#indiewebcamp 2015-10-26

2015-10-26 UTC
lukebrooker, scoates, wolftune, tantek, ben_thatmustbeme, j12t and cmhobbs joined the channel
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kevinmarks hm, if I chain replies on twitter can I make a poll with more than 2 choices?
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kevinmarks tweetpollstorm
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/joelgrus/status/658316689063284736
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@joelgrus "Data science is a god-like power." "Right, have you finished munging those CSVs yet?" "No, they have time zone data in them!" (twitter.com/_/status/658316689063284736)
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mblaney !tell voxpelli I've made the changes to my indie-config status that we discussed and I think it's a good improvement.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mblaney !tell voxpelli it does require an agreement on the format for multiple urls, I've gone for url1=...&url2=... etc since it's less server specific but open to suggestions
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek I just (accidentally?) updated a post permalink with a whole new post, from note to photo, and POSSEd a second copy
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tantek (didn't delete the previous "version")
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tantek wondering how /readers will treat it
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kevinmarks what is js2
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "js2" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105k
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kevinmarks and mf2 json breaks jsontoxoxo
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kevinmarks hah
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kevinmarks (it expects url to be a string
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kevinmarks new unmung feature: json to html
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kevinmarks got any json?
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kylewm.com edited /repost (+43) "/* Brainstorming Markup */ note that the ideal fallback for readers is different than the ideal fallback for webmention receivers" (view diff)
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kevinmarks eg http://www.kevinmarks.com/minimaljson.txt
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kevinmarks becomes http://www.unmung.com/jsontoxoxo?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com%2Fminimaljson.txt
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kylewm.com edited /repost (+3) "/* Brainstorming Markup */ grammar" (view diff)
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[snarfed] kevinmarks: woo congrats!
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[snarfed] kevinmarks++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 178 karma
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kevinmarks this is literally decade old code
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[snarfed] can't wait to compare it to https://granary-demo.appspot.com/?input=html
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[snarfed] oh! so it's not mf2 specific?
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kevinmarks this is just the classic {} to <dl> [] to <ol> mapping
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kevinmarks granary is not good to test it on as the urls have tokens in
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GWG aaronpk: Is it mp-url or url? I see both at points in the wiki
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kevinmarks OK, I added xoxotojson too
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kevinmarks http://www.unmung.com/xoxotojson?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.com&pretty=on
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kevinmarks this is very old school html parsing though. I bet it blows up on modern sites
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aaronpk GWG: it's looking like it will be mp-url, lots more info in this thread https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/12
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elf-pavlik !tell mblaney I really look forward to discuss with you https://gitlab.com/dobrado/dobrado :) And thank you for joining collaboraion in https://github.com/ouisharelabs/food-dashboard/issues/1#issuecomment-150993629
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mblaney hi elf-pavlik!
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Loqi mblaney: elf-pavlik left you a message 27 minutes ago: I really look forward to discuss with you https://gitlab.com/dobrado/dobrado :) And thank you for joining collaboraion in https://github.com/ouisharelabs/food-dashboard/issues/1#issuecomment-150993629 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-25/line/1445842279078
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elf-pavlik hey mblaney :D
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mblaney nice to see there's a cross-over between food networking software and indieweb :-)
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elf-pavlik so far i only knew about Teacup also listed on https://github.com/ouisharelabs/food-dashboard#open-source-software
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mblaney I'm guessing it's a small cross over, and that we should probably move our discussions to indiechat....
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elf-pavlik jumping there
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pfefferle good morning
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@nueww Schon ein Ausblick auf unser Programm: Es gibt ein IndieWebCamp, eine Pecha Kucha Night und einen Creative Monday... http://nueww.de/2016/programm-2016 (twitter.com/_/status/658554238172340224)
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voxpelli !tell mblaney The standard formats for multiple occurrences of a query parameter is to either just repeat the query param with the same name, or to suffix it with "[]". The latter is what PHP does and what Micropub has adopted: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Create
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Loqi voxpelli: mblaney left you a message 6 hours, 16 minutes ago: I've made the changes to my indie-config status that we discussed and I think it's a good improvement. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-25/line/1445827930521
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Loqi voxpelli: mblaney left you a message 6 hours, 13 minutes ago: it does require an agreement on the format for multiple urls, I've gone for url1=...&url2=... etc since it's less server specific but open to suggestions http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-25/line/1445828099520
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mblaney voxpelli: sure, I was just a bit worried about being universal enough.
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Loqi mblaney: voxpelli left you a message 59 minutes ago: The standard formats for multiple occurrences of a query parameter is to either just repeat the query param with the same name, or to suffix it with "[]". The latter is what PHP does and what Micropub has adopted: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Create http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-26/line/1445850526407
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mblaney voxpelli: if there's already agreement then I'm happy with that too.
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voxpelli mblaney: with a []-suffix it's totally universal, but even without it should be fairly universal, can't remember how eg. PHP handles it though
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voxpelli and since Micropub does [] that's probably the way to go within the indieweb at the moment :)
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mblaney yes I think it's worth copying micropub
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mblaney I think I saw earlier today that PHP requires [] or it just uses the first parameter
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mblaney (on an obscure point, rssCloud uses url1 to urlN)
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mblaney my feed page now does a status check for all indie-actions on the page, seems to work well enough.
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voxpelli mblaney: be sure to update the wiki page brainstorm with any experience / reflections / references to what you've done :)
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mblaney sure, thanks for your input voxpelli. let me know if you get something working too so we can try different implementations :-)
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voxpelli mblaney: will do – unfortunately it might take a while :/ lots of work at the moment and when it comes to IndieWeb SWAT0 + a working Micropub are my top priorities
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voxpelli the working micropub endpoint can perhaps be leveraged to get such statuses eventually though
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mblaney voxpelli: yes they are good priorities and there is always much to do....
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elf-pavlik http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#JSON_Syntax
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Zegnat voxpelli, mblaney, I can confirm that PHP requires []. It will use the last parameter otherwise. Of course that only applies if you want to use $_GET, you can always chose to parse $_SERVER['QUERY_STRING'] yourself
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GWG Morning
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voxpelli GWG: regarding your thoughts on Micropub edits, my impression is that all Micropub edits are partial and none are full
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voxpelli none are full replacements I mean
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voxpelli if one wants to do a replacement, then I would say one would use the normal Create and specify the same URL as an existing post
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GWG voxpelli: Then the whole update/add thing needs to be settled.
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voxpelli GWG: big +1 on that
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GWG I just think the second level parameter is unnecessary
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voxpelli it's very experimental right now with very limited support amongst clients and providers
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voxpelli I think the second level is useful, but real world implementations will help find that out
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voxpelli until any proper client supports editing I would skip it
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GWG voxpelli: Why is it useful?
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voxpelli GWG: two clients can both do an "add" without any conflict arising between the two
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GWG Having two different mp-action parameters is simpler.
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voxpelli you might want to combine "add", "remove" and "edit" in the same request
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voxpelli s/"edit"/"update"
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: you might want to combine "add", "remove" and "update" in the same request
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voxpelli s/"edit"/"update"/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: s/"update"/"update"
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voxpelli it's similar to formats like http://jsonpatch.com/
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GWG Interesting thought
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voxpelli the example in the wiki of adding a syndication URL is a good one – as two different clients could do a POSSE of a post at once
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voxpelli and both might want to add the syndication URL independently without risking overwriting one anothers
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GWG voxpelli: That I understood. But I had not considered batching different types of updates in the same transaction.
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GWG Not sure how common that would be
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@mschottenhammer RT @nueww: Schon ein Ausblick auf unser Programm: Es gibt ein IndieWebCamp, eine Pecha Kucha Night und einen Creative Monday... https://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/658634597291397120)
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snarfed hey wordpress users! if you see spam comments on your site that end in long hex strings, here's a small PHP snippet that will filter them out automatically: https://snarfed.org/wordpress-mini-spam-filter-for-comments-ending-in-32-hex-characters
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snarfed e.g. "Taken with a GoPro Hero 3 Black, the photo records the tips of the community’s highest structures jabbing through dense cloud. 4c615976ebb5b573d4b6343094660d05"
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GWG snarfed: Morning
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snarfed (for a while now, those are the only spam comments that have made it through my site's filters)
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snarfed hi GWG!
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GWG I've been thinking of you
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GWG Mostly because I am still knee deep in Micropub land
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snarfed oh boy
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GWG snarfed: Good oh boy or bad?
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snarfed you tell me!
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GWG I hope good
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GWG I split parts of the code into smaller pieces to make testing individual sections easier.
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GWG I removed testing for parameters you already tested for.
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GWG I moved several functions to run on the existing hooks instead of being explicitly called.
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GWG And I starr
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GWG started writing test data.
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snarfed great!
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snarfed did you look at other plugin unit tests to see how they do it?
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snarfed i'd really like for us to do that before we invent our own testing framework or pattern
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GWG They use a specific WP Unit Test class. I have the notations.
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snarfed which ones did you look at?
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GWG The ones used by core
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GWG They have a class called WP_UnitTestCase
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snarfed ah ok
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snarfed did you look at any third party plugins?
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snarfed the ones you looked at were core unit tetsts, not plugin unit tetsts?
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GWG I looked at the code in the oembed feature plugin they just merged into core
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snarfed ok
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snarfed probably worth looking at one or two others too
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snarfed what did you mean by "i have the notations" ?
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GWG Sorry, working on another project that uses that as a term.
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voxpelli here's a Swedish plugin with _extensive_ unit tests: https://github.com/wp-papi/papi the creator is very much advocating for tests in WP-plugins
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GWG I have the references.
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voxpelli not sure if it's a good reference though :P
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GWG snarfed: Trust me. I may drive you crazy. I may tear your code to shreds....but THERE WILL BE UNIT TESTS
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GWG Sorry, that was for emphasis
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snarfed lol np
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snarfed let's keep the unit tests and avoid the crazy and shreds :P
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GWG snarfed: They are all related.
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snarfed ok. as long as we're doing unit tests the common way that most wordpress plugins do, i'll be happy
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GWG It is easier to test the create code if you have it separate from the edit code.
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GWG If I'm reading the unit test construction, you test individual elements and the whole process.
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GWG I needed to break things into those elements to test them.
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cweiske GWG, which new oembed feature plugin?
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snarfed GWG: i was talking about the unit test framework we use, not about how we refactor :P
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GWG https://github.com/swissspidy/oEmbed-API/
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GWG Lot more test cases than I would have thought of.
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GWG Testing the output of every function
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GWG One of the reasons I don't want to directly call $_POST
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snarfed when i advocated for using http requests before, i may have been unclear
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snarfed i don't actually want to run wordpress, send http requests to localhost, and look at the responses
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GWG Oh?
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snarfed as you described, with unit tests, you give code some input and look at the output
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GWG Yes
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snarfed i'd like the micropub tests to all be high level, fill in the input http request data, trigger the plugin, and look at the response and db rows that were created
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snarfed as opposed to individually testing smaller inner functions
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snarfed testing smaller functions is good for big codebases, but this isn't that
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snarfed does that make sense? ie how it's different than actually running wp and sending http requests to localhost?
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GWG That is what I was going for. I just want to test create separate from edit.
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GWG Which can also be done by setting data in the $_POST variable and running the function
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[snarfed] great! exactly, those two tests should just need different http request data
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[snarfed] er same
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[snarfed] glad to hear we're in the sand page!
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GWG There's another reason I want to not directly call $_POST though.
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GWG Either way, I'll get there
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aaronpk voxpelli: the current micropub edit does allow full replacing of values
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aaronpk not sure where you got that impression
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Editing "Update: Replace all values of the property. Add: If there are any existing values for this property, they are not changed, the new values are added."
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GWG snarfed: By the way, the implementation of edit is not matching the one outlined
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GWG snarfed: So I'm not writing a test for it yet. Just for create
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snarfed sgtm
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voxpelli aaronpk: but only if you actually specify all existing properties of an item, no?
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aaronpk oh you are talking about replacing an entire post?
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GWG aaronpk: Isn't replacing an entire post an update with everything set?
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aaronpk when would you replace an entire post and not set some of the properties?
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snarfed GWG: btw i'm still happy to merge https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/pull/20 as is, if you just add docs :P
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voxpelli aaronpk: yes, replacing entire post, so kind of difference between PUT and PATCH in HTTP verb lingo
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voxpelli Current edit is like a PATCH
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voxpelli I would say current create is like a POST
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petermolnar GWG, a question: have you ever poked the "Press This" thing in WP? I'm a bit surprised how disconneted it is from the rest of the system
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GWG petermolnar: They revamped it in 4.3. It acts like an alternative post editor
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petermolnar yes, I'm aware of it
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petermolnar and as always, it's pretty unfinished
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petermolnar no filters, no action hooks, no custom taxonomy hooks
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petermolnar at least I've found something I can fix for them...
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GWG petermolnar: I had asked and gotten the impression that they had more planned. This was a complete rewrite of an older feature
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petermolnar yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath for that :/
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GWG petermolnar: I didn't think they'd do such a big rewrite. Ask snarfed. He used the feature pre 4.3
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GWG So you never know
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GWG petermolnar: Have you been following 4.4?
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petermolnar a little, I've just upgraded my site to the beta to see if there are any quirks
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GWG Lots of potentially interesting things
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petermolnar I've had my responsive images for years, so I'm not too thrilled about that
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GWG oembed for other WordPress sites. Term meta. Rest api infrastructure
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petermolnar there were times when I would have been very happy for the taxonomy meta, but I don't see any use at this moment; although that is a useful thing
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petermolnar REST api, I'm sceptic and a bit afraid that it can go xmlrpc-wrong, but hopefully not
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petermolnar oembed is good though, we'll see how that goes
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GWG petermolnar: This is just the infrastructure part. To build any api
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GWG I wanted link previews over oembed
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petermolnar have you seen this by the way? https://blog.sucuri.net/2015/10/brute-force-amplification-attacks-against-wordpress-xmlrpc.html
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GWG Yes, sparked a big debate about removing xmlrpc from WordPress
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petermolnar ah, they've added this: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34336
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[snarfed] petermolnar: have you seen https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress ?
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petermolnar [snarfed], yes, I've tried it soon after you've released it; however, since I'm using a post meta for the url and another for the webmention type, plus markdown, I'm a bit special :)
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GWG petermolnar: I tried to write an alternative that did that.
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petermolnar I just need a few filters in press-this; I'll try to push for those to happen
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[snarfed] markdown still works - i use it too - but understood for the rest
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GWG petermolnar: I will comment on a core ticket in support if you file one
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petermolnar thanks; I'll need to test if massively first
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GWG petermolnar, good luck.
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GWG I have a patch in 4.4. But two more were punted. Hoping to have more when 4.5 comes.
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GWG All related to webmentions
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GWG Or rather, my annoyance at the notifications about them.
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aaronpk hmm the wiki might not be caching the cache URLs as aggressively as I had hoped
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aaronpk got a huge increase in archiving API usage yesterday after enabling that
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GWG aaronpk, will the wiki be updated to reflect mp-url and replace or is that still under discussion?
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GWG How do these things close?
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aaronpk ideally someone (or two people) would make an implementation that uses mp-url and replace to sanity check it with real-world experience
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aaronpk i already updated my new micropub endpoint, but it's not deployed anywhere yet
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voxpelli aaronpk: I think the main issue is to find two clients that supports editing :P
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aaronpk that would be ideal yes :)
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voxpelli I don't know any clients that supports editing?
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aaronpk that's coming up on my list for Quill soon, but not until i launch my new site
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voxpelli one thing I wonder about editing, now I may just be forgetting stuff since I haven't worked on Micropub for a while, is how to get the initial data to do the edit on
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voxpelli are one expected to parse that as mf2 from a public:ish URL?
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aaronpk parsing from the mf2 is certainly one way, but only works for simple content, since it's quite likely the output is rendered different from the source material
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aaronpk for example most people don't author the html content they display in notes, since they use autolinkers to turn plain URLs into <a> tags
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aaronpk i think we had tossed around the idea of querying the micropub endpoint to return the original source for the post
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petermolnar GWG: I've just realized I've put in a ticket to WP, adding one single line: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/33003
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petermolnar it's been 3 months, and even I forgot about it...
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voxpelli aaronpk: querying was my thought as well, but couldn't remember ever coming across it in the wiki
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voxpelli I almost have a generic/pluggable query mechanism in place for my endpoint though
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voxpelli that could be extended to do eg. that
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aaronpk yeah, not sure how that didn't end up on the wiki
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aaronpk it would basically be something like mp-url=xxxx&q=source
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aaronpk or q=original
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kylewm aaronpk: does Monocle support reposts (the special handling we're talking about on github)?
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voxpelli aaronpk: +1 on that
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kylewm I'm leaning toward adding support for reposts to Woodwind as my hackday project, they've had me stymied for quite a while
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aaronpk kylewm: i thought so, but i'm not totally sure now
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aaronpk i know i'm parsing out the repost-of URL if it's there
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snarfed kylewm: planning >1mo out, that's admirable :P
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kylewm hahaha
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kylewm snarfed: planning <1 day out hasn't worked out too well for me in the past two IWCs i've been to ;)
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aaronpk heh yeah i have no idea what i'm gonna do for hack day yet, cause it depends so much on how much i finish before then!
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snarfed lol
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kylewm aaronpk: fyi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/repost-in-monocle.png
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aaronpk planning <1 day ahead has worked great for me cause i always end up doing something i never would have planned on doing ahead of time
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snarfed i have a bunch of ideas, but the best so far is probably still getting more of the community projects onto indieauth-to-github and push-to-deploy
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aaronpk kylewm: oh that is definitely not native repost support
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snarfed but there's a good chance aaronpk will convert the rest of them before then:P
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aaronpk the rest of them?! hah
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aaronpk there is a good chance i will get the indieauth-to-github done before
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snarfed i guess the first step is enumerating them :P
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snarfed at least the truly community-owned ones
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kylewm I'm pretty proud that my repost markup looks that good in your reader
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aaronpk lol yeah
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aaronpk ahhh i can't wait til i get to rebuild monocle too
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snarfed my other top contender for hack day is indie + silo SWAT0
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snarfed probably way more than a day project though :P
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aaronpk oh fun
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snarfed fun...as long as it's not FB :P
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aaronpk haha yeah
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snarfed btw i've been calling indieauth-to-github + push-to-deploy "radically open coding" in other correspondence
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snarfed (needed some kind of name :P)
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aaronpk nice
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snarfed we can probably come up with something better
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snarfed ahahaha kylewm wins the internets: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/529#issuecomment-151211586
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snarfed "HTTP 599: This is fine."
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aaronpk tehehe
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petermolnar I recommend a patch to https://github.com/joho/7XX-rfc with 'This is fine'.
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aaronpk haha my favorite is "724 - This line should be unreachable"
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aaronpk i have totally written that before, usually with an "exit" command so I can really be sure ;)
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petermolnar I should replace the default nginx 503 with 745
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tme5 hah: 720 - Unpossible
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petermolnar is 775 - Out of cash for sites running in AWS?
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aaronpk whoa twitter multi reply
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aaronpk kinda
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aaronparecki.com edited /YouTube (+270) (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: and I found all the ways people name the different parts of a URL http://tantek.com/2011/238/b1/many-ways-slice-url-name-pieces (twitter.com/_/status/658723896032669696)
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singpolyma wait... how long has twitter has *two* permalink formats?
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snarfed context?
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snarfed if you mean twtr.io, it's third party
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aaronpk since pretty much forever they've supported redirecting a "_" in the username to the correct account
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snarfed ah yes
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aaronpk but they also support "statuses" and "status" in the permalink
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aaronpk and yes twtr.io is a very small php script i wrote
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snarfed i wonder if mod_rewrite et al have the right string functions (base64 etc) to let you do it entirely in rewrite rules
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snarfed probably not
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aaronpk you could do it in nginx with a Lua script
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singpolyma snarfed: I mean /status/ vs /statuses/
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snarfed aaronpk: still code though!
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aaronpk so is a mod_rewrite rule ;)
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snarfed eh it's declarative
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snarfed a nice qualitative jump down
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@ShaneHudson RT @kylewmahan: An #indieweb message from the president https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/status/657980034351665152/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/658728024590958592)
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snarfed hey singpolyma btw, thanks for all the recent bridgy bug reports and feature requests
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aaronpk i suppose so :)
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snarfed much appreciated!
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@rmlewisuk RT @kylewmahan: An #indieweb message from the president https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/status/657980034351665152/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/658728144082481152)
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singpolyma snarfed: thanks for being such a responsive maintainer :)
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@bele_e RT @nueww: First IndieWebCamp in Nuremberg! Join us during the Nuremberg Web Week 2016. https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (twitter.com/_/status/658729916394033152)
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singpolyma Looking at twitter "quoted retweet" stuff -- I guess this is like <div class="p-content">I say some things <blockquote class="h-cite p-repeat-of>...
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KartikPrabhu what is quote?
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Loqi A quotation is a type of post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indiewebcamp.com/quote
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KartikPrabhu singpolyma: ^^
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singpolyma KartikPrabhu: thanks
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singpolyma Hmm. That says << Use a quotation when you are only quoting part of someone else's post, not the whole thing >>
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KartikPrabhu the whole thing would be a repost no?
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aaronpk it's not a repost if you're adding stuff to it
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KartikPrabhu then it is a quote
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KartikPrabhu even if it is the full thing
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aaronpk i would think so
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singpolyma hmm
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[kevinmarks] Singpolyma I came up with a way to do it with fragmentions
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[kevinmarks] http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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@paulmwatson RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: AMP, Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News are like 3 new browsers that only support a subset of … (twitter.com/_/status/658745906049753088)
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tantek huh - this ought to get interesting: http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/22/9587122/new-facebook-search-all-public-posts
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tantek (and provide more incentive to POSSE to FB)
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@ary3ss RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: AMP, Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News are like 3 new browsers that only support a subset of … (twitter.com/_/status/658749683456745472)
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gRegorLove blog-deaths: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/city-room-a-blog-with-a-broad-mandate-is-retiring/
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gRegorLove "eight years, 20,000 posts, 425,000 reader comments"
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gRegorLove "But Times blogs run on a different publishing platform from the rest of the Times website, and eventually we realized they were creating a lot of extra work."
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@offrayLC Dear Medium: Please stop hurting the web: http://devblog.avdi.org/2015/07/27/dear-medium-please-stop-hurting-the-web/ #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/658755953471463425)
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petermolnar gRegorLove, we used to have a small community site with an insame number of forum posts which thankfully went down as read-only
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petermolnar still present, but no interaction allowed anymore
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petermolnar this is probably a way to go for sites like the one you've mentioned
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gRegorLove Hopefully they will, yeah
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@singpolyma RT @offrayLC: Dear Medium: Please stop hurting the web: http://devblog.avdi.org/2015/07/27/dear-medium-please-stop-hurting-the-web/ #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/658756905414758400)
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gRegorLove Though that comment about being difficult to maintain on a separate publishing platform might mean it goes away after a while
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gRegorLove I bet Internet Archive is on it.
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singpolyma what about posts like https://singpolyma.net/actionstream/do-you-use-symbolic-links-care-to-share-what-for/ -- I mean, I realise in an ideal world I would have the content of the comment there, and it would be a reply with an in-contact citation (I think) -- but as-is it's not *really* a reply... more like an action update...
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@FemometerInc Every woman needs to know her body. Click to take control of yours: http://www.femometer.com/ #OwnYourData #Femometer https://twitter.com/FemometerInc/status/658762300912893952/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/658762300912893952)
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