#indiewebcamp 2015-08-20

2015-08-20 UTC
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colintedford1 snarfed: brid.gy presents: When APIs Attack!
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colintedford1 snarfed: brid.gy presents: When APIs Attack!
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snarfed hides
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colintedford1 Is there an echo in here?
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colintedford1 Is there an echo in here?
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GWG Is there?
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snarfed yes
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colintedford1 My utterances from /today?beta client seem to have one, so I'm gonna hush.
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colintedford1 My utterances from /today?beta client seem to have one, so I'm gonna hush.
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KevinMarks do you havr it open in 2 tabs colintedford ?
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colintedford1 KevinMarks: I did have a different log page open in another tab
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colintedford1 KevinMarks: I did have a different log page open in another tab
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colintedford1 But apparently closing it didn't help
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colintedford1 But apparently closing it didn't help
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colintedford1 ...or maybe it did
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colintedford1 ...or maybe it did
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colintedford1 *relurks*
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colintedford1 *relurks*
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kylewm watching someone code sounds about as exciting as watching someone fish
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endi there'd probably be more swearing involved than fishing
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endi or is that just me
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kylewm haha I don't know, fishing is pretty frustrating
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kylewm ha, just found a weird bug in Woodwind. when it goes to show a reply to a post on werd.io, it looks to see if it has previously fetched the post so it doesn't have to fetch it again
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kylewm but if that post was previously fetched via RSS then it's a little bit uglier than the h-entry version
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kylewm I regret trying to explain that, but at least it's fixed now (for new posts)
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kylewm !tell Oliver__G are you still having problems with Quill & silo.pub?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@DarkandWondrous RT @kevinmarks: “Some people say vast confusion like it’s a bad thing.” @jamesgleick on twitter #indieweb http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/08/let-twitter-be-twitter.html#Some%20people%20say%20vast%20confusion%20like%20it%E2%80%99s%20a%20bad%20thing (twitter.com/_/status/634189747611566081)
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pokr twitter is updating ''recommended'' users despite all cookies blacklisted. yalla overt fingerprinting
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colintedford !tell tantek: Not "historically important", but "relevant": "♫ Feelin’ wiki-obsessed this week; time for “Jam On It” by Newcleus." :) http://cted.us/s/2621
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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colintedford !tell kylewm: re: "as exciting as watching someone fish": esp. if they're working with angler.js
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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colintedford.com edited /jam (+181) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ correct Colin's first "official" jam (earlier date was likely a backfill)" (view diff)
uwe, todrobbins, mdik_, mdik, gRegorLove, eschnou, endi, KevinMarks__, cweiske, snarfed, loic_m, Jihaisse, friedcell, KevinMarks_, alexhartley, tvn, djwesto and mapkyca joined the channel
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cweiske finally managed to patch up PEAR's Mail_mime and Crypt_GPG libraries to be able to send out pgp-encrypted emails
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cweiske i'm amazed that there are no php libs to send out pgp encrypted mails
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cweiske s/are/were/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: i'm amazed that there were no php libs to send out pgp encrypted mails
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Oliver__G Getting a quill error after using silo to connect by blogger.com blog: I am NOT a techie Help? ---- Slim Application Error The application could not run because of the following error: Details Type: ErrorException Code: 8 Message: Undefined index: me File: /web/sites/quill.p3k.io/controllers/auth.php Line: 163 Trace #0 /web/sites/quill.p3k.io/controllers/auth.php(163): Slim\Slim::handleErrors(8, 'Undefined index...'
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Loqi Oliver__G: kylewm left you a message 7 hours, 7 minutes ago: are you still having problems with Quill & silo.pub? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440033078723
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cweiske is there a library that implements http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp#Key_Lookup_Algorithm ?
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www.danieldemmel.me edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+115) "/* 2015 */" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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Jeena hm so in Edinburgh they have a HWC the week it is not in Portland/SF? It kind of would be cool if we could coordinate all of them on the same day all over the world :D
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Zegnat Jeena: I think rhiaro wanted to do Edinburgh every week rather than every other week, at least now when starting up
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ben_thatmustbeme colintedford: that discussion was more theoretical at the time
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: colintedford left you a message 12 hours, 56 minutes ago: I'd love to see your unified messaging project documented on your user page! I linked to the 2015 Cambridge session from /messaging . http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440023813306
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jeena.net edited /events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club (+319) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/0TknVwUJPO9s4kf4LWJ5EA
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rhiaro Jeena, Zegant: yeah we're weekly, but also Thursdays because Wednesday just isn't an option
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MrClaw yo!
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Jeena I see
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indie-visitor Em... a little confused.
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LanceyWork !tell aaronpk it looks like Loqi will only greet the first indie-visitor in chat. since everyone afterwards has to use a different username (indie-visitor_), Loqi doesn't recognize them
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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LanceyWork hello indie-visitor
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indie-visitor test nick name
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indie-visitor Em...
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geng OK I guess..
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geng Just settle the domain and login problem.
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geng But it seems that I don't need to have a sever managed by myself, just a main page will be enough?
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LanceyWork yeah, as long as you have a webpage somewhere that you can put rel=me links on
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geng It seems that I totally got it wrong....
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LanceyWork ???
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geng You know... the server from digital ocean, ddns, website... it seems that I should use heroku or github.io
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geng to make it simple
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rhiaro hey geng! (Amy)
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rhiaro oh, too late
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legion.ddns.info edited /events/2015-08-20-homebrew-website-club (+11) "/* Edinburgh */" (view diff)
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legion.ddns.info edited /events/2015-08-20-homebrew-website-club (-11) "/* Edinburgh */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] Jeena wrote a post that linked to an event: Homebrew
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Loqi [mention] Amy Guy wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com https://webmention.io/notification/mtuCbm45nqouGezUxjnhVw
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unrelenting.technology created /User:Unrelenting.technology (+752) "Add user page" (view diff)
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voxpelli Jeena: aaronpk: that was a weird looking mention there – no URL or anything?
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Loqi voxpelli: colintedford left you a message on 8/19 at 4:04pm: Did any of the issue-tracker brainstorming starting at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-17#t1431887181504 get into the wiki? I didn't see anything in search for "issue tracker", there' no "issue" page (& search results are of course noisy); nothing linked from /Github . http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440025491165
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voxpelli !tell colintedford The issue tracker discussion was never really documented on the wiki I think – did take some very sketchy notes for myself – I think one could do some interesting things there, especially with Brid.gy-like features
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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unrelenting.technology edited /IRC_People (+62) "Add nick: myfreeweb" (view diff)
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tentonbricks Mornin', folks!
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GWG morning, tentonbricks
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@nobantu 1&1/2 MoreDays of EBReg 4 Internet Identity Workshop Oct 27-29 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xxi-21-2015b-tickets-16995007525 #IIW #UMA #privacy #OpenID #blockchain #indieweb +++! (twitter.com/_/status/634378045625925632)
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@practicingruby This seems to be how we should be internetting: https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/634389889954541568)
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@benwerd @dbounds You can have direct, decentralized conversations with other Known site owners (and anyone with an #indieweb compatible site). (twitter.com/_/status/634391609367379968)
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@RikMende @SocialEurope future is social media + #indieweb principles = decentralized commenting but centralize it around URL's http://www.rmendes.net/2015/goodbye-and-thanks---huge-list-of-glynmoody-great-articles#comments (twitter.com/_/status/634393364524240897)
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tentonbricks So, slack. Super cool concept. Completely useless in my office. So here I am, in a chat room of 1. Looks pretty, at least :)
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GWG You have me though.
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tentonbricks Well, yes, here in IRC.
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tentonbricks But this isn't slack. I have a slack instance up and running just to see what the fuss is all about, but an office that has zero need for it.
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GWG tentonbricks: We just have a slack gateway
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@RikMende @SocialEurope yes, but social comments/interactions do not get back to the original article,that's one of the #indieweb goodies (twitter.com/_/status/634394728109359104)
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@RikMende @SocialEurope it's not yet adopted by any big outlets and it's still in evolution, but do get more information at @IndieWebCampUK @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/634395391006478337)
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@RikMende @SocialEurope it may look like this, but it's way more https://indiewebcamp.com/principles in this case interactions are being pulled back with Brid.gy (twitter.com/_/status/634396076091555841)
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KevinMarks_ Tentonbricks: what does your office use to communicate?
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tentonbricks KevinMarks_: Here's the deal. We use email, which works fine for what we need. I work in local government HR, so there's not a lot of collaboration that's needed between specialists. We are each our own team of 1, essentially.
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tentonbricks I have a bad (?) habit of trying to nose myself into the tech space, when my work is pretty far removed from that world, for the most part.
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LanceyWork i have the same habit though
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LanceyWork i get really excited about new tech i find like slack and immediately want to set it up for everything
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tentonbricks LanceyWork: Exactly. My biggest hurdle, I think, is the fact that I am the low man on the totem pole here, so I have next to zero possibility of influencing change or moving us out of the mid-20th century.
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cleverdevil request for comment -> https://gist.github.com/cleverdevil/809be6b3c20351416bc9
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@RikMende @SocialEurope #indieweb in my opinion goes beyond just comments, it put the creator back in control of it's own data & still share widely (twitter.com/_/status/634398100480782337)
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cleverdevil I'm planning on creating an `h-review` focused plugin for the Known CMS.
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cleverdevil want to be sure I'm on the right track :)
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LanceyWork why not make it an h-entry and use some distinct markup within it to denote that it's a review?
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cleverdevil hmm.
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aaronpk good morning
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Loqi aaronpk: colintedford left you a message on 8/19 at 4:04pm: Did any of the issue-tracker brainstorming starting at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-17#t1431887181504 get into the wiki? I didn't see anything in search for "issue tracker", there' no "issue" page (& search results are of course noisy); nothing linked from /Github . http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440025491165
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Loqi aaronpk: LanceyWork left you a message 4 hours, 7 minutes ago: it looks like Loqi will only greet the first indie-visitor in chat. since everyone afterwards has to use a different username (indie-visitor_), Loqi doesn't recognize them http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-20/line/1440072665117
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cleverdevil LanceyWork: I was using http://microformats.org/wiki/h-review as a guideline, and didn't see anything in there referencing h-entry.
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LanceyWork ah i see
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LanceyWork i didn't know there was a separate h-review
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LanceyWork now i wonder why
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LanceyWork i think it looks correct
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cleverdevil nods
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cleverdevil thanks
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cleverdevil I'll likely have an implementation for Known by the weekend.
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LanceyWork i'm not that familiar with the h-review spec though
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@LanceCoyote @benwerd @dbounds Any website that uses https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention can interact with a Known site, such as mine! (twitter.com/_/status/634403379712688128)
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Loqi [mention] Lance Coyote commented 'Any website that uses webmentions can interact with a Known site, such as mine!' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention (http://lancey.space/2015/08/any-website-that-uses-webmentions-https-indiewebcamp)
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KevinMarks_ Rhiaro, Andrew Marks needs to be let in
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kylewm !tell Oliver__G I cannot reproduce the issue with quill and blogger. Please file an issue on https://github.com/kylewm/feverdream/issues .... it would help a lot to know the url of the blogger site that you are signing in with
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Loqi kylewm: colintedford left you a message on 8/19 at 8:02pm: re: "as exciting as watching someone fish": esp. if they're working with angler.js http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440039723949
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm sad trombone
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rhiaro HWC Edinburgh commences with geng and tbrb
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rhiaro tbrb has been struggling with silly typos in his code
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rhiaro geng has set up relmeauth
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KevinMarks rhiaro: can you let andrewmarks in?
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rhiaro and is deciding how to setup his site, thinking about githubpages to start
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rhiaro KevinMarks: as in, he's outside the door right now?
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KevinMarks yes
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rhiaro tbrb is on his way!
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rhiaro has hurt her knee and can't do stairs
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KevinMarks he says he's in the main foyer
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rhiaro tbrb is on crutches, but nonetheless more mobile
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rhiaro we're on the 2nd floor, open space
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rhiaro I couldn't see anyone I didn't recognise in the main foyer just now..
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rhiaro tbrb is going to the eastmost side door
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tbrb I'm in the foyer by the lifts now
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rhiaro andrewmarks needs to make himself known
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rhiaro RESOLVED
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KevinMarks he looks like this http://www.andrewmarks.media/
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KevinMarks (yes that is known)
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KevinMarks ;)
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tbrb we gooood!
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rhiaro I'm sorry KevinMarks, andrewmarks was flyering for the Festival, I'm going to have to ask him to leave
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KevinMarks_ How do we replace flyering with indieweb?
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rhiaro the flyers contain only urls
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Zegnat URLs on a flyer? I hope they were short, hate typing those things on my mobile whenever I see posters or get flyers
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LanceyWork i hope the flyers were at least mf2 compliant
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Zegnat what is a flyer?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "flyer" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/101f
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Jeena hm there is no geo: URI parser for ruby?
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rhiaro tbrb is discussing possibilities of multi user micropub endpoints, who has talked about this before?
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aaronpk oo pick me
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rhiaro picks aaronpk
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rhiaro ack aaronpk
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aaronpk \o/
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rhiaro andrewmarks is distraction tbrb with IRL conversation right now (rubbish, right?!)
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aaronpk there should be no problem with a multiuser micropub endpoint
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aaronpk the token that is used in the micropub request should identify the user making the request
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aaronpk so the endpoint can do whatever it wants based on which user is making the request
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tbrb aaronpk: I guess the question then runs to what clients would support posting to a micropub endpoint which isn't defined in the user's site
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rhiaro yeah, if the user wanted to post from a client that wasn't the site they wanted to post to, the client needs to discover the right endpoint
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rhiaro I guess easiest is just if the site whose endpoint you're posting to is also the client
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tbrb I guess there could be a couple of ways of doing that - either having clients allow you to override which endpoint you want to post to (just keep autodiscovery as a default maybe) or support discovering of multiple endpoints from a person's site
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tbrb The latter would also allow you to discover what sites a person posts to as well, be that good or bad
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aaronpk yeah, I think most people were thinking they didn't want to have to link to all the places they post on their home page
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aaronpk I think the problem is that so far nobody has had an actual need for this yet, so nobody has tried to build any of the pieces
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tbrb Aye
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rhiaro I guess an alternative would be to be able to tell a client which site you want to publish to, and it sends there instead of to your own endpoint
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camerongray Wait, rhiaro, Homebrew webstie club on today?
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Loqi camerongray: rhiaro left you a message 3 days, 7 hours ago: HWC Edinburgh on Thursday! https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-17/line/1439806081176
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tbrb camerongray: yes
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camerongray So yes I have
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camerongray bollocks
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camerongray On my way
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KevinMarks isn't this the POSSE/syndication via micropub thing again?
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camerongray I've fucked up FreeBSD, I'll leave it to be future Cammy's problem
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rhiaro KevinMarks: not quite - this is instead of, not as well as
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rhiaro publishing on your own site
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KevinMarks well, silo.pub is close to that
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@Covata Want to join the Covata team? Our #London office is #hiring in #marketing! https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/68387760?trk=vsrp_jobs_res_pri_act&trkInfo=VSRPsearchId:795747871440091304267,VSRPtargetId:68387760,VSRPcmpt:primary #JobOpening #Job #Career #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/634417376776323072)
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camerongray rhiaro: Well, I'll be along in a bit
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camerongray Waiting on servers
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rhiaro I'll be here for another hour, camerongray
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aaronpk the closest use case for me needing a multiuser micropub client is posting to things like company blogs or community blogs
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camerongray What are other people planning?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "other people planning" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/101g
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camerongray Leaving office now
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camerongray -> forum
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Zegnat rhiaro: I enjoyed your LD/mf2 post today, nicely done.
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rhiaro thanks, Zegnat
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camerongray rhiaro: at side door, can you let me in please?
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rhiaro camerongray: on way
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camerongray Woo
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rhiaro camerongray arrives at HWC Edinburgh
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moredhel have funsies :) wish I was there
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moredhel may do a little coding from here to feel better
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Zegnat aaronpk: maybe add (and promote) Gothenburg in /topic?
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club (+4) (view diff)
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Zegnat Thanks aaronpk!
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Jeena So next week we'll have a Homebrew Website Club in Gothenburg again. And I should really add Events to my website, this is getting ridiciolous.
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voxpelli tbrb: aaronpk: I have the need for multiple micropub endpoints for my identity, using temporary hackish identities now
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kylewm voxpelli: do they differ by client_id? or something else?
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voxpelli (Adding a rel-me mailto: and sometimes a separate URL with that that's only meant for discovery)
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aaronpk voxpelli: what exactly do you mean?
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voxpelli kylewm: I've multiple sites I post to, but only a single IndieAuth identity
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kylewm ah yeah back to identity vs. authorization
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aaronpk and your intent is to have the same identity across these different sites?
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voxpelli aaronpk: that I want to post to sites without connecting them to my identity/social graph – pretty much the multiuser thing tbrb mentioned
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aaronpk so you *don't* want to tie your main identity to these sites?
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voxpelli aaronpk: exactly
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aaronpk then there's no multiuser thing or any issue
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voxpelli But my Micropub is endpoint still. Rey much expects me to authenticate myself
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voxpelli s/. Rey/ very/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: But my Micropub is endpoint still very much expects me to authenticate myself
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aaronpk if I wanted to post on example.org and not tie it to aaronparecki.com, i'd just go sign in to a micropub client as example.org
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voxpelli And if I were to sign in to example.org as well, how would it know who I was?
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aaronpk that's up to example.org to handle
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voxpelli I disagree
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aaronpk how so? that's always been the case
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voxpelli It's always preferable to authenticate with a URL that represents ones identity I think
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aaronpk but you just said you *don't* want it tied to your identity
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voxpelli I don't want it to be part of
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voxpelli my social graph
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voxpelli But my Micropub system can still expect it privately
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aaronpk can you describe the end result you are looking for? this is too much plumbing speak that is confusing things
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aaronpk there are like 3-4 different situations that all fall under "multi-user" and they are all very different
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voxpelli One simply provides two pieces rather than one: A URL of something one wants to edit and a URL that identifies oneself
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aaronpk that is literally plumbing
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aaronpk what is the *end result* you want
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "*end result* you want" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/101h
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voxpelli s/URL/identifier/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: One simply provides two pieces rather than one: A identifier of something one wants to edit and a identifier that identifies oneself
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voxpelli Not plumbing now?
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aaronpk e.g. "I want a blog post on companyblog.example.org that says the author is aaronparecki.com, and I want to authenticate to clients as aaronparecki.com"
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Loqi gives aaronpk a blog post on companyblog
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voxpelli I want to get access to my news site by identifying myself as myself
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aaronpk vs "a blog post on companyblog.example.org that says the author is aaronpk.example.org and I don't want any assocaitoin with aaronparecki.com"
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voxpelli Just like I get access to the IndieWeb wiki by identifying myself as myself
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aaronpk I don't know what your news site is
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voxpelli Does that matter? It could be The Verge, Techcrunch, whatever?
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aaronpk i mean i just don't understand what you're saying
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aaronpk so you mean you want to post at a shared blog like techcrunch having identified as yourself?
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voxpelli aaronpk: pretty much, wasn't that what you all discussed earlier?
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aaronpk that was one of the situations yeah
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voxpelli so as one of the points there was that no-one has had the need, I pointed out that I do
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aaronpk you're doing this right now then?
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aaronpk can you share the URLs of the sites you are posting to? or is that private?
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voxpelli Yes, but the client support is slim so I can only do it with my own client
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voxpelli Well, voxpelli.com is one of them and while that is technically part of my social graph, it isn't in any way that IndieAuth supports
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voxpelli So I have to use kodfabrik.se to log in there
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aaronpk why isn't that something that indieauth supports?
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voxpelli The multiuser blog is still just a temporary test
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voxpelli aaronpk: because IndieAuth requires all silos to be one step away, mine are two steps away
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aaronpk you mean indieauth.com?
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voxpelli Yes
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aaronpk ok, cause that has little to do with micropub clients
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voxpelli Yes
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voxpelli But the same solution works for that shortcoming as well as for multiuser blogs as I then can pick another entry point into my social graph to auth with
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aaronpk so do you have an examle of a multiuser blog you are trying to post to?
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voxpelli In theory voxpelli.com could be multiuser
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aaronpk I'm not interested in theory :)
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voxpelli How do you identify whether a blog is single or multi-author?
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voxpelli Until the second author post its first post you can't
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aaronpk whether there are posts that say they are authored by different people
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aaronpk voxpelli.com says "Hi, I'm Pelle Wessman and this is my blog." so i'm pretty sure that is not multiuser
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voxpelli There can still be editors etc who are accessing it
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voxpelli I occasionally ask friends for feedback on posts
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aaronpk that's different tho, since you still end up being the author of those articles
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aaronpk here's an example of a multi-user blog http://pdx.esri.com/blog/
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voxpelli They still need Micropub access
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voxpelli Ok?
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aaronpk brb
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voxpelli Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for :P
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voxpelli Jeena: Next week you won't be alone in having HWC in Sweden it looks like ;)
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aaronpk i'm looking for actual examples and use cases for this so that there is something more to talk about other than we think we need this thing
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aaronpk so what you're talking about I wouldn't call a multi-user blog. you want other people to help make edits to your posts.
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aaronpk if your site provides an interface for editing your posts, you don't need micropub at all to let others help make edits, since they can just sign in as themselves.
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aaronpk now if you're talking about having other people use generic micropub clients to make edits to your posts, that's interesting and that involves micropub
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[tantek] aaronpk++ for keeping pushing for concrete use cases!
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[tantek] Rhiaro is HWC edi still going on?
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Loqi [tantek]: colintedford left you a message on 8/19 at 8:00pm: Not "historically important", but "relevant": "♫ Feelin’ wiki-obsessed this week; time for “Jam On It” by Newcleus." :) http://cted.us/s/2621 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440039622859
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Loqi aaronpk has 937 karma
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voxpelli I use my indie-identity to log into eg. the wiki, to many indie readers – to basically all things indie – except for when I want editorial access to a site, then I have to use the indie-identity of that site?
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[tantek] No it's up to that site.
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[tantek] Just like it's up to IWC wiki to let you edit with whatever identity you sign in with.
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[tantek] Nothing new needed for that. Just the other site has to keep an ACL or allow any indieauth sign in etc.
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aaronpk where it gets to be a new thing is if for example we wanted people to be able to use Quill to edit the wiki
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+10) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ Göteborg!" (view diff)
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voxpelli yes
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aaronpk so in that case, I would want to start by talking about what is the desired user flow for people doing this
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[tantek] Which no one does not has asked for
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voxpelli if I want to use a generic Micropub client to edit an arbitrary blog by authentication as myself, then that would require additions
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voxpelli not in the protocol itself, but in how the client does its discovery
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voxpelli [tantek]: I've asked for that? And I've used that with my own clients?
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[tantek] I mean with IWC wiki
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[tantek] Thus for any other sites that want to allow similar editing as IWC wiki, they should implement it like IWC wiki first. Direct web ui to sign in and edit as whoever.
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voxpelli Found the documentation from when this was discussed the last time: http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub-brainstorming#Multiple_Micropub_Endpoints Couldn't find it when I was on the phone
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[tantek] Before worrying about solutions that require new protocols etc.
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aaronpk voxpelli: what micropub clients do you want people to use to help you edit your posts?
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voxpelli aaronpk: eg. Quill
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aaronpk quill can't even edit posts right now
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voxpelli oh, edit, Poetica? ;)
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voxpelli there are no Micropub-clients that supports edits I think so that's a bit premature, I admit
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aaronpk that's my point, this is too early to talk about changing the protocol to support a thing that isn't even supported in single-user mode
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aaronpk hmm just noticed poetica's "send to wordpress" feature... wonder if I could talk Blaine in to adding "publish via micropub"
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voxpelli I'm not talking about changing the protocol
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voxpelli I'm talking about clients having additional siscovery steps, just like you, tbrb and rhiaro did before
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voxpelli s/siscovery/discovery/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: I'm talking about clients having additional discovery steps, just like you, tbrb and rhiaro did before
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aaronpk yeah I just think that should be driven by actual real-world use cases
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voxpelli additional or alternate – where one can either discover additional sites to publish to or authenticate with alternative identities
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aaronpk I mean I'm definitely interested in it, but haven't actually had a need for it myself yet
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voxpelli well, I feel that I have use cases for it, but apparently you see it another way
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aaronpk until you have a client that can edit, you can't have a use case for having that client support multiple users
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voxpelli the edits was just a minor little side line of the discussion – the main case is for many users to be able to add content to many sites
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aaronpk ok so what site are you referring to then?
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voxpelli the way I have it set up right now I'm authenticated as myself in Editorial.app and I'm allowed to edit all of my sites through that one authentication
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aaronpk that soundsl ike something totally different
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voxpelli one identity – access to many sites
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voxpelli the many-to-many relationship between identities and access to sites
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voxpelli we should probably drop the discussion though, getting nowhere, I will just continue down my trail on my own instead
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aaronpk I realize this is important, I'm just trying to ground it with actual examples
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Loqi yea
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Zegnat I think aaronpk and voxpelli are coming from two different angles here? voxpelli would like to solve his problem with an indieweb solution, and aaronpk wants to document a solution for others on the indieweb? Thus: documentation first versus implementation first
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aaronpk eh, I'm mostly trying to get voxpelli to actually describe his problem in concrete terms, rather than jumping to describing the problem with a possible solution
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voxpelli "As personal user X I want to be with a generic client be able to publish a post to larger site Y, to which I've been given permission to post"
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voxpelli s/to be/to/
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aaronpk great
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: "As personal user X I want to with a generic client be able to publish a post to larger site Y, to which I've been given permission to post"
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aaronpk interestingly, you can do that with Quill right now, assuming site Y supports it
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aaronpk you'd sign in as "site Y" on Quill, Quill would discover that site's authorization endpoint and direct the user to it
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aaronpk site Y would create an authorization endpoint that then *authenticates* the user, asking them to sign in as their own identity
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aaronpk after site Y returns the user to Quill, Quill would see that user logged in as "site Y", and when it makes the micropub request to site Y's micropub endpoint, that endpoint would be able to tell which user was actually making that request
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voxpelli yeah, the micropub client wouldn't really see me as a personal user
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aaronpk right. does it need to?
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aaronpk there might be a UX reason that it needs to, but I don't know what that is yet
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voxpelli if "personal user Y", my colleague, uses my computer to publish something but forgets to log out – then we're in for an awkward ride – would be impossible to know as what author something were going to be published
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voxpelli and if the micropub client were to want to have personal settings connected to their account, then that would require it as well
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aaronpk great
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voxpelli I guess some indie-readers are kind of micropub-clients in that they can micropub-publish interactions, but also use the same authentication to save which feeds one follows
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kylewm would there be any value to Woodwind letting you authorize micropub with a different identity than you are signed in with?
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Jeena voxpelli, I won't? Will there be another one?
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kylewm right now it just uses the same user URL, but it certainly doesn't have to
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voxpelli kylewm: perhaps rather to let one add a different site to publish to and discover the micropub-endpoint from that one instead – depends on what Woodwind publishes I guess
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voxpelli Jeena: Malmö will likely be stepping us as well :)
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kylewm voxpelli: yeah that's what i mean, when you go into the Settings page for micropub, instead of clicking "Authorize Micropub", it would have another input for user url
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Jeena wohoo!
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aaronpk I was thinking it would be more useful if the reader were more like tweetdeck, where you can have multiple feeds from different accounts
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voxpelli I think both :)
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voxpelli like: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/304233/micropub-client.png
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KevinMarks how about allowing multiple micropub targets, kylewm
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kylewm OK how about this
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Zegnat Jeena, I am considering if I can do 1 HWC every 2 months, but no promises.
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kylewm there couldbe another authorization_endpoint that takes an existing user url and authorization code and re-confirms that they are who they say they are
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kylewm (i.e. with indieauth.com)
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voxpelli kylewm: micropub has a way to confirm a user has access
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voxpelli would that do?
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kylewm so you register with the site beforehand, like with the wiki -- you login and create an account and the wiki stores an auth code for you
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Jeena Zegnat, that would be cool, perhaps we can make a fond where people can send money in for things like that
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colintedford Oh wow, I run a group Wordpress site, and the flow aaronpk described makes me feel freer to use something else in the future
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colintedford aaronpk++
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Loqi colintedford: voxpelli left you a message 5 hours, 49 minutes ago: The issue tracker discussion was never really documented on the wiki I think – did take some very sketchy notes for myself – I think one could do some interesting things there, especially with Brid.gy-like features http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-20/line/1440080488081
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Loqi aaronpk has 938 karma
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Jeena we had that in the SELFHTML community back then, there were people who had more than enough money and there were those studenrs withoud money but wanted to attend the yearly meetups so we payed their expenses, it was quite cool
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GWG colintedford: Did I hear WordPress?
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kylewm I don't think my idea works out actually
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kylewm :(
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GWG I really should take tantek's advice and flag for it
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Jeena I once was one of those students too ^^
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colintedford GWG: just talking about being able to move off of it, sorry
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kylewm I was basically just thinking, the site would remember the relationship... "multiuserblog.com/profiles/kylewm is identified by kylewm.com", then it would delegate the authorization_endpoint bit to indieauth
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kylewm so you'd sign into the micropub endpoint with multiuserblog.com/profiles/kylewm, but it would know that your ID is your personal domain
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Zegnat Jeena: the fund thing might be cool, but how feasible is it for weekly/bi-weekly meets?
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Jeena even if it only works once a month or every other month it would still be cool
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gRegorLove GWG or other WordPress users: What theme directory sites do you recommend? All I remember is "avoid woo themes"
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colintedford Where should "issue tracker" brainstorming (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-17#t1431887181504) go on the wiki, esp. in light of a later suggestion by Vendan to generalize to something like "request" (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-17/line/1431918555923)?
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colintedford There wasn't really any discussion around the "request" idea
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colintedford gRegorLove: Official WP only for free themes.
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colintedford There was a study a while back showing that free themes from other places very often contained malicious code.
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colintedford (& even if they don't, they tend not to get updated)
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gRegorLove Yeah, I'll definitely be vetting and likely minimizing whatever theme I get.
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gRegorLove I just need the design really, not the plugins and crap
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colintedford For paid themes, I have no info.
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GWG gRegorLove: The official repo is what I use
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gRegorLove Meaning https://wordpress.org/themes/, correct?
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colintedford gRegorLove: "official repo" is what I meant by "official WP", btw
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gRegorLove Or just the twenty* official themes
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gRegorLove ?
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colintedford https://wordpress.org/themes/, not just the 20
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gRegorLove Probably worth noting the dangers of free themes on the wiki
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gRegorLove If it's not already
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gRegorLove I was being #lazyindieweb
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colintedford oh yeah
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colintedford making a todo note. don't have cite handy & should get back to work anyway
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voxpelli colintedford: I would rather see "issue" being generalized into a "todo"
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colintedford voxpelli: OK. It sounds like maybe there needs to be a little more discussion around generalizing.
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colintedford I'm thinking of putting the brainstorming (including generalizing suggestions) in /issue-tracker for now
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colintedford & then we can make a new page when/if we have some consensus about generalizing
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voxpelli sounds good
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gRegorLove A podcast episode of interest to those tired of email: https://gimletmedia.com/episode/22-bonus-episode-the-man-who-refused-to-email/
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tantek what a great article name :D
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aaronpk definitely gonna listen to that later
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gRegorLove It's half about a Buzzfeed journalist that doesn't do *personal* email anymore
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gRegorLove And half people's voicemails they left the show about "Email Debt Forgiveness Day" on April 30th.
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tantek interesting anecdotal observation re: different forms / variations of POSSEing
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tantek I get way more interaction on the FB POSSE copy of my post when I directly POSSE from my site via Bridgy Publish, instead of the POSSE to FB via Twitter POSSE copy.
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gRegorLove Do they show up differently on FB?
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colintedford tantek: does the Bridgy Publish version include more of the post?
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snarfed colintedford: probably often yes, since it skips the 140 char twitter middleman
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snarfed cleverdevil, you and kylewm should talk re h-review! e.g. https://kylewm.com/2015/08/read-ruth-ozeki-a-tale-for-the-time-being-i-loved , https://kylewm.com/2015/08/read-ursula-k-le-guin-the-word-for-world-is-forest
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cleverdevil probably, considering I'm making progress: http://share.cleverdevil.io/2015/08/14-32-45.png
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cleverdevil :)
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gRegorLove Ooh, a Known h-review plugin?
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tantek Unknown if this is because of the difference in appearance between how the FB POSSE copy is created, or if FB shows Bridgy Publish posts more often than Twitter posts.
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aaronpk it's facebook, you'll never know :P
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aaronpk and it might change tomorrow
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tantek gRegorLove: yes they show up slightly differently, and the Bridgy Publish posts are *editable* whereas the cross-posts from Twitter to FB are *not* editable (no idea why)
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KartikPrabhu maybe because Twitter posts are not editable
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KartikPrabhu so it seems consistent for FB to not allow edits to the copy
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snarfed twitter exposes analytics to users; i wonder if fb does
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gRegorLove snarfed: I bet they did, but later removed it. ;)
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snarfed lol
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tantek one limitation (why I can't automate this with Bridgy Publish yet)
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tantek * Twitter -> FB preserves whitespace (e.g. linebreaks)
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tantek * Bridgy Publish indieweb -> FB collapses whitespace (including linebreaks into normal spaces that collapse with other spaces).
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snarfed tantek: oh no, really? that's sad, and not intentional
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tantek does anyone else use Bridgy Publish to POSSE notes to FB?
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tantek issue filed if anyone else wants this! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/446
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snarfed didn't bridgy publish to fb preserve whitespace at some point?
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snarfed could have sworn it did
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tantek I have memories of editing past posts for this purpose too
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tantek past FB POSSE copies created by Bridgy Publish that is
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snarfed ah, by notes you mean posts, not facebook notes (a specific different product feature of theirs)
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tantek right I mean /notes
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snarfed yeah. it didn't originally preserve whitespace; i added it later
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snarfed yeah, confusing
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snarfed ohh i wonder if it only does it for articles
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snarfed easy fix if so
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snarfed background is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/291
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tantek ooh just got a Twitter failbot - don't see those too often
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tantek took four reloads to fix
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kylewm snarfed: tantek: the issue is that tantek uses literal \n's for whitespace right? whereas Bridgy expects html and converts it to plaintext
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tantek sending literal \n's to Twitter works to preserve whitespace there, and then Twitter likely sends the same literal \n's to FB which works to preserve it there
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tantek just saying Bridgy should handle it similarly
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snarfed oh huh, maybe? if tantek uses e.g. css white-space: pre*, bridgy definitely doesn't include a css rendering engine :P
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tantek neither does Twitter's API :P
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snarfed how do you know?
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tantek hah!
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snarfed oh, you give it plain text. very different use case
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tantek how is that different?!?
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aaronpk cause twitter isn't getting your post text from your html
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snarfed huh, yes, tantek uses white-space: pre-wrap
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aaronpk the problem is with html you don't know if the whitespace is intentional or not
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kylewm I mean tantek, you're giving bridgy an e-content right? how's it supposed to know your post isn't really html?
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tantek aaronpk that's spec'd in the parser
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snarfed yeah css support is very unlikely to make into bridgy publish
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tantek nothing to do with css. sigh.
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kylewm ftr, aaronpk uses whitespace-pre too
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snarfed good point tantek, i see what you mean. if the e-content has meaningful whitespace, the css doesn't matter
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snarfed at least to an mf2 parser
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tantek right
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snarfed man i could have *sworn* this worked at one point
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kylewm so does html2text strip out the whitespace?
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snarfed never mind. yeah, it did work, just probably with html only
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snarfed kylewm: i'm guessing yes. maybe there's an option
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snarfed ok time to move this to the issue, at least for me :P
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tantek snarfed - as you prefer!
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tantek (hence why I filed the issue before bringing it here :) )
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snarfed oh no, feel free to keep discussing here, i'm just going to start capturing
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snarfed (like wikifying)
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KevinMarks right, but it often has meaningless whitespace too
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snarfed good point
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tantek kevinmarks - false. I've never had meaningless whitespace show up in my Twitter POSSE copies of my notes
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tantek so no the "often" is false
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snarfed i expect KevinMarks means other people's post, not yours
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KevinMarks I'm talking about html posts in general not your site
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tantek I'm talking about /note posts in particular
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snarfed basically, to determine *whether* whitespace in an e-content is meaningful, i still need to parse css and handle selectors...?
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tantek not "html posts in general"
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tantek snarfed - absolutely not
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snarfed great! i'm all ears then...
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tantek if it's a /note, then whitespace is relevant, per http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking
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KevinMarks so how do we mark a note vs a post?
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tantek Kevinmarks /note is a /post
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KevinMarks o_O a note vs a not-note, if 'note' is defined as whitespace significant
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tantek KevinMarks - that's one of the oldest FAQs on the wiki O_o http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm
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snarfed interesting! man, now i'm curious how many different real world notes implementations actually use meaningful whitespace as per that recommendation
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aaronpk there's more to it than that. you have to ignore whitespace and html tags when comparing name and content
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snarfed yet another reason i want a real /indie-stats project
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tantek (though I'd be willing to expand that to empty h-entry names as well - if someone is willing to document real world use-cases)
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Loqi gives snarfed a real
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KevinMarks twitter also ignored whitespace fro years
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tantek Kevinmarks - so? the point is they saw the value, and added it.
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tantek Twitter also didn't used to auto-link @-names, URLs etc.
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aaronpk this also gets it wrong sometimes, haven't tracked down why https://github.com/aaronpk/Monocle/blob/master/lib/mf2_feed_parser.php#L26
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tantek you're not seriously using "ignored ... for years" as any kind of justification for anything right?
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kylewm for the record, I really dislike the idea of codifying twitter's non-html-whitespace convention as our best practice
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kylewm it seems like that comes from the Twitter via SMS days
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KevinMarks hm
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tantek aaronpk, there's no "have to ignore whitespace and html tags when comparing" because those are already taken care of (preserving whitespace, and text only property value) by the mf2 parser
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aaronpk i have not found that to be true in practice
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KevinMarks that heuristic is a bit odd with implied name, but OK
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@stevepurkiss @Vecchi_Paolo ...will ask around at next week's @indiewebcamp #homebrewwebsiteclub re mesh networks in btown (twitter.com/_/status/634486160388161536)
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aaronpk it's a very messy process imo
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tantek KevinMarks - happy to analyze examples of what you are claiming is "odd" or "often"
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KevinMarks so let me read this back to you
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tantek no - not interested in rehash of your arguments. provide URLs to examples that back up what you're saying.
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tantek since I have already done so (and do so with many / most of my notes that I publish and POSSE)
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KevinMarks if I parse an h-entry and content==name, I should set whitespace-pre when displaying it?
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tantek s/content==name/if it is a note
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tantek s/whitespace-pre/white-space:pre-wrap
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tantek per http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking
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tantek if you have examples of /note posts that you'd like to share for purposes of analysis, please add them to http://indiewebcamp.com/note#IndieWeb_Examples
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KevinMarks hm, I used pre-line on willsomeone, but I can't remember why
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KevinMarks possibly from copy/paste of html
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tantek.com edited /note (+202) "/* Indieweb whitespace thinking */ note POSSE whitespace preserved by Twitter API, link to Bridgy Publish issue" (view diff)
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gRegorLove My notes do not really preserve whitespace. I use an auto-<p> script that converts two new lines into a <p> and one new line into a <br />, but that's all.
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gRegorLove I think it collapses 3+ new lines into two, so there's not extraneos <p> or <br>
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gRegorLove s/extraneos/extraneous/
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: I think it collapses 3+ new lines into two, so there's not extraneous <p> or <br>
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gRegorLove Using http://ma.tt/scripts/autop/ basically
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tantek how do you POSSE to Twitter?
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gRegorLove Bridgy Publish
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gRegorLove I have thought it would be cool to have more robust whitespace support in my notes, but it's not a high priority item.
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gRegorLove The POSSE tweet does seem to only have one new line instead of two, but that doesn't bother me. http://gregorlove.com/2015/08/revisiting-imogen-heaps-speak/ vs https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/634129399634202624
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@gRegorLove ♫ Revisiting Imogen Heap’s Speak for Yourself. Still great. “Clear the Area” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IFdn2sEg2U&feature=youtu.be (twitter.com/_/status/634129399634202624)
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kylewm.com edited /note (+158) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add me, so I can officially complain about white-space: pre-wrap as a policy" (view diff)
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tantek lol
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gRegorLove Haha
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kylewm.com edited /note (+252) "/* IndieWeb Whitespace Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek hey rhiaro when did you start posting /note posts on your own site?
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kylewm big gap in there between bnvk and barnaby
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tantek kylewm: I don't understand the resistance to posting notes on one's own site (instead of Twitter)
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tantek e.g. adactio was strongly against it for a long time (years), because he didn't care about tweets or something. and then at some point he sharply flipped.
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tantek ah, peer pressure it was
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tantek https://adactio.com/journal/6826/
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kylewm or the mike monteiro argument about not collecting all your fingernail clippings....
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KartikPrabhu that is more about self-discipline
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gregorlove.com edited /note (+273) "/* IndieWeb Whitespace Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek I'm willing to bet that *everyone* that switches from Twitter posting to personal site note-posting starts writing *noticeably* better quality notes
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KartikPrabhu if you put your fingernail clippings into Twitter then why not on your own site?
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tantek thus the clippings argument does not apply in practice
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gRegorLove oh oh. Is there a term for wikifying before tantek prompts? :)
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KartikPrabhu pre-tanteking?
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tantek I think it's just called /wikifying :P
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tantek and since I wrote that article ... ;)
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snarfed tantek: i wonder if the whitespace thing is specific to notes at all...?
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tantek snarfed - like many things here, I based in on a silo "innovation"
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snarfed e.g. http://tantek.com/2015/232/t1/eat-without-digital-devices isn't a note, but the (non-html) whitespace is still meaningful, ie you'd want to preserve it when posseing, right?
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tantek what do you mean it's not a note?
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gregorlove.com edited /note (+6) "/* IndieWeb Whitespace Examples */ bold domain name" (view diff)
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tantek I do preserve it when POSSEing e.g.: https://twitter.com/t/status/634464248014479361
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@t When did you last eat without using digital devices at all*? Me: last night picnic, Dolores Park. *Except ... http://tantek.com/2015/232/t1/eat-without-digital-devices (twitter.com/_/status/634464248014479361)
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tantek (nm Loqi collapsing it - view it on Twitter)
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Loqi yeah!
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snarfed right, exactly my point
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snarfed i guess i don't see an explicit note type when mf2 parsers parse it, e.g. https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=http://tantek.com/2015/232/t1/eat-without-digital-devices
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snarfed but i'm mostly ignorant/agnostic of post types, so i may just not be interpreting right
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tantek post types are nearly all implied
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kylewm mf2util can tell it's a note, fwiw
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kartikprabhu.com edited /note (+227) "/* IndieWeb Whitespace Examples */ add me to whitespace debate" (view diff)
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kylewm content[value] ~= name
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tantek what is mf2util?
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Loqi mf2util is a Microformats 2 utility for Python, commonly used to extract common features in comments and reply-contexts https://indiewebcamp.com/mf2util
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kylewm i.e., the output from mf2util doesn't include a title https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=http://tantek.com/2015/232/t1/eat-without-digital-devices
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tantek kylewm: what function is that in mf2util?
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snarfed got it. and i do see that you use html for whitespace on articles, e.g. http://tantek.com/2015/227/b1/alaska-cruise-log-skagway
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snarfed ok i retract :P
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tantek yes
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kylewm tantek: https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L205
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KartikPrabhu tantek: is_name_a_title ^
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kylewm is_name_a_title
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snarfed my notes definitely have meaningless whitespace, sadly, and i expect i'm far from alone in that
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snarfed oh well
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KartikPrabhu I also re-use that function in hfeed2atom
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tantek.com edited /note (+148) "/* Note Type Algorithm */ Implementations mf2util" (view diff)
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kylewm so here's a question -- why don't notes that have meaningful whitespace and no HTML use p-content instead of e-content?
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tantek kylewm: images and links
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tantek basically, the output of auto_link
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KartikPrabhu yup. for e.g. photo posts
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kylewm such cognitive dissonance!
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kylewm i'm so confused why you want to convert urls to <a> and <img> (unlike twitter) but are opposed to converting \n's to <br>'s
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tantek kylewm: why? typical silo note implementations auto_link and sometimes auto_embed too
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tantek twitter does auto_link URLs. I don't see the confusion
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tantek and FB auto-embeds .jpg etc.
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kylewm so the whole rationale is that twitter and facebook use white-space: pre-wrap?
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KartikPrabhu also adding an avatar on @-tagging
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tantek kylewm: it is one of many silo "innovations", very much related to UX
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tantek above and beyond all the backend protocol fights that the blogosophere / federated social web folks wasted time on
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think kylewm is asking if url -> <a> is ok then \n -> <br/> should also be ok
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gRegorLove indieweb ASCII art is the real use-case here
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tantek gRegorLove: I think you need /custom-post-style support for that for a font-family:monospace
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kylewm twitter doesn't autolink urls in the API though -- they give you the plain-text note. the autolinking is purely for display
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kylewm so if you are following their example, you should use p-content and expect consumers to autolink it
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tantek kylewm - just like the mf2 parser output JSON gives you both the hyperlinked e-content HTML and the plain text "value"
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colintedford.com edited /WordPress (+554) "/* Themes */ Use caution w/ free themes from outside the official directory." (view diff)
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tantek kylewm - nope - my auto_link function is better than theirs
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kylewm thanks KartikPrabhu that's exactly what i was trying to articulate
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tantek <br/> substitutions possibility already covered in https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Indieweb_whitespace_thinking ages ago
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kylewm tantek: and my autolink function is better than yours (includes new TLDs), so let me do the autolinking
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kylewm :P
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tantek kylewm: that's my point! having both the HTML and the "value" in the mf2 JSON output lets you the consumer decide!
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tantek e.g. you could even do that just for notes
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tantek (presumably in Woodwind - e.g. if it's a note, then use the "value" and auto-link
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tantek )
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kylewm that's not my point though, I want your content in all its html-formatted glory, so it looks nice in woodwind
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tantek does your auto_link also /auto-embed ?
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kylewm no, auto-embedding happens elsewhere
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tantek huh? that doesn't make any sense
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kylewm which?
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tantek in either case you're inserting <a> or <img> tags into the text
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tantek why distinguish?
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tantek or <iframe> etc.
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aaronpk I actually don't like inlining img tags or videos, I prefer to show them at the bottom of the post
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aaronpk so my autoembed finds URLs it recognizes, then puts those at the bottom after hte post text
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kylewm yeah mine show up at the bottom of the note, more like how Facebook does it
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tantek FB only shows *one*
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colintedford gRegorLove: Indiweb ASCII art http://cted.us/s/3435 mangled in Facebook preview https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155697514065643&id=231529070642
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tantek that's not an auto-embed, that's just a /link-preview of the first link
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tantek similarly with twitter, it too is not auto-embedding, it is merely doing a /link-preview of the last link
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tantek (yes they are inconsistent on that)
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aaronpk okay then I don't like auto-embedding, only link preview
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tantek and they both only handle ONE
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rhiaro tantek: February ish maybe
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kylewm tantek: poppping back up to "<br/> substitions covered ages ago" -- ok awesome, how can I as a feed reader/Bridgy Publisher distinguish between the two cases
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rhiaro I'll look tomorrow
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tantek rhiaro: add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/note#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek you'll be the first in 2015
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rhiaro I noticed the quality of my posts is different
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rhiaro They're more for myself
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gRegorLove colintedford: Nice. It's not really indie, but I have http://tilde.club/~gRegorLove/ :)
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rhiaro Sometimes I don't posse to twitter
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tantek that's fine
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tantek but do you *only* write to Twitter by POSSEing?
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rhiaro Sometimes more banal, sometimes less
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rhiaro Yes
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rhiaro Unless it's a reply I have to crank out quick on my phone
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colintedford.com edited /WordPress/Security (+547) "/* Themes */ Use caution w/ free themes from outside the official directory." (view diff)
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tantek rhiaro: in that case you own your /note posts at least, and you should add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/ownyourdata#IndieWeb_Examples as of the date when you started doing that
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tantek rhiaro: it's ok to treat replies differently, /reply is a different post type than /note
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tantek with different UI etc. requirements
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rhiaro Remind me again if I don't do it tomorrow
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rhiaro Going to sleep soon
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colintedford gRegorLove: Nice. Why not PESOS that? ;)
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rhiaro Gotta fix a bug aaronpk found first though
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tantek heh - I know that feeling
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tantek kylewm: note that <br/> substitution is insufficient for white-space preservatin
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tantek s/preservatin/preservation
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kylewm: note that <br/> substitution is insufficient for white-space preservation
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tantek so it's not really a reasonable alternative to consider
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tantek s/reasonable/workable
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Loqi tantek meant to say: so it's not really a workable alternative to consider
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kylewm why do I need to preserve more whitespace than linebreaks or one space?
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kylewm if i want more, i put it in a <pre> block
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KartikPrabhu note writing UI might not have "insert HTML" in it
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tantek kylewm: leading white space on a line is common
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aaronpk (citation needed)
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colintedford.com edited /GitHub (+20) "/* See Also */ issue tracker" (view diff)
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kylewm honestly i'm really surprised you are arguing against HTML
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tantek heh, perhaps not "common"
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kylewm is that a mischaracterization?
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tantek aaronpk: here's the most recent example of use of leading whitespace on a line from 4 days ago: http://tantek.com/2015/228/t3/bim-definition
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kylewm html has certainly been sufficient for anything I've ever wanted to post on my site
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tantek kylewm: same reason people like writing / storing markdown instead of HTML
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tantek kylewm: it's a matter of once you enable the feature, you find you use it more
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tantek once Twitter starting preserving whitespace, and I noticed, and coded support for it on my site, my notes got far more interesting in that regard
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tantek I even went back and added line-breaks to a few older posts that were inline lists
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tantek which made them MUCH more readable
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kylewm I get that, I preserve whitespace in my tweets too
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: tantek: I think the issue with this argument is that you guys are not addressing the authoring of notes. Usually notes are not authored in HTML
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no - the link I keep pasting to /note DOES address authoring
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KartikPrabhu aah the wiki page does yes
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's my point. haven't really heard any new arguments that the wiki page doesn't cover.
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tantek so far I feel like all I've been doing is responding by walking through fragment links on the wiki
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tantek at least we have more diverse examples documented now
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kylewm tantek: no, you said one of the fragment links on the wiki wasn't valid because it didn't cover leading whitespace
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tantek no the <br/> option documents that
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tantek or thought it did
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kylewm if there are two possible ways to format notes, that's ok, i'd just like to be able to distinguish between them
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tantek ah - it only documents the "wouldn't handle multiple sequential space characters. " problem with the <br/> approach
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tantek good catch
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kylewm if there's only one valid way to format notes, then i need to think about if i want to argument about it anymore
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tantek that makes sense - and per documentation of those notes permalinks - multiple ways of formatting note whitespace do seem to exist
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tantek well two anyway
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KartikPrabhu I don't see the issue with mulitple ways of formatting. What is the use-case of distinguishing them?
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tantek I'm not sure any argument for/against "validity" from any point of purity etc. makes any sense
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: woodwind
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tantek.com edited /note (+30) "/* Indieweb whitespace thinking */ br substitutions also don't handle leading spaces on a line." (view diff)
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kylewm e.g., see tantek's notes with whitespace in woodwind are all collapsed
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KartikPrabhu what about woodwind? using e-content should suffice
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KartikPrabhu right. so adding white-space: pre-wrap with e-content should work
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kylewm this link only works if you are logged in and subscribed to him http://reader.kylewm.com/?entry=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2015%2F232%2Ft1%2Feat-without-digital-devices
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tantek kylewm: could a heuristic as dumb as if content has line-breaks AND content DOES NOT have <br/> then white-space:pre-wrap ?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: try adding white-space: pre-wrap on .content in woodwind, and you'll see the issue
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I believe the problem is that white-space:pre-wrap may add TOO MUCH linebreaks etc. on other notes
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tantek notes that already have <br>s in their e-content
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tantek just guessing there
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kylewm yeah
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kylewm and random indentations
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gRegorLove I wondered why tantek's notes were collapsed in Woodwind. Makes sense now.
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colintedford.com edited /GitHub (-93) "/* Colin Tedford */ rm uncertainty re: posting issue as reply to repo/issues/" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: yeah that heuristic sounds like it would work
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snarfed sadly i think most heuristics would fail on my notes
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snarfed they often have many different html elements, many extra line breaks due to authoring, and other oddities
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tantek.com edited /note (+584) "/* Note Display */ try a Displaying Whitespace section per different methods notes publish whitespace" (view diff)
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snarfed (since meaningful-whitespace-in-notes was news to me today)
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tantek snarfed, I'm guessing that you still have <br>(s) in such notes?
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snarfed and/or <p>s, <em>s, <blockquote>s, etc
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tantek.com edited /note (+52) "/* Displaying Whitespace */ or P" (view diff)
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snarfed so if we expand it to trigger on any html, then maybe...but i expect that's too broad for others
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tantek yes gRegorLove pointed out P
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tantek snarfed: no that breaks per auto-linking
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tantek not sure about blockquote - that's a good question
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tantek <em> doesn't matter - shouldn't affect it
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tantek snarfed: do you have any notes with <blockquote> markup?!?
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snarfed anyway. none of this is an itch for me personally. just saying my notes flagrantly disobey that meaningful whitespace recommendation
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tantek those aren't /quotation posts?
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snarfed tantek: sure! many. e.g. current top h-entry on my front page
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tantek that are not articles with names?
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snarfed oh god, who knows. i really avoid thinking about post types. not really interested in them
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2015-08-19_15203
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cleverdevil feedback requested:
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cleverdevil http://share.cleverdevil.io/2015/08/16-09-24.png
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cleverdevil http://share.cleverdevil.io/2015/08/16-10-31.png
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2015-06-19_14601
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snarfed many more
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gRegorLove On the icons, cleverdevil?
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tantek snarfed: https://snarfed.org/2015-06-19_14601 is a /quotation :P
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snarfed ok. the other one too?
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cleverdevil gRegorLove: yeah, on the whole look/layout.
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cleverdevil the use of the thumbs up icon for the overall content type
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cleverdevil and then the form itself for creating / editing reviews.
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snarfed this just makes me even more reluctant to add much implicit-post-type logic to bridgy publish
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gRegorLove Not sure about thumbs up, given the FB association with "liking"
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snarfed if i can't motivate myself to learn and grok them :/
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gRegorLove I don't have a good alternate offhand, though.
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tantek snarfed is there any currently?
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cleverdevil gRegorLove: I also could use a star or half-star.
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gRegorLove The form looks good
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tantek likely not going to be needed (much?) unless/until Bridgy Publish start supporting POSSEing to Tumblr
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tantek cross that bridge then ;)
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snarfed tantek: definitely some here and there. e.g. https://www.brid.gy/about#microformats
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tantek snarfed - your post https://snarfed.org/2015-08-19_15203 has <p> in it so that would get that treatment - would work fine
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tantek snarfed - better question, do you have any posts with <blockquote> WITHOUT <p> or <br> ?
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snarfed probably not
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tantek the presence of in-reply-to, u-like-of, and p-rsvp is pretty explicit markup. not really implying anything there.
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snarfed nah i meant the part that chooses between e-content, p-name, and p-summary
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snarfed i think i've successfully managed to please no one with the current logic :P
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tantek snarfed - really? the current logic seems to work ok except for the whitespace problem ;)
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snarfed nah i get a constant trickle of people asking for changes, or for why their posts don't publish like they should
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snarfed no matter thoughy. one silver lining of all this is, if kylewm gets interested enough to implement any of these heuristics in mf2util or similar, i'll happily blindly use them
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colintedford.com created /issue_tracker (+837) "stub w/ dfn, silo example, link to brainstorming, & short "see also"" (view diff)
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colintedford !tell aaronpk, elf-pavlik, Vendan, voxpelli: I stubbed /issue-tracker . Haven't captured your brainstorming there yet.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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colintedford Vendan_ ^
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colintedford.com edited /code (+20) "/* See Also */ issue tracker" (view diff)
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tantek colintedford: is posting issues on your own site a personal itch for you?
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tantek the IRC discussion is nearly all theoretical handwaving
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colintedford tantek: No, I don't have any code to have issues on.
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colintedford But I hand-POSSE to/backfeed from Github, & would love for people to own their own issues.
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tantek I think aaronpk POSSEs comments to Github
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colintedford Yup
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tantek what in particular do you hand-POSSE to/backfeed from Github?
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colintedford issues & replies to issues.
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colintedford https://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub#Colin_Tedford
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snarfed man, i'd love github posse/backfeed too. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/333
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tantek thanks colintedford
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tantek.com edited /issue_tracker (+1395) "challenge the mostly theoretical issue tracker discussion, while citing actual real world attempts at indie publishing of code, issues, replies to issues" (view diff)
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cleverdevil tantek: https://cleverdevil.io/2015/blood-rites-book-six-of-the-dresden-files
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cleverdevil take a look at the markup :D
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cleverdevil more to the point -> http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcleverdevil.io%2F2015%2Fblood-rites-book-six-of-the-dresden-files
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tantek looking very good!
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cleverdevil feel free to file issues
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cleverdevil I'll add it to the various wikis tomorrow, I've gotta run for the day shortly.
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cleverdevil https://github.com/cleverdevil/Known-Reviews
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tantek it looks like the h-card inside the review is just an image "https:\/\/cleverdevil.io\/gfx\/users\/default-00.png" with no name?
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cleverdevil hmm... weird.
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tantek just a heads-up
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cleverdevil I'll have to look at that :P
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tantek but yeah definitely add that example http://microformats.org/wiki/h-review#Examples_in_the_Wild
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tantek and add an "Implementations" section right below that for the plugin - feel free to copypaste the "Implementations" section from h-recipe to get it started: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-recipe#Implementations
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tantek cleverdevil++ for https://github.com/cleverdevil/Known-Reviews !!!
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Loqi cleverdevil has 3 karma
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tantek (that's some very hard-earned karma right there)
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cleverdevil ;)
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cleverdevil thanks, time to run, I'll update the wikis later on this evening, if I can get the kids down to bed :P
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tantek sounds good and thanks again!
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tantek.com edited /email (+103) "/* More Problems */ add podcast about The Man Who Refused To Email" (view diff)
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