#indiewebcamp 2015-07-04

2015-07-04 UTC
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bret
ha, im just gonna do it
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bret
and put my faith into public/private key ssh auth to prevent access and 2FA if it gets pwned anyway
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bret
yolo
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@hunterwalk
@TechCrunch I'd love if every video interview you did incl a transcript. Thanks, that is all.
(twtr.io/11ED8mBbbq9)
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bear
!tell snarfed plaintext in a locked down file is ok, ssh-agent with forward is best IMO
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
does anyone show notes in the feed differently from the permalnk?
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bret
bear: the context for this plain text is for a cron job or systemd timer
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kylewm
bret: i'm very curious what you're cooking up that accesses DNS settings on a cron job? dynamic dns thing?
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bret
kylewm: ya
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bret
put a raspi2 as my routers default host
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bret
but the IP might change
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bret
my domain reg's dns supports dynamic dns, so just trying to learn enough systemd to set up a dynamic dns systemd timer
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kylewm
gotcha
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bret
details :/
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: added navigation "newer/older" link but with directions contradicting your recommendations. https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/2013 hopefully a post about "why" this weekend
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tantek
interesting
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: is it because of the implied sequence deriving from reverse chronological listings?
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KartikPrabhu
exactly! :)
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KartikPrabhu
i'd like to know objections to that if any
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tantek
that's the usual explanation / justification I've seen. I disagree with the conclusion because it is design by only a particular context, and not the most important one
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KartikPrabhu
interesting. I came to that from an anlogy with reading directions in books and conventional media
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tantek
e.g. a more important context is the permalink page itself, where it is absent any kind of "reverse chronological list" context
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KartikPrabhu
hence words like "newer/older" instead of just arrows or "next/prev"
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tantek
reading directions in books are also
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tantek
<-- previous (older) page. and newer/next --> page
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KartikPrabhu
why? I think of previous = previous in reading order
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tantek
in books they are the same
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tantek
previous pages are written and read before (older) than next / newer pages
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KartikPrabhu
yes. that is my point. in any case will put detailed arguments in the post. you are of course welcome to reply :)
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tantek
what point? previous == older is the design I put forth
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tantek
justified by books etc.
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tantek
and permalinks
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KartikPrabhu
no. previous = previously read/seen
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tantek
time exists not from the poitn of the observer, but from the point of physical events
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tantek
s/poitn/point
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: time exists not from the point of the observer, but from the point of physical events
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tantek
in this case, the physical events are the creation of the posts
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tantek
it's the only way to present a consistent interface
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tantek
across all readers - who are more likely to have found posts randomly / out of order from search
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tantek
than they are from archives
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tantek
which is the why the "back to the future" error is a result of tunnelvision design, obsessing over one particular "view" (the reverse chronological list) as opposed to what experiences readers actually have by time frequency
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KartikPrabhu
not if you have imposed reverse-choronolgy on the reader from your feed pages
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KartikPrabhu
i want to argue that using good words like "newer/older" solves that
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tantek
you cannot impose reverse-choronolgy on the reader, that's the point, not only can you not impose it, they are more likely to find your pages via search and external links, e.g. from our wiki
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tantek
even if you *try* to use reverse-choronolgy everywhere in all your lists - it won't matter, search (people using Google/Yahoo etc.) will lead people to permalink pages, not your lists
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes and on permalink pages "newer/older" as words provide context but on feed pages like the one I have they follow the usual reading flow of the feed page
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KartikPrabhu
this is a long debate. we should postpone it to the blogosphere when I have my post up.
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tantek
for that reason, I don't think newer/older actually makes sense on feed pages
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tantek
because of the confusion from reverse chronological order
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csarven
thinks that this is a UI problem.
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tantek
yes of course
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: yup! it is
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tantek
that's the entire discussion :)
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KartikPrabhu
was late by 2 seconds!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's one of the reasons why I think such sequential nav is bad UI for archives
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tantek
because of the confusion / inconsistency it introduces
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KartikPrabhu
oh that is intersting!
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tantek
a better UI for archives is to just show progressive disclosure nav of year(s) / month(s)
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tantek
or perhaps year(s) / bim(s) if you're into that sort of thing
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tantek
and most modern archives UIs show some form of year(s) / month(s) - from custom blogging systems, to WordPress, to FB "timeline"
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KartikPrabhu
I do have alist of "years" at the bottom but it is useful to navigate directly to the "next/prev" pages
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csarven
reads up
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KartikPrabhu
hasn't found a way to do pregressive disclosure without JS or running into infinite scroll stuff
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: a good pregressive disclosure year(s)/month(s) nav UI will have implicit next/prev built into it by its very layout
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tantek
no infinite scroll needed
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KartikPrabhu
thanks tantek for using propagating the "pregressive" typo ;)
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csarven
likes the discussion topic
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tantek
checks his itches list for nav
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: it is UI thing I have been bothered by for at least a few years
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KartikPrabhu
i hopefully will have a post on this for more debates. seems tantek has opposing views on all of my points. should be interesting :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you coming to IWC? agree with nav being challenging - I sketched what I wanted a few years ago and it fell too low on my itches list to get implemented (yet)
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KartikPrabhu
no. can't make it to any of the IWC. If this post sparks a debate/brainstorming at IWC that would be neat!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: like most UI discussions, I don't expect long posts back/forth to help actually
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csarven
KartikPrabhu I don't see a particular issue with the way you have your new/old. The context is clear enough (for me). Although this is not the same, here is my archives page in reverse chronological order http://csarven.ca/archives/articles . I do not use new/old/prev/next.
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tantek
typically more progress is made with brief chats, and even more with sketching stuff in person
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tantek
for UI discussions
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KartikPrabhu
now wants to make a "poll" post so people can indie-reply with a "vote" post of some kind :P
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csarven
I disagree with "KartikPrabhu no. previous = previously read/seen". Unless there is some sort of a tracking going on for that particular user, I don't see how that holds.
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tantek
what is a poll?
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csarven
I agree with "tantek time exists not from the poitn of the observer, but from the point of physical events"
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: of course the only issue is that the new/old direcitonality is opposite of what tantek recommends at http://tantek.com/2011/102/t2/navigation-arrows-back-past-forward-future-ui-pattern
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: yes. to me reading on the web is like reading a book from which "physical events of the future" mean the next thing to read
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KartikPrabhu
so basically conflicting with the "revers-choronology" reading that seems to be the norm today
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csarven
KartikPrabhu In order to declare the semantics of your prev/read and next/to be read, you have to introduce the variables which explain that context. I think the simplest context (in the absence of some additional information), the articles/events speak for themselves because they have a timestamp.
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KartikPrabhu
hence the use of "newer/older" which explicitly connote "time"
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KartikPrabhu
instead of "previous/next" which are ambiguous as to "prev/next" in time or reading-order
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: books are not ordered by how you different readers view the pages, but how the author *wrote* them
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csarven
Personally, I would rather not apply the physical/book reading behaviour/UX to how electronic/UX should work.
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KartikPrabhu
then why apply "time exist from point of view of 'physical events'" ?
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tantek
because it is a deterministic model
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csarven
In that context, I think tantek mean thtat physical event is in which the author timestamped the items.
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tantek
as opposed to reader-specific
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csarven
Not from the viewpoint of the user
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KartikPrabhu
I want to ask that is the "physical event order" in the context of the Web? is it actual time or is it reading order?
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csarven
Actual time of the item.
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KartikPrabhu
then why have "reverse chronology" of feed items?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you're assuming there is one reading order - there isn't - that's the problem I've tried to point out from the start. especially when readers find and read pages via search
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tantek
which is known to be more typical than any sequential nav on anyone's site
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: of course there isn't "one reading order" unless some one lands on your feed page
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csarven
Regardless of the UI, the entries have a timestamp which indicate what is before or after i.e., which entry came first and what is next. Time flows in one direction (as I understand it) :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: just because you can't assume one reading order doesn't mean you shouldn't provide some sort of default
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: yes. time does flow in one direction. so why not have it be consistent with the direction of readiing order in feed pages?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes. I am claiming (at least for now) that the default should be the order of the "stream"/feeds
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KartikPrabhu
of course on Twitter it all gets messed up
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csarven
KartikPrabhu Like I said, if you want to deal with it from the point of the user's past behaviour, you have to introduce that information into the UI somehow. And, that overrides the timestamps on the actual events. This is perfectly fine. However, it is an extra step - nothing fundamentally wrong with that in my opinion but tihngs could be misleading if the UI is not clear. On the other...
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csarven
...hand, basing the UI around what the entry describes itself, it would be safer and easier to follow / less confusion IMHO.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: there is no one "readiing order" per the point about how people land on your (typically permalink pages), therefore it is an error to design derivative UI elements accordingly
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tantek
there is however one sequence to the timestamps on your posts, therefore it does make sense to design consistent UI accordingly, consistent with textual information you already have visible on your posts, pages, lists, feeds.
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: yes agreed. I think having timestamp together with time-directional words like "newer/older" is better that any assumed "left/right" directionality
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KartikPrabhu
my point is: if one uses "newer/older" as explict words then this "left/right" choice is pointless
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csarven
KartikPrabhu If you talk about your proposal by including lets a session property, I think it'd be more clear. That property=value (where the user is/was/may go) is entirely absent from the raw content on the page. So, I would still say that basing the UI around visible/available content is safer/more valuable than any assumptions.
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: sure the current context is explicity visible on the pages as timestamps see: https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/2013
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KartikPrabhu
but it is a good point about having visible current context which I had not planned to include in my post :)
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@csarven
.@indiewebcamp is a good initiative to document practices and arrive at some recommended best-practices concerning data/UI/UX on the Web
(twtr.io/11Ez5638ToH)
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csarven
goes to clean his refrigerator.
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KartikPrabhu
plans to sleep
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@rhiaro
RT @csarven: .@indiewebcamp is a good initiative to document practices and arrive at some recommended best-practices concerning data/UI/UX …
(twtr.io/11F0LnwhYKC)
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rhiaro
Awesome, loqi picked that up before bridgy/twitter had finished chugging
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Loqi
yeah!
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KartikPrabhu
this Loqi guy is fast!
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Zegnat
Good morning all
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Loqi
Zegnat: KevinMarks__ left you a message 11 hours, 2 minutes ago: npr have transcripts for a lot of their shows and clips http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-03/line/1435962771886
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csarven
Wow, didn't realize how junk Google Slides are until now.
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KartikPrabhu
pretty mcuh very junk
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KartikPrabhu
HTML all the way
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KartikPrabhu
well actually the last one is Google Slides to PDF :P
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csarven
I should probably have a proper page for that
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KartikPrabhu
yes why not!
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csarven
Also need to update my CV so that the talks (events) point at the presentations/slides.
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KartikPrabhu
needs to have a web CV
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KartikPrabhu
does have a list of papers though https://kartikprabhu.com/papers badly markedup
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: try out h-resume for that and see how it works (or doesn't) for you
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csarven
Although this needs some work, I am now integrating slides directly in the articles e.g., see http://csarven.ca/this-paper-is-a-demo and click on the top-right menu, then "Shower". It enters the slideshow mode. :)
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csarven
some ^further work
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes have tried h-resume in the past, forgot what issues I ran into. Have to revisit it
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tantek
I think csarven ran into some issues too
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csarven
Or see another integration/embedding using <object> here: http://csarven.ca/call-for-linked-research . Use arrows.
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KartikPrabhu
csarven: neat stuff
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csarven
Hmm, I'm not sure which issues in particular, but I htink it had more to do with h-event/h-calendar i.e., not being able to have multiple calendars on the page.
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tantek
yes I think that was one of the issues
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csarven
Otherwise, h-resume is fine.
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tantek
since we don't have any consuming code implementations of h-resume yet, we don't really know what other unknown issues there are
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csarven
And, this is a recent "issue". hResume worked out well for me over the years. No complaints here.
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tantek
that's good to know
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KartikPrabhu
i did run into how to markup the same presentation given multiple times while making https://kartikprabhu.com/talks page
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csarven
I also remember Glenn (I think it was him) experimenting with my resume in one of the newspapers? Perhaps Guardian's CV resume view. Hard to recall exact names right now.
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tantek
yes - he had hResume consuming code
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csarven
I have to review my h-resume. Did site wide search/replace for mf1->mf2, so may have broke some stuff.
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tantek
csarven: past hResume implementations: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume#Implementations - in particular see the Madgex and Guardian Jobs entries
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csarven
That's it!
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csarven
if not already possible, it'd be cool to be able to update the mf/iwc wiki pages via IRC/Loqi. "Loqi Update http://example.org/foo#bar 'Hello world'"
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Loqi
woot!
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LukasRos
Hey everyone, not sure if I’ve just been absent from the chat for too long or if it’s the extreme heat outside but I had trouble remembering the name of the IRC client I have installed :o
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lukasrosenstock.net
created /phpADNSite (+496) "Created page with "'''<dfn>phpADNSite</dfn>''' is an open source software that allows [[App.net]] to be used as a backend for a personal IndieWeb site ([[PESOS]] approach). It has been developed b...""
(view diff)
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LukasRos
I’ve setup of CloudFlare for HTTPS on my website, will write a few notes about it on the wiki now.
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aaronpk
very cool!
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lukasrosenstock.net
created /CloudFlare (+2423) "Created page with "'''<dfn>CloudFlare</dfn>''' is a service to, in their own words, "supercharge your website". Essentially they provide a distributed DNS service and CDN that acts as a caching rev...""
(view diff)
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lukasrosenstock.net
edited /CloudFlare (+178) "/* Possible issues and disadvantages */"
(view diff)
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LukasRos
Ok, done.
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LukasRos
Hope it’s helpful.
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LukasRos
Time for tea break :)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor
suvisitor temp
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KevinMarks__
A thought for Tantek and Kartik: if you make newer up and older down on your note pages they will match the feed view - otherwise you are arguing about rotation direction
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KevinMarks__
Now I wonder whether pre-book scrolls were portrait or landscape
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Loqi
snarfed: bear left you a message on 7/3 at 6:51pm: plaintext in a locked down file is ok, ssh-agent with forward is best IMO http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-03/line/1435974681461
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snarfed
hoo boy, bridgy is working hard to crank through old posts it missed due to that bug. https://snarfed.org/415.png
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aaronpk
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 109 karma
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GWG
snarfed: Hope some of mine are in there
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snarfed
GWG: if they had link attachments, then probably yes!
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GWG
snarfed: Many did
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GWG
I deployed that timezone per post override feature. Wondering how that might affect feed readers
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: you should susbscribe to your own site to to testing instead of wondering
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GWG
I can in a few of them. But some I don't have access to.
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aaronpk
!tell fkooman I think it's actually the job of the token endpoint to prevent authorization codes from being used more than once.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Phyks
I was wondering is there anyone using mf2 for richer emails? Just thought it could be easy to tag dates and so on for easy calendar integration
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uhhyeahbret
Phyks: email is pretty tough to hack on
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uhhyeahbret
plus most people use gmail/webmail
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uhhyeahbret
so your stuck with browser plugins scraping infp
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parzzix
I am going to get my feet wet with learning to code. What do people here think about Learning Python the Hard Way? Any opinions?
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uhhyeahbret
parzzix: do you have any coding experience?
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uhhyeahbret
eg familar with functions, variables, loops and scope as concepts?
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bret
parzzix: any language the hard ways tend to be comprehensive
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bret
but I found it completely boring
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bret
if you have some familiarity with programming, the official python tutorial is good
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bret
(Start with 3)
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parzzix
i have no experience at all
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parzzix
i did take basic 20 years ago ;)
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parzzix
maybe 25
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parzzix
i am a little familiar with loops and variables
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bret
I would start with https://docs.python.org/3.5/tutorial/ if your curios about python
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bret
curious
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parzzix
thanks for the input bret
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kylewm
I've heard the same thing about LPTHW, comprehensive but slow moving and not very motivating.
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kylewm
parzzix: lemme pull up a blog post from my friend
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bret
i think being motivated and finding interest the material you use hugely important personally
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bret
there aren
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bret
oops
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bret
there aren
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bret
gives up on apostrophes
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parzzix
Yeah, I am open to anything ...thought about trying codecademy.com also
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bret
there arnt many good newbie introductory resources on go, but i find it to be a really practical language in a lot of ways
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kylewm
lots of good resources in this post (from friend who was doing LPTHW) http://codingwithkniv.es/2015/01/22/learning-python-reflections-and-new-directions/
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parzzix
thanks kylewm
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bret
http://codecademy.com/ is pretty good when getting started
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tantek
what is Neocities?
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Loqi
NeoCities is a free website hosting silo in the spirit of defunct silo GeoCities (Yahoo shutdown in 2009) that looks like a stepping stone to getting started on the IndieWeb https://indiewebcamp.com/NeoCities
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tantek
KevinMarks - always check the wiki first :)
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tantek
now back to hacking on scoped styles
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tantek
parzzix: re: learning to code - for the web I'd suggest start with HTML, CSS, JS
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csarven
Declarative > Imperative
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tantek
is now wondering what he or his code would/should do with a custom style on a "like" post, especially if in the middle of bunch of other likes...
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tantek
is deciding that perhaps its ok that likes can't have custom styles
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KevinMarks__
Parzzix: I'm a fan of Dive Into Python, though that does assume some programming knowledge, it builds well
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KevinMarks__
I've also had good reports on Dive Into HTML5
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tantek
Parzzix, I'd actually recommend against starting with any backend scripting languages, the reason being it gives you tail-wagging-the-dog perspective of web development.
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KevinMarks__
s/Dive Into/Heads Up/
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Loqi
KevinMarks__ meant to say: I've also had good reports on Heads Up HTML5
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KevinMarks__
Or is it head first? /me fails at book titles
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tantek
Head First
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tantek
looks like I need to switch my permalink pages to use <body class="h-entry"> to make custom post styles work in a data driven way that can be re-used as a scoped style.