#indiewebcamp 2015-07-04

2015-07-04 UTC
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bret ha, im just gonna do it
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bret and put my faith into public/private key ssh auth to prevent access and 2FA if it gets pwned anyway
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bret yolo
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KevinMarks_ Take a look at @hunterwalk's Tweet: https://twitter.com/hunterwalk/status/617127719248068609?s=09
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@hunterwalk @TechCrunch I'd love if every video interview you did incl a transcript. Thanks, that is all. (twitter.com/_/status/617127719248068609)
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bear !tell snarfed plaintext in a locked down file is ok, ssh-agent with forward is best IMO
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu does anyone show notes in the feed differently from the permalnk?
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@Cloudy_Mine https://www.facebook.com/ownyourdata/videos/vb.192805447596188/394278527448878/?type=2&theater (twitter.com/_/status/617189834331787264)
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bret bear: the context for this plain text is for a cron job or systemd timer
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kylewm bret: i'm very curious what you're cooking up that accesses DNS settings on a cron job? dynamic dns thing?
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bret kylewm: ya
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bret put a raspi2 as my routers default host
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bret but the IP might change
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bret my domain reg's dns supports dynamic dns, so just trying to learn enough systemd to set up a dynamic dns systemd timer
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kylewm gotcha
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bret details :/
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@CaptainKurtis @flyingmonkeyair @GlobalRevLive Do you do #indiewebcamp stuff? (twitter.com/_/status/617221312516243456)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: added navigation "newer/older" link but with directions contradicting your recommendations. https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/2013 hopefully a post about "why" this weekend
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tantek interesting
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tantek KartikPrabhu: is it because of the implied sequence deriving from reverse chronological listings?
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KartikPrabhu exactly! :)
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KartikPrabhu i'd like to know objections to that if any
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tantek that's the usual explanation / justification I've seen. I disagree with the conclusion because it is design by only a particular context, and not the most important one
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KartikPrabhu interesting. I came to that from an anlogy with reading directions in books and conventional media
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tantek e.g. a more important context is the permalink page itself, where it is absent any kind of "reverse chronological list" context
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KartikPrabhu hence words like "newer/older" instead of just arrows or "next/prev"
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tantek reading directions in books are also
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tantek <-- previous (older) page. and newer/next --> page
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KartikPrabhu why? I think of previous = previous in reading order
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tantek in books they are the same
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tantek previous pages are written and read before (older) than next / newer pages
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KartikPrabhu yes. that is my point. in any case will put detailed arguments in the post. you are of course welcome to reply :)
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tantek what point? previous == older is the design I put forth
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tantek justified by books etc.
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tantek and permalinks
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KartikPrabhu no. previous = previously read/seen
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tantek time exists not from the poitn of the observer, but from the point of physical events
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tantek s/poitn/point
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Loqi tantek meant to say: time exists not from the point of the observer, but from the point of physical events
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tantek in this case, the physical events are the creation of the posts
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tantek it's the only way to present a consistent interface
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tantek across all readers - who are more likely to have found posts randomly / out of order from search
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tantek than they are from archives
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tantek which is the why the "back to the future" error is a result of tunnelvision design, obsessing over one particular "view" (the reverse chronological list) as opposed to what experiences readers actually have by time frequency
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KartikPrabhu not if you have imposed reverse-choronolgy on the reader from your feed pages
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KartikPrabhu i want to argue that using good words like "newer/older" solves that
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tantek you cannot impose reverse-choronolgy on the reader, that's the point, not only can you not impose it, they are more likely to find your pages via search and external links, e.g. from our wiki
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tantek even if you *try* to use reverse-choronolgy everywhere in all your lists - it won't matter, search (people using Google/Yahoo etc.) will lead people to permalink pages, not your lists
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes and on permalink pages "newer/older" as words provide context but on feed pages like the one I have they follow the usual reading flow of the feed page
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KartikPrabhu this is a long debate. we should postpone it to the blogosphere when I have my post up.
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tantek for that reason, I don't think newer/older actually makes sense on feed pages
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tantek because of the confusion from reverse chronological order
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csarven thinks that this is a UI problem.
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tantek yes of course
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KartikPrabhu csarven: yup! it is
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tantek that's the entire discussion :)
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KartikPrabhu was late by 2 seconds!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's one of the reasons why I think such sequential nav is bad UI for archives
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tantek because of the confusion / inconsistency it introduces
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KartikPrabhu oh that is intersting!
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tantek a better UI for archives is to just show progressive disclosure nav of year(s) / month(s)
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tantek or perhaps year(s) / bim(s) if you're into that sort of thing
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tantek and most modern archives UIs show some form of year(s) / month(s) - from custom blogging systems, to WordPress, to FB "timeline"
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KartikPrabhu I do have alist of "years" at the bottom but it is useful to navigate directly to the "next/prev" pages
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csarven reads up
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KartikPrabhu hasn't found a way to do pregressive disclosure without JS or running into infinite scroll stuff
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tantek KartikPrabhu: a good pregressive disclosure year(s)/month(s) nav UI will have implicit next/prev built into it by its very layout
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tantek no infinite scroll needed
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KartikPrabhu csarven: start of debate: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-04#t1435996741022
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KartikPrabhu thanks tantek for using propagating the "pregressive" typo ;)
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csarven likes the discussion topic
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tantek checks his itches list for nav
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KartikPrabhu csarven: it is UI thing I have been bothered by for at least a few years
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KartikPrabhu i hopefully will have a post on this for more debates. seems tantek has opposing views on all of my points. should be interesting :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you coming to IWC? agree with nav being challenging - I sketched what I wanted a few years ago and it fell too low on my itches list to get implemented (yet)
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KartikPrabhu no. can't make it to any of the IWC. If this post sparks a debate/brainstorming at IWC that would be neat!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: like most UI discussions, I don't expect long posts back/forth to help actually
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csarven KartikPrabhu I don't see a particular issue with the way you have your new/old. The context is clear enough (for me). Although this is not the same, here is my archives page in reverse chronological order http://csarven.ca/archives/articles . I do not use new/old/prev/next.
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tantek typically more progress is made with brief chats, and even more with sketching stuff in person
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tantek for UI discussions
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KartikPrabhu now wants to make a "poll" post so people can indie-reply with a "vote" post of some kind :P
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csarven I disagree with "KartikPrabhu no. previous = previously read/seen". Unless there is some sort of a tracking going on for that particular user, I don't see how that holds.
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tantek what is a poll?
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csarven I agree with "tantek time exists not from the poitn of the observer, but from the point of physical events"
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "poll" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=poll&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-04%2Fline%2F1435999022658
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KartikPrabhu csarven: of course the only issue is that the new/old direcitonality is opposite of what tantek recommends at http://tantek.com/2011/102/t2/navigation-arrows-back-past-forward-future-ui-pattern
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KartikPrabhu csarven: yes. to me reading on the web is like reading a book from which "physical events of the future" mean the next thing to read
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KartikPrabhu so basically conflicting with the "revers-choronology" reading that seems to be the norm today
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csarven KartikPrabhu In order to declare the semantics of your prev/read and next/to be read, you have to introduce the variables which explain that context. I think the simplest context (in the absence of some additional information), the articles/events speak for themselves because they have a timestamp.
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KartikPrabhu hence the use of "newer/older" which explicitly connote "time"
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KartikPrabhu instead of "previous/next" which are ambiguous as to "prev/next" in time or reading-order
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tantek KartikPrabhu: books are not ordered by how you different readers view the pages, but how the author *wrote* them
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csarven Personally, I would rather not apply the physical/book reading behaviour/UX to how electronic/UX should work.
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KartikPrabhu then why apply "time exist from point of view of 'physical events'" ?
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tantek because it is a deterministic model
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csarven In that context, I think tantek mean thtat physical event is in which the author timestamped the items.
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tantek as opposed to reader-specific
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csarven Not from the viewpoint of the user
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KartikPrabhu I want to ask that is the "physical event order" in the context of the Web? is it actual time or is it reading order?
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csarven Actual time of the item.
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KartikPrabhu then why have "reverse chronology" of feed items?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you're assuming there is one reading order - there isn't - that's the problem I've tried to point out from the start. especially when readers find and read pages via search
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tantek which is known to be more typical than any sequential nav on anyone's site
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KartikPrabhu tantek: of course there isn't "one reading order" unless some one lands on your feed page
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csarven Regardless of the UI, the entries have a timestamp which indicate what is before or after i.e., which entry came first and what is next. Time flows in one direction (as I understand it) :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: just because you can't assume one reading order doesn't mean you shouldn't provide some sort of default
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KartikPrabhu csarven: yes. time does flow in one direction. so why not have it be consistent with the direction of readiing order in feed pages?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. I am claiming (at least for now) that the default should be the order of the "stream"/feeds
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KartikPrabhu of course on Twitter it all gets messed up
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csarven KartikPrabhu Like I said, if you want to deal with it from the point of the user's past behaviour, you have to introduce that information into the UI somehow. And, that overrides the timestamps on the actual events. This is perfectly fine. However, it is an extra step - nothing fundamentally wrong with that in my opinion but tihngs could be misleading if the UI is not clear. On the other...
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csarven ...hand, basing the UI around what the entry describes itself, it would be safer and easier to follow / less confusion IMHO.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: there is no one "readiing order" per the point about how people land on your (typically permalink pages), therefore it is an error to design derivative UI elements accordingly
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tantek there is however one sequence to the timestamps on your posts, therefore it does make sense to design consistent UI accordingly, consistent with textual information you already have visible on your posts, pages, lists, feeds.
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KartikPrabhu csarven: yes agreed. I think having timestamp together with time-directional words like "newer/older" is better that any assumed "left/right" directionality
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KartikPrabhu my point is: if one uses "newer/older" as explict words then this "left/right" choice is pointless
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csarven KartikPrabhu If you talk about your proposal by including lets a session property, I think it'd be more clear. That property=value (where the user is/was/may go) is entirely absent from the raw content on the page. So, I would still say that basing the UI around visible/available content is safer/more valuable than any assumptions.
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KartikPrabhu csarven: sure the current context is explicity visible on the pages as timestamps see: https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/2013
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KartikPrabhu but it is a good point about having visible current context which I had not planned to include in my post :)
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@csarven .@indiewebcamp is a good initiative to document practices and arrive at some recommended best-practices concerning data/UI/UX on the Web (twitter.com/_/status/617256318626308097)
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KartikPrabhu :)
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csarven goes to clean his refrigerator.
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KartikPrabhu plans to sleep
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@rhiaro RT @csarven: .@indiewebcamp is a good initiative to document practices and arrive at some recommended best-practices concerning data/UI/UX … (twitter.com/_/status/617259850402148352)
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rhiaro Awesome, loqi picked that up before bridgy/twitter had finished chugging
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Loqi yeah!
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KartikPrabhu this Loqi guy is fast!
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Zegnat Good morning all
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Loqi Zegnat: KevinMarks__ left you a message 11 hours, 2 minutes ago: npr have transcripts for a lot of their shows and clips http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-03/line/1435962771886
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Loqi Zegnat: KevinMarks__ left you a message 10 hours, 47 minutes ago: another example http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n08/jacqueline-rose/a-rumbling-of-things-unknown http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-03/line/1435963683123
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csarven Wow, didn't realize how junk Google Slides are until now.
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KartikPrabhu pretty mcuh very junk
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KartikPrabhu HTML all the way
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KartikPrabhu https://kartikprabhu.com/talks
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KartikPrabhu well actually the last one is Google Slides to PDF :P
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csarven http://csarven.ca/presentations/
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csarven I should probably have a proper page for that
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KartikPrabhu yes why not!
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csarven Also need to update my CV so that the talks (events) point at the presentations/slides.
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KartikPrabhu needs to have a web CV
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KartikPrabhu does have a list of papers though https://kartikprabhu.com/papers badly markedup
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tantek KartikPrabhu: try out h-resume for that and see how it works (or doesn't) for you
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csarven Although this needs some work, I am now integrating slides directly in the articles e.g., see http://csarven.ca/this-paper-is-a-demo and click on the top-right menu, then "Shower". It enters the slideshow mode. :)
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csarven some ^further work
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes have tried h-resume in the past, forgot what issues I ran into. Have to revisit it
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tantek I think csarven ran into some issues too
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csarven Or see another integration/embedding using <object> here: http://csarven.ca/call-for-linked-research . Use arrows.
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KartikPrabhu csarven: neat stuff
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csarven Hmm, I'm not sure which issues in particular, but I htink it had more to do with h-event/h-calendar i.e., not being able to have multiple calendars on the page.
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tantek yes I think that was one of the issues
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csarven Otherwise, h-resume is fine.
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tantek since we don't have any consuming code implementations of h-resume yet, we don't really know what other unknown issues there are
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csarven And, this is a recent "issue". hResume worked out well for me over the years. No complaints here.
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tantek that's good to know
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KartikPrabhu i did run into how to markup the same presentation given multiple times while making https://kartikprabhu.com/talks page
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csarven I also remember Glenn (I think it was him) experimenting with my resume in one of the newspapers? Perhaps Guardian's CV resume view. Hard to recall exact names right now.
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tantek yes - he had hResume consuming code
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csarven I have to review my h-resume. Did site wide search/replace for mf1->mf2, so may have broke some stuff.
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tantek csarven: past hResume implementations: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Implementations - in particular see the Madgex and Guardian Jobs entries
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csarven That's it!
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csarven http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcsarven.ca%2Fcv&callback=&dateformat=auto is alright I htink.
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csarven if not already possible, it'd be cool to be able to update the mf/iwc wiki pages via IRC/Loqi. "Loqi Update http://example.org/foo#bar 'Hello world'"
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Loqi woot!
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LukasRos Hey everyone, not sure if I’ve just been absent from the chat for too long or if it’s the extreme heat outside but I had trouble remembering the name of the IRC client I have installed :o
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lukasrosenstock.net edited /User:Lukasrosenstock.net (+742) (view diff)
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lukasrosenstock.net created /phpADNSite (+496) "Created page with "'''<dfn>phpADNSite</dfn>''' is an open source software that allows [[App.net]] to be used as a backend for a personal IndieWeb site ([[PESOS]] approach). It has been developed b..."" (view diff)
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lukasrosenstock.net edited /User:Lukasrosenstock.net (+49) (view diff)
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LukasRos I’ve setup of CloudFlare for HTTPS on my website, will write a few notes about it on the wiki now.
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aaronpk very cool!
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lukasrosenstock.net created /CloudFlare (+2423) "Created page with "'''<dfn>CloudFlare</dfn>''' is a service to, in their own words, "supercharge your website". Essentially they provide a distributed DNS service and CDN that acts as a caching rev..."" (view diff)
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lukasrosenstock.net edited /CloudFlare (+178) "/* Possible issues and disadvantages */" (view diff)
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LukasRos Ok, done.
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LukasRos Hope it’s helpful.
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LukasRos Time for tea break :)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor suvisitor temp
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KevinMarks__ A thought for Tantek and Kartik: if you make newer up and older down on your note pages they will match the feed view - otherwise you are arguing about rotation direction
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KevinMarks__ Now I wonder whether pre-book scrolls were portrait or landscape
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snarfed yay fixed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/415
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Loqi snarfed: bear left you a message on 7/3 at 6:51pm: plaintext in a locked down file is ok, ssh-agent with forward is best IMO http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-03/line/1435974681461
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snarfed hoo boy, bridgy is working hard to crank through old posts it missed due to that bug. https://snarfed.org/415.png
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 109 karma
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GWG snarfed: Hope some of mine are in there
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snarfed GWG: if they had link attachments, then probably yes!
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GWG snarfed: Many did
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GWG I deployed that timezone per post override feature. Wondering how that might affect feed readers
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KartikPrabhu GWG: you should susbscribe to your own site to to testing instead of wondering
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GWG I can in a few of them. But some I don't have access to.
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aaronpk !tell fkooman I think it's actually the job of the token endpoint to prevent authorization codes from being used more than once.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Phyks I was wondering is there anyone using mf2 for richer emails? Just thought it could be easy to tag dates and so on for easy calendar integration
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@FromTheWastes Bioflash Short Stories by @nrburnette – What are they?... https://fromthewastes11811.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/bioflash-short-stories-by-n-r-burnette-what-are-they/ #amreading #amwriting #indieauth # https://twitter.com/FromTheWastes/status/617418110564442112/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/617418110564442112)
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uhhyeahbret Phyks: email is pretty tough to hack on
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uhhyeahbret plus most people use gmail/webmail
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uhhyeahbret so your stuck with browser plugins scraping infp
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parzzix I am going to get my feet wet with learning to code. What do people here think about Learning Python the Hard Way? Any opinions?
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uhhyeahbret parzzix: do you have any coding experience?
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uhhyeahbret eg familar with functions, variables, loops and scope as concepts?
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bret parzzix: any language the hard ways tend to be comprehensive
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bret but I found it completely boring
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bret if you have some familiarity with programming, the official python tutorial is good
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bret (Start with 3)
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parzzix i have no experience at all
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parzzix i did take basic 20 years ago ;)
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parzzix maybe 25
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parzzix i am a little familiar with loops and variables
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bret I would start with https://docs.python.org/3.5/tutorial/ if your curios about python
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bret curious
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parzzix thanks for the input bret
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kylewm I've heard the same thing about LPTHW, comprehensive but slow moving and not very motivating.
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kylewm parzzix: lemme pull up a blog post from my friend
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bret i think being motivated and finding interest the material you use hugely important personally
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bret there aren
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bret oops
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bret there aren
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bret wow
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bret gives up on apostrophes
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parzzix Yeah, I am open to anything ...thought about trying codecademy.com also
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bret there arnt many good newbie introductory resources on go, but i find it to be a really practical language in a lot of ways
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kylewm lots of good resources in this post (from friend who was doing LPTHW) http://codingwithkniv.es/2015/01/22/learning-python-reflections-and-new-directions/
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parzzix thanks kylewm
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bret http://codecademy.com/ is pretty good when getting started
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@kevinmarks Sounds like a good group to talk #indieweb with https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/617456141031702528 (twitter.com/_/status/617460462007877633)
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tantek what is Neocities?
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Loqi NeoCities is a free website hosting silo in the spirit of defunct silo GeoCities (Yahoo shutdown in 2009) that looks like a stepping stone to getting started on the IndieWeb https://indiewebcamp.com/NeoCities
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tantek KevinMarks - always check the wiki first :)
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tantek now back to hacking on scoped styles
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@BackurBot RT @kevinmarks: Sounds like a good group to talk #indieweb with https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/617456141031702528 (twitter.com/_/status/617464238265737216)
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tantek parzzix: re: learning to code - for the web I'd suggest start with HTML, CSS, JS
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csarven Declarative > Imperative
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tantek is now wondering what he or his code would/should do with a custom style on a "like" post, especially if in the middle of bunch of other likes...
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aaronpk oh my
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tantek is deciding that perhaps its ok that likes can't have custom styles
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KevinMarks__ Parzzix: I'm a fan of Dive Into Python, though that does assume some programming knowledge, it builds well
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KevinMarks__ I've also had good reports on Dive Into HTML5
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tantek Parzzix, I'd actually recommend against starting with any backend scripting languages, the reason being it gives you tail-wagging-the-dog perspective of web development.
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KevinMarks__ s/Dive Into/Heads Up/
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Loqi KevinMarks__ meant to say: I've also had good reports on Heads Up HTML5
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KevinMarks__ Or is it head first? /me fails at book titles
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tantek Head First
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tantek looks like I need to switch my permalink pages to use <body class="h-entry"> to make custom post styles work in a data driven way that can be re-used as a scoped style.