#indiewebcamp 2015-05-29

2015-05-29 UTC
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tantek KartikPrabhu: why would checking original-post-discovery be any different than checking u-syndication ?
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kylewm well many people don't include perma(short)cite/links in their tweets, not to mention indie-reposts or indie-likes where it isn't possible
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KartikPrabhu tantek: checking u-syndication is easier since you have permalink of the post that webmentioned and get mf2 from that. For original-post-discovery there is a long-ish non-trivial algorithm to follow
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tantek ok
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KartikPrabhu specially if no permalinks on POSSE copy
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tantek ah, assuming you can't follow your nose in those cases
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KartikPrabhu yes. of course one can do it manually
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tantek Ok I have a hypothetical reason - untested - which comes to the same conclusion as you KartikPrabhu re: having the u-syndication already there when a webmention receiver retrieves the original: POSSE reply threading
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KartikPrabhu also that ^
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KartikPrabhu particularly if for some reason Bridgy backfeed hasn't yet sent the backfeed
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KartikPrabhu you can still use u-syndication to POSSE a reply to a reply
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tantek when indie A replies to indie B and sends B a webmention, when B goes to reply to A, if B's copy of A's post already knows the Ap POSSE copy, then B can immediately reply back both to A, and POSSE reply thread their Bp POSSE copy to Ap.
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gRegorLove kylewm has done that on some replies, I've noticed.
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tantek it makes it easier to do the right thing, and connect all the replies
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KartikPrabhu should work on dedup stuff
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tantek and yes KartikPrabhu it should make de-duping easier since u-syndication is easier to retrieve than it is to do original-post-discovery
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KartikPrabhu :)
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tantek now where to capture this FAQ with answer with 2 solid reasons
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tantek /webmention#FAQ?
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KartikPrabhu possibly and link to it from POSSE or some page that has this deduping of comments
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+189) "move rel webmention from brainstorming to resolved, id up near discovery, webmention as one of many space separated values" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] Chris Aldrich commented 'I like what you've done with the final product and have always thought about doing something similar myself, particularly after I saw what M...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/i-like-what-youve-done-with-the-final-product-and)
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+1148) "/* How does this solve the spam problem */ note vouch. POSSE or webmention first? Thanks to kylewm and kartikprabhu for reasons." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+229) "/* FAQ */ POSSE or Send Webmentions First - summary answer an link to longer answer on webmentions page" (view diff)
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tantek nice post: http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/i-like-what-youve-done-with-the-final-product-and - in particular: "some of their infrastructure allows one to easily make posts on one's own page which then act as replies on another's site. This is particularly interesting from the viewpoint of teaching wherein students and professors can interact with each other, but still have/own all of their individual work."
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tantek he's using Known at stream. and then WordPress with indieweb plugins and Bridgy at his main site, e.g. http://boffosocko.com/2015/05/21/category-theory-anyone/ which pulls in replies to the POSSE copy of that post G+!
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GWG tantek: That is the guy who was watching my development, I think
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@davidmead I get that @bradcolbow :-) As I'm a believer in #indieweb, I publish my tweets, bookmarks, etc. on my blog then .. http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2015/i-get-that-bradcolbow---as-im-a-believer-in (twitter.com/_/status/604095187963392001)
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kylewm permalink angst https://twitter.com/bradcolbow/status/604091541204946944
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@bradcolbow @davidmead Dangit David! stop putting links in your tweets, it's driving me crazy ;) (twitter.com/_/status/604091541204946944)
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tantek and I was going to say - indieweb defiance: http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2015/i-get-that-bradcolbow---as-im-a-believer-in
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kylewm :D
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KartikPrabhu hence I don't think one should put permalinks unless the POSSE copy is truncated. Even then some words like "more at:" would be better
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I believe that's pretty close to current recommended practice
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KartikPrabhu oh ok good :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in particular this https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Why_permashortcitation_instead_of_a_link
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tantek and then https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_abbr_note_to_twitter
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KartikPrabhu on that note, you have yourself experienced people being confused about the strange link like letters at the end of a tweet no?
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tantek yes, a few
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KartikPrabhu PSC is not yet a recognized pattern I think
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tantek it's not that, but rather that it still looks too much like a link and people wonder why it's not clickable
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tantek instead of wondering why when they click it they see no new content
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KartikPrabhu hmm yeah that
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+587) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ include kartikprabhu's suggestion about More: along with some implications of attempting that approach" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: ok I captured your "More (at):" suggestion as it seems reasonable
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tantek added to https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_abbr_note_to_twitter
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KartikPrabhu cool. also good point about "more shortening to accomodate words"
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tantek are you thinking of implementing it?
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KartikPrabhu I still manually POSSE with "more: <link>" when shortening is needed
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KartikPrabhu else I use Bridgy Publish
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KartikPrabhu eg: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/594636445064830977
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@kartik_prabhu user story by @TomMorris at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02#t1430606718931 “Alice is browsing Bobs social profile on the web and […] more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/user-story-tommorris (twitter.com/_/status/594636445064830977)
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tantek was that a manual POSSE tweet or via Bridgy Publish?
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KartikPrabhu manual
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/590905701276332032 is bridgy publish shortening
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@kartik_prabhu #indieweb #longweb With all of our collective digital memories living on the ephemeral… (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/ephemeral-web-memories) https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/590905701276332032/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/590905701276332032)
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KartikPrabhu since when did Twitter start putting "descriptions" for "Trends"
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KartikPrabhu very annoying and cluttering the Twitter page
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's very odd - you're POSSEing a like kind of like a quote?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+260) "/* POSSE abbr note to twitter */ note KartikPrabhu's like example that has a quotation, and then he POSSEd manually as a note to Twitter" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: KartikPrabhu out of curiosity, would you use bridgy publish for your current manual posses if you could customize the ellipsizing and link text?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: err yes. didn't know how else to do it since there is no Twitter copy
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I use Bridgy Publish for most cases, except when heavy editing of the text is needed to make it read nicer on Twitter
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tantek KartikPrabhu: well it's odd that you're liking and quoting at the same time
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tantek you've almost written your own note post there - since the actual quote is not continuous in the IRC channel archive you link to
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KartikPrabhu true. I also add my own text to likes sometimes to keep note of why I like it
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that sounds more like a bookmark
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tantek in other js;dr news: https://twitter.com/michaeldexter/status/603753654349357056
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@michaeldexter Congratulations http://fortune.com for providing zero content if JavaScript is blocked. 22 Scripts! (twitter.com/_/status/603753654349357056)
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tantek also: https://twitter.com/michaeldexter/status/603754634440740865
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@michaeldexter @michaeldexter Pegged my CPU too! Way to go! (twitter.com/_/status/603754634440740865)
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GWG That reminders me. I keep thinking about learning Javascript
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tantek so much "Popular in your network" :( :( :(
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tantek popularinyournetwork--
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Loqi popularinyournetwork has -2 karma
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tantek email so f'ing depressing. it's like 90% growth hacking bullshit *after* you wade through the random unicode spam.
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@TheWritingGeek Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/604115003218776064)
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@Inkwater_Masha Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/604115003017412608)
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tantek.com edited /Webmention (+105) "/* POSSE or Send Webmentions First */ add citation to IRC discussion for conclusions" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: perhaps not quite as productive a wiki day as yesterday, yet answering that FAQ I think is useful for helping implementations that do POSSE & send webmentions
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@MatthewDiIulio Posting to Twitter form #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/604140148675198976)
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GWG You know, I still don't feel I have POSSE down.
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tantek GWG, it's taken a while and many iterations to get to where we are with understanding good POSSE practices
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tantek if you can formulate a specific question, perhaps we can clarify further
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GWG I feel, like many things, I have not made it as easy as I can.
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GWG My biggest problems come from trying to make things simpler and easier.
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tantek yes, POSSEing should be completely automatic for the author
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GWG For me, it has been an issue.
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GWG I keep punting switching to Bridgy Publish down the road.
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GWG Because to test it well, I feel like I'd be spamming my acount
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GWG I also always had trouble POSSEing to Twitter
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snarfed GWG: make a separate twitter acct for testing?
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snarfed e.g. https://twitter.com/snarfed_org
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tantek GWG, definitely setup a test Twitter account, e.g. gwg_test
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tantek and then just use that until you're happy with the results
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tantek you can even make it private so that you don't spam search results (AKA Loqi searches :) )
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Loqi woot!
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GWG They still have private accounts? Good to know.
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GWG I haven't looked in a while.
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GWG But, either way, we'll see what I can do over the course of the summer.
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GWG To get Bridgy Publish working, I need to fix my theme, because Bridgy Publish was picking it up incorrectly. Which means I'm marking up incorrectly.
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tantek GWG - go get your private test account - that's an easy thing you can take care of in a few minutes
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tantek then work on harder stuff :)
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GWG tantek: Such as?
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GWG Harder as in?
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tantek GWG, harder as in fixing the markup in your theme
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GWG tantek: I've fixed a lot in the unstyled version.
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GWG I have to double check then restyle.
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tantek GWG, right, that's more work than creating a new private twitter account :)
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GWG Right now, I have to finish getting the dev setup on the computer I'm bringing on the plane next Wednesday finishd.
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GWG But, either way, I will set one up.
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acegiak So here's an interesting observation: Since I've started consciously making an effort to take and post selfies occasionally people reply to those posts with compliments. The ability to "like" that reply post is a really nice subtle way of sayinga polite "thanks" without having to up it into a foofaraw of an actual third reply post
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davidpeach hey y'all
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@melkeramik Please disregard this post. It's a test. http://melkeramik.com/uncategorized/indieweb-webmentions-test http://melkeramik.com/uncategorized/indieweb-webmentions-test (twitter.com/_/status/604213740955918336)
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@melkeramik Indieweb Webmentions test http://melkeramik.com/uncategorized/indieweb-webmentions-test https://twitter.com/melkeramik/status/604213753542914048/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/604213753542914048)
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@sipgateUK RT @btconf: Group photo of the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf in Düsseldorf. https://twitter.com/btconf/status/600591662813941760/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/604243807056596992)
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GWG Good morning all
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frzn good morning, GWG
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LanceyWork morning!
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petermolnar good morning
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rhiaro waves
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GWG I'm trying to pick a fun name for a Twitter test account.
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petermolnar http://www.behindthename.com/random/
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GWG I want to fix my Twitter POSSE without spamming.
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GWG And develop ny long delayed Bridgy for WordPress plug in
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rhiaro I'd just spam twitter and delete them afterwards, but I don't care about my followers ;)
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petermolnar or you just want to make phones buzz :)
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rhiaro if people are getting notifications for individual tweets, they deserve it
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rhiaro who has that??
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adactio.com created /2015/Brighton (+1290) "New page for Indie Web Camp Brighton 2015" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /Events (+371) "/* Upcoming */ Add Brighton event" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /Main_Page () "(-603) /* IndieWebCamp */ Add Brighton event" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /2015/ (+35) "Add Brighton event" (view diff)
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davidpea.ch edited /2015/Brighton (+16) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Brighton (+13) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@deewu Oh #indieweb site, you don't need to start explaining why I should try stuff with a Matrix quote. You really don't. (twitter.com/_/status/604281698533150720)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+477) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@deewu It's so self-congratulatory. Lookit you, leaving the walled gardens and content silos! You see the light and goodness of the #indieweb! (twitter.com/_/status/604282724304732160)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+401) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] Alexis Kraland posted 'Indie Web: vers le contrôle de nos données personnelles sur les réseaux sociaux? 9 min r...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (http://akraland.eu/2015/indie-web-vers-le-contrle-de-nos-donnes-personnelles-sur)
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davidpea.ch edited /2015/Brighton (+59) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@schnarfed @deewu agreed, cost is definitely a factor! just fyi though, a free hosted subdomain can still be indieweb. e.g. https://withknown.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/604286988926103553)
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tommorris "C'est á Portland, repère de hipsters américains au Nord-Ouest des Etat-Unis que le projet Indie Web naît en 2011." bwahaha.
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Loqi tommorris: KartikPrabhu left you a message 3 days, 10 hours ago: it seems my security level has gone down to B because of the whole logjam thing. But I don't understand if that is my erroe, my cert providers error or the hosting companies error! The resolution is so un-understandable! ref: https://weakdh.org/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432612996420
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: hey, it's nobody's error - you can generate new DH keypairs from the certificate.
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Guest99613 yeah I just went through generating new moduli files on every machine I SSH into. it was less than ideal.
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Guest99613 err
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Guest99613 wel, it won't let me change nick. I'll restart this client. - endi
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endi_ strange the server bugs out and I go into reconnect loop if I try to use 'endi' as nick
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@deewu @schnarfed I'm still making my way through the indiewebcamp site/wiki though. A lot of links/info to process. (twitter.com/_/status/604292975619919872)
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bear the logjam issue is solvable by generating a dhparam file that is > 1024 bits and having your web server use it
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kylewm iirc KartikPrabhu is on Django-specific PaaS hosting?
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kylewm (so it might actually be their fault ;)
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bear it's whoever is in charge of the web server (nginx/apache)
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bear apps or proxied apps have no control over it (well, unless they are doing the ssl termination)
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aaronpk tantek: here is a possible Micropub JSON that would create the "edit" post in that example from the other day... what do you think? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/615ab9ae11ae7be25fea
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@deewu Fun Discovery #1: I think any tweet with the indieweb hashtag goes to their IRC channel. (twitter.com/_/status/604343805047885824)
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benwerd Uh oh
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aaronpk uhoh?
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bret :+1
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tantek why uh oh?
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tantek aaronpk - interesting - does that update mean the entire photo property is replaced at that post with the new (single) value?
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk basically i took the parsed microformats json of the edit example we made, and trimmed out anything that could be implied by the micropub endpoint
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aaronpk (author and edit date mostly)
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bret that would update the photo url right?
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk basically the same process as coming up with the original form-encoded micropub request for creating things as documented on /micropub
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bret yeah cool, super simple
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aaronpk technically the "properties" object isn't needed, but that makes it match the parsed JSON
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tantek aaronpk: any chance we can develop the form encoded version first? simpler design first? and then go all trendy JSON?
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aaronpk kiiinda... except once you require nested properties, form-encoding becomes ugly/hacky
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tantek I like this design process for such protocols: HTML+mf -> form encoded -> trendy JSON
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tantek that way we can swap out the trendy next year for whatever
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aaronpk we don't need nesting for *creating* things because we can just assume every property specified in the create is part of the tthing being created
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tantek aaronpk I'm convinced we can figure out flat & simple for form encoded
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aaronpk but for editing things, we first need to specify the URL of the thing being edited, and then also need to specify the changes
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aaronpk that's what led to the "mp-" prefix spec'd out earlier
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bret aaronpk: how do we handle properties that are deleted?
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tantek aaronpk: right, so start with mp-url
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bret or is it a coplete overwrite rather than an inherent type merge
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tantek bret - deletes are different
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aaronpk bret: this is the example before we turned it into the "edit" post https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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tantek bret - see two day ago conversation in IRC
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tantek and the results on /edit
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bret ok
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bret missed that
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tantek gotta keep up ;)
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aaronpk the problem with the mp- prefix is it's pretty arbitrary
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tantek aaronpk: nah, it follows a decent prefix naming pattern
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tantek when it comes down to it, all vocabularies are pretty arbitrary
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tantek only diff is if you can point to your methodology for coming up with them
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tantek e.g. prior art (vocabs), or patterns, etc.
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aaronpk well this is the result of trying to find a trimmed-down version of a form-encoded update https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-note.md#2-updating-a-note
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aaronpk deleting values and properties starts to get hairy tho
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aaronpk also in this gist, there's an example of adding to a list vs replacing the list https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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aaronpk being able to use a top-level property to specify the difference is nice
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tantek.com edited /Known (+234) "/* How to */ How to use API - from lurking on #knownchat" (view diff)
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aaronpk that would look like add[category]=indieweb in form-encoding
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aaronpk except that form-encoding itself doesn't have the concept of nested properties, but most parsers have implemented it with [] despite it not being in the spec
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aaronpk and because it's not in the spec, you get the difference between languages of how they handle things like foo=1&foo=2 vs foo[]=1&foo[]=2
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tantek aaronpk: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-note.md#2-updating-a-note seems to make sense
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tantek you could add the photo update example there too
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (-149) "Added my todo list" (view diff)
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+30) "Added IRC nick" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: re http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432748660499 its a little awkward in node/js land, most form encoding libs only do parsing rather than encoding, so it just requires a bit of npm diving
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bret but there are good ones out there that do both
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lancey.space edited /Django (-119) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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aaronpk bret: creating the form-encoded post should be part of any HTTP library you're using.. node doesn't do that?
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tantek aaronpk: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412 is a good start, except s/to a list//
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lancey.space edited /Python (+189) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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aaronpk why? every property is a list
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tantek the burden of proof is on inclusion of extra text
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tantek it's unnecessary
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tantek also "list" implies an ordering which I don't think you want
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aaronpk aren't microformats lists ordered?
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aaronpk i thought that was key
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tantek the property arrays reflect document order
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tantek if that's what you're trying to say, yet there is no need for a new term/concept "list" to express that
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aaronpk yes that's what i'm trying to say
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tantek hence you can omit "to a list" and nothing is lost.
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aaronpk i need to clarify the "add a value" then
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tantek example: the term "collection" is often used in various Social Web WG discussions, and when you use a specific term "list", then you incite debates about "list" vs "collection" etc.
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aaronpk can I call it an array?
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tantek this is why extra wordage is bad
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tantek it's like honey to the architecture astronauts
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tantek there is no need to call it anything - just "add a value" is fine
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aaronpk i'm trying to explicitly say it doesn't affect anything else in that... array/list/whatev
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tantek that's already implied by "add"
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aaronpk refresh. see if that works
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aaronpk if i can refer to everything as "properties have one or more values" then I can avoid terms like "array" and "list"
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tantek yes, and "If the property does not exist already, it is created."
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aaronpk added
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tantek similarly, for removing, "If no values remain, the property is removed."
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tantek (because that's what'll happen in the HTML result)
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tantek aaronpk: would you be up for keeping the form-encoded version side-by-side with these?
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aaronpk interesting idea, let me try that
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tantek I still think it's better to keep the form-encoded design up to date first, then have the JSON follow from that
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tantek to continue encouraging the HTML+mf -> form-encoded -> trendy format (JSON, XML) etc.
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tantek ouch - this deserves documentation on /short-domains : https://twitter.com/deewu/status/603988348584210432
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@deewu Good thing I wasn't attached to my .so domain. Renewal fee going from $19 to $102. (twitter.com/_/status/603988348584210432)
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kylewm rhiaro: don't you have a .so?
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aaronpk tantek: added form-encoded examples https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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aaronpk i'm not happy with all of them
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek sorry that was too much unfiltered noise - kicked/banned
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@kevinmarks Facebook intern mistakenly makes their Marauders map visible: http://mashable.com/2015/05/29/marauders-map-facebook-stalker/ Previously: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/09/geolocation-and-privacy.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/604363022136532992)
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+58) "/* To-do */" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: sorry was pulled away from irc. no, node's http server does not automatically decode the body, and even express requires that you set that middle ware up as of today. requires libs to do the encoding and decoding. using the JSON.stringify or JSON.parse on the body of the req or res is easier in this case. but doing form encoded isnt hard either,
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bret puts it in the funny looking form encoded on wire encoding until whatever on the other side turns it back into whatever native object the language uses
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bret i use https://www.npmjs.com/package/form-urlencoded for that
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bret it felt hard at first when i wrote gitpub, but its actually pretty trivial as Im a better JS dev now
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bret im tempted to actually accept form or json encoded micropub
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tantek bret - where is that on your itch list priorities?
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aaronpk bret: have you looked at this already then? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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bret aaronpk: yeah that loosk great, even if it gets transmitted as form
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bret tantek: im in itch gridlock right now :[
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aaronpk haha me too
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Loqi rofl
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tantek bret - you can escape the gridlock by braindumping them to your User: page Itches section
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tantek the reason braindumping them there (externalizing them from your brain) works, is because it's a distinctly differnt cognitive task to recognize/discover/document itches, than it is to prioritize them
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tantek so by default just braindump them to the end of your existing list, until no more come to mind
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aaronpk i've been using Wunderlist for that recently. although I think I need to make a separate list for "my site" vs "indieweb things"
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tantek then take a mental break (walk, drink, eat, etc.) and come back and look at the whole list and see what "hits you"
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bret been distracted by writing dev tooling stuff
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tantek then move that to the top (acknowledging that realization), save, and work on it
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tantek bret - it's ok to be distracted by other stuff, just add it all
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tantek or if you need to separate "your site" vs. "other" you can keep multiple lists for that
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (+74) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (+59) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: im back on the taskwarrior train
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GWG There's a train?
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tantek we have a bunch of big anniversaries coming up this year
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GWG Oh/
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tantek 2015-06-20 - 10 year anniversary of launch of microformats.org
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GWG Will there be cake?
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tantek 2015-07-18 - 5 year anniversary of the first Federated Social Web Summit
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bret aaronpk: https://inthe.am/about + http://taskwarrior.org/
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aaronpk wow
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tantek aaronpk we should kind of make a big deal of that
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aaronpk wow yeah totally
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tantek especially assuming we get major things built / launched at IWC 2015 - which is the weekend before
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk begs the question, what kind of major things would be good to build during IWC?
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tantek that almost sounds like you're asking for a VISION or something ;)
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benwerd I'm thinking about building flat-file storage for Known so you don't need a db at all
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aaronpk !!
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tantek benwerd++ !!
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benwerd Maybe with git bindings
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Loqi benwerd has 77 karma
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Pierre-O haha :)
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tantek running Known off a github io backend would be amazing
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benwerd That's what I'm thinking
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benwerd Or Dropbox
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benwerd Or Cozy
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benwerd Or ... etc
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Pierre-O Hum
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Pierre-O yes, it shoud be a service, not FS please :)
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tantek nah, git bindings is a decent enough approach / portable etc. with a default of github io
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aaronpk benwerd: you're thinking about making the Known app generate static HTML files that can be hosted somewhere?
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tantek whereas the others are all snowflakes (Dropbox, Cozy, etc.)
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Pierre-O benwerd: I have a quick question, can I host a version of Convoy (I believe it is based on known), and can I make a convoy-IH plugin?
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benwerd aaronpk: or maybe the other way around
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aaronpk or using files in place of a database, where the PHP app still serves the requests but reads from disk instead of a DB
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benwerd Pierre-O: No, but you can host the social media plugins, which are all on GitHub
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Pierre-O yeah it is what I do
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benwerd aaronpk: That second one
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Pierre-O I think I could reverse engineer the convoy plugin but well, no time for that, was just curious, thanks :)
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benwerd Pierre-O: we have to leave a few ways for us to pay the rent / eat
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Pierre-O I know :) I'm not mad at you, I understand :)
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benwerd But yes, alternative services are definitely possible
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benwerd And we've made sure to open source all the actual functionality
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bret gongrats you guys
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bret benwerd: leveldb is nice because it defaults to a library use, vs service oriented client/server
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bret npm install leveldb, done
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rhiaro kylewm: I'm retiring my .so in September because registrar are awful and won't let me transfer away, so that's okay
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Pierre-O benwerd: we need metaAPI, API to configure API :)
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kylewm I'm surprised so many new startups are relying on .ly for cute domain hacks ... seems very risky
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GWG rhiaro: I'm tempted to say, .so what?
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tantek kylewm: and here's your citation for that: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#ly
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GWG I think I'll stick to .us . Reasonably priced and non-controversial.
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tantek GWG, stick to? Could you add your usage to: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#us ? (see other short-domains for how people have noted their usage)
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kylewm actually I assumed optimizely was .ly but they are just optimizely.com
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benwerd Pierre-O: We do license Convoy to universities and so on, so could do something like that with IH
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aaronpk bitly changed to bitly.com a while ago
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kylewm no maybe nobody really does that
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kylewm so*
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GWG tantek: I'm on that page elsewhere, aren't I?
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tantek GWG, don't know - if you have a .us domain that you use with your site - you should add it to the .us section
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david.shanske.com edited /short-domains (+119) "/* us */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /short-domains (+151) "/* us */" (view diff)
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GWG I own two, to be accurate
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+48) (view diff)
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rhiaro I have amy.gy now :)
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tantek rhiaro: could you add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#gy ?
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rhiaro Aye
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rhiaro Hmm I need to resist rhia.ro
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aaronpk have you bought a .ro before? it was a pita for me
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rhiaro No
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rhiaro I know Romanians though
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rhiaro That might help
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aaronpk it involved either 1) faxing a copy of my credit card and drivers' license or 2) wire transfer
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rhiaro Lol
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aaronpk but it's a one-time registration fee, haven't had to renew it
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rhiaro Well I already spend too much on domains
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bret i've read that .io money goes and funds some pretty awful stuff
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KevinMarks gillmor gang time
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GWG Unfortunately for me, .ke doesn't seem to do top level, so I can't get my last name.
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bret KevinMarks: is that live?
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bret err listenable live?
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KevinMarks yes
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KevinMarks http://www.ustream.tv/GillmorGang
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bret KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 115 karma
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aaronpk oh i remember the other weird thing about sending payment for the .ro
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aaronpk they say that wire transfer fees for sending *and*receiving are paid by the customer
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aaronpk but then they say they can't tell me how much their bank will charge to receive
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aaronpk so I had to call their bank to ask if they charge a fee to receive USD, which they did not
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GWG Okay. I just bought gwg.us
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GWG Not sure what I'll do with it, but...
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sparverius make a url shortener
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GWG I have one at di5.us
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aaronparecki.com edited /short-domains (+532) "/* ro */ add some more details about .ro" (view diff)
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KevinMarks google's linking thing: http://googledevelopers.blogspot.com/2015/05/app-deep-linking-with-googl.html
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tantek aaronpk: can you add IWC Germany / Düsseldorf to /IndieWebCamps ? just we don't forget it :/
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+1649) "add 2015/Germany from home page" (view diff)
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aaronpk done
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tantek is updating the home page
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+693) "next IWC is main, so far Portland and Brighton are on, include info/details for both" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (-21) "Brighton confirmed for main IWC 2015" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+1) "Oxford," (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2015/ (+40) "Brighton confirmed for main IWC 2015" (view diff)
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tantek anyone here intersted in an early Octoberish IWC Austin?
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tantek I ask because there's an AEA (An Event Apart) Austin early October, and it may make sense logistically and in terms of crossover to have an IWC before/after
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rhiaro ooh my favourite couchsurfer so far is in austin!
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rhiaro I could visit her!
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rhiaro (probably not financially viable though really)
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gRegorLove I do love Austin, but probably won't be able to travel there in October
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rhiaro there's little chance I'll be able to blag funding for TPAC, so I can't do two expensive trips in october
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tantek.com edited /2015/ (+155) "Thinking about early October IWC Austin" (view diff)
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tantek well I added it to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/ so go ahead and add your interest level if any!
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KevinMarks anyone tried https://facebook.github.io/react-native/ ?
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tantek KevinMarks: see and add to http://indiewebcamp.com/React
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* IndieWebCamp */ put Brighton first because they'll start first. timezones" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, GWG are go/no-go HWC next Wednesday in PDX, NYC? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk yes, but trying to figure out the best venue, I want to do it on the east side this week
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kylewm I would totally consider Austin in October. I have a friend who just moved to Corpus Christi
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kylewm (who i would like to visit, not that those two places are particularly close)
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tantek yes - Austin is a fun place and I've missed it since bailing on SXSW since 2013
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kylewm does React really render UI components in JS Canvas?
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bret kylewm: i dont think so?
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bret but it does have a virtual-dom
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bear react native may, but react renders straight to it's virtual dom
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bret that is used for mvc stuff for actually creating the real dom
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tantek goes to manually update his upcoming events box on his index.html
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kylewm oh I see, the canvas stuff is specific to Flipboard (https://github.com/Flipboard/react-canvas)
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kylewm i was confusing that with "virtual DOM"
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bret kylewm: its confusing
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bret (im confused by it)
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bear very
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snarfed virtual canvas shadow dom layout rendering mwahahahahaha!!!
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snarfed runs awawy
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bret one insight i had... whats the alternative to virtualdom (eg, representing your dom as a js object)? not having one and tying all logic to the real dom api
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bret virtualdom gives you access to your dom, but with a different api
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bear the reason they use virtualdom vs native is to control refresh/updates
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bear when you touch the real dom you cannot control when updates happen
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bret kylewm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJGTtHlf9U
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bear but with the vdom you can have active/inactive "pages" which don't force a dom update even if they are offscreen
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tantek bear - not true - hence requestAnimationFrame
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bear this isn't animation at all
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bear i'm talking about updating a div that may have 1000 sub elements and then the dom redrawing all of them
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tantek bear - screen updates of any kind are animations of a sort - nevermind the name of the webapi
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bret aparently there is some advantage with the vdom in terms of diffing between updates
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tantek dang, squarespace templates are now apparently js;dr :P
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bret i dont get that part
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tantek JavaScript ; Didn't Render
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kylewm bear: thanks for explaining that. it maps pretty well to Java Swing actually which I'm much more familiar with :P
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bear glad to help
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tantek realizes he's only indie RSVPd to 1 of the 3 upcoming events he has listed, so still can't automate generation of his "Speaking & Events" box
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tantek would anyone else be interested in Bridgy Publish RSVP POSSE to Lanyrd?
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tantek goes to create another Bridgy Publish issue specifically for RSVP
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/390
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snarfed ah rsvp
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tantek that's for events
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tantek hence "another" :)
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tantek RSVP would likely be easier than Event POSSE
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tantek.com edited /Lanyrd (+75) "RSVP POSSE - feature request Bridgy Publish" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 195 karma
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tantek wonders if he should dare to ask the Lanyrd folks to "just" support receiving webmentions of Indie RSVPs.
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tantek is there magic text to auto-link an issue # reference in github issue comments?
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tantek e.g. I tried the obvious thing in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/412 but it didn't auto-link them
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aaronpk use #
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tantek but wait those aren't hashtags. ;)
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snarfed across projects, use USER/PROJECT#ISSUE
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aaronpk heh
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KevinMarks can we nag simon into adding rsvp support in lanyrd directly?
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tantek KevinMarks: do you read /me comments? ;)
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KevinMarks i was reading scollback
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tantek now that I've created http://lanyrd.com/2015/yxyy/ - I can post an Indie RSVP to it to at least provide a real world example
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tantek anyone else here going to YxYY this year? (June 12-15)
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KartikPrabhu reads logs
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: bear: thanks for the info on Logjam thingie. I am on a shared hosting so I suppose I should ask those guys to fix it
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tantek what is Logjam?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Logjam" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Logjam&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-29%2Fline%2F1432936516933
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KartikPrabhu tantek: should we document SSL bugs on the wiki?
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tantek if we use jargon here (#indiewebcamp) we should document them
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KartikPrabhu ok
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aaronpk has no idea what logjam is
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tantek general idea is to keep this channel and its logs more approachable
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tantek which means minimize jargon usage, and when necessary, make it so people can ask "what is"
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KartikPrabhu I am really no expert so I only know what this https://weakdh.org/ told me
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tantek ok to start with a short stub
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KartikPrabhu and that my site is getting a B instead of A+ on SSL labs because of it
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tantek hmmm - do any mf2 parsers support backcompat for h-event (i.e. vevent) ?
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tantek e.g. I'm not seeing any pick up of the vevent here: http://lanyrd.com/2015/yxyy/ from either phpmf2 or mf2py
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KartikPrabhu hmmm no seems mf2py only does hevent -> h-event
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tantek uh, there is no hevent
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KartikPrabhu weird
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tantek KartikPrabhu: see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar
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tantek hmm what is h-event
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Loqi h-event is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up an event post on web sites https://indiewebcamp.com/h-event
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tantek ok phew http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event#Parser_Compatibility says "vevent" :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: do you know why hevent -> h-event added to mf2py when it should be vevent -> h-event?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: oh mf2py says "ported and adapted from php-mf2" so likely php-mf2 also have hevent
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KartikPrabhu will updated mf2py now
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ \o/
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 95 karma
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KartikPrabhu tantek to be clear hevent -> h-event just should not be made yes?
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tantek right - there was never a class hevent
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KartikPrabhu ok god
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KartikPrabhu s/god/good
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: ok good
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tantek KartikPrabhu: while you're in there - can you check the other backcompat support classes?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: if you're feeling frisky https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/issues/39
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KartikPrabhu oh judas priest! :)
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kylewm :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes reviewed existing ones.
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tantek thanks much!
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tantek notes https://github.com/microformats/tests/tree/master/tests/microformats-v1/hcalendar uses vevent - so those tests should help (and pass better?) now
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kylewm should I file a bug on php-mf2? https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/master/Mf2/Parser.php#L1134
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yes
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tantek or make the one line edit?
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kylewm heh, true
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: any idea what the hreview-aggregate should map to?
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KartikPrabhu I can't find any thing on the microformats wiki for this
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tantek KartikPrabhu: did you try http://microformats.org/wiki/h-review-aggregate
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KartikPrabhu tantek yes and it has nothing on it :P
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tantek aww - it's only a stub
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KartikPrabhu tantek: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview does have a "item" property that is also absent from h-review
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KartikPrabhu oh my bad h-review does have it but mf2py does not in backcompat
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tantek ok expanding
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KartikPrabhu http://microformats.org/wiki/h-review#Backward_Compatiblity should say how the old "item" property should be mapped to new ones
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tantek on it
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tantek done
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KartikPrabhu cool! updating mf2py with those
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KartikPrabhu oh boy this just got complicated.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: does mf2py have a mechanism to do the "item" backcompat as mentioned here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-review#Backward_Compatiblity ?
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kylewm was just looking at that
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tantek yeah - careful what you ask for
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KartikPrabhu I could for starters just duplicate the hreview backcompat to hreview-aggregate but both of those are lacking in the recommended "item" property translation
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: no it doesn't :/ and the transformation for 'fn' looks totally wrong
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KartikPrabhu yeah it is
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kylewm could add a hack fix for just this specific case in the code (instead of in the big block of X -> Y translations)
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KartikPrabhu hmmm i don't know how wise that is.
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david.shanske.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+11) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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kylewm or represent it generally like {'item': {'vcard': ['p-item', 'h-card'], etc. }}
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: if it's literally the only case where we have to do this kind of conditional behavior, I think it's fine to hack it in. when there are two or three such cases, it'll be worth it to generalize
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KartikPrabhu hmm. i think the "item" thing in hreview and hreview-aggregate is the only case so far
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KartikPrabhu ok kylewm my mf2py repo is updated with the hevent -> vevent fix. feel free to pull from that and add these hacks :)
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kylewm lolol
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kylewm don't want to get your hands dirty?
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KartikPrabhu more like "I have no idea how to hack that" :P
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KartikPrabhu or as they say "above my pay grade"
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kylewm um, I think I ruined your world with aggressive rebasing last year
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kylewm why are there so many commits different between these two?? https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/compare/master...kartikprabhu:master
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KartikPrabhu i don't know :(
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KartikPrabhu I just updated mine from tommorris and changed the hevent to vevent
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KartikPrabhu git is confusing
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tantek what is git?
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Loqi Git is a popular distributed source control management system that can be used to host and share code from independent sites https://indiewebcamp.com/git
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+7) "comment out HWC NYC for this upcoming week" (view diff)
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tantek well that didn't work
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-16) "HTML comments don't work here so just delete" (view diff)
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GWG tantek, and next time
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+5) "Portland consistency" (view diff)
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GWG zachdonovan has a conflict on the 17th. I have one on the 3rd
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+2) "and consistency" (view diff)
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@first__tweet @jonatasabbott Do you know, you were the first person to tweet Indieweb http://ctrlq.org/first/69151-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/604419506274836480)
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kylewm I hate to ask, but can anybody help me and Kartik get back in sync on github? does he need to "git reset --hard orign/master"?
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out NYC for next week" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: i think all the code is synced correctly but there are these weird commit things floaitng around
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@first__tweet @brennannovak Do you know, you were the first person to tweet indiewebcamp http://ctrlq.org/first/69212-indiewebcamp-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/604420264269627392)
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KartikPrabhu oh boy
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KartikPrabhu !spammer @first_tweet ?
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Loqi Only aaronpk and tantek can do that
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tantek nah it's fine - I caused that
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tantek watch this
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@first__tweet @DickiesBackpack Do you know, you were the first person to tweet webmention http://ctrlq.org/first/69260-webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/604420867787915264)
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KartikPrabhu oh man
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tantek LOL
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gRegorLove kylewm, KartikPrabhu syncing always confuses me and I have to look it up each time, heh.
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@first__tweet @StephenTiano Do you know, you were the first person to tweet indieauth http://ctrlq.org/first/69266-indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/604421028396175360)
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gRegorLove I think the method I've settled on is git checkout upstream/master -b mydevbranch
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: well I cherry picked your commit for now https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/ea8e7129a9b6d6681c076e0f5db5e3b3bf3f3012
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KartikPrabhu yeah that seems to be the right one
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kylewm gRegorLove: do you run git fetch upstream first?
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gRegorLove I think it's not necessary. I think it creates a new branch from the upstream HEAD
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gRegorLove Which may not help you guys, depending how things are.
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gRegorLove Let me find the post I got it from.
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kylewm the problem is, all our files are the same, but the commit hashes are all different
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kylewm because i split up one giant pull request into a bunch of smaller requests (that was the aggressive rebasing)
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KartikPrabhu aah yes that is when it happened ^
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gRegorLove Might be easiest for one of you to create a new branch off that rebased branch and re-apply your changes there.
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gRegorLove But again, I always get confused by syncing up git
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gRegorLove <.02
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gRegorLove Here's the post I got that from: http://scribu.net/blog/resetting-your-github-fork.html
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gRegorLove I'm using the "PS" there when contributing to php-mf2, for example.
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gRegorLove delete the new branch after each PR, the forked master can easily be synced from upstream then
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KartikPrabhu i thought git was supposed to make life easier :P
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gRegorLove Git: At least we're not Subversion
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KartikPrabhu lol
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I think #B from gRegorLove's link would work nicely
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kylewm put your current master into a new branch called "backup", then move the "master" branch to upstream/master
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KartikPrabhu and then push the "master" to my repo?
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kylewm yeah that's the push --force line at the end
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tantek heh eschnou: https://twitter.com/eschnou/status/4868013127
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@eschnou IMHO, this shows that Fb is not sustainable, we need an open & federated 'social web' layer instead: http://twurl.nl/0hzkg4 (via @xdamman) (twitter.com/_/status/4868013127)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: did that work
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kylewm yup https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/compare/master...kartikprabhu:master
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kylewm gRegorLove++ thanks!
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Loqi gRegorLove has 5 karma
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KartikPrabhu ok neat
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gRegorLove woot!
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Loqi :D
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tantek.com edited /Cliqset (+478) "fix image src" (view diff)
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tantek not bad BarCamp: http://ctrlq.org/first/69607-open-web/