#indiewebcamp 2015-06-22

2015-06-22 UTC
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aaronpk what is mobilepub?
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Loqi MobilePub is a mobile app for posting text, links, photos, videos, and audio files to your website using micropub https://indiewebcamp.com/MobilePub
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KartikPrabhu really need to host my photos, this Google Photos nonsense is so absurd! Can't even upload a photo from Firefox
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@tarr11 Just tried webmention.io ... aaaaaand spam. There appears to be no real solution out there. (twitter.com/_/status/612799446355578880)
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@aaronpk @tarr11 Whoa really? What spam did you get? I haven't seen any webmention spam yet other than pingback spam (twitter.com/_/status/612799727042588672)
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@aaronpk @tarr11 @schnarfed The comments here are from bret's webmention.js script: http:///2015/05/23/thousand-isolation-d/ (twitter.com/_/status/612800126470352896)
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@tarr11 @aaronpk I posted a link on hackernews and there is some bot doing webmentions. Check the bottom of my article http:///problems-i-have-with-stripe/ (twitter.com/_/status/612800641207939072)
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anomalily.net edited /2015/Guest_List (+266) "/* Official Guest List */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented '@tarr11 ah yeah I've seen that one before. It's a spam wordpress blog that pulls new articles from hackernews. It actually sent you a pingba...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/vouch (https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/06/21/4/)
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acegiak morning all!
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GWG Morning
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: does alt+left/right arrow on your note permalinks trigger the navigation?
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aaronpk Yep
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KartikPrabhu well that breaks the browser back button keyboard shortcut
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aaronpk What browser?? None of mine...
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KartikPrabhu Firefox on Linux
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aaronpk Weird
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KartikPrabhu alt+left-arrow is back anf alt+rightarrow is forward
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KartikPrabhu in fact those are standard shortcuts across Ubuntu at least
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KartikPrabhu even on the file manager
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: weird! can't find documentation on those. wondering if my system is some how weird even though I never configed it
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts#Browsers_.2F_Go_menu
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@Bradamante I just registered for IndieWebCamp 2015! https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/2015-portland So many things to learn! (twitter.com/_/status/612825638639005696)
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tantek.com moved /Salmentions to /salmentions "lowercase - generic term, not proper noun"
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gRegorLove kylewm: I get "login error: no authorization endpoint" logging into woodwind on my phone, using twitter auth, after it returns from twitter.
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gRegorLove alt+left/right navigates browser history on Windows too.
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gRegorLove Re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-21#t1434942585767 aaronpk, KartikPrabhu
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tantek gRegorLove: can you check to see if you have the same issue with my permalinks? e.g. http://tantek.com/2011/087/t5/future-probability-tree-adjustment-forking-paths
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gRegorLove tantek: Yeah, alt+left took me to the previous note, instead of taking me back to the chat logs.
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gRegorLove I didn't know you and aaronpk had that feature. Pretty cool.
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kylewm gRegorLove: oh interesting, thanks I see the problem I think
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gRegorLove I think it auto-capitalized my domain name first time, if that matters.
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gregorlove.com edited /2015/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participating */ 13 signed up, 37 spots remaining" (view diff)
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kylewm gRegorLove: mind trying again?
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gRegorLove Worked!
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kylewm cool, thanks!
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gRegorLove Does say "warning: no micropub endpoint found"
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gRegorLove But went away on refresh
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kylewm yeah, you don't have micropub right?
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gRegorLove Correct
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gRegorLove doesn't sit at the cool kids table
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gRegorLove :)
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@MicropubInfo Flask-Micropub 0.2.3: This extension adds the ability to login to a Flask-based website using IndieAuth (https... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Flask-Micropub/0.2.3&ct=ga&cd=CAIyHDNlNjg4ODQzODIxNzA0ZmU6Y28udWs6ZW46R0I&usg=AFQjCNEe1aitwctMvj2TuLBEhROrYL_SJg&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/612876847672524801)
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notizblog.org moved /WordPress_Security to /WordPress/Security
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notizblog.org moved /WordPress_Plugins to /WordPress/Plugins
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+0) "/* Security and Spam Protection */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+0) "/* Plugins */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+0) "/* Security and Maintenance Vulnerability */" (view diff)
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dym_cx "lyfing" as an alternative to life-blogging?
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Zegnat Where does the y come from?
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dym_cx tug lyf :D
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Zegnat That makes no sense to me, haha
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dym_cx i'm in the process of defining functions of an indieweb platform, which includes noting, blogging, checkins, communicating, etc
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dym_cx so, in total it would be a platform for life
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dym_cx but not life-logging per se
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dym_cx "a personal social platform" :D
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+106) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@RudigerMeyer Pleased to finally have webmentions implemented on my site thanks to @bastianallgeier’s @getkirby plugin. #indieweb https://rudigermeyer.com/blog/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/612937100309176320)
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grantmorrison.net edited /2015/Brighton (+176) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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@EThompson_22 @rockECHSprin #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/612943273989017600)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@pierreozoux Better than a twitter list, an OPML file! #indieweb FTW! https://github.com/kilimchoi/engineering-blogs#rss-feeds https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/better-than-a-twitter-list-an-opml-file-indieweb-ftw (twitter.com/_/status/612949192735096832)
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GWG Good morning
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cweiske I guess some people in here would not like to connect OPML and indieweb
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GWG What is the connection?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "connection" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=connection&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1434974580172
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marcus-povey.co.uk edited /HTTPS (+187) "/* Level 6 security */" (view diff)
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benborges cweiske, what is the connection to be made ?
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cweiske the tweet said that OPML is part of the indieweb tech stack
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benborges i'm interested, since i'm myself thinkering about how i could implement a news monitoring system that would push selected items to my indieweb instance, to be POSSEd on silo networks
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benborges cweiske, care to share the tweet?
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cweiske it was linked here
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cweiske http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-22#t1434973453457
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@mapkyca Reading the #indiewebcamp HTTPS page, wondering if there's a potential for level 7 powered by Tor https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS (twitter.com/_/status/612956112803991552)
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benborges cweiske, thanks
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dym_cx should we add http://indiewebcamp.com/Big_Boring_System to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths ? it's bin offline for a month at least
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dym_cx but so is everything else from ednapiranha, so it might have personal reasons and come online later
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dym_cx anyone from mozilla have contact to her?
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csarven .
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GWG pfefferle: How do you feel about push notifications support in Semantic Linkbacks?
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pfefferle GWG I don’t hat the time to look at it yet… but as I mentioned in a comment: I think there is a check missing that only replaces WebMention notifications
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pfefferle GWG ah sorry, as I said it, I found the check :)
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pfefferle GWG will try to merge them later today… have to fix some indents first ;)
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GWG pfefferle: Not that. I wanted to add the same hook to run to support the WordPress Pushover plugin.
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GWG Trying to figure out if that is out of scope
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pfefferle GWG ah ok… can you hook these notifications?
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GWG pfefferle: I submitted a pull request which has been accepted. So, now yes
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pfefferle GWG nice!
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pfefferle is this a core thing or JetPack?
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GWG pfefferle: Just a plugin
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pfefferle ah ok
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GWG https://github.com/wppush/pushover-notifications
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GWG pfefferle: That is why I asked about scope
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GWG Ny opinion is that since it does nothing if the notifications plugin isn't active, it isn't an issue to include.
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pfefferle GWG ah a pushover client… ok… hmmm… not sure if we should support 3rd party apps…
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GWG pfefferle: That was the question.
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GWG All the notifications are handled by the plugin. This would just give it the correct data
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pfefferle GWG perhaps we can work on some kind of a generic filter that can be used by third party apps…
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pfefferle GWG so it might be possible to write a small plugin that uses the semantic-linkback filter to modify the notification for the wp-push plugin…
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GWG pfefferle: Let me take that away.
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GWG pfefferle: I think I could rewrite the code I just sent ss the pull for three functions. Subject, short message, long message.
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@acegiak @DarkestKale Neat! Can I offer to help make your blog indieweb friendly? I don't think drupal is in the list of - http://acegiak.net/2015/06/22/darkestkale-28/ (twitter.com/_/status/612985132618637312)
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@acegiak @DarkestKale http://Indiewebcamp.com is the starting point. I’ve had heaps of fun getting involved, playing with my - http://acegiak.net/2015/06/22/darkestkale-29/ (twitter.com/_/status/612986922286186497)
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Loqi [bridgy] acegiak replied '@DarkestKale @acegiak Oh or indiewebify.me is a fun way to do things as a series of challenges. Sorry, I just get - goo.gl/WYeF7L' to a tweet that linked to http://Indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/acegiak/status/612987872774193153)
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@mapkyca #Indieweb HTTPS level 7? https://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2015/06/22/indieweb-https-level-7/ (twitter.com/_/status/613004284800577536)
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Loqi [mention] Marcus Povey posted 'On the Indiewebcamp wiki, there’s a page discussing HTTPS, the support for which is strongly recommended. As I’ve mentioned previously, at t...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS (https://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2015/06/22/indieweb-https-level-7/)
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csarven If IWC subscribes to the laws of thermodynamics, it follows that the karma points should be transferred among its members, as opposed to being created (with very little energy) and passed on. #karma-microeconomics
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rhiaro csarven++
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Loqi csarven has 6 karma
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aaronpk i've definitely thought of that lol
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+1571) "/* POSSE Replies to Twitter */ add subheads for originals with/without POSSE tweets, add new method of @-mentioning the indieweb author to scope a POSSE tweet reply with examples" (view diff)
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tantek csarven - is posting "karma" posts on your own site an itch of yours?
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csarven What are karma posts?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "karma posts" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=karma+posts&summary=prompted+by+csarven+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1434989121527
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tantek !tell kylewm finally updated the how to POSSE a reply to an indieweb post itself without a POSSE copy with recent (past year) thoughts and methods now in use, with citations of examples: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#original_lacks_POSSE_tweet
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme huh facebook wants 4 screenshots of how i use facebook in indieid.com ti get access to user_website
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tantek A karma post is a theoretical post type where one indieweb site could bestow or send "karma" points to another indieweb site, or potentially any webmention endpoint, as a peer-to-peer method of mimicking the [[Loqi]] karma points that indiewebcamp [[IRC]] users bestow each other.
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Loqi woot!
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ben_thatmustbeme well... uhhhh
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aaronpk wow
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: sounds like you need to write documentation with examples! :)
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aaronpk documentation++
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aaronpk examples++
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Loqi documentation has 1 karma
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Loqi examples has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme its just a requirement to getting access to any extra values. I'm sure its not really necessary
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tantek aaronpk: curious about what you think of my approach here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#original_lacks_POSSE_tweet especially since one of my two examples was in-reply-to a photo post of yours (that lacked a POSSE tweet copy). https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#original_lacks_POSSE_tweet
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ben_thatmustbeme but its all pretty self explanatory on their api at least
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ben_thatmustbeme i am keeping a list of URLs to set up your app / request API access
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tantek aaronpk: specifically, was it helpful, interesting, or noisy to also get this POSSE copy reply to your post: https://twitter.com/t/status/609195768545566720
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@t @aaronpk re: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/06/11/1/p3k-indieweb-refactoring Looking forward to seeing what #indieweb #UI #UX iterations you sketch and build! (ttk.me t4bc2) (twitter.com/_/status/609195768545566720)
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aaronpk oh hm
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ben_thatmustbeme wouldn't a karma post just be a like really?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: double-negative?
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aaronpk heh the times on tantek.com and twitter.com are an hour off
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I think the points are the point.
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aaronpk for that tweet
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tantek uh
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ben_thatmustbeme also, can you karma post for non-indieweb things too? karma-post a point for "documentation"
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tantek aaronpk - oh that was because it took me that difference in an hour to fix sending of webmentions automatically :)
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tantek (the time difference)
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tantek I believe I kept deleting the POSSE copy and retrying my posting/POSSEing/webmentioning code
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tantek aaronpk, it took me 3 tries of running my code in production to get it right, you can see because Loqi archived each attempt in IRC since I mentioned "indieweb": http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-11#t1434074815483
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tantek and yeah, that was my first indieweb reply where the webmention to the original was sent automatically by my server, not by me manually with curl
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@bretolius @aaronpk @tarr11 @schnarfed https://webmention.herokuapp.com is a better implementation of that idea (twitter.com/_/status/613015797519089665)
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csarven tantek Thanks for the dfn. Sure, I'd be up to karma/+1/like/cool/good-work/i-like-you/i-approve-this-message etc once I get my stuff up to order with the fundamental blocks to send/receive "status updates" across sites. My question however was only about IRC karma.
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: subjects like "documentation" we would do as we do subject on indieweb posts in general - hashtags ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme "Thanks for your Submission
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ben_thatmustbeme On average, submissions will be reviewed within 5 business days." *sigh8
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ben_thatmustbeme now i wait i guess
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess i have to leave the login with facebook piece not working until they get back to me i guess
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aaronpk tantek: so I did get double notifications about your reply because I got the push notification of your webmention first
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tantek faster than the Twitter @-mention notification?!?
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aaronpk i don't actually remember what order they came in actually
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tantek because I POSSEd to Twitter first - per http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#POSSE_or_Send_Webmentions_First
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aaronpk right now my webmention push notifications don't include the post text, so the twitter ones are more useful
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aaronpk but I should really fix that
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tantek oh ok, so for now at least it's somewhat useful to get both :)
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ben_thatmustbeme oh also facebook requires a privacy policy
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.indieid.com/privacy.html
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tantek what is a privacy policy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "privacy policy" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=privacy+policy&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1434991608051
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tantek what is disclosure?
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Loqi A disclosure is a bit of content, typically on a home page, on an indie web site that proactively discloses some aspect about the site that the site owner wants the user to explicitly be aware of https://indiewebcamp.com/disclosure
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: ^^^ perhaps add to that?
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tantek good to have examples of indieweb privacy policies
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rhiaro notes that 'disclosure' in Scotland is a criminal background check
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csarven I think what would be more interesting (at least to me) than say Twitter's "n Followers you know" when I'm looking at a profile, but it says "X's following/followedBy you might like to follow"
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csarven Not mutually exclusive, but the latter is I think interesting
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rhiaro I get push notifications on my phone from twitter suggesting who I should follow based on who other people follow and it's annoying as hell
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rhiaro (I keep turning the notifications off, they keep coming back..)
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aaronpk twitter's getting desperate
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rhiaro but I can see how it might be interesting to see that on a profile you're looking at anyway
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tantek csarven, is it interesting enough for you to add it to your personal itches of what you want to build for your own site?
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tantek rhiaro: yeah they keep adding new notifications
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: i turned off those notifications as soon as i got them
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tantek I keep on notifications just for DMs, and turn all others off
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csarven Yes, I would definitely add something like that to my itch on the IWC/wiki because I have a way to login!
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csarven tantek ^^
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ben_thatmustbeme it would be nice if twitter let you set a default value for any new notifications they add
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rhiaro On my phone twitter just seems to reset my notification preferences every so often
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tantek csarven: great! go for it! http://indiewebcamp.com/user:csarven.ca - start with https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself == Itches ==
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csarven.ca edited /User:Csarven.ca (+411) "Initial itches off the top of my head" (view diff)
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csarven tantek there you go. Some items there for you as well.
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csarven.ca edited /User:Csarven.ca (+74) "/* Working On */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+2072) "start ordering things in some sort of a reasonable narrative, expand the harder sections, work on closing sections that are more positive" (view diff)
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csarven On the Web interface, Twitter shows who to follow if I'm on the main status update stream. However, if I'm looking at a particular profile, it be interesting to know who to follow based on a more specific criteria. I don't know if this is already possible through other interfaces/devices.
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tantek what is who to follow?
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Loqi who to follow is a feature on a site that suggests people or other accounts to follow, likely using a recommendation engine https://indiewebcamp.com/who_to_follow
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ben_thatmustbeme indieID now working with instagram again. very hacky though, very unstable
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tantek csarven ^^^ we have some documentation - feel free to add to it!
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tantek making good progress on ordering stuff in https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review into a narrative for a post, and filling out some of the sections - if anyone has any last bits to add - please do so - I'm trying to get this out as a belated blog post in the next day or two.
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aaronpk oops need to ad my osbridge talk there
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aaronparecki.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+314) "add my osbridge video from last year" (view diff)
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csarven.ca edited /User:Csarven.ca (+98) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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tantek can you add the video of your talk to - heh was just going to say aaronpk :)
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csarven likes minor edits, and Loqi probably shouldn't bother with !M in IRC.
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Loqi who, me?
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csarven No, the other Loqi.
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aaronpk i can't change that heh
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aaronpk that's mediawiki recentchanges bot core
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csarven What is how to get other people to take part in your itches?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "how to get other people to take part in your itches" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=how+to+get+other+people+to+take+part+in+your+itches&summary=prompted+by+csarven+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1434993432582
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aaronpk https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:MediaWiki-Recent_Changes-IRCBot
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tantek csarven: usually people do that when you first make progress yourself, though there are lots of folks here willing to help with answering questions with whatever you're trying to make work on your own site!
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tantek csarven: microformats wiki and @microformats are not really itches to do with your personal site - perhaps consider another venue / forum for that instead of indiewebcamp? re: https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Csarven.ca#Itches
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tantek csarven: consider starting with answering this question: what is the next thing you want to get working on your personal site?
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tantek and I'll update /wikifying to clarify scope and provide better guidance.
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+1008) "add focus section with what's good for indiewebcamp user pages and examples of what's not, clarify some other scope, per csarven edit https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=20083&oldid=19998&rcid=20074" (view diff)
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: fwiw, approvals or rejections from facebook usually came in more like 2 days
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 53 minutes ago: finally updated the how to POSSE a reply to an indieweb post itself without a POSSE copy with recent (past year) thoughts and methods now in use, with citations of examples: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#original_lacks_POSSE_tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-22/line/1434989127890
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks kylewm. i'm hoping it will be pretty quick. its not like i'm asking for much
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: indeed. It's a prime example of the "wall" in the Walled Garden phrase. As a user I set my website to be *public* - with the intent that I don't want apps or any web access to have a barrier to get to it.
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kylewm tantek: thanks for writing up your reply behavior! I will try it out on my site for a while before lobbying bridgy publish :)
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ben_thatmustbeme to get the rel-me link from instagram i have to do a regex match against the json that is in the page returned from curl
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ben_thatmustbeme its pretty ugly
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aaronpk haha yeah that's why i didn't add instagram
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Loqi rofl
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah i figured
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders how much it would mess things up if i don't always use rel-me-auth and allow users to log in with a facebook account directly too
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ben_thatmustbeme just check to see if they URL they entered for login is a facebook URL for example
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ben_thatmustbeme and use their facebook profile as the login
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aaronpk kinda defeats the purpose of indie ID
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aaronpk cause then the ID is a facebook URL
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tantek exactly
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aaronpk then you're basically just a nascar login service
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tantek np kylewm hope the write up helps! and definitely report back your own personal experience with how those POSSE replies look to others and who you're replying to.
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GWG I need some feedback
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GWG How do people here get notified of webmentions?
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GWG I am trying to refine presentation
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aaronpk mine show up in IRC which sends a push notification to my phone when i'm AFK
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GWG aaronpk: What does the notification look like? I have the delivery mechanism
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aaronpk super ugly right now, just the two URLs
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aaronpk and "reply" or "like" etc
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tantek hmm - thought we documented indieweb implementations of those somewhere
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tantek aaronpk is this with /mention-app ?
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aaronpk no, mention-app is my eventual goal though
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: it's debateable whether you actually need to confirm that the silo links back to the original url at all...
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tantek it's for checking user error
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, that was my thought at first, except i don't know that they didn't change users after they got to the login prompt
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tantek otherwise it's potentially too easy to sign-in with a different identity than you meant to
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GWG I have to write multiple versions of everything unfortunately
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aaronpk the silo APIs usually have a way to get user info for the logged-in user aside from fetching their profile page
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aaronpk but what tantek said is also true
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tantek a big part of getting secure independent identity working is good ux, and that means good error handling, messaing
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ben_thatmustbeme i need to check rel-me-auth twice right now
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tantek s/messaing/messaging
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Loqi tantek meant to say: a big part of getting secure independent identity working is good ux, and that means good error handling, messaging
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ben_thatmustbeme i check initially to see if they have it set up, then offer them to auth with facebook, then after they auth i need to recheck it against the actual logged in user
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ben_thatmustbeme #typingwithonehandbecauseiamfeedingababy
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kylewm fewer steps to get indieauth set up is better UX, I would think
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ben_thatmustbeme it would be much easier to allow people to login if you didn't make the rel-me-auth requirement, but sort of defeats the single URL as identity idea
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ben_thatmustbeme sites have to worry about joining identities,etc
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kylewm yes absolutely agree there
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aaronpk yes there are plenty of oauth-as-a-service things, that's not the interesting part
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aaronpk e.g. https://oauth.io/home
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ben_thatmustbeme although isn't this somewhat toward the ultimate goal. basically we are saying that if facebook gave users subdomains (they have actual URLs now) and just had their auth_endpoint as themselves
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ben_thatmustbeme and we are sort of patching that to work without them knowing
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aaronpk RelMeAuth (and IndieAuth) are about using *your own URL* as the identity, a URL that is under your control
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aaronpk and using multiple ways of verifying that
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aaronpk a subdomain of facebook as your identity is just as bad as using facebook login
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i'd disagree, unless you want to say anyone on withknown.com is not indieweb. i know its a silo, but its indieweb friendly
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aaronpk anyone with a withknown.com subdomain is subject to the whims of the service
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aaronpk hosting your own domain on the withknown.com service is a different story
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ben_thatmustbeme so, by that logic, a redirect from a domain to their facebook profile page would be similar (not entirely the same due to branding of your actual URL)
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aaronpk yes, and there are examples of people who have signed in to thte wiki with a setup like that
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aaronpk e.g. if withknown.com decided to buy known.com, everyone's identities will change
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i think its unrealistic to plan for no one to be on a service. the goal should be indieweb friendly silos as a minimum though
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aaronpk i didn't say that at all
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: strawman :P
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aaronpk known allows domain mapping which is the best of both worlds. you don't have to run servers or install things, but you use a URL that is your own
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: do you disallow people using .withknown.com accounts?
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tantek so do Tumblr, Blogger, and Github
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean "you"
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ben_thatmustbeme why disallow peiple user .facebook.com accounts?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: because it's a known indieweb unfriendly silo? e.g. all the API changes that vex snarfed and kylewm ?
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aaronpk the wiki has a blacklist of certain subdomains, wonder if I should add withknown.com to that
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tantek aaronpk: has anyone tried to sign-in with withknown.com?
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aaronpk none of my other things that use indieauth sign-in blacklist anything
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ben_thatmustbeme nothing of mine blacklists anything yet
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snarfed is not proud of https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/domain_blacklist.txt
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Loqi snarfed: aaronpk left you a message 1 day ago: do you have an FAQ about why bridgy only sends responses for public posts? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-21/line/1434909939466
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snarfed but it is appropriate
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ben_thatmustbeme i would say you have to blacklist .withknown.com then
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know if benwerd will be to happy about that becoming a thing
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: why "have to" ? when you can distinguish based on indieweb /friendly or not?
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benwerd Wait what
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 6/18 at 2:16pm: captured a bunch about displaying likes on posts, why/how to, examples - would appreciate your feedback/iterations and additional IndieWeb Example entries! https://indiewebcamp.com/likes#How_to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-18/line/1434662183645
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aaronpk looks like a bunch of logins to quill and woodwind from withknown.com subdomains
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: besides it hasn't been a "problem" per se on indiewebcamp, so need to solve a non-problem.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: its not about /friendly or not. its now a user controlled domain, therefor its the same logic
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: another difference, I believe if/when you upgrade from a withknown subdomain to your own domain, everything is redirected
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tantek there's clear intent to help you own and preserve your own identity which IMO is a good enough indicator of good will
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aaronpk none of the 6 people who have signed in to the wiki with a withknown.com subdomain have made user pages
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aaronpk one of them is gregor which I assume was just testing it out
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aaronpk the others logged in exactly once and never logged in again
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tantek not sure if that is good or bad
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ben_thatmustbeme not sure either
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tantek.com edited /notification (+872) "rename sections to Why, Why not, How to, group Push Notifications, add indieweb examples with aaronpk, brainstorms, then projects" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh there's actually an RSVP to indiewebcamp cambridge from a subdomain
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tantek GWG, updated just for you :) see https://indiewebcamp.com/notification#IndieWeb_Examples and subsequent sections to see what you can look at trying
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: didn't you have some sort of Android notifications app setup as well to get Push Notifications of webmentions to your server?
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ben_thatmustbeme considers setting up some fb2indiebootstrap service that just gives a subdomain of the facebook username, and a rel=me to their facebook user, and then has an auth_endpoint that just uses login with facebook
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ben_thatmustbeme so long as i promise to redirect if they ever want to, then its okay right?
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aaronpk promising the redirect is good, but we don't have an established way to actually port an identity to a new domain
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I was using chrome notification. and it has since broken on my phone / lost connection. I haven't fixed it up much
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tantek rel=me between indieweb identities ought to do it
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ben_thatmustbeme i still get desktop notifications from it though
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: did you write that up (chrome notifications) anywhere?
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aaronpk e.g. if aaronpk.withknown.com starts using monocle, and then decides to get his own domain, and aaronpk.withknown.com redirets to aaronpk.com, monocle will see it as a different login
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i did not yet
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: when you have a moment, can you add a brief description of your push notifications setup (including limitations, attempts) here: https://indiewebcamp.com/notification#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i'm going to wait until they stabilize as chrome notifications are just coming out, and have a lot lacking still
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aaronpk and in that case I wouldn't really want to add a rel=me from aaronpk.com to aaronpk.withknown.com
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ben_thatmustbeme but i'll try to add some of that info as it stands now
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tantek still worth writing it up, especially with that detail
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tantek aaronpk: I believe glennjones's old IdentEngine solve some of this
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aaronpk but assuming i had some sort of pointer from aaronpk.com to aaronpk.withknown.com that would be enough for monocle to resolve
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tantek it was able to do hub & spoke analysis to figure out *which* of your rel=me connected site is/was the "primary"
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tantek so it could determine algorithmically when you'd moved primary identities
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aaronpk but none of that is written up so right now monocle and everything else doesn't handle that case
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tantek so we know it is possible to do and implement, I just don't think glennjones specifically wrote up what he did - though identengine is open source IIRC
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GWG tantek: I have to write a webmentions notification message, one for Semantic Linkbacks that pulls the extra context and now a push notifications version and email notifications to make everything Indieweb aware
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ben_thatmustbeme i do have it in my mind to store all rel=me linked pages as part of a person's identity and future logins from another site just ask them if thats their new pirmary URL or not
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ben_thatmustbeme also builds my contact list as people log in to my site
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aaronpk so as much as i trust Known to do the right thing, and returning a redirect is good, I still don't want to encourage people to use withknown.com subdomains as their identity
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tantek sample UX flow: user logs in with idenity A. user logs out. user logs in with identity B - as part of th relmeauth discovery, auth service notices that B is rel=me equivalent to A, and then prompts user, looks like you signed-in previously with A, shall I move your identity to B? user then chooses, and auth service saves choice, moving any info as needed.
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, simpler as it doesn't need to store at all
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GWG Doing things the right way is harder than the easy way
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ben_thatmustbeme although, if old site is down, you lose account merge and have a new account
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aaronpk tantek: that looks good to me
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aaronpk can't remember where I saw the questino about how to handle moving domains
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/18
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aaronpk should probably be a faq on /IndieAuth and /RelMeAuth tho?
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aaronpk or /web_sign-in
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kylewm this requires that you still have access to the old domain right?
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aaronpk yes
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csarven.ca edited /User:Csarven.ca (-367) "Removed itches that are not really IWC itches ... apparently." (view diff)
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aaronpk or that it redirects to the new one, since a redirect is equivalent to rel=me
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aaronpk this doesn't solve the problem of losing a domain like if it expires
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme which was why i am hoping to store all rel-me links for a person, or rather all rel-me symmetric links
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ben_thatmustbeme so later i can recognize that its the same user on Silo X, then maybe primary domain changed
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aaronpk that works as long as their silo account doesn't change ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, but ideally there is more than one. one of them will still be the same
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ben_thatmustbeme not planning for a tactonic shift of all social media sites
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ben_thatmustbeme at that point its a new identity
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ben_thatmustbeme but it does handle the case of losing a domain due to expiration
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aaronpk i was more worried about the case or renaming a twitter account and someone else taking the old name
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aaronpk but that seems like a good way to handle updating an identity due to an expired domain
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: good point.. could always set some requirement of at least 2 other sites
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ben_thatmustbeme if they have the same FB and twitter username, it seems like it would be much more likely
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ben_thatmustbeme also doesn't trust any 1 site
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kylewm could store the twitter numeric ID instead, that doesn't change when you change usernames
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: could have just given away the account info though too
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ben_thatmustbeme i.e. sold twitter names
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ben_thatmustbeme also can always repoll the original domain to make sure it is down / doesn't have those rel-me values anymore
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kylewm i'd guess changing usernames is MUCH more common than selling an account
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ben_thatmustbeme used to have @dissolve
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ben_thatmustbeme sold it
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ben_thatmustbeme went on a vacation to niagara falls with the money
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ben_thatmustbeme at the time i barely used it
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ben_thatmustbeme and didn't have much history there
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ben_thatmustbeme i believe i got $1500 for it
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Yeah, I was just testing to see if I could sign in with .withknown.com
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gRegorLove I think I was able to sign in with tilde.club, too
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ben_thatmustbeme there are lots of potentially usable non-indiewebfriendly sites like that you could use
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ben_thatmustbeme subdomains requirement cuts a lot of that though
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ben_thatmustbeme site.com/~username gets cut out by that
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gRegorLove Requiring a subdomain?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, paths are even worse
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KevinMarks_ you could use twitter id
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aaronpk interestingly we have a few people who log in to the wiki regularly with paths
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tantek on their own site I presume
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aaronpk yeah
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kylewm a multi-user Known site distinguishes user by path
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kylewm so I've logged in to stuff with known.kylewm.com/profile/kylewm
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: re: paths are even worse: https://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains#Path_alternative
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/intent/user?user_id=57203 is me, even if I chaneg my handle
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: see the discussion above about selling a twitter account
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KevinMarks_ it even has an hcard http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fintent%2Fuser%3Fuser_id%3D57203&html=&pretty=on
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ben_thatmustbeme allowing paths means you have no knowledge at all about indieweb friendliness of a site
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ben_thatmustbeme multiuser known site would be just as bad as a silo as you don't know who owns the primary URL of that install of known
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_: aaronpk: is selling a twitter handle any different than letting a domain name expire then?
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aaronpk sounds about equivalent
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: paths are still useful for authenticating micropub for a multi-user site
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: big diff, Twitter TOS disallows
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kylewm even if they are not as stable as capital-I Identities
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ben_thatmustbeme then let me ask this question. what is twitter (probably the most friendly of the major silos) lacking to make it be considered indieweb friendly?
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ben_thatmustbeme and i say most friendly as we have read/write API, and accounts have h-cards
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KartikPrabhu webmention
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: so bridgy?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: perhaps start a section on /Twitter#Issues re: why not friendly
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KartikPrabhu if you count bridgy as a thing then any silo with an api is "indieweb friendly" so the definition is useless
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tantek e.g. profiles lack h-cards
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tantek post lack h-entry
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tantek s/post/tweets
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Loqi tantek meant to say: tweets lack h-entry
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tantek etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme i feel like we need a score card for silos page
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's what the /friendly page is for already
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tantek if you think a silo is friendly, add it there, adding what you think is friendly about it
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly#Friendly_Services
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: /friendly looks to be after they are considered friendly
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tantek right, until then, put Issues on their own pages
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tantek like /Twitter#Issues
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ben_thatmustbeme could someone speak to the stability of twitter's API?
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@KashCorp Petit test vite fait de mon nouveau site vers mes réseaux sociaux. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/613068508063236096)
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ben_thatmustbeme looks at kylewm
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ben_thatmustbeme and snarfed
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snarfed define stability
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snarfed actually on second though, nm, no need
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ben_thatmustbeme if facebook is a 0, and ...
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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snarfed (it's a big discussion that probably won't help much)
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snarfed i actually think fb's 2.x api changes were probably good product decisions, and good for users
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snarfed difficult for app developers, but they're not the only stakeholders
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snarfed anyway. i'd think of api indieweb development friendliness as mostly about how much functionality is exposed
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snarfed my opinions: twitter's good, fb used to be good but is now just ok, instagram and g+ are meh
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kylewm twitter is pretty dictatorial about how you can display content you get from their API, and they are pretty strict (imho) with rate limiting
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snarfed all fair
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snarfed also it's 2015 and they *still* don't expose favorites in the api!!!
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kylewm I'm curious if StatusNet's twitter compatible API is still compatible
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snarfed (pet peeve of mine forever)
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ben_thatmustbeme its 2015 and g+ still doesn't have a write api
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snarfed that's an intentional product decision
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snarfed as opposed to twitter - from what we can tell (including their statements), they literally haven't gotten around to it
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snarfed silly
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aaronpk must not be an itch of theirs ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme so changing topics to something that came up in #social
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gRegorLove Twitter will get to it. They're just busy with a backlog of emails to spam their users with. ;)
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KartikPrabhu when is the next indiewebcamp?
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gRegorLove July 11-12
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: stop pretending to be Loqi
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aaronpk (yes i know there is a pending loqi feature request to pull that question from the /events page :)
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snarfed i should never ever have had to write this: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/activitystreams_unofficial/twitter.py#L1025
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Loqi who, me?
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snarfed (sorry, i'm done now :P)
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi I agree
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Loqi snarfed has 106 karma
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gRegorLove What is 2015?
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Loqi IndieWebCamp 2015 is 2015-07-11 through 2015-07-12 in Brighton, England & Portland, Oregon; the fifth annual gathering for independent web creators of all kinds, from graphic artists, to designers, UX engineers, coders, hackers, to share ideas, actively work on creating for their own personal websites, and build upon each others creations https://indiewebcamp.com/2015
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ben_thatmustbeme this is more for tantek, if you want to look up site.com/index#someid could we really be doing CURL site.com/index, parse for ID someid, and only feed that part of the page to MF2 parser?
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015/Guest_List (+0) "sort by first name (was sorted by domain name instead)" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015/Guest_List (+183) "add rsvp from tito registration" (view diff)
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@KashCorp Et avec l'adresse du site dedans https://kash.space #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/613076894267932672)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes in fact h2vx.com does that for classic hCard and hCalendar
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know if any parser libraries do this or not
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ben_thatmustbeme i think they mostly jsut feed url to curl then parse
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: sounds kind of like superfeedr http://documentation.superfeedr.com/subscribers.html#html-pages-and-fragments
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ben_thatmustbeme it came up for h-cards that are not first level entry
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ben_thatmustbeme s/first level entry/first top level h-*/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: it came up for h-cards that are not first top level h-*
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: the mf2 parsing spec http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing just talks about a "a document" to be parsed
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tantek it doesn't say anything about how you got it
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kash.space edited /Known (+41) "Add example" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu on parsing parts of s document, nothing in mf2 stops you from sending it only a fragment of a page. In fact if you knew which fragment you wanted it might even be faster
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ben_thatmustbeme it should be faster, unless mf2 parsing in O(1) :P
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dym_cx !indox
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dym_cx since more ppl online now, i'll ask about http://indiewebcamp.com/Big_Boring_System -- is it dead (as in silo)
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kylewm dym_cx: not sure, I asked a while back http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433889315772
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dym_cx kylewm: ednapiranha went "_why the lucky stiff" and deleted herself from the internet (temporary?) most likely digitalocean instance with BBS and all her other stuff was among the collateral damage
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ben_thatmustbeme crap.... just getting the user_website from facebook isn't really enough to trust that the correct user logged in is it?
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ben_thatmustbeme all i'm doing is validating that the account the user logged in to has rel=me link for the website, but i don't know that its the actual user account listed on their indieweb site
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: yup! that is why two way rel links
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@capecodbicycle Where did indieauth go?: error 2015-06-22 19:16:21 (twitter.com/_/status/613123420348289024)
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kylewm twitter keeps deemphaizing the "Promoted" icon ... i thought it was yellow just recently, now it's gray, much harder to notice
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: thats how brid.gy gets around it, it just looks up your facebook first and then validates that your facebook account has a good URL... though i suppose again its possible to sign up for someone else's site then
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ben_thatmustbeme huh.... if Alice has a FB -> indiewebsite set up, and Bob sets his link to point to alice's indieweb site... can bob log in to brid.gy?
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snarfed1 ben_thatmustbeme: key difference, bridgy isn't an auth or identity service, and it doesn't know or care what your primary domain is
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snarfed1 it discover your domains, but doesn't care which one "is you"
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snarfed1 more clearly: you don't register with bridgy with a domain, only with a silo account
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snarfed1 (technically you don't log into bridgy at all, you just oauth approve it once per silo. the ui is all public facing. :P)
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KartikPrabhu random indiereader thought: I am reading an article on a reader and realise it is related to another article I wrote on my site. I should be able to micropub it to my article as "related article" so people can find related topics...
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KartikPrabhu should publish "related articles" first
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KartikPrabhu initial thought on publishing related article: if a mention (possibly reply) is an article instead of a note, add to related articles list
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gRegorLove What is related?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "related" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=related&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1435016217496
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gRegorLove What is related articles?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "related articles" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=related+articles&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-22%2Fline%2F1435016228462
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KartikPrabhu thanks gRegorLove
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove-- for sarcasm
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove++ for helpfulness
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Loqi gRegorLove has 12 karma
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Loqi gRegorLove has 14 karma
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gRegorLove Mwahaha
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KartikPrabhu lol! how did that work?
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gRegorLove wasn't being sarcastic though
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KartikPrabhu i know
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KartikPrabhu Loqi is bad at math
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gRegorLove That's a cool idea, though.
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kylewm !karma gRegorLove
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Loqi gRegorLove has 14 karma
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KartikPrabhu thought of it because I've heard "how does one discover things on the indieweb without some central thing etc..."
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KartikPrabhu knows citation needed for ^
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gRegorLove I know GWG has asked that here at least once
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gRegorLove Not the central thing part, but "how do we find indieweb content"
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KartikPrabhu hence the reader idea. If people I follow, like or repost a thing I discover it, but this way one can discover related content
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KartikPrabhu on similar topics directly from a post one is reading
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@dedicatedwryter Hey, I have a #Facebook page! #indieauth http://dedicatedwrytermusings.com/2015/06/22/hey-i-have-a-facebook-page-indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/613130217863843840)
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, yeah, i was just wondering what happens if two facebook accounts gave auth to bridgy and they both had the same user_website
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ben_thatmustbeme what havok could one wreak?
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: sure! none really. reasonable use case if e.g. you have multiple fb accounts
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ben_thatmustbeme suppose you don't own one of them, its a spammer
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snarfed sure, the "malicious" use case is posting to fb and including a link to someone else's web site. bridgy would send that post's likes, comments, etc as wms
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ben_thatmustbeme thats what i came to realize
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ben_thatmustbeme deal with that if it ever comes up i guess
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snarfed it's a complicated, ineffective, unlikely spam vector :P
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kylewm I sorta wonder if you *can* reliably verify that a facebook user has logged in with the account represented by a URL
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