#indiewebcamp 2015-07-31

2015-07-31 UTC
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aaronpk
what good is an SVG if it references a non-standard font
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KevinMarks__
you can annotate the text lines os they are the same length
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aaronpk
i don't know what tat means
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aaronpk
i'm not making this svg, a tool is
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tantek
has anyone tried creating a tumblr account with a domain name as the name / "subdomain" ?
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KevinMarks__
well, slap the tool vendor to mark up the text runs
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tantek
tries
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tantek
creating an account just for POSSEing
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KevinMarks__
oh, the SVG's gone
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aaronparecki.com
edited /private-webmention (+56) "add sequence diagram"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
I was going to look
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aaronpk
you can make it again by pasting the data from here http://indiewebcamp.com/File:private-webmention-sequence-diagram.png
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tantek
answer is no from Tumblr.com/register when you click the "Sign up" button: "Letters, numbers, and dashes only please. This is serious business."
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aaronpk
supporting "tantek.com" as a subdomain of "tumblr.com" means they have to do more crazy things with DNS
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tantek
now trying tantek-com
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tantek
that seems to ahve been accepted
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aaronpk
whoa I don't understand what's going on there
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aaronpk
why are there so many properties in the parsed result that aren't on the page?
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aaronpk
is the CamelCase thing a haskell thing?
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myfreeweb
i could've customized it
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myfreeweb
but i didn't
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tantek
that's not really compatible since JSON is case-sensitive
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tantek
as are class names
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myfreeweb
it's not intended to be compatible
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tantek
caseness from the class names is supposed to be preserved
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aaronpk
it looks like the parser has knowledge of vocabulary, given that things like "Anniversary" are appearing on the h-card even though it's not in the HTML
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myfreeweb
the parser parses into Haskell types
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myfreeweb
then Aeson, a JSON library, serializes into JSON
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tantek
there's no special types involved, just strings
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aaronpk
!tell elf-pavlik I finished the sequence diagram! Let me know if that looks right to you, I was kind of rushed http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks__
hm, thats more of an mf1 approach
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myfreeweb
mf1 approach?
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KevinMarks__
you've hardcoded known properties of certain types
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myfreeweb
that's a haskell approach :)
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myfreeweb
key-value maps are not idiomatic haskell
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KevinMarks__
not going to pass many test then
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myfreeweb
the parser doesn't know about JSON at all
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tantek
ok so I set this up, now I just have to figure out how to POSSE likes/reposts/replies to Tumblr posts through it into Tumblr: http://tantek-com.tumblr.com/
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myfreeweb
i might add custom properties, but that's not what i need right now
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KevinMarks__
it'll walk you through, then you can micropub to it
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KevinMarks__
or maybe kyle got magic proxying working
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tantek
I'd prefer to do it simpler via webmention
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tantek
the way Bridgy Publish works
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+834) "/* Working On */ POSSE responses to Tumblr posts"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
aaronpk: this looks like it supports the same syntax but renders better: https://github.com/knsv/mermaid
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kylewm
you can't actually publish native likes/reposts/etc. through silo.pub right now... even if you u-like-of a tumblr post, it still publishes a note with mf2 markup in it
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tantek
good to know
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ben_thatmustbeme
Can bridgy publish do likes?
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tantek
that's how I POSSE my likes of tweets
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ben_thatmustbeme
As in like tweets?
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ben_thatmustbeme
I need to do that in mptweet
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+246) "/* POSSE responses to Tumblr posts */ note silo.pub caveat"
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ben_thatmustbeme
And images etc
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kylewm
I didn't really see the point of micropubbing tumblr-specific responses *to tumblr*, not sure why anyone would use it like that
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kylewm
but if someone does want to , I'm more than happy to add it
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kylewm
tantek: what was the link http://pronoun.is/they in reference to?
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tantek
URL on @myfreeweb's Twitter profile
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tantek
a whole site for linking to preferred pronouns, where the page at that URL shows you how to use that preferred pronoun!
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KevinMarks__
so you could do rel-pronoun ?
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tantek
or even h-* since it has a name and URL
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KevinMarks__
they have 5 variants
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tantek
I think it's on github and they accept pull requests
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KevinMarks
That pronoun site is by @morganastra, source of the object oriented quote
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tantek
kylewm better to add it to Bridgy Publish https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/272 instead of silo.pub
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tantek
tumblr-specific responses *to tumblr*, that is
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kylewm
would have to add publish to tumblr first
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kylewm
which is a pretty big job
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kylewm
but yeah, i agree that would make more sense
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tantek
kylewm: I think even just supporting responses to Tumblr would be a good incremental and useful step
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tantek
before the massive effort it would take to support POSSEing the 7 native top level post types of Tumblr
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+835) "/* POSSE Details */ note details of POSSEing likes to Twitter, separate section for FB, more details"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (-3) "/* POSSE Details */ -of"
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tantek
kylewm: added a few incremental steps in case you get interested: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/272#issuecomment-126536742
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tantek
I'll start documenting examples of my manual POSSEing of response to Tumblr to show some real-world-ness at least.
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tantek
s/response/responses
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: I'll start documenting examples of my manual POSSEing of responses to Tumblr to show some real-world-ness at least.
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anm
m
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KevinMarks
Looks like app.net has hfeed but no timestamps https://alpha.app.net/riverfold
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aaronpk
not sure how much app.net is still in development, but they would probably accept a PR to fix their microformats
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[aaronpk]
hah gregorlove it got translated back in slack #indiewebcamp tantek #indiewebcamp
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aaronpk
oops hahaha
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tantek
agreed - it's likely worth sending pull requests to app.net
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+387) "/* POSSE Favorites of Tumblr posts */ add IndieWeb example of like of a Tumblr post, and POSSE liking of it natively on Tumblr"
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@papapelz
FB-Import zum Blog tut wieder. Jedenfalls fast vollständig. Jetzt noch indieweb-Imports von Insta als Bild, nicht Gallery, dann bin ich :))
(twitter.com/_/status/626971632138125313)
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tantek
BTW Tumblr's "Dashboard" also has an item called "inbox" which has nothing to do with reading your social stream of who you follow etc.
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tantek
does anyone know how Tumblr makes slugs?
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tantek
BTW Tumblr post types (UI that they present for users to choose from) Text, Photo, Quote, Link, Chat, Audio, Video
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tantek
hmm - looks like you can reverse engineer the name/title of a post (or at least partially thereof) from the slug on a Tumblr post - it doesn't seem to be editable
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tantek
I mean editable separately from the source content like name/title
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tantek
text copy review? how understandable is the description here? http://tantek-com.tumblr.com/
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tantek
tried to provide explanation for what that Tumblr is for, and a hook for learning more about IndieWeb
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tantek
who here has experience with Tumblr? anyone?
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tantek
(I mean both reading and posting a lot to)
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tantek
(just as a user)
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tantek
it's a repost of a repost (both with comments)
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tantek
and the slug includes the repost source!
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tantek
however if you click through to the previous repost chain, only the previous repost http://cloud-kitten.tumblr.com/post/103017083270/holyshmidt-time-lapse-photo-of-hundreds-of is still there
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tantek
the next one (which appears to be the original) looks like it was actually deleted, and does not show the source
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tantek
thus when you repost something on Tumblr, it gets copied completely
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tantek
in contrast to Twitter, where retweets of a deleted tweet themselves disappear!
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KevinMarks__
well retweets get their own url
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KevinMarks__
it just redirects
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: copy look good. seems I have to login to view "Tumblr posts liked by tantek.com."
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@papapelz
Wenn die Techie-Fummelei im Blog n neuen Daddy (@schnarfed) in der TL auftut...: https://snarfed.org/2015-06-04_what-doesnt-kill-my-baby #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/626985774551011328)
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endi
wow just watched SWAT0 video on TWIG via @KevinMarks :) well done all!
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KevinMarks__
thanks endi
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KevinMarks__
now we need to get more of us abel to play the different roles in it
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Jeena
KevinMarks__ the thing I still lack is the whole reader thing which is huge and I want to tackle it with a native android app but it will take a lot of time before it works
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KevinMarks__
you can use reader.kylewm.com if you support micropub...
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Jeena
yeah I can but if we only have one implementation of a reader what is the point ;)
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KevinMarks__
It's a scaffolding thing; get into the reading habit before you build your own.
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Jeena
but it is really good to test my other stuff, I just yesterday implemented likes, perhaps I should test it with this reader
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KevinMarks__
yes, exactly
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KevinMarks__
it's a micropub client as well...
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Jeena
yeah, that is the cool thing about it
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Jeena
oh hehe I should add the like stuff to my micropub backend before testing it ^^
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Jeena
Jesus Christ, it is an amazing feeling to see something KevinMarks__ answers to werd.io in this reader and then to answer myself on this withing this reader and it gets posted automatically on my site and it shows up on Kevins website, and nothing crashes https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4119/4876696414_d3f62d18be_z.jpg
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KevinMarks__
I said ti is liek Penn and teller
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Jeena
yeah :D
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KevinMarks__
you see it done, then you have to look again to see how much crawling through tubes is going on underneath
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Jeena
haha yeah, it is unbelievable that this can work at all
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KevinMarks__
if we can get the reply contexts, cites and salmentions wired up, we really do have distributed twitter
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KevinMarks__
http://known.kevinmarks.com is mostly posts from woodwind now
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Jeena
is Woodwind your own baby?
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KevinMarks__
woodwind is reader.kylewm.com
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Jeena
yeah I mean the software behind it, is it you who is writing it?
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Jeena
oh I think I found it on github
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KevinMarks__
no it's kylewm
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Jeena
ah haha I'm sorry obviously, I should have looked at the domain
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endi
watching the reader bit, looks awesome :)
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Jeena
it's such a pitty it didn't work on live TV, hehe you should retry it next time ;)
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Jeena
but as a scripted demo :-p
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tantek
Jeena you can also use monocle.p3k.io as a micropub enabled reader!
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tantek
the design/styling in monocle is really slick
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tantek
looks great on mobile etc.
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@kevinmarks
@BenedictEvans share on twitter as they are relevant to ongoing conversations. Repost on medium for their discussion http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
(twitter.com/_/status/626999937394348032)
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tantek
!tell KartikPrabhu thanks for the "requires login" reminder - just added a parenthetical accordingly to the copy text to give a heads-up to viewers.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
yeah, Twitter did really a good job with Botstrap, it made all the engineer stuff which was always dreadfull to please the eye so people wouldn't just run away but would at least play with it :D
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Jeena
hm there is one not so cool thing we will need to adress some time in the future, just so we're better than the RSS community. We need a way to share the subscription lists between readers
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Jeena
and a way for them to update the list
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tantek
was just looking at that on Tumblr
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Jeena
it is neat that monocle gets the big picture from the full post, but it is weird that it shows all the text from the page as the title https://jeena.net/s/latest.png
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tantek
heh - that's a p-name issue I think aaronpk would say
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KevinMarks__
except bootstrap was crap at mobile and still feels kludgy
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KevinMarks__
we need a shiny new layout framework built on flexbox and SVG to replace it
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KevinMarks__
flexstrap
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Jeena
so tantek because this photo doesn't have an explicit p-name this is what comes out of the algorytm for that page?
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Jeena
hm, I guess I need to do something about it
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tantek
Jeena - it's because the h-entry has no explicit p-name, it is implied by the full text contents of the h-entry
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Jeena
so basically have to always have some kind of title because otherwise all the readers will show all the text from the whole entry as the title which looks hidious
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Jeena
I will fix that!
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cweiske
except readers get more intelligent
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cweiske
and know that they should not use a text as title
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tantek
it is an open issue also, there have been various brainstorming proposals for how to improve
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Jeena
cweiske yeah but the readers can only take the information from the mf2 parser
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Jeena
and p-name is the designated thing for a title as far as I can see
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tantek
it's the name of the h-entry, which can be displayed as a title
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KevinMarks__
hm, buzzfeed lets you post
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KevinMarks__
wonder if we can POSSE
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Jeena
I see I do that for notes already where I just set it to "Note #37" or something
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Jeena
I will do that for photos too
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cweiske
why don't you set an empty title?
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Jeena
I think Note #3 has more value for the users because it at least has some information
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tantek
both reasonable approaches
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I'm thinking of adding the following: "A POSSE portal, or IndieWeb-Silo Bridge, is a syndication feature that takes a fundamental shortcut through hypermedia. Observers inside the silo see a local representation of hyperlinked responses from the IndieWeb."
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: lot of jargon
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 33 minutes ago: thanks for the "requires login" reminder - just added a parenthetical accordingly to the copy text to give a heads-up to viewers. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-30/line/1438323542989
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KartikPrabhu
also I don't trust any summary that says "fundamental", its my science brain
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole :D
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tantek
"that would fundamentally be a shortcut through spacetime" ;)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah because wormholes don't exist
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tantek
see I thought you would get a kick out of it
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KartikPrabhu
:) anyway, your new description idea might have too much Indieweb jargon
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tantek
it was supposed to sounds all pseudo-scientificy as a point of humor
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tantek
maybe I'll just post it as a note
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KartikPrabhu
haha! if the humor is the point then sure go for it!
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KartikPrabhu
"hypermedia" does sound like the Web version of "fundamental theory" ;)
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tantek
brb adding more jargon
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@t
A POSSE portal, or IndieWeb-Silo Bridge, is a syndication feature that takes a fundamental shortcut through ... http://tantek.com/2015/212/t1/posse-portal-indieweb-silo-bridge
(twitter.com/_/status/627011121074073600)
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Jeena
ah much better now with the p-name https://jeena.net/s/latest.png
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KartikPrabhu
my likes presentation needs more context
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: if I ever write an academic paper about POSSE I will use that as the summary before the abstract ;)
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KartikPrabhu
summary before the abstract? is that a thing?
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tantek
yeah, because abstracts are so long these days ;)
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KartikPrabhu
lol! true
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KartikPrabhu
p-summary-summary
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tantek
p-sum-up
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu mine looks about the same :D https://jeena.net/likes/1
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: yup. that is a good first implementation. but I'd like to have some sort of reply-context, as in pull in tantek's post and display it
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: also i think the typography on your site is pretty good ;)
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KartikPrabhu
might need some vertical space tweaks though
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Jeena
could you elaborate?
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Jeena
hehe tantek
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KartikPrabhu
as in in that note the "about 8 hours ago" is so close and same in size to the actual post content that it looks like a part of content
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Jeena
ah yeah that is true, on my notes it looks better https://jeena.net/notes/395
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KartikPrabhu
aah yes! but why is the like display different from notes. You could do "Jeena liked, about 8 hours ago" then URL
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KartikPrabhu
same as notes pattern
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KartikPrabhu
no need to make new patterns for each post type unless really required
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Jeena
hm yeah you might be right
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: re: text display of likes: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming
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Jeena
it was late yesterday so I din't think clear ^^
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cweiske
don't drink and code
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: oh no! I have been doing everything wrong so far!
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes. I like the notification-first idea. Hadn't thought of that while first designing likes. Will have to work that in
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I literally designed those first and then step by step expanded until I had hypertext, then markup, then coded it and kept iterating.
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tantek
That's how I got to the presentation of likes on my site
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KartikPrabhu
yes! that is how posts ought be designed, me thinks
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tantek
I hope the intermediate steps I documented are of use to others
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KartikPrabhu
will refer to that when redesigning
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Jeena
cweiske also: don't drink and derive
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Jeena
in mathematics that is
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tantek
It's also a "proof" of sorts, allowing anyone to verify the thinking that went into the design
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: I had made a comic on that a long long time ago
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KartikPrabhu
wow! can't find where I stashed it. Should post :P
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Jeena
post all the things!
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tantek
Loqi ^^^
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KartikPrabhu
well now that I have my own site, I am more inclined to do that
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tantek
I suppose I should put in footnotes for all the jargon
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KartikPrabhu
ha! nothing is more academic than footnotes for jargon ;)
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KartikPrabhu
is using Latex again and it is so terrible
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Jeena
really? We used http://www.lyx.org/ to write our thesis back then and I was quite pleased
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Jeena
especially about how official the result looked like https://jeena.net/t/GGS.pdf
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: managing and outputitng references is annoying in latex and also other things
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KartikPrabhu
I wrote most of this paper in HTML, but have to switch due to journals
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Jeena
I never wrote pure latex, always just used lyx and that was quite nice to work with
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KartikPrabhu
not writing pure latex gives me the same feeling as using Word! or a CMS HTML editor ;)
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KartikPrabhu
don't like it
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Loqi
elf-pavlik: aaronpk left you a message 7 hours, 20 minutes ago: I finished the sequence diagram! Let me know if that looks right to you, I was kind of rushed http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-30/line/1438301712387
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Loqi
aaronpk has 918 karma
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KartikPrabhu
man! what if aaronpk reaches 1000 karma, what happens?
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elf-pavlik
from then he can move to cyberspace and leave the gross matter behind ;)
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elf-pavlik
!tell aaronpk does wm.bob can always get auth token with me=https://bob.example.org/ ? it seems to me making delegation not useful if for example https://webmention.io/wwelves.org-perpetual-tripper/webmention can access all the resources which have me in ACL
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tuxed.net
edited /private-webmention (+0) "move toc"
(view diff)
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cweiske.de
created /Category:Diagrams (+32) "Created page with "UML sequence and other diagrams.""
(view diff)
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, also alice (or bob) 'home page' can send web mentions (so no satic site) but they use separate wm.alice (or wm.bob) to receive web mentions ... i don't understand why separating concerns this way helps in any way?
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ben_thatmustbeme
Hmm I realized with vouch we don't say what to do when the couch isn't a valid url
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ben_thatmustbeme
449 or 400??
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cweiske
(c|v)ouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
On my phone. Auto correct
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Zegnat
400 Bad Request is the only error code defined by the webmention spec, IIRC
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Zegnat
Sorry, two error codes: 400 for “sender error”, which would be a faulty vouch, 500 for “receiver error”, if your endpoint had problems somewhere
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ben_thatmustbeme
449 is introduced for vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
What is vouch?
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Loqi
The Vouch protocol is an anti-spam extension to Webmention. Webmention with Vouch depends on understanding Webmention https://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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Zegnat
I totally missed that, ben_thatmustbeme, thanks!
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Zegnat
Seems that it is 449 for missing vouch, 400 for non-approved vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
Indeed. Both are non Approval but 449 points you to vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
If they don't send a url as vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
I feel like 449 is a good way to indicate "go read the spec"
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Zegnat
The protocol summary says you should return 400 for any check that fails, including when receiver “syntax checks [vouch] is a valid URL” - https://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch#Protocol_Summary
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fkooman
Blog: OAuth 2.0 AS discovery from RS https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman/blog/as_discovery.html
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Loqi
fkooman has 7 karma
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /private-webmention (+35) "/* Security by Obscurity */ See also: capability-urls"
(view diff)
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme, did you try implementing https://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: not yet, its on my todo list
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elf-pavlik
<link rel="webmention" href="https://ben.thatmustbe.me/webmention" />
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elf-pavlik
so for you your 'home page' and webmention endpoint run on the same backend
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elf-pavlik
but for auth you use <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://indieid.com/">
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elf-pavlik
and for token <link rel="token_endpoint" href="https://ben.thatmustbe.me/token">
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elf-pavlik
<link rel="authentication_endpoint" href="https://indieid.com/">
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elf-pavlik
would make sense for distributed indieauth
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elf-pavlik
since i see mixing of authorization and authentication
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elf-pavlik
i don't always write only to 'my homepage'
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elf-pavlik
i also write for example to https://phubble.tuxed.net/w3c-social/
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ben_thatmustbeme
whild i think he is correct, it really should be "authentication" not "authorization". i don't see the need for verification being seperate
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ben_thatmustbeme
keeps reading
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elf-pavlik
yeah also i would use <link rel="authentication_endpoint" href="https://indiecert.net/authenticate" />
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: huh? "i don't always write only to 'my homepage'"
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elf-pavlik
while <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://as.wwelves.org/" />
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elf-pavlik
yes, i can always keep copy first but than do 'fat ping' and authenticate to shared data space to post directly there
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elf-pavlik
than it dosn't need to access resource but only have copy and other people who have ACL can access it
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elf-pavlik
you write directly to http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
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elf-pavlik
using mediawiki as client you authenticate to
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elf-pavlik
using <link rel="authentication_endpoint" href="" /> hopefully at some point ...
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elf-pavlik
but you could have you wikiclient similar to http://indiewebcamp.com/unmpc
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elf-pavlik
which would use authorization_endpoint specified by http://indiewebcamp.com/ which in turn would use my authentication_endpoint to login and write directly to indiewebcamp.org wiki
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elf-pavlik
s/.org/.com/
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Loqi
elf-pavlik meant to say: which would use authorization_endpoint specified by http://indiewebcamp.com/ which in turn would use my authentication_endpoint to login and write directly to indiewebcamp.com wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks bewildered at all this... its taken to a bit of an extreme rediculousness
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elf-pavlik
so we need distinct rel=authentication_endpoint which acts as IdP to authenticate
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elf-pavlik
and rel=authorization_endpoint which specifies authorization server for this resource server
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ben_thatmustbeme
tunes out to go feed babies
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elf-pavlik
enjoy ben_thatmustbeme
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme, "Currently set to automatically accept, but moderation is planned." http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#IndieWeb_Examples
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elf-pavlik
sending web mention looks like a write to 'not my homepage' resource server
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fkooman
is blogging away about private webmentions...
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elf-pavlik
i see use in sending the payload if i can authenticate when posting a webmention
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elf-pavlik
so the 'webmention endpoint' dosn't need to go throught source ACL
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ben_thatmustbeme
i need to update that, I use vouch now + moderation
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ben_thatmustbeme
any non vouched, non whitelisted mentions go to moderation
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elf-pavlik
if we don't talk about private messaging but groups with ACL like https://phubble.tuxed.net/w3c-social/
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elf-pavlik
having web mention 'endpoint' of https://phubble.tuxed.net/w3c-social/ authenticating to fetch messages seems to make ACL much more complicated
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ben_thatmustbeme
isn't completely following elf-pavlik, you seem to be all over the place
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elf-pavlik
for secret phubble wall (smilar to irc channel or xmpp muc) one can also set read access just for those people
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elf-pavlik
with public read and ACL write it could serve as https://twitter.com/SocialWebWG or https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp
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elf-pavlik
but seeing who made the actual post and not posting as organization itself
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: i think for the indie-web ideal of keeping all your own data, private webmention would be the way about this
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ben_thatmustbeme
if you are talking about the idea of public posts but non-advertised posts
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ben_thatmustbeme
you just don't put the reply on your homepage feed
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elf-pavlik
this way resource server which 'hosts' discussion also needs agency to act as resource owner
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elf-pavlik
which doesn't support cases like http://indiewebcamp.com/ https://tag.w3.org/ etc.
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elf-pavlik
i'll use social.w3.example with a chair only discussion on https://social.w3.example/chairs/sched
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elf-pavlik
only people on list of group chair can read and write there (write - append)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd recommend, A) take this to #social as this is getting outside of IWC, and B) start by proposing a new user story that is clear since that one was pretty well downvoted for being duplicate / unclear
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ben_thatmustbeme
in which case you are just saying private groups
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elf-pavlik
restricted shared feeds, groups can have independent definitiosn e.g. w3c-social chairs
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elf-pavlik
in private-webmention scenario always a person (having agency) needs to host conversation and fetch webmentions using its webmention endpoint
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elf-pavlik
<link href="http://webmention.io/indiewebcamp/webmention" rel="webmention" /> in https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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elf-pavlik
would require me=https://indiewebcamp.com to fetch webmentions hosted here
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elf-pavlik
while IMO https://indiewebcamp.com doesn't need to have 'agency' but only host wikis, discussions, chatrooms etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme
remember that chatrooms is sort of out of scope.
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elf-pavlik
private-webmentions seems to require hosting resource server to have agency and authenticate as someone included in ACL
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ben_thatmustbeme
for the WG anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme
you are concerned about hosting the posts on some external site
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ben_thatmustbeme
when we started to look at the whole groups thing it was suggested that events as they stand now are a pretty good place to start
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elf-pavlik
freenode.net hosts this channel, indiewebcamp.com hosts wiki ...
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ben_thatmustbeme
figure out groups from that
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elf-pavlik
this would work if Ben creates an event
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elf-pavlik
hosted by w3.org not a person with 'agency'
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ben_thatmustbeme
w3.org is a wiki, so it really can't. but some JS alternative in the like of webmention.io could
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elf-pavlik
shared responsibility, i don't think anyone would like a single person to control w3.org events or groups
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ben_thatmustbeme
what are they controlling
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "they controlling" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100q
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elf-pavlik
the event wall resource or group message board resource
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think you are mixing two issues, one is just creating things as some group account, the other is just private groups / events
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ben_thatmustbeme
how its controlled is independant of the spec to notify
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elf-pavlik
i don't agree... in private-webmention case you need to get token for me=https://w3.org/ for example to fetch content behind ACL
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elf-pavlik
and add https://w3.org/ to ACL
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elf-pavlik
did you look at diagrams in https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/26
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elf-pavlik
for group/event walls message boards 'notification' acts as a way to post
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elf-pavlik
illustrated case would require me=https://web.academy while i would also like to support hosting by resource servers which don't have 'agency'
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elf-pavlik
so can't authenticate as organization
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: you need an authentication token, to prove its you (the reader)
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elf-pavlik
i agree we better move this topic to #social :) IWC seems to focus on 'personal' and doesn't seek support for 'group' / 'organization' workflows
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ben_thatmustbeme
in case of w3.org hosting an event. w3.org needs to prove to my site it is w3.org in order to fetch content
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elf-pavlik
so the client needs to fetch all the content in this case? not webmention endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme
w3.org fetches copies
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ben_thatmustbeme
and keeps that data restricted to some ACL
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ben_thatmustbeme
who need to prove it is them to read
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elf-pavlik
oh webmention endpoint for private-webmention always acts as client on behalf of resource owner (via me=https://alice.example)
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ben_thatmustbeme
works exactly as pulling in comments or context on current public posts
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elf-pavlik
for public posts one doesn't need to authenticate to pull them
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elf-pavlik
in this case in each reply i always need to mention everyone? i can't just subscribe to a thread like in github issues
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elf-pavlik
BTW how does private content work with pubsubhubbub?
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elf-pavlik
eg. i want to receive 'notification' for each reply to an event, not only those which mention me in explicit way
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elf-pavlik
but the event stay secret like https://phubble.tuxed.net/alice-b-day/
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ben_thatmustbeme
you wouldn't need to share with everyone. just the main thread. its a good question, has not been worked out
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elf-pavlik
Sign In with IndieCert https://phubble.tuxed.net/
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ben_thatmustbeme
would probably work more like salmention though
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elf-pavlik
salmention :D
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elf-pavlik
publish (create, post) to https://phubble.tuxed.net/alice-b-day/
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petermolnar.eu
edited /spam (+383) "/* Spam Prevention */"
(view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Webmention (+16) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ update my webmention usage"
(view diff)
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 107 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
the nice thing is that be it a private event, private group, or private post it should work relatively the same way
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ben_thatmustbeme
no matter where it is hosted
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ben_thatmustbeme
has been thinking about creating a silo that supports indieweb fully
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ben_thatmustbeme
that would be interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme
to see if i can get friends who are not web devs to join
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elf-pavlik
you can give people subdomains on *.indiesilo.com
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petermolnar
if indiesilo.com is not an oxymoron, I don't know what is
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petermolnar
ben_thatmustbeme, wasn't withknown.com supposed to be the indieweb silo?
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Zegnat
Buy indiesilo.com, install Known on it?
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petermolnar
or a heavily tweaked wordpress network with all the turns & knobs preinstalled for indieweb
scor joined the channel
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@carlospache_co
It gives me hope for the web every time @kevinmarks is on @twig and talks about @withknown and what the #indieweb movement is doing.
(twitter.com/_/status/627105642856054786)
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LanceyWork
!tell tantek i'm having issues with urls not being identified properly in cassis.js tw_text_proxy due to their tlds being excluded from the link regex, but i noticed you had intentionally excluded .mobi and .jobs. any precedent for other missing tlds, e.g. .codes, or is that a matter of having to update the regex to include them?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
Okay...spent the last two hours troubleshooting this...fixed three bugs. Still doesn't work. Darn.
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LanceyWork
what's the problem?
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GWG
First, it wasn't setting what I wanted it to. I found I had a setting wrong.
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GWG
Now, it is setting what I want it to, but when it tries to retrieve the data it uses to make the decision about what to set, it is getting nothing.
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LanceyWork
that's always frustrating
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LanceyWork
where does it retrieve the data from?
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GWG
LanceyWork: The database, effectively.
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GWG
The same place the thing it is setting is stored. Just different part.
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LanceyWork
how bizarre
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GWG
I have an idea suddenly.
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LanceyWork
if you force it to always set the thing, does it work?
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GWG
I wonder if it would work.
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GWG
LanceyWork: Yes. That was how I troubleshooted the other problem
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LanceyWork
wouldn't hurt to try (or it would)
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GWG
I have another idea about where to get the data to set the parameter
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GWG
I'm retrieving it from where it was stored.
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GWG
This is hooking off the Micropub plugin, which stores it based on the POST parameters
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ben_thatmustbeme
petermolnar: yes, that too but Known comes off more as a pile of independant blogs. there is no feeds, etc
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GWG
Maybe I'll just try to get it pre-processing, instead of post-processing
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ben_thatmustbeme
would be cool to do that internally, but then show how everything works with it
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GWG
Anyway....that's for later
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@tabatkins
RT @t: A POSSE portal, or IndieWeb-Silo Bridge, is a syndication feature that takes a fundamental shortcut through ... http://t.co/eycamn8O…
(twitter.com/_/status/627124998629535745)
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KevinMarks__
I suppose ask.willsomeone.com is a kind of indiesilo
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KevinMarks__
as you have user pages and h-entry markup
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aaronpk
wow good morning
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Loqi
aaronpk: elf-pavlik left you a message 7 hours, 20 minutes ago: does wm.bob can always get auth token with me=https://bob.example.org/ ? it seems to me making delegation not useful if for example https://webmention.io/wwelves.org-perpetual-tripper/webmention can access all the resources which have me in ACL http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-31/line/1438328547800
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aaronpk
that's quite a lot of chatter about extending webmention
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: I think if you're trusting your webmention endpoint to fetch private posts for you, then you have to accept what that means
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petermolnar
heh, interesting how differently I think; I'd just serve a gpg pubkey crypted version of the post for the webmention read request crypted by the pubkey from the remote site
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aaronpk
sure but that doesn't really change anything, it means that the thing fetching your private posts has access to your private key
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aaronpk
which is analogous to "my webmention endpoint can access all the resources which have me in the ACL"
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petermolnar
no, I think you misunderstood: private post on my page; request comes in from remote site to view; my site fetches the pubkey from the remote site; encrypts the post content with the pubkey; displays the data for the request; the remote site should decrypt it with their privkey
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aaronpk
right, my point is the *part of the remote site that is decrypting it* must have acess to the private key
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aaronpk
in the webmention example this is known as teh "webmention endpoint"
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aaronpk
which could very well be part of your own site, but may also be delegated to an external service
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aaronpk
and the same would be true in your case with pgp keys
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petermolnar
fair point
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, do you have examples of ACL definition?
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aaronpk
in my site it's just a list of URLs
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aaronpk
the ACL is an internal implementation detail tho
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elf-pavlik
if i link to https://www.nsa.gov/ it don't need to get included in ACL
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aaronpk
who said anything about "link to"
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ben_thatmustbeme
ACLs are about who has access, not who links to
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aaronpk
my private posts contain a list of URLs who are allowed to access the post
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elf-pavlik
how would you share post with ACL allowing read only to socialwg members listed on http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=72531&public=1
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ben_thatmustbeme
which is actually an interesting bit, aaronpk what are your thoughts on how to set access to a post via MP?
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: good question, one sec
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ben_thatmustbeme
for that matter, do you list who has access within the post
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elf-pavlik
i work on implementing https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl but fosuced on JSON-LD not Turtle
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: I would either 1) add that group URL to my site which would pull in all the individual members, or 2) add everyone individually
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aaronpk
then I would send a webmention to everyone's home page which would trigger the flow on http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention
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elf-pavlik
what if someone joins or leaves group ?
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@HongPong
#d4dboston @mlncn gives the plug for #indiewebcamp @benwerd @withknown as good internets tool breaking out of walled garden. very good
(twitter.com/_/status/627143388136128513)
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aaronpk
if I reference the URL then that's taken care of automatically
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aaronpk
problem is "what if someone joins or leaves" actually requires different behavior depending on the desired result, and isn't something I can make a sweeping judgment on
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elf-pavlik
how new person joining social-wg will allow her to read posts shared to social-wg ?
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: you're going a little far with this right now
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, @mlncn is over at the NERD center right now
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Loqi
awesome
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aaronpk
private webmention != groups
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elf-pavlik
ok
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elf-pavlik
so we focus on bit different use cases
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elf-pavlik
i need to document group feeds on a wiki
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aaronpk
there's two different ways to handle groups, one being sharing content from your site with a group, the other where the group has its own storage for the group's content
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aaronpk
and both are valid in different cases
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ben_thatmustbeme
hopefully they will post a video of his talk
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elf-pavlik
i look at group having its own storage for the group's content as both w3social groups and indiewebcamp use such spaces (wiki, irc)
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aaronpk
in that case the whole private-webmention page is not relevant
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elf-pavlik
ok
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, how does pubsubhubbub handle private feeds?
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aaronpk
it doesn't yet
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aaronpk
the original PuSH authors explicitly left out private feeds from the spec
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aaronpk
i want to see how that could work, but haven't explored it much yet
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elf-pavlik
it seems having some similarities to private group discussions
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aaronpk
i think so
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elf-pavlik
i want to subscribe to comments even if they don't mention me
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elf-pavlik
comments / replies
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aaronpk
that's a great use of PuSH
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elf-pavlik
does PuSH still use 'fat pings' ?
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aaronpk
it can, but i know a lot of people have implemented it with thin pings
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elf-pavlik
how for private feeds hub.callback would compare to webmention endpoint ?
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elf-pavlik
for thin pings
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elf-pavlik
> hub.callback
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elf-pavlik
REQUIRED. The subscriber's callback URL where notifications should be delivered. It is considered good practice to use a unique callback URL for each subscription.
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gRegorLove
Morning, indiewebcamp!
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elf-pavlik
morning gRegorLove
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elf-pavlik
will need to run soon
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aaronpk
refers to mapkyca's IRC protocol walkthrough
benwerd, tantek and thehighf_ joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
tantek: LanceyWork left you a message 3 hours, 11 minutes ago: i'm having issues with urls not being identified properly in cassis.js tw_text_proxy due to their tlds being excluded from the link regex, but i noticed you had intentionally excluded .mobi and .jobs. any precedent for other missing tlds, e.g. .codes, or is that a matter of having to update the regex to include them? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-31/line/1438348827555
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tantek
LanceyWork: yeah it's a matter of disincentivizing all the new carp TLDs. do you have a specific one that you need e.g. for your personal site?
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LanceyWork
i use .space
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tantek
what's your site?
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@LanceCoyote
3744 characters on one line. That’s definitely the longest line of code I’ve ever seen.
(twitter.com/_/status/627150045398183936)
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LanceyWork
tantek, that's with all the extra domains added
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tantek
.space sounds generic enough
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tantek
I objected to .jobs and .mobi because TLDs should have nothing to do with the content (jobs?!?) or be device specific (mobile?!?)
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tantek
that's their layer violation and thus those should be deprecated
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tantek
the explosion is also too crazy so I'm only going to bother adding when there's real world indieweb use-cases
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tantek
like yours :)
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Loqi
slack/ben_thatmustbeme: what if you last name is jobs?
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ben_thatmustbeme
ack, talking in slack notifies me in here
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm more interested in "my last name is jobs" than "what if ... "
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tantek
the bar has been raised
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tantek
and yes, if Moby asks me to add .mobi for him then I likely will.
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LanceyWork
i just feel like if you're going to add them one at a time as indieweb sites use them, you might just end up adding them all anyway
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tantek
LanceyWork: that kind of reasoning is how we end up with explosions of terms like schema
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tantek
it's the other way around, by default, minimalism wins
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LanceyWork
i suppose
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[aaronpk]
good morning
[slackbot] joined the channel
#
[slackbot]
good morning
#
[slackbot]
good morning
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[slackbot]
good morning
#
[slackbot]
good morning
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[slackbot]
good morning
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[aaronpk]
uhoh what
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LanceyWork
good morning
#
[slackbot]
good morning
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gRegorLove
Shh, slackbot
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aaronpk
now realizes he did not test this in a two-way integrated room yet
[aaronpk] joined the channel
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[aaronpk]
let's try that again
[slackbot] joined the channel
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[slackbot]
lol
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M-Kegan
Routing loop?
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aaronpk
i think i have to completely ignore everything from slackbot
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aaronpk
there's nothing in the post request that indicates the display name that slackbot shows. their webhook integration leaves something to be desired.
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M-Kegan
You're trying to do slack to irc?
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aaronpk
better slack<->IRC... we've had it for a while
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M-Kegan
Shouldn't it just work? Is the irc bridge done by the slack people?
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aaronpk
not really. slack provides an irc interface that an irc client can use to connect to a slack room. I want a two-way link with an existing IRC channel
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Loqi
gives aaronpk a two
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LanceyWork
is the post request coming from slack or irc?
#
LanceyWork
or rather what's the context of it
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aaronpk
Slack supports "outgoing web hooks" so each message that is sent to a slack room causes them to send a POST request to your endpoint
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tantek
LanceyWork - hey add yourself to /irc-people ! since you have a personal site and all
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M-Kegan
So an irc bot will sit in here and consume irc messages, and post to slack? And how does the bot get stuff from slack?
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LanceyWork
i'm listed there as lancey
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LanceyWork
my home computer is just powered down atm
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M-Kegan
Or does slack just say "give me a channel and I'll spit stuff from slack to it"?
[aaronpk] joined the channel
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[aaronpk]
and now the IRC logs properly link Slack users from /irc-people
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tantek
Lancey you can add your IRC nickname variants too
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aaronpk
M-Kegan: from IRC->Slack is handled by Loqi an an "incoming web hook" on Slack
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LanceyWork
what are irc people
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M-Kegan
What about the reverse?
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aaronpk
see above
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M-Kegan
You said from irc to slack?
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lancey.space
edited /IRC_People (+97) "/* Nicknames */ Added my work nick"
(view diff)
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M-Kegan
What about slack to irc?
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aaronpk
slack to irc is handled by their outgoing web hook like i mentioned before
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M-Kegan
Right which loqi gets
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M-Kegan
lol
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aaronpk
Loqi sits in IRC and sends messages to Slack
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aaronpk
Slack sends post requests to the new gateway which signs in to IRC for each slack user
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M-Kegan
You're going to have problems breaking routing loops if they aren't the same entity, short of hacks like checking the nick, username or real name surely.
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[aaronpk]
right, which is why I had to ignore "slackbot" which is how all the IRC messages appear when sent back to IRC
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[aaronpk]
if Slack's outgoing hook contained more information like the display name in slack, I could be smarter about it. But the outgoing web hook does not include all of the information that you see in the Slack UI.
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M-Kegan
Ahhh I see
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M-Kegan
Helpful.
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aaronpk
the gateway source code is here if you're interetsed https://github.com/aaronpk/Slack-IRC-Gateway
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M-Kegan
Very. I do the matrix <-> irc bridge so bridges are relevant to my interests ;3
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aaronpk
aha :)
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M-Kegan
Handling all the edge cases though is nigh impossible.
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[aaronpk]
yeah also handling the intricacies of Slack is fun, like how they handle emoji :simple_smile:
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aaronpk
(i typed a literal :-) in slack for that ^^)
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M-Kegan
Currently doing win95 style LONGNA~1 support for usernames since matrix ids have a bigger namespace
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@dgd7
RT @HongPong: #d4dboston @mlncn gives the plug for #indiewebcamp @benwerd @withknown as good internets tool breaking out of walled garden. …
(twitter.com/_/status/627172575467151360)
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tantek
Bridge all the things!
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tantek
sigh, Loqi
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[ben_thatmustbem
looks much nicer now
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonders how the bridge back the other way handles things like :simple_smile: and :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
it changed the first one in to an image, but not the second
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KevinMarks__
hi TinoKremer
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TinoKremer
Hey KevinMarks__
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KevinMarks__
what brings you here?
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TinoKremer
I'm working on my website. I'm trying to setup a self hosted Known instance. So far so good, I figured Ben would be in here as well
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KevinMarks__
he often is; there's also #knownchat
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KevinMarks__
A wild benwerd appears
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TinoKremer
Lol
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benwerd
briefly
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tantek
yes that was impressive
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TinoKremer
thinks benwerd is monitoring this channel for his name or Known
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tantek
or any mention of "Ben"
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benwerd
This was an accident - I'm in a meeting, needed to find a link to share and IRC is always on when I'm online :)
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tantek
sure, sure. ;)
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benwerd
And now I disappear ;)
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TinoKremer
Lol :)
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KevinMarks__
that was pure Kibo
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tantek
now you've done it
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TinoKremer
KevinMarks__ you are also on the hosted WithKnown (pro) I see, I figured you would have your own site
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tantek
he does
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KevinMarks__
I have my own site, but not my own known instance
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TinoKremer
Sorry, that's what I meant
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TinoKremer
known.kevinmarks.com is resolving to the same IP as my site :)
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tantek
ooh clever
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TinoKremer
I want TLS support, so I decided to selfhost
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KevinMarks__
yep, I thought that was more interesting for me to try things out, though it means I can't patch the code.
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow, benwerd showed up on command
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought you had to say his name 3 times in the mirror
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TinoKremer
That's another reason for selfhosting. Ben has been talking about 0.8 and specifically the ability to set privacy for each post individually. That's not on the service yet :)
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TinoKremer
Do any of you know if it's possible to 'import' content from one known site to another?
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KevinMarks__
yes, there is an export/import process, though I haven't done it
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KevinMarks__
#knownchat may know more
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TinoKremer
You can export, which I did, but there currently is only Blogger and Wordpress import :) I'll try later on #knownchat, ty
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TinoKremer
I'll fiddle around. Are there Indiewebcamp sessions in The Netherlands yet?
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@mlncn
RT @HongPong: #d4dboston @mlncn gives the plug for #indiewebcamp @benwerd @withknown as good internets tool breaking out of walled garden. …
(twitter.com/_/status/627180335491600384)
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snarfed
does anyone have recommendations for software bounty marketplaces? (non security related)
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snarfed
i'd like offer a bounty for a way to get your FB news feed programmatically after FB turns off the /me/home API endpoint in october. https://github.com/snarfed/facebook-atom/issues/6
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tantek
snarfed what was the HTML-only view of FB?
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[aaronpk]
still can't believe they're doing that
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tantek
there was a URL / domain to use to see your FB news etc. in HTML w/o JS
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KevinMarks__
you still need a cookie though
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tantek
can I micropub a cookie to my server?
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tantek
considers running a personal bridgy-like proxy box from his home, so to the silos it just looks like a random home access
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snarfed
tantek: sorry i don't follow the q re html-only view
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snarfed
do you mean, could i scrape?
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snarfed
no clue. honestly i'm reluctant to try
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snarfed
i'd really rather not maintain scraping like that over time
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snarfed
also i expect the auth part would be difficult, especially to get a reasonable UX. API tokens and cookies are usually totally separate. if the onboarding includes "extract a cookie from your browser and paste it here"…ugh
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tantek
indeed
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snarfed
if someone does all the investigation and packages up a nice minimal chunk of code, i'd maybe consider it, hence bounty
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snarfed
i'd pay for that with money right now, but not time and effort :P
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tantek
gah now it's bugging me that I can't find that URL
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KevinMarks_
it was in logs before
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snarfed
(btw tantek you'll at least be happy to know that losing /me/home won't affect bridgy at all. just facebook-atom.)
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tantek
they had some atom support?
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tantek
darn it I really thought I'd added this to the wiki
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KevinMarks_
gah, medium ficks up my fragmention by putting a "back to top" link on top of it
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snarfed
tantek: sorry, no, by facebook-atom i meant https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi messages?
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Loqi
is done
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tantek.com
edited /repost (+907) "/* Tumblr */ Tumblr reblog persistence with real world example with multiple levels of reblogging, including a deleted original"
(view diff)
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kevinmarks.com
edited /repost (+89) "/* Tumblr reblog persistence */"
(view diff)
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GWG
Okay, finally got the Post Kinds plugin to set the kind when the post is created by Micropub.
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GWG
Seem to have broken the ability somehow to change the post kind in the WordPress Post UI
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ben_thatmustbeme
need to get reposts working
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ben_thatmustbeme
and displaying
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aaronpk
kylewm: are you POSSEing your instagram comments?!
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kylewm
cheating with Selenium/PhantomJS
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aaronpk
whoa did you just send a webmention to me because your post was updated?
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aaronpk
i just got a notification "aaronparecki.com commented on a post you were tagged in"
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aaronpk
haha i should probably not send myself a notification if i'm the one that commented
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aaronpk
but that was kind of cool
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snarfed
ooh kylewm want to extend your selenium service to do fb too? i'm totally imagining a service i could give an access token and get back the user's news feed
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snarfed
(only half joking! :P)
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kylewm
snarfed: sadly, it would have to be your username/password...which i don't want to be responsible for
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snarfed
awww man true
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snarfed
well or a cookie
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aaronpk
oauth++
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Loqi
oauth has 1 karma
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KevinMarks_
a browser plugin live brad's one
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KevinMarks_
s/live/like/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: a browser plugin like brad's one
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kylewm
oh haha, yeah it sent you a salmention notification!
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@aaronpk
@papapelz hmm that's on the Wordpress side. If you hop in #indiewebcamp IRC I'm sure someone would be happy to... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/07/31/3/indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/627258448149786624)
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Loqi
[mention] Aaron Parecki commented '@papapelz hmm that's on the Wordpress side. If you hop in #indiewebcamp IRC I'm sure someone would be happy to figure it out! http://indiewe...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/07/31/3/indiewebcamp)
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