#indiewebcamp 2015-08-16

2015-08-16 UTC
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tantek good day #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi [mention] Jacky Alciné liked http://indiewebcamp.com/irc https://webmention.io/notification/voe-PxaIPQLHZW5-izDqfw
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Loqi [mention] Jacky Alciné liked a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started https://webmention.io/notification/_7j9rZcm7QLxzv4cHo_Rkw
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Loqi [mention] IndieWebCamp liked http://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/G83U91LBNVhMygaX2WBB9w
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aaronpk meta
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Loqi [mention] IndieWebCamp liked http://indiewebcamp.com/irc https://webmention.io/notification/cmMh1ZUt-L6Du89RxwS8jg
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sensiblemn totes meta dude
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@kevinmarks @girlziplocked @dabravanel well, we have been investigating http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite and @SlackHQ's 'all emoji are kinds of fave' is reframing (twitter.com/_/status/632845593098907648)
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Loqi [bridgy] STOP WHITE PEOPLE. replied '@kevinmarks @dabravanel @SlackHQ @arthur_affect and I both agreed yesterday that faves are like message
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@synvila @emomilol Det finns gott om dokumentation (http://indiewebcamp.com) men problemet är att det är sÃ¥ sjukt dÃ¥ligt strukturerat och prioriterat. (twitter.com/_/status/632922374304722944)
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@yatil Meh. Having problems to connect to @uberspace using the Indieauth OpenID proxy is very inconvenient… I think I need another OpenID provider… (twitter.com/_/status/632943809333231616)
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GWG Hmm...bear is on a podcast about talky. I should watch
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@LukasRosenstock This awesome summary from @jeena makes me really sad that I couldn't attend the @indiewebcamp in Portland: https://jeena.net/indiewebcamp-2015?utm_content=buffer09beb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/632956233268523008)
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Loqi [mention] Jeff Larkin commented 'Implementing an #indieweb CMS 3 min read Every so many month...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com (http://known-jefflarkin1.rhcloud.com/2015/implementing-an-indieweb-cms)
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tantek why all the uncollapsed whitespace in a notification Loqi?
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Loqi grins profusely
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KevinMarks !tell tantek,loqi that would be the whitespace collapsing rpoblem in http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#whitespace_collapsing_revisited
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks @Malarkey if you want reviewers, come to #microformats on freenode irc. Or #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/632980734337159168)
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aaronpk I decided to formalize my file-based database for storing my GPS logs https://github.com/aaronpk/QuartzDB
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@kevinmarks @Malarkey well we have a web version: http:///irc/2015-08-16 and a slack mirror too: http://slack.indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/633001026711228416)
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aaronpk I wonder at what point we can just say "we have a public chat room you can access from the web, IRC or Slack"
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Loqi [bridgy] Andrew Clarke replied '@kevinmarks Disco!' to a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-16 (https://twitter.com/Malarkey/status/633002018723004416)
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KevinMarks probably now
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KevinMarks could you make /beta the default?
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aaronpk i should take off the "beta" thing then
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Loqi yea
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KevinMarks I think it is ready, seems very robust
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KevinMarks now you have a way to get rid of the ghosts
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aaronpk yeah. oh I need to fix the problem of web messages not showing up in slack
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@offrayLC @withknown There is any way to change the language interface by default to Spanish? Thinking in teaching your platform in Latam #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/633003641067184128)
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@klischka Deutsche Ãœbersetzung für Indieweb: das Unternet. (twitter.com/_/status/633005956499140608)
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@JoanBleicher RT @klischka: Deutsche Ãœbersetzung für Indieweb: das Unternet. (twitter.com/_/status/633006430300278784)
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aaronpk let's see how this goes
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aaronpk_web hi from the web
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Zegnat hi to the web
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aaronpk_web whee
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aaronpk_web this should do it
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[aaronpk] hi from slack!
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Zegnat Hello slack, have you met web?
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aaronpk_web great looks like it's all hooked up
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Zegnat Are web and slack visible to eachother now?
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[aaronpk] Yep, I made it so the web chat doesn't add [] around the nickname
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Zegnat Is the `_web` suffix automatic?
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aaronpk nope
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Zegnat alright, so no way to distinguish web users. Might be for the best. Though a bit weird to have slack users stand-out
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[aaronpk] oh funny slack treats `backticks` as code markers
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aaronpk if you do a whois on the web users you'll see they are connected from the web gateway
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aaronpk but I don't think there's any value to distinguishing web users here. all part of the plan to treat IRC as plumbing rather than as first-class infrastructure
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aaronpk_web hm can web users use the /nick command?
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aaronpk_web /nick aaronpk_
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Zegnat Will Slack ever drop the [ ] and just use “IRC as plumbing”?
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aaronpk I'm not sure I can, because the Slack API doesn't give me enough to distinguish where the messages came from otherwise
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Zegnat I guess you can’t be /whois'ing everyone to filter out the slack-use username?
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aaronpk also there's a higher chance of nick conflicts between slack users and IRC users
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aaronpk for example I've registered "aaronpk" with nickserv, and i'm also "aaronpk" on Slack. using [] is a convenient way to avoid nick conflicts
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aaronpk but if someone is joining from the web interface, they are probably not a regular IRC user, and if they are, they probably know whether they are currently connected to IRC
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Zegnat1 Aah, it uses numbers to stop nick conflicts
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aaronpk yeah, and IMO "aaronpk1" is less ideal than "[aaronpk]"
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Zegnat1 /quit
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Zegnat1 Guess commands never work. Just close the tab?
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aaronpk yeah it'll time out
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aaronpk the web interface is not an IRC client
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Zegnat no, I realised that.
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aaronpk i'm debating implementing /nick right now, but not sure
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Zegnat I just hoped if I could kill the connection, tell the bot to shut down, rather than waiting for a timeout
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aaronpk that sounds like more work for me :P
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Zegnat hahaha
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Loqi hehe
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Zegnat extremely low priority though. Most people using the webchat will be more likely to close the tab than to figure out a command for disconnecting
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk_ neat, /nick works from the web now
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Zegnat is there some way for it to do an underscore rather than a number behind the nickname in case of conflict?
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__aaronpk__ not sure, I think that's something the IRC client library does
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aaronpk yeah that's buried pretty deep in the node-irc library
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aaronpk https://github.com/martynsmith/node-irc/blob/master/lib/irc.js#L219
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aaronpk i'l open an issue asking them to add a callback mechanism to override that behavior
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Zegnat Interesting how they harcoded that without an option to overwrite it
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aaronpk yeah
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M-kegan Good luck getting them to do anything in any reasonable amount of time aaronpk
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aaronpk oh?
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aaronpk should I just do it and send a PR?
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M-kegan I ended up forking it https://github.com/matrix-org/node-irc
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M-kegan Issues or PRs don't matter, the maintenance is crap
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aaronpk wow okay
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aaronpk what'dyou change? should I be using your fork?
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M-kegan I can add a hook in my fork tomorrow if you want. I'm happy with the numbered suffix currently but I've been bitten by it just renaming it without any overrides before
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M-kegan The readme explains some of the diffs
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aaronpk cool!
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M-kegan There's also more sanity checks to avoid spontaneous uncaught exceptions
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aaronpk I'd gladly switch to your fork if yuo've been making more progress on it than they have
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M-kegan matrix.org are pretty serious about getting a reliable irc bridge up, given it helps bootstrapping, so I've been able to dedicate a lot more time than most on it
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aaronpk awesome
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M-kegan Some of the progress is dumb maintenance though, like accepting PRs which already exist on the main project
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aaronpk heh wow
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M-kegan Let's just say I've been unimpressed by it..
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aaronpk not sure if you saw my chatter here yesterday, but i'm considering switching from my weechat IRC client to a web client that I want to build
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M-kegan Though there isn't anything better and for the basic use case it does indeed work.
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aaronpk which means I'll be relying on some sort of IRC client library pretty heavily
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M-kegan Haven't been lurking too much in here this weekend so you'll need to repeat :3
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aaronpk oh it was friday actually http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-14#t1439585718774
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aaronpk i've gotta finish my new site before i can go anywhere near this tho :P
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M-kegan Without sounding self promotional, some of the issues you've described would be fixed using something like matrix. We have web clients, irc integration, basic rest apis for rolling your own clients, and we're completely open source / standard
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M-kegan Things like storage matrix.org does very well
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aaronpk hmm let me take a look
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aaronpk i have an interesting set of requirements that may not have been articulated well in that log
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M-kegan Please do explain in more detail
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M-kegan Like atm I'm speaking from a matrix client on my android device which is then being bounced to irc
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M-kegan Which is rather useful
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M-kegan Since I have scrollback without the need for an irc bouncer
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aaronpk some background is here http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2015/03/05/2/designing-an-indieweb-reader
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aaronpk i wish i could share screenshots but a lot of the IRC channels I have contain private information
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aaronpk heh there's a weechat matrix plugin?
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M-kegan I belive Tor (a person, not the organisation) did one, lemme find it
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aaronpk i found the screenshot on https://matrix.org/blog/try-matrix-now/
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M-kegan https://github.com/torhve/weechat-matrix-protocol-script
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M-kegan I don use weechat so idk if that is what you want
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aaronpk well I don't know that I want to keep using weechat, but that is my current preferred client
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M-kegan nods
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M-kegan reads your blog post
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aaronpk reads matrix docs
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M-kegan Hum, interesting. Things like push we have covered, and aggregating from silos is a thing we aim to do well. We don't have any specific twitter integration yet though afaik
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aaronpk the main reason I keep coming back to IRC for everything is because with Loqi, I have a simple HTTP and UDP API to get messages into a specific IRC channel
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M-kegan But if you have bots which are spitting stuff into irc, it's trivial to get them to do an http post to send a message instead presumably.
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aaronpk this lets me write external services that do things like twitter searches where the result is piped into an IRC channel
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M-kegan nods
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aaronpk I also have some systems like my front door which reports to IRC rather than having its own place to log things
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M-kegan Yeah I know what you mean. Before matrix.org even went public I wrote a bot for webhooks from github jenkins and jira
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M-kegan Which is just trivial to do as http pokes
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M-kegan How do you get scrollback?
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aaronpk is that the "sending message" part of the docs here? http://matrix.org/docs/howtos/client-server.html
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aaronpk I use weechat which is normally connected 100% of the time, so scrollback happens in the terminal interface. (weechat is running on a server at home in a tmux session)
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aaronpk in the rare cases when my weechat isn't connected, like last week when my internet went down while i was out of town), I get scrollback when it reconnects to the IRC bouncer
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M-kegan The main spec is there, the actual http poke doc is http://matrix.org/docs/api/client-server/#!/-rooms/send_message
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M-kegan The format of that link is unhelpful because it's too generic, the spec for sending text messages is contained in the spec http://matrix.org/docs/spec/#m-text
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aaronpk can I hard-code an access token into a script? (i.e. do access tokens have unlimited lifetime?)
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M-kegan Yes they are currently unlimited
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aaronpk if I install https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse on my server, will it try to connect to matrix.org or anythign when it first turns on?
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M-kegan no, there's no links to matrix.org itself unless you federate (by joining a room on matrix.org's server) with it
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M-kegan the thing which I like the most about it all is the decentralised nature and persistent history. It's really nice to be able to have everything running on my own server, and to have synced history on both web/mobile
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M-kegan and the extensible API makes it nice to add cheeky hacks on top <_<
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aaronpk looks like all the message history is stored in the database? (sqlite by default with optional postgres support)?
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M-kegan and since we bridge with moznet and freenode, it's completely replaced xchat for me
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M-kegan correct
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M-kegan past history is lazily loaded from participating servers
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aaronpk what would it take to get a file-based log of all the rooms?
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M-kegan file based as in csv style?
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aaronpk close enough
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aaronpk basically one file per room per day, one line per message
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aaronpk (i'm not too concerned with the actual format per line)
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M-kegan that would be hard to do. We originally had just sqlite support but quickly realised we needed a more performant option, hence going down the road of postgres
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M-kegan though it depends what purpose you want it for
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aaronpk doesn't necessarily need to be the canonical store, so like writing a connector would be fine
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M-kegan since you can sniff all the traffic on your local HS using an application service
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M-kegan provided people aren't using E2E
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M-kegan application services are basically separate components which "register" with a HS, the IRC bridge is an application service. The AS makes a webhook and the HS sends it events it is interested in
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M-kegan you specify your interest as a regex, so you can just do .* and get everything if you want it for logging purposes
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M-kegan so it won't be the canonical store, and you don't need to faff with db connections
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M-kegan just webhooks
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M-kegan Application services themselves are pretty quick to write, I wrote a Matrix->Micropub AS at the Edinburgh hack not long ago - https://github.com/Kegsay/matrix-as-micropub
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M-kegan which does the indieauth dance
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aaronpk I remember seeing the demo!
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aaronpk that works by basically having a bot join a room where the bot does the micropub request?
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M-kegan yup, exactly
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M-kegan there's no reason why that couldn't have been a client bot either to be fair
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aaronpk I don't know what that means
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M-kegan just like how IRC client bots can be powerful, so can matrix ones, like the one which splat github/jenkins/jira into Matrix -> https://github.com/Kegsay/Matrix-NEB
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M-kegan application services are not client bots though. They are more like IRC services / extra logic on the actual server
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M-kegan my point is that there's many ways to skin the cat, either by adding a client bot, or by adding extra logic on the server via an application service
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M-kegan and there are examples of both (NEB for client, as-micropub for server)
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aaronpk cool, I might try to install this to see what it takes
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aaronpk how long has this been around?
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M-kegan as you might've guessed, I would be interested in feedback from you
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M-kegan September 2014 is when we first really announced it to the wider world
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M-kegan if you plan on writing an application service, people tend to think https://matrix.org/blog/2015/03/02/introduction-to-application-services/ is a good starter guide
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M-kegan I tend to do application service / client-server stuff, the crypto/federation stuff is not my forte ;3
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@offrayLC Just testing known. #indieWeb seems pretty viable now with Known :-) (twitter.com/_/status/633042729660911616)
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wagle for my wordpress site (my own machine), i was asked if I wanted to use indieauth to login.. how did that work?
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wagle oh, nm
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wagle i forgot i added a dozen plugins
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aaronpk wow I do not understand python dependencies
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aaronpk first error on trying to install matrix: "pip install: error: no such option: --process-dependency-links"
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@benwerd @DeadSuperHero It's #FOSS, and federates discussions using #indieweb tech. There's also a 3rd party Diaspora plugin! @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/633050898407682048)
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aaronpk ran pip upgrade, then got some crazy error I don't understand
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aaronpk i'm gonna update this machine to ubuntu 14.04 before i try anything else
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@benwerd @DeadSuperHero For my money, the http://indiewebcamp.com tech is some of the best - simple, lightweight, extensible. (twitter.com/_/status/633051445240070144)
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Loqi [mention] Ben Werdmüller commented '@DeadSuperHero For my money, the http://indiewebcamp.com tech is some of the best - simple, lightweight, extensible.' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://werd.io/2015/deadsuperhero-for-my-money-the-tech-is-some-of-the)
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Loqi [bridgy] Sean Tilley replied '@benwerd Very cool! Well, maybe my site at deadsuperhero.com will be able to federate directly with you someday. :)' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/633052119021432832)
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Loqi [bridgy] Sean Tilley replied '@benwerd I respect that. Some of the stuff Mike Macgirvin has been doing with #Zot is really incredible, might be worth your interest.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/633051653168435200)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@DeadSuperHero Yep, checked it out. It's all pretty exciting. The trick now is applications beyond social media, I think.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/633051850573398016)
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Loqi [bridgy] Sean Tilley replied '@benwerd That's a big one. RM at the moment is focused on being sort of a hybrid CMS with cloud storage for community-building.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/633052011018084352)
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Loqi [bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@DeadSuperHero PS replying to you (and doing all tweeting) from Known; your replies show up on my site. Semi-federating with silos too.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/633051991636226048)
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[snarfed] aaronpk: aww sorry pip doesn't like you right now!
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[snarfed] btw the new @bridgy prefix is a bit odd, considering we don't have that twitter acct and the wms may not be from twitter anyway
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aaronpk i'm always a little scared to install things in environments i'm not familiar with on new hardware
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[snarfed] not a big deal
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aaronpk oh heh, that's from the nick mapping from IRC to slack
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aaronpk it's still [ bridgy ] in IRC
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[aaronpk] oops
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aaronpk let's try that again... [bridgy] [mention]
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[aaronpk] \o/
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[snarfed] aha
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GWG Evening