#indiewebcamp 2015-05-28

2015-05-28 UTC
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tantek
by people - posting on the web
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KevinMarks
it reminds me of the C vs Python debate
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tantek
not in apps
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tantek
so it's nice that their actions speak louder than their words
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kylewm
I'm actually a little surprised to hear you (tantek) disagree with that article.
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KartikPrabhu
bret: really amusing that people now build native apps using web tech by bundling in Chromium (a web browser) with it :P
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: what do you mean by "people seem to be convinced" ?
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bret
KartikPrabhu: beats writing boierplate objective c
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KevinMarks
I relaised that the facebook "8 seconds to the web" thing works the other way too
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bret
or *shudder* win32
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: My sample size of 2 :P was the two links above from subtraction.com and ben-evans.com
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KevinMarks
if you're on the web and click a facebook link you have to wait for the app switch and launch
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KartikPrabhu
bret: at that point one should ask "do you actually need a native app for this"
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KevinMarks
whereas if the facebook replies are there via webmention/bridgy/known etc you don't have to click at all
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bret
KartikPrabhu: if you want unhindered, offline access to the OS and hard apis, yes
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bret
hardware*
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bret
eg bluetoothe low energy
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bret
disk access
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bret
and things like the system tray variants and
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KartikPrabhu
disk access is mainly the only case I can think of being justified. But most "native apps" don't need it
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tantek
kylewm: why surprised? the article is littered with strawman arguments, false dichotomies (icon on your homescreen), etc.
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bret
KartikPrabhu: you are right a lot can be moved into the browser space
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tantek
bret - except apps rarely use any/all of those things
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KartikPrabhu
the only thing on my phone that actually needs disk access is my podcast app that downloads podcasts for offline listening. Even Feedly doesn't allow downloading post for offline reading so there...
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tantek
nearly all apps fail offline for example. so why bother with them?
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gRegorLove
Skimming that article... if your webapp is doing stuff to the scrollbar, well yeah, that's certain a problem. Use less JS!
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bret
tantek: /me likes system tray apps https://github.com/bcomnes/mooon
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gRegorLove
Not really an argument for using native instead
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bret
twitter client style micropub client in your tray? yes please
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: yeah that whole argument is very thin
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kylewm
tantek: I guess, high-level, it reminded me in some ways of js;dr and eric meyer's talk with the "the web is not a platform" slide
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tantek
anyway, I'll stand by this: So-called native apps are just ephemeral UX prototypes for what we're building to actually last on the web.
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KevinMarks
notifications are the part I use , yes
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tantek
document native apps / UI etc. as prototypes to consider
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tantek
and then rebuild them, better, for yourself, for others
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KevinMarks
Native apps are browsers that only work on one website
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KartikPrabhu
if a micropub app stored drafts offline I'd give it a pass on native
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bret
KartikPrabhu: would rather write that as an electron app then having to target Qt or some shit
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KartikPrabhu
a good one is the Google Maps app allows offline saving of maps
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bret
they have that?
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KartikPrabhu
i think so at least iin Android
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tantek
anyway, native vs web handwringing is a distraction
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bret
oh yeah google maps app can cache stuff, totally hidden feature
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KartikPrabhu
though I haven't tested what map/navigation features are supported
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KevinMarks
even more hidden now
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KartikPrabhu
but yes, apart from offline use nothing on any app at the moment needs "native" it is all glamour and gloss
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tantek
bret - there's a better app that gmaps for that - maps.me I think (recommended by dbaron - I need to get it) - you can pre-cache a whole city
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tantek
e.g. if you're traveling somewhere you don't expect to have any wifi/cell
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bret
cool tantek ill check it out
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tantek
yes there are cases where so-called native apps can provide actual functional feature advantages, but those are rare
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tantek
and worth studying, so we can grow the web platform accordingly
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bret
still waiting for a web based 'reader' that can reach the ui performance and fluidity of reeder.app... will happen someday
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kylewm
I wouldn't call it rare that people want to post photos, video, or audio
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tantek
kylewm: not the use-case, but the app
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: transcoding and compression are also good use-cases that I missed
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tantek
kylewm: I should have been more clear
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tantek
yes, photo and video taking / posting is a big one - but you don't need many apps for that.
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tantek
the rarity is the number of apps you actually need for such beyond-web-functionality.
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bret
I also want to see more http://demo.hyperboot.org/ style web apps. clients less beholden to the host
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: but you have to grant that if there is no transcoding/compression native in the browser (currently) then that use-case is solved by native apps or something?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: no. js based compression (nevermind crypto) etc. is quickly catching up
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KartikPrabhu
hmm I see
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kylewm
bret: http://demo.hyperboot.org/ is blank, and I don't have no-script!
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bret
oh gangster... much have a app.manifest copy running
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bret
must*
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tantek
functions that really need acceleration can be incorporated into WebAPIs as needed (as shown by profiling)
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bret
kylewm: try chrome?
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bret
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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kylewm
blank in chrome too!
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bret
weird
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kylewm
maybe it only works in OSX Chrome
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bret
your browser short circuits app.manifest and lets you run whatever version of the 'webapp' you prefer
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bret
i have all the copies saved. maybe that server is down
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KartikPrabhu
works on Linux Firefox for me
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bret
hrmm weird yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/
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kylewm
I get a js error "hash mismatch
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kylewm
" in both browsers
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tantek
anyway - this all seems fairly off topic (except for the bits about using "native" apps to post to your own site)
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gRegorLove
I see "my way cool app" in PC Firefox
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: that is actually why I brought it up. I'd love to have a micropub/reader that stores drafts/readlater posts for offline edits/reading
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snarfed
late to the party, and i'm sure i'll regret it…but "nearly all apps fail offline" is not at all true
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kylewm
also, opening the Twitter app on my phone feels much faster than loading Twitter.com or Woodwind in a browser
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snarfed
just as a data point, i'm a heavy phone user, and most of the apps i use most work *great* offline. it's a big reason why i use them. happy to enumerate them if anyone wants.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: offline webAPIs work "good enough" to build a micropub/reader that stores drafts / pre-caches posts to read.
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aaronpk
it takes >3s to even load the twitter app on my phone, not including fetching new tweets
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: mostly limited by localStorage space. I'd doubt having 5 podcasts offline will work
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bret
aaronpk: 5s?
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aaronpk
i know i'm not supposed to say this, but i had good luck with app manifest when i built the quill editor
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tantek
snarfed, as someone who operates in nearly always transient network availability (except home/work/cafes), for me, nearly all apps fail offline. And badly so.
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tantek
E.g. ALL Google iOS apps fail very badly offline.
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snarfed
tantek: great! i totally acknowledge and understand that that's your personal experience. it's definitely not universal though.
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tantek
haven't bothered to write-up a big rant blog post about that because there's too many positive blog posts in my queue to get to ;)
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tantek
snarfed, offline functionality is one of the biggest misconceptions / assumptions about "native" apps.
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aaronpk
there are definitely better tools for building a good offline experience in a native app though
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aaronpk
but certainly not all app developers take advantage of them
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tantek
most don't
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tantek
in my experience
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tantek
most native apps these days seem like cheap native wrappers around webviews, ergo, useless offline
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aaronpk
(btw google maps has a secret offline mode. zoom in to a map area you want to store, then type "ok maps" in the search bar)
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snarfed
tantek: "in my experience" is key there. my personal experience is totally different. i also have lots of offline/intermittent connectivity, and my heaviest used apps generally work great.
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bret
aaronpk: heritick! ;)
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snarfed
gmail, kindle, feed reader (newsblur), wordpress, podcast player, music player, photo viewer, google tasks, google docs (etc), asana, quip…all work *great* offline for me personally.
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bret
heretic*
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snarfed
anyway. debating different personal experiences is only marginally useful. i'll stop pushing
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tantek
snarfed - good to know!
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tantek
positive examples are useful
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aaronpk
don't forget Messages ;)
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snarfed
aaronpk: true!
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bret
im all for BAAOS
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bret
browser as an operating system
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snarfed
i wish i use *any* mobile webapps that worked well offline…but nope
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aaronpk
i'll add to that list: Google Calendar, Runkeeper, Wunderlist, Dropbox, and that doesn't include apps that are *primarily* offline apps with online sync functionality
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KevinMarks
the old google reader website worked better then the app in my experience
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bret
my understanding of native was mainly a performance issue... you can get closer to the metal on slow hardware (relative to a laptop/desktop) plus access to more hardware. obv thats not the case for most apps though
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snarfed
aaronpk: agreed. the "offline first, with sync" pattern seems to be more common among app developers who actually care
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snarfed
anyway. gotta run.
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bret
bye snarfed
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bret
me to bbl!
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aaronpk
i do hope the tools for building good offline experiences are made available to web apps soon though
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aaronpk
localstorage and app manifest have helped a ton already
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tantek
for me: Nike+ Running, Settings, Clock, Calculator, United, Notes, Starbucks, Passbook, Expensify, Photos, Camera, Music, Messages, iBooks, Authenticator, PicFrame, SkyGuide, and most games
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bret
seems like a pooly understood pattern in webdev.
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bret
internet connections are like oxygen
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tantek
bret most "native" apps do such a bad job with networking, as compared to what a browser has optimized, that they're often SLOWER than the website.
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tantek
nevermind time to launch (native apps tend to be slower to launch than a well written minimal webpage)
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bret
as you would when you offload rendering to a computer with a 750 Watt power supply ;)
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tantek
aaronpk, I'd agree that the tooling and offline APIs for webapps are not very good. They do exist and are *possible*.
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bret
s/computer/server
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Loqi
bret meant to say: as you would when you offload rendering to a server with a 750 Watt power supply ;)
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kylewm
tantek: do you use a bunch of web apps on your ipod?
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bret
i think we agree though
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tantek
kylewm: most of the time I'm using web on my iPod
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tantek
I tend to just call them "web sites" though
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bret
the twitter ios app tends to work better than the mobile web version, especially click targets.. a faster phone might help though
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kylewm
well i mean, like you listed the apps you use, so i'm wondering if there are more applications built on the web platforms that you use also
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tantek
yes Twitter has done a decent job (finally) with their iOS app
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tantek
they're definitely an exception
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tantek
they've also neglected their mobile site
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tantek
FB is the opposite. their mobile site is so much better than their iOS app
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tantek
kylewm: yes - everybody that has their own site :)
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bret
there was some video a while back comparting the (then) native version of the ios app and a slightly improved web app version
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bret
the web version blew away the native
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kylewm
isn't that what elicited Zuck's "we put too much faith in HTML5" (or something) comment
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tantek
ironically they did so well their iOS app team couldn't catch up
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bret
this video i was thinking of (maybe 2011? 2012? earlier) was for some framework
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bret
haha
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tantek
anyway, I like snarfed's positive examples - if you can use the to inspire what you build for your site, that's a good thing
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tantek
not sure what else is useful out of any of this debate
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aaronpk
i think my next exploration into offline is making teacup log things when offline
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tantek
that would be awesome
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tantek
offline checkins are one of my big itches
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aaronpk
mine too
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aaronpk
well, after checkins
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tantek
it's big enough that I'm not sure I want to bother with checkins unless I have it working offline
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tantek
Checkie is "good enough" to hold me over as it were
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tantek
Checkie + caching last 1000 places I've checked into and letting me checkin to them offline would be like the 99% case for me
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aaronpk
i wonder how many venues you can fit into a 5mb cache
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aaronpk
or, 4mb, leaving room for assets and the actual offline checkins
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aaronpk
i can't imagine a venue requiring more than 4000kb
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aaronpk
er, 4kb
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acegiak
benwerd: did you just get a webmention from me on http://werd.io/2015/kylewmahan-this-is-pretty-great-upside-now-i-have-a or has my webmention plugin broken with latest indiewebpost kinds?
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GWG
I broke it again?
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acegiak
GWG, not sure
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acegiak
first time I've indieweb replied
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acegiak
but I can never remember if benwerd autopublishes or if he has a moderation queue
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GWG
acegiak: I haven't in a while. But there is
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GWG
Indieaction
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GWG
acegiak: I should test it again
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GWG
acegiak: I do have some thoughts, if you have a moment.
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GWG
acegiak: How is Version 2.0 treating you so far?
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kylewm
acegiak: Known does not have a moderation queue
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kylewm
it would show up more or less right away if it worked
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kylewm
however, I don't think it shows plain mentions
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kylewm
so it might be a markup issue
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aaronpk
what other venues are confirmed for July 11-12?
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aaronpk
none others are listed on the wiki yet
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aaronpk
Vendan? GWG?
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm still working on a venue. But I'd like to do it
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GWG
!tell bear Can I count on you?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
acegiak: I guess I'd better test it myself.
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aaronpk
should get that nailed down soon! july is coming faster then you'd expect!
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GWG
aaronpk: You know anyone who has one?
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GWG
I don't have any money to pay for the ones that want money.
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GWG
acegiak: I'm going to send a reply from my test site to my main site
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aaronpk
i don't, sadly
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm having trouble. I've emailed the guy who hosted it last year and a few colleges. But I need to see if I can find a sponsor of some kind.
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aaronpk
i can help with sponsorship for food
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aaronpk
i am getting back to someone right now so if that goes through there will be enough for both locations
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GWG
aaronpk: I can do food. I need land.
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GWG
acegiak: It works.
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GWG
Look at the last one
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GWG
It could be because I was using p-in-reply-to instead of u
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acegiak
sorry, back
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Vendan
I'm not sure it's really a "venue", just a place to have a remote party, aaronpk
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Vendan
tbh, chances are decent that it's just going to be me there, and maybe one or 2 of the other hackerspace guys stopping in for part of it
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aaronpk
maybe add it to the /2015 page under "Remote Participation" or something then?
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tantek
benwerd's post really highlights that app ecosystems are much more "winner take all" style / amplifying - whereas on the web, drive-by usage of numerous websites is trivial
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tantek
the shape of how web sites / apps work and are discovered seems to encourage a more diverse experience and ecosystem - not sure how native ecosystems can compete with that in the long run (diversity is what helps things evolve more over time, not winner-take-all ecosystems. species diversity and all that)
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tantek
that being said, benwerd's personal experience with building Known as a mobile-friendly/ready web software/platform bring a lot of weight to his opinions
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acegiak
GWG: where does indieweb post kinds send webmention now?
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acegiak
in what class?
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GWG
kind_taxonomy
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GWG
The one that handles all the taxonomy work.
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KevinMarks__
Leo said he wants an app to make it easier to post audio and video to known
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aaronpk
that sounds like a great idea for a micropub client :D
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: mobilepub?
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KevinMarks__
Mobilepub is still web based - Leo was using it
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KevinMarks__
I was wondering if something like hyperlapse would work
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acegiak
GWG: if (is_multi_array($cites)) {
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acegiak
that's returning a false positive
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aaronpk
my main issue with video and audio recording is I want to at least be able to trim the beginning/end of the clips after recording, and that makes building the app way harder
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GWG
acegiak: Hmm...
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: aaronpk: there's no native editor?
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aaronpk
also I don't trust apps to not crash in the middle of recording video, so I mostly use the native iOS camera app to record, and then bring in the video to instagram or whatever later
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aaronpk
@snarfed: "native" as in native UI control that can be used in an app, or native as in pre-installed separate app?
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aaronpk
it looks like iOS Photos app can save a trimmed video as a new clip now. I think that's relatively new.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: for starters, the latter
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aaronpk
the voice memos app has a trim feature too! cool
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aaronpk
in that case, my preferred workflow would be to use the built-in apps to record and trim, and have a separate "micropub upload" app that can pick things from the photo library to upload
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GWG
acegiak: I guess I need to find a better multi-array function, you think?
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acegiak
GWG: nah, just flip it around
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GWG
How so?
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GWG
If it is a multi_array, it will iterate through, if not, it won't.
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acegiak
I'll test it out
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GWG
Okay. It seems to make sense though.
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acegiak
GWG: I'm seeing dozens of copies of people's author icons in my media library btw
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GWG
acegiak: Odd. Better fix that too.
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GWG
acegiak: I did implement a sideload. I guess I forgot a shutoff feature.
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GWG
I'm fixing that now.
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GWG
acegiak: Do you have the same author multiple times?
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GWG
acegiak: Pushed a setting to disable.
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tantek
totally agree with aaronpk re: native apps are too crashy to dependably do anything with media like video / audio
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tantek
I only use built-in (Apple written) apps for recording video/photos/audio on iOS
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tantek
all the native apps suck at it
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tantek
there's plenty of myths like that about what native apps are "good for"
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tantek
when in practice they're not
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aaronpk
the problem is they *can* be good (like apple's camera app) but it is not trivial to do so, so many of these apps end up being crashy
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aaronpk
and because they *can* be good, it's easy to assume all of them are good by lumping them all under the "native app" bucket
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KevinMarks
hyperlapse is good
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KartikPrabhu
are/aren't >> can/can be
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aaronpk
yes, hyperlapse is a great example of a well-written native video app
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aaronpk
hopefully the hyperlapse team at facebook can port some of that over to instagram. i've had instagram crash during video recording one too many times and never record directly there anymore
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tantek
same same
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tantek
heck it crashes even when trying to trim start/end
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aaronpk
also iOS app developers tend to assume everyone has the latest phone so the apps degrade on older devices over time as they push out updates
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aaronpk
i had instagram crash while adjusting the contrast of a *photo* yesterday... on the previous gen ipod touch
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tantek
that's another thing no one seems to admit to / talk about. "native" apps are so much more crashy than anything web.
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acegiak
GWG: Yeah, I have the same author often
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acegiak
cause I'm reblogging posts by people I follow
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GWG
The version in the Github repo now has an option to disable for now. I may remove and look into a cache.
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acegiak
is it also updated with that webmention fix?
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GWG
acegiak: I'm still confused about that one.
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GWG
It might be the multi-array function, but as I said, oddly enough it works for me.
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acegiak
GWG: my testing showed it was treating the strings as arrays?
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acegiak
and thus false positive?
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GWG
Okay.
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GWG
Let me figure out another way to test for a multi-array.
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@malcolmblaney
hoping to find time soon to work on #indieweb updates (and not post directly to silos like this) https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-05-28-PPK_writes_an_interesting_post_about_
(twitter.com/_/status/603775446724038657)
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GWG
acegiak: I changed the test. It now checks by comparing the array count to the recursive array count.
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acegiak
GWG: is that up on github?
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GWG
Yes
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GWG
See if it works for you.
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acegiak
will do
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GWG
acegiak: Any ideas for the future?
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kylewm
acegiak: I never got a wm from you as far as i could tell
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acegiak
kylewm: yeah, no it never got sent by the looks. that's the bug GWG and I are looking at
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GWG
If you try the change, and update the post, it should resend the mention if it worked.
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acegiak
reverting back to my fix cause it works :S
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GWG
Your fix was to disable support for non-multi-dimensional arrays, wasn't it?
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GWG
Which would break something else
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acegiak
what would it break?
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GWG
You were inverting the condition?
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acegiak
yeah. If it has the key "url" we treat it as non multidimensional and send the webmention. If it doesn't then we iterate through all the things in the array. If any of them has the key "url" we send out the webmention on that
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acegiak
I don't see what will break
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GWG
Then I missed the link to your solution.
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GWG
I must have misunderstood.
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acegiak
is all cool
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GWG
Think it makes sense to leave the error logging in?
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acegiak
prolly not
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acegiak
my code is littered with error_log lines cause I test in prod
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GWG
I meant commented out.
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acegiak
if you like
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GWG
Might be useful for a debug later. I may need to rewrite.
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GWG
If you look, I did a lot of trying to avoid hardcoding certain things.
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GWG
The change is going to wordpress.org as well.
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GWG
I think a few of my changes may still have mistakes.
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acegiak
GWG: you're doing an awesome job, dude. remember taht
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GWG
acegiak: I don't want to lose the momentum. I spent all of the weekend rewriting Post Kinds and Syndication Links.
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GWG
I'm on vacation starting next Wednesday for a week, and I'm loading up my computer with a dev environment to cover lack of net
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell gRegorLove I had started to try to update the templates, but never got very far
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rhiaro
I just searched for something to do with bridgy and one of the results was 'tantek likes bridgy publish' which is cool because when do like ever show up in search results? Only indielikes :D
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cweiske
is there already a indieweb comment hosting silo service?
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: what are the requirements?
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cweiske
oh, assume I have no website and still want to comment on a indiewebified article
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cweiske
so I log into my comment hosting silo, enter the URL I want to reply to and write my text
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KartikPrabhu
hmm possibly not then there is: https://webmention.io/
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cweiske
the comment webapp then sends out webmentions
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cweiske
and the commented page can display the comment then
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cweiske
webmention.io is for sites that want to display comments
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KartikPrabhu
at that point why not comment on a silo and let bridgy handle the rest?
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cweiske
I don't have a silo account
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KartikPrabhu
then why not comment from your site and send webmentions?
#
cweiske
my site doesn't have reply yet
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KartikPrabhu
it seems you are asking for an indieweb silo which seems like a paradox of some kind :P
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KartikPrabhu
might be wrong
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: what would such a thing do which is different from commet silos like Disqus?
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: to clarify not trying to be dismissive just want to know the usage :)
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cweiske
yes, I could simply install known
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cweiske
difference to disqus: it would be indieweb-friendly
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KartikPrabhu
what is indieweb friendly?
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cweiske
has microformats, sends webmentions, has URLs for single comments
petermolnar joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
should it support responses to your replies with webmention/backfeed?
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cweiske
that's part two
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cweiske
but as I said, I could simply install known
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KartikPrabhu
it seems to me that at that point it is a hosted (not self-hosted) site for you :)
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KartikPrabhu
for instance, one could say that you "replied to nothing" and that will be your own post ;)
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KartikPrabhu
leaves it open for others since he is being dismissive now :)
elf-pavlik, KevinMarks_, interactivist, evalica, gRegorLove, Sebastien-L, KartikPrabhu, fkooman, KevinMarks, stream7, nloadholtes and j12t joined the channel
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cweiske
that's what you get for self-hosting git
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cweiske
I'd suspect that those people are not able to use github.com and thus fall back to my server
j12t and kegan joined the channel
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kegan
hey, I would be interested in going to the meetup in Edinburgh in July. The site says I should be pinging Amy (rhiaro?)
lukebrooker, sammachin, tvn and Stephan__ joined the channel
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endi
KevinMarks: Yup it worked quite well :)
elf-pavlik and j12t joined the channel
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fkooman
ben_thatmustbeme, I tried https://ben.thatmustbe.me/new and it works with my own micropub service :)
almereyda, mlncn and j12t joined the channel
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fkooman
found interesting bug in php-fpm (fastcgi) where script_name also includes path_info... great stuff :P
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fkooman
of course only fixed in latest php not available on centos... :)
j12t joined the channel
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GWG
Good morning, world.
mlncn, tvn and fkooman joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
fkooman, great, glad to hear it worked
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GWG
If I wanted to work on mf2 parsing...how would I do that on an offline system? Download copies of random pages?
almereyda, Sebastien-L, j12t and Rev_Illo joined the channel
#
@BillSeitz
RT @kevinmarks: “Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet” - @marymeeker #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/603918414621474816)
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retout.co.uk
edited /IRC_People (+50) "/* Nicknames */ diocles"
(view diff)
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rhiaro
Hey kegan! You can sign up for IWC Edinburgh on the wiki if you have your own site you can sign in with. If not, I can add you to the list
squeakytoy and n8fr8 joined the channel
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kegan
thanks :)
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tantek
what is an indieweb comment hosting silo service?
nt0 joined the channel
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tantek
an indieweb comment hosting silo service is a /comment hosting /silo that is indieweb /friendly, that is at a minimum allows you to create and host /reply posts properly marked up with [[h-entry]] and [[in-reply-to]], and sends [[webmentions]] for them as well.
#
rhiaro
I changed my travel plans, now I need to implement update properly so I can update /travel
#
rhiaro
#indiewebproblems
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
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tantek
rhiaro: :) - what was the bridgy thing you were searching for that you found a like?
#
rhiaro
I was just looking for bridgy publish cos I needed to retweet something and couldn't remember the exact URL and Firefox on my phone doesn't manage to sync my history apparently
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
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rhiaro
I need to automate posseing likes and reposts to twitter
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rhiaro
It's like two lines of code I should really just do it
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tantek
haha just found it - that's hilarious - I was liking one of kylewm's posts
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rhiaro
It's awesome that small interactions become searchable
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tantek
yes! I totally recommend it - have been very happy with automating my likes of tweets POSSEing to Twitter via Bridgy Publish
#
tantek
rhiaro: true! that's something I had not anticipated / expected
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tantek
also provides another (like we need more) advantage for making everything a post
#
tantek
searchability of "activities" - works automatically if you just make them posts with good fallback plain text design. presto.
#
tantek
plaintextdesign++
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Loqi
plaintextdesign has 1 karma
j12t joined the channel
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rhiaro
Yuuuup
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tantek
amazing what you learn when you actually build and deploy and use stuff live on your own site. :P sometimes weeks, months later after doing so. :)
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rhiaro
Okay, I need to stop being sideways and do something useful. I had a lovely 18 mile hike today, but all I could think about was stuff I want to do to my site
KartikPrabhu and shiflett joined the channel
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kylewm
!tell cweiske is this like the comment-hosting service you were talking about? http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service (+120) "withknown works also"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell cweiske what about creating an account on withknown.com just for writing comments/replies? More here, feel free to expand with what you're looking for: https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
chalettu, KevinMarks_, LanceyWork, almereyda, j12t, KevinMarks__, nloadholtes, wolftune, ben_thatmustbeme, gRegorLove, loic_m and afrogeek joined the channel
#
aaronpk
today in silo wtf... google's search summary of the i/o site... http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/google-io-20150528-093951.png
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KevinMarks
also, the vidoe is well hiden
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KevinMarks
their website failed to notify me or link to this live video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V-fIGMDsmE
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KevinMarks
hm google talking about webview
#
KevinMarks
Chrome cutom webviews
#
KevinMarks
chroem custom tabs rather
snarfed and tvn joined the channel
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KevinMarks
google fit claims to recognise squats, situps and pushups directly
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bret
google io is talking schemas, run for cover
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KevinMarks
i missed the schemas bit
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KevinMarks
I have noticed the speech accuracy is really good now
friedcell, wolftune and eschnou joined the channel
#
Loqi
bear: GWG left you a message on 5/27 at 6:26pm: Can I count on you? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432776403523
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bear
!tell GWG yes - just confirmed with work that I will be able to attend (hotel, travel) and also that they will sponsor the event
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear
yes, i'm very excited
tilgovi and indie-visitor joined the channel
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
davidpeach joined the channel
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davidpeach
hallo people
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davidpeach
long time no speak
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davidpeach
Do any of you use Google Play music : all access for streaming music?
eschnou joined the channel
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GWG
bear: I am here now
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Loqi
GWG: bear left you a message 14 minutes ago: yes - just confirmed with work that I will be able to attend (hotel, travel) and also that they will sponsor the event http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432836013155
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GWG
bear, any ideas on venues? I am having trouble finding one
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GWG
davidpeach: Long time no see
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davidpeach
how are you?
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bear
GWG - I am reaching out to some friends who do meetups in NY to find out what spaces are available
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davidpeach
Ive built a little piece of functionality on my site, which I was going to extract into a microservice. I just wanted to gauge interest out there in it.
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bear
goes to lunch
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snarfed
almost 2h into the google io keynote and not a single mention of G+ yet :) :( X{
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davidpeach
It's kind of a PESOS app for pulling in albums you listen to on google play music streaming - via a bookmarklet
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davidpeach
you can see example of data pulled on my site footer - http://davidpea.ch
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GWG
bear, I'll organize as much as possible
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GWG
davidpeach: I released a beta location plug in.
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bear
i'm reaching out to friends to find out possible spots - i'll let you know what I find
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bear
gwg - I've got confirmation for our company to sponsor lunch
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bear
really goes to lunch now
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davidpeach
GWG : nice. Alas I no longer use WordPress for my website
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davidpeach
but great job on it
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GWG
davidpeach: I am always looking for people to give feedback, which is why I asked
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davidpeach
GWG: cool. ill take a look
friedcell joined the channel
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GWG
I want to improve it to attract new Indieweb people
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GWG
By the way, I download my music, so can't help
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mattl
tangent: my indie movie has 12 hours left on indiegogo. and our website is self hosted wordpress (soon to move to known pro) -- http://igg.me/at/orangu
KartikPrabhu and tsyesika joined the channel
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davidpeach
ANy others out there use Google play music all access ?
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endi
davidpeach: I do
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davidpeach
endi: hi
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davidpeach
endi: have you seen my previous chat notes about what ive made?
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endi
I just scrolled up and read you've integrated Album pulls?
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endi
but not prior to those few lines
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@skierpage
@openid Your http://openid.net/get-an-openid/ page says "use a service provider like Janrain". Uh, no, they died. https://indieauth.com/ instead?
(twitter.com/_/status/604001549967204352)
#
endi
Did anyone catch anything about Desltop Apps for the new Photos service? Or does the upload/sync funtionality of Google Drive take on the photo uploading?
#
endi
s/Desltop/Desktop
#
Loqi
endi meant to say: Did anyone catch anything about Desktop Apps for the new Photos service? Or does the upload/sync funtionality of Google Drive take on the photo uploading?
#
tantek
endi - good question - are you wondering about trying to do so with your personal site?
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davidpeach
endi: yer so when i listen to an album on the app, I click share and have a bookmarklet app that lets me share to a url endpoint. It points to a route on my site and then my site scrapes the content of that album page to get artist, album, image src and basic album info.
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endi
well, I'm wondering how they're planning on structuring it. I often take large numbers of photos for family events and distributing those isn't always the easiest. I send out links to Flickr Albums but people don't know how to download/print/share further
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davidpeach
endi: was tricky cuz some bits - like the album art - are loaded withjavascript, so had to use phantomjs for that to work.
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davidpeach
endi: you can see the end result on my site footer : http:davidpea.ch
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endi
so I'm wondering if we can incorporate the service to create sort of like albums built into our sites
#
endi
davidpeach: I'll take a look
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endi
davidpeach: oh nice I like that.
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davidpeach
id like to build it up over time. as they dont actually offer an api
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davidpeach
thanks endi
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davidpeach
endi: would you use a service like that?
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endi
I've had this idea that I want to have a page of a personal site for example endi.com/hang-out in which there'd be something like that, an IRC webUI etc
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davidpeach
endi: free ofc
#
endi
the idea would be to parallel people dropping by to 'hang out' as they would drop by in a dorm or other community parallel
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gRegorLove
jQuery and jQuery UI can be so fragile. Updated a WordPress install, which updated the included jQuery version of course, and broke plugins that used older versions of jQuery UI.
#
Loqi
gRegorLove: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 5/27 at 10:31pm: I had started to try to update the templates, but never got very far http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432791103948
#
gRegorLove
Apparently the jQuery and jQuery UI versions have to be in sync or problems can arise.
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aaronpk
programming is hard
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endi
davidpeach: so that type of display might be interesting for that type of page
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gRegorLove
aaronpk: Let's go shopping
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ben_thatmustbeme
gRegorLove: yes they do
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davidpeach
endi: how do you mean?
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tantek
endi - go ahead and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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endi
davidpeach: I would perhaps use that type of 'status' element in a page such as the one I described above
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davidpeach
endi: oh okay cool. Ill pop a link up on my wiki user page as soon as Ive got it working. Its working on own site - just got to gut it into a likkle microservice. Good excuse for me to use Lumen too!
#
endi
davidpeach: cool let me know I can certainly help test as well :)
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gRegorLove
Hah. Now the lightbox JS on this site is incorrectly calculating the jQuery version v1.11 as being less than v1.3
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davidpeach
endi: awesome thanks. Ive been trying to think of a way to contribute something to indieweb.
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tantek
versionnumbers--
#
Loqi
versionnumbers has -1 karma
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gRegorLove
Poor javascript maths
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aaronpk
counting is hard
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KevinMarks
that's almost as funny as them having to skip windows 9
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endi
I ran into the w/ TrueCrypt on Mac OS X 10.10 :( 10.10 < 10.4 or whatever and it wouldn't run the installer lol
#
endi
s/the/that
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Loqi
endi meant to say: I ran into that w/ TrueCrypt on Mac OS X 10.10 :( 10.10 < 10.4 or whatever and it wouldn't run that installer lol
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KartikPrabhu
but 1.11 < 1.3
#
KartikPrabhu
if you are going to use numbers then follow the rules damnnit!
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gRegorLove
::mumbles:: you're < 1.3...
KevinMarks__ and cweiske joined the channel
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tantek
welcome back cweiske!
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Loqi
cweiske: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 32 minutes ago: is this like the comment-hosting service you were talking about? http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432825670004
#
Loqi
cweiske: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 28 minutes ago: what about creating an account on withknown.com just for writing comments/replies? More here, feel free to expand with what you're looking for: https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb_comment_hosting_silo_service http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432825892734
#
social.andrejstefanovski.com
edited /IRC_People (+151) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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tantek
ooh social. - hadn't seen someone use that subdomain before
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cweiske
I did when I had diaspora running
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cweiske
4 years ago
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endi
yeah when I started I made it known.andrejstefanovski.com and then I thought why not social since these are posts I want to POSSE to social sites
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tantek
makes sense
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endi
and now I have the cert so it's not changing :p
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aaronpk
when wordpress first came out were people setting up wordpress.example.com?
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tantek
no wildcard cert?
#
tantek
aaronpk: yes
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endi
heh no my cert was 6$ :p
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cweiske
who can create accounts on that http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/ tool?
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aaronpk
that gives me an idea
#
loqi.me
created /marchitecture (+388) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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endi
I will definitely try using the new Google Photos to share albums on my sites
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endi
So great that they won't force G+ login to view
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+127) "line breaks, see also"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is Google Photos?
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loqi.me
created /marketecture (+26) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+145) "more subheads, show dilbert inline"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /lulz (+20) "another"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+74) "img dilbert"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /architecture (+333) "stub"
(view diff)
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kylewm
cweiske: I thought Replier used to be indieauth based, surprised it's username/password now
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@davatron5000
Good thing Google doesn't have a history of shutting down products n' stuff.
(twitter.com/_/status/603982003772395520)
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@andyguzman
@davatron5000 "Sunsetting", Dave. Google would never just shut something down.
(twitter.com/_/status/603990751475716096)
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kylewm
cweiske: can you use huffduff-video to download youtube vids outside germany?
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cweiske
kylewm, thanks. didn't know that
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kylewm
oops, sorry that was supposed to be off-topic
eschnou joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+236) "add 2008 Social Web Open Stack h/t kevinmarks, update dfn to include jargon, political reasons"
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+145) "/* Examples */ they made a tshirt. SMH"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /marchitecture (+140) "/* Examples */ 2009 The Blimp. I don't even."
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
Davidpeach I use Google play music
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KevinMarks__
Though not that often tbh, I'm more likely to listen to podcasts
j12t joined the channel
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davidpeach
Hi KevinMarks. cool. Ive built a way to pull in album data for currently listing to albums (by way of a bookmarklet) as a way to PESOS my albums I listen as well as log the dates and play counts. Bit hacky as they dont have an api
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tantek
What is Google Play Music?
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davidpeach
hi tantek
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davidpeach
Ill create it yer cool
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davidpeach
its a streaming music service
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davidpeach
like spotify
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davidpeach
but allows you to upload 50,000 of yopur own songs and it blends them into one big mega library
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KevinMarks__
Google play music is a service that stores your song files on Google servers and plays them back over the web. It also has a subscription model for big label music.
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loqi.me
created /Google_play_music (+191) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-28/line/1432845993140 and dfn added by KevinMarks__"
(view diff)
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davidpeach
im gonna try and build it out as a little micrtoservice so anyone can use it
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tantek
aaronpk why "drink" Coffee, vs. (icon) Cocktail? (looking at your "all")
#
tantek
oh n.m. the coffee icon didn't load and its alt text is "drink" :P
#
tantek
bad alt text. no biscuit.
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aaronpk
well that worked swimmingly :)
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tantek.com
edited /Google_Play_Music (+67) "- extra top heading, +stub, add dfn, fix [] markup, more subheads, see also, linky"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Google (+41) "other services: play music"
(view diff)
interactivist, friedcell and dariusdunlap joined the channel
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KevinMarks__
Google play music is also a good way to back up your music collection, as you can download it all again
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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tantek
KevinMarks__: but do you get back what you upload? or the "generic" version that they've "de-duped" your uploads to?
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davidpeach
is it ethically wrong to try and build a tool to scan google play for my album history and pull data into website?
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tantek
IMO (IANAL) quite the opposite, you have moral rights to all your "activities"
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tantek
and to keep/make backups/copies of them
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davidpeach
Yer. Id like to give it a go. It's probably the top thing I'd like to track.
#
tantek
what is a listen?
#
Loqi
A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track, including concert recordings or DJ sets etc.) that you have listened to https://indiewebcamp.com/listen
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davidpeach
plus it'd make one heck of a side project
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tantek
davidpeach - add it to your itches! http://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying
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kylewm
tantek: when I tried it, they gave me back the verison I uploaded... I was actually sorta hoping it would be an easy way to improve the bitrates of my mp3s
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tantek
maybe they're saving enough from exact copy de-duping that it works for them
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davidpea.ch
edited /User:Davidpea.ch (+341) "Updated my user page. Added Itches and working on"
(view diff)
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tantek
perhaps it's a hidden proof of the practicality of content addressing at least for music files on a massive scale
#
tantek
davidpeach, where are you based? is there a /HWC near you?
#
davidpeach
tantek: Im based near Birmingham, UK. In tamworth.
#
tantek
would IWC /2015 in Brighton July 11-12 be a possibility for you?
#
davidpeach
tantek: Could be depending on train costs. Would be nice
#
tantek
davidpeach: add yourself and any explanatory text you like to the Brighton sublist here: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015#Candidate_Cities
#
tantek
and if you'd like to help co-organize, ping adactio here (!tell adactio) and put a little "o " in front of your name in that list
#
tantek
bear, context?
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bear
I just ran across the link and wanted to post it - discovering context now to be honest
#
bear
it's a new site/service from google
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bear
it's like indieauth for google accounts - heck, it looks like google signin could be added to indieauth
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davidpeach
tantek: is it normally an all-night thing? just pricing up accomodation
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davidpea.ch
edited /2015 (+76) "/* Candidate Cities */"
(view diff)
#
davidpea.ch
edited /2015 (-1) "/* Candidate Cities */"
(view diff)
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davidpeach
my page isn't coming up in the list of candiadates
#
tantek
bear, every year at I/O I believe Google rolls out a different identity strategy for developers
#
tantek
someone really should be keeping track of that
#
tantek
in terms of use OpenID, or Google Profiles, or Buzz, or Google Connect, or G+ or ...
#
bear
nods
#
tantek
they really have an identity identity problem
#
davidpea.ch
edited /2015 (+71) "/* Candidate Cities */"
(view diff)
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tantek
almost davidpeach - you were supposed to create /Template:davidpeach :)
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KartikPrabhu
Did Google do a Orkut id for devs :P
#
davidpeach
tantek: i got confused - I added {{davidpeach}} and it came up as page not existing. other people's seem to link to user page but alas, mine did not
#
tantek
you need to click on it and create it
#
KartikPrabhu
davidpeach: you can see how mine is http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:kartik
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KartikPrabhu
and copy pasta
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davidpea.ch
edited /2015 (-71) "/* Candidate Cities */"
(view diff)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu++ a good approach in general
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 94 karma
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davidpea.ch
created /Template:davidpeach (+86) "Created page with "This template displays a small h-card for <a href='/User:Davidpea.ch'>David Peach</a>.""
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove++ for making my template :P
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 4 karma
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KartikPrabhu
davidpeach: try to edit mine and see the include only code that has h-card stuff in it.
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gRegorLove
Wait, that's not the full thing. Nvm
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KartikPrabhu
davidpeach: I am on your template. I can add an avatar if you'd like?
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KartikPrabhu
that ^ worked
#
KartikPrabhu
this MediaWiki template stuff is not intuitive at all!
KevinMarks joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
I had such a hard time too
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davidpeach
thanks for the help
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davidpeach
right, its bed time for me
#
davidpeach
good night all. take care
#
Loqi
goodnight!
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gRegorLove
I think I could make a template like sparkline that takes the name, domain name, and a photo URL and generates it more easily, not having to mess with includeonly stuff.
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gRegorLove
templates-in-templates, wee
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KartikPrabhu
ha! templates to make templates :P
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KartikPrabhu
damn! 7 seconds
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aaronpk
oh man I forgot about my multilingual twitter bots
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aaronpk
but i've been getting twitter spam emails from them now
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aaronpk
kinda want to get that running again :)
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aaronpk
seems like a great use of the "update" function in micropub, so the bots could update my original post with a new syndication link
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+953) "How to make a small h-card template"
(view diff)
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gRegorLove
This might help people when making the small h-card templates: https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:sparkline/doc#How_to_make_a_small_h-card_template
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gRegorLove
I used the simplified version. The includeonly isn't strictly necessary.
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:sparkline/doc (+2) "/* Examples */"
(view diff)
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tantek
those of you that upon posting automatically POSSE to Twitter and send webmentions, which do you do first? or do you spawn independent threads/processes for each?
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tantek
hey welcome snarfed, perhaps you have an answer
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tantek
aaronpk you as well
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aaronpk
i have two answers
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aaronpk
my legacy posting code (native to p3k, not micropub) first POSSEs to twitter, then sends webmentions
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aaronpk
my new micropub flow sends webmentions first, then syndicates to indienews or bridgy publish, and lastly notifies my PuSH hub
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aaronpk
that all happens in the background after the micropub request returns success to the micropub client
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tantek
so your new micropub flow uses Bridgy Publish to POSSE to Twitter?
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tantek
this is your micropub handler on your server, in p3k?
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tantek
wondering if it matters, if we should prefer one over the other, and why.
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kylewm
the nice reason to send webmentions after POSSE is that the webmention receiver will see your u-syndication links
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kylewm
which can help with de-duplication
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tantek
kylewm thank you - that's a good reason
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KartikPrabhu
typical Google. I automatically have a Google photos account and all my photos/images have been imported
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KartikPrabhu
wonders if privacy settings are also intact
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tantek
all photos/images from *where* have been imported?
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KartikPrabhu
sorry. From G+ photos
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gavinc
well yeah, it's not so much a new service as the same service improved with less socialness
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KartikPrabhu
so some of my photos have automatically travelled from Picasa Web Albums > G+photos > Google photos
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KartikPrabhu
gavinc: I'll wait to claim "improved"
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gRegorLove
tantek: I use Bridgy Publish, so I sent wementions to URLs in the note first, then the Bridgy Publish URL last.
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gRegorLove
Good point, kylewm. I think in my ideal flow, wm would be sent ~5 minutes after publishing the note and cross-posting, in case I need to edit quickly.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: would it not be better to have silo POSSE delayed then? Since wm's can be resent upon edit but silo copies sometimes can not be edited without deletion
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KartikPrabhu
but kylewm's reasoning is also good
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kylewm
delayed POSSE is probably good unless you're replying to someone
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kylewm
and even then, it might be good :)
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gRegorLove
Can still do delayed POSSE with delayed wm after that.
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tantek
the order should not matter for de-duping
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tantek
if you see the original first, you're done, if you see the POSSE copy first, you follow it's perma(short)cite/link back to the original
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: the order matters since if you POSSE later then you will update the u-syndication unless every site is doing original-post-discovery
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