#indiewebcamp 2015-06-01

2015-06-01 UTC
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aaronpk
remember that time you could set public keys for other users on github by changing query string parameters?
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aaronpk
it's not just PHP that can have bad code
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gRegorLove
Whoa. No.
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gRegorLove
barnabywalters: Since it's in DomElement in the function already, maybe could use the functions to replace HTML5 elements with something like span?
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gRegorLove
vs appending empty span
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barnabywalters
gRegorLove: good idea, I suppose that would have the same effect without adding additional elements or affecting parsing behaviour
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gRegorLove
As long as it's at the end of the parsing process and isn't getting passed elsewhere of course
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aaronpk
"I simply added a <input value=USER_ID name=public_key[user_id]> field to Public key update form"
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barnabywalters
actually, I can think of an issue with that approach. php-mf2’s parsing algorithm cares what type of element things are, so we can’t just blanket change everything to a <div>
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barnabywalters
e.g. <data> parsing rules won’t be applied if all <data> elements are changed to <span>s
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barnabywalters
adding a <span /> shouldn’t ever affect the parsing behaviour, even in parsing implied properties
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barnabywalters
heading to bed now, goodnight
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Loqi
buenas noches
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aaronpk
the removing-trailing-slash thing on indieauth.com is coming back to bite me
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aaronpk
am i going to break a bunch of consuming sites if I normalize bare domains to include a trailing slash? right now it's inconsistent
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GWG
aaronpk: Why is it Loqi doesn't greet people? Only tells them bye?
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Loqi
dude
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aaronpk
the wiki does its own normalization of domain names to user accounts
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aaronpk
oh, I seem to have inadvertently already done that
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tantek
kylewm: php is giving me a parse error on a new line of code from your pull request: $urls = [];
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aaronpk
that's new php syntax. you can change it to array()
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aaronpk
i think that was added in php 5.4
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tantek
huh - looks like Safari does not like self-signed certs - like no option to check checksum and accept
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tantek
is doing a few tests
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aaronpk
if it's your own self-signed cert, you can replace it with a cert that is signed by a root authority you can add to your keychain
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tantek
lol Twitter without JS does not let you logout
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KartikPrabhu
oh Facebook is worse. I don't know if they even have a URL that works that way
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tantek
and then when you logout, there is no login text or button on the logged out page it returns
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aaronpk
the twitter logout page is the worst. it asks you to enter your phone number so they can send a link to download the app
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tantek
ok I suppose I can take my own advice and add to /Twitter#Issues
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tantek
but first let me say - thank you kylewm! your patch, manually applied to my *old* relmeauth.php - works!
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tantek
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 173 karma
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tantek
except for the minor s/[]/array()
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tantek
aaronpk++ thanks for that clarification
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Loqi
aaronpk has 829 karma
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I have relmeauth working again with rel=me to Twitter
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tantek
with that patch applied and the fix for php 5.3
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tantek
in case you wanted to try again before rewriting everything
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tantek
anyone around that want to try a live deploy of RelMeAuth?
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tantek
go to http://tantek.com/relmeauth/ and let me know how it works (or doesn't) for you
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tantek
(note it only works with a rel=me from your site to your Twitter for now - I believe ben_thatmustbeme is looking at adding github auth support too)
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tantek
!tell aaronpk new indieauth broke auto-implying http: :(
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell aaronpk or rather http:// - that is, entering "tantek.com" should be auto-expanded to http://tantek.com
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
(this is when trying to sign-into the indiewebcamp wiki)
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aaronpk
what? already?
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: new indieauth broke auto-implying http: :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-31/line/1433120623247
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: or rather http:// - that is, entering "tantek.com" should be auto-expanded to http://tantek.com http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-31/line/1433120651404
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aaronpk
weird, thoguht i tested that
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tantek
also the post-login-redirect-back-to-the-page-you-were-on broke :(
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tantek
(it goes back to the home page)
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aaronpk
that's been broken for a while
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aaronpk
oh i see what happened
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com (-396) "need help with / RelMeAuth PHP library - specific problem fixed thanks to kylewm, could still use help on anything "indieweb community" related"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk: and if you have a moment, try signing into tantek.com/relmeauth with aaronparecki.com
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tantek
I believe I've deployed kylewm's fixes to relmeauth.php there too - so the RelMeAuth demo should now work again
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tantek
GWG, still around? wondering if you wanted to discuss the <body class="h-card"> question further, I think I have some ways of helping relate to why it matters.
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tantek
GWG, are you familiar with og:type ?
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tantek
(asking since you've written some code to parse /OGP )
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GWG
tantek: I am
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tantek
the use of a h-* class name on <body> is very much intended as similar functionality
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GWG
It's up there with Activity Streams in my area.
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tantek
this has nothing to do with AS
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tantek
that is, anyone publishing a meta og:type, could instead (or in addition) put the respective h-* class name on <body> to also communicate the "type" of the page
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aaronpk
tantek: your relmeauth worked for me!
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GWG
tantek: I agree. I was more thinking the type categories remind me of the AS type categories.
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GWG
But, I think I put the h-feed on the body on pages with multiple h-entrys and the h-entry on the body on pages with only one h-entry.
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GWG
But I picked that up from pfefferle
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tantek
yes that is good practice
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tantek
aaronpk thanks for verifying!
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tantek
GWG, and since you consume OGP as well for your bookmarking, do you think it is reasonable to also (or first) check <body class> for h-* class names? i.e. would you parse for that?
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GWG
tantek: I want to prioritize microformats over open graph as a policy. However, as open graph is more prevalent, I supported it first.
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GWG
Use over ideals.
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GWG
But, if it was in the body class, I would parse for it, and use it over open graph if both were present.
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tantek
GWG, ok that is all very good feedback.
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GWG
tantek: By the way, I don't use type exactly.
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GWG
IF you look, I'm looking for title, description, site_name, featured image(which I think microformats has only in draft), and suggested tags
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tantek
GWG do you know anyone besides KartikPrabhu that is publishing u-featured? anyone here?
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KartikPrabhu
i don't think anyone but me publishes u-featured
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GWG
I may in the futue.
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GWG
future
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GWG
It's a simple change
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: do you remember when you started?
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tantek
and what's your earliest permalink?
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tantek
(with u-featured)
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KartikPrabhu
oh phew no! and since my site code isn't version controlled I have no way to find out i think
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KartikPrabhu
maybe I announced it on IRC here
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: tantek: I've used it a few times manually, eg <https://snarfed.org/2014-09-23_brooke>
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: i think that's the first
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: hasn't really stuck
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KartikPrabhu
completely failed to find an IRC ref to when he started using u-featured for images
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tantek
snarfed, hasn't stuck?
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: i haven't continued using it much
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KartikPrabhu
I do use it all the time. Including in the article permalinks
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tantek
snarfed: it's ok, at least some publishing experimentation is good
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KartikPrabhu
secondly I set a featured image in thebatabase anyway so might as well have it in the HTML
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KartikPrabhu
s/thebatavase/the database
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tantek
snarfed: also, it's a natural evolution of such ideas, some light experimentation (doesn't need to "stick"), documentation thereof, then eventually some consuming code interest, which can be tested on the documented examples, deployed, which then motivates more publishing experiments, and the publish/consume feedback loop accelerates from there (for ideas which have use-cases worth coding)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek. I saw the message about the 401. that might explain it. the optional redirect option in twitter setup isn't actually optional.... sounds like the type of error that would be expected
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme: kylewm left you a message 3 hours, 18 minutes ago: did you see my pull request on relmeauth? I had it working with twitter not that long ago :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-31/line/1433114326887
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly, i've ripped it apart quite a bit already. I'll concern myself with twitter / oauth1 after i get other setups working
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: tantek: definitely!
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: well if it helps to have a *working* model, try out tantek.com/relmeauth to see how it should be working
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought indieauth.com was the working model
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tantek
hah - indieauth.com is much more advanced
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tantek
I mean a working model of relmeauth
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tantek
including kylewm's fix - deployed
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tantek
also - I may be able to incrementally add the github support as well based on your work
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aaronpk
i'm curious to see how you both will approach letting the user choose the provider
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, not working for me
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm quite curious about that too :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
"None of your providers are supported"
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: do you have rel=me to Twitter?
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ben_thatmustbeme
the problem is twitter uses a t.co link on my twitter profile, i had to add resolving it to my version
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ben_thatmustbeme
maybe length of my url??
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: thats what i'm working on now
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: that's what kylewm's patch fixed - the t.co resolution
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ben_thatmustbeme
i had tried that before and it wasn't working for me
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ben_thatmustbeme
i pulled in kyle's latest earlier
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: except now tantek.com/relmeauth works for both me and aaronpk - so this is worth debugging to figure out why you are special :)
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aaronpk
refers to tantek's URI diagram
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tantek
uh oh - that's usually a bad sign
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ben_thatmustbeme
ahh, figured it out
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tantek
do tell!
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ben_thatmustbeme
not https://
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ben_thatmustbeme
which is a redirect, but the link did not follow that
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tantek
deliberately - to avoid people thinking they have secure identity with https but then not because they specified http in their rel=me backlink
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ben_thatmustbeme
not so sure thats really going to change security for relmeauth
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tantek
the point is that if you've setup your site with https, then there are more rules that apply to you
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ben_thatmustbeme
i would want the opposite. someone with https should have an easier time.. promote adoption of https rather than add hurdles
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tantek
it's not about easier time with https, it's about https *meaning* more secure
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ben_thatmustbeme
sure, it would be nice to notify them of such, but i don't think it should prevent login
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ben_thatmustbeme
its still as secure
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tantek
it should prevent login because that gets them to fix it
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tantek
it's not because the http steps still allows for a MITM
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aaronpk
it's more like making sure you can't accidentally un-secure yourself
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tantek
that too
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tantek
anyway ben_thatmustbeme does my /relmeauth test page work for you now?
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, i updated my twitter link
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tantek.com
edited /featured (+349) "IndieWeb Examples / Ryan Barrett, noted Kartik sometime in 2015"
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aaronpk
like if you've gone to the trouble of setting up https, everything should respect that and make sure you don't accidentally put yourself in a position that sacrifices that
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tantek
what aaronpk said is also what's behind the reasoning of all the checks in the SSLTest site etc.
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@dissolve333
Test from relmeauth prototype #indieweb
(twtr.io/103GEH9mDYo)
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tantek
whoa cool
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm actually removing write requests from mine, again, aiming more at indieauth.com alternative
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tantek
sure - I'm using RelMeAuth for multiple purposes obv
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aaronpk
tantek's doesn't ask for write access at first
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tantek
e.g. my Falcon POSSEing code to Twitter uses that same auth
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tantek
right, you have to explicitly opt-in by checking a checkbox for write access
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tantek
part of the point of the demo flow of that page
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: unfortunately I can't give permalink to first usage since I added "u-featured" into my templates and it updated for all articles!
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KartikPrabhu
and since then I have retroactively added it to the HTML of older posts so can't track that down either!
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, i'm just removing that code for now from mne
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that's ok - we can keep track of both
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tantek
since you've added it to all your posts - that's great - still helpful to know the earliest post that has it
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tantek
in addition, it's helpful to know when you enabled it
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KartikPrabhu
yeah it seems I have no real way of finding out when it was enabled
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KartikPrabhu
and the oldest post that has it would be a 2009 post imported from my Blogger blog :P
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KartikPrabhu
that even predates my indieweb site
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tantek
that's very cool that your enabling went back to stuff you imported!
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KartikPrabhu
no none of this seems to solve the issue of when I adopted it :P
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tantek
well, start with that 2009 permalink
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tantek
one problem at a time ;)
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KartikPrabhu
ok will add it as retroactive-enabled or something
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tantek
sure!
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tantek
and then we can search the IRC logs for "u-featured" right
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter_Cards (+875) "document Card Types explicitly, step 1 to providing h-* equivalents to use on body tag instead or in addition, add more microformat alternative specifics"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
I tried and the mentions of "u-featured" go as far back as 2014-09 but couldn't find a mention of me saying I enabled it
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /featured (+114) "added retro-enabled"
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /featured (+17) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ added date"
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GWG
What h tags are you thinking, tantek?
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GWG
Out of curiousity?
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tantek
GWG - more like trying to find equivalents for the various existing og:types
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tantek
GWG, I just added a few to the Twitter Cards equivalents
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I have been going through my photo posts and making the presentation better and so along the way added "u-featured" and "p-summary" to them
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tantek
h-entry (with optional u-photo, u-audio, u-video), or h-card, or h-product - covers most of Twitter's cases
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: agreed. Even though people can make up their own mf2 objects, those should cover almost all use-cases. If not we can just document proposed additions lik e"u-featured"
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tantek
right
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GWG
Gets me thinking about a related issue in my mind. media check-in.
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KartikPrabhu
what's that?
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GWG
This article is a stub?
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tantek
media check-in has always felt like a forced concept / someting marketingy/brand-y/virtual to distract people from actual *physical* checkins
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aaronpk
really dislikes the use of the term "check-in" for anything other than physical locations
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tantek
GWG, yeah - the article is incomplete in many ways, hence still stub
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tantek
aaronpk: completely agreed
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KartikPrabhu
agrees with aaronpk
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aaronpk
however I definitely plan to publish what media I consume!
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tantek
a "media check-in" is actually just a bookmark indicating where you are in a piece of media
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aaronpk
i've been keeping logs of TV episodes in a text file for about 2 months now
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GWG
I used the term because it is in te wiki
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KartikPrabhu
does visiting a website correspond to media-check-in into that website :P
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tantek
GWG we should fix that then - where in the wiki?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: exatly
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: more like a "watched list"
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tantek
wow it's own page
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GWG
I started thinking about it after this. http://indiewebcamp.com/scrobbling
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tantek
but scrobbling is also not checkingin
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aaronpk
there apparently isn't a good word for it, so they made up "scrobble"
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tantek
aaronpk: they didn't dare to turn "listen" into a noun ;)
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aaronpk
probly can't trademark Listen™
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tantek
KartikPrabhu perhaps add a "Criticism" section to /media_checkin with the criticisms we noted above?
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GWG
Well, credit to acegiak, I have -listen -watch -play and -wish in Post Kinds.
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KartikPrabhu
well the only criticism we made seems to be "this is a vacuous term, which applies to everything and hence useless" ?
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snarfed
still hasn't bothered marking up any of his https://snarfed.org/lists
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: no that's not true - I was much more specific in my criticism above
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KartikPrabhu
aah you mean about the "marketing term" criticism
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aaronpk
is chewing through indieauth.com tickets
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I think you would better at putting that criticism on the wiki. My thoughts are still filled with "this is useless" and I don't want the wiki criticism to sound dismissive
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aaronpk
anyone have an example of publishing the actual text of the PGP key in their home page, not just a link to it?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OpenID (-13) "/* Consuming Sites */"
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aaronpk
ahh thankx
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OpenID (+5) "/* Consuming Sites */"
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aaronpk
is tired
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aaronpk
i keep getting "slashdot" "stackoverflow" and "sourceforge" confused in my head
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tantek
aaronpk, I keep hearing "silo", "silo" and "silo" ;)
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aaronpk
i'm testing openid logins
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tantek
on a long enough timeline, all silos look the same
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aaronpk
can't believe status.net -> e14n.com
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aaronpk
openid login errors are so not helpful
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aaronpk
"Login failed"
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aaronpk
"Error: invalid_credentials"
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aaronpk
i have no idea whose fault that is or how to fix it
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tantek
lol - are our indieauth error messages better? ;)
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aaronpk
some of them are!
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aaronpk
well the good news is openid didn't totally break during this refactor
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OpenID (+303) "/* Consuming Sites */"
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aaronpk
the bad news is i can't tell where the problem is for the ones that i couldn't get in to
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aaronpk
holy crap
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aaronpk
someone is download the wiki
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Loqi
lolz
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tantek
aaronpk: might be a reaction to it being down for a bit ;)
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aaronpk
been pulling 40 pages/second for the last 4 hours
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aaronpk
30 megabits
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aaronpk
30 megabits per second
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tantek
wait, do we have that many pages?
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aaronpk
we have an infinite number of URLs...
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tantek
uh what - no. sounds like someone has a buggy spider.
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aaronpk
well, mediawiki lets you query recentchanges in all sorts of fun ways
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aaronpk
here's 10 seconds of access logs https://indieweb.org/crawl.txt
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tantek
what is downtime?
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tantek
downtime is the time period or duration while a site, whether indieweb, [[commons]], or [[silo]], is offline and unreachable.
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loqi.me
created /downtime (+152) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-31/line/1433133685548 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /downtime (+328) "note indieweb example with Linode Status archive"
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tantek
capturing not meant as criticism, but more as what happened that is now spurring a lot of us to try to distribute some of these services
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tantek
rhiaro: feel free to add your personal experiences to https://indiewebcamp.com/downtime
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: ok I'll add something to /media_checkin. I wonder if gRegorLove still likes the concept.
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aaronpk
has reached the point of exhaustion
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tantek
is approaching that, having run 12 miles this morning.
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tantek
is trying to keep up with what people brought up in IRC today. And still wants to make progress on his own webmention sending support. :/
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@aaronpk
Happy to say https://indieauth.com is now running on 3 physically separate servers behind DNS load balancing! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/05/31/1/indieauth
(twtr.io/103RxeFdd_f)
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@Indie_Auth
RT @aaronpk: Happy to say https://indieauth.com is now running on 3 physically separate servers behind DNS load balancing! http://t.co/MI…
(twtr.io/103S0XnkUAf)
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tantek
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 830 karma
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aaronpk
that was a *much* bigger project than I anticipated
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@kevinmarks
RT @aaronpk: Happy to say https://indieauth.com is now running on 3 physically separate servers behind DNS load balancing! http://t.co/MI…
(twtr.io/103S6oqSkFj)
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kylewm
aaronpk: I think that normalizing with a "/" will break logins for Woodwind, but it's the right thing to do and it'll be easy to fix on my end
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aaronpk
you are correct
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aaronpk
i now have two woodwind accounts :)
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kylewm
hehehe
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tantek
kylewm: sorry to take so long to evaluate your RelMeAuth pull request, a belated huge thanks.
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kylewm
tantek: sure!! thanks for merging :)
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tantek
(twice even :) once manually into my local copy, which may be out of date with the github version, and on github)
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aaronpk
i'm very curious what sorts of new bugs i've introduced
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tantek
besides the http:// need? or did that get fixed already?
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aaronpk
that's fixed
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aaronpk
along with other URL normalization things
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aaronpk
kylewm: switchboard is getting a lot of 404s for the subscription verification request
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aaronpk
from woodwind, that is
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tantek.com
edited /media_checkin (+1165) "update dfn, note contention, silo examples, see also bookmark"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu, aaronpk, ^^^ please review and feel free to expand upon / add other criticisms
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /media_checkin (-2) "/* Silo Examples */ fix typo"
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ben_thatmustbeme
well... how about that... able to verify ownership of my domain through github now :D
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ben_thatmustbeme
err. with my own code that is
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ben_thatmustbeme
and by my own, i mean others code that i have now mangles to hell
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tantek.com
edited /Instagram (+403) "note adoption with article about fashion bloggers, note looping/pause/volume changes in UX"
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aaronpk
is it more important to have URLs in order of date of the post, or date the post was published?
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rhiaro
aaronpk: I have in order of published date on my home page, and in order of post date in 'special' pages where future plans matter, like /travel and /calendar
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rhiaro
!tell tantek: I can't sign in at /relmeauth, it says 'expecting 200, got 301', but I don't have any redirects on my homepage
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Zegnat_
aaronpk: are there any problems with indieauth’s new load balancer? I can’t reach the site.
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aaronpk
Zegnat: not that i'm aware of. i see requests to all the servers within the last few minutes
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Zegnat
I’ll try again then. Karma seems to be against me anyway, my own website gave a 403 this morning.
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aaronpk
also if you refresh a couple times on indieauth.com you'll get bounced around to different servers
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Zegnat
I am just getting ‘Safari Can’t Find the Server’ pages every time. I think I am going to reboot, because all these problems are really starting to pile up.
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Zegnat
That didn’t help. Something about the IndieWeb just doesn’t like me.
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aaronpk
wow... can you open a terminal and tell me the output of `dig indieauth.com`?
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aaronpk
oookay.. how about dig +trace indieauth.com
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aaronpk
I don't know why your dns server forgot about the root nameservers...
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aaronpk
are you at home? what is 192.168.1.1?
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Zegnat
192.168.1.1 is the router, I am using an ethernetcable directly plugged into it
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aaronpk
huh, i have no idea why it would not know how to resolve that
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Zegnat
I’ll see if there is some way to reset the router’s DNS when I login on it.
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Zegnat
I was still using IndieAuth yesterday, including some more tests with cookies to get the FAQ updated. So no idea why it stopped working.
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Zegnat
fkooman: question, are you hosting tuxed.net in Germany, and how are you getting away with not having an Impressum on the site?
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aaronpk
i changed the root nameservers for the domain today, but i don't understand why that would cause anything to completely forget how to resolve it
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fkooman
Zegnat, because I didn't know about it? :)
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Zegnat
fkooman, I don’t think that holds up in court but it does answer my question ;)
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aaronpk
i doubt any court will be going after fkooman's personal site any time soon ;)
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Zegnat
aaronpk: yep, it is weird. I’ll try an alternative DNS server for a second.
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cweiske
fkooman, I thought I don't have to have an impressum as long as the page is not commercial
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fkooman
Zegnat, yeah, and maybe they could give me a warning first or something :)
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aaronpk
cweiske: guten morgen
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Zegnat
So, I was considering hosting in Germany and have been trying to read up on this.
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aaronpk
you will be pleasantly surprised to know that indieauth.com should now support your delegated endpoint :)
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Zegnat
It seems like any sharing of content not aimed only at close personal friends is providing content and needs an impressum.
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cweiske
whattf
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aaronpk
please file any bugs on the github repo https://github.com/aaronpk/indieauth.com/issues because i am going to sleep
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Zegnat
There also seem to be lawyers simply looking for websites that forget it and then try to settle out of court, which everyone wants as the fine is upward to 5000 EUR
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cweiske
aaronpk, "client_id" parameter missing
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Zegnat
cweiske: ‘Bitte beachte, dass du bei jeglicher Veröffentlichung von Inhalten (einfach gesagt, immer dann, wenn deine Website nicht ausschließlich aus einem passwortgeschützten Bereich besteht) dem Telemediengesetz unterliegst, das dich in aller Regel zur Angabe eines Impressums verpflichtet.’ - Uberspace.de Hausordnung.
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cweiske
http://www.e-recht24.de/artikel/datenschutz/209.html "Impressum auch für private Webseiten?" says differently
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Zegnat
Give me a sec to read that.
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Zegnat
That article does also say: ‘Rechtlich noch nicht geklärt ist auch der Bereich der journalistischen oder redaktionellen Inhalte. Auch Blogger und Forenbetreiber sollten deshalb über ein Impressum verfügen.’
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cweiske
yeah, they are going the safe route
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cweiske
I don't
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cweiske
I don't run ads, I don't sell anything
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cweiske
so no impressum for me
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aaronpk
cweiske: thanks! fixed it
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cweiske
not asleep yet it seems :)
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cweiske
Something went horribly wrong! I'm sorry, there's not much other information available. You should probably file an issue: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues.
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fkooman
hmm...weird this impressium stuff...
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cweiske
aaronpk, you can try it yourself with indieauth.id.cweiske.de/ and your own openid
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cweiske
my openid gateway is generic
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cweiske
open for all openids
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aaronpk
okay this i will have to do tomorrow :)
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Zegnat
More about Impressum: http://www.bahnhof-hamburg.de/impressum.html - this was one of the only pages I was able to find with real information.
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Zegnat
cweiske: that page also talks about the difference between ‘geschäftsmäßig’ and ‘gewerbsmäßig’, basically pointing out that the law applies even without ads on the site.
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cweiske
I still do my website in my free time
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Zegnat
Interesting, I wonder if that argument makes a difference.
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Zegnat
It is a weird law to apply to people who aren’t selling anything.
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Zegnat
But as I am considering moving my hosting to Germany I was wondering how other IndieWeb-folks were complying. That’s a ‘not’ from cweiske and fkooman then :p
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fkooman
haha yep :) didn't even know about it
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fkooman
and unfortunately I can't comply to it, because I am not gonna put my address on a public website... if someone wants to know where I live they could just ask :)
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KevinMarks___
sounds like one for Jeff Jarvis to rant about
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Loqi
KevinMarks___: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 32 minutes ago: how do I file github issues on https://github.com/kevinmarks/feedparser ? e.g. to put in a feature request to support parsing h-feed directly? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-31/line/1433114024013
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Zegnat
fkooman: yes, that is the main complain for everyone. If you do not own a company with a separate address you will be forced to publish your home address :(
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fkooman
i wonder why this law hasn't been fixed yet
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Zegnat
Same reason as always, no actual IT-interested parties in parliament.
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cweiske
fkooman, or use whois
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KevinMarks___
!tell tantek - odd, issues was defaulted off. On now
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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fkooman
cweiske, true :)
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Zegnat
My address is listed on my whois and on several Swedish look-up websites. As far as I know addresses are actually part of public information in Sweden. (A long with a person’s income and what not.) So I don’t much care about that.
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Zegnat
I just want to know what the Telemediengesetz is actually forcing me to put on my website
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cweiske
if you want to put an impressum on your site, you have to provide your postal address
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Zegnat
cweiske: providing my postal address is not a problem (http://vanderven.se/martijn/). Information about other requirements is harder to find though.
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Zegnat
E.g. TMG also includes a section about talking about data protection (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/BJNR017910007.html#BJNR017910007BJNG000400000), and I have no idea if this applies to personal sites or not. Uberspace talks about it on their impressum, BeyondTellerand doesn’t.
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cweiske
it requires you to show a "we're using cookies, by using this website you are accepting this" message
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cweiske
and follow the principles of Datensparsamkeit
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KevinMarks___
i want someone to quantify the years wasted dealing with cookie messages on eu websites
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cweiske
adding them or clicking "ok" to them?
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Zegnat
Cookies is a wrong term to use there, actually. I gave the Dutch implementation of the EU directive a look not long ago, and I believe it also applies to localstorage et al.
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KevinMarks___
reading them, like the US paperwork prevention law
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Zegnat
Oh my, I was wrong, the fine for a missing or faulty impressum is upwards to 50000 EUR, an extra 0.
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Zegnat
Let’s hope that Kickstarter fails, or else I will get loads of issues filed again PRISM Break for not including ‘military-grade crypto’… again.
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petermolnar
what is ‘military-grade crypto?
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petermolnar
I mean seriously... is there a definition on that somewhere?
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KevinMarks___
that is the joke
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petermolnar
ok, I loaded the kickstarter page
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Zegnat
Usually it means some form of AES, because at some point the US government guideline was to use AES encryption for classified material. These post-Snowden days it can mean anything.
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petermolnar
so I guess no one is actually checking kickstarter for frauds...
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Zegnat
petermolnar: I am assuming that was spoken with irony?
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petermolnar
irony? no, that page is a fraud
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KevinMarks___
"military grade encryption" needs a time boundary
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Zegnat
I meant the fact Kickstarted would be checking for frauds ;)
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Zegnat
Kickstarter does not have a good trackrecord there
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petermolnar
that is very true
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Zegnat
military grade encryption: once the military feels fine sharing their encryption with you, it is no longer military grade
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KevinMarks___
tattoing a slaves head and waiting for hir to regrow was militray grade encryption in the 2nd century AD
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petermolnar
I'd be surprised if the encryption tools available for us in linux would be much less powerful than the ones they actually use for military purposes
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cweiske
military grade means that the government can decrypt it
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cweiske
I wouldn't want it
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Loqi
timbl has 4 karma
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petermolnar
gosh I can't believe that thing in Britain, especially that I'm living here currently
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Zegnat
petermolnar: that is true, also because a lot of today’s encryption tools are based on solid mathematical principals. But the military might have access to even slower and more hardened file formats we don’t know about yet, which would still make them better.
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rhiaro
thinking about moving out of uk asap
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petermolnar
rhiaro you're in Scotland, aren't you? that's slighly better
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Zegnat
cweiske: could you look at this PDF for me and tell me what you think, specifically page 3, http://www.bmjv.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/pdfs/LeitfadenZurAnbieterkennzeichnung.pdf
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cweiske
"Etwas anderes gilt nur bei Angeboten, die ausschließlich privaten oder familiären
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cweiske
Zwecken dienen und die keine Auswirkung auf den Markt haben."
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cweiske
when publishing open source software, am I having effects on the commercial software market?
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Zegnat
I think this applies to OSS: ‘Manche Gerichte vertreten die Ansicht, dass das Angebot schon ”žgeschäftsmäßig“ ist, wenn es aufgrund einer nachhaltigen (das heisst nicht auf einen Einzelfall beschränkten) Tätigkeit erfolgt; eine Gewinnerzielungsabsicht ist danach nicht erforderlich.’
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cweiske
I don't want to care about this anymore and will stop thinking about it
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KevinMarks___
that link is relevant, in that Germany is trying hard to protect against corporations to the point of bothering individuals too mahc
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KevinMarks
is it just me, or is this first world problems designed by committee? https://www.google.com/design/icons/
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Zegnat
KevinMarks, I think the link is relevant to any IndieWeb creator based from Germany or hosted in Germany. It may apply to anyone of them who wants to set-up their personal identity online. But finding correct info on the issue is proving to be hard, especially in English
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kegan
KevinMarks, I think they just want people to be consistent
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KevinMarks
they have 8 icons for kinds of airline seats
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@kevinmarks
Google's design icons distinguish 8 kinds of airline seats but has none for trains or buses https://www.google.com/design/icons/ https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/605307018199457796/photo/1
(twtr.io/103qW7MJyGb)
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cweiske
and none for horses!
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cweiske
big horses, ponies, ...
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KevinMarks
or bicycles
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nurv
hi there.
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rhiaro
petermolnar: Scotland is better. If we end up leaving EU maybe there'll be another indyref :)
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petermolnar
and I'll end up either in Scotland if you stay in the EU or in Amsterdam in that case, being a foreigner
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nurv
I work at a open source project called FenixEdu, we do software for schools, from cloud based storage, to workflow systems. We are going to make a new LMS, with social caracteristics, and we would like to use something like diaspora so that each school would have their instance but a student from a school could add a friend from another school. Did you guys worked on something like this?
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petermolnar
not really; the indieweb goal is for everyone to have their own site/domain instead of centralized services
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KevinMarks
yes, indieweb protocols make this possible
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KevinMarks
withknown.com is probably the most education focused project
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nurv
KevinMarks: can you point protocol spec so I can start looking at it?
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KevinMarks
but the various readers enable this too
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petermolnar
nurv you might be looking for http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:building-blocks but I'm not entirely sure
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petermolnar
known is open source by the way, so you can build the whole stack yourself as well: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/developers/
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Zegnat
Every school could run there own local installation of Known, and I think the members will be able to cross-server follow each other. There is no real ‘friending’ system though. I would say it compares more to Twitter than Facebook, in social terms.
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nurv
KevinMarks petermolnar Zegnat : thanks!
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Zegnat
!tell aaronpk Changing DNS server made indieauth.com accessible again, definitely a local problem on my end.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IRC_People (+1) "/* Nicknames */ Once and for all fix the linking of Zegnat in the logs."
(view diff)
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Zegnat
Well, that only took like 3 tries. But now it works. Ish.
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vanderven.se martijn
created /User:Vanderven.se/martijn/ (+39) "The only way to get Chat Log links to work is to claim this one."
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+65) "/* Participating */"
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Zegnat
what is IndieWeb?
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Loqi
The indieweb is about owning your domain and using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and ownyourdata https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb
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lancey.space
edited /User:Lancey.space (+41) "/* To-do */"
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vanderven.se martijn
created /User:Vanderven.se_martijn (+1313) "Created page with "Walking a fine line between [[apprentice]] and [[creator]]. == My [[FAQ#What_is_a_personal_website|personal website]]. == It is <a href="http://vanderven.se/martijn/"><code>van...""
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@kevinmarks
@harrisj specifications with a single implementation are toxic waste. commonality is key.
(twtr.io/1040CCqboH4)
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petermolnar
KevinMarks I disagree; every custom made clothing for example is a specification with a single implementation
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_Martijn (-287) "Case sensitivity patch."
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
no, petermolnar , that is bespoke clothing
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KevinMarks
which is very different
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KevinMarks
it is pararmeterized assembly
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petermolnar
in case it's just a tailoring, you're right, but I'm talking about actual custom design
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petermolnar
one-of-a-kind things
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KevinMarks
my grandmother was a seamstress
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KevinMarks
her entire job was parametric adjustment of templates to fit individuals
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petermolnar
yep, that's not what I'm addressing here
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KevinMarks
she said that she hd had enough of adjusting trousers in her day job
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KevinMarks
but she made my sisters totally kickass outfits
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+80) "/* Participating */"
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LanceyWork
petermolnar, that's implying that unique custom made clothing isn't a waste
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+147) "/* Participating */"
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+21) "/* Organising */"
(view diff)
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petermolnar
LanceyWork why would it be? It's a kind of art IMHO
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adactio.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+960) "/* Indie Web Camp Brighton 2015 */"
(view diff)
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LanceyWork
art can still be wasteful
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petermolnar
KevinMarks that's more then adjusting parameters; adding in details that were not present in the pattern and so on
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KevinMarks
i'm saying that your metaphor is broken
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petermolnar
LanceyWork sure, but since it depends on taste, it's a bit hard to tell objectively which is which :)
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petermolnar
KevinMarks no, it's not; custom order != customized order
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vanderven.se martijn
created /Template:martijnvdven (+158) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|http://vanderven.se/martijn/martijn.jpg}} [[User:Vanderven.se_martijn|Martijn van der Ven]]</span>""
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn (+612) "Clarify all this user page mess."
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@levlaz
RT @aaronpk: Happy to say https://indieauth.com is now running on 3 physically separate servers behind DNS load balancing! http://t.co/MI…
(twtr.io/1042a9Kwi9s)
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Zegnat
Took only 3 redirects, several tries at /IRC_People, and an hour or so of my time. But I finally have a stable user page on the wiki.
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@Tzeejay
https://indieauth.com This idea is quite interesting! The idea that you sustain your own identity is really good.
(twtr.io/1043EkuJRmg)
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paulrobertlloyd.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+294) "/* Participating */"
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paulrobertlloyd.com
edited /2015/Brighton (+29) "/* Participating */"
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petermolnar
indieauth really doesn't like me
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petermolnar
ok, it finally let me in
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Zegnat
petermolnar, we should start a club
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petermolnar
#thosewhoindieauthdontlike
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petermolnar
s/dont/doesnt
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Loqi
petermolnar meant to say: #thosewhoindieauthdoesntlike
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Zegnat
Or maybe #thosewhowanttobelikedbyindieauth
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petermolnar
looking at my comments today I kind look negative o.O
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petermolnar.eu
edited /2015/Brighton (+283) "/* Participating */"
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ben_thatmustbeme
is working on an alternative to indieauth as we speak
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cweiske
indieauth.com or the protocol itself?
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ben_thatmustbeme
though you can always just create a local version
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ben_thatmustbeme
the protocol
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petermolnar
are there any public details available on that, ben_thatmustbeme?
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ben_thatmustbeme
on the spec?
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ben_thatmustbeme
http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth has links to any pages that would be useful
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ben_thatmustbeme
its basically openauth 2
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats the page i was looking for, i thought there was one specific for it
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ben_thatmustbeme
cweiske++ thanks
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Loqi
cweiske has 31 karma
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GWG
Good morning
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ben_thatmustbeme
... an hour later
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kylewm
petermolnar: indieauth.com went through a *major* refactoring this weekend; i bet aaronpk would appreciate a bug report if it was giving you trouble this morning
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kylewm
!tell aaronpk the 404 from woodwind to switchboard for push verification is because it's sending the field names without "hub."
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
it worked after a while
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petermolnar
no actual bug I could report unfortunately
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petermolnar
or fortunately
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lancey.space
edited /User:Lancey.space (+74) "/* To-do */"
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@PehrMartens
RT @benborges_: Hey #WebWeWantFest People, have a look at this @indiewebcamp this @une_brique this @yunohost and this @withknown http://t.c…
(twtr.io/104KY_a4QKC)
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kylewm
!tell KevinMarks should I be using your fork of feedparser in Woodwind? like, will it do a better job finding podcast enclosures etc?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks2
Yes, though I don't find linked urls by type like the previous version, so you may miss some
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aaronpk
well whoever was scraping the wiki stopped after a couple hours
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Loqi
aaronpk: Zegnat left you a message 5 hours, 16 minutes ago: Changing DNS server made indieauth.com accessible again, definitely a local problem on my end. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433154957318
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Loqi
aaronpk: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 20 minutes ago: the 404 from woodwind to switchboard for push verification is because it's sending the field names without "hub." http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433169114387
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aaronpk
kylewm: oh!
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aaronpk
it should have been sending the names without a hub if the request came in without hub.
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aaronpk
kylewm: is there a way for me to get woodwind to try to make the PuSH subscription again?
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kylewm
aaronpk: if you click "Poll Now" it will try to subscribe again as part of polling
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com (+191) "/* indieweb community */ IndieMark iteration higher up in priority list"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 174 karma
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aaronpk
thanks, found the bug!
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@diplix
btw: i became a big #indieweb-fan in the last couple of weeks. (micropubed w quill, syndicated w bridgy) (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7730/1/6/)
(twtr.io/104Tqb3K7oH)
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tantek
!tell ben_thatmustbeme the point of the relmeauth library is to have that functionality on your own site - certainly *not* to make another protocol (in addition to IndieAuth protocol). Also ok to grow relmeauth lib to optionally *support* the IndieAuth protocol.
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Loqi
tantek: rhiaro left you a message 9 hours, 10 minutes ago: I can't sign in at /relmeauth, it says 'expecting 200, got 301', but I don't have any redirects on my homepage http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433144311363
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks___ left you a message 7 hours, 59 minutes ago: - odd, issues was defaulted off. On now http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433148568111
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /feedparser (+190) "h-feed support - note github feature request"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i know, but not my itch
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 15 minutes ago: the point of the relmeauth library is to have that functionality on your own site - certainly *not* to make another protocol (in addition to IndieAuth protocol). Also ok to grow relmeauth lib to optionally *support* the IndieAuth protocol. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433177320674
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ben_thatmustbeme
also, can be used in inform relmeauth lib
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ben_thatmustbeme
and not another protocol, i'm making another implementation of the same protocol
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tantek
it sounded like you were talking another protocol in IRC, e.g. mention of OpenAuth2 (what is that?!?)
#
Loqi
That! (or "that ^" or "that ^^^") is a rarely seen reply often emphasizing agreement with a This post, but sometimes[1] merely emphasizing agreement with a previous reply https://indiewebcamp.com/that
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aaronpk
s/OpenAuth2/OAuth2/ ?
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: "not my itch" - problem was it wasn't clear what *was* / is your itch - that's the question
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tantek.com
edited /Medium (+237) "/* Criticism */ another tweet - calling out Medium's "phony" use of "openness""
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+288) "Intranet Examples / XOXCO markdown flat file based wiki"
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aaronpk
i am tempted to try to make a little app that can render our wiki files as html
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aaronpk
and then add editing to it
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aaronpk
and then replace mediawiki
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snarfed
aaronpk: that way lie dragons
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aaronpk
so many dragon
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tantek
yeah let's avoid the markdown vs. HTML editing debates please :)
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gRegorLove
Morning, indieweb
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aaronpk
who said anything about markdown vs html!
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gRegorLove
Bridgy doesn't seem to be finding my post from yesterday and sending wm back. I did renew Bridgy last week-ish, I think, though I don't know how long it had been expired.
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snarfed
gRegorLove: which silo?
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aaronpk
a small app to render the wiki source would still be useful, since it'd allow offline browsing of the wiki
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gRegorLove
oops, FB
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snarfed
gRegorLove: looking
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tantek
aaronpk no one said anything - I was anticipating/cringing
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tantek
yes - rendering wikisource (as is) would be very useful
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: fair enough, my itch it to remove my dependance on indieauth.com
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tantek
ah - that's what you meant by "render our wiki files". *existing* wiki files. got it.
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snarfed
cowardly refuses to click
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aaronpk
"Very brave PHP developers willing to fix dumpHTML should probably plan some weeks of work on it"
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ben_thatmustbeme
which i have working... just getting a problem with tokens though
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i can log in fine
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tantek
aaronpk: "dump" isn't the point though - not the whole thing at least. doing a viewer of single files seems more reasonable
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aaronpk
what i want is something that can take the folder of files here and let you browse around https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup/data/
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aaronpk
gotta figure out a solution for case-insensitive filesystems tho
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snarfed
gRegorLove: i'm stumped so far :(
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aaronpk
oh man, there's apparently an option to have the OSX filesystem be case-sensitive, but that seems... like not something easy to change :P
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@jgarber
@helenvholmes So my thought is: If it’s worth sharing in an email newsletter, it’s probably worth sharing on your own website.
(twtr.io/104XoR5tFwo)
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ben_thatmustbeme
relmeauth.thatmustbe.me
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ben_thatmustbeme
is now my auth endpoint
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voxpelli
aaronpk: a colleague has mounted a .dmg with a case sensitive file system on his OS X I believe – and does his webdev in that one
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aaronpk
hah that's a thought
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: that was fast
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually only until i can get a better url and ssl key for it
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: why is twitter not supported?
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aaronpk
ah you just gave up?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i only do github at the moment
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i started a lot of parts from scratch
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aaronpk
oauth1--
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Loqi
oauth1 has -1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
oauth1 i can work on later
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aaronpk
github worked!
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aaronpk
oh weird, getting an error trying to start again
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snarfed
gRegorLove: tracking here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/415 . sorry for the trouble!
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aaronpk
i think the form is submitting the query string parameters
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gRegorLove
That's ok. Thanks for checking on it.
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gRegorLove
snarfed:
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: interesting - you added the confirmation step
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tantek
the original design of web sign-in didn't require confirmation because it treated order as fallback
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tantek
though this is better for debugging
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aaronpk
the problem with the "order as fallback" approach is it will potentially be reaaaly slow
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tantek
right, need to write up that issue
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ben_thatmustbeme
https://github.com/thephpleague/oauth2-client has lots of other providers ready configured.. should be pretty easy to add those too
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aaronpk
that's why i went with the prompting approach for indieauth.com (which also let me do the relme verification asynchronously which also makes it look faster)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I got "SUCCESS! You verified" which feels - empty? shouldn't it say I verified (domain name) ?
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tantek
e.g. using github
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tantek
aaronpk - makes sense
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tantek
also demos better for explanatory purposes
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, yeah, thats really just testing code when visiting logging in from that page
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ben_thatmustbeme
really nice bit is actually logging in from link= from my homepage
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i don't recommend it until https
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: then you lost some code
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: now try signing in to the wiki with it!
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tantek
when you sign-in on tantek.com/relmeauth it says
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tantek
"You are logged in as http://tantek.com using twitter.com. logout? "
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tantek
though I should s/logged in/signed-in/
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tantek
the point of the separate "relmeath" / or . deployment is to provide a tool to help teach about relmeauth - so it helps to have a more explanatory result upon success.
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tantek
like, what actually succeeded and why
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tantek
also - "logout" helps demonstrate the complete flow
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tantek
so you ought to put that back in too
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, that can be abstracted out. this isn't the relmeauth lib anymore really
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tantek
the HTML and UI looked almost the same though
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tantek
so I was wondering how those pieces got dropped
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, will change.. it started there
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gRegorLove
tantek: Saw the logs /media_checkin criticism. I'm pretty neutral on the term, so I'm fine with a better term. I'm not a big fan of "bookmark" because that means something different to me on the web.
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gRegorLove
I don't have any suggestions offhand.
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gRegorLove
The Goodreads link is "update status" which shows "I am on page [input] —or— I'm finished (link)" followed by a textarea for optional comments.
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i would love to, but the wiki appears to have hard-coded indieauth.com as the endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme
doesn't check my site
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aaronpk
that's what i mean
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aaronpk
indieauth.com checks your site
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh 'Endpoint did not acknowledge it is an authorization endpoint. The endpoint should return an "IndieAuth: authorization" header.'
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: thats still dependant on indieauth.com... not ideal
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ben_thatmustbeme
if indieauth.com goes down, no wiki login
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aaronpk
if the wiki goes down, no wiki login
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aaronpk
it's the same thing
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aaronpk
in this case, indieauth.com is part of the wiki
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aaronpk
i wish i knew how to make this more clear
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aaronpk
i thought i explained it pretty well in Germany
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ben_thatmustbeme
wiki requires indieauth.com rather than "any indieauth client"
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aaronpk
the wiki is letting indieauth.com do the work
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ben_thatmustbeme
exactly the reason i wanted my own auth endpoint
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aaronpk
this is *no different* than the wiki doing the discovery on its own
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aaronpk
it just happens that it's happening on a different domain
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, it is... ask those who have a problem getting to indieauth.com ... i believe there was someone this morning
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aaronpk
yeah that would be hjust as likely if the wiki was doing it itself
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aaronpk
one way to look at this is imagine I launched the indieauth.com app at login.indiewebcamp.com
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aaronpk
jeez maybe i should do that just to make a point
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i get it, and that would be fine
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ben_thatmustbeme
its using indieauth.com as a service, rather than indieauth as a library right now. those are different architecturally
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aaronpk
the wiki is always going to use indieauth.com as a service because there is nothing yo ucan do to compel me to write a mediawiki plugin that supports relmeauth
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aaronpk
i miiiight do it for like $100,000
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ben_thatmustbeme
?? it should just be a difference of looking up the auth endpoint? is it integrated more than indieauth protocol?
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aaronpk
you have to support people who don't specify an endpoint too, who just have relme links
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aaronpk
and then maintain the oauth code in the PHP mediawiki library
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aaronpk
not to mention making an interface that fits inside mediawiki for this
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: so curl, search for endpoint, if not set default to whatever service you like
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: that is what indieauth.com does!!
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ben_thatmustbeme
points back to others with indieauth.com dns trouble
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aaronpk
my point is there will always be problems
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aaronpk
i would rather not maintain a separate code path for logging in to the wiki
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aaronpk
since this way i can focus my efforts on fixing all the signin bugs on indieauth.com rather than making more work for myself
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Zegnat
Seems like I should never have brought up those DNS issues :p
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, Zegnat, no no, better to know the issues
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: just deploying another copy that is with the wiki is fine too
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aaronpk
there is literally no benefit to that, i was making a point
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ben_thatmustbeme
tell that to Zegnat. also i'm assuming these are on the same physical server
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tantek
plus the wiki implements a stricter policy than just any indieauth
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ben_thatmustbeme
in which case, yes
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tantek
e.g. people with domains, no silo sign-ins
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gRegorLove
It sounds like the difference is 2POF bs SPOF? Though I understand the headache of dealing with mediawiki
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gRegorLove
s/bs/vs/
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Loqi
gRegorLove meant to say: It sounds like the difference is 2POF vs SPOF? Though I understand the headache of dealing with mediawiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
i completely agree , mediawiki does not make for easy work
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ben_thatmustbeme
goes about testing other services
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aaronpk
the DNS issue probably had to do with me changing the root nameservers on indieauth.com in order to move DNS from linode to AWS. it could have happened just as easily if I moved the indiewebcamp.com DNS to AWS as well
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ben_thatmustbeme
woodwind and quill look up endpoint, yay
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aaronpk
yes, they implement the indieauth protocol on their own, and don't support relmeauth at all
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: are they hosted on the same machine?
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aaronpk
are what hosted on the same machine?
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ben_thatmustbeme
wiki and indieauth.com?
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gRegorLove
Hmm, maybe something's up with my post, snarfed? Woodwind isn't pulling in the post content, just the title. The parsed mf2 looks ok at a glance, though.
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aaronpk
one of the indieauth.com servers is on the same machine as the wiki, but there are 3 servers now
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ben_thatmustbeme
the other day indieauth.com went down for me too.... i could not log in to anything
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ben_thatmustbeme
which was what sparked all of this for me
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snarfed
gRegorLove: maybe? bridgy shouldn't care though since the FB post has the link
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: you are aware of what i did this whole weekend right?
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aaronpk
*headdesk*
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ben_thatmustbeme
points to baby sitting on his lap
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have been busy
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: you might want to check the weekend logs ;)
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gRegorLove
!tell kylewm Woodwind seems to only pull in the title of my recent blog post. http://reader.kylewm.com/?entry=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2015%2F05%2F1196%2F
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: it's one thing to get your own auth setup so you can sign into your own site without worrying about an external SPOF, it's something else entirely to try to use your own auth setup for all other external sites.
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tantek
e.g. I was able to still post etc. on my site because I run my own relmeauth.php - but I still couldn't see/use the wiki or any of the apps which depend on indieauth.com
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gRegorLove
Laid in a hammock and drank beer, aaronpk? ;)
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aaronpk
there was certainly beer involved ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, exactly. its pretty easy to just search the person's page for an auth endpoint link though
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ben_thatmustbeme
indieauth should allow relmeauth to be basically optional that way
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: pull requests welcome https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth-MediaWiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
indieAuthDomainFromToken($token) i think that would be the only difficult piece
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aaronpk
exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't realize that was a thing you needed
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aaronpk
that's how you verify the login
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aaronpk
otherwise ... there's no security and anyone could just type in anything in the URL field and be logged in
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ben_thatmustbeme
which was why i said "unless you use more than standard indieauth protocol interactions"
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aaronpk
that is the standard protocol interaction
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ben_thatmustbeme
where did /session?token= come in to it?
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aaronpk
that method is poorly named, and it is using hte old indieauth.com API
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aaronpk
that can be changed to /auth?code= now
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ben_thatmustbeme
ahh, okay, then yeah, easy
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ben_thatmustbeme
mm, indeed, that should be post too
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ben_thatmustbeme
and have other options in tthere
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ben_thatmustbeme
redirect, client_id, etc
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aaronpk
yes all of these things are things i don't want to do :P
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solson_
Hi all, I'm interested in the indie web and looking to get started
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solson_
I have read the getting started pages
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solson_
But I have a few questions
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solson_
?
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solson_
I have two websites and I am unsure how this would work with that. Could you have two websites?
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solson_
My son also has a couple websites. Would you have more than one identity?
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KartikPrabhu
solson_ : you can have one as your primary website and connect the others to it via rel-me
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ben_thatmustbeme
or have entirely different identities if you really wanted
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KartikPrabhu
or if you want to keep them separate, you can just pretend they are all different identities
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aaronpk
there is no Real Names policy on the indieweb :)
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Zegnat
I am going to run on 2 different domains, one will be my feed (blog) and the other one is my personal website (identity). I would say: just go for it.
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Zegnat
But prefer subdomains to directories if you are planning something like that. Directories mess with the IndieWebCamp wiki and just cause headaches :p
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bear
aaronpk - coolness with the refactoring! I will finish my ansible work and deploy indieauth.com to the instance I have running tonight!
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KartikPrabhu
Zegnat: so your personal website is not going to have any posts?
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: curious as to what "bookmark" mean to you on the web?
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aaronpk
bear: awesome! also I realized the openid plugin requires memcache so you'll need to add that too :(
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Zegnat
I am not planning to have them there, KartikPrabhu, no.
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bear
no worries
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aaronpk
at least it's an easy one
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bear
getting ruby + bundler to "play nice" with runit was more of a chore
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aaronpk
bear: oh I also remembered that I actually stopped running it with passenger
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bear
I have nginx in front of it
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aaronpk
i'm running it with ruby's puma server listening on a socket, and nginx reverse proxies to that socket
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aaronpk
that made things speed up a ton when I changed that
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bear
what I will need is to get the indieauth.com cert installed
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aaronpk
yeah, I need to make one for your subdomain
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aaronpk
each of these needs its own subdomain so that SMS auth codes get sent back to the right server
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solson_
I was big into blogging back in 2006-2008 and then I just got bored of the whole thing as people seemed to just drift away
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solson_
Is there a way to see a list of who is involved in this indieweb
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aaronpk
bear: can you send me a CSR so I can generate the certificate?
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solson_
?
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solson_
This is really exciting
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solson_
Just heard about it yesterday while I was mowing my lawn and listening to TWIT
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Belated acknowledgement of your belated good morning
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lancey.space
edited /IRC_People (+5) "/* Nicknames */ Updated my icon"
(view diff)
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GWG
solson_: What did they say?
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solson_
Leo just mentioned how the he had a friend using the indie web to take content ownership back and I googled indie web
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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GWG
solson_: Probably KevinMarks
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solson_
It was pretty brief but it caught my attention because I have been concerned for years about how few people were creating good content
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solson_
Yep that was the name
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GWG
solson_: Leo has a Known installation, but I think he only dabbles
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GWG
solson_: Agreed. The idea of not putting so much of myself into a system that I couldn't control was something that resonated with what I was already doing
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gRegorLove
KartikPrabhu: It's what I think is the common definition: a log of URLs I either want to finish reading later or want to easily find later. That's not the same as a physical bookmark in a book to me.
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solson_
ok thanks for the info.
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KartikPrabhu
"want to easily find later" is exactly a physical bookmark in a book :P
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gRegorLove
A book isn't a URL
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KartikPrabhu
sure and the map location of a place is not the place but we use it for checkins anyway
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gRegorLove
A physical bookmark also only tracks the latest position. A "media checkin" or whatever we want to call it is about tracking the history of that
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gRegorLove
In my experience, most web bookmarks end up just being digital hoarding, though. I have so many that I will likely never revisit or go through again to even clean up :)
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KartikPrabhu
"A physical bookmark also only tracks the latest position." you've been using books the wrong way ;)
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gRegorLove
Unless there's some Quantum Bookmarks I haven't heard of.
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KartikPrabhu
you can have multiple bookmarks in one book
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gRegorLove
(This conversation is kind of proving my point about how "bookmark" is overloaded)
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KartikPrabhu
oh bookmark is overloaded, in real life
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KartikPrabhu
that is the issue with copying real life metaphors on the Web.
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gRegorLove
That's why I'm not really a fan of "bookmark" for "reading progress"
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aaronpk
was someone suggesting bookmark for reading progress? I would never call it that
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KartikPrabhu
what is media checkin?
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Loqi
Media check-in is a somewhat controversial concept that refers to a type of virtual check-in post, where the "location" is an item of consumable media such as a book, audio, video, or realtime media such as a radio or TV broadcast https://indiewebcamp.com/media_checkin
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: briefly hinted in that ^
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gRegorLove
tantek seems to have hinted at it before in IRC and on that page.
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aaronpk
hmm odd
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gRegorLove
Perhaps he only meant as far as the markup of it, though
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Zegnat
what is bookmark?
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Loqi
A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is primarily comprised of a URL, often title text from that URL, sometimes optional text describing, tagging, or quoting from its contents https://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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Zegnat
See, Loqi knows, nothing to debate ;)
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aaronpk
also i think tracking reading progress is different from tracking things like "I listend to this song" or "I watched this movie"
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GWG
aaronpk: I refer to them in my plugin as passive kinds.
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GWG
Also a bad name
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gRegorLove
Are there passive-aggressive kinds? :)
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gRegorLove
Honestly I've only experimented with reading progress on my own site a couple times. It's a lower priority for me.
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gRegorLove
I do use it a lot on Goodreads, though, so I'm looking to ultimately track them on my own site.
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Zegnat
I have started different systems for tracking what I read, but nothing ever stuck. I am also not structured enough in my reading.
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Zegnat
This, however, is how I wish I would be tracking my reading: http://fawny.org/reading/
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gRegorLove
Nice, Zegnat
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gRegorLove
Is that generrated automatically from LibraryThing?
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gRegorLove
What is LibraryThing?
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Zegnat
It is not mine, it’s Joe’s. And I would think he is handroling the HTML
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Zegnat
I just wish it were mine ;)
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loqi.me
created /LibraryThing (+66) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433184678678 and dfn added by gRegorLove"
(view diff)
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Zegnat
I read books a lot like I watch films: a small niche genre that I keep revisiting. Not much to track.
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gRegorLove
"currently" could be a generic term for these, though maybe too ambiguous. "currently listening to __ by __" "currently reading __ on page __" etc.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: do you write book reviews on Goodreads? Maybe a good place to start indiewebifying your Goodreads activity
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KartikPrabhu
what is status?
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gRegorLove
Rarely. I haven't in quite a while. But yes, that's an easy one.
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aaronpk
really this is just a log of things
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aaronpk
"checkin" just happens to be a catchy name for logging physical location by venue
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KartikPrabhu
usually "status messages" or "status updates" are what track "currently..."
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aaronpk
like scrobble
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gRegorLove
Goodreads calls them status
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gRegorLove
Which I'm cool with
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aaronpk
"progress posts"?
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gRegorLove
Surprised we don't have /status
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Zegnat
I like KartikPrabhu’s “updates”, but I guess an update is only relevant if you also have an initial status.
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aaronpk
or maybe...these don't need a name :)
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snarfed
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 831 karma
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gRegorLove
"progress" sounds ok, though 'status" could cover both "progress" and "I'm listening to..." type posts.
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aaronpk
my favorite way of solving problems is by removing the problem
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aaronpk
s/the problem/the situation that caused the problem
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: my favorite way of solving problems is by removing the situation that caused the problem
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gRegorLove
(And "status" is already a commonly used term that won't be going away soon)
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Zegnat
Could always just call them “FYIs” or “BTWs”: “BTW, FYI, I’m listening to…”
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: neat! starred
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kylewm
huh, I just noticed one of those Imprints (Austrian rather than German) that was mentioned the other day http://lucumr.pocoo.org/about/#imprint
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Loqi
kylewm: gRegorLove left you a message 2 hours, 16 minutes ago: Woodwind seems to only pull in the title of my recent blog post. http://reader.kylewm.com/?entry=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2F2015%2F05%2F1196%2F http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433181790407
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kylewm
gRegorLove: i see the full text, pictures, and all. did it resolve itself on your end?
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kylewm
gRegorLove: hmm, ok i see that the text is missing in the Atom version
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gRegorLove
Nope. Hm. just noticed a JS error: Uncaught ReferenceError: WS_TOPIC is not defined
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gRegorLove
inveestigates
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Zegnat
Yes, kylewm, the German Wikipedia about the imprints mentions there is a requirement in Austria as well (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressumspflicht#Recht_in_.C3.96sterreich)
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Zegnat
I just wish there was some proper information to link to other than the same quotations of legalese over and over :(
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gRegorLove
I don't get how that's a mismatched tag. What am I missing?
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kylewm
gRegorLove: <img> isn't properly closed
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gRegorLove
Oh bother
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kylewm
indeed
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KevinMarks
that is the trouble with xhtml - you get draconian behaviour
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kylewm
Zegnat: Digital Ocean just opened a big data center in Frankfurt, do you think this applies to any site hosted there??
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Loqi
KevinMarks: kylewm left you a message 5 hours, 18 minutes ago: should I be using your fork of feedparser in Woodwind? like, will it do a better job finding podcast enclosures etc? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433171422729
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Zegnat
kylewm: I can of course not give legal advice. But let me dig up what a German hosting company told me earlier today.
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Zegnat
I m not going to name the hosting provider, and again, no legal advice, IANAL, IANYL, etc. etc.
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Zegnat
“If you are just hosting your website in germany, but it's not in german and not targeted at a german audience, you probably don't need to have an Impressum at all. Again, the german laws are fuzzy on the matter what constitues "targeted at a german audience".”
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aaronpk
since nobody except highly paid lawyers can give legal advice, and the regulation is written in legalese, i'm guessing this doesn't actually matter in practice
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kylewm
legalese? looks more like German to me
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kylewm
ba-dum-ch
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aaronpk
hmm what's the german word for legalese? :)
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gRegorLove
instantrimshot.com
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Zegnat
It matters in so much as bloggers have reported getting threatening letters from lawyers when they forget about the imprint. Of course they will try and get you to settle out of court. Something you will want to do as the fines go up to 50000 EUR.
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aaronpk
wow. whose lawyers?
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aaronpk
of course there's a german word for legalese... "Juristensprache"
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aaronpk
not as cute tho
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gRegorLove
Got it sorted, kylewm. Expect it will show up after the cache clears. Thanks!
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Zegnat
Small fry lawyers I guess, people don’t like to discuss those details. But I guess it is a scheme much like those threatening letters you get for illegally downloading stuff in other countries.
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Zegnat
It is pretty ironic that I started researching this for a domain “licit.li” ;)
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aaronpk
i mean who is sending the letters tho? lawyers representing the german government? or just random lawyers?
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Zegnat
random lawyers
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kylewm
yes sounds very reminiscent of RIAA/MPAA lawsuits
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aaronpk
how in the world can a random lawyer file a lawsuit against a blogger for not having the impressum, unless the lawyer represents the government?!
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KevinMarks
how do they have standing though?
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Zegnat
Random lawyer contacts you that you are not complying to TMG. TMG is a law that protects “consumers” (the lawyer is a consumer of your site). So they will file a civil suit against you unless you settle with them right there.
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Zegnat
At least that’s usually how it goes. Or so I hear.
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aaronpk
that just sounds like a giant scam
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Zegnat
Still scares the crap out of people though.
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Zegnat
It might be worth contacting Digital Ocean though, they might be more willing to comment on this than the small hosting company I was talking with
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KevinMarks
sounds like the ADA stuff in CA
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kylewm
exactly what i was going to say
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Zegnat
KevinMarks: link?
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Zegnat
Ah, yes, accessibility laws are also prone to this effect
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Zegnat
I seem to vaguely recall a case where someone sued a website for not subtitling their videos.
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Zegnat
And the link gRegorLove mentions there is one of the few English articles I found too. Basically it makes small law firms into cease-and-desist-shakedown offices.
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Zegnat
I considered setting up a IndieWebCamp page about this, but I am really not qualified to do so and I don’t think IndieWebCamp should try to give advice concerning this.
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Zegnat
On the other hand, we do urge people to strike out on the web alone, and they can get into trouble if they do not know about local law. Like fkooman admitted earlier today.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: the same thing happens in the US with the ADA (disability protection law), among other things
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: not to mention patent trolls
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: Zegnat++
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aaronpk
who is wirres.net?
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: aaronpk: diplix
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aaronpk
!tell diplix you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people! :-)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
!tell diplix what embedding thingy are you using for your site? I noticed it found a random user photo as the "featured" photo for my post http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7733/1/51/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: looking at the wiki code, you stopped using the authenticate() function from wordpress, was there any issue with it, or was it just to simplify things?
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aaronpk
wordpress?
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/wordpress/mediawiki/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: aaronpk: looking at the wiki code, you stopped using the authenticate() function from mediawiki, was there any issue with it, or was it just to simplify things?
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ben_thatmustbeme
overtired these days
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aaronpk
oh I think it was just an unneeded step
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Zegnat
aaronpk: when Loqi copies slack chat here, does it register the karma increase?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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aaronpk
Zegnat: no, i haven't figured out the best way to hook that up yet
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aaronpk
Zegnat++ there you go
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Loqi
Zegnat has 2 karma
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Zegnat
is happy to be able to do 2 bad deeds now
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kylewm
manual karma transfer until it hurts :)
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Zegnat
aaronpk: do you recommend StartSSL even with them charging for revocations?
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bear
zegnat: I do
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bear
one of the very few ssl cert vendors that actually verifies identity
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Zegnat
bear: can you elaborate? All I know is I wouldn’t mind dropping a free SSL on my domain.
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bear
if you get registered as a user for the paid certs then they actually call you to make sure your info is accurate
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Zegnat
hm, I’ll give that a look.
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Zegnat
I don’t really like the paying-for-revocation though, with all the SSL attacks popping up lately
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ben_thatmustbeme
well, basically rolled that commit back, but I have a version that I think corrects it
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ben_thatmustbeme
but of course no version of the wiki installed
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ben_thatmustbeme
so don't know precisely if it works or not
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aaronpk
i've been using startssl for everything cause i need so many certs and it would be super expensive otherwise
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: would you prefer a pull request although untested?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i know the pieces all work (tested those on their own) but I don't have a full mediawiki setup
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: sure, i might be able to test it tonight
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aaronpk
i'm still going to point out there isnt really a benefit to this change
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aaronpk
s/benefit/functional benefit
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: i'm still going to point out there isnt really a functional benefit to this change
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm still going to point to Zegnat and say yes there is. and thats just one example and i can think of others
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ben_thatmustbeme
but mainly its about breaking any dependance
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aaronpk
it's not a dependency any more than relying on the curl module for php is
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ben_thatmustbeme
and removes an unneeded step for those that don't want to use indieauth.com.
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ben_thatmustbeme
except CURL isn't a service that can go down
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tantek
curl as a service, hmmm...
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ben_thatmustbeme
lol, tantek, but you have to curl the service to use it :P
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aaronpk
indieauth.com is more likely to be available than the wiki now
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ben_thatmustbeme
and for those that want to set up another wiki?
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tantek
aaronpk: probably good since so many indie web apps depend on indieauth now
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aaronpk
that has nothing to do with this
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ben_thatmustbeme
well you made it its own git repo
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aaronpk
the plugin?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess people might want to use that plugin
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tantek
this conversation is confusing
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aaronpk
they can go change the url to whatever indieauth.com-like api they want
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Zegnat
Very confusing. So I’m stepping out before I am used as argument again ;) Will be back the 3rd probably, after my exam. Good night :)
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Loqi
see you in the morning!
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ben_thatmustbeme
good night Zegnat
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aaronpk
i made it a config option in the omniauth gem. it should be a config option in this plugin too
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aaronpk
this is confusing because indieauth.com does two distinct things, and does them in a very similar way
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ben_thatmustbeme
it does more than 2, but what 2 are you referring to?
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aaronpk
it would be clearer if the API that websites can use was distinctly different from the new /IndieAuthProtocol API
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aaronpk
and also if i had not called it indieauth.com
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ben_thatmustbeme
this commit is to basically make it the protocol, not the .com
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aaronpk
right. and normally you'd lose all the relmeauth functionality this way, and require people put an authorization_endpoint on their sites
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tantek
!tell aaronpk,kylewm do your readers use the results of a mf2 parser to look for alternates for Atom/RSS - or do you do your own parsing / scraping for those link rels?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
because the indieauth.com API is very similar to the IndieAuth protocol, indieauth.com can be used as a "fallback" when the user doesn't have their own authorization endpoint
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: do your readers use the results of a mf2 parser to look for alternates for Atom/RSS - or do you do your own parsing / scraping for those link rels? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433194869698
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: thats why i left default_endpoint there
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ben_thatmustbeme
which makes perfect sense
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ben_thatmustbeme
auth endpoints don't have to be relmeauth for that matter, which gets interesting
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aaronpk
i believe all other IndieAuth endpoints do not implement relmeauth
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ben_thatmustbeme
mine does now
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ben_thatmustbeme
at least for 1 site
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tantek
anyone here object to dropping the "alternates" collection from the parsed microformats2 JSON output? (and using rels + rel-urls to look them up instead?)
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aaronpk
i am using the "alternates" but it's kind of sad that it doesn't know about the type
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aaronpk
i'd rather use rel-urls
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tantek
(note that a utility function could recreate an "alternates" collection from "rel-urls")
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aaronpk
yeah right now i show an RSS icon regardless of what the alternate is, but it's fine cause you can't actually subscribe to those in monocle yet ;)
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tantek
ok cool - and since you could never depend on the "alternates" key being there, your code won't fail when it's not
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tantek
in other news I've also joined the W3C's Pubsubhubbub community group - if you're interested in PuSH, and already have a W3C login, you may want to join too: https://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/ - let's support julien51 in his efforts here
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tantek
(looks very low traffic btw)
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tantek
what is PuSH
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Loqi
PubSubHubbub (PuSH) is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to streams and legacy feed files in real time https://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH
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tantek.com
edited /PubSubHubbub (+794) "update Discussion with actual links to where discussion occurs, link to W3C Community Group, move old "complex" discussion point to an Issues section and note historical context vs. deployment today"
(view diff)
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kylewm
tantek: I use both rel-urls (to look for rel=feed) and alternates; combining them would be great
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Loqi
kylewm: tantek left you a message 43 minutes ago: do your readers use the results of a mf2 parser to look for alternates for Atom/RSS - or do you do your own parsing / scraping for those link rels? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433194869698
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tantek
kylewm: thanks - yes current spec says that alternates are included in rel-urls, and glennjones's tests say so too
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tantek
assuming implementations catch up, ok with dropping "alternates"?
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@drushti22
#ownyourdata #Alteryx #inspire15 #useready https://instagram.com/p/3Z6Zaphg8R/
(twtr.io/1054wseUfxb)
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kylewm
finds it very hard to believe that 95% of teens 13-17 used facebook in 2012
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KartikPrabhu
maybe 95% of teens in the US who they surveyed ;)
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aaronpk
was the survey distributed via facebook?
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KevinMarks
how did they measure it? # of teen accounts compared to population?
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KevinMarks
'cos lots have multiple accounts
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KevinMarks
so, who is using "alternates" in their microformats code?
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tantek
KevinMarks - yes I was asking that earlier as we were debating in #microformats :) see logs