#indiewebcamp 2015-07-23

2015-07-23 UTC
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KevinMarks nice aaron
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kongaloosh.com edited /Micropub (+211) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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kongaloosh.com edited /Micropub (+0) "/* Kongaloosh */" (view diff)
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Kongaloosh rhiaro: fixed and done; added myself to micropub.
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gRegorLove Why u-comment on /comments-presentation#How_to_markup instead of p-comment?
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aaronpk i'm glad you asked :)
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GWG u-comment now?
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GWG I can't keep up
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gRegorLove Looks like u-comment gives a fuller implied 'value' in the parser?
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gRegorLove Vs. just the comment plaintext as the 'value'
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aaronpk yes, it makes the "value" end up being the URL
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gRegorLove Hmm, not in php-mf2 (on https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/)
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aaronpk one step closer to having an always-useful "value" as a fallback when the consumer doesn't understand the object
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aaronpk it's only in the latest php-mf2
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aaronpk which reminds me i should update pin13.net
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gRegorLove I thought barnaby kept that up to date, but maybe he forgot
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aaronpk hm i should also add the php parser version number into the response just for kicks
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gRegorLove wikifies
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KartikPrabhu wait what! the value for a comment should be the URL?
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aaronpk yeah, imagine if you didn't do any fancy comment parsing, what would you display?
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aaronpk just the URL!
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KartikPrabhu native comments?
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aaronpk i mean webmention parsing
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aaronpk like if the source URL doesn't have any microformats, the best you can do is show the URL
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KartikPrabhu yeah so then should native comments have a p-comment and webmention ones u-comment?
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aaronpk maybe!
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gregorlove.com edited /comments-presentation (+336) "/* FAQ */ Why use u-comment instead of p-comment" (view diff)
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aaronpk i don't know, i don't really think about native comments much since I abandoned that years ago
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KartikPrabhu I have some old native comments from blogger
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aaronpk oy where's the list of online mf2 parsers?
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aaronpk only the two php ones are here http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#validators
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KartikPrabhu http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
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aaronpk oh i see, the libraries have links to the hosted versions if there is one
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aaronpk i wouldn't call pin13 a validator
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gRegorLove I plan to have local comments support for a while on my site, so yeah, I'll probably use p-comment h-cite for those.
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gRegorLove Sound right, aaronpk? https://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#Why_use_u-comment_instead_of_p-comment
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aaronpk sounds right
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KartikPrabhu is still confused. is the use-case "salmentions" ?
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GWG One of them, I imagine.
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aaronpk it's unfortunate we didn't get this into the parsers from the very beginning, but the idea is that the "value" property should always be a useful fallback if you don't understand what the object is
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KartikPrabhu what are the others if any?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "others if any" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=others+if+any&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437613128586
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aaronpk so for comments/salmention, if you don't go into the h-cite object and get the attributes from there, you could just use the "value" of the h-cite
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aaronpk which is now the URL if the object is "u-comment h-cite"
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: If you have a neested h-*, the parent h-* value should be the p-name of the child, for example
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KartikPrabhu if you are parsing a comment why not have the palin text as fall back?
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: yes. so if I have a nested h-cite the value will be whatever p-name it has
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gRegorLove Depending on the parser prefix. Only if you use p-
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gRegorLove http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##child%20element%20itself%20has%20a%20microformat
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KartikPrabhu yes. I still don't understand the use for having the URL as the "value"
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KartikPrabhu also there is no way to know if the value is actually a URL or just some text someone inserted
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gRegorLove For salmentions, makes it easier to find new comments without diving into the h-cite. I dunno, haven't implemented salmentions yet
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KartikPrabhu well at the moment no salmention implementation actually check the URL of the comment anyway
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aaronpk what do you mean?
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gRegorLove I thought the SWAT0 test people did
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aaronpk you have to check the URL of the comment in order to know if it's a new comment or not
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aaronpk so at the very least my implementation does
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu well I don't know, I'll stick to p-comment unless I find some reason to switch
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KartikPrabhu not sold on the fallback value being the URL
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gRegorLove It does seem pretty restrictive, if that's the only way to support salmentions.
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KartikPrabhu it is the only way if you don't want to go into the h-cite and find the URL
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gRegorLove Does your implementation dive into the h-cite if the value isn't a URL?
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aaronpk it's not the only way obviously
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gRegorLove Q for aaronpk ^
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aaronpk yeah i have to dive into the h-cite
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gRegorLove Ok
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gRegorLove Then I guess it's not restrictive, as long as implementations fallback to looking in the h-cite
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gRegorLove stops hypothesizing
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tantek gRegorLove: note that the u-comment explanation is *right there* below the how to mark up code sample under "What each of these do:"
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tantek first point: u-comment
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tantek and explicitly mentions salmention as well
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gRegorLove I saw it later. I would have expected it to be under the first bullet
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tantek but hey - if no one else here could find that then an extra FAQ works too
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tantek it is
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tantek "for comment discovery when reading an h-entry for salmention receiving. "
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tantek done
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gRegorLove That line isn't clear why u-comment instead of p-comment
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gRegorLove To me at least
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tantek yes it just says why u-comment
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gRegorLove What is comment discovery?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "comment discovery" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=comment+discovery&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437616131925
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tantek which is all you want for anyone coming to the page for the first time
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tantek which is most people
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tantek (future)
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tantek who don't really care about the history of how it got to be that way
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tantek (in fact, trying to incorporate such history inline typically leads to spec-bloat, and makes anything spec-like harder to read)
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gRegorLove I think most first-time readers will not be clear on "comment discovery" or "salmention"
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tantek they would be even *less clear* if they had to read a history
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gRegorLove "The u- prefix on the "comment" property works to get the u-url from inside the h-cite" under the second bullet is clearer
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gRegorLove But I would have expected it under the first bullet
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tantek nope - because the simpler case is just the u-comment
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tantek it's incremental disclosure of the information
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gRegorLove I'm not suggesting adding history, just explanation of "why u-comment"
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gRegorLove ::shrug::
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tantek it does say why u-comment. just doesn't say why u-comment vs. all other possibilities
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aaronpk frankly I don't find the explanation of "because comment discovery" compelling
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tantek also for a native comment - you probably want p-comment h-entry anyway
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aaronpk and I definitely do like having justifications for things when I'm reading these, otherwise I just think "eh that seems like extra work, why bother"
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gRegorLove Further confusing to people coming across a 'how to markup' section :)
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aaronpk i think we need a "how to mark up native comments" section too :)
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tantek it's not just "because comment discovery"
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tantek you're taking it out of context
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tantek of the phrase which is "for comment discovery when reading an h-entry for salmention receiving"
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aaronpk it still doesn't say *why* that is useful
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tantek obviously when you drop pieces of that, you create a strawman which you can then claim, eh, doesn't matter
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tantek yes, /salmention needs a Why section
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aaronpk ironically i'm pretty sure I was the one that pointed out it was better to use "u-comment", and now I don't even remember the actual reason other than it was related to salmention
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tantek because for salmentions you care about the URL of the comment being updated
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tantek or new
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kylewm i think u-like and u-repost were pretty much slam dunks, p-/u-comment is somewhat more debateable
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tantek kylewm - how is different? other than "native" comments
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tantek which you could argue based on some systems that their could be "native" likes too
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gRegorLove I like the idea of explicit how to markup sections for native/webmentions
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kylewm well you could argue whether the text or the url of the received comment is more representative
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tantek kylewm - it's more about which gives you a way to *get to* more representative, which the URL does
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@MicropubInfo MicroPub: Description: Publishes the current document to a Micropub endpoint using the current IndieAuth autho... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.editorial-workflows.com/workflow/5833229495959552/tO76Z7cIfTU&ct=ga&cd=CAIyHDNlNjg4ODQzODIxNzA0ZmU6Y28udWs6ZW46R0I&usg=AFQjCNH3O6UCN74J7qLyrH-B5cm3FBluBA&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/624035299354501120)
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tantek unless it's a "native" comment, in which case the comment is all there inline
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tantek what is MicropubInfo?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "MicropubInfo" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MicropubInfo&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437616607344
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk it's a bot that tweets search results for "micropub"
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aaronpk but not our kind of micropub
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tantek wat
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tantek aaronpk - you explained it yourself I thought above - for more easily getting the URL of the comment
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tantek whether or not there is an h-cite
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tantek but clearly yes based on the confusion it's worth documenting more as an FAQ
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aaronpk yes i think that is the actual reason.
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aaronpk but even still, the problem is if people don't do it consistently, I can't rely on the "value" being useful
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tantek and that's what we discussed and figured out that night in PDX
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tantek and why I updated it from p-comment to u-comment
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tantek other way around
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tantek if you rely on the value being useful
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tantek when it doesn't work for people, they'll fix their code
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tantek plus we can validate for it too
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aaronpk but I can't rely on the value being useful because it isn't always guaranteed to be a URL
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tantek (as in an addition for indiewebify.me - test your comments markup on your h-entry)
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tantek sure - we should diagram what happens with a "native" comment and salmentions - and what should happen
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kylewm well you're only falling back to "value" if you don't recognize the object you want anyway
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tantek kylewm - or you don't even bother looking for the object
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aaronpk the problem is more apparent when you consider that the "comment" property of the h-entry may be both a native comment or a webmention comment
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tantek that's the point - to not have to care about the nested object if you don't need those details
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aaronpk if we can make the h-entry spec say that the value of the "comment" properties must always be a URL, then as a consumer I can always expect a URL as the value, whether there's an h-cite, h-entry or it's just a URL
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aaronpk for native comments, the URL of the comment might be a fragment ID which is fine
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aaronpk then h-cite becomes a way to augment the "comment" value with additional data beyond the comment's URL
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aaronpk that's how I imagine effectively using the "value" fallback
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aaronpk does that make sense? I can try to re-word if necessary
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kylewm that does make sense
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kylewm if you can't depend on h-cite value being a url, then it doesn't help you that it's sometimes a url
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kylewm if you can't depend on h-cite value always being a url, then it doesn't help you that it's sometimes a url
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aaronpk right. and if the spec requires that the value is a URL, then if it's not a URL I can assume it's an error
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tantek except putting the burden on a publisher is misleading
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tantek because you can't actually depend on it
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tantek so making it a must only deceives consuming code into a bad assumption
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aaronpk you can't depend on anything
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tantek right - however, that didn't stop people from misimplementing Atom
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aaronpk but you can say "it's only useful when _____"
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tantek because feed readers assumed hey if the spec it must be x
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tantek then I'll write my code that way
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tantek that's literally how people write consuming code in practice
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aaronpk you can never trust external data. that's not the point
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tantek that's not the point, the point is coders don't act that way
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aaronpk in this case we're talking about literally a one-character difference so i dont think it's really a burden
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tantek regardless of any guidance, we have to say what the consuming code should do in either case
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aaronpk the burden is whether the publisher marks up the h-cite or not
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tantek anything you ask the publisher to do that isn't immediately obvious adds burden
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tantek as you or others said above about not bothering
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aaronpk the easy thing for the publisher is to *only* mark up the URL of the comment with "u-comment"
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tantek right
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aaronpk the harder thing to do is to make it an h-cite
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tantek that's a good starting point
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aaronpk so i'm saying if you're going to make it an h-cite, then you should use "u-comment h-cite"
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aaronpk and as a consumer, if you encounter a value of an h-cite that is not a URL, then don't use it
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tantek I suppose the question is, what's the benefit of the additional h-cite markup
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tantek ?
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tantek (for both publishers and consumers0
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tantek 0
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tantek )
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aaronpk the benefit to the consumer is they can use the values of the comment text and author h-card without fetching the external comment
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tantek btw re: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos fragments - perhaps we should do two pages for before/after demos?
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tantek or I've cheated in the past by using first / short names in one list, then full names in another
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aaronpk mediawiki already handled it by adding _2 to the second list of names
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tantek also I think all the Brighton pages got put under /2015/Brighton/
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aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos#Tantek_2
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tantek wat whoa haven't seen that before
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aaronpk but i'm not opposed to splitting it into two pages
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tantek It would probably be a more robust pattern for future camps that copy/paste the Schedule page with links to the usual sessions
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tantek maybe Intro Demos vs Hack Demos ?
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aaronpk sure
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aaronpk or did we decide to not call it "hack" anymore?
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tantek no we'll just expand on what hack means
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tantek I mean heck, Science Hack Day is similar in that respect
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tantek most of what people do and demo there has nothing to do with coding
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tantek renaming something to something more obscure/general is usually a really bad way to solve a meaning / communication problem
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tantek that's how you end up with crappy abstractions like "Actor" because hey "author" seems grammatically awkward in some cases
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tantek better to use a reasonably accurate existing term that people understand than a more precise term that you have to explain
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aaronpk i thought we had said "creator" or something
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tantek no that was the earlier change from Builder to Creator
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GWG I'm trying to decide if I am going to be up in time for IWC Edinburgh.
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tantek which we still have
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tantek but hack has always been hack
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aaronpk k
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KevinMarks so it seems we are hitting the 'mf2 consumers need to sniff for type' issue a fair bit
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tantek we are?
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KevinMarks per that comment discussion above, and previous issues with cards
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tantek what sniffing did cards need?
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tantek is this the same kind of conflation that people do when they say scrape when they mean parse
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tantek that is, there should be no reason to sniff anything with cards
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KevinMarks the url/text dichotomy on a property,
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tantek you're always just grabbing the first h-*
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KevinMarks the html/text dichotomy
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tantek no those are in separate properties
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KevinMarks and the text/embedded object's name
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tantek and it's pretty big leap from url/text to "sniff for type"
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KevinMarks OK, it is a mix of conditional code and the url/text sniff
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aaronpk if by "sniff for type" you mean "sanitize" then sure
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aaronpk sanitize/validate
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tantek conditional code is hardly sniffing
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tantek neither is sanitizing/validating
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tantek so yeah, this is like people saying "scrape" when they're actually talking about parsing
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KevinMarks so http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks the note there is text
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KevinMarks (in the h-card)
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io&html=&pretty=on
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tantek forgets how long unmung takes on his home page ;)
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KevinMarks I should make it cache globally with etag/last modified
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Loqi I agree
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KevinMarks with bent he note is an html/value pair 'cos he used e-
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aaronpk tantek: this is actually why I want the "h-entry" vocab to say that the "comment" property is a URL
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tantek but of course we can assert no such thing
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Loqi gives aaronpk the "h
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aaronpk because if consumers are expected to actually use both URL and non-URL values, then you *do* have to sniff for type
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tantek we can merely suggest best practices
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aaronpk I would rather tell consumers to ignore non-URL values rather than use them
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aaronpk which is validating
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tantek we could say that true
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KevinMarks if it can be url, text or html, then you have to write more convoluted code
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aaronpk there's a big difference
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tantek KevinMarks, as noted, it's not expected to be text or html
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tantek those are already provided in separate fields - please stop conflating
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tantek and just because you have conditional code does not mean you are "sniffing"
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tantek (e.g. checking for 'value' first before array index)
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnote%2F2015%2F7%2F20%2F6%2F&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks comment there is an h-cite
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KevinMarks not a url
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KevinMarks so you have to check if it is a dictionary first
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aaronpk KevinMarks: this is what i'm saying
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KevinMarks then see if it has a url
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aaronpk there is a standard code path of "if object, use value. if string, use it directly"
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KevinMarks in its properties
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tantek KevinMarks, that's just transitional because we're switching from p-comment h-cite to u-comment h-cite. sheesh
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KevinMarks well, if array of string
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aaronpk you can avoid needing to look at the "url" property of the h-cite if the value of the h-cite *is* that url
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aaronpk so the standard code path never needs to know about data types of teh object
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aaronpk if value is always representative
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tantek right
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tantek aaronpk - I think we should design consuming algorithms that way
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aaronpk i agree
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tantek and just make them defensive about other possibilities
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tantek rather than try to "handle" them
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aaronpk that's a good way of putting it
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aaronpk that's what i've been trying to describe
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tantek the quicker people can check to see if their code is "correct" the better
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KevinMarks so that is consuming algorithms rather than parsers
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aaronpk KevinMarks: yes
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KevinMarks OK
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KevinMarks hence the utils suggestion
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KevinMarks (from earlier)
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aaronpk right
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KevinMarks given a mf2-parsed output of a page, extract certain kinds of indie-useful structure
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aaronpk one could write a generic "get_value" function which is basically: if(is_string(property)) return property; elseif(is_object(property)) return property.value
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KevinMarks so do we define those as a json->json mapping
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KevinMarks or a json->html mapping (for injecting into the page)
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KevinMarks if we want them to be testably consistent across languages, I mean
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aaronpk json->json maybe, like defining a super simple JSON structure that corresponds to a "comment"
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aaronpk then writing a funciton that turns one element of an h-entry's "comment" properties into that structure
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KevinMarks and then the 'how to markup' part mappingback into html is a template of choice issue
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KevinMarks the salmention issue makes this concrete as it does assume some kind of html->json->html->json->html cycle
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aaronpk yes. well, html->parsed->html->parsed->html. JSON is not actually part of the picture
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aaronpk nowhere in my code does the HTML page actually get transformed to JSON, it gets parsed from HTML to native data structures
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KevinMarks OK, I'm using JSON as a shorthand for 'dynamic language structure'
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KevinMarks which I suppose is python/javascript bias
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aaronpk yea, just wanted to be explicit for the logs ;)
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KevinMarks as PHP they're a bit different
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KevinMarks in that telling an array from a dict is more nuanced
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KevinMarks hm if frontendy are self-dogfooding why writ on medium? https://medium.com/@frontendy/be-the-early-adopters-of-your-product-d6888305ca6c
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@kevinmarks so @frontendy, if you're slef-dogfooding your web-building product, why are you writing on medium and not your own site? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/624056657329307648)
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aaronpk #irony
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aaronpk wow they even say "dogfooding"
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aaronpk omg the website field of their twitter account is their medium profile
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KevinMarks and the 'learn more' link on their website is also their medium profile
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aaronpk sigh
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@AlexKKearney Patched together reply-to and micropub today. All in all, I guess that's productive. #indieweb http://kongaloosh.com/e/2015/7/23/patched-to (twitter.com/_/status/624078669103898624)
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KartikPrabhu today in not self-dogfooding, Facebook Design stories on Medium: https://medium.com/facebook-design
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@ricksmithbooks Learn how to publish your PAPERBACK with CreateSpace on Amazon. #selfpub #IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RPP01H0/ref=cm_sw_su_dp (twitter.com/_/status/624082861243670528)
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@kartik_prabhu @RudigerMeyer I haven’t figured out how to do automatic webmentions yet either. (twitter.com/_/status/624084009971126272)
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/624096161339576320
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@Pinboard Someday we’ll look back on this weird fad of publishing on Medium, and none of the pages will render (twitter.com/_/status/624096161339576320)
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@kevinmarks https://www.youtube.com/ I love that @aaronpk got to use his own music to dramatise this SWAT0 demo #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/624105181706235904)
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mapkyca (very) minor point re: https://indiewebcamp.com/IRC as I'm looking at it right now.. Port is listed as 6667 on the set up details. Any reason we don't point folk towards 6697, which is the TLS endpoint?
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voxpelli Do any Microformats parser parse any language properties?
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voxpelli Thinking I want to be able to post both English and Swedish stuff over Micropub so would want to use the same format
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marcus-povey.co.uk created /User:Marcus-povey.co.uk (+213) "Created page with "=<span class="h-card">[https://marcus-povey.co.uk Marcus Povey ]</span>= Uses: [[Wordpress]], [[Known]] and various other things. See also: [https://mapkyca.com mapkyca.com], ..."" (view diff)
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joskar voxpelli: The parser I wrote last year parses language properties. (not open source though, and is undergoing a rewrite at the moment)
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joskar voxpelli: (I've tried doing some multilingual stuff on my web page)
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voxpelli joskar: my blog has a somewhat weird attempt at having Swedish content within an otherwise English site – valid HTML, but probably a bit hard for a consumer to understand
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voxpelli joskar: was thinking about parsers that comply with the expected output of https://github.com/glennjones/tests
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joskar Haven't seen those before, but mine being written last year I don't think it would comply with that anyway (and the language properties doesn't even translate to something remotely JSON...)
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joskar That page will be good when I'm rewriting my parser though, thanks :)
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voxpelli I think the Node.ja, Python and PHP parsers all produce the output there – and Micropub consumes data in a similar format
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voxpelli s/Node.ja/Node.js/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: I think the Node.js, Python and PHP parsers all produce the output there – and Micropub consumes data in a similar format
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joskar Is there a way to express language properties of the strings in JSON?
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voxpelli joskar: the language probably has to be expressed as a property of the parsed h-*
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joskar voxpelli: So, a simple "lang": as a sibling for the "type": would be enough then if a lang= attribute was found on the h-* tag? (or possibly on the *-content tag)
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voxpelli joskar: either that or having it as a key in the "properties", my initial thought was the latter
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@ricksmithbooks Publish your printed book on Amazon with this step-by-step guide. #selfpub #IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RPP01H0/ref=cm_sw_su_dp (twitter.com/_/status/624158435504979968)
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joskar voxpelli: Wouldn't that clash with a hypothetical "*-lang" class name? Is that desirable?
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voxpelli joskar: would merely be an implied value in case one explicitly haven't set up a "*-lang" I'm thinking
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joskar If a *-lang class name would denote "languages spoken" for instance, then I think no. But I haven't seen such a class, so I don't know.
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voxpelli joskar: so another case of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties I'm thinking
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@m4rch RT @t: 5y+1d ago was the 1st Federated Social Web Summit #FSWS2010, a key inspiration for @IndieWebCamp. @evanpro ... http://tantek.com/2015/200/t1/fsws2010-inspiration-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/624161656843730948)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+11) "/* Schedule */" (view diff)
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rhiaro voxpelli: Do you mean you want to submit the same post in two different languages in, in one micropub request?
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acegiak can anyone see acegiak.net? online dns tools say they're getting the right IP but my machine is timing out
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acegiak I've moved the machine to a new physical location with a new IP so I've updated the dns records but it's being weird
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rhiaro acegiak: I get not available - address unreachable
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acegiak rhiaro: what IP is it hitting?
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petermolnar acegiak I can see it, but it's _very_ slow
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rhiaro how do I find that out..?
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acegiak petermolnar: weeeird. I wonder what is cauing that
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rhiaro 203.122.217.74
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Loqi !dns 203.122.217.74
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Loqi ppp203-122-217-74.static.internode.on.net
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rhiaro oh what's that loqi?
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acegiak rhiaro: ok the ip change hasn't propagated to you yet
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rhiaro oh, right
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acegiak trys to work out why it's being slow
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petermolnar po2.lns20.adl6.on.ii.net (150.101.225.27) hangs for traceroute from Germany; work from UK
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petermolnar last hop before your host
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acegiak petermolnar: is it maybe just a case of waiting for propagation then?
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acegiak has her own bind9 server but is actually way over her head
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petermolnar I'm not a domain wizard myself either
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petermolnar by the way, digitalocean offers free dns hosting
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petermolnar and a pretty interface
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petermolnar so I'm ok using that, because messing up dns is an ugly knot to untie
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acegiak yeah
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voxpelli rhiaro: nope, just that I want to indicate the language that the post is in – that's something I do for my non-micropub posts
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rhiaro voxpelli: aha, okay, makes sense
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rhiaro So you don't do translations of posts?
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voxpelli rhiaro: nope, not much reason to – if it's a post of general interest I write it in english as all swedes know english
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rhiaro Interesting
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voxpelli but I guess the nordic countries are a bit odd that way, totally different with posts in eg. German
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@mackie_roy @affordanceinfo Est-ce que vous connaissez l'indieweb, et qu'est-ce que vous en pensez, par rapport á la vision du web qu'il envisionne ? (twitter.com/_/status/624176158049988608)
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@IndieWebCampUK Breakfast ordered for IWC Edi from @SnaxEdinburgh.. If that's not a good reason to come along I don't know what is http://indieWebCamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (twitter.com/_/status/624179335549857792)
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@rhiaro RT @IndieWebCampUK: Breakfast ordered for IWC Edi from @SnaxEdinburgh.. If that's not a good reason to come along I don't know what is http… (twitter.com/_/status/624180015429607424)
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voxpelli !tell glennjones Perhaps you have some input on this mf2-parsing issue as well? https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@voxpelli Want the text representation of an HTML-tag? It can be hard: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69#issuecomment-124063976 Based on thoughts by @kangax: http:///the-poor-misunderstood-innerText/ (twitter.com/_/status/624183594274177024)
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glennjones voxpelli yes parsing text from html is not straight forward that’s why I use my own lib https://github.com/glennjones/microformat-shiv/blob/dev/lib/text.js it’s a simple none-CSS aware version of innerText
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Loqi glennjones: voxpelli left you a message 28 minutes ago: Perhaps you have some input on this mf2-parsing issue as well? https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-23/line/1437651286088
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glennjones voxpelli By default my parser provides text as trimmed textContent as per spec, but there is a switch to collapse whitespace where the output is much more usable http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/ which I always use when consuming microformats
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voxpelli glennjones: does it also expand whitespace for eg. <br>?
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voxpelli glennjones: I see, it does it for block level tags but not for br I think – anyway – would be great to spec that functionality out as something standard-like
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voxpelli should preferably be the standard way to parse microformats
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glennjones The problem with innerText is, its not standard - wrote about it here http://codebits.glennjones.net/textextraction/innertext.html and its hard to do if you take into account CSS properties such as display and white-space
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glennjones That said my ‘collapse whitespace’ approach could be codified its weather other would agree to add something like this to spec, so far not http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues#When_to_collapse_whitespace_in_properties
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voxpelli glennjones: I think it could make sense independent of the microformat spec – all parsers that wants to extract text out of plain HTML needs to do somehting like that
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voxpelli at least whitespace should be expanded
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acegiak is acegiak.net working properly for people now?
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voxpelli glennjones: can you add your point of view with that Microformat discussion to https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69 ?
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voxpelli acegiak: nope
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acegiak hmmm
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glennjones Yes will do, once I have finished the work I am currently doing on the parser for Mozilla, I will try and have a look at formalising and document this way of handling text
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GWG Good morning, all
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GWG pfefferle: New site?
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pfefferle GWG ???
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GWG pfefferle.org
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pfefferle GWG not really, pfefferle.org is way older… I tested the IndieAuth-OpenID script of cweiske…
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GWG pfefferle: I'm fixing the errors thrown by my new WordPress coding standards test suite.
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GWG Deep in Camel Case violations
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pfefferle GWG camel case doesn’t matter for the wordpress coding standard… are you usinf PSR?
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GWG https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/best-practices/coding-standards/php/#naming-conventions
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pfefferle GWG ah ok, then I used it intentionally ;)
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GWG I also don't have whitespace in the right places
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GWG 163 violations in Post Kinds alone
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pfefferle GWG :)
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pfefferle GWG your classic indents problem ;)
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GWG Error #17 of 163
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GWG snarfed suggested unit testing. The same test suite had the WordPress Coding Standards. I figured I'd test for everything.
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notizblog.org edited /code-of-conduct (+42) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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pfefferle GWG I think it is easier to use a standard you can check against
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pfefferle for non-wordpress code I prefer PSR-*
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pfefferle GWG https://github.com/bpearson/vim-phpcs
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GWG pfefferle: I also would like to put some functionality in as I fix coding standards
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@ChrisAldrich Finished updating @WithKnown to version 0.8.2. #IndieWeb #FTW (twitter.com/_/status/624224900459311104)
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jonnybarnes I let my text editor lint my code as I type
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snarfed style++
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Loqi style has 2 karma
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snarfed …but having said that, GWG, if you're taking votes, i vote to prioritize tests over style :P
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snarfed way bigger impact
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jonnybarnes supercalifragilisticexpialidocious++
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Loqi supercalifragilisticexpialidocious has 1 karma
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jonnybarnes you can literlly upvote anything?
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snarfed anything++
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Loqi anything has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme well not anythinthing with a space
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ben_thatmustbeme or punctuation
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ben_thatmustbeme can't++
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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jonnybarnes shakes head in disappointment
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csarven Are the IWC kids using XFN these days or is it declared dead?
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csarven is considering to chuck it out of the window from his comments and contact page...
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kylewm.com edited /2014/NYC (-24) "remove category:Guest_List" (view diff)
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csarven ?++
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csarven +++
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csarven *++
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csarven \++
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csarven \+++
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csarven \\+++
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csarven GWG for some reason, I equate your nick to OMG in my head
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jonnybarnes any css whizzes in here? how can I apply a rule to classA only when it follows classB?
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ben_thatmustbeme c++++
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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Loqi c has 50 karma
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csarven Follows as in first child?
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csarven or sibling?
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ben_thatmustbeme jonnybarnes: example html?
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csarven foo bar { } (where bar is a descendant of foo), foo > bar { bar is first child of foo), foo + bar (bar is a sibling of foo, where they have the same parent)
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jonnybarnes csarven, the + rule is what I wanted, thanks
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csarven jonnybarnes++
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Loqi jonnybarnes has 9 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme ah yes
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven++
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Loqi csarven has 13 karma
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jonnybarnes does this look like I’m replying to the tweet in question? https://i.imgur.com/ezFKcEV.png
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csarven Yes, but it can be better e.g., if the object in question to which replying to is given more context (e.g., prominent size, location in contrast to everything else). So, one way to do that may be to simply keep the width of the replied space less than or equal to the width of the object's width it is replying to
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csarven aka "thread" look
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csarven Ok, I'm dropping XFN from the comments.
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voxpelli csarven: I would say XFN is still alive
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chreekat.net edited /2015/Demos (+185) "/* Bryan */ add example" (view diff)
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kylewm I'm curious if y'all got notifications for being added to https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/lists/indiewebcamp/members
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kylewm I tried gregorLove's trick of adding everyone while private then switching to public
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aaronpk i haven't been on twitter since then lol
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rhiaro kylewm: I didn't
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rhiaro Oh no wait
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rhiaro I did
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rhiaro 4 minutes ago
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aaronpk yep i see it in my notificfations on twitter now
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kylewm doh
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kylewm so that's a list of everyone i could find from Category:Guest_List and irc-people
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csarven is successfully outside of kylewm's list even though he is listed in /irc-people
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@markwunsch Inspired by @t and @adactio and the #indieweb movement, I set myself up a little POSSE system w/ Jekyll and Tumblr http://blog.markwunsch.com/post/124842033165/tumblelog-posse#_=_ (twitter.com/_/status/624246276050321408)
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voxpelli kylewm: did you use relspider for that?
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@markwunsch RT @t: #IndieWebCamp 2014 Year in Review — This Is A Movement: http://tantek.com/2015/201/b1/indiewebcamp-2014-year-review (twitter.com/_/status/624246865899483137)
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@jordan_web IndieWeb is gaining favour https://twitter.com/markwunsch/status/624246276050321408 (twitter.com/_/status/624247025136078848)
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KevinMarks voxpelli: the rel parsing looks for lang now
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KevinMarks but we don't parse lang attributes elsewhere
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KevinMarks if you have examples in the wild we can look into ti
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KevinMarks I mentioned climbtothestars.org before as an example
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voxpelli KevinMarks: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/blob/master/_layouts/post.html#L7 – I put lang="se" on my h-entries when they are in swedish
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voxpelli the rest of the site is always in english – navigation and such
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KevinMarks Steph posts inboth french and English, and puts summaries in the other language on each post, and marks them up with lang
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aaronpk checks if silo.pub supports flickr
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KevinMarks she made a WP plugin for this
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aaronpk files a feature request on silo.pub :)
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KevinMarks http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2013/09/17/basic-bilingual-1-0-plugin-for-wordpress-blog-in-more-than-one-language/
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KevinMarks which alos points to https://wpml.org/ for more complex langauge
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snarfed (aaronpk's next step may be to upvote https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/225)
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KevinMarks s/langauge/multilingual markup
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: which alos points to https://wpml.org/ for more complex multilingual markup
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voxpelli_ KevinMarks: I have it covered on the backend side, what I want to do is to be able to specify the language in the Micropub request
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KevinMarks ah, interesting, I thought you wanted to parse it as mf2
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voxpelli_ And since Micropub maps to the parsed result of Microformat it feels like it should be there as well
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voxpelli_ (I guess h-feed clients of non-swedish readers would prefer to be able to filter by language as well)
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aaronpk voxpelli_: what does your markup look like right now? do you have an example?
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aaronpk snarfed: hmm yes although not the priority in my case
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voxpelli_ aaronpk: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/blob/master/_layouts/post.html#L7 is the template
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aaronpk my use case is uploading my camera photos to flickr with the new wifi card since eye-fi is shutting it down
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voxpelli_ aaronpk: http://voxpelli.com/2011/03/sista-dagen-p-good-old/ is an actual post using that template
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petermolnar hm... I didn't really thing it trough that importing all my last.fm scrobbler may stress my database a bit
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petermolnar s/thing/think
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: hm... I didn't really think it trough that importing all my last.fm scrobbler may stress my database a bit
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voxpelli aaronpk: KevinMarks: would just using a new "lang" property (for micropub) and eventually getting parsers to set it to the implied value of the html lang attribute be a good solution?
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aaronpk i would want to see what the parsed microformats version looks like before adding a micropub property
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KevinMarks the trickiness is that lang could apply to an individual property rather than a whole h- object
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aaronpk you know how when there's e-content, the value ends up turning into an object? maybe the same could be true for lang
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voxpelli aaronpk: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://voxpelli.com/2011/03/sista-dagen-p-good-old/
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aaronpk so if you had <p class="p-name" lang="fr">foo</p> the result would be "name":{"value":"foo","lang":"fr"}
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voxpelli KevinMarks: I wonder though if it would make sense very often to have multiple languages within the same h- object?
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KevinMarks if steph was using mf2, how would her <div class="entry-content"><div class="other-excerpt lang="fr"> <div lang="en"> change
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voxpelli right, but adding language to eg. p-name's is would be hard?
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KevinMarks that's a clear use case - alternate language summary
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voxpelli so language on h- object level + e-content level perhaps?
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aaronpk if you want to attach a lang to the whole h-object then it could be parsed as an additional key alongside "type" and "properties"
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KevinMarks right, at h- level it is easier
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KevinMarks <div class="e-content"><div class="e-other-excerpt lang="fr"> <div lang="en"> is still tricky
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voxpelli KevinMarks: aaronpk: something like this perhaps? https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/cd56cbcf6db878aa56f0
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aaronpk yeah that seems reasonable
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voxpelli now – how would one support that in a micropub context :P
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KevinMarks well, you'd want a value: on the content entries as well
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/425916611c8e59ab71b2
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aaronpk i also took out lang on the swedish content because it would be assumed from the enclosing h-entry
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voxpelli right, accidentally removed too much
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voxpelli true, +1 on that
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voxpelli how would one go about actually getting this into parsers?
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voxpelli get it into http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing, then into test suite, then into parsers?
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KevinMarks write it up on http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming
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KevinMarks (the above discussion)
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KevinMarks then add an issue to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues
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voxpelli ok, I'll do that then
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aaronpk yeah cool
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KevinMarks then modify a parser to demonstrate it, then we can iterate in other implementations
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KevinMarks and then get it into the master parsing spec
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aaronpk be sure to include links to your posts that are in different languages
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KevinMarks yes, and other examples like Steph's
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voxpelli will do
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aaronpk i actually have a couple posts in german you could include too :)
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aaronpk if only i had marked them up so i had an easy way to find them ;)
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KevinMarks another case I'd expect to see would be cite's or quotations in another language
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KevinMarks eg if I marked up the french quote in this: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2002/08/untranslatable.html
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KevinMarks or this one: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/10/losing-language-sales.html
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voxpelli I guess it would be hard to add to anything but h-* and e-* content so unless those are marked up as e-* it will be hard :P
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KevinMarks (I'm very imperfectly multilingual)
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KevinMarks that's a reasonable compromise though - adding it to every possible p- is tricky
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aaronpk voxpelli: i was thinking the parser would expand a p-* element to {"value":"foo","lang":"en"} anuyway
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KevinMarks whereas e- already implies structure
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voxpelli Quotes would make sense to add as e-* as well – if one wants to emphasize something within it or such
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aaronpk consumers are supposed to be able to treat the "value" attribute of an object as if it were not an object
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voxpelli aaronpk: that would be a rather breaking change though :/
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aaronpk yeah, but would also encourage better handling of values
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aaronpk less special-casing based on property names
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voxpelli I'll write up an initial brainstorm entry after dinner and try to include as much as possible of the discussions here
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aaronpk i just found a few of my german posts so i can add them to the wiki after you do the first pass
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snarfed hey aaronpk, any idea if 2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:e59f is you?
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aaronpk uh
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aaronpk no idea. i haven't done any ipv6 stuff yet
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snarfed maybe your hosting provider
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snarfed it's currently sending bridgy ~1qps of GET https://www.brid.gy/like/instagram/indiewebcat/1021905552791263511_1549572005/514047573
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snarfed totally fine, just funny
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aaronpk repeatedly?
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snarfed yup ~1qps
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aaronpk oh hey yes it is! I didn't even know my newest server had ipv6
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snarfed lol
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snarfed i guess technically it may be indiewebcat's, not yours
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aaronpk i wonder what is doing that
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aaronpk huh something is doing a HEAD request on one of my URLs at that same rate
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aaronpk ohhh it's a beanstalk job that crashes and restarts
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aaronpk oops
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aaronpk fixed
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 120 karma
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jonnybarnes looking at https://github.com/indieweb/newBase60py/blob/master/newbase60.py, and that looks much nicer than my PHP code
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KevinMarks Python encourages you to use dictionaries like that
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KevinMarks you could write ane xact equivalent of http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402946/NewBase60#CassisV0code in python
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KevinMarks I think the dict-based way is faster though.
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voxpelli aaronpk: KevinMarks: added: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=65138&oldid=65065&rcid=101519
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KevinMarks coudl probably make it a tiny bit quicker by making numtosxg put the chars in an array and join at the end
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aaronpk awesome
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voxpelli should I add it to the issue page as well? otherwise I'm going to make a reference-PR for the node parser now I think
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KevinMarks voxpelli: could you make the example have actual swedish and english in instead of gibberish
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voxpelli KevinMarks: sure, I'll fix it
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KevinMarks also, the name is in english, but marked as swedish implicitly
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KevinMarks similarly, having some html in the e- bits that is stripped in the value is also clearer
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KevinMarks (we know that's how it works, but it's good to make each example clear as a standalone)
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voxpelli KevinMarks: All fixed :)
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KevinMarks nice
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KevinMarks voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 34 karma
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Loqi slack/tantek: The Lang stuff is interesting. Note that we ran into obstacles when we tried similar approaches with capturing the shape and cords attributes from area into the parsed mf2 JSON.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Limiting Lang to h- and e- is an interesting approach. Not sure of such a limitation is reasonable though eg for plain text notes in other languages.
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aaronpk i am not a fan of limiting to h- and e-, im going to add some more notes to the brainstorming page
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bear this line https://github.com/indieweb/newBase60py/blob/master/newbase60.py#L20 would be more efficient as s = []; s.append(c); ''.join(s[::-1]
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Loqi slack/tantek: Point being, is this approach limited to lang or can we use it for other attributes too?
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aaronpk i also think that if suddenly any property can be a string or an object ({"lang":"en","value":"foo"}) then consuming code will end up being more robust and vocab-agnostic
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Loqi slack/tantek: Interesting.
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aaronpk encouraging consuming code to take advantage of the "value" property more often
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Loqi slack/tantek: Note the inconsistency now between rel 'text' and p- 'value'
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Loqi slack/tantek: Maybe that's ok?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Yes because rel 'value' as the text inside the a element would be very confusing. (Rel values mean the things in the rel attribute.)
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Loqi slack/tantek: And p- 'text' could also be u- 'text' which is confusing because the u- is more likely to be a URL rather than just the "text".
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Loqi slack/tantek: Tose are my reasons for being ok with the apparent inconsistency. Each works better in its context.
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aaronpk agreed
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GWG snarfed: I am not in a hurry.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Just wanted to raise that before anyone else did and think/work it through. Not sure if it needs an FAQ or some other note on the wiki.
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aaronpk probably worth documenting
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GWG snarfed:The testing files I added included built in WordPress checking. So I want to clear those errors as I proceed.
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jonnybarnes thanks KevinMarks, looks much better than it did before: https://github.com/jonnybarnes/indieweb/blob/master/src/Numbers.php
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aaronpk i just copied tantek's JS and translated it to php. not super pretty, but very small https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/90b65905b44393c2c0a0
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Loqi slack/tantek: Wait what. Cassis.js already has the newbase60 funcs
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aaronpk oh yeah i think that's probably where i got them from then. can't remember if i had to make any changes to have it work outside of cassis
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Loqi slack/tantek: Oh yeah you prob replaced the strcat with .
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aaronpk yeah that sounds irght
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Loqi slack/tantek: But I think that's it. :P
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jonnybarnes aaronpk, what's the error checking your comment mentions?
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jonnybarnes do you mean correcting O to 0 etc.?
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli added a PR for experimental parsing of languages to the microformat-node project now + documented it at the wiki so I think I've done what I can about that issue for now – guess I'll wait for feedback from aaronpk and others now :)
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Loqi slack/tantek: Also cassis num_to_sxg handles negative numbers.
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aaronpk huh mine is ever so slightly different
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aaronpk tantek: did you change your functions in the past 3-4 years or so?
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Loqi slack/tantek: And sxg_to_num handles bothe negative numbers and apparent end of number in the string (a bit more robust).
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Loqi slack/tantek: I think you may have forked from the newbase60 wiki page which is way out of date!
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Loqi slack/tantek: Really should use or fork from cassis.js
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aaronpk oh! that is quite likely
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aaronpk you should update the wiki ;)
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Loqi +1
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Loqi slack/tantek: Only cassis.js func dependencies are strcat, strlen, and substr.
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aaronpk yep I have the wiki version
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Loqi slack/tantek: I keep typing <http://tantek.com/github|tantek.com/github> instead of <http://github.com/tantek|github.com/tantek>. #indiewebproblems.
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aaronpk sounds like a good redirect to set up :)
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Loqi slack/tantek: And maybe a future home for PESOS github?
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Loqi slack/tantek: As a stepping stone towards POSSE to github?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Does Bridgy Publish support POSSE to github? Eg note-&gt;gist, reply to github issue -&gt; comment on github issue
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snarfed tantek: sorry, no, no github support yet, but i wish it did!
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aaronpk that'd be great haha
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Loqi rofl
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/333
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Loqi slack/tantek: keeps stepping deeper into a rabbithole.
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Loqi slack/tantek: Does Bridgy Publish run somehwhere that allows SMTP outbound? Eg so it could POSSE to email?
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snarfed yeah, sorry, that's not going to happen
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snarfed emaildeliverability--
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Loqi emaildeliverability has -2 karma
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aaronpk you can farm out to amazon SES to avoid most of the issues
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snarfed i do love http://bcc.npdoty.name/ though
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snarfed oh actually good point, google has the same service
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snarfed so i wouldn't need to do any email deliverability work
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snarfed bridgy email feature request: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/257
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kylewm my 2p, I don't think Bridgy should necessarily be the first to implement some of these publish features
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snarfed good point kylewm
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kylewm it'd be nice if some people prototyped them on their own implemetnations first
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aaronpk haha
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kylewm although I guess Known has a Github plugin
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aaronpk considers making a similar "publish" service for p3k
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GWG snarfed: I hope my nonsensical response made sense. I need to do to learn
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snarfed snarfed: sure! made sense. i still say ignore the style warnings and just get unit tests working, but up to you!
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GWG snarfed: I am learning init tests on my plugins before subjecting you to them.
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GWG Because I'm bound to make annoying mistakes on the way.
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@LukasRosenstock ICYMI - The "Domain of One’s Own initiative" is a good application of #IndieWeb principles in #education: https://medium.com/bright/the-web-we-need-to-give-students-311d97713713?utm_content=buffer9df2d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/624293245607129089)
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GWG By the way, how do you ignore 168 warnings?
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snarfed got me. tool/lang specific
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GWG snarfed: Rhetorical question
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GWG I have already started having ideas on Micropub unit testing without http and that would require a rewrite.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: GWG: really? weren't we going to just call Micropub::parse_request() from the test directly?
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+676) "/* POSSE to GitHub */ note variants, note->gist, reply-> repo or issue" (view diff)
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aaronpk was searching for a name for p3k's potential POSSE service, thought of "movable type" and then *headdesk*
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snarfed lol
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aaronpk hmm maybe "Gazette"
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KartikPrabhu "Mercury" Roman messenger God
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aaronpk too old
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aaronpk "Gazette" would be a better name for an aggregator
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aaronpk files that away
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kylewm i'm thinking the in the area of "broadcast"
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KartikPrabhu "transmit"
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+654) "backfeed, how, status of Bridgy support / link to issue" (view diff)
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kylewm how about "murrow" :)
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gRegorLove Transmat
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aaronpk telegraph?
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gRegorLove is behind, "p3k POSSE service?"
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aaronpk yeah i'm thinking about making a POSSE service like Bridgy Publish
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kylewm telegraph is cool
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Loqi slack/tantek: Yes just thought telegraph myself and looked it up on Wikipedia.
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kylewm not that much more current than Mercury tbh
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aaronpk mostly because I want GitHub and Flickr support, but I probably have a better chance of that happening if I build it myself :)
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kylewm but it fits in nicely with switchboard
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gRegorLove Just for p3k, or a public service?
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aaronpk it'd be public like Quill is
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gRegorLove Sweet.
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Loqi slack/tantek: keeps crawling back out of the rabbithole.
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gRegorLove I was just thinking yesterday Flickr POSSE would be cool
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aaronpk my general rule of thumb is I make these things public if I'm not storing any actual data on them
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aaronpk the cost to run them is low if I'm not expected to store things
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snarfed hmm, how can we convince aaronpk to get into python more and contribute to bridgy… :P
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aaronpk python hurts my eyes
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kylewm I still want to add backfeed for Flickr to Bridgy... very slowly working on it a little at a time
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snarfed kylewm: oh? that's your recent flickr work?
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kylewm yeah, just testing the waters really... starting to implement get_activities_response
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Loqi slack/tantek: stumbles into another rabbithole.
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kylewm wonders what tantek is doing
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aaronpk looks for some rabbits to stuff in the rabbitholes so tantek doesn't fall in to more of them
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snarfed enjoys eating rabbit
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gRegorLove wabbit season.
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KartikPrabhu duck season
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snarfed ok then, aaronpk if you start with github, kylewm may have flickr into bridgy by the time you're done :P
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aaronpk :D
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snarfed no pressure!
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aaronpk so many projects
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snarfed prioritizing++
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Loqi prioritizing has 2 karma
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (+1386) "add how to POSSE, backfeed, Bridgy Publish / Backfeed status / feature requests, move feeds down, prepend stub Export from section, POSSE copies" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/tantek: kylewm I'm leaving a trail of wiki edits as I climb out of the rabbitholes.
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (+639) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ subheads for people, more links" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (-19) "/* Bridgy Publish POSSE */ link to github issue" (view diff)
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Loqi slack/tantek: gregorlove re would be cool, see ^^^ and comment on that Bridgy publish issue 432
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Loqi slack/tantek: crawls out of that one too.
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Loqi [mention] Matthias Pfefferle posted 'Für das SCREENGUIDE Magazin (Ausgabe 26) wurde Aaron Parecki zum Thema Indie Web (Camp) interviewt. Das abgedruckte Interview ist aus Platzg...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (http://notizblog.org/2015/07/23/interview-mit-aaron-parecki/)
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Loqi [mention] Matthias Pfefferle posted 'Für das SCREENGUIDE Magazin (Ausgabe 26) wurde Aaron Parecki zum Thema Indie Web (Camp) interviewt. Das abgedruckte Interview ist aus Platzg...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/reader (http://notizblog.org/2015/07/23/interview-mit-aaron-parecki/)
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Loqi [mention] Matthias Pfefferle posted 'Für das SCREENGUIDE Magazin (Ausgabe 26) wurde Aaron Parecki zum Thema Indie Web (Camp) interviewt. Das abgedruckte Interview ist aus Platzg...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://notizblog.org/2015/07/23/interview-mit-aaron-parecki/)
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KevinMarks talking of multilingual posts…
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Loqi slack/tantek: How do you link to a specific function name in a github file?
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Loqi slack/tantek: Instead of just a line number (which is more fragile)
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aaronpk i should ask if I can copy that text to my site, both english and german
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aaronpk tantek: you can link to a line number from a specific git commit so that it's permanent
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Loqi I agree
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Loqi slack/tantek: A specific commit would also go out of out date.
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KevinMarks fragmention, tantek?
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aaronpk well it can't by definition
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Loqi slack/tantek: Wat
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snarfed heh, you're both right. both have drawbacks. line number at HEAD will eventually point to a different line than the one you want. line number at a commit won't, but the file it shows will eventually be stale.
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aaronpk for example this will always link to the same line even if there are changes made later https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/6701504876d6c9242eb310b35f41d40d9785ab4e/Mf2/Parser.php#L44
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aaronpk ah yes
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snarfed usually specific commit is the better tradeoff
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aaronpk linking to function name (e.g. with fragmention) has the same problem that the function might disappear later anyway
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KevinMarks https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/master/Mf2/Parser.php#function%20parse($input,%20$url%20=%20null,%20$convertClassic%20=%20true)
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KevinMarks you'd need the params for Java, incase they overloaded it
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KevinMarks for PHP https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/master/Mf2/Parser.php#function%20parse( is probably OK
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kylewm params are part of the function signature!
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aaronpk in php you can't have two functions named the same thing with different params
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cweiske ... unless you use __call or __callStatic
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 1 day, 4 hours ago: thanks for the heads-up re: /edit - only publishing example(s) so far. updated my post reference to /edit with a parenthetical note accordingly (like person-tag in 2014) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437581033791
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aaronpk that totally doesn't count lol
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Loqi cweiske: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: have to make a hfeed2atom proxy for aaronpk to use first :) On the list for tonight http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437589737192
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gRegorLove Cool, tantek. The todo list gets longer. :)
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tantek.com edited /2015/Demos (+58) "Brighton demos will end up on their own page(s), like the rest of the Brighton 2015 pages" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://lostfocus.de/100-words-046/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+58) "/* Interests */ Flickr" (view diff)
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bret Made a native twitter video uploading module: https://www.npmjs.com/package/twitter-video
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loqi.me created /clippy (+123) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /clippy (-2) (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /clippy (+4) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /lulz (+13) "/* Local */ clippy" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /clippy (+87) "📎" (view diff)
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@davidpeach1 Finally got round to adding a bookmarklet to quickly add bookmark links to my website. #indieweb #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/624320275178323968)
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dblogit.com created /User:Dblogit.com (+316) "Add page and summary" (view diff)
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dblogit.com edited /User:Dblogit.com (+36) "Add github" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /clippy (+113) "see also wikify, try including in dfn too" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /clippy (+0) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /clippy (+0) "-mt" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /clippy (-6) "0mt" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /clippy (+5) "mt" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (-1) (view diff)
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gRegorLove I released my ProcessWire webmention plugin and someone asked if WordPress can handle webmentions too. I gave a brief rundown and pointed them back here, so maybe we'll get some more WordPress indieweb interest, too. https://processwire.com/talk/topic/10486-module-webmention/?p=99162
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+95) "/* Contributions */ ProcessWire Webmention" (view diff)
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tantek welcome back shiflett, how was lunch? ;)
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kylewm gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 24 karma
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shiflett tantek: Not bad. Went for a run. :-)
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shiflett Cannot adjust to Boulder altitude, though. It's killing me.
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tantek you'll adjust, and then if/when you run at lower altitudes you'll fly
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shiflett Hope so.
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tantek you know it's bad when a *blogging company's* blog post permalinks die http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2003/06/why-we-need-ech.html
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gRegorLove Heh
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tantek.com edited /Atom (+122) "/* Echo */ use archive.org link because this post (and the comments) are too much of a historical gem not to surface" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: Did you see https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/624056657329307648, where a startup blogged explicitly about dogfooding... on Medium
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@kevinmarks so @frontendy, if you're slef-dogfooding your web-building product, why are you writing on medium and not your own site? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/624056657329307648)
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tantek yeah, I just don't even
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gRegorLove Their response was weak
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tantek No one replied with the Inigo Montoyo video?
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tantek That word [dogfood], I don't think it means what you think it means
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gRegorLove Hahah
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tantek how is that not a meme?
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gRegorLove "Not right now. We're focusing on our incredible journey."
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aaronpk http://meme.loqi.me/4cKGEJjU.jpg
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KevinMarks hm, the old microformat generators would be great if they connected to micropub http://microformats.org/code/hcalendar/creator
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tantek aaronpk - I don't think that's the right framegrab for Inigo
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tantek IIRC that looks like a frame from a battle scene
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tantek whereas I believe the "inconceivable" dialog takes place outdoors in the daylight
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tantek the battle scene is more when he says like "... prepare to die"
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aaronpk huh that's what showed up in an image search. oh well.
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tantek tries to find a video clip
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gRegorLove rabbithole++
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Loqi rabbithole has 1 karma
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tantek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
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loqi.me created /inconceivable (+162) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /inconceivable (+36) "see also, p-summary" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+67) "sort, inconceivable" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Atom (+939) "/* RSS Atom wars */ opening shots, cite comments, provide analysis, and prescient quote!" (view diff)
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tantek cool - I can now use tantek.com/github/cassis rather than linking to github.com/tantek/cassis - question - is this a bad idea URL management-wise?
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aaronpk interesting!
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tantek similarly I've been able to use tantek.com/w/ instead of links to pbworks, thus creating links I control rather than they control, but that was easier as it was just a flat space of named pages
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tantek (no hierarchy)
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@teleject Weird being at a conference where people ask, "what's your channel?" and not "what's your web site?" #vidcon #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/624341375115395072)
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aaronpk !
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csarven tantek Consider using tantek.com/source/cassis instead.
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tantek csarven that would require designing a URL hierarchy for "/source"
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tantek but point taken, similar to using /w instead of /pbworks
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csarven As opposed to github/cassis ?
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tantek right - no design needed, but rather forced by github's URL design
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csarven If you can have /cassis that's probably best
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tantek well I do, /cassis.js :)
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csarven My reasoning was that, if github disappears, or you want to change the service or even the versioning system, it doesn't need to be tied to cassis in any way.
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tantek right, that's a good reason to do my own /source URL design *at some point*
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tantek yet as a stopgap, it's reasonable to use /github - and just copy / depend on their URL design
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tantek because eventually if/when I switch to /source, I can redirect all the /github links to whatever URL design I come up with in the future
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tantek without having to figure them out now
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tantek but this was a good exercise to prove that a) I am dependent on github's URL design for now, and b) I can delay design of my own /source path until the point in time when I feel like doing so.
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tantek goes to update his User: page accordingly
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atomicules tantek: Why not just host your own code repository?
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aaronpk baby steps
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tantek atomicules, replacing my github path is much more than just "code repository"
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csarven What is GitLab?
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Loqi GitLab offers git repository management, code reviews, issue tracking, activity feeds and wikis https://indiewebcamp.com/GitLab
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aaronpk yea...not trivial
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tantek exactly. and until then, I'll wait for others for whom this is a bigger itch to work through POSSEing and backfeeding to/from Github: http://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub#POSSE_to_GitHub
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aaronpk i'm running not one, but two GItlabs right now
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atomicules Any new projects I'm using Fossil for and self-hosting. I'm keeping Github for my legacy projects.
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tantek ditching github is not really practical until you have that working, unless you don't care about the "github community", which frankly, is the biggest reason most people use it, even those that would normally self host (e.g. W3C)
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atomicules Fossil makes self-hosting a doddle.
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tantek what is Fossil?
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aaronpk because they made so many changes to the first version that I installed that an upgrade was not feasible
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Fossil" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100C
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atomicules fossil-scm.org
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aaronpk and now both of my instances are so far out of date that I can't upgrade either
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tantek Fossil is fossil-scm.org.
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loqi.me created /Fossil (+52) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-23/line/1437690394239 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps add to /Gitlab#Criticism?
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atomicules Right, back to lurking.
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snarfed githubcommunity++
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Loqi githubcommunity has 1 karma
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aaronpk yeah the community is the main reason to use github
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aaronpk as soon as cross-site/cross-silo code collaboration is possible then i'll host my own public repos
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Slavishly copy and pasting your webmention JavaScript, but nothing being displaying (but no errors); where should I start looking? (twitter.com/_/status/624345894654222336)
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+871) "note silo use of Github, incremental indieweb steps (using URLs where I own the domain, then generic path, redirects, owning my repos etc.)" (view diff)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Also worth noting that I’m pointing to an endpoint over at webmention.io – will your scripts work with that JSON? (twitter.com/_/status/624346591579779072)
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kylewm atomicules: Fossil does not use git does it/
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kylewm ?
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kylewm "In addition to doing distributed version control like Git and Mercurial" is ambiguous
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tantek atomicules: another question while you're here, do you know when you first started POSSEing to Flickr? Could you provide a photo post permalink on your site of an example and the Flickr POSSE copy permalink also? https://indiewebcamp.com/Flickr#atomicules
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kevinmarks.com edited /RSS (+426) "/* History */" (view diff)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Ah yes, rarely different output. May try to install your webmention server again! (twitter.com/_/status/624352099766259712)
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+285) "/* 2011 */ add W3C Workshop on Identity in the Browser, tangentially indieweb related (web identity), but just a month before first IWC, and I attended/presented" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct (+617) "open code of conduct subsection - how to use IWC code of conduct for your own org - please review!" (view diff)
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tantek I added a section about how you can use our code of conduct as an open code of conduct: https://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct#Open_Code_of_Conduct without claiming to be authoritative on anything etc. Just a you can use this if you want kind of thing
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tantek please review!
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ben_thatmustbeme looks good to me
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ben_thatmustbeme in writing up my ideas on how groups should work, i have some ideas on how to make groups work in indieweb
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