#indiewebcamp 2015-09-04

2015-09-04 UTC
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KevinMarks I don't think we have a follow one yet
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kylewm.com edited /The_Grid (+386) "/* Criticism */ Don't pay much attention to this dumb article." (view diff)
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 231 karma
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kylewm lol
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kylewm snarfed: you are loading me up with karma today
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kylewm :)
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snarfed karma laundering
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tantek KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 159 karma
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tantek latest js;dr http://www.rei.com/s/all-deals - "It appears that your browser is blocking JavaScript. \\ REI.com requires JavaScript to function properly. If you want to search for or purchase items on our site, please configure your browser to use Javascript." because of course how would search and displaying product information work with plain HTML? perhaps they could learn from Amazon.
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tantek and when you do load it with JS - it's SOOOOOOO slow
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tantek good late evening #indiewebcamp!
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KartikPrabhu good very very late evening
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tantek indeed!
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Gustafson posted https://www.aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention https://webmention.io/notification/YskEDB_l6xh8XOSOXMYS9Q
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@kbdavis07 http://indiewebcamp.com/microformats (twitter.com/_/status/639717720972353536)
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jeena.net edited /Webmention (-5) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ updated to reality" (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] Brian Keith Davis replied '@kevinmarks But, looking at the link provided seems to be updated from current formats. I will look at those to see if can go into BE' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/microformats (https://twitter.com/kbdavis07/status/639717520224620544)
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Loqi [bridgy] Brian Keith Davis replied '@kevinmarks but the question at hand though was Rtur asking if they are needed in BE, otherwise deleting them from BE' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/microformats (https://twitter.com/kbdavis07/status/639717150320541696)
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Loqi [bridgy] Brian Keith Davis replied '@kevinmarks hi, I did not post that 😀 just an auto feed of all BlogEngine posts.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/microformats (https://twitter.com/kbdavis07/status/639716889006993409)
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@thesourcelab RT @stevepurkiss: New Blog Post: Dropping in on the Brighton Homebrew Website Club http://purkiss.com/blog/steve-purkiss/2015/08/13/dropping-in-on-the-brighton-homebrew-website-club #Brighton #Drupal #indieweb #ilov… (twitter.com/_/status/639739401510084608)
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acegiak anyone here had a look at tox?
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petermolnar acegiak, I did
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petermolnar working, but nothing impressive
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acegiak petermolnar: I just want someone to solve the IM problem already
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petermolnar give me a few words on the IM problem, please
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acegiak to me the IM problem is the lack of a ubiquitous open standard for live communication that doesn't suck
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acegiak like XMPP should solve these problems for us but something goes horribly wrong in the ux
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acegiak I think the answer at this point is actually to go back to xmpp
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myfreeweb acegiak: matrix.org? they're working on an open standard that uses HTTPS/JSON instead of XML crap & does more than XMPP (group chats aren't tied to a single server) -- there's a micropub integration already https://matrix.org/blog/2015/07/29/micropub-support-as-an-application-service/
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Jeena hm apart from Java there is no microformats parser written in a language for desktop applications
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tbrb http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers There looks to be a few? There's a .NET one that looks to be maybe out of date, but there's also the python one
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voxpelli Jeena: "desktop applications"? Node.js is used for many new desktop applications and there's a library for that one
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tommorris Jeena: we probably need a C/C++ parser at some point. and a .NET one. also, you can write desktop apps in Python. :-)
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M-kegan voxpelli : "Node.js is used for many new desktop application" --- really? What package is used for the UI?
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M-kegan there a wxNode or something?
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voxpelli M-kegan: https://github.com/nwjs/nw.js/ and https://github.com/atom/electron
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M-kegan huh, well would you look at that
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M-kegan didn't know that, thanks!
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M-kegan so it's basically like a browser, but with relaxed security so you can actually do more useful things?
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M-kegan from what I'm reading
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voxpelli basically, and it has node.js built in
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aaronpk several "desktop" apps are really just node.js backends with a web frontent
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M-kegan humm... but everything shares the same thread? :(
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voxpelli M-kegan: well, the main-thread, as that's how everything node.js or js in general works
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voxpelli there are likely ways to get extra threads
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M-kegan I guess it depends on what you're doing, but for heavy cpu operations you're going to be screwing over UI responsiveness
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M-kegan which is sub-optimal..
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M-kegan I know node supports a cluster(?) module, but never tried it
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aaronpk i have a feeling Slack is written in something like this, since the desktop and web clients are virtually identical
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voxpelli then one would have to handle it as one does on an ordinary web page :) push it to some kind of worker och just divide it into such small chunks that the UI can steal back controll often enough
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voxpelli aaronpk: Slack uses Electron
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aaronpk cool
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M-kegan I guess
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@kevinmarks @kbdavis07 that sounds great - indiewebify.me is a useful tool. Ask in http:///irc/2015-08-16 if you have questions about what to do (twitter.com/_/status/639843123590397952)
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tantek ^^^ heh another URL redirect bug?
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tantek Loqi, you gotta know when to stop following redirects. Or at least handle relative redirects!
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Loqi i'm sure me gotta know when to stop following redirects. Or at least handle relative redirects!
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tantek lololol. wat
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tantek KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 160 karma
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aaronpk well that's odd, look at the date... 2015-08-16
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aaronpk it's like Loqi cached the redirect from then
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk hm, when following redirects, should Loqi stop at a "302 Moved Temporarily" and report the URL before that?
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tantek what is BlogEngine?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "BlogEngine" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102Q
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tantek aaronpk: sounds reasonable
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aaronpk e.g. http://t.co/uQVbsZ4aL1 301 -> http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today?beta 302 -> https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-04?beta
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aaronpk so the final URL shown should be /irc/today
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tantek ?beta#bottom
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk ah the URL un-shortening library I am using does its own caching
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KevinMarks is there a way to tell woodwind etc to follow that we can use as an indie action ?
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tantek no one has had an itch to implement it on the consuming side yet
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tantek thus I'm not sure it's worth designing/deploying something that won't get used/tested in practice
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aaronpk consuming side being woodwind?
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KevinMarks well, I have an itch with the xoxo people list
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tantek or your own site, if your own site has an integrated reader
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KevinMarks but andy said not to clone it outside their login as he doesn't want co-ordinated trolls to get it
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tantek KevinMarks: what end user benefit will you get?
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tantek just adding markup to something without a use-case is not an end user benefit
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tantek it's just, as you might say, faffing around
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KevinMarks i can click follow on someone interesting site and they are in my woodwind
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tantek then you need to convince (or submit a pull request to) Woodwind also
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tantek I mean, is kylewm open to making Woodwind a webaction handler / endpoint?
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tantek Woodwind would have to implement /indie-config
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tantek KevinMarks: perhaps start by capturing this scenario / the pieces you need to implement to make it work in a new section in /follow#Brainstorming ?
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KevinMarks I was thinking 'oh, should add twitter follow intents' and then thought 'also indiereader follow intents'
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tantek KevinMarks, the other thing is, all the other indie-config webactions are designed to work through your personal site, so "follow" should too.
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aaronpk no, the other web actions are designed to work with whatever endpoint you set up. doesn't have to be your site
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tantek then if you decide to use an external reader, your personal site should "forward" (whatever that means) or "delegate" that "follow" to your /reader
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tantek aaronpk: no, you only get one
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voxpelli SubToMe should have lots of endpoints for readers documented
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tantek to handle them all
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voxpelli and +1 on Woodwind not being an indie-config provider – an endpoint for following is enough
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voxpelli And would work with eg SubToMe as well
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tantek KevinMarks: for now, we don't have this need/itch well documented/figured out - so rather than hastily hack something that is likely fragile / not thought through, I'd say capture the need *first* on the wiki, and for now don't bother putting something hacky/untested on xoxo's markup
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tantek e.g. file an issue on Woodwind etc.
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KevinMarks hm, woodwind has a get/post /subscribe method
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KevinMarks (duh, it is the 1st thing you see in a new install)
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tantek KevinMarks: right - that's how you could implement "delegate" via handling the indie-config webaction on your own site
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tantek I don't think Woodwind should be the indie-config handler
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kylewm Woodwind does register itself with subtome fwiw
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tantek a provider yes
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tantek because Woodwind itself has webaction buttons for like, reply
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KevinMarks ah, got it
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tantek which your website should handle
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tantek KevinMarks - easiest thing for expedience is to use SubToMe then, since Woodwind already supports it
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tantek that is, to add SubToMe to the XOXO markup
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tantek does SubToMe markup work with a twitter follow fallback? or does it always take over regardless?
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KartikPrabhu what is SubToMe?
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Loqi SubToMe is a button content publishers can put on their sites which enables users to subscribe to their feed in whatever reader they choose — sort of a universal follow button https://indiewebcamp.com/SubToMe
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tantek would also be a good test for SubToMe
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tantek if the Andy's or anyone else likes it or complains about it, that will be good feedback
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aaronpk i still don't understand how SubToMe works
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tantek me neither. but presumably kylewm does!
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voxpelli aaronpk: it's a centralized indie-config for feed follows that saves config in localstorage basically
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tantek voxpelli: whoa - that's the clearest explanation I've heard yet - could you add that to /SubToMe ?
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aaronpk oh yes okay
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aaronpk voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 46 karma
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tantek what is follow?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indiewebcamp.com/follow
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KartikPrabhu how reliable is localStorage for these things? If it gets "full" are older things deleted?
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voxpelli tantek: not at a computer right now
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aaronpk i think localstorage throws an error if you write to it when it's full
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aaronpk and apps have a chance to request more space iirc
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voxpelli I think a localstorage backed indie-config could make sense actually – as a low threshold way to get started
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tantek.com edited /follow (+511) "brainstorming Follow Webaction, see also subtome" (view diff)
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tantek here's a start KevinMarks, please expand: https://indiewebcamp.com/follow#Follow_Webaction
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tantek.com edited /SubToMe (+11) "/* See Also */ follow" (view diff)
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KevinMarks hm, the js button doesn't quite fit as that is a 'sub to the containing page' one
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tantek huh, I just saw a "Save" button on FB that when you hover over it says "Click to save. Only you can see the things you save." is that new?
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tantek what is Save
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Save" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102R
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tantek Save is a private bookmark webaction button that [[Facebook]] shows on [[link-preview]]s of [[venue]]s with the hovertext "Click to save. Only you can see the things you save."
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KartikPrabhu yeah new
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loqi.me created /Save (+203) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-04/line/1441387493312 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /Save (+77) "see also, linky" (view diff)
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tantek screenshot coming
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2015-09-04-facebook-save-webaction-on-venue.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /Save (+89) "p-summary and screenshot" (view diff)
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snarfed hi all! just fyi, i'm hoping to work on bridgy's new mention-vs-POSSE logic this weekend (https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51#issuecomment-136792750). i'm mentioning it here because lots of people have been interested.
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snarfed if you have an opinion on it, feel free to weigh in or follow along over the next few days!
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tantek ooh! I'll be following (as much as I'm online)
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Loqi [mention] john wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/PESOS https://webmention.io/notification/JIDo_Kc7V2CoMBgrRQxQVw
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tantek FB use of /Save in that way echoes what I've been saying is a distinction between different actual uses/intentions of "Share" in practice, save=private (self only), send=semi-private (to one or a few people only - whitelist), publish=public
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snarfed still hoping to hear at least one or two explicit "yes" votes on the logic in that link before i start. i'll give it one more day :P
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KevinMarks right tantek - there is also one on events that is like a private maybe
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tantek no it is not private nor maybe
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KevinMarks ?
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KevinMarks I meant in utility - I use maybe to put an event in my fb calendar in case I want to go (ie if i'm in sf for some other reason)
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tantek it's "interested"
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tantek not "maybe"
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KevinMarks save also puts it in the fb events tab so would work in a similar way, without notifying the event organiser et al
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/rsvp-brainstorming##RSVP%20options
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tantek it's not private - note screenshot of it showing up
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KevinMarks 'only you can see' is private in FB terms as in 'not published to toters unless they pay FB to target ads on'
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KevinMarks s/titers/others/
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KevinMarks o_O
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aaronpk tantek: how's that for customer service? ;-) https://github.com/quark-zju/unshorten/issues/7#issuecomment-137802617
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aaronpk "customer"
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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tantek "user service"
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tantek "community service"? oh wait that's different ;)
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tantek.com edited /marchitecture (+169) "cite willnorris article on openstack in php in attempt to make it practical" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /The_Open_Stack (+54) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OpenID (+482) "/* Criticism */ Poor Usability In Practice" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /monoculture (+247) "/* Blog posts */ add benwerd "Building a distributed social network? You’re doing it wrong"" (view diff)
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tantek still hasn't dug himself out of http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-01#t1441138991780
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aaronpk great post by ben
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aaronpk heh, the first comment is from one of the projects "no we're different we swear"
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aaronpk project website is now a spam site
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tantek yeah that was my Wednesday rabbithole - benwerd's blog posts are too darn good!
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aaronpk creator's website is running on wordpress
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[kevinmarks] Google G at tweet length http://svgur.com/s/q
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aaronpk you should probably tweet that :)
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Loqi agreed.
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KevinMarks heh, twitter card parser rejects SVG in comment
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KevinMarks even though it's escaped properly
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KevinMarks hm, twitter crops preview images
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KevinMarks I should make my PNGifier force the ratio to what fb/twitter want
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Loqi definitely
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KevinMarks woo, twitter cards and fb cards for svgur.com
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[kevinmarks] http://svgur.com/s/K
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KevinMarks though only if there is a description
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[aaronpk] nice
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks hm, how did I get whitelisted? did I ask a while ago?
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[kevinmarks] well, that was a good double nerdswipe
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aaronpk wow just noticed that Slack has a built-in blog post editor
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aaronpk huh I need to pay attention better. apparently CSS has had calc() in it for a while
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aaronpk this whole time i've been like "whyyyy can't I say 100% - 60px!"
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: be sure to provide default in case browsers don't support calc
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aaronpk apparently there are like 2
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KartikPrabhu http://caniuse.com/#feat=calc
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aaronpk IE8 whatev, old Android whatev
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KartikPrabhu dislikes the new # URLs on canIuse
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aaronpk the old ones still work http://caniuse.com/calc
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KartikPrabhu yes that's how I got to that page :P
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aaronpk yeah me too lol
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KartikPrabhu though I have moslty abandoned px units in CSS
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KartikPrabhu everything is %, em or rem
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KevinMarks how about vh and vw units
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KevinMarks what's going on that I should tell gillmor gang about?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: can't recall that I use vw and vh much. They're far too "global"
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KevinMarks handy for the hovercard
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KartikPrabhu possibly. not claiming they aren't useful. I haven't used them on my site yet
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tantek is assuming rhiaro is organizing a HWC Edi 2015-09-10
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KevinMarks arguing with arrington about app bubble
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KevinMarks weird https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground
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@myfreeweb Receiving Webmentions should work now… (not deduplication or updating yet). (https://unrelenting.technology/notes/2015-09-04-20-50-46) (twitter.com/_/status/639903486889586688)
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aaronpk thinking about doing a pretty heavy reworking of Monocle
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aaronpk to make it work way more like http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2015/08/29/1/why-i-live-in-irc
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snarfed hoo boy sounds like a big project
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aaronpk kind of
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aaronpk i'm trying to break it down into small piece
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aaronpk s
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snarfed at least if you want to really get the UX to a point where you'd switch to it entirely
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aaronpk the fact is, I'm still not using Monocle as much as I would like
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snarfed yup you have been spinning off microservices a lot
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snarfed totally. i don't try to computerize my notifs as much as you do, but in terms of reading, i'm definitely happy i've managed to get it all into my reader (newsblur)
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snarfed took a while to knock off the G+ long pole, but finally done
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aaronpk it occurred to me that it is currently far easier for me to add random things to my IRC setup than it is to Monocle, which means 1) something needs to change about Monocle to flip that, and 2) I will not be able to move off IRC until then
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snarfed yup, good self awareness
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snarfed i don't envy you the task of getting monocle to that point
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aaronpk yes, and building essentially Yet Another Chat Client seems kind of silly
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aaronpk I might try to sketch some of this out this weekend when i'm (nearly) off the grid
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kylewm don't call it Yacc please
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aaronpk tehe
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aaronpk nah it's still gonna be Monocle
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kylewm I hate "YA-" projects except I think it's hilarious when they eventually become the de-facto best or only one
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tantek e.g. YAML
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aaronpk haha yeah
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tantek kylewm: exception YaYY - where the first Y does not stand for "yet"
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Loqi yay!
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tantek :D
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[kevinmarks] Is this where a "follow" webaction gets involved, Aaron?
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aaronpk that's like v4
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aaronpk a lot more foundation to lay first
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tantek KevinMarks: can you add more to https://indiewebcamp.com/follow#Follow_Webaction expanding what you in particular mean / want by "where a follow webaction gets involved"?
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