#indiewebcamp 2015-07-24

2015-07-24 UTC
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: I'd be interested to hear it
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aaronpk
i just came back to irc to type up some thoughts i had about something similar
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aaronpk
i just had a situation where I wanted to POSSE to a destination (which happens to be a group) where on my iste I want to emphasize the group I am sharing to, rather than my current design which shows syndication destinations very small
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aaronpk
in this case, the POSSE destination adds context
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tantek
is a group like a mailing list?
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aaronpk
could be
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tantek
or is it like a Twitter list?
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aaronpk
in this case it's a Slack group
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tantek
this is the problem with the term "group" - it's so overloaded that that when you (anyone) says "how to make groups work" it could mean so many different things
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aaronpk
so yes, more like a mailing list
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: a public or private group?
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tantek
aaronpk - an indieweb-based alternative for mailing lists that didn't suck could be interesting
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tantek
e.g. presumably it would be expected that all contributions to it would be POSSEd?
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KevinMarks
so kind of the way I use #indieweb on twitter to ping y'all in here?
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aaronpk
hehe hthere are so many variations of "group"
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tantek
kylewm: private groups are interesting to me, specifically: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Private_Groups
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: start with public but private could work pretty easily
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ben_thatmustbeme
i figure a group (in the google+ communities sense of the word) is really just a collection of posts by
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ben_thatmustbeme
various authors, syndicated to an h-feed
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tantek
I think Google+ is a horrible example to use for the design of a "group" - their UX is awkward/clumsy IMO
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tantek
the example of FB private groups shows IMO how a group is not "really just a collection of posts"
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tantek
there's a lot of very deliberate UX design that went into FB groups
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kylewm
the news about Reddit lately is making me really wary about developing a public-by-default platform with no moderation tools
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tantek
IMO much more detailed and well thought-through than anything in G+
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tantek
kylewm: indeed
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kylewm
tantek: also LiveJournal...
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kylewm
their groups were amazingly good
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: how is it not just a collection of posts with the exception of being shared privately
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: see my previous link
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ben_thatmustbeme
obviously there are some additional parts like members list and invites
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tantek
thus it's misleading to use the "just a ..." framing
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm thinking in terms of how simplest to post "to a group"
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was thinking, we already have tagging people via url
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ben_thatmustbeme
why not just the url of an h-feed
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I suppose I'm saying that's "just" a tag aggregator, not a group
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: that sounds a lot like how I want syndicating to indienews to work
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm saying thats what a basic group is. privacy is taken at a different level, and yes there are a few other parts membership / inviting
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ben_thatmustbeme
which ovbiously woudl need to be worked out
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tantek
I'm saying "topic-centric" like that is not actually a "group"
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ben_thatmustbeme
"Post to it such that only those in the group can see it (expectation, future members could see it too) " that will be really interesting
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tantek
I'm saying that "group" brings an additional semantic of being more about the group of people, than the group of posts.
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tantek
And that's difficult to capture/express
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tantek
heck a group of posts is just a /collection
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aaronpk
do I need to build out indienews to work this way just to illustrate this point?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: what point are you trying to illustrate?
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aaronpk
tantek's point
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ben_thatmustbeme
i know there is more to it
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i'm staying its a good first step
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: but i'm saying its a good first step
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ben_thatmustbeme
was trying to get a minimal working system, and yes its just a collection, but you start with a collection that others can write to
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aaronpk
that's why I suggested I implement it, so we can get past the first step :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
then you move to building up some system of "joining" and seeing other members
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: sounds great to me
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ben_thatmustbeme
we haven't even gotten direct mentions in private posts really working yet, private groups will be a whole other step
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aaronpk
i'm looking for someone to implement the other half of http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention with me!
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i'd be up for it
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have a rather long list of things i want to do still though
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aaronpk
meeee toooo
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ben_thatmustbeme
I feel like you and I are always trying to implement stuff first
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ben_thatmustbeme
vouch, swat0,
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aaronpk
haha and yet i still feel so far behind sometimes
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, you don't even have snarks yet :P
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tantek
ok we need to document this complete lack of irony awareness
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tantek
what is Frontendy?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Frontendy" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100D
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ben_thatmustbeme
woah, loqi does short urls now?
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Loqi
dude
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tantek
Um, wat: "Through our past working experience we found that many companies don’t participate in dogfooding. Companies sell their solution to customers, yet they don’t see the need in using it themselves." - https://medium.com/@frontendy/be-the-early-adopters-of-your-product-d6888305ca6c
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tantek
are we sure this really isn't satire?
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@frontendy
Good question @kevinmarks. May be someday, but now we are focusing on a platform for building Saas applications. Thanks for reading.
(twtr.io/11vVDXPwJR4)
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tantek
"Would your customers trust you if you didn’t eat at your own restaurant?" (!!!)
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tantek
@frontendy why aren't you eating at your own restaurant and instead eating at Medium's?
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tantek
"use your solution as early as you can and it will give you a head start in your journey of building a great product like it did for us at Frontendy." (!!!)
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ben_thatmustbeme
feels the need to comment
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tantek
@frontendy why aren't you using your solution as early as you can, and instead using Medium?
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KevinMarks
after all all the backend tools build a blog platform as their example
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tantek
"Frontendy is a web platform for rapid web application development."
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tantek
@frontendy how long will it take you to build a simple company blog on your "web platform for rapid web application development" instead of using Medium?
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ben_thatmustbeme
it is weird to get notified when you have been added to a list in twitter
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tantek
"We kick-start you with an infrastructure and all you have to build are web components specific to your business."
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, other difference between lists in twitter and "groups" or whatever you wish to call it. Direct control over adding your content to it
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ben_thatmustbeme
twitter just aggrigates
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tantek
@frontendy why are you not kick-starting your own blog with your infrastucture?
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tantek
"After spending some time with Frontendy as a tool we confirmed that it is never too early to start ‘eating’ your own product." (!!!)
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tantek
@frontendy is it too early to build a blog using Frontendy?
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tantek
"Today we chose to build with our platform and this approach to web development has become natural for us." (!!!)
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tantek
@frontendy is using Medium to blog more natural for you than building with your platform?
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tantek
Unbelievable
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tantek
what is Frontendy?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Frontendy" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100E
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reidab
OpenID using the domain you don't use anymore: the gift that keeps on giving
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aaronpk
same is true for email to be fair
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reidab
yep
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reidab
I got around it by replacing my HTTP redirect with a blank page on the old domain with delegation info and a meta redirect :/
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aaronpk
heh nice
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tantek
Frontendy is frontendy.com, self-described "web platform for rapid web application development", that ironically wrote a post advocating [[dogfooding]] on [[Medium]] https://medium.com/@frontendy/be-the-early-adopters-of-your-product-d6888305ca6c instead of posting on their own site.[https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/624056657329307648]
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@kevinmarks
so @frontendy, if you're slef-dogfooding your web-building product, why are you writing on medium and not your own site? #indieweb
(twtr.io/11vUKxaePE8)
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reidab
I was going to use the indieauth delegation, but I didn't want to put the old domain on all my oauth providers (or be forced to always use GPG auth)
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tantek
Frontendy is frontendy.com, self-described "web platform for rapid web application development", that ironically wrote a post advocating [[dogfooding]] on [[Medium]] https://medium.com/@frontendy/be-the-early-adopters-of-your-product-d6888305ca6c instead of posting on their own site.
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loqi.me
created /Frontendy (+311) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-23/line/1437698900205 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
reidab: the email(persona) auth is a good choice in that case
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tantek.com
edited /Frontendy (+92) "cite kevinmarks tweet, see also selfdogfood"
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@dissolve333
@frontendy apparently its too early to be able to build a blog in your own tool. #selfdogfooding #fail (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/7/24/2/)
(twtr.io/11xQNeeUuKj)
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ben_thatmustbeme
should have written that as a snark
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tantek.com
edited /Frontendy (+31) "p-summary"
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reidab
aaronpk: ah, good point - I'll give that a try
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tantek.com
edited /Frontendy (+2) "move URL to link"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Frontendy (+12) "<snark/>"
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tantek
aaronpk: shouldn't that be Category:irony?
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aaronpk
oh man yes it should
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aaronpk
side note: interesting that mediawiki's use of the term "category" is the same as mf2!
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aaronpk
noticing more and more #indieweb on hackernews https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9939418
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aaronpk
except that the blog post is js;dr
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@frontendy
@dissolve333 good idea for the next proof of concept, thanks!
(twtr.io/11xSFdDd5SQ)
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ben_thatmustbeme
a blog, how novel
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aaronpk
i can see the hackernews headline now
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aaronpk
"How we used Frontendy to build the Frontendy blog"
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tantek
well perhaps there's hope for frontendy
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tantek
I have a feeling they're realizing the irony of their Medium post, and hopefully rallying to the challenge internally
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tantek
silo raising their walls a bit higher
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ben_thatmustbeme
note the date too, may end up on the timeline for site-deaths, hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme
maybe not site-deaths, but on their own timeline certainly
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aaronpk
whee silos
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tantek
Just another brick in the(ir) wall.
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aaronpk
does Known micropub not support the "name" parameter?
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aaronpk
oh maybe it's my bad
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aaronpk
yeah that was my fault :)
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aaronpk
ownyourgram now supports post-by-email!
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aaronpk
which means also post by mms
hidgw and todrobbins joined the channel
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acegiak
Having fun posting DnD stuff to my blog complete with Cheesy CSS
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GWG
Cheesy CSS?
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acegiak
parchment background, handwritten font for titles
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acegiak
super kitch but also fun
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GWG
I'm doing something of limited utility.
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GWG
Putting spaces in arrays
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GWG
WordPress Coding Standards
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GWG
Which mean spaces, and function documentation and such.
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acegiak
oh fun
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GWG
It started when snarfed suggested unit tests for Micropub. I set up some testing tools. There was a WordPress test suite...which included the coding standards.
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GWG
So...
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GWG
Here I am.
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GWG
I'm setting up all my plugins for testing.
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cweiske
!tell aaronpk, I get a blank page when trying to sign into your page.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
what page?
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Loqi
aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 40 seconds ago: get a blank page when trying to sign into your page. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-23/line/1437711326735
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cweiske
your home page
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aaronpk
oh huh
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cweiske
GDJx9kPZWoKMzYnDx7y-4BduN-VYylKOlKN2ikOofH-HM0ynkVJwT1Q2nnNBPvbU3ho7FUG-1Qr9PnhlTYAH5DaAXGRcmCXDe-b8e8_LuIW8kDkBlR4kNygP2QWjJoVE4KARPmT57wc-.LOw2abVS9AcpI5eX4OkyDA%3D%3D&me=http%3A%2F%2Fcweiske.de%2F
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aaronpk
weird!
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aaronpk
i will have to look later
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@papapelz
Alles, was #indieweb so mit sich bringt an Plugins ist installiert und läuft. Responses aus Twitter und FB laufen auch schick rein. #lt
(twtr.io/11xvkZK2gd8)
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atomicules
Delayed responses, sorry bed called.
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atomicules
kylewm: No, Fossil isn't git. It's a different version control system altogether. It can import and export from git repos though.
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atomicules
kylewm: But on the plus side it is low on dependencies, is one self-contained exe and has issues/tickets built in.
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atomicules
tantek: For POSSEing to Flickr I have only tested with private photos so far, but my set-up does work
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atomicules
tantek: Long story, but I like film photography, but wife/daughters like ponies and the money tends to go on ponies instead of film
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atomicules
tantek: So I have long gaps between getting stuff developed and uploaded
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atomicules
tantek: I'll see if I can find another photo so I can have an example post for the wiki though.
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@johnnieingram
So, is Facebook comment retrieval totally broken for #IndieWeb at the moment, or am I missing something?
(twtr.io/11y91jPR2WQ)
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@petermolnar
@TransNOC @kevinmarks unfortunately, it's not, but doable. Thankfully we have http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress/Security to sum it up, feel free to add tips ;)
(twtr.io/11y9PDCLDSQ)
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voxpelli
Is there any Micropub client today that publishes anything else than h-entries?
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@NCREDINBURGH
Don't Forget @NCREDINBURGH are hosting #IndieWebCamp in Edinburgh this weekend > http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh
(twtr.io/11yCvtMMqdw)
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@0hjc
RT @NCREDINBURGH: Don't Forget @NCREDINBURGH are hosting #IndieWebCamp in Edinburgh this weekend > http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh
(twtr.io/11yDEjB1V68)
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petermolnar
good morning
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petermolnar
had anyone seen this: https://thegrid.io/ ? any opinions?
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acegiak
petermolnar: creepy
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petermolnar
buzzword & venture money imho
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petermolnar
also, calling algorithms and learning patterns and AI is a bit of an overstatement
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rhiaro
I need to write something that pre-populates Quill from train website confirmation pages to post my travel plans
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petermolnar.eu
edited /site-deaths (+341) "frontback.me"
(view diff)
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petermolnar.eu
edited /site-deaths (+4) "/* Any Day Now */"
(view diff)
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cweiske
rhiaro, your webmentions work :)
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rhiaro
cweiske: sweet :)
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rhiaro
did wonder
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rhiaro
if you'd get that
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cweiske
I got a mail
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rhiaro
Nice when I'm just googling stuff and I find a site that receives webmentions by chance
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rhiaro
makes bookmarking things that much more satisfying
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cweiske
how do you get notified that the bookmarked link is linkback-enabled?
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rhiaro
I don't, I just assumed you did
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Loqi
[mention] http://davidpea.ch linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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KevinMarks
petermolnar: the grid is actually pretty crap at its job: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/574630264485216256
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@Steven_Mitch
RT @NCREDINBURGH: Don't Forget @NCREDINBURGH are hosting #IndieWebCamp in Edinburgh this weekend > http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh
(twtr.io/11y_qFyA5SQ)
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyone have any thoughts on a way to publicly post a join to a group
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ben_thatmustbeme
assuming the group is at a specific URL
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rhiaro
oh yay, new post types
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Loqi
woot
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rhiaro
haven't thought about groups yet though
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ben_thatmustbeme
just starting to build up ideas on it
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rhiaro
could be similar to rsvping to events
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rhiaro
given that you could invite to groups, too
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was thinking that for invites indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, hadn't considered the "No" to an invite to a group
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ben_thatmustbeme
well then there are two cases for joining a group, respond yes to an invite, or just directly join
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ben_thatmustbeme
i would prefer they be the same markup, or rather they could overlap
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, i don't see anything on responding to an event invitation
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@helloanselm
See this list of site deaths. The internet forgets: https://indiewebcamp.com/site_deaths
(twtr.io/11yanF_PkCY)
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rhiaro
I've seen responding to event invitaitons somewhere
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: rel=member-of + a webmention? :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
ahh n to create an RSVP post in reply to the event post (and in reply to the invitation post!),
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rhiaro
That sounds about right
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voxpelli
ah, see now that your pointing at the activity of joining rather than the state of being a member
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli: hmm, that doesn't work well if you wanted a closed group
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: private webmention?
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rhiaro
I'd just rsvp to the group URL
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli: not a private group, a closed group
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rhiaro
Wouldn't it work the same as private any kind of posts?
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ben_thatmustbeme
so its a publicly readable group, but you want to "join" but then you have to be approved
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: will be hard to stop anyone from pretending to be part of your group?
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ben_thatmustbeme
just saying member-of is presuptuous to me
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voxpelli
so the receiver would have to moderate it
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voxpelli
well, all XFN relations are purely claimns – I can add a rel-me on my profile claiming that I am you :) But without a link back to my profile no one will believe me
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli: certainly, nothing to stop people from claiming to be part of the group, but its what is listed for members on the group that is the true "members"
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: so just like relmeauth you check that the link is bidirectional?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i suppose thats pretty simple, and doesn't need to introduce any new microformats
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voxpelli
(not sure if rel=member-of is actually the right wording though)
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ben_thatmustbeme
the question then becomes leaving a group
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats why i think the u-join-of / u-leave-of idea might work better
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voxpelli
WebMentions support deletions
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ben_thatmustbeme
i figured the group itself could be an h-feed but no author tag, instead a list of member h-cards
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voxpelli
I feel that membership is a state and should be expressed as a property of someones profile rather than as an activity in someones feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
webmention to the h-feed (u-category of the h-feef url) and it will get posted to the group (really just syndication to the group)
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli: creating a post doesn't necessitate posting to a feed
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: then it's impossible for anyone who hasn't historically followed the feed to know if someone is a member or not and impossible to verify if the group's claim that I'm a member of them is actually true?
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, good point, group owner can add whoever they want
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ben_thatmustbeme
i suppose thats more like a twitter list then
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voxpelli
it's a bit like followers vs friends – a one-directional "rel-friend" is a follow while a bi-directional is a friend-relation
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rhiaro
I think both state and property are useful. You might want to keep track of when you join/leave groups. Which is also why just deleting the original join post isn't necessarily useful. Unless you create a deelte post..
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rhiaro
s/deelte/datestamped delete
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Loqi
rhiaro meant to say: I think both state and property are useful. You might want to keep track of when you join/leave groups. Which is also why just deleting the original join post isn't necessarily useful. Unless you create a datestamped delete post..
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voxpelli
rhiaro: absolutely! representing a join/leave as an activity is a good thing as well
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voxpelli
and I guess that's what eg. Facebook does – list groups you're a member of on your profile + announces that you join in your feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
but voxpelli is correct, it would be nice to have the bidirectional relationship
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i would not want to publicly list all groups i'm part of on my profile. indeed, i don't do that on FB
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@orKoN
RT @helloanselm: See this list of site deaths. The internet forgets: https://indiewebcamp.com/site_deaths
(twtr.io/11ybq_zzgWf)
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: private-webmentions could show a private version of your profile to the ones you want to reveal the membership to?
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voxpelli
(I'm partly guessing, haven't looked that hard into the proposal for private-webmentions yet)
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i'm trying to keep totally private out of it for now, just to keep simplicity. was trying to account for various public types though
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ben_thatmustbeme
like being part of a group and not publishing it (hidden URL), and approval to join a group, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme
i may already be considering too much and perhaps we should just get joining / leaving a totally public group working, build from there
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ben_thatmustbeme
so, the other question I had was about comments on posts in the group. if someone outside the group comments on a post in the group (assuming the salmention comes up to the group) should it be shown as a response to the post from within the group h-feed or not?
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: that's up to each implementation I think
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think it might be odd only showing replies from those in the group. the reply conversation could get really confusing otherwise
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ben_thatmustbeme
ideally if its a group post, you only accept replies from those in the group
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ben_thatmustbeme
but again, up to the implementation i suppose
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voxpelli
I would probably accept and save all of the data and then experiment with the presentation of it
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Kongaloosh
Question: is there a good example of posts with image collections, or albums?
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@NthDesignMktg
RT @NCREDINBURGH: Don't Forget @NCREDINBURGH are hosting #IndieWebCamp in Edinburgh this weekend > http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh
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@papapelz
Gibts hier wen, die/der mir mit #indieweb, #ownyourgram und #wordpress weiterhelfen kann? #followerpower
(twtr.io/11yen490eAw)
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@fruehesvogerl
RT @papapelz: Gibts hier wen, die/der mir mit #indieweb, #ownyourgram und #wordpress weiterhelfen kann? #followerpower
(twtr.io/11yfFxhtt8G)
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@MorrisPelzel
New #diigo bookmark: IndieWebify.Me--a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb http://indiewebify.me/#send-webmentions
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GWG
petermolnar: I saw your audio thing. Why CPT?
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tantek
what is thegrid.io?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "thegrid.io" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100F
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tantek
what is CPT?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CPT" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100G
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tantek
reads logs
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ben_thatmustbeme
is sure tantek will have input on discussion from early
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/early/earlier
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: is sure tantek will have input on discussion from earlier
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tantek
hey ben_thatmustbeme I suggest before working on groups that you try getting /event and /rsvp posting working
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have rsvp working, but not events
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tantek
doing so will help you explore many related issues to groups
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tantek
since an event is kind of like an ephemeral group
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tantek
and in some cases, the comment threads / discussions on an event keep going long after the event itself, thus acting effectively like a group
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tantek
and events have /invitation too
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tantek
so I'd say get those three working - /event /RSVP /invitation and you'll be most of the way towards understanding how groups could work
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ben_thatmustbeme
probably a good idea
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tantek
since those are "solved" problems
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aaronpk
interesting how much overlap there is!
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i understand how they work, just haven't coded them yet
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GWG
CPT is short for Custom Post Type, a confusingly named WordPress feature.
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loqi.me
created /CPT (+101) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-24/line/1437753577221 and dfn added by GWG"
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm always looking for the simpler solved thing
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i'm sure more understanding will come with coding
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petermolnar
custom post -> because it's special enought to be a custom post, in my opinion; I also need custom taxonomy for a, sanity b, easy search options
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petermolnar
but to be honest, I'll probably drop that project; I've added a last.fm import to it and loaded my last.fm zip without realizing I'm just about to add 4k album, 1k artist and ~10k entries
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aaronpk
haha that's gonna be great petermolnar
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: more understanding will come with building a functional UX flow for yourself
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GWG
petermolnar: I might pick up some of the code.
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tantek
more so than the actual coding
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petermolnar
GWG by the way, I had to rename it from audioscrobbler; I wasn't aware that 'audioscrobbler' is a trademarked name
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@2kindchaos_mo
RT @papapelz: Gibts hier wen, die/der mir mit #indieweb, #ownyourgram und #wordpress weiterhelfen kann? #followerpower
(twtr.io/11ymsFtn12x)
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GWG
petermolnar: I don't scrobble really. So I will probably not rush
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aaronpk
i can't wait til I can scrobble
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GWG
aaronpk: Why?
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tantek
is it in your itches?
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petermolnar
off to home, be back later
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aaronpk
cause i have a ton of data on two different last.fm accounts and I want them in one place
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GWG
aaronpk: Oh.
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tantek
anyway - I would avoid any attempt at pre-designing "group" posts / markup until you have at least a skeleton UX flow figured out *and documented* (e.g. with sketches / screenshots)
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tantek
otherwise you're likely to design markup / details for something which is frankly not very user friendly
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tantek
so you'll figure out lots of logical details, for something that doesn't actually provide good user functionality
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GWG
I am trying to figure out how to mix implied and explicit types in a system
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tantek
GWG, rhiaro had some good thoughts on that
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tantek
mostly about original posts vs. /responses
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GWG
tantek: Where can I find those thoughts?
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tantek
I'm not sure if she captured them anywhere beyond IRC - though I think she blogged a bit about it a while ago
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GWG
I have to work within an existing structure, which can be challenging
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rhiaro
possibly rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types
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tantek
that's the one
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rhiaro
though my thinking has moved on a bit since
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tantek
keeps reading this morning's log and sees a bit too much plumbing-focused discussion :P
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aaronpk
that's funny, that's what happened with my post about post types
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GWG
That is why I am looking at Micropub.
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tantek
look I know it's tempting to jump to how to markup - because that's the *easier* problem to solve. but you'll likely end up with a poor solution overall.
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tantek
it's harder, but you absolutely must focus on first figuring out good UX flow, and prototyping, *before* you jump into markup nitty gritty
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aaronpk
hey looks like that's when I was starting to think about micropub!
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tantek
it's almost analogous to bikeshedding - that is, it's much easier to argue about the paint color, than how to build the reactor, so people debate the paint color first
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aaronpk
wow none of my bike sheds have a reactor in them!
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GWG
tantek: In my cser, I am building an addition on my house.
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tantek
voxpelli++ for bring the conversation back to the UX of "what eg. Facebook does"
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Loqi
voxpelli has 35 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: when you require at least two people its good to at least get some ideas out on the subject though
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tantek
aaronpk - the point is the bikeshed is supposed to be *an addition* to the reactor
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats more what that was about this morning, its not like we are spending a lot of time on it
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tantek
and yes, by obsessing over a bike shed design, you end up never actually building the reactor
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GWG
And I have to deal with the local landmark preservation board
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Loqi
GWG has 112 karma
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tantek
also I agree with figuring out private webmentions with the *simple* use-case of private messaging
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tantek
get a bunch of those working, then we can talk about how private webmentions could be used as a building block for other things
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tantek
Kongaloosh: re: "good example of posts with image collections, or albums?" did you see /collection ?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+136) "/* itching */"
(view diff)
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tantek
is caught up on logs
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: the other thing about groups - by its fundamental nature, to be useful you're going to have to convince A BUNCH of other people to implement it
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tantek
since that's the case for groups, that makes /event /RSVP /invitation a much better starting point to understand that phenomenon
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tantek
since a BUNCH of people have already implemented /event /RSVP /invitation
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats why i wanted to look at other similar ideas
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tantek
note that the FB "invite friends" UI for an event even shows previous events as if they were groups from which to choose people to invite from!
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ben_thatmustbeme
also, the reason for starting with public (maybe even auto-joined) groups. put no barier to joining the group or even any implementation needed on those that want to "join"
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tantek
so the whole event -> group thing is very much true in practice
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: so start with public events
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tantek
with no barrier to RSVPing or inviting others to them
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tantek
it really is a very similar UX flow
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tantek
but one that's much more implemented and understood
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tantek
heck you could even hack an event *into* a group by making it last e.g. for years (dt-start to dt-end)
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rhiaro.co.uk
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (-97) "/* Apprentices */"
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, with events in FB newest posts lists first don't they?
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@t
Social Web Acid Test v0 #SWAT0 @IndieWebCamp 2015 demo video: https://www.youtube.com/ 3 people/sites/implementations. (ttk.me t4cL1)
(twtr.io/11yrAWc84uQ)
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@benwerd
Edinburgh: I highly recommend #indiewebcamp. Great ideas, great people. You should go: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh #techmeetup #edinburgh
(twtr.io/11ysAe0ZTtb)
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Loqi
[mention] Ben Werdmüller posted 'Edinburgh: I highly recommend #indiewebcamp. Great ideas, great people. You should go: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh #techmeetup #e...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (http://werd.io/2015/edinburgh-i-highly-recommend-indiewebcamp-great-ideas-great-people-you)
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@Tim_beta_2015
RT @t: Social Web Acid Test v0 #SWAT0 @IndieWebCamp 2015 demo video: https://www.youtube.com/ 3 people/sites/implementations. (ttk.me t4cL1)
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@nitot
RT @benwerd: Edinburgh: I highly recommend #indiewebcamp. Great ideas, great people. You should go: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh #techmeetup #edi…
(twtr.io/11ysSw6yFxs)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: how does one disable an OwnYourGram stream? I might have created some now during testing that I might want to disable
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aaronpk
i think if you un-authorize the app in the instagram account it will stop
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aaronpk
note that one instagram account only sends to one micropub endpoint, so if you've been using the same IG account it's only sending it to the last micropub endpoint you signed in with
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voxpelli
ah, good, then that solves it :)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: also think I pinpointed the problem I had: I was sneaky and used a not-yet-live domain name for my test blog – with a Micropub discovery elsewhere – as a last resort I moved to a real domain name and now it works
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voxpelli
not sure why that would make a difference
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aaronpk
not-yet-live domain as in there was no DNS for it?
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aaronpk
so a micropub client wouldn't be able to find it
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voxpelli
well, I used a different site for the discovery
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tantek
voxpelli: what is ownyourauth?
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aaronpk
i'm not sure i follow
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voxpelli
aaronpk: basic conclusion: I did hackish stuff that broke something within OwnYourGram despite it working with eg. Quill :)
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tantek
what is ownyourauth?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ownyourauth" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100H
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voxpelli
tantek: OwnYourAuth?
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aaronpk
first i've heard of this OwnYourAuth thing
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tantek
ownyourauth is /FreeMyOAuth
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loqi.me
created /ownyourauth (+24) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-24/line/1437758778703 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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tantek
that's what I meant
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aaronpk
voxpelli: strange, yeah i'm not sure why it would work with Quill but not OwnYourGram
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aaronpk
wow so many broken images
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tantek
I wonder if there is a way with Youtube embeds to specify the "closing" frame too - like even just telling it to redisplay the poster frame when its done playing
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tantek
e.g. in the iframe embed of youtube on my site
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tantek
when someone plays it inline right there on my site, I feel like I should have some control over that, as the person doing the embedding
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@AutismU
@nickreeldx @danmunro We made you the records custodian on our portal. #democratizehealth #ownyourdata #hitsm
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rhiaro
Quick, anyone else have a pet on the indieweb?
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rhiaro
We've decided we should name the rooms Dora, Tigo and ...
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rhiaro
Well, ping me if anyone has any ideas
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aaronpk
i think I've seen ben_thatmustbeme's dog on a livestream before
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rhiaro
That's promising
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tantek
should I make a site for my roomba?
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tantek
does Loqi have its own site?
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rhiaro
does your roomba have a cute 4 letter name?
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rhiaro
oh, loqi!
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rhiaro
Perfect
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Loqi
dude
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tbrb
woo!
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tantek
welcome tbrb!
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aaronpk
haha they are all 4-letter names, that's great
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rhiaro
(tbrb is helping me iron out IWCEdi right now)
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aaronpk
if I get another pet its name is going to be Miso
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aaronpk
(do re mi so... get it?) tehehe
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tantek
sorry if I get a pet cat it will have a 3 letter nae
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tantek
s/nae/name
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: sorry if I get a pet cat it will have a 3 letter name
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@t
If I ever get a cat I'm naming it str. (ttk.me t4bV1)
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ben_thatmustbeme
eh? whats up?
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ben_thatmustbeme
hah, str, cat
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: my dog's name is Pause
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ben_thatmustbeme
they should make a .woof and .meow TLD
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rhiaro
ben_thatmsutbeme: if Pause gets a blog in the next half hour, we'll name a room at IWCEdi after him
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jgraham909.com
edited /2015/Guest_List (-2) "change personal url for Jeff Graham"
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aaronpk
rhiaro: maybe you can name the break room after ben's dog
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rhiaro
That's perfect.
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rhiaro
There's not really an explicit break room, but I could stick a 'Pause' sign on the coffee machine :)
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@papapelz
@sys_adm_ama Ich würd ja gern diesen <link href indieauth bla> auf papapelz.de draufnehmen, wenn ich wüsste, wo das hin muss. #startseite
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rhiaro
aaronpk: preferred photo for Dora's room sign?
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rhiaro
hehe. adorable.
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_6a68
anybody know of indie web projects that POSSE personal email?
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Loqi
_6a68: barnabywalters left you a message on 9/25 at 12:29pm: Re: science captchas, for me it’d have to be this question: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_water_is_dissovled_in_water_what_is_the_water
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_6a68
thanks, Loqi
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@macleodan
I'm going to the #IndieWeb Camp in Edinburgh tomorrow.
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indiewebcat.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+311) "/* Remote Participants */"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+350) "/* Remote Participants */ add myself, sort"
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, rhiaro excellent
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ben_thatmustbeme
i do plan to get pause his own blog
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ben_thatmustbeme
as well as my daughters, but they will be just syndications of posts to my site
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ben_thatmustbeme
its one of the reasons i want to get micropub chaining working well
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ben_thatmustbeme
just adds as a syndicate-to option in all my posting interfaces
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KevinMarks
I ave a dog named Abby if you want 4 letter pets
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KevinMarks
(also Katie, Phoebe and Ceophie dogs )
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KevinMarks
she doesn't have an indieweb presence though
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kylewm
cat's name is Junebug but we call her June, does that count?
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kylewm
I thought fiatjaf had a email to webmention gateway of some sort
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kylewm
what is Questo.email
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Loqi
questo.email is an indieweb/email bridge https://indiewebcamp.com/questo.email
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KevinMarks
so, micropub currently says use indieauth
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kylewm
I could give them a proxy homepage to login to micropub with... like https://silo.pub/username.tumblr.com
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kylewm
that's what snarfed recommended for silo.pub to twitter
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KevinMarks
that does reentralize
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KevinMarks
s/reentralize/recentralize/
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Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: that does recentralize
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kylewm
fastmail does a thing where you can use them as your nameserver (easy), or they give you the DKIM SPF stuff to set up on your own nameserver (more difficult)
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kylewm
it could be like that
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KevinMarks
it's like what aaronpk did ro slack
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KevinMarks
if you implement both and explain why, then you're effectively AB testing it
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KevinMarks
the other thing is that a micropub client could ask for your URL, and if they put in a silo.pub supported one, redirect them to you
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voxpelli
if you we're to not require discovery of authentication and micropub endpoint at the same place then the two would get more separated
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voxpelli
so there would be two steps – one for where you want to post, silo.pub, and another of who you are, that can be done through eg. IndieAuth
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aaronpk
That sounds related to my thoughts on the token endpoint telling the client which Micropub endpoint to use
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voxpelli
that was what I suggested for multiple micropub endpoints per user
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voxpelli
aaronpk: yeah, haven't gotten around to actually read your proposal on the wiki yet :P
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KevinMarks
it fits in with the micropub chaining too - if you want an instagram-like fanout model
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KevinMarks
at the moment that needs to be supported by the micropub server
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voxpelli
is the chaining ideas documented anywhere?
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KevinMarks
so you could have micropub middleware that brokers that
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KevinMarks
micropublican
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aaronpk
This also sounds like the oft-conflated authorization vs identification problem
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aaronpk
Ultimately a Micropub client shouldn't need to know who a user is, it just needs an access token and Micropub endpoint
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@kevinmarks
@hover you should have a look at the indieweb plugins - a good way to connect to other social media sites and silos
(twtr.io/11z2_oiPUvU)
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KevinMarks
right, but at the moment it has to do an indieauth handshake to get one
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kylewm
ideally, they would go to Quill, put in their tumblr site, get redirected to a tumblr page like "Do you want to authorize silo.pub to post to this site", they'd say yes, and off you go
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kylewm
that should be relatively easy to implement and would not require the rel=me step
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voxpelli
kylewm: that would require special handling by Quill, no?
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kylewm
nah I don't think so, not if their authorization_endpoint was silo.pub -- it would transparently redirect to tumblr's oauth page
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KevinMarks
so you'd still need to put micropub and indieauth links in, but not rel-me's
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KevinMarks
saves a vsible edit and an auth step
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Jeena
my website now also supports micropub posting of photos, weeee!
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Jeena
but I only tested it with my own implementation I hacked into Quill, so we'll see if it works with other implementations too
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KevinMarks
the more subversive answer is that Quill (or whatever) detects a tumblr/blogger/wp url and redirects them through silo.pub/blah
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KevinMarks
the fully lazy way is that you always do silo.pub/{url} and it routes them back to real indieauth
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+1259) "documented alternative possible flow for multiple micropub endpoints"
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voxpelli
aaronpk: not sure if that's the proper way to continue the brainstorm there – I guess I ideally should have left some feedback on your proposed spec as well, will try to do that soon as well
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rhiaro.co.uk
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+162) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
kylewm: true, that should be doable
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voxpelli
probably breaks a couple of ToS:es but anyhow :)
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kylewm
hehehe
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voxpelli
kylewm: also – have any feedback on that wiki brainstorm?
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kylewm
voxpelli: on my queue of things to read through but I can't just now :/
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gRegorLove
ben_thatmustbeme: Are you still using /Vouch? Do you maintain a list of referers that you don't check, like search engines, t.co, etc?
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gRegorLove
I don't have /Vouch fully working, but the processing of referers is running. Wondering the best way of not listing those as vouches.
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aaronpk
voxpelli: i'm not sure i follow your thoughts exactly
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aaronpk
i might need to see a little more about the interactions between the different compoenets
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aaronpk
like where does the token come from? and how is it verified?
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voxpelli
aaronpk: the token comes from the IndieAuth endpoint and is verified by the Micropub endpoint just like before – the discovery is just separated
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voxpelli
all Micropub endpoints already knows how to verify acceptable IndieAuth tokens
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aaronpk
oh here's another thought
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aaronpk
what if the client discovers the authorization endpoint by asking the micropub endpoint where it is
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kylewm
KevinMarks: you need to update your OpenSSL, it looks like you are vulnerable to POODLE
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kylewm
(hopes no one already made that joke)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: that wouldn't work very well for multiauthor blogs
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voxpelli
and also makes identity discoverable from the micropub endpoint again
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aaronpk
hm, i think it just means the multiauthor blog would need to implement its own auth endpoint
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aaronpk
i thought that's what we were going for?
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ben_thatmustbeme
gRegorLove: no, i check them all, i really should maintain such a list
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ben_thatmustbeme
and yes, i'm still using it
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ben_thatmustbeme
if anyone is on my whitelist they get through immediately though, i don't even store the vouch they send
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gRegorLove
Cool. I'll use you as a test once I get it working :)
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aaronpk
gRegorLove: I verify vouches too
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aaronpk
the comment will show "vouched for by ___"
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voxpelli
aaronpk: if the auth endpoint can't be found at the site where you want to publish to as it needs to be today, then why not ask the user to present authorization itself?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i can remove you from my whitelist if you like gRegorLove, for testing perposes
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aaronpk
voxpelli: i guess i don't follow the user flow in that case
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gRegorLove
Sure, though it will be a while until I'm ready, probably.
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voxpelli
aaronpk: if I invite you to guestblog at a blog of mine, then you go to a micropub client and say that you want to publish to it and then gives an authorization using your own site
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, just let me know
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gRegorLove
I'll ping you when I'm ready to test
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aaronpk
i think there are two different problems people are trying to solve here
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aaronpk
1) a user has their own identity, like aaronparecki.com, and wants to publish to multiple different locations (guest blogs, whatever)
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aaronpk
2) a user has a micropub endpoint (like silo.pub) and doesn't care about the identity
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KevinMarks
well, more that they have a silo identity
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KevinMarks
twitter, blogger, tumblr, wp etc
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voxpelli
true – the solution kylewm suggested solves 2, the comments I gave on the wiki solves 1
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aaronpk
there are really two questions: who are you? and where do you want to post?
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voxpelli
yes, or rather: how do you want to provide authorization? and where do you want to post using them? So we avoid that identity issue
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voxpelli
identity issue as in authentication != authorization
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aaronpk
yes except from the user's POV they are identifying themselves
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aaronpk
and in order to provide authorization, they do have to provide authentication anyway (authenticating at the authorization endpoint)
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aaronpk
and any micropub endpoint is going to want to know *who* is making the post, in order to add authorship info to the entry
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@HazelMcKendrick
I know it's wrong to make fun of web development but sometimes it makes that really fucking hard https://twitter.com/niccaluim/status/624261446550032384/photo/1
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@gRegorLove
@johannesdachsel @justb3a I finally released the ProcessWire Webmention module. Would love your feedback. https://processwire.com/talk/topic/10486-module-webmention/ #indieweb
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@0x0961h
@davebarr @niccaluim Like in Hey, I just call()ed you And this is crazy But here's my browser So playMeMaybe()
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KartikPrabhu
is rading back logs
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KartikPrabhu
Kongaloosh: does this count as an image collection, https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/walk-work ?
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Loqi
[bridgy] Cσϻϻλπdσ Ƙιττψ replied '@benwerd I wish American's would stop trying to export their authoritarian convos and expos across the sea. Seriously, just no. Stop it.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/InvisibleJimBSH/status/624681596919128064)
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KartikPrabhu
err what?
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gRegorLove
How's the raiding, KartikPrabhu? ;)
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KartikPrabhu
finished rading the logs :P
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Kongaloosh
KartikPrabhu: indeed, that's just what I was looking for!
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KartikPrabhu
Kongaloosh: :) I just publish them as usual HTML with a u-photo on each photo/image
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Kongaloosh
how do you store them?
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KartikPrabhu
right now they are on Google Photos because I haven't figured out a good photo hosting solution
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KartikPrabhu
but I really want to self-host them
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Kongaloosh
good to know
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KartikPrabhu
also Google Photos allows for getting different sizes of the image by changing a URL parameter, which I use to "responsive images"
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Kongaloosh
I'm self-hosting right now
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Kongaloosh
but that may be a good backup
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KartikPrabhu
nice. any particular library you use or just store them as files?
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Kongaloosh
right now I just dump them in drive
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Kongaloosh
I just store them as files
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Kongaloosh
with the same name as their .md post parent
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KartikPrabhu
cool! I do that with static images, but for photos I'd like to have the query by size feature
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Kongaloosh
yes, which seems sensible
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Kongaloosh
it's a bit of a trade off
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Kongaloosh
right now photos have to be their own post
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Kongaloosh
and 'albums' are collections of posts with associated images
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KartikPrabhu
that is a good way to do it. It would also be nice to have a bulk uploading UI to an album, then the post could simply collect all images from an album and display them
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KartikPrabhu
all this is in my future itch-list for photo :)
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snarfed
so, i dug a bit into all the FB API parts that got cut in 2.4 and will disappear in october (read_stream, shares, event invitees, event likes, http://indiewebcamp.com/me/home, - https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog#v2_4_deprecations )
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snarfed
from what i can tell, losing /me/home will entirely kill https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/ :(:(:(
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snarfed
sad. RIP FB in my reader :(
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Kongaloosh
KartikPrabhu: same here, I'd like to bulk it
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KartikPrabhu
Kongaloosh: my current process is documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Kartik_Prabhu you should add your process too
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snarfed
looks like >1k facebook-atom users right now. sad that they'll all lose it too
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /photo (-63) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ edit POSSE copies of examples"
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@papapelz
@mamaskind_de Kennst du dich mit #indieweb und WP in lieblicher Einigkeit aus? :) @2kindchaos @2kindchaos_mo
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: that is bad! It seems FB is hell bent on locking people in.
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KartikPrabhu
good thing I mostly ignore FB
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aaronpk
wow that's too bad
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snarfed
i'm hoping there's some new way somewhere
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snarfed
…but not optimistic. their messaging isn't "use this new thing instead," it's "no news feed any more." period.
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gRegorLove
"2-year deprecations"? meaning it will work for 2 more years?
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snarfed
gRegorLove: yup that's what those mean. 2-3y deprecations are common for big platforms.
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snarfed
…except /me/home and read_stream are 90-day deprecations
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GWG
snarfed: I resisted joining Facebook long after most people did. Buy that is where people who aren't anywhere else are. Like relatives
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@ClayFerguson
@t @indiewebcamp #SWAT0 @jcr @jackrabbit What will become the Federated Web of Social Portals built w/ OakJCR? Answer http://meta64.com
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j12t
aaronpk: congratulations! Nice interview!
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Loqi
j12t: tantek left you a message 3 weeks ago: you host your own CalDAV server right? which personal site do you have it on? Or perhaps just add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/caldav#IndieWeb_Examples ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-05/line/1433546259556
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