-hosting git
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cweiske I'd suspect that those people are not able to use github.com and thus fall back to my server
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KevinMarks nice, andrej used my "fragmentions as blockquotes" thingy https://social.andrejstefanovski.com/2015/bummed-about-logjam-testing-fragmentions-indieweb
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kegan hey, I would be interested in going to the meetup in Edinburgh in July. The site says I should be pinging Amy (rhiaro?)
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endi KevinMarks: Yup it worked quite well :)
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fkooman ben_thatmustbeme, I tried https://ben.thatmustbe.me/new and it works with my own micropub service :)
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fkooman found interesting bug in php-fpm (fastcgi) where script_name also includes path_info... great stuff :P
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fkooman of course only fixed in latest php not available on centos... :)
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GWG Good morning, world.
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ben_thatmustbeme fkooman, great, glad to hear it worked
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GWG If I wanted to work on mf2 parsing...how would I do that on an offline system? Download copies of random pages?
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@BillSeitz RT @kevinmarks: “Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet” - @marymeeker #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/603918414621474816)
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retout.co.uk edited /IRC_People (+50) "/* Nicknames */ diocles" (view diff)
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rhiaro Hey kegan! You can sign up for IWC Edinburgh on the wiki if you have your own site you can sign in with. If not, I can add you to the list
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kegan thanks :)
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tantek.com created /indieweb_friendly (+22) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432799891807" (view diff)
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tantek what is an indieweb comment hosting silo service?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indieweb comment hosting silo service" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=indieweb+comment+hosting+silo+service&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-28%2Fline%2F1432824358430
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tantek an indieweb comment hosting silo service is a /comment hosting /silo that is indieweb /friendly, that is at a minimum allows you to create and host /reply posts properly marked up with [[h-entry]] and [[in-reply-to]], and sends [[webmentions]] for them as well.
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loqi.me created /indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service (+285) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432824358430 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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rhiaro I changed my travel plans, now I need to implement update properly so I can update /travel
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rhiaro #indiewebproblems
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tantek rhiaro: :) - what was the bridgy thing you were searching for that you found a like?
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rhiaro I was just looking for bridgy publish cos I needed to retweet something and couldn't remember the exact URL and Firefox on my phone doesn't manage to sync my history apparently
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rhiaro I need to automate posseing likes and reposts to twitter
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rhiaro It's like two lines of code I should really just do it
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tantek haha just found it - that's hilarious - I was liking one of kylewm's posts
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rhiaro It's awesome that small interactions become searchable
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tantek yes! I totally recommend it - have been very happy with automating my likes of tweets POSSEing to Twitter via Bridgy Publish
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tantek rhiaro: true! that's something I had not anticipated / expected
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tantek also provides another (like we need more) advantage for making everything a post
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tantek searchability of "activities" - works automatically if you just make them posts with good fallback plain text design. presto.
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tantek plaintextdesign++
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Loqi plaintextdesign has 1 karma
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tantek aw
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rhiaro Yuuuup
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tantek amazing what you learn when you actually build and deploy and use stuff live on your own site. :P sometimes weeks, months later after doing so. :)
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rhiaro Okay, I need to stop being sideways and do something useful. I had a lovely 18 mile hike today, but all I could think about was stuff I want to do to my site
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kylewm !tell cweiske is this like the comment-hosting service you were talking about? http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm.com edited /indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service (+78) "add Replier example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service (+120) "withknown works also" (view diff)
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tantek !tell cweiske what about creating an account on withknown.com just for writing comments/replies? More here, feel free to expand with what you're looking for: https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service (+15) "fix / links" (view diff)
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aaronpk today in silo wtf... google's search summary of the i/o site... http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/google-io-20150528-093951.png
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KevinMarks heh
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KevinMarks also, the vidoe is well hiden
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KevinMarks their website failed to notify me or link to this live video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-fIGMDsmE
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KevinMarks hm google talking about webview
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KevinMarks Chrome cutom webviews
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KevinMarks chroem custom tabs rather
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KevinMarks google fit claims to recognise squats, situps and pushups directly
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bret google io is talking schemas, run for cover
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KevinMarks i missed the schemas bit
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KevinMarks I have noticed the speech accuracy is really good now
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bear @GWG yt?
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Loqi bear: GWG left you a message on 5/27 at 6:26pm: Can I count on you? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432776403523
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bear !tell GWG yes - just confirmed with work that I will be able to attend (hotel, travel) and also that they will sponsor the event
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk \o/
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bear yes, i'm very excited
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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davidpeach hallo people
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davidpeach long time no speak
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davidpeach Do any of you use Google Play music : all access for streaming music?
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GWG bear: I am here now
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Loqi GWG: bear left you a message 14 minutes ago: yes - just confirmed with work that I will be able to attend (hotel, travel) and also that they will sponsor the event http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432836013155
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GWG bear, any ideas on venues? I am having trouble finding one
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GWG davidpeach: Long time no see
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davidpeach hi GWG
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davidpeach how are you?
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bear GWG - I am reaching out to some friends who do meetups in NY to find out what spaces are available
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davidpeach Ive built a little piece of functionality on my site, which I was going to extract into a microservice. I just wanted to gauge interest out there in it.
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bear goes to lunch
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snarfed almost 2h into the google io keynote and not a single mention of G+ yet :) :( X{
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davidpeach It's kind of a PESOS app for pulling in albums you listen to on google play music streaming - via a bookmarklet
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davidpeach you can see example of data pulled on my site footer - http://davidpea.ch
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GWG bear, I'll organize as much as possible
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GWG davidpeach: I released a beta location plug in.
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bear i'm reaching out to friends to find out possible spots - i'll let you know what I find
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bear gwg - I've got confirmation for our company to sponsor lunch
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bear really goes to lunch now
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davidpeach GWG : nice. Alas I no longer use WordPress for my website
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davidpeach but great job on it
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GWG davidpeach: I am always looking for people to give feedback, which is why I asked
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davidpeach GWG: cool. ill take a look
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GWG I want to improve it to attract new Indieweb people
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GWG By the way, I download my music, so can't help
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mattl tangent: my indie movie has 12 hours left on indiegogo. and our website is self hosted wordpress (soon to move to known pro) -- http://igg.me/at/orangu
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davidpeach oki
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davidpeach ANy others out there use Google play music all access ?
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endi davidpeach: I do
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davidpeach endi: hi
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davidpeach endi: have you seen my previous chat notes about what ive made?
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endi I just scrolled up and read you've integrated Album pulls?
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endi but not prior to those few lines
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@skierpage @openid Your http://openid.net/get-an-openid/ page says "use a service provider like Janrain". Uh, no, they died. https://indieauth.com/ instead? (twitter.com/_/status/604001549967204352)
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endi Did anyone catch anything about Desltop Apps for the new Photos service? Or does the upload/sync funtionality of Google Drive take on the photo uploading?
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endi s/Desltop/Desktop
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Loqi endi meant to say: Did anyone catch anything about Desktop Apps for the new Photos service? Or does the upload/sync funtionality of Google Drive take on the photo uploading?
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tantek endi - good question - are you wondering about trying to do so with your personal site?
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davidpeach endi: yer so when i listen to an album on the app, I click share and have a bookmarklet app that lets me share to a url endpoint. It points to a route on my site and then my site scrapes the content of that album page to get artist, album, image src and basic album info.
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endi well, I'm wondering how they're planning on structuring it. I often take large numbers of photos for family events and distributing those isn't always the easiest. I send out links to Flickr Albums but people don't know how to download/print/share further
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davidpeach endi: was tricky cuz some bits - like the album art - are loaded withjavascript, so had to use phantomjs for that to work.
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davidpeach endi: you can see the end result on my site footer : http:davidpea.ch
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endi so I'm wondering if we can incorporate the service to create sort of like albums built into our sites
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endi davidpeach: I'll take a look
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endi davidpeach: oh nice I like that.
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davidpeach id like to build it up over time. as they dont actually offer an api
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davidpeach thanks endi
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davidpeach endi: would you use a service like that?
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endi I've had this idea that I want to have a page of a personal site for example endi.com/hang-out in which there'd be something like that, an IRC webUI etc
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davidpeach endi: free ofc
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endi the idea would be to parallel people dropping by to 'hang out' as they would drop by in a dorm or other community parallel
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gRegorLove jQuery and jQuery UI can be so fragile. Updated a WordPress install, which updated the included jQuery version of course, and broke plugins that used older versions of jQuery UI.
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Loqi gRegorLove: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 5/27 at 10:31pm: I had started to try to update the templates, but never got very far http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432791103948
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gRegorLove Apparently the jQuery and jQuery UI versions have to be in sync or problems can arise.
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aaronpk programming is hard
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endi davidpeach: so that type of display might be interesting for that type of page
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Let's go shopping
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegorLove: yes they do
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davidpeach endi: how do you mean?
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tantek endi - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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endi davidpeach: I would perhaps use that type of 'status' element in a page such as the one I described above
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davidpeach endi: oh okay cool. Ill pop a link up on my wiki user page as soon as Ive got it working. Its working on own site - just got to gut it into a likkle microservice. Good excuse for me to use Lumen too!
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endi davidpeach: cool let me know I can certainly help test as well :)
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gRegorLove Hah. Now the lightbox JS on this site is incorrectly calculating the jQuery version v1.11 as being less than v1.3
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davidpeach endi: awesome thanks. Ive been trying to think of a way to contribute something to indieweb.
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tantek versionnumbers--
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Loqi versionnumbers has -1 karma
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aaronpk wow
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gRegorLove Poor javascript maths
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aaronpk counting is hard
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gRegorLove haha
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KevinMarks that's almost as funny as them having to skip windows 9
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endi I ran into the w/ TrueCrypt on Mac OS X 10.10 :( 10.10 < 10.4 or whatever and it wouldn't run the installer lol
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endi s/the/that
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Loqi endi meant to say: I ran into that w/ TrueCrypt on Mac OS X 10.10 :( 10.10 < 10.4 or whatever and it wouldn't run that installer lol
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KartikPrabhu but 1.11 < 1.3
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KartikPrabhu :P
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KartikPrabhu if you are going to use numbers then follow the rules damnnit!
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gRegorLove ::mumbles:: you're < 1.3...
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gRegorLove :)
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tantek welcome back cweiske!
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cweiske hi
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Loqi cweiske: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 32 minutes ago: is this like the comment-hosting service you were talking about? http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432825670004
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 28 minutes ago: what about creating an account on withknown.com just for writing comments/replies? More here, feel free to expand with what you're looking for: https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432825892734
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social.andrejstefanovski.com edited /IRC_People (+151) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek ooh social. - hadn't seen someone use that subdomain before
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cweiske I did when I had diaspora running
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cweiske 4 years ago
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endi yeah when I started I made it known.andrejstefanovski.com and then I thought why not social since these are posts I want to POSSE to social sites
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tantek makes sense
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endi and now I have the cert so it's not changing :p
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aaronpk when wordpress first came out were people setting up wordpress.example.com?
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tantek no wildcard cert?
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tantek aaronpk: yes
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endi heh no my cert was 6$ :p
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cweiske who can create accounts on that http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/ tool?
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aaronpk that gives me an idea
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loqi.me created /marchitecture (+388) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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endi I will definitely try using the new Google Photos to share albums on my sites
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endi So great that they won't force G+ login to view
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+127) "line breaks, see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is Google Photos?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Photos" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Google+Photos&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-28%2Fline%2F1432842980169
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loqi.me created /marketecture (+26) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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endi bbl
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+145) "more subheads, show dilbert inline" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+11) "l" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+20) "another" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+74) "img dilbert" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /architecture (+333) "stub" (view diff)
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kylewm cweiske: I thought Replier used to be indieauth based, surprised it's username/password now
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/davatron5000/status/603982003772395520
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@davatron5000 Good thing Google doesn't have a history of shutting down products n' stuff. (twitter.com/_/status/603982003772395520)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/andyguzman/status/603990751475716096
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@andyguzman @davatron5000 "Sunsetting", Dave. Google would never just shut something down. (twitter.com/_/status/603990751475716096)
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tantek I'm just going to leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Discontinued_Google_services
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kylewm cweiske: can you use huffduff-video to download youtube vids outside germany?
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kylewm cweiske: i think yes! https://huffduff-video.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/youtube.com_watchv=q5hgEB7U6Go.mp3
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cweiske kylewm, thanks. didn't know that
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kylewm oops, sorry that was supposed to be off-topic
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+236) "add 2008 Social Web Open Stack h/t kevinmarks, update dfn to include jargon, political reasons" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+145) "/* Examples */ they made a tshirt. SMH" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+140) "/* Examples */ 2009 The Blimp. I don't even." (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ Davidpeach I use Google play music
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KevinMarks__ Though not that often tbh, I'm more likely to listen to podcasts
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davidpeach Hi KevinMarks. cool. Ive built a way to pull in album data for currently listing to albums (by way of a bookmarklet) as a way to PESOS my albums I listen as well as log the dates and play counts. Bit hacky as they dont have an api
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tantek What is Google Play Music?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Play Music" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Google+Play+Music&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-28%2Fline%2F1432845993140
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davidpeach hi tantek
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davidpeach Ill create it yer cool
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davidpeach its a streaming music service
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davidpeach like spotify
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davidpeach but allows you to upload 50,000 of yopur own songs and it blends them into one big mega library
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KevinMarks__ Google play music is a service that stores your song files on Google servers and plays them back over the web. It also has a subscription model for big label music.
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loqi.me created /Google_play_music (+191) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432845993140 and dfn added by KevinMarks__" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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davidpeach im gonna try and build it out as a little micrtoservice so anyone can use it
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tantek aaronpk why "drink" Coffee, vs. (icon) Cocktail? (looking at your "all")
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aaronpk ??
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tantek oh n.m. the coffee icon didn't load and its alt text is "drink" :P
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tantek bad alt text. no biscuit.
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aaronpk well that worked swimmingly :)
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davidpea.ch created /Google_Play_Music (+977) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432845993140" (view diff)
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@davidpeach1 I just created a new page on @indiewebcamp https://indiewebcamp.com/Google_Play_Music #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/604030861927944193)
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tantek.com edited /Google_Play_Music (+67) "- extra top heading, +stub, add dfn, fix [] markup, more subheads, see also, linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Google (+41) "other services: play music" (view diff)
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bret acegiak: https://github.com/aaronpk/Monocle/issues/30
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KevinMarks__ Google play music is also a good way to back up your music collection, as you can download it all again
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tantek KevinMarks__: but do you get back what you upload? or the "generic" version that they've "de-duped" your uploads to?
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davidpeach is it ethically wrong to try and build a tool to scan google play for my album history and pull data into website?
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tantek IMO (IANAL) quite the opposite, you have moral rights to all your "activities"
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tantek and to keep/make backups/copies of them
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davidpeach Yer. Id like to give it a go. It's probably the top thing I'd like to track.
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tantek what is a listen?
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Loqi A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track, including concert recordings or DJ sets etc.) that you have listened to https://indiewebcamp.com/listen
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davidpeach plus it'd make one heck of a side project
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tantek davidpeach - add it to your itches! http://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying
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kylewm tantek: when I tried it, they gave me back the verison I uploaded... I was actually sorta hoping it would be an easy way to improve the bitrates of my mp3s
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tantek maybe they're saving enough from exact copy de-duping that it works for them
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davidpea.ch edited /User:Davidpea.ch (+341) "Updated my user page. Added Itches and working on" (view diff)
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tantek perhaps it's a hidden proof of the practicality of content addressing at least for music files on a massive scale
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davidpea.ch edited /User:Davidpea.ch (+68) (view diff)
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tantek davidpeach, where are you based? is there a /HWC near you?
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davidpeach tantek: Im based near Birmingham, UK. In tamworth.
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tantek would IWC /2015 in Brighton July 11-12 be a possibility for you?
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davidpeach tantek: Could be depending on train costs. Would be nice
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tantek davidpeach: add yourself and any explanatory text you like to the Brighton sublist here: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015#Candidate_Cities
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tantek and if you'd like to help co-organize, ping adactio here (!tell adactio) and put a little "o " in front of your name in that list
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bear https://developers.google.com/identity/
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tantek bear, context?
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bear I just ran across the link and wanted to post it - discovering context now to be honest
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bear it's a new site/service from google
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bear it's like indieauth for google accounts - heck, it looks like google signin could be added to indieauth
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tantek perhaps add to http://indiewebcamp.com/Google ?
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davidpeach tantek: is it normally an all-night thing? just pricing up accomodation
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davidpea.ch edited /2015 (+76) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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davidpea.ch edited /2015 (-1) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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davidpeach my page isn't coming up in the list of candiadates
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tantek bear, every year at I/O I believe Google rolls out a different identity strategy for developers
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tantek someone really should be keeping track of that
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tantek in terms of use OpenID, or Google Profiles, or Buzz, or Google Connect, or G+ or ...
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bear nods
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tantek they really have an identity identity problem
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davidpea.ch edited /2015 (+71) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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davidpeach sorted.
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tantek almost davidpeach - you were supposed to create /Template:davidpeach :)
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KartikPrabhu Did Google do a Orkut id for devs :P
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davidpeach tantek: i got confused - I added {{davidpeach}} and it came up as page not existing. other people's seem to link to user page but alas, mine did not
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tantek you need to click on it and create it
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KartikPrabhu davidpeach: you can see how mine is http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:kartik
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KartikPrabhu and copy pasta
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davidpea.ch edited /2015 (-71) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ a good approach in general
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 94 karma
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davidpea.ch created /Template:davidpeach (+86) "Created page with "This template displays a small h-card for <a href='/User:Davidpea.ch'>David Peach</a>."" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove++ for making my template :P
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Loqi gRegorLove has 4 karma
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davidpea.ch edited /Template:davidpeach (+23) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu davidpeach: try to edit mine and see the include only code that has h-card stuff in it.
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gRegorLove Documentation here http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:sparkline
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gRegorLove Wait, that's not the full thing. Nvm
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KartikPrabhu davidpeach: I am on your template. I can add an avatar if you'd like?
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davidpea.ch edited /Template:davidpeach (+79) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu that ^ worked
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KartikPrabhu this MediaWiki template stuff is not intuitive at all!
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davidpeach yayy!
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KartikPrabhu I had such a hard time too
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davidpeach thanks for the help
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davidpeach right, its bed time for me
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davidpeach good night all. take care
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Loqi goodnight!
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gRegorLove I think I could make a template like sparkline that takes the name, domain name, and a photo URL and generates it more easily, not having to mess with includeonly stuff.
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gRegorLove templates-in-templates, wee
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KartikPrabhu ha! templates to make templates :P
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KartikPrabhu damn! 7 seconds
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gRegorLove Hehe
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aaronpk oh man I forgot about my multilingual twitter bots
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aaronpk but i've been getting twitter spam emails from them now
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaronpk_sv https://twitter.com/aaronpk_de https://twitter.com/aaronpk_es
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aaronpk kinda want to get that running again :)
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aaronpk seems like a great use of the "update" function in micropub, so the bots could update my original post with a new syndication link
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+953) "How to make a small h-card template" (view diff)
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gRegorLove This might help people when making the small h-card templates: https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:sparkline/doc#How_to_make_a_small_h-card_template
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gRegorLove I used the simplified version. The includeonly isn't strictly necessary.
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+2) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek those of you that upon posting automatically POSSE to Twitter and send webmentions, which do you do first? or do you spawn independent threads/processes for each?
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tantek hey welcome snarfed, perhaps you have an answer
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tantek aaronpk you as well
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aaronpk i have two answers
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aaronpk my legacy posting code (native to p3k, not micropub) first POSSEs to twitter, then sends webmentions
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aaronpk my new micropub flow sends webmentions first, then syndicates to indienews or bridgy publish, and lastly notifies my PuSH hub
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aaronpk that all happens in the background after the micropub request returns success to the micropub client
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tantek so your new micropub flow uses Bridgy Publish to POSSE to Twitter?
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tantek this is your micropub handler on your server, in p3k?
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tantek wondering if it matters, if we should prefer one over the other, and why.
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kylewm the nice reason to send webmentions after POSSE is that the webmention receiver will see your u-syndication links
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kylewm which can help with de-duplication
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tantek kylewm thank you - that's a good reason
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KartikPrabhu typical Google. I automatically have a Google photos account and all my photos/images have been imported
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KartikPrabhu wonders if privacy settings are also intact
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tantek all photos/images from *where* have been imported?
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KartikPrabhu sorry. From G+ photos
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gavinc well yeah, it's not so much a new service as the same service improved with less socialness
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KartikPrabhu so some of my photos have automatically travelled from Picasa Web Albums > G+photos > Google photos
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KartikPrabhu gavinc: I'll wait to claim "improved"
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gRegorLove tantek: I use Bridgy Publish, so I sent wementions to URLs in the note first, then the Bridgy Publish URL last.
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gRegorLove Good point, kylewm. I think in my ideal flow, wm would be sent ~5 minutes after publishing the note and cross-posting, in case I need to edit quickly.
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: would it not be better to have silo POSSE delayed then? Since wm's can be resent upon edit but silo copies sometimes can not be edited without deletion
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gRegorLove Yeah
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KartikPrabhu but kylewm's reasoning is also good
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kylewm delayed POSSE is probably good unless you're replying to someone
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kylewm and even then, it might be good :)
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gRegorLove Can still do delayed POSSE with delayed wm after that.
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tantek the order should not matter for de-duping
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tantek if you see the original first, you're done, if you see the POSSE copy first, you follow it's perma(short)cite/link back to the original
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KartikPrabhu tantek: the order matters since if you POSSE later then you will update the u-syndication unless every site is doing original-post-discovery
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