#indiewebcamp 2015-07-19

2015-07-19 UTC
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kylewm Jeena: I have a firefox thing for quill/micropub https://kylewm.com/test/quill-firefox/
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kylewm there's basically nothing to it... just a manifest.js file that tells it which page to use
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Jeena It would be cool if all could use the same manifest file and you'd set the domain on your own
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Jeena but neat, thanks, I will try to use it
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Jeena Wow, very neat, I love it!
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aaronpk oh nice
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bear if I activate that (quill-firefox) where should it show up?
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kylewm little airplane icon in the top right toolbar
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bear oh - share this page
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kylewm or it might not be shown by default, in which case you have to go into "Customize"
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kylewm yes
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bear do I need to adjust the manifest
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aaronpk looks like it worked for me! minus a little fighting with my noscript plugin
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bear oh I see - it uses the quill site but I could change it to mine if I had one
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bear trying to use persona and persona's popup isn't fully loading
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aaronpk huh, that's actually the one I used to sign in just now
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bear the persona pop up loads but it has no fields and only a footer
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aaronpk weird. totally looks fine for me
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aaronpk also you can sign in to quill outside the share thing
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bear yea, was just testing it
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GWG Evening, all
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aaronpk bear: do you have any experience with etcd?
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Jeena bear I had the same problem just not with persona on this
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bret cool kylewm didn know about that
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GWG Anyone have any exciting Indieweb plans for the evening?
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ben_thatmustbeme i do have to stay up late tonight working on something
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ben_thatmustbeme so ya never know
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ben_thatmustbeme i did add a new post type last night GWG
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Yes, I think I caught it
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme what is a snark
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "snark" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=snark&summary=prompted+by+ben_thatmustbeme+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-18%2Fline%2F1437269917875
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aaronpk hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme a snark is an experimental post type to denote a sarcastic post. see https://twitter.com/OhMeadhbh/status/622189087550631937
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@OhMeadhbh when i build my own twitter replacement, it's going to have a "snark" check-box so you can denote when you're being snarky. (twitter.com/_/status/622189087550631937)
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ben_thatmustbeme what is a snark
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "snark" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=snark&summary=prompted+by+ben_thatmustbeme+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-18%2Fline%2F1437270010558
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ben_thatmustbeme snark is an experimental post type to denote a sarcastic post. see https://twitter.com/OhMeadhbh/status/622189087550631937
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@OhMeadhbh when i build my own twitter replacement, it's going to have a "snark" check-box so you can denote when you're being snarky. (twitter.com/_/status/622189087550631937)
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aaronpk I think Loqi is catching the twitter expansion before the wiki hook
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Loqi woot!
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ben_thatmustbeme a snark is an experimental post type to denote a sarcastic post.
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loqi.me created /snark (+89) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-18/line/1437269917875 and dfn added by ben_thatmustbeme" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Jeena Do we have "poke" as a post type too?
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aaronpk haha i don't think anyone has done that yet
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aaronpk but there was an indie "yo" at one of the IWCs
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Jeena what is yo
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Loqi Yo is an app for sending your contacts the text "Yo" https://indiewebcamp.com/Yo
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GWG I have plans to write some post types code, but still percolating on design.
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snarfed the irc log during the bridgy outage today is kinda hilarious :P
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snarfed kylewm++ for good firefighting!
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Loqi kylewm has 191 karma
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GWG I missed it all
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snarfed me too
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snarfed logs++
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Loqi logs has 5 karma
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GWG snarfed: How do I ask you about the micropub stuff without pestering you?
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snarfed GWG: lol, no need, the PR is on my todo list
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snarfed i can look now
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GWG snarfed: I don't want to rush you. Just I paused the work so I would't have too big a dump on you.
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GWG Next is Implied Post Types, Post Formats, and Post Kinds.
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snarfed GWG: no need to pause work! you can make a new branch from the PR and keep working
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GWG snarfed: I know. I just figured I'd give you time. Again, trying to avoid pestering.
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GWG I figured I'd work on the Post Kinds side, with code I'll use later to interface with the Micropub plugin
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GWG So, effectively same thing
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snarfed i haven't kept up with micropub changes since i wrote this
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snarfed hey aaronpk etc, is https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub up to date?
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GWG snarfed: I found a few things that people were doing that were non-standard as well.
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Jeena snarfed aaronpk had to restructure the IndieAuth part on the IWC http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:IndieAuth because 3 of us tried to get micropub working but it was difficult to get the first step done, the authentication
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snarfed thanks Jeena! i'm actually mostly interested in the non-auth parts
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aaronpk snarfed: yes it is! and actually reflects my latest implementation of a micropub endpoint as well
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snarfed great, thanks!
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aaronpk the only part that is somewhat in flux is the "mp-syndicate-to" bit
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snarfed ah, got it
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GWG snarfed: I implemented syndicate-to and made mp-syndicate-to an alias to it. Easy to swap the other way
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snarfed sgtm!
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snarfed backwardcompatibility++
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Loqi backwardcompatibility has 1 karma
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snarfed also aaronpk thanks for the css PR! i'll look soon. and if you do want to tackle how it generates markup, it's all in https://github.com/snarfed/granary/blob/master/granary/microformats2.py
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GWG snarfed: I forgot to merge the commits when I made the change.
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snarfed GWG: just push to the PR branch, they'll show up
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snarfed …oh you did it in master. that'll still work, but you'll want to use a branch next time
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GWG snarfed: I did. I switched the whitelist to showing everything.
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GWG snarfed: I know. I don't do much branching. I have to learn to work better with others.
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snarfed oh, sorry, i misunderstood. nm. ok!
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GWG snarfed: I just realized storing all variables means it stores the access token.
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snarfed lol, yeah, we need to blacklist a few
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snarfed also GWG if you plan to keep sending PRs, i'd love to see a unit test suite eventually!
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GWG snarfed: I'll have to figure out how to write one of those.
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snarfed thanks! i'm sure there's a common php+wp way
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GWG I'll try to find a tutorial.
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GWG My approach so far has been testing using micropub clients
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GWG That's why I filed an issue against Quill
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snarfed testing++
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Loqi testing has 6 karma
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GWG That's how I realized that having a query string for your endpoint means that querying it is an issue.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme was able to fix that in Postly already
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aaronpk snarfed: oh cool thanks
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Jeena How coo! I used kylewm's firefox thing for sharing to reply to a twitter message on my website without using my own frontend and it shows up on twitter and everything, amazing! https://twitter.com/cjk101010/status/622592624382373892
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@cjk101010 Finally back home again (twitter.com/_/status/622592624382373892)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /snark (+379) "snark info" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, yeah it was a fairly quick fix
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Just was more annoyed it took me that long to figure out what the issue was so I could file it.
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i'm sure i make that assumption in other places
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ben_thatmustbeme did you try mobilepub
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Not yet.
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ben_thatmustbeme i should check the code there
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Loqi +1
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snarfed GWG: curious, how did you decide to return the q=syndicate-to response as url-encoded with php array syntax?
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snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Querying doesn't say anything about the response
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GWG I thought that was what it was supposed to be?
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GWG It seemed to work in testing with Postly, as the only client that works with queries.
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snarfed oh it may be! i don't know. i'm asking how you know :P
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snarfed ahh i see, it's what postly does
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GWG Also, everything else seemed to be urlencoded, so I figured..
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snarfed i don't actually see much at all specified about responses, right? definitely not url-encoded?
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snarfed i'm fine with it, just curious
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snarfed could you and aaronpk and ben_thatmustbeme agree on that and add it to the spec?
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snarfed (ie the q=syndicate-to response format)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: What is your take?
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GWG (I think he's still here)
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ben_thatmustbeme i am
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry
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ben_thatmustbeme catching up
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, yes, i don't think i'm the only one to do that. I think aaronpk does it too, many require a token to get that though
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ben_thatmustbeme so it was said to keep everything in form encoded as that was the default
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ben_thatmustbeme with postly, if you send a request for json it should return it as json too
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GWG aaronpk returns everything as content type application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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snarfed thanks guys! it'd be good to say that officially in https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Querying
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snarfed (and the expected param name, and that it's php array syntax, etc)
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GWG I think the array syntax is a definite. Everything else is
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david.shanske.com edited /Micropub (+297) "/* Querying */" (view diff)
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GWG There was an example in the brainstorming section
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snarfed GWG: thanks for the edit!
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ben_thatmustbeme things probably got a bit muddied when we split it out to the two pages
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ben_thatmustbeme thats probably where that info got missed
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snarfed thanks for working on this btw, GWG! i definitely appreciate the updates
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GWG snarfed: I'm incorporating your feedback.
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snarfed thanks!
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GWG Pushed
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GWG I also added that blacklist
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GWG It won't store the access token anymore
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snarfed thanks!
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snarfed GWG: looking good! i think one last round of feedback, and one last round of manual testing to confirm everything still works after the changes, and it'll be good to go
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GWG I'm working on the readme now
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snarfed GWG: could you also document the new filters and mention them in the changelog?
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snarfed thx
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GWG snarfed: Anything else that needs to be blacklisted by default?
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GWG Other than the access_token?
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GWG I can't think of anything right now.
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snarfed GWG: looking at https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Reserved_properties , i think just token
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GWG I have one more thing I probably should add. Pushing now.
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GWG snarfed: Should be done for now.
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snarfed GWG: thanks! all i have left is a few small readme tweaks
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GWG snarfed: I'll be back next week with 0.5
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snarfed mind manually testing everything again, both new and existing features? just to make sure we didn't break anything with the review feedback
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snarfed 0.5?
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GWG snarfed: This is version 0.4
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snarfed ah ok
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GWG It posts using Quill
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snarfed great! i'm guessing editing with u= doesn't work just yet though
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GWG I didn't do anything with that.
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snarfed GWG: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/pull/12#discussion_r34954780
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GWG Oh, that
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GWG I think it only shows url= right now
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snarfed GWG: sorry, i don't understand
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GWG snarfed: I think I reverted the u= change because the spec is unclear on it
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snarfed it looks like it's actually now edit-of=, not u= ? https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Update
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GWG That is why I got confused about it
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snarfed also https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Reserved_properties
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snarfed seems like it just changed from url= to edit-of= . not too confusing
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GWG There.
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snarfed GWG: thanks! we still want to be backward compatible w/url= though
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snarfed also line 135, missing an f
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GWG Fixed the typo, added the conditional
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GWG i will have to test editing a bit more.
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snarfed thanks!
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snarfed testing++
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Loqi testing has 7 karma
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snarfed looking forward to the unit tests before the next PR! :P
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GWG snarfed: As soon as I learn. Is this PR done though?
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snarfed GWG: getting close!
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snarfed have you manually tested url=, edit-of=, and q= ?
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GWG q= Yes.
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GWG But not url or edit-of.
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GWG I haven't done any editing at all
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GWG Let me do one now
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snarfed please do test them
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snarfed thanks!
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GWG edit-of does not work as per spec. It may never have
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snarfed can you elaborate? do you mean the update, add, and delete params don't work?
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snarfed if so, that's ok, we just want edit-of to work like url currently does
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GWG It does.
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GWG But the url one didn't work properly
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GWG It overwrites the published time.
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snarfed ah. that was an existing bug? that's fine, we can fix that later
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snarfed otherwise updating with url= and edit-of= both work?
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GWG Yes. It also overwrites previously set fields if the new ones are blank.
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GWG Yes.
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snarfed huh, i thought the PR prevents writing blank values
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snarfed looking
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GWG I'd suggest reading the existing post out, and merging the two arrays.
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snarfed GWG: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/pull/12/files#diff-4da5a8af3b72badbb8e253c48bf9a16cR444 , right?
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GWG That is for post meta, not for the post args
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snarfed confused
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snarfed but no matter
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GWG I'll save that for a future PR
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snarfed the last thing to do is squash commits
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snarfed https://help.github.com/articles/about-git-rebase/
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GWG Squashed
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snarfed looks great GWG, merging now. congrats!
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GWG Next, I have to figure out a simple way to write out the massive list for implied post types.
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snarfed GWG: maybe unit tests before that? they'll let you skip all the manual testing :P
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GWG I have to learn how to write those. Which means I have to find some literature.
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snarfed sure! very doable
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GWG One is a problem I can think about, the other is a problem I can't think about till I have some more knowledge.
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snarfed true! but the tests will give us both more confidence that everything keeps working through the rest of your upcoming PRs
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snarfed especially since i don't actually use micropub much, so i wouldn't notice otherwise if it breaks
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GWG snarfed: My intention is to get it to the point I could use it.
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snarfed understood!
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GWG On that note, I'm going to sleep on i
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Loqi [bridgy] Elizabeth S Hunker RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/1455747814748163#862576408367)
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@benborges_ Two years of being on the #indieweb http://werd.io/2015/two-years-of-being-on-the-indieweb https://twitter.com/benborges_/status/622730449748516864/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/622730449748516864)
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@occupybrussels RT @benborges_: Two years of being on the #indieweb http://werd.io/2015/two-years-of-being-on-the-indieweb https://twitter.com/benborges_/status/622730449748516864/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/622731777317187584)
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Loqi [bridgy] Brian Friedman RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/1455747814748163#10204824857204414)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Why do you send title as opposed to name, which is in the examples?
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, is that the correct value?
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ben_thatmustbeme that would make sense, since its the correct way to do it in mf2
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seekr waves at ben_thatmustbeme and hopes to chat about a f2f meeting soonish (?)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Want me to file an issue?
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GWG Filed
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: What does your client use for editing? Edit-of?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, no, just url and mp-action=edit
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't do so called "edit' posts
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: The spec no longer shows url=, it shows edit-of as the reserved property.
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ben_thatmustbeme is getting annoyed with things being added to the "spec" without the reasoning behind them
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess if you wanted to change the permalink of the post
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ben_thatmustbeme seems like something you shouldn't do
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GWG I'm confused again
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voxpelli I guess the Micropub spec is still pretty young so things should be expected to change as more experience is gathered from additional implementations?
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme its started going too fast for me to keep up
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't read all the logs in IRC any more
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ben_thatmustbeme its too much with working too
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm guessing a good bit of the changes are coming from activity pump comparison
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voxpelli I rarely have time to read any of the logs, I just keep working in my part of the indieverse and sync up with the rest every now and then :)
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GWG I need to figure this out, I guess
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voxpelli but a good argument to get automated test tools, so we can all easily check whether we need to change something in our endpoints or clients
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GWG voxpelli: I'm not sure I'm the best person to write them.
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voxpelli GWG: I may take a stab at it, but not sure I have the time to get something out soon
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GWG I just keep discovering different issues.
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GWG For example, now this editing issue.
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GWG Who, other than ben_thatmustbeme, supports editing in their client?
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ben_thatmustbeme don't know of anyone
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why it annoys me if it changes without me knowing
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: My problem keeps being that I think I'm making a mistake, when I'm coming up against differences in implementation
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GWG Which aren't anyone's fault, but confusing me.
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, not likely
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: your entry on the client list on the micropub list doesn't say that you support edits btw
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snarfed testing++ GWG voxpelli!
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Loqi testing has 8 karma
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voxpelli I find the currently documented edit API a bit odd – because the form-encoded values all of the sudden mimics the JSON-format rather than the format of form-encoded creates
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GWG snarfed: My testing is stymied by this issue though.
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GWG I think we need to agree on the edit API before I try to improve edit support.
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GWG So, maybe I should just focus on create right now
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snarfed GWG: i haven't followed what "this issue" is, but adding unit tests to the existing code should be doable without solving any new issue
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voxpelli GWG: by the edit issue? if so: hard to test something that it seems that no one really supports. If there's no support for a spec, does that spec really exist? And can one test something that doesn't really exist? ;)
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snarfed heh, we're just talking about unit tests for existing code. (or at least i am.) voxpelli you're probably talking about something bigger that you can run against any server or client
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voxpelli snarfed: yep, as that's the only way we can ensure conformance between many different implementations
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snarfed both would be good!
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GWG snarfed: The issue is still the same. ben_thatmustbeme is the only one supporting edits I've noticed so far in his client, and his implementation doesn't match the one in the wiki.
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voxpelli snarfed: so something like https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger but for micropub is what I'm thinking
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GWG So, trying to test we're accepting the right requests is hard for that reason.
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snarfed GWG: sure, understood. worth solving! independently, it'd be worth writing unit tests. they're unrelated.
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+55) "/* Postly */ mention edit ability" (view diff)
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snarfed even if we just added unit tests for all the non-edit functionality, that'd be hugely valuable
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snarfed voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 30 karma
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voxpelli my endpoint currently solves "editing" by simply replacing any existing document if someone tries to create it again
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snarfed heh
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: do you pull in all data from the old post to make it easier
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: That is what your edit functionality does as well
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: I just create a new file from scratch and let that file replace the old one – no pulling of data – so the client has to have persisted some stuff in itself, like the Editorial.app workflow I created does
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: i don't pull from the db directly, what i do is passing a url to the client, will have the client poll and parse the mf2 of the post and then prefill the fields
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ben_thatmustbeme at least as best it can
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ben_thatmustbeme lets me put "edit" links when i log in to my own site
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: right, that makes sense on the client side, and then just like I'm doing – make a replace on the server side
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voxpelli btw, the relevant change around edits from the Micropub wiki page: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Micropub&diff=prev&oldid=20148
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voxpelli aaronpk made a change a
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voxpelli a change at 24:th of june
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk never did like the idea of explicit crud
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ben_thatmustbeme ahhhh, i see
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ben_thatmustbeme weird
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voxpelli relevant time in the logs: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-24#t1435174672789
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ben_thatmustbeme but delete vs delete-of
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ben_thatmustbeme so now dropping all mp- prefixes
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ben_thatmustbeme :/
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voxpelli so the change was apparently to resolve: https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub-brainstorming#Explicit_CRUD
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aaronpk my ears were burning
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ben_thatmustbeme i had solved that with mp-action...
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voxpelli really? dropping all mp- prefixes? I thought such prefixes made sense, to differentiate between directives made to the micropub endpoint itself and directives that are part of the actual content
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ben_thatmustbeme me too
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ben_thatmustbeme i actually updated everythign to use mp-syndicate-to
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ben_thatmustbeme mp-url is wrong though as u-url is a property of the object
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aaronpk the edit syntax is derived from the idea of "edit posts"
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voxpelli In my endpoint I include all non-mp prefixed data in the post files
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aaronpk i thought i had an example of showing that derivation on the wiki, but can't find it
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snarfed GWG: so far i've found https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/testing/automated-testing/ and https://wordpress.org/plugins/presstest/ , neither of which is exactly what we want - we want something for plugins that we can run from the command line - but they could be good leads
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ben_thatmustbeme seemed like a good seperation of concerns
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ben_thatmustbeme an actual place where namespacing makes sense
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought the idea was concensus from the community before making changes to a spec
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voxpelli snarfed: GWG: this boilerplate contains a PHPUnit setup: https://github.com/frozzare/wp-plugin-boilerplate
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voxpelli snarfed: GWG: also: https://github.com/frozzare/wp-test-suite
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snarfed voxpelli: ooh perfect thank you! does it set up test db tables too? or mock the db? or…?
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ben_thatmustbeme don't remember seeing any of that in the brainstorming first
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ben_thatmustbeme clearly it wasn't if "this has been solved by X change to the spec"
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aaronpk i went back and forth on this with tantek a bunch
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voxpelli snarfed: not sure – I know the guy that has created those repos, but never actually used them myself – I think he will happily answer questions (but he may be on vacation now of course)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek doesn't implement micropub though
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aaronpk oh here it is
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Edit_a_specific_property
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voxpelli aaronpk: on the question that GWG had: does any client actually implement these edits? so one can have a client to try with?
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ben_thatmustbeme so wait, we are doing edits via as2 now?
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aaronpk as2 what?
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snarfed lol that'd be the day
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aaronpk voxpelli: i don't think so. i was testing my development of a micropub endpoint with curl commands
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voxpelli snarfed: GWG: the official Twitter WordPress plugin also has tests, might be worth looking at as well: https://github.com/twitter/wordpress
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ben_thatmustbeme thats what the looks like
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aaronpk i don't know why you think that looks like as2
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: edits makes use of the mf2 JSON-data format
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ben_thatmustbeme oh thats just posting an "edit post"
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aaronpk the idea is you create an "edit" post which describes what changes in the thing you're editing
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ben_thatmustbeme why?
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aaronpk you don't actually have to create the edit post. the micropub syntax for edits is derived from this "edit post", basically a trimmed down version of it, similar to how creating a post is a trimmed down version of an mf2 h-entry
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ben_thatmustbeme "Consumers of this post must act only on non-empty property values on the object embedded on the "p-update" property. " made me think you are proposing this h-entry to cause the edit
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ben_thatmustbeme it does move toward unification i suppose
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aaronpk you certainly *can*
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raucao hi
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aaronpk and the nice thing is that you can then use the same logic to handle parsing an edit post and parsing a micropub request
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voxpelli I think I like this (would still keep mp- prefixes for eg. syndicate-to and such though I think)
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raucao was there any progress with private sharing (groups or sth else) after Düsseldorf?
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aaronpk so you are one step closer to being able to accept "pull requests" from edit posts
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aaronpk raucao: yeah most of it is documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention
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voxpelli aaronpk: except that edits use the JSON-data format in a form-encoded format which makes it pretty different from a normal form-encoded micropub-reqiest, no?
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raucao aaronpk: cool, thanks21
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aaronpk voxpelli: yeah the challengs is there isn't a good non-nested form-encoded syntax for edits
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voxpelli aaronpk: for consistency I would change the normal creates to the same format as well
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voxpelli right now I represent everything as the JSON objects internally in my endpoint, and convert all form-encoded object to the JSON-style
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voxpelli now I would have to expect two different formats for the form-encoded formats
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aaronpk voxpelli: it's actually pretty simple
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aaronpk form-encoded create requests have all properties of the post in the request body, except the "h" value. json-encoded create requests have all properties under the "properties" key
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aaronpk my endpoint actually has the same code handling the create logic, i just pass it either $_POST or $request->properties
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voxpelli yes, and form-encoded edits also have all properties under a properties key then?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: "pull requests" for you posts? does any social network do that?
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aaronpk form-encoded and json-encoded edits use the same serialization
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: Github
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snarfed also google docs etc
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: all my micropub actions are added as commits to a git branch somewhere ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: well, thats a matter of internal data structure :P
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GWG watches the chatter
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snarfed i think wordpress may also let you propose line-level changes to posts. not sure
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm just thinking if facebook allowed people to 'suggest an edit' how insanely terrible it would be
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: could actually be used by an editor to pull content live from authors
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: true! fortunately we can learn from more silos than just FB :P
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: s/facebook/twitter s/facebook/google+ s/facebook/anything that isnt' editing code
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ben_thatmustbeme or documents (google docs)
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snarfed or posts (wordpress) ?
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snarfed code + docs + posts is a pretty damn big space :P
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ben_thatmustbeme can you propose edits to posts in WP?
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snarfed i mentioned that i think so above ^^^
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ben_thatmustbeme scrolls back
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm doing a data migration today for work
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snarfed not guaranteed
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ben_thatmustbeme so missing section
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snarfed hoo boy, migrations. always fun/painful. break a leg!
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, but we are finally getting to toss out the idiot former co-workers code
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ben_thatmustbeme if all goes well
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 104 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme he put everything in a seperate DB that had nothing to do with the original, and he clearly did not know how to design a DB.... or organize code
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snarfed such minor details!
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ben_thatmustbeme huh https://wordpress.org/plugins/post-forking/
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, silo examples, i take it back
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ben_thatmustbeme never seen that before
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: also not any sort of straight migration.. a whole bunch of ruby code to translate structure
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ben_thatmustbeme and consume things like changes to customer data being stored a html in the db...... rather than fields and generating the html on output
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ben_thatmustbeme which means there are entries that are wrong
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ben_thatmustbeme gah
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bret So in micropub, where you accept a JSON body instead of urlencoded
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bret there is no suppored way to handle files?
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bret it dosnt really make sence to shove JSON into multipart
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bret eg, nobody is supporting base64 encoded images or anything like that?
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voxpelli bret: yeah, I think JSON + multipart isn't supported
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voxpelli I'm not supporting it at least
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voxpelli (working on file uploads right now)
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bret https://github.com/mscdex/busboy was pretty good
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bret there might be better multipart handlers
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voxpelli bret: yep, I've used that before and now uses it through https://github.com/expressjs/multer
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KevinMarks_ data URLs inside the content body work. kinda sketchy, but they do work.
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bret KevinMarks_: you mean like a URL pointing to an image hosted elsewhere?
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KevinMarks_ you could check for them and put them in your own storage instead...
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bret inside a JSON body?
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KevinMarks_ no I mean an inline data: URL for an image. Quill editor sends them
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bret KevinMarks_: oh hrmm i haven't inspected the Quill Article editor
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bret requests
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KevinMarks_ eg http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/missing-ui-from-new-quill
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KevinMarks_ the images in that were sent as data: from quill editor
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bret KevinMarks_: are they based64 encoded?
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KevinMarks_ yes
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bret ohhh
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bret crap
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bret ok
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bret voxpelli: ^^
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Loqi lolz
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KevinMarks_ as I said, not ideal, but backwards compatible
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bret KevinMarks_: what would be better?
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bret multipart
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bret ?
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voxpelli well, data:uri:s in image tags is more a kind if HTML-data than file data :P so I will probbaly leave them alone
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voxpelli multipart is better as one can stream upload those directly to disk or cloud service without ever keeping them in memory or such
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bret is there an S3 or flicker Writable Stream package?
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voxpelli what I did at my previous Busboy-project was that I streamed the upload directly to Cloudinary
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bret cool
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voxpelli bret: https://github.com/voxpelli/node-one-page/blob/master/lib/admin/base.js#L214
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bret voxpelli: did file.pipe(stream) not work?
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voxpelli bret: and regarding S3, yep: https://github.com/maxogden/abstract-blob-store
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voxpelli bret: not sure, wrote that 2 years ago + haven't done that much with node's streams
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bret i think that might be some suguar to make streams more streamy
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bret KevinMarks_: the alternative to is just embedding external images on authorship
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GWG returns from lunch and catches up
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GWG Was there actually a consensus
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KevinMarks Yes, that works too - imgur your way through (or svgur.com l
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tantek digging up a little # FSWS2010 history (Twitter search), and found this quote (which I do remember saying, just didn't have a citation for it before!) https://twitter.com/walkah/status/18857817565
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@walkah "indie web first, oligarchies second" /via @tantekcom #fsws2010 (twitter.com/_/status/18857817565)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey tantek
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tantek good day ben_thatmustbeme
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GWG I keep sending snarfed pull requests over unit tests. I'll get there, but I just fixed some nagging behaviors.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: you see my new post type? hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme what is a snark?
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Loqi snark is an experimental post type to denote a sarcastic post https://indiewebcamp.com/snark
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tantek sigh
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Can I send you a snark about my feelings on snarks?
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kylewm thinking about person tagging... i'm considering "upgrading" any regular tag to a person tag if the name matches the name of a contact
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aaronpk Yeah I definitely don't want to go down the route of trying to do file uploads with JSON requests
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kylewm any raeson that shouldn't work? like "tantek" always gets upgraded to an h-card
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tantek kylewm: that sounds like a reasonable UI - but I wouldn't do it serverside
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tantek such person-name auto-suggest UIs are fairly common on various silos, yet they always give you the ability to just have the plain text
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kylewm so server side you'd recommend storing it more explicitly
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kylewm rather than the implicit "if these two things happen to match up"
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tantek right - I don't think the server should try to be "intelligent" like that, but rather build such intelligence into the interactive client so the user can make an explicit choice (and have it be respected by the server)
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, client side is a lot better
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aaronpk I was struggling earlier trying to decide whether to store person tags in a separate list from regular tags
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kylewm what'd you decide aaronpk?
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tantek no need - as you can store them just as URLs alongside non-URL tags
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i went with storing in the same list, but flagging it as a tag
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tantek if you like, you can *cache* the person-tagness (name, photo etc.) next to the URLs
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aaronpk I can see doing it both ways. I decided to store them separately so my logic in the templates is simpler
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aaronpk Since I show them in separate lists
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ben_thatmustbeme i show them in the same list, so it made sense to keep them together
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kylewm do either of you cross-reference tags to your contacts-list thing?
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tantek perhaps /nicknames-cache ?
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GWG Post Kinds thinks everything coming in from Micropub is an RSVP. Think I need to switch projects for a bit.
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aaronpk kylewm: I don't yet but only because I was in a rush doing it and only show the URL right now. Planning on looking up the URL in my nicknames cache to display the tag better soon
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emmak what about uploading photos and media separately from the post?
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kylewm has decision paralysis, will come back to this later
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: not yet, but definitely on my to-do list
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aaronpk emmak: there should be no problem referencing a URL in the "photo" property
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aaronpk If you don't do anything special, and just store Micropub values as they come in, it will Just Work
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GWG aaronpk: You still need to know how to display the properties, don't you?
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aaronpk Yes but that can happen when the post is being rendered
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emmak a client could publish a jpg binary, save the returned "location" header, then make a json post with photo property set to that location
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kylewm presumably that's the kind of think you'd want to do to support storing photos in S3 or something
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aaronpk Yep I expect some clients/servers to do that for sure
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voxpelli emmak: I think I saw somewhere around Micropub that one should support plain URL:s as input in addition to file uploads
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voxpelli then how one makes a file available on that URL is up to oneself more or less
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aaronpk I was actually considering making the Quill editor do that, rather than the crazy data uri thing it does now
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voxpelli I'm creating supports for files mostly because OwnYourGram is sending them and it felt like a good tool to support :P
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emmak what is data uri?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "data uri" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=data+uri&summary=prompted+by+emmak+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-19%2Fline%2F1437328964505
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aaronpk data uri is a syntax for embedding file data (usually images) in an HTML img tag
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loqi.me created /data_uri (+107) "prompted by emmak https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-19/line/1437328964505 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk Feel free to expand :-)
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emmak thanks :)
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emmak that is cool you can start a wiki entry just by talking to loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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KevinMarks_ the data uri is an interesting fallback
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KevinMarks_ that it worked from quill through silo.pub was neat
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voxpelli it's a neat way of making self-contained html-pieces
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KevinMarks_ hm, if a micropub endpoint parses for img URLs, fetches them and stores them in its own store, then using data: or an intermediate upload service ends up equivalent
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@t 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro ... http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/622834198383038464)
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tantek unintended typo: interopeerable - interoperable peer to peer
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@evanpro RT @t: 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro ... http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/622834718053019648)
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@codebear RT @t: 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro ... http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/622835312973230085)
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bear that was a great meeting
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tantek bear - looking at the photos made me nostalgic, and realized that I'd used the wrong tag on mine in Flickr! (now fixed obv) https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/fsws2010/interesting/
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bear that is when I met most of you for the first time
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tantek I think I'm going to leave that typo in just for the subtle lol
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bear I love that typo
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GWG I remember the day I met bear and tantek.
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GWG It was a magical experience
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tantek !tell kylewm been playing with Woodwind, noticed a few things. 1) subscribe to a domain (kylewm.com) errors w/o http:// in front, 2) long URLs in posts causes horizontal scroll, 3) could use white-space:prewrap for displaying notes with higher fidelity.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /mobile (+449) "document challenges, long URLs causing horizontal scroll, solution" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /mobile (-13) "/* long URLs causing horizontal scroll */ -tags" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm here's the CSS for getting longURLs to linewrap more nicely: https://indiewebcamp.com/mobile#long_URLs_causing_horizontal_scroll
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm tantek: cool thanks for the feedback! definitely want to avoid horizontal scroll. I saw those errors in the logs trying to subscribe to schemaless domains. I thought <input type="url"> was doing input validation on those for me, does noscript bypass that?
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 6 minutes ago: been playing with Woodwind, noticed a few things. 1) subscribe to a domain (kylewm.com) errors w/o http:// in front, 2) long URLs in posts causes horizontal scroll, 3) could use white-space:prewrap for displaying notes with higher fidelity. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-19/line/1437332112069
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: here's the CSS for getting longURLs to linewrap more nicely: https://indiewebcamp.com/mobile#long_URLs_causing_horizontal_scroll http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-19/line/1437332340874
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tantek not all browsers support input type="url", and you must always do input validation on the server regardless since form submissions can be faked
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tantek the /Monocle code seems to handle subscribing to schemeless domains
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kylewm ok good to know. what browser were you using out of curiosity?
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tantek mobile safari / iOS 8
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tantek (so reasonably new)
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tantek I'm not a huge fan of the draconian UI imposed by input type=url FWIW
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kylewm hehe, yeah it feels like the 90s
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tantek input type=url is fixable however, using JS
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tantek see the example use of <input type="url"> here http://tantek.com/relmeauth/ and the inline <script> that makes it friendlier! (i.e. you can type in kylewm.com and it won't complain)
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tantek (I really should just blog that solution)
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tantek (too many things to blog!)
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@kevinmarks “there’s no realistic hope that websites will actually improve from here.” @felixsalmon misses the #indieweb of hope http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jul/19/ad-tech-online-experience-facebook-apple-news?CMP=indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/622845598761259008)
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KevinMarks You should. Or suggest it to the html spec
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Loqi definitely
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tantek ok added it to my blog-this.txt queue :)
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@rejon RT @t: 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro ... http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/622846977722593280)
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@nickreynoldsatw RT @kevinmarks: “there’s no realistic hope that websites will actually improve from here.” @felixsalmon misses the #indieweb of hope http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/622850097534136320)
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KevinMarks I should blog the fragment links to things with floating headers thing
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@CascadingSSrr 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro organize http://www.rightrelevance.com/search/articles/hero?article=af0060d9c2df41cfa8356ba6b5786c6846b6c7cb&query=cascading%20style%20sheets&taccount=cascadingssrr (twitter.com/_/status/622858950610780160)
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KevinMarks_ if I have a website that is static pages, should i mark it up as h-entry?
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bret KevinMarks_: what do you mean?
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bret example?
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KevinMarks_ well, it's site for may wife's teaching business, wiht 4 pages
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KevinMarks_ headsuptutoring.com
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KevinMarks_ when it was one page h-card made sense
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KevinMarks_ now I'm not quite sure.
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bret ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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bret whats the use case?
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bret ;shrug
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bret oops
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kylewm grrr, i have some python code for calling the flickr api. it works fine on the command line, but when i run it inside appengine it gives Permission denied
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kylewm oauth1--
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Loqi oauth1 has -2 karma
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cweiske shouldn't that be yourpythonflickrapi-- or flickr-- instead of bashing a protocol?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: it seems pretty generally accepted that oauth1 is harder to use than oauth2
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Loqi slack/snarfed: not "bashing" necessarily; oauth1 was a huge achievement and step forward!
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GWG snarfed, saw your message, by the way
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hey, good!
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kylewm cweiske: maybe, the fault could be with python or flickr or whatever. but oauth1 is what makes it opaque and difficult to debug
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@funkyfoe RT @kevinmarks: “there’s no realistic hope that websites will actually improve from here.” @felixsalmon misses the #indieweb of hope http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/622872702496456705)
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@jimpick RT @kevinmarks: “there’s no realistic hope that websites will actually improve from here.” @felixsalmon misses the #indieweb of hope http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/622877758016720896)
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GWG pfefferle just added me to wordpress-uf2. I wonder if this means I have arrived.
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bret indieweb soundcloud? https://github.com/meandavejustice/wave-edit
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KevinMarks__ Kylewm is that part of appengine wrapping things?
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KevinMarks__ Appengine fetching things needs care, I was getting some errors with unmung.com until I switched to explicit fetching
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KevinMarks__ If you want socket level access you need a paid account I think
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KevinMarks__ They wrapped their fetch api in urlopener iirc
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GWG is reading about PHPUnit
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GWG Learning to write unit tests is hard
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snarfed1 testing++
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Loqi testing has 9 karma
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snarfed thanks GWG!
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bear it's hard but oh my is it so useful and helpful
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 68 karma
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bear gwg__
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bear gwg++
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GWG bear: Any advice?
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Loqi gwg has 106 karma
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GWG I've never written one.
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snarfed every time you write code, you then have to test it. you can do it manually or automatically. i know which i prefer :P
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GWG Trying to test Micropub in PHP
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snarfed GWG: are you looking at the examples in the issue i filed?
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bear start simple and borrow heavily from other people's use of the unit test lib you use
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snarfed agreed
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snarfed GWG: other than phpunit, the two key parts for these will probably be 1) either creating/deleting the db tables for the test to use, or mocking out the db, and 2) figuring out how to give the wordpress code an http request and get a response
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snarfed i definitely recommend looking at the example links in that issue
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snarfed GWG++!
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Loqi GWG has 107 karma
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bear you will find working with databases and HTTP endpoints some of the hardest tests to write
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snarfed maybe so. fortunately in this case we can just copy what these examples do
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bear I will often isolate the code that has to write to the database just so I can test everything around it except the actual database call
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bear ah - having working unit tests to copy from is awesome sauce
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GWG We have working ones?
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snarfed GWG: read https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/14 . i cc'ed you :P
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GWG snarfed: The thing is that it is trying to test outgoing code, not incoming code.
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snarfed outgoing code?
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snarfed and which of those three linked repos are you talking about?
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GWG snarfed: I think I have to write something that simulates a client.
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GWG In the unit tests I saw there, they are unit testing the client code. Whereas we're unit testing server code
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snarfed huh, ok. let me look. i'm sure at least one of those three examples will work for us
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GWG I think I need to write a class to generate Micropub calls, and then run unit tests with that so it can test the server.
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GWG But, this is my first unit test
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snarfed looking now
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bret neat http://phpepl.cloudcontrolled.com/
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GWG Either way, I'll try and learn, I suppose. Having a class that implements client functions is not a bad thing either.
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GWG Clearly we lack clients anyway
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snarfed GWG: really?! https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Clients lists 16!
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snarfed anyway, don't go too far down that road. we're not looking for a test client; we just want unit tests
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GWG snarfed: None of them note edit support.
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GWG snarfed: That was the issue earlier today
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snarfed sure
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GWG snarfed: So basically, my idea is to write some functions that implement a barebones client, then the unit tests use them to send in some arbitrary data.
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bret emmak, voxpelli https://www.npmjs.com/package/jsonwebtoken
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bret for self encoded tokens
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snarfed GWG: i understand the idea, i just don't think that's what we want. give me a little time and i'll find the right example.
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GWG snarfed: Okay. As I said, might be the wrong approach.
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snarfed to be fair, GWG, that is basically what we're going to do, i just expect it will be much more minimal than you're thinking
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GWG snarfed: I figure...if I have to write the code, might as well write it so it can be reused, even if barebones.
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snarfed GWG: sure! if you want to write a general purpose micropub tester that can be used against any (remote) server, sure. that's not what i'm asking for here though
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bret aaronpk, kylewm (maybe even snarfed) whats a good example of a JSON web token signing secret?
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bret how long should that thing be ?
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bret This sucker: http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint#$encryption_key
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GWG snarfed: I know it isn't strictly necessary, but I was thinking of the big picture.
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snarfed GWG: not at all, it's a great idea! i know voxpelli was interested earlier. i'm sure lots of other people would be too
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snarfed i just want simple unit tests for wp-micropub too, independent of a bigger test client
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GWG snarfed: What is missing, from what I can see, is a micropub client library
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GWG snarfed: Did you find the simple example though?
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emmak bret: long enough that its impractical to brute-force
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snarfed GWG: https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Open_Source says there are two PHP micropub libs. looks like at least one is a client, maybe both
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snarfed GWG: not yet, working on day job stuff. i'll let you know.
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emmak 8 bytes would be 2^64 possible secret keys
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bret cool (or emma :)
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bret emmak++
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Loqi emmak has 13 karma
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emmak i've used 16-18 bytes from the openssl random bytes function for this type of thing
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GWG snarfed: p3k-micropub is part of aaronpk's p3k system, and thus pretty specific. Also appears to be server, not client.
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snarfed GWG: sure, ok. the taproot one says it's client side
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GWG snarfed: It appears to be authentication only.
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snarfed GWG: so "implements both client app and resource provider authentication " on the wiki is lying?
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snarfed surprising
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GWG snarfed: Wrong library linked?
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snarfed GWG: got me, i haven't looked
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snarfed i'm guessing it's findable
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aaronpk My rule of thumb with keys is as long as you have at least as many bits as a uuid you're fine
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GWG aaronpk: Do you know if Taproot ever got its full micropub client library? I can't find it
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GWG Because the one linked on the page is an Indieauth client library, not a MicroPub one
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snarfed GWG: also try wiki history
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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snarfed hey tantek
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GWG barnabywalters put it in, which is consistent
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tantek is trying to follow the auth related discussions as best he can.
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bret emmak: you should link your token endpoint on http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint#$encryption_key#Examples
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bret err http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint#provides+tokens+a
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@LootMountain 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro organize http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/622914073148194816)
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snarfed GWG: this looks like a good tutorial to follow: https://pippinsplugins.com/unit-tests-wordpress-plugins-setting-up-testing-suite/
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notenoughneon.com edited /token-endpoint (+291) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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snarfed GWG: that whole series looks good. start with the first part if you haven't written unit tests before: https://pippinsplugins.com/unit-tests-wordpress-plugins-introduction/
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GWG Pippin knows his stuff
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GWG I use him as a reference all the time
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snarfed great!
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GWG Did you catch his talk at Loopconf on how to avoid breaking backward compatibility when changing your data structure?
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notenoughneon.com edited /Neonblog (-13) (view diff)
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snarfed GWG: no, sorry. i don't really follow wp
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snarfed or conferences
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GWG snarfed: Neither do I on conferences. But they put the videos up. I watched them while doing something else. At least the interesting ones
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GWG After I contributed to breaking acegiak's site, it was a topic I had strong feelings about.