#indiewebcamp 2015-06-18

2015-06-18 UTC
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aaronpk endi: just add a link to your actual PGP key on keybase.io, not your keybase.io profile
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aaronpk e.g. <a href="https://keybase.io/aaronpk/key.asc" rel="pgpkey">
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aaronpk otherwise you're asking every relmeauth implementation to add another silo
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aaronpk there's even instructions on how to use the keybase command line client to sign the challenge https://indieauth.com/gpg
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endi ah ok
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endi hmm by that logic should there not be zero authentication providers?
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aaronpk twitter and github are there for people who don't want to set up PGP stuff
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endi gotcha
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (-2) "Update: we're in the main common area!" (view diff)
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endi I just like the idea of keybase.io being that as well. they're a fresh take on WoT and IndieAuth is in a way establishing WoT with identification via URL and authentication via twitter etc
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aaronpk not really sure how that relates to having your own domain name
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endi in any case setting up rel="pgpkey" is a great idea. and paying attention is another good idea.. accidentally redirected <VirtualHost *:80> to "https://www.example.com"
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KevinMarks__ Does github make your pgp key linkable?
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aaronpk they don't host PGP keys afaik
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aaronpk your SSH public keys are all at a URL tho https://github.com/aaronpk.keys
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015/Guest_List (+177) "add tito rsvp" (view diff)
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acegiak morning all!
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acegiak kylewm: salmentions seem to be working perfectly: https://acegiak.net/2015/06/17/12998/
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tantek hello from HWC SF!
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tantek acegiak++ congrats!
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Loqi acegiak has 23 karma
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tantek does that mean we now have two implementations of sending AND receiving salmentions?
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kylewm acegiak: oh you are parsing them too now?
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kylewm that's awesome!
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acegiak kylewm: yeah I did that... last friday?
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aaronpk wow
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acegiak I got home from playing games at midnight and then decided to implement recieving salmentions instead of sleeping :P
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acegiak it's not the best most elegant solution and still needs work but it does the thing: https://github.com/acegiak/Semantic-Linkbacks/commit/7e1f757e74f9bb724b5ec52745209c3a378bce69
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kylewm acegiak: know why it's not getting your avatar?
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acegiak kylewm: cause I don't entirely understand how wordpress stores the avatar for comments
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GWG acegiak: What do you want to know?
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kylewm oh hah ok :) i have been futzing with the markup so i wasn't sure
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acegiak kylewm: no I pull the avatar field from you just fine
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acegiak GWG: Is there a meta field that the avatar is stored in? Looking at the semantic linkbacks code it seems to be generated on the fly with a filter?
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KevinMarks_ acegiak++
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Loqi acegiak has 24 karma
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GWG acegiak: the URL for it is stored in 'semantic_linkbacks_avatar'.
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acegiak GWG: which is a meta field for the comment? ok cool
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KevinMarks_ kylewm, does woodwind show salmentions too?
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GWG acegiak: Correct.
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GWG acegiak: I submitted a PR for changing how the plugin handled the avatar which is now in there
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tantek aaronpk: I signed up for the tito for IWC PDX and didn't see a webhook mention here
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kylewm KevinMarks_: hmm, no, I don't think I understand how it would? :)
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aaronpk tantek: you signed up before i had the webhook defined, but it is also not working yet :)
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aaronpk I've been talking with the tito people trying to debug it
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acegiak KevinMarks_: does anyone have a reader that displays comments?
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acegiak adds to whisperfollow itch list
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aaronpk acegiak: monocle displays comment count
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acegiak neat!
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kylewm aaronpk: comment count as of when?
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aaronpk since the beginning
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aaronpk and like / repost count
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KevinMarks_ when you parse the h-entry, look for comments?
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acegiak so as of now then
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kylewm hah, no i mean, how often does it check for new comments
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aaronpk oh, only when it gets a PuSH ping
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KevinMarks_ PuSH ping or next poll, presumably
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kylewm Monocle doesn't poll right?
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aaronpk so if your site accepts a comment and updates the page, monocle expects to receive a PuSH notification about that
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kylewm oh interesting, very much parallel to salmentions
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ehlovader.com edited /IRC_People (+109) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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ehlovader Hello strangers
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tantek greetings ehlovader!
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (+26) "rsvp" (view diff)
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ehlovader Finally got around to quickly throwing together that indieauth stuff
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aaronpk refresh my memory?
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ehlovader not sure I will have any time but gotta start somewhere.
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ehlovader I was in here awhile back, maybe a year. Had opinions, ideas, but little time or interest in dogfooding.
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tantek but now more time?
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tantek ehlovader: here's a good start for that! https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself
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ehlovader Was asked to setup my handle on the wiki if I stuck around, or at least if I wanted to contribute to the convo. So I left.
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tantek ehlovader: it's ok, there's definitely a focus in this community on setting up and using your own web based identity
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ehlovader yup
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ehlovader I respected that
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ehlovader didn't have time, was a bit tumultuous for me. Life was changing and the personal projects were on hold.
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tantek ehlovader cool - if you're able to have time to work on it, since you've got editing the wiki working, go ahead and start adding to your user page per https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself !
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ehlovader things are settling down
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ehlovader but not quite quiet. Just better.
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tantek we're about the start our biweekly Homebrew Website Club meetups and notes - feel free to lurk, or if you have any specific questions about or get stuck on https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself definitely ask questions!
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ehlovader side bar, I actually knew gRegorLove irl. Through a friend. was pleased to have run into him again at random through here.
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ehlovader so I should probably check out https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself you say?
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tantek yeah!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I finally got automatic sending of webmentions in my replay posts working instead of using curl (twitter.com/_/status/611346715296296960)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the same one click that says "publish this, call pubsubhubbub, send to twitter" now sends webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/611346852118663168)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: in the preview UI that I have, it also now shows who will get webmentions when I post (twitter.com/_/status/611346981051629568)
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aaronpk oh that's neat
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: My CMS is called Falcon, and the open source part is Cassis (twitter.com/_/status/611347125843136512)
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/benjamenwalker/status/611215853846175746
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@benjamenwalker Whoa... Celeste adapted Andrew's iphone screen for our show image https://twitter.com/benjamenwalker/status/611215853846175746/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/611215853846175746)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: a later iteration would be to do these asynchronously and update the UI as they happen. (twitter.com/_/status/611347484774912000)
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gRegorLove Hi again, ehlovader o/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: you can curl http://t.co/x3YH7tFeBZ] to archive a post (twitter.com/_/status/611348774988988417)
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ehlovader Hi how have things been?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: you can curl http://t.co/3OIKAizGBX] to archive a post (twitter.com/_/status/611348938562646017)
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KevinMarks_ note 'save' rather than 'web'
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tantek hey ehlovader I see you joined #indiechat - that's probably better for such informal conversation - thanks!
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ehlovader perfect
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ehlovader would discussing the archive talk KevinMarks brought up be appropriate for here?
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ehlovader webcite is another source for archiving pages that is probably more in line with the well formated data the IWC movement really enjoys
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ehlovader http://www.webcitation.org/archive.php
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: medium is being indieweb friendly by creating 'originally on' links per http://tantek.com/2015/168/t2/five-words-permalink-that-make-silo-post (twitter.com/_/status/611349692581027840)
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tantek ehlovader: do you use it on your own site?
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ehlovader it was built more for citation purposes, but maintains an archive of the page from when you ask them to store it
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ehlovader I don't on my site.
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ehlovader check my site out some time
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ehlovader not much to archive
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ehlovader but i have used it as a resource for recovering pages I had found in the past
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@mshook RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: you can curl http://t.co/3OIKAizGBX] to archive a post (twitter.com/_/status/611349984068415488)
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ehlovader or literary works which are more likely to be archived there
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tantek what is archival?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archival" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=archival&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-17%2Fline%2F1434592189494
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tantek huh
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aaronpk archival? that is not the first version of that term that comes to mind
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aaronpk what is archive?
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Loqi archive in the context of the indieweb refers to date-grouped (often monthly) sets of posts (AKA personal historical archives, a common form of navigation), but can sometimes mean archival copy, a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time https://indiewebcamp.com/archive
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ehlovader archival copy
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tantek.com created /archival (+27) "r" (view diff)
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ehlovader what is archival copy
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Loqi An archival copy is a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time, that can be used as a reference if the original disappears or is temporarily unavailable https://indiewebcamp.com/archival_copy
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aaronpk nice
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ehlovader wan't me to update that?
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tantek ehlovader: feel free to add to the page
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ehlovader doesn't have internet archive in there explicitly?
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ehlovader is there a reason
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ehlovader should I go to off topic to discuss?
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tantek all wiki pages are incomplete :)
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ehlovader seems like it would fall under services as much as anything
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ehlovader ofc they are
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ehlovader that is a wiki
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ehlovader like human knowledge they can never be truly done
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ehlovader or complete
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ehlovader I can dump them
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tantek sure, add to Services section on the page
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ehlovader how is the community feel about orphaned links? making them to record something and come back later to create a stub or more detailed post ok?
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ehlovader would you count caches? they are archives of a sort
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tantek typically we prefer to focus on things people are actually using on their own websites
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ehlovader I remember
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ehlovader that is why I left
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tantek rather than bunches of random pages - usually those get deleted
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aaronpk i'm making the 2015 schedule grid... should I add NYC there?
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ehlovader no website no things
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ehlovader I have lots of knowledge on things that could be used
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ehlovader various methods
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tantek aaronpk - ask GWG
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ehlovader would be willing to share
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tantek ehlovader: share once you've put the knowledge to practice on your own site
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ehlovader but doesn't behoove me to use all of them
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ehlovader then I shall keep it
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tantek until then, it would be considered hypothetical
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tantek yeah - there's a lot of such knowledge out there, especially with federated / social / distributed / decentralized etc. type stuff
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ehlovader I have six archival copy services that you haven't documented
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ehlovader wait, five, you have internet archive somewhere
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ehlovader just not in the services
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aaronpk this isn't wikipedia, this wiki is focused on people's own use of various tools
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ehlovader not the tools people could use?
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ehlovader no wonder I don't see any complete solutions in there
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aaronpk no, because those types of lists decay too quickly
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there's 2 forces working against feeds —laziness in that we already have html pages that everyone can see; a feed is more work (twitter.com/_/status/611351710850805760)
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ehlovader perhaps, I feel it is worth getting the conversation started, to grow the opportunity
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aaronpk if you want complete lists of things, wikipedia is good for that. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CRM_systems
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Loqi [bridgy] Susie Kay RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/101890076819383#10153429489107028)
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ehlovader going into lurk mode
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ehlovader mention of you needed to know about those.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: from the large company perspective they don't see the RoI on feeds - why are we making these? (twitter.com/_/status/611351851674533889)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jdavid: doesn't the code for a feed come for free with a CMS? (twitter.com/_/status/611351951666716675)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: No code is free - if you add a feature to your CMS the feed now needs changing too (twitter.com/_/status/611352071455903744)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: Apple just announced a news app, but the publishers can't do the bizdev deals with feeds (twitter.com/_/status/611352240222289920)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jdavid: How do we provide economic incentive to keep the web open? (twitter.com/_/status/611352328902459392)
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @jdavid: How do we provide economic incentive to keep the web open? (twitter.com/_/status/611352425702690816)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jdavid: I'm going to lose Yahoo pipes soon, and I use it (twitter.com/_/status/611352426159996928)
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ehlovader aaronpk who is using webrecorder?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jdavid: Yahoo pipes can take a while to render the pipe (twitter.com/_/status/611352539649449985)
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tantek ehlovader: someone (forgot his name) who has come to a few Homebrew Website Meetups
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ehlovader gotcha
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aaronpk normally there is a list of "Indieweb Examples" on the main page for a project. looks like that doesn't have one tho
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ehlovader without the story of how it is used, archival copy is just a list
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aaronpk i agree that is not the best page on the wiki :)
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ehlovader yup
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: could you use Pubsubhubbub to provide a Pipes equivalent without the lag? (twitter.com/_/status/611352817220067328)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: barnaby built a pipes competitor a while ago at https://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/ (twitter.com/_/status/611353010317475840)
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tantek ehlovader: anyway - if updating various wiki pages is a personal itch for you, you can capture that in an "Itches" section on your user page
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tantek per /wikifying
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ehlovader figured that would be against the intentions
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tantek you can have both community related itches/working on, and personal site related too
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ehlovader yup
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ehlovader so far I have typed up finish this page, and blogging
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tantek ehlovader: e.g. feel free to copy from the split of such things on my user page: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com#working_on
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: barnaby built a pipes competitor a while ago at https://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/ (twitter.com/_/status/611353394150789121)
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tantek ehlovader: great - start with saving that, even a two item list is a good start!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: google has a thing that bids against google ads for you to pay the site directly (twitter.com/_/status/611353501076201473)
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ehlovader.com created /User:Ehlovader.com (+300) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">[http://ehlovader.com/ Joseph Richardson]</span> is a web developer in the Ann Arbor, MI area. I was instantly intrigued by IWC interesting after discovering..."" (view diff)
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ehlovader.com edited /User:Ehlovader.com (-12) (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I saw @ftrain's wonderful article on code this week and I'd love to send him $5 for it (twitter.com/_/status/611353885983305729)
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ehlovader should have checked minor that last one
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ehlovader :-/
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ehlovader night
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I've suggested a "pay me" page that links to various payment services that you accept so you can use it to send money (twitter.com/_/status/611354057240879105)
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tantek what is payment?
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Loqi payment in the context of the indieweb refers to a feature on an indie web site that provides a way for the visitor to that website to pay (currency, gift card credit, etc.) the person represented by that indie web site https://indiewebcamp.com/payment
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the idea is to do it like this: https://indiewebcamp.com/payment (twitter.com/_/status/611354232457949184)
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aaronparecki.com created /2015/Schedule (+4493) "stub 2015 schedule" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jdavid: one of the things that facebook does that twitter dowsn't is personalising the news feed (twitter.com/_/status/611355199777697792)
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tantek jdavid, note: making my own payment page for my own site is currently 3rd in my list of "Itches" http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Payment_Links
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acegiak GWG: Do you happen to know how semantic linkbacks avoids duplicating comments?
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acegiak ok! added avatar support to semantic linkbacks salmentions
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acegiak https://github.com/acegiak/Semantic-Linkbacks/commit/9a6b9a501e2a705374a1d6dde3ada3018d86812d
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ehlovader.com edited /User:Ehlovader.com (+8) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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ehlovader.com edited /User:Ehlovader.com (-4) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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tantek what is salmentions
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Loqi Salmentions are a way to pass comments upstream by sending a webmention from a reply post to the original post when the reply recieves a comment https://indiewebcamp.com/Salmentions
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tantek.com edited /Salmentions (+379) "add IndieWeb Examples with stubs for kyle and acegiak - need specific permalinks!" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm, acegiak could you fill in with your permalinks of your first salmentions, both sendings and receivings? https://indiewebcamp.com/Salmentions#IndieWeb_Examples
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk man I do not understand what twitter is doing with showing replies to a post
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aaronpk there appear to be blue lines connecting some posts, sometimes there is a "view other replies" link that pops up a window
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aaronpk sometimes there are large separators
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tantek take screenshots, upload with dated URLs (e.g. starting with YYYY-MM-DD-…. ), and document on /Twitter
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aaronpk need a bigger monitor to take effective screenshots
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aaronpk will do when i am back home
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tantek but in general that's the approach to take when you encounter silo behaviors that seem curious / not understandable etc.
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aaronpk i think it's trying to hide replies to replies to replies under the "view other replies" link
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aaronpk an interesting alternative to threading/nesting
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acegiak.net edited /Salmentions (+216) "/* Ashton Macallan */ Added permalinks" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: micropub and indieauth are now on by default in https://withknown.com/ so ti is much easier (twitter.com/_/status/611360963284074498)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: also @erinjo has built a new theme for Known that has a rich preview of photos and maps (twitter.com/_/status/611361159682371585)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: the other thing has been to publish out from Known with micropub to other sites, including othwr Known (twitter.com/_/status/611361314762555393)
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acegiak.net edited /Template:acegiak (+87) (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: will this also work with https://silo.pub/ ? (twitter.com/_/status/611361474620096512)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: yes we will make this work too (twitter.com/_/status/611361527606734848)
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acegiak.net edited /Salmentions (+1) "/* Ashton Macallan */ updating url to https" (view diff)
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acegiak So I benwerd got me thinking about owning your mood data again: https://acegiak.net/2015/06/18/is-there-an-app-that-helps-with-chronic-low-self-esteem-serious-question-facing-up-to-some-things-about-myself/
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Loqi acegiak: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: could you fill in with your permalinks of your first salmentions, both sendings and receivings? https://indiewebcamp.com/Salmentions#IndieWeb_Examples http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-17/line/1434594291117
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acegiak And a lot of mood trackers just let you enter freetext and then get you to enter things like what your situation was that influenced that
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tantek acegiak sounds like a note
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acegiak tantek: yeah I was trying to work out how that differs from a note
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acegiak I was thinking about just having a mood meta field to attach to other post types
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acegiak but that's not actually semantically correct
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tantek what is marginalia?
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Loqi Marginalia are interactions or responses to arbitrary parts of a post, in contrast to a traditional comment which refers to the entire post https://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia
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tantek jdavid ^^^
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acegiak because you're feeling a mood and doing a thing. the two activities are actually distinct rather than one being a property of another
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acegiak tantek: there's a weird effect whereby in my experience at least, having a structure for the data means I'm more likely to log it
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acegiak I think what I actually need to do is add a custom post kind
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@benwerd Homebrew Website Club at Mozilla San Francisco. #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/611366144352481280/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/611366144352481280)
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@kevinmarks notes from tonights Homebrew Website Club on my own site: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-06-17.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/611366359948079105)
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tantek acegiak - you could also prototype with just plain notes
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aaronpk HWC PDX! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/06/17/5/hwc
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Kongaloosh noob problem: trying to get syndication with quill going. I've got it picking up the sites I want to syndicate to... what do I need to do next?
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2015-06-17-hwc-pdx.jpg]]""
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aaronpk Kongaloosh: all Quill does is pass the values back to your micropub endpoint
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aaronparecki.com edited /File:2015-06-17-hwc-pdx.jpg (+56) (view diff)
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Kongaloosh aaronpk: cool, thanks
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (+33) "/* Photos */ add pdx!" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu Kongaloosh: as aaronpk said it is really up to your micirpub enpoint to handle syndication and all that
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (+48) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme Wow. Removing the Twitter widget from my phone. .. the first 9 tweets were all "promoted" tweets
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KartikPrabhu has no "social media" on phone :)
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aaronpk 9?!
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acegiak I have a link to whisperfollow on my homescreen
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acegiak it doesn't help me bad habit of checking every few minutes
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KartikPrabhu recent article I read about "too much notifications" http://blog.longreads.com/2015/06/16/how-apples-transcendent-chihuahua-killed-the-revolution/
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acegiak that headline is amazing
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: just saw your name on the lumen docs repo, are you using that?
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acegiak I'm gonna reinstall emotionsense and see how they do things again
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@DeanLand RT @kevinmarks: notes from tonights Homebrew Website Club on my own site: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-06-17.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/611392332466946048)
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endi ben_thatmustbeme: try Falcon 3 on android; Tweetbot on iOS. both are great UX and no ads/promoted that I've ever seen
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Jeena ok aaronpk now I really used the right scheme and everything but still no luck, it says it doesn't find a backlink https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/LeMFrwvE
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KevinMarks_ acegiak: livejournal had mood for all posts
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KevinMarks_ also avatar image sets that changed with mood
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tantek with icon though right?
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tantek what is mood?
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Loqi mood is sometimes expressed explicitly in or about a post, by the post author https://indiewebcamp.com/mood
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tantek huh
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KevinMarks_ wow, lots of choices: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-06-17.html
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KevinMarks_ er
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KevinMarks_ http://www.livejournal.com/moodlist.bml
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KevinMarks_ the LJ pov is that a mood is context, like date or location I think
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GWG tantek, aaronpk: Still no venue. Stumped. Made contacts unsuccessfully. Other than me paying for a venue....nothing. So...as of now, unless a white knight arrives...I don't know.
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GWG Sorry for the delayed response, still jetlagged days later. I fell asleep
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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jonnybarnes aaronpk, yup, making a simple push server
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jonnybarnes github.com/jonnybarnes/push-lumen
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jonnybarnes but the tests don't work at the moment because of an issue with Mockery
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cweiske hey, the third one :)
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cweiske jonnybarnes, what do you use as queue system?
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jonnybarnes cweiske, currently set up to use the database, I figured for the time being that would cope the amount of hits *my* push server would get
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cweiske then how to you load off the push subscription verification?
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cweiske the spec says you have to do it in parallel
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cweiske see https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/28
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cweiske "Also, the validation is inherently async because the publisher can take days before confirming that subscription is allowed..."
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jonnybarnes "publisher confirming subscription allowed" what? I missed that part
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cweiske that's probably for social networks
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cweiske alice wants to subscribe to bob's feed
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cweiske and bob decides if he wants that
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jonnybarnes yeah, I don't think my push server currently lets bob decide that
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cweiske useful for private feeds
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cweiske mine neither :)
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jonnybarnes I also haven't done any hub.secret stuff yet
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cweiske small steps
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jonnybarnes ah there we go, one single sentence in the spec: "The Hub MAY also check with the publisher whether the subscription should be accepted."
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GWG I have once again broke the...No Pull Requests in the wee hours of the morning rule.
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jonnybarnes what rule is that?
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GWG The rule I imposed on myself after I did something stupid?
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GWG Things that seem like a good idea at 3AM do not always after you next wake up
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cweiske don't drink and code
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GWG I don't drink.
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GWG But same idea
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@JeffreyKeefer @richardtape Do you mean IndieWeb or Social when it shares new posts via social media? Thanks! #TWP15 (twitter.com/_/status/611481798262943744)
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@Bali_Maha @JeffreyKeefer @jimgroom @cogdog @timmmmyboy @clhendricksbc u may be using too many things w indieweb plug-in so difficult to debug (twitter.com/_/status/611485253169975296)
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@Bali_Maha @JeffreyKeefer @jimgroom @cogdog @timmmmyboy @clhendricksbc can't remember but it's also awful. All webmentions r spam! Too lazy to unspam (twitter.com/_/status/611485791072714752)
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jonnybarnes I’m testing out Firefox GTK3 with a dark Gnome theme and now my new notes form is unreadable :/
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jonnybarnes http://i.imgur.com/6zboNkp.png
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cweiske that's what you get from relying on system standard colors :)
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@JeffreyKeefer @Bali_Maha @jimgroom @cogdog @timmmmyboy @clhendricksbc Odd, but even when turned all IndieWeb off, still had the issues. (twitter.com/_/status/611488555802595329)
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jonnybarnes I don't know how to control the stryle of the input buttons though
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@JeffreyKeefer @cleantalk_en Q: https://www.brid.gy/ is blocked but I want to fully unblock. It is used by IndieWeb. How can I whitelist the domain? (twitter.com/_/status/611489715708104704)
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@JeffreyKeefer @cleantalk_en Help! In blocking https://www.brid.gy/ CleanTalk effectively disables IndieWeb. How can I get this domain unblocked? (twitter.com/_/status/611493056420950017)
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dym.cx edited /mood (-1) "/* Silo Examples */" (view diff)
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dym.cx edited /mood (+1288) "+List of moods used by LiveJournal" (view diff)
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JonathanNeal What does it look like when someone very untechsavvy joins the indieweb?
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Loqi JonathanNeal: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 5/2 at 3:22pm: made a UI for fragmentions. Select text to see it: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia also code: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/fragmentioner http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02/line/1430605352772
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GWG JonathanNeal: It looks like the guy who has been tweeting me?
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JonathanNeal GWG: link?
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GWG https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffreyKeefer
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JonathanNeal That still looks a bit technical.
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GWG Okay
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JonathanNeal Blocking and unblocking services isn’t in the venacular of Facebook culture, which I would consider the typical social but untech crowd. Maybe that’s a bias limited by my own perspectiv.
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JonathanNeal s/perspectiv/perspective
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Loqi JonathanNeal meant to say: Blocking and unblocking services isn’t in the venacular of Facebook culture, which I would consider the typical social but untech crowd. Maybe that’s a bias limited by my own perspective.
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JonathanNeal I was just wondering what the smoothest path is for someone like my wife. If one day she said “I’m sick of Facebook, but I want to (share pictures, send messages to friends); could I realistically say “go here, press the button, now you own your data, and you can do all of those things, haev fun”
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GWG Known?
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JonathanNeal Not sure what you mean./
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GWG What is Known?
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Loqi Known is an open publishing / community platform project https://indiewebcamp.com/Known
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tantek GWG, it can be tough getting a venue - I'll try to reach out to some contacts again
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tantek also - when was the last time you spoke with Jeremy (fomerly of NYT)?
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tantek KevinMarks: you were pointing out that many blogs had a summary or subhead or something like it in their UI and/or feed files. Did that ever get captured on the wiki?
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tantek what is a subhead?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "subhead" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=subhead&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434635975912
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tantek what is a summary?
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Loqi A summary is short text that conveys a post's main point(s), or a plain text equivalent for kinds of posts like likes and RSVPs that use other properties to convey their meaning https://indiewebcamp.com/summary
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tantek KevinMarks, mostly wondering if you have a (UI / user-centric) term for that "feature" of blogs that we can then document on the wiki with examples etc.
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rhiaro Is poking on facebook still a thing? Has anyone attempted an indieweb equivalent? I imagine not, but you never know..
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rhiaro what is poking?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "poking" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=poking&summary=prompted+by+rhiaro+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434636291794
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@JeffreyKeefer @cleantalk_en I did that, though it seemed to block all comments through IndieWeb via https://www.brid.gy/ (twitter.com/_/status/611536273757462528)
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rhiaro what is post type
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "post type" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=post+type&summary=prompted+by+rhiaro+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434637239341
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tantek lol
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rhiaro hmm
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tantek what are posts?
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Loqi Post or posts may refer to: https://indiewebcamp.com/posts
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rhiaro there's a page about post types right?
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tantek I got this
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tantek post type is /posts#Kinds_of_Posts
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loqi.me created /post_type (+33) "prompted by rhiaro https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434637239341 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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rhiaro oh yeah kinds
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rhiaro kongaloosh ^
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tantek though that summary
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Kongaloosh yeah, I'm thinking about removing the typing that I have going
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tantek er dfn
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tantek Kongaloosh: yes that seems to be the trend - removing of explicit typing
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tantek or at least makng it secondary at best
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Kongaloosh because they're pretty much defined by what is or isn't there
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rhiaro kongaloosh: what types do you have going?
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tantek blames rhiaro for nerd-sniping him into fixing the /posts dfn
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rhiaro thanks tantek for having the wiki indexed in his brain
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rhiaro tantek++
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Kongaloosh mmm... photo, note, article, checkin
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Loqi tantek has 202 karma
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rhiaro Kongaloosh: yeah, don't do it :)
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Kongaloosh it seems like too much
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Kongaloosh for too little
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rhiaro aaronpk would also have something to say about this
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csarven decided to /procrastinate/ and https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership
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rhiaro csarven++
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Loqi csarven has 5 karma
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csarven What can I get/do with 5 karma?
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rhiaro when you get enough karma, loqi takes physical form and does your bidding
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Loqi :)
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rhiaro so far only aaronpk has enough
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tantek.com edited /posts (+3) "fix dfn, remove extra level of heading hierarcy, rm extra smaller see also section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /posts (+0) "-: +." (view diff)
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tantek !tell KevinMarks e.g. on my home page, I'm marking up my personal "subhead" as it were as my "p-role" in my h-card, because that's what it lists. Wondering if that's the kind of thing you're referring to as well.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@edpw @owenblacker The idea is that you keep control of your content and sort of automatically re-post to other places. http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/611541853125636096)
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tantek interesting to watch folks discover and teach each other about the indieweb
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csarven feels like a peasant in Worldcraft 1.
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loqi.me created /role (+203) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek csarven, as your next quest, consider adding an "Itches" and/or "Working On" section(s) to your User page per http://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself
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tantek.com edited /homepage (+48) "role" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /role (+509) "why, how, indieweb examples, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /role (+63) "link dfn to post topics" (view diff)
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csarven tantek I will do those things in exchange of 1000 karma points.
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tantek csarven - you have it backwards, you earn karma by doing things
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tantek just like in WoW you earn experience points by doing things
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tantek good luck!
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csarven WoW? I don't do that. I did Warcraft 1.
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tantek same same
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csarven Surely the amount of energy I put into updating my wiki page has an equivalent number of karma points.
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csarven Is this information up on the wiki? A karma table perhaps?
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csarven What is karma-microeconomics ?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "karma-microeconomics " yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=karma-microeconomics+&summary=prompted+by+csarven+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434639693590
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@superfeedr @t @aaronpk think about adding more than just 10 entries to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/feed.atom because the hub you pick seems to miss pings :( (twitter.com/_/status/611549567012720640)
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tantek csarven: no it's deliberately unspecified, left to the ambiguities of human social interactions, as a motivation to just continuously practice being kind, helpful, and personally productive on your own site
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tantek.com edited /role (-1) "yourself" (view diff)
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csarven Hmm, someone mentioned how to get around (the bug?) at https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Csarven.ca re: "User:Csarven.ca" header awhile back. I don't think I can dig this out of the IRC logs. Anyone know?
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@kevinmarks @owenblacker @edpw should a longer indieweb post come through in 2 tweets like you just did instead? (twitter.com/_/status/611553055889162241)
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gRegorLove Morning, indieweb
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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gRegorLove Up to 11 for Portland!
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gregorlove.com edited /2015/Guest_List (+1) "/* Participating */ counts" (view diff)
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kylewm !tell csarven add __NOTITLE__ to the page somewhere
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message on 6/17 at 7:24pm: could you fill in with your permalinks of your first salmentions, both sendings and receivings? https://indiewebcamp.com/Salmentions#IndieWeb_Examples http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-17/line/1434594291117
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@samnabi @_DivyeshM welcome to the POSSE https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/611575937105326081)
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kylewm.com edited /Salmentions (+158) "/* Kyle Mahan */" (view diff)
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@alexmatzkeit Schon älter aber sehr lesenswert: @diplix über das Indieweb, Bloggen etc. http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7785/1/6/ (twitter.com/_/status/611584376099487744)
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csarven.ca edited /User:Csarven.ca (+12) "Added __NOTITLE__" (view diff)
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csarven kylewm Thanks!
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Loqi csarven: kylewm left you a message 38 minutes ago: add __NOTITLE__ to the page somewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434645958740
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Loqi slack/tantek: Interesting. Wifi at AGCK blocks IRC ports and the web IRC log updates but Slack still gets through.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Oh no wait it just updated on web IRC log view too.
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aaronpk I was gonna say, the IRC log updates are now on port 80 and 443 so they should be able to work everywhere
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Loqi slack/tantek: It's just the Join the Chat that doesn't work here.
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aaronpk that makes sense, that's on a non-standard port
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Loqi slack/tantek: Also I got automatic webmention sending to liked indie posts from my site working this morning!
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snarfed tantek++ awesome, congrats!
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Loqi tantek has 203 karma
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Loqi slack/tantek: At the same time I expanded the display/storage of my indie likes to allow for explicit inclusion of u-like-of links to the POSSE copy/copies of the indie post being liked.
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Loqi slack/tantek: So that when I like an indie post, I can also save a link to the syndicated copy of that indie post (eg tweet posse copy)
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Loqi slack/tantek: Which then has the side effect of automatically liking the tweet posse copy of the indie post (using bridgy) at the same time as I send a webmention to the original.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Slightly goofy display of the link to the posse copy of the indie post being liked: (@) where the @ is linked to the tweet copy.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Eg <http://tantek.com/2015/168/f1>
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Loqi slack/tantek: Oops IRC log auto linker is errantly including the trailing &gt; after a URL from Slack
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Loqi slack/tantek: And over-escaping &gt; as well
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aaronpk must not be using cassis
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Loqi slack/tantek: Checking cassis now
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Loqi slack/tantek: Yea auto_link does the right thing :)
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Loqi slack/tantek: Aaronpk this is the web IRC log with the bad auto link.
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aaronpk yeah
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Loqi slack/tantek: Anyone got an htaccess directive to remove a trailing greater than sign and redirect?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Thanks snarfed! Also you might be interested to see that that like of benwerd's post, because I POSSEd the like to the tweet POSSE copy of the original, Bridgy backfed it and it looks like a duplicate like in benwerd's original.
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snarfed tantek: yeah that's been happening to lots of people for a long time. deduping is a non-obvious feature
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Loqi slack/tantek: <http://werd.io/2015/if-you-care-about-owning-your-own-space-on-the>
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snarfed probably mostly since true indie likes are still pretty rare
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Loqi slack/tantek: The trailing &gt; auto link bug breaks links to benwerd's posts too.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Have urls from Slack always been broken in our web IRC archives or is this new?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Snarfed how do you dedup likes like that on your site?
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snarfed tantek: i don't
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snarfed i may have deleted a few manually but that's it
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aaronpk i don't de-dupe those yet either
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snarfed i wonder if anyone does. maybe kylewm or gRegorLove? we've discussed it regularly, but maybe nothing more
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Loqi slack/tantek: Has the discussion or techniques been captured anywhere?
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gRegorLove catches up
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snarfed lightly in https://indiewebcamp.com/comment#POSSE_a_reply . maybe elsewhere
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kylewm I de-dupe comments that have a u-syndication on the original, but that's not possible for twitter likes
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snarfed kylewm: it is if they u-like-of the tweet url, right? or u-syndication the tweet url?
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snarfed (both are probably rare)
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snarfed actually u-syndication the tweet url is probably wrong
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kylewm it checks that the url of the the POSSEd like matches the u-syndication of the original like... since (IIRC) bridgy makes up a url for the permalink, it wouldn't be easy to guess what it will be
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gRegorLove doesn't de-dupe yet
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snarfed kylewm: ah right
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Loqi slack/tantek: Snarfed indeed! And if you view source in the permalink of my indie like above you'll see that it does include an exploit u-like-of link to the tweet posse copy of benwerd's post.
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Loqi slack/tantek: s/exploit/explicit
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snarfed alternatively you could fetch and cache likers' h-cards and de-dupe based on twitter rel-me link, since bridgy's twitter fave mf2 will have that in its h-card
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snarfed backs away slowly
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kylewm snarfed: looking at one now, I was wrong -- the bridgy u-url *is* the same as the u-like-of
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Loqi slack/tantek: I tried to publish/markup my indie like + Posse like in such a way that the receiving server could see that and dedup.
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Loqi slack/tantek: looks for a kylewm post to indie like...
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snarfed sounds like no one de-dupes yet
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snarfed time to file issues against p3k, semantic-linkbacks, redwind, etc!
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aaronpk oboy
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snarfed defers to others
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Loqi slack/tantek: is foiled by current wifi blocking scp/ssh
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aaronpk i'm also so frustrated when places block ssh
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Loqi slack/tantek: The workaround I've heard is to run ssh on port 443 on your server, then use it to create an ssh tunnel for actual http(s) traffic.
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aaronpk yeah, of course that means you can't run HTTPS on that server then
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Loqi slack/tantek: I don't know enough about such things to set them up, but it seems like a good idea.
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Loqi slack/tantek: No your server tunnels its https through the ssh tunnel.
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aaronpk i've definitely set up a temporary server with SSH on port 443 just for that purpose tho
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Loqi slack/tantek: Oh sorry right you mean to everyone else. Duh.
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aaronpk hah someone made a thing that routes SSH and HTTPS to different backends depending on the contents of the first packet received http://www.rutschle.net/tech/sslh.shtml
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aaronpk that way you can support both on the same port
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tantek.com edited /HTTPS (+235) "related, ssh, 443, capture sslh as found by aaronpk" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+651) "indieweb community to do: document how to use your own site instead of your Tumblr, including document Tumblr explicit post types <-> specific indie web post types, how to Import from Tumblr, Markup, POSSE to Tumblr" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/tantek: No sooner do I braindump one thing to the wiki then does the next thing bubble to the idea surface.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Have we figured out the IndieWeb equivalent of posting to each other's FB walls?
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KevinMarks_ so the wordpress term is tagline
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Loqi slack/tantek: (Ie via webmention, not micropub where you give someone blanket permission to post stuff to your site)
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Loqi KevinMarks_: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 20 minutes ago: e.g. on my home page, I'm marking up my personal "subhead" as it were as my "p-role" in my h-card, because that's what it lists. Wondering if that's the kind of thing you're referring to as well. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434637875153
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aaronpk yes? my "wall" is http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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Loqi slack/tantek: That's not the same thing
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KevinMarks_ Blogger calls it description
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GWG tantek: I haven't gotten a response since April
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aaronpk I don't want anyone to post on my front page if that's what you're implying
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Loqi slack/tantek: Kevinmarks want to collect those into a wiki page?
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Loqi slack/tantek: goes to see if he can post to aaronpk's FB wall...
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aaronpk if you can, let me know how i can turn that off...
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aaronpk is this the new "timeline" thing? it's not called "wall" anymore right
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aaronpk ?
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KevinMarks_ yes, tryting to find a good term for it
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GWG Reading up. I could have negotiated more than 1 karma point for something?
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KevinMarks_ Tumblr calls it description too
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Loqi slack/tantek: Lololol aaronpk check your FB wall
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aaronpk I see GWG on my facebook wall now lol
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KevinMarks_ what is description
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "description" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=description&summary=prompted+by+KevinMarks_+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434653731912
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KevinMarks_ is that a reasonable place to put it?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Aaronpk me thinks the individual IRC log statement archive pages may need some markup work
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aaronpk well they are already an h-entry for the individual line
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GWG aaronpk: You do? Why?
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aaronpk I think I might ahve to add add facebook metacrap to make it look better there
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Loqi slack/tantek: Ugh really? Sorry I asked.
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KevinMarks_ description is the second under the title of a blog or site. Also called tagline.
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loqi.me created /description (+108) "prompted by KevinMarks_ https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434653731912 and dfn added by KevinMarks_" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk tantek: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434653565733
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aaronpk i think GWG's photo is the largest one so facebook chooses that
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GWG aaronpk: It is?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Aaronpk, simple hack, drop others' icons from the IRC statement permalink
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Loqi slack/tantek: Or.... I'm going to take a wild guess that FB's link preview code might not check for &lt;object data=&gt;, so you could use that for the other lines instead of &lt;img src&gt;
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aaronpk too late now there are meta tags :D
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aaronpk on the plus side it now shows the message on facebook
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/fbirc-20150618-120848.png
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aaronpk facebook's "view as" feature is really neat
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aaronpk lets you see what your profile looks like to other people
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Loqi slack/tantek: Sigh. Well I just verified that yes FB ignores object tags for link previews.
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Loqi slack/tantek: I feel like we should figure out how to make FB link previews work without requiring their special markup.
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aaronpk what do they pull the description from if not the og:description tag? that's probably the hardest one
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Loqi slack/tantek: Likely title tag or meta description.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Since gsearch support of meta description is quite old / dependable.
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gRegorLove meta description in my experience
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Loqi slack/tantek: I feel like this is essential for making indie cards work as a backcompat publishing approach as well.
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gRegorLove What is OGP?
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Loqi The Open Graph protocol (OGP) is an open* standard developed by Facebook for annotating the primary subject of an HTML page via a set of custom <meta> tags in the document head for the purpose of Facebook showing link previews https://indiewebcamp.com/OGP
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kevinmarks.com edited /description (+856) "examples from silos and unmung" (view diff)
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gRegorLove https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug/og/object/ may be handy
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KevinMarks_ did someone mention description?
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KevinMarks_ :D
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GWG What is so bad about giving Facebook what it wants to consume? Ideals are nice
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "so bad about giving Facebook what it wants to consume" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=so+bad+about+giving+Facebook+what+it+wants+to+consume&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434655216945
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KevinMarks_ the problem is that then others use that too - for example slack uses og: for previews
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gRegorLove GWG, see /OGP#Criticism
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Loqi slack/tantek: GWG because then every silo asks the same thing and you end up with metacrap bloat in the head.
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GWG Sometimes... you have to compromise.
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GWG Okay
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Loqi slack/tantek: No. Every piece of markup you have costs you a maintenance tax and thus it must serve a *necessary* purpose
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Loqi slack/tantek: Not just because some site "asked for it"
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gRegorLove I have considered delivering OGP only to Facebook requests.
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@skry RT @aaronpk: Registration for IndieWebCamp 2015 is now open! https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/2015-portland Would love to see you there! (twitter.com/_/status/611614930547011584)
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Loqi slack/tantek: Gregor but even that is extra maintenance work.
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gRegorLove But thinking again, probably no real benefit. Just makes debugging harder
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Loqi slack/tantek: Better to figure out how to trigger FB's fallbacks when there's no OGP.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Then by sharing those techniques, we show everyone how to do less work and have less metacrap in the head.
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tantek.com created /indie_card (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /indie_cards (+23) "r" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ does anyone have a tagline/description on their indieweb site
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KevinMarks_ known defaults one in
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aaronpk i have my bio in my meta description tag
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kylewm Red Wind uses OGP now too, thanks to LanceyWork
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gregorlove.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+473) "/* Indieweb Examples */ me" (view diff)
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: Not in text, but I have one in my header graphic. "little g, big R"
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gRegorLove And in my <title>
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KevinMarks_ do you markup your h-feed ?
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gRegorLove I don't have an h-feed for my articles. My notes stream uses h-feed, though. No description in there.
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Jeena KevinMarks, what is this tagline/description you're talking about? I have a short description just under my picture at https://jeena.net/ and is a h-card but I didn't mark it up as some kind of description
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KevinMarks_ I was noticing that all thw blog silos have a 2 part title
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gRegorLove What is subtitle?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "subtitle" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=subtitle&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434656715789
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KevinMarks_ subtitle is [[description]]
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loqi.me created /subtitle (+26) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434656715789 and dfn added by KevinMarks_" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks_ tantek has p-role on his
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KevinMarks_ Jeena: your photo should be u-photo not p-photo
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Loqi slack/tantek: Kylewm including Lancey, how many deployments of Redwind does that make? All documented on /Redwind ?
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KevinMarks_ tantek - could you put p-summary on your p-role too?
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Jeena ah, even if it is not a link?
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kylewm @tantek I know of 4 including me, there's no IndieWeb Examples section on the wiki page right now, I'll add it
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KevinMarks_ u-photo on an img gets the src
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KevinMarks_ p-photo gets the alt
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Jeena I see
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Jeena Ok fixed, I also added u-email to the email
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KevinMarks_ that works better
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KevinMarks_ http://www.unmung.com/indiecard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net
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KevinMarks_ anyone want to do some actual design on the indiecard?
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aaronpk whoa neta
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aaronpk neat
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tantek KevinMarks: why an explicit p-summary on an h-card?
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tantek KevinMarks, perhaps you could screenshot / document *existing* silo card designs on /cards ?
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tantek.com edited /indiecard (+684) "expand with how to markup, backward compat, how to parse, see also" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - could you add to https://indiewebcamp.com/cards#Silo_Examples
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tantek better to have good silo design examples to start from, than just making up a design
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Loqi [bridgy] Dave Hazlehurst favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/edpw/status/611541853125636096)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kyle Mahan favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/edpw/status/611541853125636096)
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KevinMarks_ I'm thinking about indiecard
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tantek.com edited /card (+227) "/* Facebook OGP */ -> Facebook cards, which sometimes use OGP. document user-centric behaviors, not plumbing (OGP) centric" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks - of course you are. but like everything else design/UX related in this space, we should document the existing work of the silos - since they've out innovated all past "blog" and such design/UX efforts
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tantek it would be foolish to ignore their prior art (from highly paid professional designers, experience with user-testing etc.)
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aaronpk also see: http://embed.ly/cards
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tantek feel free to link to their specific card presentation documentation and hotlink their own images/screenshots if you don't want to take/construct your own
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tantek I don't even understand what that is trying to do aaronpk
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kevinmarks.com edited /indiecard (+125) "/* How to markup */" (view diff)
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aaronpk embedly is an API to give you a card for any URL
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tantek huh - so it both consumes and publishes
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tantek what if we replace that with a small open source library? ;)
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tantek no API needed
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aaronpk yeah, it consumes a bunch of open standards and proprietary ones, and has some heuristics
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aaronpk and then exposes an oEmbed API
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Jeena A ruby library ÖD
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Jeena :D
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aaronpk I would love an open source library that does this instead of course
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tantek KevinMarks's unmung card presentation thing is basically an indiecardly replacement then
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tantek without faffing about with oEmbed
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aaronpk the oembed thing isn't really oembed of course, because the sites you're using don't link to embedly
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tantek right
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aaronpk they just followed the oembed spec instead of making up their own api
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aaronpk so props for that i guess
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tantek so no need to bother with oembed or API
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tantek the page is the API
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aaronpk not quite. the page plus a bunch of parsing logic is the API
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tantek kylewm: that's great! yes please update /Red_Wind#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek aaronpk - the unmung page can be the API
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aaronpk ah yes
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aaronpk microformats2 makes a great api for that
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tantek that's the point - the unmung service does the "parsing logic" for all the weird backcompat stuff then offers up a very simple clean microformat
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snarfed KevinMarks: tantek: i probably don't have enough context…but my site might be an example of an h-card that could have a summary
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snarfed and/or a description
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tantek that you can simply get the JSON and use directly, without lots of weird logic
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snarfed the "I'm https://snarfed.org/about. I https://snarfed.org/house, https://snarfed.org/resume, and https://snarfed.org/pictures in San Francisco. I https://snarfed.org/software, https://snarfed.org/tag/essay, and post https://snarfed.org/pictures here." is all inside the h-card
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tantek snarfed: right - I have that - using h-card's p-note
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snarfed ah, p-note
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snarfed sure
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tantek that's the "bio or other short description" field of h-card from vCard
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snarfed ignore me then!
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snarfed backs slowly away from markup subtleties
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tantek snarfed, not at all! all such questions (implied) are good!
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tantek kylewm: when you've documented the Red Wind examples, could you pick the 2 most exemplary (besides yours) like maybe the 2 most recently updated and with good visual design, and also add them to the list here? http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Red_Wind
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tantek or rather, make the list at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Red_Wind start with yours (eslfdogfooding), and then 2 more that are visually exemplary
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tantek s/eslfdogfooding/selfdogfooding
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Loqi tantek meant to say: or rather, make the list at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Red_Wind start with yours (selfdogfooding), and then 2 more that are visually exemplary
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tantek and now to return to a previous subject - time to try out indie like of one of kylewm's notes as well as POSSEing the like to the POSSE copy of his note.
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tantek kylewm: interesting - you don't link to the permalink of the like in your facepile of likes: https://kylewm.com/2015/06/yes-https-is-more-work-to-support-than-http-so-let
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tantek why not?
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tantek and I just manually polled Bridgy - kylewm there's your like de-duping real world example / test case: http://tantek.com/2015/169/f1 like-of https://kylewm.com/2015/06/yes-https-is-more-work-to-support-than-http-so-let
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kevinmarks.com edited /indiecard (+115) "/* How to parse an indiecard */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ http://www.unmung.com/indiecard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks_ I now have a p-summary on my hfeed
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tantek.com edited /likes (+2817) "indieweb example Kyle Mahan, add Why, How to Display sections, How to de-duplicate" (view diff)
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tantek !tell snarfed, kylewm, benwerd, aaronpk captured a bunch about displaying likes on posts, why/how to, examples - would appreciate your feedback/iterations and additional IndieWeb Example entries! https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /card (+241) "IndieWeb Examples, indiecard" (view diff)
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tantek ok KevinMarks just for you ...
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snarfed tantek: like text lgtm!
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: captured a bunch about displaying likes on posts, why/how to, examples - would appreciate your feedback/iterations and additional IndieWeb Example entries! https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434662183645
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snarfed adding a couple things: dupes across silos, alternate de-dupe mechanism
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tantek snarfed please do!
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snarfed open question whether to de-dupe across silos. by your logic, they're distinct "physical" like actions, but arguably still one conceptual like
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tantek depends if they're manual actions or if they were just automatic POSSE likes
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tantek hard to tell, but in general I would say if their is an indie like from that person, then their silo likes of the same thing can be presumed to be duplicates
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tantek s/their is/there is
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Loqi tantek meant to say: hard to tell, but in general I would say if there is an indie like from that person, then their silo likes of the same thing can be presumed to be duplicates
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snarfed sure, but the interesting case is if there are only two silo backfed likes
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tantek the argument being, it could have been automated, so we should assume it was
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snarfed (or more than two)
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tantek oh right, and no indie like? then assume all manual yeah
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snarfed meaning don't de-dupe?
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tantek because PESETAS is too rarely done, and certainly not for likes
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tantek I mean following your reasoning of different physical/manual action or not
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snarfed heh, reasoning was yours, i just piggybacked :P
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tantek you could even load up their icon with all the silo badges they liked from
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snarfed yup
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snarfed anyway. i'll mention lightly
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tantek definitely!
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tantek KevinMarks: as requested: http://www.unmung.com/indiecard?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com (I threw in some more category markup there too)
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tantek.com edited /card (+190) "Proxies Embedly" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: also de-duping applies across post types (reply, like, reshare, etc), so we can consider moving it somewhere else eventually
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tantek snarfed, agreed that de-dupping has some post-type-independent aspects
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tantek I felt like documenting each specific case first would be useful to solve those specific cases, since they do differ in odd / interesting ways that affect the solutions
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snarfed what are the type-dependent aspects?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "type-dependent aspects" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=type-dependent+aspects&summary=prompted+by+snarfed+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434663574210
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snarfed i guess when text differs, if any
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snarfed sure
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tantek snarfed: obvious one is silos have permalinks for comments/replies, but not many for "likes"
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tantek thus de-duping comments may be easier in some ways
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snarfed good piont
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tantek and de-duping likes may take some stranger code inferences etc.
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snarfed man i wish we had more backfeed implementations to provide diversity of examples
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tantek so for now I figure document them separately, and as common patterns emerge, we can document those
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snarfed sgtm
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snarfed i'll take it as a compliment that people like bridgy, but still
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tantek aaronpk *could* use his current Loqi monitoring of Twitter for his backfeed of twitter
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Loqi dude
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tantek as long as Loqi didn't mind that is
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aaronpk I am actually kind of
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 24 minutes ago: captured a bunch about displaying likes on posts, why/how to, examples - would appreciate your feedback/iterations and additional IndieWeb Example entries! https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434662183645
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aaronpk but it constructs bridgy links for the webmentions it sends :)
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snarfed lol yeah, the mf2 translation part is oft-forgotten
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tantek oh right you're using your code for signaling, then bridgy for the synthetic h-entry lol
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snarfed even a new backfeed implementation that reused a-u for mf2 translation would be cool
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snarfed wp has a couple plugins that do it, but not enough of us use them
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tantek does no one here care about the FB feature of writing on each others' walls?
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snarfed.org edited /likes (+489) "/* How to de-duplicate */ silo dupes without indie copy" (view diff)
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tantek I just think we should admit it is a thing people do and seem to get enjoyment out of
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tantek and people might want to allow for others to write on their "wall"
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tantek on their indie site
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aaronpk facebook dropped the "wall" terminology a loooong time ago tho
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aaronpk now it's sharing things on people's timelines
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aaronpk vs "writing on their wall"
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tantek not true! it still prompts you to write on their wall for their bday, and when someone accepts your friend request!
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aaronpk not for me http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/fb-20150618-144422.png
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tantek oh maybe they updated that one!
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snarfed tantek: your standard argument would be to punt until someone in this community actively wants it, right?
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tantek ok I see timeline in that case too
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tantek snarfed - right - hence why I was asking if no one cares
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snarfed cool
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tantek I just encountered the behavior, and decided it's low priority for me (but not zero) and thus figured I'd ask if anyone else had thought about it or was itching for it
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snarfed i like the conceptual mapping to front page mentions, or mentions in general, and optionally showing them on something like a /mentions page
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snarfed aaronpk++ for that
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Loqi aaronpk has 853 karma
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tantek I think that makes sense, and yet misses the front-most aspect of FB wall behavior
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tantek I wonder if writing on someone's wall is the equivalent of posting a public message to them
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snarfed yup
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gRegorLove I think it is, generally.
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tantek certainly that meaningm makes sense in the bday wish prompting use-case
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aaronpk it's kind of equivalent to me reposting a post that someone tagged me in
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tantek it's not - because there's no deliberate repost action
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aaronpk if you were to write a post and send me a webmention, and then I reposted it, you'd see it on my home page feed just like what you're talking about
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tantek and it's not just "tagging you in" either
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gRegorLove I'll second the use of a /mentions page for that
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aaronpk i meant equivalent end result
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tantek it is *directed* at you
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aaronpk the end result is there is a post authored by someone else on my home page timeline
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tantek no it is not equivalent - the display is quite different
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tantek and those posts look different
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tantek writing on someone's wall shows a very up front bold at the top "Alice => Bob"
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tantek whereas the plain public mention type posts just show up in your home page feed
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tantek guessing there are different prefs for wall writings vs. showing public mentions
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tantek I agree a /mentions page is a good start
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aaronpk yeah i'm just gonna stay out of this discussion since I don't even want this on my site at all :)
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tantek the question then remains what if any of those would anyone want displayed as part of their main/home "stream" ?
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aaronpk i'm happy with showing that on /mentions and will keep it that way for a while
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tantek aaronpk, yes, makes sense
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gRegorLove looks at http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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tantek and since nearly all mentions are now response, it looks more like a responses list
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aaronpk i need to display "likes" better
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aaronpk smaller and clustered
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snarfed most of us do!
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snarfed (need to)
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gRegorLove I wouldn't mind having example.com/wall for those type of posts. I would never display them on my home page, unless perrhaps I chose to "promoste"/sticky them there.
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tantek aaronpk, for now add yourself to those that display likes on posts (with perhaps a short summary of what you do) https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk oh taht wasn't what I meant, but sure
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aaronpk i meant the likes I show on http://aaronparecki.com/mentions need clustering or something
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tantek others likings of your stuff?
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tantek yeah like the IG example
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tantek alright
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tantek what is a wall?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wall" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=wall&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-18%2Fline%2F1434664701340
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aaronparecki.com edited /likes (+285) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek wall is the original name for a feature launched on [[Facebook]] which is a user's stream of updates shown on their profile page, similar to the main stream of [[posts]] you might show on your indieweb [[homepage]].
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loqi.me created /wall (+242) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434664701340 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek feel free to expand!
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tantek.com edited /wall (+339) "expand dfn with others writing, public posts you're tagged in, renamed to timeline, see also" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ http://www.unmung.com/indiecard?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com
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@ChrisAldrich RT @Indie_Auth: Just added last.fm as a supported provider for http://t.co/i4zSjDWwVJ! (twitter.com/_/status/611657452161925120)
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tantek neat
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aaronpk haha that was a while ago
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KevinMarks_ gratuitous google now css stolen from http://codepen.io/bennettfeely/pen/Ftczh
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aaronpk oh my god why does it zoom
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KevinMarks_ that was the gratuitous bit
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aaronpk lol
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+1338) "/* Features */ profile page, with lots of features, including wall, various recent boxes, etc." (view diff)
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tantek gratuitous--
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Loqi gratuitous has -1 karma
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KevinMarks_ now less gratuitous
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tantek kylewm: could you stub /Friendica and indicate its apparent support of subscribing to PuSH enabled AS1.0/Atom feeds with that screenshot?
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tantek wow I'm really liking indie liking with all this automation in place
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aaronpk yeah! my browser toolbar button for likes has been super fun
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aaronpk if you have a micropub endpoint that supports "like-of" posts, you can use Quill's bookmarklet too!
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tantek automation++
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Loqi automation has 3 karma
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tantek fewermanualsteps++
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Loqi fewermanualsteps has 1 karma
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aaronpk quill will even posse the like to twitter and instagram for you :)
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tantek aaronpk - nice! so you're causing duplicate likes on people's indie posts too ;)
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aaronpk indeed :)
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tantek if you know of any in particular where you've caused that - please add their permalinks to the Examples: list here: https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to_de-duplicate
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tantek does anyone here have a "recent photos" box or "recent videos" box (or mix) on their home page?
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tantek both FB and Twitter profiles have such things and I feel I've seen them on some blogs but don't recall a specific example offhand
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aaronpk I am planning to! https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/22
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1539) "/* mobile recent articles box */ and after that, mobile friendly recent photos box, mobile friendly recent talks box" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /recent_photos (+558) "stub with dfn, indieweb examples, silo examples, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /recent_videos (+501) "stub with dfn, indieweb examples, silo examples, see also" (view diff)
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tantek thanks aaronpk - added to http://indiewebcamp.com/recent_photos
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aaronpk neat
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aaronpk jeena and I were talking about this last night actually
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tantek awesome - please expand the page per your thoughts!
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tantek I also *really* want to make a photos-only stream on my site that looks at least as beautiful as Instagram for browsing through recent photos on mobile
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tantek even if all I'm doing is PESOSing from IG
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aaronpk i think that's a great plan
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tantek or manually posting notes that happen to hot-embed images from IG
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tantek I think showing such a page will start to demonstrate the power of owning your own design on the indieweb - and how we make things just as beautiful as any app
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aaronpk can't wait to be able to do stuff like this again :)
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aaronpk making slow progress on my new framework tho
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tantek yeah, building these little "recent abc" boxes will force me to refactor a bunch of code :/
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tantek for now, just trying to braindump and capture/publish every itch that comes to mind for my own site to have a nice big stack of things to pick from at IWC
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aaronpk i miss being able to quickly throw together new features on my site. not quite sure what happened.
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tantek then likely depending on what inspires me at the meetup/drinkup/eatup the Friday night before, I'll explore and build that weekend
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tantek aaronpk - I have a theory about that "being able to quickly throw together new features" but it may require in-person discussion.
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tantek as positive examples, I'll point out currently kylewm and acegiak appear to be "able to quickly throw together new features" (which is awesome)
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aaronpk interesting, would love to hear
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tantek FWIW I don't think I've ever been "able to quickly throw together new features" - or at least it never feels like it. I just always feel like I really need to document each step I take so that I can backtrack my (design) reasoning at any point, and so that anyone else interested in the same new feature can build upon my work instead of having to re-figure everything out.
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KevinMarks_ I feel like i can do it on unmung but not on my site
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tantek I may be overdocumenting things at times. But I feel as if I need to get that state information out of my head.
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GWG Evening
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+882) "/* mobile friendly recent photos box */ and then mobile friendly photos only stream" (view diff)
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tantek ok now I feel like distinguishing videos that I *take*, vs. talks that I give (videos that I'm in) as they feel like two very different use-cases / user/viewer/reader/watcher intentions
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GWG tantek: How?
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tantek GWG, "recent videos" box vs. "recent talks" box, e.g. in a sidebar on my home page
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aaronpk totally agree
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1154) "/* mobile friendly recent talks box */ and then mobile friendly talks only stream" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: That was what I was wondering. You will call them talks
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tantek GWG that's the best name I came up with so far
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+364) "/* mobile recent articles box */ Bonus: articles only stream page" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, if it helps you capture for your own itches / working on documentation, see what I've braindumped here re: recent photos/videos/talks, both as a box on the home page, and separate pages: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#mobile_friendly_recent_photos_box
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tantek note that the UX I have in mind for recent videos/talks is different in interesting ways from recent photos - just as say, YouTube and Netflix "autoplay next episode" is different
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GWG I need to decide my priorities
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tantek GWG, yup, always good to be *re*prioritizing :) start with your Working_On and Itches lists and resort accordingly :)
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KevinMarks_ is this a category feed?
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tantek aaronpk - re: "quickly throw together new features" - I do feel as though recently I've been making quicker progress though, like with all the webmentions sending stuff. It feels encouraging, hence more ideas pop to the surface, and get captured.
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tantek I think YxYY helped inspire as well.
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GWG I throw together new features sometimes randomly.
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tantek KevinMarks: no not really - as "category" implies deliberately put into a specific textual category
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GWG Last night I couldn't sleep and was sending pfefferle pull requests.
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tantek these are more like implied type specific streams
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tantek prefers streams to feeds since feeds is relegated to meaning non-HTML side file formats.
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aaronpk i have a whole new list of those :)
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tantek :)
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tantek GWG - nice!
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KevinMarks_ right, but distinguishing taks from shot videos is going to need some kind of manual tagging?
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tantek maybe? not sure
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GWG Not 100% sure. I make weird decision after 2am
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aaronpk here is my list of "implied type-specific streams": articles, notes, photos, videos, music, checkins, transport, health, events, replies, bookmarks, likes, travel, scrobbles, tv
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tantek we'll find out when I start coding it :)
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GWG tv?
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tantek aaronpk: is "tv" like "viewings" or something? would you include movies in that?
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tantek hah
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aaronpk tv episode scrobbles
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aaronpk miiight include movies
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tantek and if so, would you also include just watched YouTube videos? and if not why not?
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tantek would be cool if you could just have a play list of YouTube, Netflix, Hulu permalink URLs
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tantek of stuff you've watched
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GWG I use watch as the term for that
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aaronpk adds /watched to the list
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csarven GWG Interesting. I'd definitely agree on that term being precise and simple for all intents and purposes, but I wonder if granular terms would be of use e.g., seen, heard, spoke, smelt, touched..
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snarfed huh. i have individual evergreen pages for media (etc) consumption that i update, instead of new posts for each item
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snarfed e.g. https://snarfed.org/tv
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snarfed but i don't post watches/scrobbles/etc, so maybe nm
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GWG csarven: I have watch, listen, and play
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csarven Was thinking more along the lines of capturing activity from human senses.
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GWG snarfed: I added it at acegiak's request. I have used it a few times though. I would want to take it out of the main loop
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KevinMarks_ i thought play covered sounds, video and games
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tantek KevinMarks: sounds like mixing of passive / active and unclear to what purpose
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tantek GWG, makes sense, as from a human-focus perspective, those three clusters are very different cognitive activities
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GWG tantek: I don't play much
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