#indiewebcamp 2015-10-14

2015-10-14 UTC
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@blackcatrena RT @DrHeavenyC: #indiedev #IndieBooksBeSeen #Indie #IndieDevHour #indiefilm #comics #art #indieweb #IndieRock #Indiepower #IndiePub https:… (twitter.com/_/status/654094476684750848)
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@evil2resih Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building – with better indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/654111682147581953)
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kevinmarks hm, woodwind is hiding the reply-area from me
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@ken_bauer I’ve only listened to the 1st 10 minutes but hear echoes of #indieweb and @ReclaimHosting Also check @withknown https://twitter.com/ken_bauer/status/654100622568849408 (twitter.com/_/status/654119436031426560)
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kylewm kevinmarks: i hid it til you click somewhere on the post, open to feedback
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@Petersell RT @withknown: Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support. http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better (twitter.com/_/status/654184118276739072)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@EPfafenrot RT @nxD4n: #Warum #wieso #weshalb @diplix das macht #indieweb https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/654226913213480961)
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j4y_funabashi 5
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@jgmac1106 @ken_bauer I use both those, but am excited about the idea of "open API" once I figure out what that is #indieweb @ReclaimHosting @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/654268621917700097)
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@davidpeach1 @MKGeekNight Id like to write something if I may? It would be either PHP / indieweb focussed. Thanks. (twitter.com/_/status/654281481846697984)
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@davidpeach1 @12Devs @MKGeekNight Id like to write something if I may? It would be either PHP / indieweb focussed. Thanks. (twitter.com/_/status/654281832691859456)
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aaronpk new SSL warnings in chrome today http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dubious-as-neutral-640x338.png
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk good morning!
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bear aaronpk - well, technically it's not a new one but rather that they are changing how they display mixed-content warnings
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aaronpk true. guess i meant "new" behavior
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bear instead of showing the caution triangle they are going to show the site as being non https
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tantek hey I'm getting new warnings from NOSCRIPT that gmail is seeing attempted XSS attacks from mail.google.com
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aaronpk i'd be curious to get some input on this micropub issue I ran into: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/12
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: uid instead of id ?
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KartikPrabhu uid should be the unique canonical identifier for your post
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aaronpk uid has the same problem as url
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KartikPrabhu so for your post your store uid that is not the actual uid for your post?
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aaronpk uid is the "universally unique identifier" which means it will *always* be the external URL, not the URL of the post on my site http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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KartikPrabhu "u-uid - universally unique identifier, typically canonical entry URL " I'd take that to mean the canonical entry URL of the post, not some post it is referring to
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KartikPrabhu so if I like something, the uid of my like is still the uid on my site
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aaronpk yeah that makes sense for "likes"
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aaronpk but what about an event, where I am storing a copy of the event on my site
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KartikPrabhu not for contacts?
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aaronpk same for contacts
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KartikPrabhu hmmmm
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KartikPrabhu it is weird to have two interpreetations of uid depending on post-type
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aaronpk it's not really two different interpretations
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KartikPrabhu same problem for reposts then?
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aaronpk no, the repost is its own object just like a "like" is
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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aaronpk the repost has its own publish date and its own author
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KartikPrabhu gotcha. this is confusing :P
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snarfed1 sounds like the difference is whether your post is the original (e.g. likes and reposts) or a syndication ie copy of an original somewhere else
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GWG !tell pfefferle Happy birthday.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Good afternoon all
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aaronpk snarfed: i think that's correct
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aaronpk basically I need a parameter that refers to the local URL of the thing on my site, regardless of whether it's an original or a syndication/copy
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voxpelli uid is meant for deduplication – if eg. many services were to do what Bridgy does and both would send the same silo WebMention, uid is what would ensure that only one is picked up
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Loqi voxpelli: tantek left you a message on 10/9 at 11:34am: could you note that about Malmö in its entry here? http://indiewebcamp.com/hwc#Getting_Started_or_Restarting - or if monthly is for sure, move it to http://indiewebcamp.com/hwc#Regular_Meetings http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-09/line/1444415694384
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snarfed voxpelli: true! but the context here is micropub
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voxpelli Yep, so uid is only meaningful to explicitly set in Micropub if one publishes a copy, else it will be generated from eg URL
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voxpelli So agree that eg mp-url is needed
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tantek aaronpk - huh? what do you mean "copy of the event on my site"?
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aaronpk sometimes i publish a copy of an event that exists elsewhere
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aaronpk like events on the wiki http://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/10/07/1/homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk the wiki event is the canonical version
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tantek Sounds like ... perhaps a repost of an event!
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aaronpk is it?
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aaronpk i certainly don't think of it that way
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tantek think about it - ideally you'd want your event repost to auto-update its details if/when the original event changes right?
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tantek posting a "copy of" something is called reposting
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tantek specifically posting a "copy of" some other *post*, is a repost!
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aaronpk is the same thing true for contacts then?
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tantek good question! I'd say no at first guess because the ACL is different
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tantek whereas presumably for your event reposts, you're going public -> public
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KartikPrabhu ACL?
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tantek what is an ACL?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ACL" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104r
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tantek what is an access control list?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "access control list" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/104s
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tantek ACL is an abbreviation for access control list, and in the indieweb context refers typically to a list of people who are allowed to view (and perhaps edit etc.) particular posts or perhaps an entire site.
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loqi.me created /ACL (+231) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-14/line/1444844812762 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KartikPrabhu gotcha
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aaronpk i guess that works for me
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tantek access control list is ACL
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aaronpk the question stands though
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loqi.me created /access_control_list (+53) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-14/line/1444844823253 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KartikPrabhu what if a repost is a private post then?
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tantek people say ACL more than access control list so I made the acronym the canonical page
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aaronpk there's nothing wrong with a repost having diferent visibility than the original
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tantek KartikPrabhu: when you can document examples of private reposts (somehow), we can address that problem
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KartikPrabhu ok
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tantek s/problem/question
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: when you can document examples of private reposts (somehow), we can address that question
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tantek until then, not going to worry about it ;)
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aaronpk okay this is a great example then
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aaronpk how do I edit a repost using micropub
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aaronpk for example if I mistakenly entered the wrong URL, or realized the URL I reposted had a bunch of utm* parameters that I want to remove
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[snarfed] tantek: plenty of silo examples of private reposts
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[snarfed] retweets by protected twitter accounts, non-public fb/g+ shares
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tantek snarfed great! happy to see some documentation of those with descriptions (preferably with permalinks even if only some folks can verify them)
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aaronpk oh yeah, I made a private twitter account that reposts any tweet from an xoxo attendee that mentions "xoxo"
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tantek aaronpk: sure, that's a bot use-case. not as interesting as human use-case but probably still worth documenting.
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aaronpk well, lots of people want to follow that account because of the filter it provides
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tantek sure! it's still a bot, or "aggregator service" if you prefer
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tantek rather than a human account
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aaronpk anyway, this is not my question right now
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voxpelli I disagree that a copy of something is necessarily a repost – a repost is an active action, not a passive one
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voxpelli A repost activity is also always an h-entry, not eg an h-event or an h-card?
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snarfed i agree in spirit
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snarfed one distinction might be whether it appears on your front page or in any feeds
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snarfed voxpelli: if you mark up a copy as a repost, but omit it from front page and feeds, the difference is probably pretty small. thoughts?
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voxpelli snarfed: isn't it enough to set a uid and a syndication-of pointing to what it copies?
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tantek voxpelli: a-ha! was waiting for someone to ask what does it mean to repost an h-event when reposts are (always? usually?) h-entry's themselves!
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voxpelli In activitystreams one embed the event object in the activity object, would we do
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voxpelli something similar?
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kylewm hmm, yeah h-cite doesn't give you the type of the original thing does it
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aaronpk oh yeah, weird
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tantek you can h-cite any URL
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voxpelli not sure repost-of and h-cite would be right way to go to copy an event to ones cite
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tantek agreed
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tantek presumably from a presentational perspective you want your copy of the event to still look like the primary thing on its page - not just a citation
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tantek sorry I misread - *only* using h-cite would probably not communicate the right thing
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@mlinksva Great idea from @xirzon "creating a Universal Content Liberation Tool" https://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/okfn-discuss/2015-October/011002.html maybe complementing #archiveteam & #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/654365604221050880)
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kylewm ^ suggesting a tool to download a user's data from any service and archive it somewhere/keep it up to date
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kylewm sounds a bit like https://github.com/asheville/sync
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 251 karma
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tantek aaronpk, just read up on the mp issue you mentioned
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tantek seems like you do want to indicate some aspect of unique identity, and it is also desirable to express the URL permalink semantic
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tantek something like mp-uid or micropub-uid would indicate both of those I think
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tantek the implication being that everything on your site has a UID
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tantek I can also see how mp-url or micropub-url would be preferable, and then only allow one value for that
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tantek as in, this is the URL that this micropub request is operating on
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tantek that seems more directly obvious to a new micropub developer than *-uid
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tigt hey folks, I was wondering if someone could help me track down an indieweb post/site I've been looking for, on the off chance they remembered it
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tigt it was about a fusion of static/dynamic web servers
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tigt something about "half-baked" websites, I think? not sure
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tigt it was a spartan white-background appearance which isn't terribly unique among indieweb sites, so that's not of much help
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tigt I think the going implementation was something like a dynamic site that spat out static HTML, kind of "cache-first"
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tantek tigt - I think that approach is possible with most CMSs. E.g. I've heard of setups that use WordPress purely on an intranet to publish static pages to another server which serves them publicly.
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tigt Yeah, absolutely
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tigt I'm just trying to track down something very interesting he was doing with his comment <form>
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tigt where it was the bare minimum of "dynamic" that I could conceive
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tigt same with webmention
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kylewm tigt: was it https://bear.im/bearlog/2015/069/static-site-hybrid
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tigt I think it might just be
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tigt thank you very much
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tigt right now the plan is to provide as user-friendly of server-software-installation process as possible, and we're trying something weird
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tigt the idea was that most hosts roll out the red carpet for WordPress in some fashion
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tigt so we're investigating writing a plugin that shunts WordPress into a protected directory, uses it for static site generation, but also providing an available backend for search, comments, etc.
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tigt definitely a weird idea but WordPress-as-an-installer seems worth an experiment
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tigt would also come with a hell of a standard library
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kylewm is that basically what tantek was talking about?
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tigt yeah, I'd say they're very similar
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kevinmarks pre-rendering wordpress is a good idea
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kevinmarks previously http://idlewords.com/2009/09/how_to_not_get_your_blog_hacked.htm
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kevinmarks and http://idlewords.com/2009/09/using_wordpress_to_generate_flat_files.htm
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tigt you'd think it'd be more common, but the only plugin I found for getting WP to spit out static HTML was a quirky one with all its comments and variables in German
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tigt we're interesting in adhering to principle of least power, where it's possible to invoke the WP engine to do things like accepting comments and trackbacks, local search, but if something goes wrong the static HTML should stay up
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kevinmarks well, you could go full static and use webmention.herokuapp.com or webmention.io for the comments and trackbacks
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tigt and if you don't need it to do those things (using Disqus/Muut, Swift/Google Custom Search/etc.), turn 'em off
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snarfed tigt, just as a data point, i configure the wp super cache plugin to write its generated html to disk, and apache serves it from there, which gets close to what you want
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tigt thank you, that sounds pretty good
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snarfed it can automatically update your apache .htaccess to run in that mode
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snarfed and you can configure the plugin to pre-load and generate all pages' html files
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tigt we're interested in some more in-depth buildings on top of WordPress, to the point where it might end up as a sideloader, but should probably be KISS for now
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kevinmarks do look at the indieweb wrodpress plugins
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tigt presumably I just search "indieweb" on their plugin repository?
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Zegnat I think everything might be linked from the indiewebcamp wiki?
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Zegnat what is wordpress?
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Loqi WordPress is open source blog software used by many on the indieweb as well as a blog hosting service https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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tigt powers some frightening fraction of all sites on the internet, depending on what analytics you trust
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tigt but it's in the double-digits for sure
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tigt basically they've done all the hard work for getting it to run on any combination of OS/server you could shake a stick at
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kevinmarks Zegnat was saying that to get loqi to give the link
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Loqi woot!
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kevinmarks https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress
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tigt I should have known loqi was a bot
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Loqi yea!
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kevinmarks gives loqi a definition
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Loqi investigates the definition
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Zegnat ah, yeah, sorry, guess the whole Loqi thing to get quick access to the wiki is very insider-only behaviour
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kevinmarks well, it's supposed to work for non insiders too, if they ask a what is?
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tigt it's funny, you'd think at this point IRC would have a de-facto way of indicating a user is a bot, but I've never seen such a thing other than just putting "bot" in the name somewhere
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kevinmarks google says use responsive design, but they'll crawl your js anyway http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.sg/2015/10/deprecating-our-ajax-crawling-scheme.html
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tigt and that's not terribly common
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tantek who is Loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Loqi.me
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tantek :)
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tigt it's definitely a puzzle how we have simultaneously people wailing about the web being too inherently slow and JS frameworks that, even assuming a 0s parse/execute time, turn 1 RTT to 3 or more
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aaronpk "tl;dr: We are no longer recommending the AJAX crawling proposal we made back in 2009." http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2015/10/deprecating-our-ajax-crawling-scheme.html
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KartikPrabhu because AMP!
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tantek awesome
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tantek is it possible to setup ownyourgram to post from MULTIPLE Instagram accounts to ONE indie web site?
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aaronpk hmmm
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aaronpk no I think right now it's set up to assume 1:1 indieweb site and instagram account
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aaronpk if I made it so that you first log in with an instagram account and *then* connected a micropub endpoint, it would work that way
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tantek another question, is it possible to setup ownyourgram to *only* post photos with a specific tag from IG to your indie web site?
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aaronpk not right now, but that would be relatively easy to add
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tantek what if you connected a micropub endpoint that had MULTIPLE rel=me links to Instagram? to several profiles?
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aaronpk not sure. that sounds complicated.
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aaronpk I assume there is a real use case driving these questions, since you're not normally one to theorize hypothetical situations ;)
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tantek the real use-case is a one-off shared site for people from an event to share photos in a common stream
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tantek precisely what the "Shared" cloud-icon thing in the iOS Photos app does
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aaronpk hm i haven't used that yet
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tantek I haven't created one but have been invited to several, usually associated with specific events, or one for my sister's family where they share private photos (trusting Apple's privacy UX more than a "free" silo that has ad incentive to make mistakes in that regard, or at least not focused on being as careful)
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aaronpk oh i've never turned on iCloud support for photos
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tantek you don't have to
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tantek for this feature
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aaronpk there's no "shared" cloud icon in the photos app unles you turn on the checkbox in settings
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tantek I turn off iCloud support for photos too - it's all kinds of buggy - really confused my parents with what gets deleted or not where
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aaronpk it's a different one than the setting that uploads everything
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tantek huh ok, maybe it's iCloud sync that uploads everything?
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tantek ok
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kevinmarks hm isn't that http://www.pestagram.com/tag/indieweb
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aaronpk heh i can't tell what the difference is between these two: iCloud Photo Library, and My Photo Stream
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tantek where are you seeing that?
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aaronpk Settings -> iCloud -> Photos
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kevinmarks or more specifically http://www.pestagram.com/tag/freyler which is the hashtag for that wedding
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kevinmarks (yes choosing a wedding hashtag is part of the process now)
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tantek aaronpk: I have both of those turned off
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tantek I only have the bottom one, "iCloud Photo Sharing" turned on
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aaronpk me too. the third one is the shared aslbum settings
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tantek iOS9.0.2
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tantek yeah that's all you need
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aaronpk they were all off until a minute ago
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tantek Library means everything and sync it all across devices
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tantek Stream means only upload *new* photos, and then *send* them to all your devices. NO sync.
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aaronpk well this is neat
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aaronpk now @indiewebcat and I are sharing an album so that I can transfer photos to her iPod quicker
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aaronpk so that she can post them on her site of course
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tantek awesome! got you using the use-case :)