#indiewebcamp 2015-07-22

2015-07-22 UTC
lukebrooker and tantek joined the channel
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GWG
I'm still trying to figure out why there is now an IndieWebCamp WordPress Outreach Club on Github.
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GWG
snarfed1: You have any thoughts on this? I think pfefferle wants to distribute the load on some of the core WordPress Indieweb plugins.
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aaronpk
lol I don't know why either
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aaronpk
Is it an org or a user account?
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snarfed
yeah makes no sense
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GWG
aaronpk: It's an Org.
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snarfed
GWG: that may be so, but more github orgs doesn't really change anything
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snarfed
it probably shouldn't exist
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GWG
We have an Indieweb Org. I'm honestly not sure.
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aaronpk
The IndieWeb org already barely makes sense
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GWG
aaronpk: How so?
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GWG
The only organizations I'm part of are this new one, which I got invited to today, and the Indieweb one
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GWG
googles Why Have a Github Organization?
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snarfed
GWG: they're useful when a project is developed by a team, and the team is the owner more than any single person is the owner
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GWG
snarfed: Maybe it is aspirational
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snarfed
we maybe have a few projects like that - maybe - but not many
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snarfed
sure! we're just not sure what it aspires to
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GWG
snarfed: It could be that pfefferle has just been busy lately, but wants Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions to be maintained.
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snarfed
GWG: right! like i said, that makes sense, but the org doesn't really help any
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snarfed
anyway
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GWG
snarfed: I'm hoping he pops in to discuss it
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@PIMIebooks
RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #poetrycollection love pain rejection melancholy selfactualization hope dreams aspirations indieauth http:/…
(twtr.io/11t3AuBNxd8)
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GWG
I'd like to get them as WordPress feature plugins someday.
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GWG
Either in whole or part
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GWG
I'd personally like to see more people interested in iterating the plugins in general though.
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aaronpk
Happy to put Wordpress plugins in the IndieWeb org too if someone doesn't want to have it on their own account
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GWG
aaronpk: I can't even decide what should be the criteria for a 'required' Indieweb WordPress plugin
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aaronpk
I don't think I understand
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GWG
The Indieweb Plugin, which is just an installer for Indieweb plugins, declares only two plugins as ones you MUST install.
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aaronpk
I just mean if someone has a plugin like Webmention handling or something and they want it to be more community maintained then that's fine for the IndieWeb org
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GWG
Webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks.
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GWG
One handles the plumbing of webmentions, and the other enhances linkbacks to pretty presentations.
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kylewm
it seems like those two should be merged
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GWG
kylewm: Semantic Linkbacks also enhances pingbacks. It doesn't require webmentions
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kylewm
nevertheless...
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kylewm
the end user behavior you want to enable is receiving mf2-formatted mentions, you need both of those pieces
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GWG
kylewm: Semantic Linkbacks supports mf2 as the format medium, but allows for other parsers as well
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kylewm
aren't people confused when you tell them two plugins to install to enable one behavior?
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GWG
Yes.
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GWG
Sometimes
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snarfed
i'm with kylewm here. we see a steady trickle of people who see ugly/broken wm comments in wp because they have one plugin but not the other, or because the versions skew
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snarfed
pluginproliferation--
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GWG
I haven't heard of anyone who wanted one without the other
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Loqi
pluginproliferation has -1 karma
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kylewm
I take your point about modularity and reuse... it is nice to have semantic-linkbacks be abstract enough to support other notification mechanisms or other parsers
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kylewm
perhaps that could be handled at a library/packaging level? so two plugins might both use the semantic-linkbacks "library"
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GWG
kylewm: That decision predates me
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GWG
What I do know is this.
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GWG
The original Indieweb plugin was a single plugin that included both plugins, but it wasn't maintained and was behind the dev versions, so it was replaced with a plugin that installed the other plugins
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GWG
WordPress, by the way, has no dependency management
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GWG
It's a complex issue
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GWG
Semantic Linkbacks uses the php-mf2 parser, by the way
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kylewm
well certainly publishing three plugins where 1 of them just installs the other 2 is not greal
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kylewm
great*
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GWG
kylewm: Then, we get to Micropub.
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GWG
Is Micropub something every WordPress Indieweb user should have?
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KevinMarks
every Known user now has it
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GWG
KevinMarks: It more goes to the question...who decides what is essential to recommend to a WordPress user who wants to get Indieweb support?
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KevinMarks
do you add mf2 markup by default, or is that still hard?
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GWG
KevinMarks: Not a simple answer.
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snarfed1
we ask what they want to do on their web site, and go from there
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snarfed1
no need to come up with "required," "recommended," etc features
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KevinMarks
indiewebify.me walks through stages, with mf2 being fairly early
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kylewm
I think Micropub and Webmention is a pretty clear distinction
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GWG
kylewm: Oh?
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GWG
The complaint I keep hearing, even at IWC Portland is that people don't understand what they need to do.
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kylewm
sure, I'm not saying every indieweb-idea needs to be wrapped up in one plugin
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aaronpk
Yes we are definitely at the point where people want an easy to follow set of instructions
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gRegorLove
+1 vote for not having a plugin-to-install-plugins.
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GWG
I just don't know what the solution is.
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GWG
Do we need an Indiewebify.me for WordPress?
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kylewm
the big plugins are Webmention, Semantic-Linksbacks, Post Kinds, and Micropub?
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GWG
I'm not sure who is using Micropub.
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gRegorLove
WP doesn't have dependency management built in, but you could do a check for a class in your plugin's install() as necessary.
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GWG
I'm not even using Micropub regularly.
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GWG
gRegorLove: Correct.
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KevinMarks
does micropub have the same issues as silo.pub - needs a lot of extra template setup to make indieauth work?
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GWG
KevinMarks: I'm not familiar enough with the issues with silo.pub.
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snarfed1
KevinMarks: no it doesn't
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snarfed
to clarify, it doesn't add rel-me links, but it adds all the auth endpoint links
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gRegorLove
Does Semantic Linkbacks work without the Webmention plugin?
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GWG
gRegorLove: Yes
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GWG
For pingbacks and trackbacks
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kylewm
yeah, GWG said it works with Pingbacks
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gRegorLove
Ok. If they remain separate plugins, how about a dependency check when installing WP Webmention plugin, "it's strongly recommended to install Semantic Linkbacks next"
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aaronpk
if i was using wordpress, i would much prefer to read a tutorial about which plugins to install than installing a plugin that tells me to install plugins
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gRegorLove
I think that's a decent flow. Given how much the term "webmention" is associated with indieweb, seems much more likely someone will install that plugin first.
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gRegorLove
So a nice prompt (dismissable) suggesting installing Semantic Linkbacks next might clear up things.
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gRegorLove
"Semantic Linkbacks" is gonna be jargon to most people, I think.
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GWG
aaronpk: I just wonder if the wiki is conducive to that tutorial, or there should be a companion site.
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GWG
gRegorLove: I don't know who named it, actually. I assume acegiak
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aaronpk
the wiki is a great place for that because it's community-maintained
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aaronpk
of course what we have in its current form is not ideal, but hey it's a wiki, we can change it!
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gRegorLove
GWG: Sure, and I'm not suggesting renaming it necessarily. Just thinking out loud.
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GWG
gRegorLove: We worked hard on improving that
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GWG
But, I tried to get interest in the WordPress community in many aspects of this
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GWG
Cleaning up the cesspool that is pingbacks.
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GWG
Microformats2
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GWG
Structured data in general
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GWG
Removing hentry from everything
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GWG
Applying hfeed per the specification
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GWG
Even trying to talk them out of adding more ombed support in favor of link previews.
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kylewm
you can lead a horse to water...
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gRegorLove
That way lie dragons
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kylewm
didn't someone say that headings had to be self-contained? i.e. not context-specific?
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kylewm
I feel like it may have even been about that specific heading
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gRegorLove
Not sure what you mean
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GWG
I'd like to try to get Semantic Linkbacks into core WordPress as a motivation for people to stop treating linkbacks as just a spam vector.
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aaronpk
bye for now! on the plane back to pdx!
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GWG
aaronpk: I didn't know you left PDX
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kylewm
you should following his instagram!
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gRegorLove
He's in San Diego for ESRI conf
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Loqi
yea!
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gRegorLove
Or, was.
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GWG
I don't Instagram
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gRegorLove
Loqi knows what's up.
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Loqi
dude
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kylewm
GWG: by instagram I mean http://aaronparecki.com/
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gRegorLove
Or reader.kylewm.com
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kylewm
gRegorLove++
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 21 karma
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aaronpk
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 193 karma
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GWG
kylewm: I thought Idid subscribe to that
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kylewm
you couldn't in tt-rss because there's no rss feed, right?
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GWG
kylewm: I have high hopes that someday I'll have a solution that works on my phone well.
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GWG
I do a lot of reading there
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kylewm
me too
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GWG
kylewm: The issue I had with tt-rss that got ridiculed was I want to pre-cache my reading.
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GWG
I hate waiting for the next article.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: GWG: plenty of readers have good phone apps!
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GWG
snarfed: None are Indie-readers
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GWG
I'm using a tt-rss instance.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: heh. you can have indie purity, or you can have actual useful functionality
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: (at least right now)
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gRegorLove
Instapaper might work well for you, if you save articles in advance.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: up to you!
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GWG
I'm accepting the lack of purity. But some people I want to consume are purists and lack RSS feeds.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: if you're OK with impurity, might as well have a decent phone app too
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GWG
I just, after Google Reader died, had trouble finding a replacement.
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GWG
I ended up with TT-RSS because it will never die
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GWG
As long as I host it
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: or just install any of <https://www.google.com/search?q=tt-rss>
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GWG
I have som
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GWG
Just noticed TT-RSS switched to a rolling release model and no longer releases stable versions
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GWG
No wonder it hasn't updated in a while
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kylewm
TT-RSS doesn't support push, iirc
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kylewm
it might be that it's supported but all those installations are misconfigured
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GWG
I considered going for a service, but couldn't find one I like
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kylewm
I take it back, ttrss at least nominally supports PuSH https://tt-rss.org/redmine/issues/251
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@benwerd
@gominokouhai No LJ / DW linking yet but that's interesting. Lots of others. Go to #indiewebcamp Edinburgh this weekend! @johnnieingram
(twtr.io/11tBtvg6Pdf)
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ben_thatmustbeme
someone want to send me a webmention, its successfully sending from myself
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ben_thatmustbeme
just want to test once again
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: What am I mentioning?
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ben_thatmustbeme
anything on my site
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply to a post
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ben_thatmustbeme
probably reply is best
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ben_thatmustbeme
doing some bug squashing on my site
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ben_thatmustbeme
webmention receiving all cleaned up now
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GWG
Posting
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GWG
Received?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i can always test from there
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GWG
I need to do some enhancements on Post Kinds
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GWG
I sometimes wonder why someone would want it over not
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ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, weird, when i submitted that webmention by curl, it worked fine
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gRegorLove
benwerd: Is your site set to UTC timezone, or do all Known instances convert comments to UTC? I just commented in the future, apparently. :) http://werd.io/2015/this-was-recommended-to-me-by-many-people-do-yourself
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GWG
I'll have to check my webmention sending code to see if it is working.
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ben_thatmustbeme
but thank you for the test comment
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benwerd
gRegorLove: that's a me thing, not a Known thing. Hello from the past!
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ben_thatmustbeme
took me a while to get time correction right
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ben_thatmustbeme
especially with mysql backend being so picky about always storing in UTC, but then not really paying attention to zone offsets when inputting
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@RichardFrench4
RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #poetrycollection love pain rejection melancholy selfactualization hope dreams aspirations indieauth http:/…
(twtr.io/11tEusm2iyx)
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aaronpk
whee hello from the plane
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GWG
aaronpk: Hello
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aaronpk
internet is too slow to load my facebook event, luckily I have it on my site too so I can see who rsvp'd from there :)
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aaronpk
srsly facebook is just an empty window from up here
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, GWG, you have no author set for your posts
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GWG
How so?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i look for "h-card *-author" in your posts
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GWG
I have an h-card on each page.
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aaronpk
this is what I mean by it would be useful to have a standard library in every language that implements things like http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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KartikPrabhu
if python there is mf2util
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aaronpk
are there docs on mf2util that I could read if I don't know python?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: hmm some docs in readme here: https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util
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@cazepeda
RT @craigmod: "2014 was a breakthrough year for IndieWebCamp and the IndieWeb movement." @t breaks it down: http://tantek.com/2015/201/b1/indiewebcamp-2014-year-review#iwc2014-chloe
(twtr.io/11tHh0tWU3C)
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
i wonder what it would take to define a rough spec and implement this in PHP so that it matches as close as possible
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ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, yeah looking at /authorship, no way to get your h-card
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: the spec is on /authorship no?
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: the algorithm is on /authorship, but i'm talking about the APIs of the functions
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: oh i see
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aaronpk
so the result of the functions would be the same across all the implementations
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aaronpk
for example, my PHP comment parser resturns slightly different properties thatn the python one https://github.com/indieweb/php-comments
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Try it now?
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GWG
Something looks wrong about the parsing of the page
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GWG
My homepage
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kylewm
aaronpk: I've thought that it might be better for mf2util to have a bunch of utility functions like get_first_hentry get_author rather than trying to completely abstract mf2 away from the user
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (-6) "/* TODO */ update todos"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
That'd also be useful, but I definitely think there's value in implementing the authorship and comment parsing algorithms too
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aaronpk
Maybe mf2util isn't the right name for those, but whatever
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KevinMarks
reader.kylewm.com works great on my phone
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KevinMarks
hm, wonder why urlopen is sulking about GWG's site
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KevinMarks
is appengine fetch() getting blocked by robots.txt?
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GWG
KevinMarks: I don't think I have one
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KartikPrabhu
!tell Jeena hfeed2atom updated with installation and usage instructions https://github.com/kartikprabhu/hfeed2atom
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
!tell tantek: to file a bug to Feedly I have to Join their G+ community. Not inclined to do that. Communites on G+ are a big source of noise
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
reads logs
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 5 hours, 57 minutes ago: this one ;-) https://github.com/aaronpk/mf2-test/blob/master/index.php#L57 but php has a built in one now in the json_encode function http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-21/line/1437521287015
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 57 minutes ago: to file a bug to Feedly I have to Join their G+ community. Not inclined to do that. Communites on G+ are a big source of noise http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-21/line/1437539264679
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: understandable
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: might do a screenshot and tag Feedly on the G+ POSSE
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tantek
makes sense
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KartikPrabhu
is now looking into hijax-ing his webmention form
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KartikPrabhu
idea: someone sends a webmention through form, do AJAX stuff and if webmention accpeted update with response and scroll to that to show "accepted"
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tantek
KartikParbhu you're basically describing a lighterweight form of comment/reply webactions that barnabywalters started working on
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KartikPrabhu
aah possibly
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@tvnweb
#IndieWebCamp 2014 Year in Review - This is a movement http://tantek.com/2015/201/b1/indiewebcamp-2014-year-review
(twtr.io/11td6ZjcibY)
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cweiske
I just read in tantek__'s indieweb 2014 review about edits. It seems that nobody has implemented it yet.
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cweiske
an issue that came into my mind: if what do you diff? the HTML?
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cweiske
what if one uses rST or markdown as base that gets rendered to html?
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cweiske
a diff to the HTML would not help much
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cweiske
and probably couldn't be merged automatically
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: always good to diff the rendered HTML
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cweiske
the rendered html may be minified to 1 line
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cweiske
a diff on it is ...hard
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KartikPrabhu
hmm then I don't really know
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cweiske
and I don't know how that would help with my "merge with a single click" issue
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KartikPrabhu
yeah /edit seems non-trivial
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gregorlove.com
edited /ProcessWire (+332) "Webmention plugin"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: how about comparing microformats properties?
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gRegorLove
Released my ProcessWire webmention code! The core sending/receiving/processing is pretty stable, but I'm still developing /Vouch support as well as an admin interface to view/approve incoming webmentions, so I'm considering it "beta" for now.
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gRegorLove
I'll work on the readme tomorrow and share it with the ProcessWire community. Maybe we'll attract some new indieweb fans.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove++ for new CMS webmention support
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 22 karma
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voxpelli
cweiske: I think diffing of individual mf-properties would be a bit too hard – rather just do edits as replacement of individual properties
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voxpelli
!tell KartikPrabhu If you have realtime updates of WebMentions then all you really need to do to deliver feedback is to have the submit happen over Ajax – the update will come back when it's ready, which might take a while
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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raw-text.io
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+322) "/* Maybes */"
(view diff)
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@Aodunaderasheed
RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #poetrycollection love pain rejection melancholy selfactualization hope dreams aspirations indieauth http:/…
(twtr.io/11tx24LwvKU)
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post-by-email
uploaded /File:20150722-112217.jpg "Uploaded via email by ICIP Conference 2015 <vit.ieee.conference*@*t.edu>"
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LanceyWork
has there been a discussion about how to handle shares with captions, such as tumblr reblogs or quoted retweets?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tumblr is mentions on /repost
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i don't think this has been completely discussed yet LanceyWork
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LanceyWork
i guess there's not really a lot to discuss
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ben_thatmustbeme
it seems like /repost is for the entire body with no commentary and /quotation is for only part of the body but with commentary
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LanceyWork
should they be distinct?
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is nothing of the entire body with commentary
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ben_thatmustbeme
Twitter keeps them seperate, correct?
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ben_thatmustbeme
weird, so with twitter its UI is repost, but adding commentary, but then it doesn't note it as a "retweet" on the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme
it doesn't look like you can see quote tweets at all
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LanceyWork
twitter keeps them separate, i think tumblr keeps them the same?
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ben_thatmustbeme
d/at all/at all from the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme
i would say that either could work, but we should probably work out which way is better
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think the distinction is really the focus of the post
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LanceyWork
i can't even find out how to get the quoted tweet from the api
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ben_thatmustbeme
do you want to focus on the original content (repost) or is your content primary with the original content just being part of it
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ben_thatmustbeme
LanceyWork: trial an error i guess
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ben_thatmustbeme
if you figure it out, do share
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LanceyWork
ok, i'll poke around and see what i can dig up
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LanceyWork
looks like they're either working on it, or have added it
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LanceyWork
yeah, it's already in
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LanceyWork
you can get the quoted tweet with "quoted_status_id"
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LanceyWork
or "quoted_status"
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LanceyWork
it looks like a quotation is intended to be different from a repost/share
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GWG
pfefferle: When you have a minute, I was hoping you could explain the organization.
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LanceyWork
ben_thatmustbeme, i'm using one of your tweets as an example of quoting a tweet
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pfefferle
GWG not really :)
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Loqi
pfefferle: snarfed left you a message 2 days, 10 hours ago: hi! looks like your semantic-linkbacks repos have diverged, and each one has useful new features (filters vs salmentions). mind picking one to be the single canonical repo, and then merge them? thanks in advance! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-19/line/1437355029097
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GWG
pfefferle: Don't really have the moment, or you can't explain what you have in mind?
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pfefferle
GWG I mean I can’t explain it ;)
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GWG
pfefferle: Umm...okay.
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pfefferle
!tell snarfed is the salmentations stuff functional? but you are true, we should merge them
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle
GWG thought it might be a good idea to upload some stuff/examples/hacks...
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lancey.space
uploaded /File:quoted_tweet_example.png "An example of a [[quotation]] on [[Twitter]]. The quoted tweet is embedded in the status update rather than being the main focus, and the user can provide an additional caption, making it different from a retweet."
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lancey.space
edited /quotation (+313) "/* Silo Examples */ Added Twitter's implementation of quoting tweets"
(view diff)
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GWG
pfefferle: Okay. Will let you upload first. Wasn't sure what you had in mind.
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pfefferle
!tell snarfed the code seems very hacky with a lot of debug logs
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle
GWG nothing special… upload what you think is ok, or ignore it ;)
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GWG
pfefferle: I have a coding standards issue to resolve first... https://travis-ci.org/dshanske/
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GWG
snarfed put me down the unit test path, I found testing for WordPress Coding Standards at the same time. I failed.
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pfefferle
GWG I started using the WordPress coding standard a while ago
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pfefferle
GWG porting plugins is very time heavy ;)
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pfefferle
GWG but there are a lot of good editor plugins to check the code every new save
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GWG
pfefferle: I know. But I figured, rather than you and snarfed telling me I put the wrong spacing or style, I figured I'd let an automated tester tell me
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GWG
Also sets up for those unit tests that snarfed was encouraging for Micropub.
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GWG
I started to set up all my projects to run them
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Loqi
slack/cdevroe: benwerd: Congrats on the Known push.
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Loqi
slack/cdevroe: gregorlove: Can you update your Twitter list with voxpelli’s list? <https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/a1066bfd0da75fb79c06>
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cdevroe
All that effort to get into Slack and I'm now finding it pretty difficult to "catch" up when I pop in in the morning. How do all of you "catch up"?
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cdevroe
(Slack doesn't do a great job of keeping your marker, for some reason. I've sent them bug reports about it but I haven't seen any changes.)
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GWG
cdevroe: I skim the log
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GWG
indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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cdevroe
KevinMarks++ for the I <? PHP tweet
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 134 karma
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cdevroe
GWG++ thanks
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Loqi
GWG has 111 karma
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cdevroe
GWG speaking to some locals here, we have a hookup to do a IWC in a trolley while it is moving from place to place. ;-)
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cdevroe
I'm thinking of switching from Safari to Firefox today. My only wish was that Firefox was "more of a Mac app" and played nicer on OS X. E.g. Dictionary look ups on words, etc.
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LanceyWork
could you build your own plugin to do that?
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cdevroe
LanceyWork: Unsure.
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cdevroe
I also wouldn't mind a copy of Firefox without Hello in it.
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cdevroe
Very odd to me that Firefox is becoming the bloatware that it once was built to replace.
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cdevroe
Being able to move a few years worth of History would be nice too. I'll have to look to see if there is an Add-on for that.
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petermolnar
good afternoon everyone
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cdevroe
hola petermolnar
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petermolnar
WordPress users: I could not sleep yesterday, so I wrote an audioscrobbler receiver ( server ) WordPress plugin in order to get rid of Last.fm in the future
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cdevroe
!tell aaronpk Your site's feeds are not discoverable by Feedly. FYI.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
cdevroe, he doesn't have any
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cdevroe
cweiske: really? I think I'm subscribed to his articles. But I was looking to subscribe to everything else too.
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cweiske
I was, too
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cweiske
articles.atom
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cweiske
the file is not there anymore
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cdevroe
cweiske: :(
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cweiske
I suggested he uses the hfeed2atom proxy now, but didn't do yet
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GWG
cdevroe: I used to operate trolleys at the Shoreline Trolley Museum. I'll Drive
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GWG
petermolnar: I will have a look
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GWG
I couldn't sleep so I configured Travis CI
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cdevroe
GWG: That would be awesome.
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petermolnar.eu
edited /scrobble (+460) "wordpress audioscrobbler"
(view diff)
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cdevroe
erinjo++ for shipping Known 0.8
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Loqi
erinjo has 11 karma
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cdevroe
benward++ for shipping known 0.8
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Loqi
benward has 4 karma
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rhiaro
s/benward/benwerd
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cdevroe
The IWC chat log is very nice. Who put it together?
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cweiske
aaronpk, IIRC
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cdevroe
aaronpk++ for the web chat log. It is great
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Loqi
aaronpk has 902 karma
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cdevroe
Wow! Firefox has a way to import Safari's history built right in. I hope this works because that would be amazing.
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cdevroe
I think it may be worth me finding a way to back up my web viewing history at some point.
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lancey.space
edited /repost (+16) "/* See Also */ Added [[quotation]] as a see also page"
(view diff)
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LanceyWork
has anyone thought about an infobox or other template on the wiki that we can apply to post type pages that displays general information such as the microformats syntax or silos that implement it?
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cdevroe
It worked! (re: firefox import)
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LanceyWork
firefox++
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Loqi
firefox has 1 karma
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cdevroe
LanceyWork: Hah! I didn't know that would work.
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cdevroe
Firefox++
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Loqi
Firefox has 2 karma
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Loqi
firefox has 3 karma
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@tinokremer
Dat is een handige #importer van social media naar je eigen site: http://www.freedom.io/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/11uNUxXM6h9)
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Jeena
firefox++
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Loqi
Jeena: KartikPrabhu left you a message 11 hours, 24 minutes ago: hfeed2atom updated with installation and usage instructions https://github.com/kartikprabhu/hfeed2atom http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-21/line/1437537673446
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Loqi
firefox has 4 karma
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kylewm
mapkyca++
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Loqi
mapkyca has 1 karma
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kylewm
that is an amazing PR!
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Jeena
!tell KartikPrabhu neat! I guess I have to do something with my notes markup so the title gets better recognized
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mapkyca
kylewm: Thanks :)
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kongaloosh.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (-352) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
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kongaloosh.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+352) "/* Remote Participants */"
(view diff)
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Kongaloosh
rhiaro: moved mysef. Gutted I can't be there!
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rhiaro
me too Kongaloosh, you've made so much awesome progress on your site
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Kongaloosh
Gee, thanks! :3
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Kongaloosh
I did break micropub, so I'm in the process of fixing that.
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Kongaloosh
I really like having stuff in one place
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rhiaro
Kongaloosh: I break micropub all the time :)
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rhiaro
Currently my endpoint is not cooperating with teacup and I have no idea why
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Jeena
!tell KartikPrabhu it seems that it doesn't follow u-url links to the full article in a feed?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
or am I marking it up wrongly with a u-url within the h-entry?
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aaronpk
oh the upload stopped because the computer went to sleep. shortly there will be a video up of the whole IWC demos!
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Loqi
aaronpk: cdevroe left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: Your site's feeds are not discoverable by Feedly. FYI. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437569759494
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tantek
!tell KartikPrabhu cont'd from last night re: comments box: the idea is that every "native" blog comment box turns into a simple indie reply authoring micropub client, so you can write a comment inline when viewing a post on someone's site, have it post to your site, then show up right there on the page you're viewing.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli
tantek: would the micropub client live in the browser then?
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tantek
!tell cweiske thanks for the heads-up re: /edit - only publishing example(s) so far. updated my post reference to /edit with a parenthetical note accordingly (like person-tag in 2014)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
voxpelli: oh that's a possibility too - was thinking the server you're viewing could be a micropub client that you give permissions to *only* post reply posts to your own site.
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voxpelli
tantek: rather cumbersome to do the indieauth dance on each and every blog one wants to comment on :/ I will probably just set up indie-config to point to a reply form in Quill
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kongaloosh.com
edited /IRC_People (+103) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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bear
it could be like subtome - if js is enabled it's a box that allows content input and uses your local store config to post micropub; if js not enabled it's a redirect to a service to enable comments
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tantek
voxpelli: agreed
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tantek
indie-config is a more elegant solution
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tantek
s/elegant/user-friendly
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bear
what is indie-config
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: indie-config is a more user-friendly solution
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Loqi
indie-config is a method of using protocol handlers and postmessage to setup your indie website to both notify the browser that it can handle webactions and then do so https://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config
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voxpelli
one could build an indie-config that has the config stored in localstorage if one wants it to work like subtome :)
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bear
I like the sound of indie-config
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bear
ah - but it requires javascript
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ben_thatmustbeme
also note mp-config which does not depend on url registration, but does require you say your url
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tantek
voxpelli: another possibility - can we use iframes to do indie-config cross-site for a commenting UI?
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cdevroe
bear: Looking at what this does I wouldn't say it _has_ to support JS. But it looks like it is currently implemented that way.
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cdevroe
Likely could be handled using POST requests if needed. With a callback to go back to the origin site.
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voxpelli
tantek: maybe, but a bit hesitent about phishing and mobile friendlyness – generaly on mobile reply forms are always a new page
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cdevroe
voxpelli: iframes? shudder
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cdevroe
Ooops.
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cdevroe
tantek: I meant.
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tantek
thinking the site showing you the post, just as it shows you webaction buttons, it could show you a cross-site iframe onto *Your* site for posting a reply
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kongaloosh.com
created /User:Kongaloosh.com (+154) "Created page with "= Kongaloosh = {{Kongaloosh}} == Background == Currently working on [http://kongaloosh.com link Kongaloosh]. === Doing (main itches) === === Todo ===""
(view diff)
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cdevroe
The "form" elements could simply post to a known endpoint on your site.
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tantek
that iframe would then have the text box and "post" button to post the reply
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cdevroe
domainname.com/webactionendpoint
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kongaloosh.com
edited /User:Kongaloosh.com (-5) "/* Background */"
(view diff)
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cdevroe
with a parameter for a "return URL"
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cdevroe
If JS doesn't exist.
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tantek
cdevroe - that would basically be the micropub solution I was mentioning before
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tantek
because then you need to do the whole auth dance to make sure it's ok to accept the form request
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cdevroe
tantek: Yeah.
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, but if you're not logged in to your site you may have to log in before and since it's an iframe you're not sure if the form you're seeing is being proxied through a phishing site or something :/
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KevinMarks
so where would it get the micropub token?
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tantek
voxpelli: no - it would only show up if you're already logged into your site
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tantek
which is still A LOT less work than having to login to EVERY SITE you want to comment on
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tantek
if you're not logged into your site, then all you see is the "Reply" button
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KevinMarks
the iframe would have cookies from your site already
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tantek
clicking that activates the whole flow
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, I guess one could make it safe, so it could be a possible evolution
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voxpelli
I wonder though how often silos have response forms inline versus on a separate page – especially on mobile
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cdevroe
Could do a time limited cookie that does a round trip from your personal domain to the site you're trying to comment on to create a cookie there. So... if you're not logged in: 1) click reply, 2) takes a trip to your personal domain, sets temp cookie 3) reroutes back to origin domain endpoint, sets temp cookie 4) write reply, click send 5) posts variables to personal site, saves
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voxpelli
I'm not sure inline is needed
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cdevroe
Only if the cookie hasn't yet expired.
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cdevroe
This way you have two cookies.
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cdevroe
Sort of like OAuth, I guess.
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cdevroe
token === token
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cdevroe
Tell me to hush if I'm way off.
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voxpelli
cdevroe: how indie-config currently works: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/10/1/webactions So it's mostly there, question is just if one could get it inlined easily I think
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tantek
voxpelli: advantage of inline iframe with text box is that it can be used to mimic existing "native" comment box UI
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Thanks for the context. I'd love to somehow help with this effort.
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Because that workflow is obviously less than ideal.
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KevinMarks
well, disqus and fb comments both use iframes afaik
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KevinMarks
so not outrageous to do that
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tantek
voxpelli, cdevroe getting "reply" user-flow as *easy* as possible, and at least as good as what silos do is *key* to making indie web interactions work well enough for people to actively switch.
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tantek
KevinMarks, precisely
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voxpelli
tantek: I'm thinking that eg. Twitter clients often do it on their own page, so that maybe one can get a "native" without it
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: true, hmm
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Discuss it. Twitter et. al typically "open a window" with their domain.
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cdevroe
*Disqus does it
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cdevroe
Autocorrect!
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voxpelli
main addition for both separate and iframed incie-config would be to specify a return URL – so the including page knows when the flow is done
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voxpelli
then it would mostly be a matter of responsive webdesign to adapt the page to fit within an iframe – and perhaps to set some expectations around the size of the iframe?
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KevinMarks
the including page should get a webmention to know it is done?
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cdevroe
voxpelli: It is possible to do stuff with XSS. S3 does it.
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: well, in the case of navigating to a full page the original page will have been closed
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voxpelli
and webmentions can have quite some latency
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voxpelli
eg. if my webmention endpoint gets flooded with mentions of the same domain I start throttling lookups
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cdevroe
away for lunch... I'll be following along with this.
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voxpelli
I correct myself regarding Twitter UI:s – apparently it's just Tweetbot that does it on a separate page
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tantek
voxpelli: makes sense - can you document what you're seeing in the Twitter App UIs? screenshots of the user flow?
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voxpelli
tantek: I guess, is there any place where we already have such UX/UI research at?
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voxpelli
(Would need to figure out how to upload files to the wiki as well :P)
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tantek
we typically document UX/UI of silos in the "Silo Examples" section of a page for a feature
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tantek
remembers he still needs to split reply vs. comment
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voxpelli
tantek: and which feature would you consider this to be part of? WebActions?
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tantek
voxpelli: good question! I think more general than that, /reply
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tantek
I'll edit a bit
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voxpelli
tantek: I don't think /reply has anything about the flow outside of ones own site right now
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voxpelli
and if one of the webactions results in an inline form, then the rest should as well I think
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voxpelli
but perhaps a bit too much to document all UI on one page :P
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tantek
it does have such flow, and that's part of the mixup
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tantek
it might deserve it's own page
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tantek
s/it's/its
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: it might deserve its own page
KevinMarks__, j12t, lewisnyman and snarfed joined the channel
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jeena.net
edited /code-of-conduct (+55) "/* Signed */ Jeena"
(view diff)
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kylewm
voxpelli: is there a mechanism for updating that list of twitter accounts periodically? i'd be interested in trying to wire up a little API app that creates a twitter list from it automatically
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+141) "start fixing this page to be primarily about reply than comment as the name of the standalone post, before the comment split, start clustering reply vs comment"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[comment]] to [[reply]] over redirect: reply is the post type, a comment is a reply syndicated into the context of the original"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /reply (+234) "reply comment distinction summary"
(view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli: here's a good place to start documenting reply / comment UI / UX in silos: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply#Silo_Examples
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voxpelli
kylewm: that should be doable, if nothing else then semi-automatically by me, but the service is built to run as a continuous crawler so I should put it up somewhere eventually anyhow
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voxpelli
tantek: cool, in the meanwhile, here's how one can hack iOS to do some nice replying there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPmSpD2jN4 ;)
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voxpelli
the rest might be interested as well in that video I just recorded
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voxpelli
Sharesheet reply -> Editor -> Micropub -> My site
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kylewm
voxpelli: I started playing with rel-me spider this morning, but got hung up on lack of node.js knowledge
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kylewm
it looks awesome though
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voxpelli
kylewm: if an app we're to continiously parse irc-people for new users and then call https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider#apilookup asking for more data about that user, then that would pretty much solve it – also supports webhooks for callbacks if the user hans't been crawled already
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kylewm
also the neo4j is just down the road from me :)
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voxpelli
kylewm: just down the road geographically speaking?
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kylewm
yeah, i left out "office" accidentally... there office is right down the road
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kylewm
their* sheesh
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voxpelli
Cool, their dev-HQ is basically just down the road for me :)
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voxpelli
Founded here in Malmö, Sweden
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voxpelli
kylewm: only thing I haven't really solved that well in the current version of relspider is the recrawling. Then I tried to look into strategies for that. Aaand I found a rabbit hole. A very deep such :)
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voxpelli
turns out recrawling is more or less an entire academic field :P
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tantek
yes. for a looooong time.
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voxpelli
kylewm: I can start a copy of the spider on heroku if you want to try and do some interactions with it?
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kylewm
voxpelli: thanks, that's ok though. I got pretty close to having it running on heroku myself, think I can get the rest of the way there when I have a bit of time
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voxpelli
kylewm: nice!
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bear
voxpelli - my dorman stats project parses irc-people nightly, I could add a push event to that process
#
bear
s/dorman//
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Loqi
bear meant to say: voxpelli - my  stats project parses irc-people nightly, I could add a push event to that process
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voxpelli
bear: cool, perhaps kylewm could add something to it that asks my spider for data and then adds any Twitter profiles found to a Twitter list?
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bear
sure
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voxpelli
or would that be feature creeping the indiestats project?
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bear
it's meant to be a nightly cron type project
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kylewm
actually twitter list could just be built right into indie stats
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bear
so feature creep is built in ;)
#
@kevinmarks
Hi @oliviataters if you're in Edinburgh, there is indieWebcamp this weekend http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh
(twtr.io/11uatpbZK4b)
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kylewm
is oliviataters back??
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KevinMarks__
She is and cooking vegetarian rice in Edinburgh
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rhiaro
senses mention of Edinburgh
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tantek
KevinMarks: What container standardisation convergence?
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Loqi
[bridgy] olivia taters replied '@kevinmarks Edinburgh will have melted &amp; will be a puddle! #bundlecrisis' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/oliviataters/status/623912728726491137)
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bear
the rise of Docker has created App Container and Open Container Project
#
@rhiaro
@benwerd @kevinmarks @oliviataters Indiewebcamp Edinburgh will definitely have vegan catering!
(twtr.io/11uc2SRUW0Z)
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tantek
huh - do their creators run them on their own websites?
#
Loqi
[bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@oliviataters I'm sure @rhiaro can help you find some good vegan rice in Edinburgh' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/623911729689276417)
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tantek
bear, what's the selfdogfood evaluation of those efforts?
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bear
each is being run by the orgs that created them
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@oliviataters
@rhiaro @benwerd @kevinmarks Indiewebcamp Edinburgh will honestly do anything to get high rated explosion of bullets in call of duty
(twtr.io/11uc5w8P7XC)
#
tantek
(not goint to bother asking "what is" to define them unless there is at least a hint of evidence of selfdogfooding)
#
bear
and most can be run on the common host OSs
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tantek
bear - "orgs"? meh. who are the creators - name names, and are they using them on their personal sites.
#
bear
oh - I think we are talking about two different things
#
bear
I thought you were asking about container tech that is used to host multiple OS images on a single host server
#
KevinMarks__
Sounds like a blog post series - do you eat it?
#
tantek
KevinMarks or what was that new maker directory silo?
#
KevinMarks__
Bear, I was hoping that all this container fuss might make it easier to spawn indieweb sites for people
#
bear
yes, it sure will
#
tantek
is this container fuss making it easier to span indieweb sites for the creators of the container fuss?
#
tantek
s/span/spawn
#
bear
we can create container images that allow folks to bootstrap a site type
#
KevinMarks__
Give how much crap known has to deal with in commodity hosting at the moment
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: is this container fuss making it easier to spawn indieweb sites for the creators of the container fuss?
#
@benwerd
Really wish I was back in the 'burgh for #indiewebcamp this weekend. I hear there's some kind of arts event at this time of year, too?
(twtr.io/11ucMsDF3bY)
#
bear
and then provide a web install portal that they can use to bootstrap it to their server or even laptop
#
bear
we are doing that for our own tech here so that devs deploy to local dev environment using containers and then they are uplifted to production
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tantek
KevinMarks, bear, has anyone bothered to make Known work on one of these container fuss things using their own website?
#
tantek
just seeing if anyone is even bothering before anyone gets their theoretical hopes up
#
benwerd
(I believe someone is using Docker for their website, yes, although I can't point to the domain off the top of my head)
#
bear
that is what I was trying back when I first tried known
#
bear
but it got derailed because of how known worked with Apache only (not the container's fault)
#
tantek
what is Docker?
#
Loqi
Docker provides a way to package an application into a "container" that includes all the dependencies it needs to run https://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
#
tantek
benwerd, running Known?
#
voxpelli
Heroku is basically built using container tech – and they have enabled one to install a copy of the live environment using docker I think
#
tantek
current Docker examples don't look promising: https://indiewebcamp.com/Docker#Indieweb_Examples
#
bret
i use heroku for my micropub endpoint, does that count?
#
bear
the docker registry lists 9 instances of WithKnown as Docker -- https://registry.hub.docker.com/search?q=known&searchfield=
#
bret
i dont interact with the container host at all though
#
bret
building servers and clusters is hard
#
bear
oops - 9 includes some false hits
#
tantek
I think such container fuss deserves more skepticism until someone presents selfdogfood evidence.
#
tantek
e.g. container fuss might be good for paid sysadmin tech, but not indieweb tech
#
bret
heroku is to docker as shared hosting php apps is to LAMP
#
rhiaro
If I didn't have a billion other things to do I'd definitely attempt to dockerise Known
#
benwerd
tantek: yes
#
voxpelli
I used Docker to easily get a development environment up for WordPress the other day
#
bear
I disagree - any non ops person can take a docker file and spin up a digital ocean server by using cut-n-paste
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tantek
bear - the lack of anyone doing so is why I disagree with that "any non ops person can"
#
bear
now the messy/fuss part (and this is where I completely agree with tantek) is to make that seemless for network/dns updates
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voxpelli
and locally one can easily do it with docker-swarm: https://www.docker.com/docker-swarm
#
bear
yea, I was circling back around to agreeing with you
#
tantek
voxpelli: perhaps add that to /Docker somewhere?
#
kylewm
would CoreOS make it seamless for updates?
#
tantek
what is CoreOS?
#
Loqi
CoreOS is a Linux distribution focused on large-scale deployments https://indiewebcamp.com/CoreOS
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kylewm
publish a new Known container -- it gets pushed to all CoreOS deployments automatically
#
bear
the host os is moot for seemless updates of the container environment
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bear
what does that is tools like kubernetes or fleet/swarm
#
Jeena
voxpelli that is an interesting idea, I don't use WordPress because my servers got owned 3 times because I forgot some old wordpress installation was still running somewhere, but if it is in a container then even if they find some bug in WordPress it still wouldn't compromise the whole server
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bear
kubernetes allows you to do rolling updates based on version info
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Docker (+123) "Added Heroku as a Docker container host"
(view diff)
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bear
the above conversation is why I like the indieweb community - polite but firm questions help keep things grounded
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi messages?
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: voxpelli left you a message 10 hours, 5 minutes ago: If you have realtime updates of WebMentions then all you really need to do to deliver feedback is to have the submit happen over Ajax – the update will come back when it's ready, which might take a while http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437552093574
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: Jeena left you a message 2 hours, 32 minutes ago: neat! I guess I have to do something with my notes markup so the title gets better recognized http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437579273899
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: Jeena left you a message 2 hours, 15 minutes ago: it seems that it doesn't follow u-url links to the full article in a feed? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437580334384
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 5 minutes ago: cont'd from last night re: comments box: the idea is that every "native" blog comment box turns into a simple indie reply authoring micropub client, so you can write a comment inline when viewing a post on someone's site, have it post to your site, then show up right there on the page you're viewing. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437580908416
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Loqi
who, me?
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ben_thatmustbeme
waits to see if Loqi responds "Couldn't be"
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KartikPrabhu
!tell Jeena, yes hfeed2atom does not follow the entries to permalink pages yet. But if there is no 'content' property it adds a "read full post" type link
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
Hmm... Edinburgh really snuck up on me
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Jeena
but I want to reat the full text in the feed reader not on the website ;)
#
Loqi
Jeena: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 minute ago: hfeed2atom does not follow the entries to permalink pages yet. But if there is no 'content' property it adds a "read full post" type link http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437588564521
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: of course that's for your reader to decide :) I don't want a h-feed to atom convertr to make that decision
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Jeena
and at least while having it as microformat you have the ability to check if there is a full post or not, once it is in the atom format that information is gone :)
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gRegorLove
ben_thatmustbeme: Just noticed all the rel in-reply-tos on your homepage. Is that intended for the stream?
#
KartikPrabhu
of course :) H-feed is more fidelity
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, gRegorLove those shouldn't be there, thanks
#
gRegorLove
Some other multi-rels too; author, bookmark
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: I agree with you. Just that, I don't think that feature belongs in a small lib like hfeed2atom. A reader maybe
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Jeena
hm I see
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KevinMarks__
Atom in principle distinguishes summary and content
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KevinMarks__
In practice not so much
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu we've been talking about this on the IWC in portland see http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/iwreader
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KartikPrabhu
yes. if no <content> only <summary> reader can fetch the <link>
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Docker (+659) "Documenting some more things"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
but actual feed readers based on atom don't use this distinction much at all. feedly does for a change
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KevinMarks__
Except rss doesn't have that distinction, and lots of atom code thus doesn't either
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KartikPrabhu
that is why I am happy with hfeed2atom not taking that responsibility. Just convert h-feed to Atom
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu but fetching the link would mean that you get the whole html website with header, sidebar and footer, etc. and then you still have to parse the microformats to get the content
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voxpelli
Jeena: I know some readers are already fetching the origin page and processing it for certain data...
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: hfeed2atom will also have to do that
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KartikPrabhu
for example, my article feed has only summary
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Jeena
which is obviously the wrong thing to do ;)
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KartikPrabhu
I threw an idea for partial h-feeds out there https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#partial_feeds
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KartikPrabhu
my homepage is very clean due to that. People read summary and only use their bandwidth if they want to read the article. Good UX
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Jeena
oh no, not in hfeeds, just in rss feeds I meant
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KartikPrabhu
same with RSS
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Jeena
I'm with you there see https://jeena.net/posts
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KartikPrabhu
i see feed readers as "my website somewhere else" so I don't see the distinction
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Jeena
I use RSS more often than not offline so I want to have the content right there not first when I look at the content, because then I often do not have access to the internet
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KartikPrabhu
yes. so it is the responsibility of your reader to do the fetching
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Jeena
for hfeed I'd agree, for RSS hm, difficult because you never get just the content but you have to implement something to extract the content from the whole HTML which is not a trivial thing to do
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KartikPrabhu
when a feed reader encounter what it thinks is a partial feed it can fetch the full thing for content (just like a human reader would for an hfeed)
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KartikPrabhu
on a website also you never get just the content
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Jeena
but you should
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rhiaro
petermolnar: remind me what that ssl cert provider that does 3 months free is?
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: no. on websites you get some UI things like navigations sidebars etc...
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Jeena
perhaps I'm just using RSS as a workaround for all the horrible webdesign out there so I don't need to see it
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aaronpk
oh man my node.js script for realtime comments keeps crashing with weird errors, can't wait to replace it with the nginx push-stream module
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Jeena
I even rather read my own content in the feed reader where everything has the perfect font/size padding, contrast, colors, etc.
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KartikPrabhu
well then you should redesign your site to have good font/size/padding, contrast and colors ;)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu++ :)
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 109 karma
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voxpelli
Jeena: "extract the content from the whole HTML" – experimental stuff @ https://github.com/bloglovin/metadataparser/tree/experimental-readability ;)
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tantek
Jeena, and then step 2, add built-in /reader support to your personal site.
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KartikPrabhu
I still read some websites in their original even though Feedly gets the full article
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Jeena
I could do that, KartikPrabhu but I can't redesign tanteks website ;)
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tantek
Jeena ^^^ I anticipated that ;)
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tantek
so that you use *your site* to read *my site*
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Jeena
yeah, the problem is still the offline thing
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tantek
same answer :D
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KartikPrabhu
doing those things with RSS is much more trouble that it is worth. an h-feed reader might be more suitable for that
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tantek
step 1: add offline support to *your site*
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tantek
step 2: add offline support the *reader* on *your site*
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Jeena
I don't know how!!1
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voxpelli
Jeena: Service workers
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tantek
then capture it as an itch on your User: page!
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tantek
Jeena per /wikify :)
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tantek
and as you learn, you can expand the itch
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tantek
until you do know how, have the time, and build it
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KartikPrabhu
!tell cdevroe, cweiske, I have to make a hfeed2atom proxy for aaronpk to use first :) On the list for tonight
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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I
?
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Loqi
I: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 3/9 at 11:30am: do have a tripod if needed
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Loqi
I: cweiske left you a message 3 weeks, 1 day ago: didn't check php-resque. I was happy with gearman. But now I just found out that I need scheduled tasks, which is something that neither gearman nor php-resque give me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-07/line/1428398114615
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Loqi
I: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 minute ago: have to make a hfeed2atom proxy for aaronpk to use first :) On the list for tonight http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437589737192
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tantek
lolol
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KartikPrabhu
oh did I mess it up
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tantek
all 3 of you did, or Loqi did, your choice
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gRegorLove
I, tantek
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jeena.net
edited /User:Jeena.net (-10) "/* working on */ personal itch"
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aaronpk
sometimes loqi's syntax is too forgiving
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voxpelli
Jeena: you might be interested in this demo: https://wiki-offline.jakearchibald.com/
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Jeena
tantek do you have an example of a offline website I could look at? I mean I want a nice UI which means I want to be able to start it on my phone from the home menu, or on the desktop as an application
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ben_thatmustbeme
lots of messages for "i"
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Loqi
gives Jeena a nice UI which means I want to be able to start it on my phone from the home menu
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KartikPrabhu
ok logs caught up
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tantek
what is offline?
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Loqi
offline is anytime you're not online and connected to the internet https://indiewebcamp.com/offline
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tantek
I believe aaronpk was experimenting with it - perhaps he can share and we can add to /offline
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: my only argument for your use-case is that, it is a feature for a feed reader
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aaronpk
all i've done so far is making the Quill editor work offline
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aaronpk
it only saves one post offline though, so not a full offline client
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aaronpk
but you can at least save your post, close the window, and come back to it later when you're online and post it
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KevinMarks
damn, missed hadley's keynote
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voxpelli
Jeena: this feels pretty exhaustive (but maybe some things has happened with the specs since then): http://jakearchibald.com/2014/offline-cookbook/#on-install-as-a-dependency
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Jeena
I wrote https://marketplace.firefox.com/app/feedmonkey/ which is a HTML/CSS/JS application which works offline. But I made it installable on the phone because I miss some detail in how to make it so it won't want to redownload the app from the internet when I get on the websige in the browser when I'm offline
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Jeena
looks interesting voxpelli
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KevinMarks
voxpelli: I think the new twist is getting notifications when the client isn't running
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: yeah, ServiceWorkers and the Push API should be able to handle that
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KevinMarks
right, though Chrome only for now until the new Firefox shows up
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snarfed
just to play devil's advocate, Jeena, using existing "legacy" feed readers that have existing mobile apps with good offline support (feedly, newsblur, etc) is *totally* reasonable
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snarfed
even for reading indie sites, since we have services and libs like hfeed2atom and granary that convert h-feed to rss/atom
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Loqi
snarfed: pfefferle left you a message 6 hours, 38 minutes ago: is the salmentations stuff functional? but you are true, we should merge them http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437566689866
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snarfed
i'd love to have a good mobile offline indie reader that supports h-feed…but making a good reader is a *big* project, especially with good mobile/offline support
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Loqi
snarfed: pfefferle left you a message 6 hours, 36 minutes ago: the code seems very hacky with a lot of debug logs http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437566855259
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snarfed
it'd be great to build one! but that's a really big ask, so i vote that you can be a good indieweb citizen and still use legacy readers for now
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Jeena
snarfed yeah unless you want to read aaronpks or tanteks stuff in those readers because hfeed2atom doesn't get the rest of the partial feeds :)
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tantek
aaronpk, Jeena definitely add both of those Quill / feedmonkey to the /offline page!!!
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: neither do traditional feed readers
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snarfed
Jeena: hmm. i get tantek's full posts in a legacy reader without using any lib or service
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Jeena
but feedmonkey is just RSS
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snarfed
aaronpk's articles too, but maybe you're right, not replies etc
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: has a secret Atom feed :P
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tantek
no it's discoverable!
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KartikPrabhu
oh then its OK :)
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tantek
and I put full content in it as much as it makes sense to
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tantek
I even try to put my "likes" into it
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Jeena
hehe ok I just took tantek and aaronpk as an example but I guess you get my point in theory ^^
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tantek
using AS/Atom - but I don't know of any "reader" that consumes them :/
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snarfed
Jeena: eh forget theory, it's all about practice. :P in practice the vast majority of indieweb sites i want to follow still publish legacy feeds
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snarfed
…and the rest will be solved soon with KartikPrabhu's service!
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: Jeena is saying that hfeed2atom does not fetch the full content for you. which is fine for me, since the original h-feed doesn't have it anyway
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tantek
what's the best way to tell how many times someone "reads" one of your posts in a legacy feed reader? per post 1px gif bugs that are only in the Atom versions?
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aaronpk
that would be interesting
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tantek
not intentionally funny!
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KartikPrabhu
errr what!?
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voxpelli
tantek: you can get pretty reliable info on the subscriber count at least
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KevinMarks
there's always unmung.com
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tantek
voxpelli: that's not as interesting IMO
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: sure. i concede any detail like that. hfeed2atom is still way young and early yet
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snarfed
my point is that "build a pure indieweb solution" is a good way to get functionality, but definitely not the *only acceptable* way, especially for stuff like mobile offline readers that are very substantial projects
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KevinMarks
though I shouls add some proper caching
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aaronpk
more subtle would be to use a different image proxy for images in your posts for the html vs atom feeds
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: sure.
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tantek
voxpelli: more interesting is, how many times was the post actually displayed in a *feed reader* (as a rough approximate for # of times actually read by someone using a feed reader)
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tantek
aaronpk - that's kind of what I said
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tantek
"that are only in the Atom versions?"
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KevinMarks
snarfed, do you have an diea why I get 403 for some https url swith appengine?
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KartikPrabhu
err I have been told my "sure" comes off as sarcastic, but I blame text-only communications
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aaronpk
yes but i'm talking about not injecting fake images
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tantek
ooooh
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voxpelli
tantek: you won't be able to tell that – eg. Bloglovin caches all images at their own proxy and wouldn't leak such information to you
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tantek
you could do that with the author image
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snarfed
403? that should only be generated by the actual end server
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tantek
?view=atom
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tantek
example.jpg?view=atom
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aaronpk
utm_source=atom lolol
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tantek
example.jpg?view=atom&postid=XYZ123 etc.
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aaronpk
author image is a good idea tho!
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KevinMarks
ah, so do i need to change useragent or something?
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Jeena
a couple of years ago I fucked up my awstats setup and never fixed it, so now I don't know if there is anyone reading my stuff and I feel free!
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voxpelli
just such a thing like https requires any web based feed reader on https to load all posts through some kind of proxy – and if you do, then some kind of cache makes sense as well
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tantek
Jeena, the purpose for me would be to see how many "readers" would I lose by dropping Atom
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KevinMarks
that reminds me, I need to add a utm_ rewriter to my link parsing
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voxpelli
s/posts/post images/
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Loqi
voxpelli meant to say: just such a thing like https requires any web based feed reader on https to load all post images through some kind of proxy – and if you do, then some kind of cache makes sense as well
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tantek
and to see if there is any up/downward trend of people viewing my posts via Atom
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KartikPrabhu
knows exactly how many readers he loses by dropping Atom, maybe 2/3 and he might have already lost them because Feedly defaults to RSS which is now dropped!
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Jeena
I'm just being silly, I know that there are good reasons for stats
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snarfed
KevinMarks: maybe! try it. hard to say for sure, it'd take some digging. all i can say is it's coming from the servers, not caused by app engine
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KevinMarks
maybe I'm seeing wordpress blocking python's default useragent as a naive anti-bot tactic
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KevinMarks
I though it might be a robots.txt thing with fetch() using the google crawler
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@craigmod
Sadly have to turn off open DMs from people I don't follow — getting spammed.
(twtr.io/11uVRuiNYbG)
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@RudigerMeyer
tweet 22 Jul, 2015 · 5:42 pm Testing tweeting from my site via brid.gy (rdgr.me u/bexd2j) #indieweb
(twtr.io/11uhymJPKtb)
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tantek
Bridgy++
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Loqi
Bridgy has 18 karma
#
gRegorLove
bridgy++
#
Loqi
bridgy has 19 karma
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KartikPrabhu
bridgy++ because bridgy deserves more
#
Loqi
bridgy has 20 karma
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snarfed
aww thanks all
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gRegorLove
Speaking of Bridgy, did it recently add UTC dt-published based on the time received, for likes and reposts?
#
KevinMarks
ooh, I cna se hadley just by going back int he timeline http://www.oscon.com/open-source-2015 at 15:45
#
KevinMarks
hadleybeeman++
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Loqi
hadleybeeman has 1 karma
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tantek
timetravel++
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Loqi
too much karma!
#
@kartik_prabhu
@RudigerMeyer Looks like it worked! So, here’s a reply from my site! #indieweb
(twtr.io/11uiFdEAUks)
#
KevinMarks
she gave the openign keynote at OSCON this morning
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /2015/Demos (+722) "add youtube video for demos!"
(view diff)
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snarfed
gRegorLove: not recently that i know of
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gRegorLove
Sorry, not likes. reposts and comments.
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snarfed
still no
#
snarfed
it may be there, but it wouldn't be new, unless maybe the underlying api data changed. which is unlikely
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snarfed
is off, back in an hr
#
gRegorLove
I think my old webmention code was converting to local time. New plugin doesn't do that yet.
#
jonnybarnes
hey peeps, can someone let me “send” them a webmention?
#
jonnybarnes
though it actually appear to come from jbl5.dev
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gRegorLove
jonnybarnes: I'll allow it. ;)
#
jonnybarnes
so you'd have to like just delete the mention
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tantek
gRegorLove++
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 23 karma
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jonnybarnes
thanks gRegorLove
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gRegorLove
No wm are displayed publicly currently
#
kylewm
jonnybarnes: nobody will be able to retrieve/display it if it's coming from a dev site, that's ok?
#
gRegorLove
I can confirm once I get it though
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jonnybarnes
kylewm, yeah, changing my webmentions code so its no longer inline but asynced to a queue, want to test it before Imake it public
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jonnybarnes
erm, hopefully that's sent gRegorLove
#
jonnybarnes
or maybe not
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KevinMarks
retro noterliving hadley
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gRegorLove
jonnybarnes: got it!
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jonnybarnes
hmmm, well at least the queue part works :D
#
jonnybarnes
just need to know why the in-rpely-to value in my notes db is null
#
jonnybarnes
gRegorLove, can I try again?
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gRegorLove
Go for it
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gRegorLove
Same source URL?
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jonnybarnes
did you get it?
#
jonnybarnes
should be different
#
jonnybarnes
excellent, I think thats all the kinks ironed out
#
KevinMarks
the other way to test is to make a cheeky withknown site and WM it
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jonnybarnes
cheeky? don't say that to a brit
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KevinMarks
I'm 'avin a larf mate
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jonnybarnes
y'alrite wobbly'ed
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@kevinmarks
@palafo @anildash @owillis @fmanjoo @katephillips you could support micropub in your cms, then there's a choice of editing tools #indieweb
(twtr.io/11upHwPZbmw)
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kylewm
then we just need MS Word to Micropub and fmanjoo will be set
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aaronpk
oh man
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KartikPrabhu
oh boy! KevinMarks got himself into trouble again! :P
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+28) "archived Balanced Payments"
(view diff)
#
loqi.me
created /sixapart (+123) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by KevinMarks"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+99) "archived Yahoo Maps, noted maps.yahoo.com redirect"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
haha "...and despite the occasional call from confused investors, it isn't a startup"
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tantek
sure, add it
#
gRegorLove
"That's all. We're not going to give you any rubbish about our incredible journey."
#
aaronpk
and hey the two founders linked to their websites before their twitter accounts
#
KevinMarks
Tom is great
#
KevinMarks
don't think I've met Matt
#
gregorlove.com
moved /sixapart to /Six_Apart "canonical name"
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tantek
huh, SixApart's post/page about Pownce now 404s also http://www.sixapart.com/pownce
#
tantek
and post about why they are pursuing the Atom (then "Echo") effort: http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2003/06/why-we-need-ech.html
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tantek
whoa Six Apart got re-exported as a brand and became an independent Japanese company! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Apart#2011
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snarfed
mmm brand necrophilia
#
fran.io
edited /2015/Edinburgh (+112) "/* Co-located events */ Add Jazz Festival - better late than never"
(view diff)
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#
tantek
snarfed++ for the jwz reference
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Loqi
snarfed has 119 karma
#
@RudigerMeyer
@kartik_prabhu For some reason my site isn’t sending webmentions automatically – still something to figure out there (rdgr.me u/l73fbz)
(twtr.io/11uw4FiX61b)
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snarfed
hah, didn't know it was a reference
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snarfed
nothing new under the sun i guess
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snarfed
jwz++ regardless
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Loqi
jwz has 1 karma
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tantek
snarfed: here you go (originator of the phrase AFAIK) http://www.jwz.org/blog/2003/10/brand-necrophilia/
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jonnybarnes
I'm trying out twitter’s embedded tweets, and I can't center them
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aaronpk
kind of goes to show that a spec that leaves too many ways of doing things ends up frustrating people into making a new spec
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tantek
or a spec that is too buggy and the editor refuses to fix will be replaced by another spec
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@TapestryMaker
Known 0.8 released -- kudos to Erin Jo, Ben, and the @withknown community! #indieweb
(twtr.io/11v0oi72dWQ)
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Loqi
[mention] Craig Pilcher posted 'The Indie Web 2 min read I have been griping about leaving F...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://pilch.me/2014/the-indie-web)
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aaronpk
speaking of which, we should probably make sure we have clear specs for both publishing and consuming h-feed, h-entry, because right now it's kind of confusing
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tantek
let's start with documentation of the issues so we can make sure they're being addressed - i.e. anything you see as a source of "confusion
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aaronpk
most of the confusion is around finding the author of an h-entry or a feed
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tantek
sounds like issues to note in /authorship
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aaronpk
another one is something Jeena and I talked about at IWC, is not wanting to publish a feed on your home page, but linking to one or more feeds instead
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tantek
feed discovery
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tantek
yes - it's good that you two were talking about real world (personal) use-cases in that conversation
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tantek
what is feed discovery?
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tantek
feed discovery is a way to, given someone's home page, discover their feed or feeds that they publish.
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loqi.me
created /feed_discovery (+129) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437603992063 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /feed_discovery (+720) "expand with How to, simple version, brainstorming, off home feeds, see also"
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gRegorLove
I have an h-feed on my notes page and the main navigation links to it with rel="feed"
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gRegorLove
I still need to add a p-name and u-url to that h-feed though
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tantek
gRegorLove: sounds like you could add an "IndieWeb Examples" section for that brainstorm then ;)
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dhalgren
hi!
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tantek
gRegorLove: yes!
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tantek
welcome dhalgren
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gRegorLove
I'll put it on /h-feed too
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tantek
gRegorLove: indeed you should add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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dhalgren
random q: I see quite a lot of references to IndieWeb tech in the w3c's social web process. how is that relationship expected to go? I mean, will there be eventual interoperability with current oStatus, pump.io etc networks or what exactly is the roadmap/vision here?
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dhalgren
or are they just mining these protocols for ideas?
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gregorlove.com
edited /h-feed (+224) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me"
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KevinMarks
interoperability is good; it's often best done as translation shims
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KevinMarks
we have quite a few of those already fro silos that turn them into indieweb friendly formats
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gregorlove.com
edited /h-feed (+19) "/* gRegor Morrill */"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2015/Indieweb_Reader (+3287) "copy from etherpad"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /feed_discovery (+25) "/* Off home feeds */ link to IWC session"
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tantek
dhalgren - this is where active development of these protocols and formats is happening
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tantek
there's no current work on oStatus
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tantek
pump.io is both an implementation and a proposal and is being discussed primarily in the Social Web WG at this point
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tantek
the "vision" here is best explained by indiewebcamp.com home page
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gregorlove.com
edited /feed_discovery (+80) "/* Off home feeds */ Bridgy follows rel="feed""
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tantek
regarding roadmap, what is roadmap
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Loqi
Typical use of the term roadmap does not refer to actual roads, maps, or maps of roads - instead, keep a personal priority ordered list of what you're specifically Working On, and for unsorted or vague desires, add them to an unordered Itches list, on your User page or your project's page https://indiewebcamp.com/roadmap
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tantek
dhalgren, thus the roadmap question for you is, what's your personal site, and what's the very next thing you want to improve on it?
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tantek
what is the vision?
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tantek
vision is /
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loqi.me
created /vision (+38) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437605371970 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /vision (-23) "Redirected page to [[/]]"
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dhalgren
tantek: thx! I saw a gnu mediagoblin lecture yesterday, that's how I found these Social Web WG pages. I was simply plesently surprised by the apparent awareness of this community there; thought the federated social webs were going a rather separate way from the DIY spirit here.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /vision (+7) "Redirected page to [[Main Page]]"
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tantek
dhalgren - indeed many things are connecting!
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tantek
dhalgren: in particular, regarding federated social webs, the indieweb community is at this point leading the cutting edge charge, per our recent passing of SWAT0 with 3 different implementations: http://tantek.com/2015/193/t2/user-flow-permalinks-indieweb-swat0
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tantek
we're hoping to get out of the current /monoculture trap that so many other implementations / federated social webs have fallen into
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tantek
s/federated social webs/federated social web attempts
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: we're hoping to get out of the current /monoculture trap that so many other implementations / federated social web attempts have fallen into
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tantek
or even avoid
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tantek
whether or not any particular monoculture can be patched to federated with other implementation is a good question. we can submit pull requests, and sometimes document attempts to do so, but so far progress with connecting /monoculture communities/efforts has been slow
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tantek
s/federated/federate
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: whether or not any particular monoculture can be patched to federate with other implementation is a good question. we can submit pull requests, and sometimes document attempts to do so, but so far progress with connecting /monoculture communities/efforts has been slow
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dhalgren
indeed. though I see there really are tens of thousands of people that are free of silos using one of those federated social webs today, according to some partial census I found; that's alot of early adopters; I gather this community is much smaller, even though I'd have a far easier time implementing and interoperating with the IndieWeb.
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dhalgren
well my own project, delayed by a babylon5 binge and moving to another place, exists on scratches of paper at this point -- I must correct that this summer :)
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GWG
Evening
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+68) "summary dfn"
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tantek
dhalgren - we can very much help you correct that, incrementally, step by step
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jeena.net
edited /IRC_People (+29) "/* Nicknames */ Jeena added avatar"
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tantek
regarding the "tens of thousands of people that are free of silos using one of those federated social webs" - they're free as much as leaky lifeboats leaving the Titanic are "free" of an iceberg
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dhalgren
heehehe
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GWG
dhalgren: What is your project?
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GWG
tantek: I will have you know there was plenty of room in some of the those lifeboats
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tantek
dhalgren - the problem being that each of those supposed "federated social webs" is its own monoculture due to being single-implementation based, which puts a lot of constraints / limitations on their growth / interop
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tantek
they're essentially disconnected islands, not a federation. and as long as that continues to be true, they will not be a practical alternative to large corporate silos.
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tantek
babylon5++
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Loqi
babylon5 has 1 karma
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tantek
dhalgren: do you have a personal site currently? even a domain name with one page?
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tantek
and you have hit the proverbial nail on the head with "I'd have a far easier time implementing and interoperating with the IndieWeb" <-- that is the key
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tantek
lowering the barrier to independent hackability, empowering people to interoperate without having to depend on a singular implementation
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dhalgren
GWG: nothing too fancy, but improving my haskell skills basically, and publishing the results as a reusable library and a blog (I've got too many writings I liked that ended up only as a deeply nested obscure reddit comment) - a statically generated blog skeleton using hakyll (that part I have but the code is terrible, was trying some idioms I didn't understand) , with frontend js using functional reactive programming (reflex lib prob
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dhalgren
and amicroservice backend
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tantek
what is Haskell?
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tantek
What is Reddit?
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Loqi
Reddit is a link aggregator and bulletin board site where community members may submit links and text posts, vote on the submitted entries, and post comments on them https://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit
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tantek
What is Hakyll?
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tantek.com
edited /Reddit (+111) "add How to export stub"
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dhalgren
that is, a backend for comments at least. Haskell is a pure functional programming language. I find it really elegant. Hakyll is a static site generator in it.
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tantek
Haskell is a pure functional programming [[language]].
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loqi.me
created /Haskell (+81) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437606189125 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek
Hakyll is a [[static site generator]] written in [[Haskell]].
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loqi.me
created /Hakyll (+88) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437606208198 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek
any of you Reddit users have any idea about how to export your stuff from Reddit? even a link? or brainstorm suggestions? please add to: https://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit#How_to_export
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tantek.com
edited /language (+14) "Haskell"
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tantek.com
edited /Haskell (+29) "see also Hakyll"
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dhalgren
yeah I did find a way to export when looking, haven't scripted it to page back through history but its simple
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dhalgren
I'll document it and link it to the site while writing that code
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tantek
thank you dhalgren, your offered knowledge has been assimilated into the wiki. /Haskell /Hakyll
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tantek
try asking "what is" questions to query
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dhalgren
you guys do everything from irc, cool :)
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GWG
dhalgren: Not everything, but it is the center of the community
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GWG
Like a clubhouse
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gregorlove.com
edited /Reddit (+275) "/* How to export */ API doc link"
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gRegorLove
No firsthand experience, but appears like the Reddit API will allow getting most things out. ^
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dhalgren
yy, I already have a few pages of myown comments in json on disk, it's nice
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dhalgren
re domain name, I'll take the official one my government is offering. no anonymity but first.last.from.hr , being free & secure (linked to personal ID). could out me if someone searches for my reddit profile on the basis of those sentences, but I figure its no longer such a big deal (hope?)
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KevinMarks
how does that work if 2 of you have the same name?
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tantek
same given and family names?
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dhalgren
you can choose an extra fragment to disambiguate: first.last.extra.from.hr
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tantek
KevinMarks, also I believe William Gibson solved this problem in Neuromancer
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gregorlove.com
edited /Reddit (+128) "/* Criticism */"
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dhalgren
sry, its first-last-extra actually, not w .
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KevinMarks
ah, thats simpler in DNS then
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tantek.com
edited /roadmap (+111) "better, more positive call to action for any roadmap queries"
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tantek.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+79) "2014 Craig Pilcher The Indie Web"
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aaronpk
tantek: not sure if you saw earlier, but I posted the hack day demo videos and linked to each person's start time under their name! http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos#Portland_Hack_Day_Demos
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tantek.com
edited /SWAT0 (+40) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ itemize citations"
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tantek
aaronpk WHOA
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tantek.com
edited /2015/Demos (+167) "/* Tantek */ note update to comments markup after demo, with link to latest infio"
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