#aaronpktantek: do you want to do ti.to or eventbrite tickets for IWC SF?
#tanteklet's do Eventbrite because I think (based on purely guessing) that it will notify more people "in our networks" that it is going on and that we've signed up to go to it
#tantektito is likely good to lower the barrier for sign-up for people who don't have a domain, yet one of our challenges is getting better about getting the word out
#tantekso hence leaning towards Eventbrite - make sense?
#tantekok - I used to do eventbrite events for my workshops - pretty sure I can still create them :)
#aaronpkmaybe we can do indieweb workshops soon :)
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#tantekI think that's a great idea for /business-models for folks in the community - especially those who have setup their own site to run with as little hassle as possible.
#tantekIn particular, given that there are whole businesses and independents who make money from setting up WordPress for businesses, I bet there is similar opportunity for someone to do so with setting up Known for businesses.
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#[shaners]Morning y’all! (from Georgia, US in EST)
#Loqi[shaners]: tantek left you a message 1 day, 6 hours ago: the reason I asked (and brought it up) is because in reading the CoC presuming good intentions, I have difficulty seeing anything explicitly against the letter of what it's stating. Hence looking for more intuitive/gut guidance what is the "right" thing to do, and how we can encourage that in CoC. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-02/line/1446451547265
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#kylewmhaving a little bit of a moral dilemma, I want to change my CMS kind of radically but don't want to worry about breaking it for my 2-3 users (at least until I figure out if my changes are good or bad)
#kylewmshould i make an experimental fork/branch, a new project, go closed source??
#davidpeachyer twitter I used guzzle. but with flickr i needed to do the whole create token request the have to be redirected to manually accept permissions page. So I thought Id give it a shot.
#tantekkylewm: sometimes a change is so radical it's quicker to show what the end result would/should look like rather than attempt to argue every change there iteratively
#tantekthat being said, AS2 is also shrinking which is good
#kevinmarksor would an explicit like post be a star and a link, which twitter would render as a star above the tweet being starred?
#tantekkylewm: in addition, it looks like jf2 will satisfy the 80/20, and then I'd expect that *someone* might develop a jf2->as2 proxy for folks that really want to go to the extra work of consuming as2
#tantekwhile publishing jf2 will be easier fo publishers
#tantek(easier for consuming code too - but that seems to be what's being debated?)
#singpolymaeven easier to skip the JSON and publish microformats (or mf2, I guess, in this community) ;)
#davidpeachanybody know why bridgy wouldnt be able to see webmention endpoints for flickr?
#davidpeachso i added a comment to my test post on flickr. And bridgy has found it fine and has it in my bridggy dashboard, but it cant find a webmention endpoint it says.
#tanteksingpolyma: correct. easiest for publishers is to publish mf2 which has a defined parsing model to jf2, which then API consuming code can trivially use
#singpolymatantek: why not have "API consuming code" use mf2 directly?
#tanteksingpolyma: good question - I think the wide demographic of webdevs writing JSON-consuming code are doing so because it is the current fashion.
#aaronpkthe current thinking is to link to the jf2 URL with a rel value. that lets you offload that conversion to a separate thing, like how pin13.net/mf2 works
#aaronpksingpolyma: yeah from what I can tell, some people are terrified of consuming mf2 because they think it's "scraping html"
#singpolymaYeah, ok. So, JSON is fashionable basically is the reason. Ok
#kylewmtantek: I do see where you're coming from. To be honest, it feels a little NIH-y to me :/
#aaronpkkylewm: it really is an attempt to solve it from both sides
#tantekkylewm: depends on perspective. jf2 is much closer to the JSON return values from various silo APIs - if anything, jf2 is *less* revinvention, but rather based on existing JSON API patterns.
#tantekand existing JSON API patterns deployed in the wild have far more webdev implementation/community "weight" than W3C working drafts
#kylewmanyway, solving it from both sides; that does make sense. if the goal is to experiment to inform the development of a unified standard then i'm all for it
#aaronpkkevinmarks: yes from what i've seen JSON is the preferred transport for iOS apps to APIs
#singpolymakevinmarks: the ones I work with do. because it's what they're "used to" (read: it's popular)
#kevinmarksjust wondering if they would prefer plists
#[snarfed]davidpeach: we want to support both (all!) syndication URL formats
#singpolymasnarfed: xml, understood properly, is more than just a generic format. it's a way to combine different specialised formats togther in a way that will let consumers that understand both benefit from the features of both
#snarfednot at all. it's always on us to make it work, however you use it, if at all possible
#kevinmarksif let johnsStreet = john.residence?.address?.street { print("John's street name is \(johnsStreet).") } else { print("Unable to retrieve the address.") }
#kevinmarksit's called 'optional chaining' which is a neat language feature
#singpolymakevinmarks: for there to be microformats on the HTML there would have to be some HTML ;)
#kylewmdoesn't seem like that to me singpolyma, seems like reddit with moderator tools and a code of conduct
#singpolymakylewm: reddit has moderator tools. If the company itself really was the issue, just take the code and run it on your own server or whatever
#singpolymawriting new code seems like overkiil for a social problem
#Loqisingpolyma meant to say: kylewm: I mean. some mods wanted more tools (and are getting them), but users can report posts to mods, and mods can remove posts or users
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#[kevinmarks]Hm, will web action toolbelt turn twitter hearts back into stars as a side effect?
#voxpellithe design goals of JSON API are really focused on what makes an API good, not necessarily what makes a data format good – I like many parts of it though, just something to be aware of
#voxpelli[shaners]: "A document MUST contain at least one of the following top-level members: data, errors, meta" – so your gist is for a JSON API resource object rather than a top level object, right?
#[shaners]btw, that example doesn’t have a uid or url in it. Seems important.
#voxpelli[shaners]: the only permitted top level attributes of a resource object apart from "id" and "typ" in JSON API is "attributes", "relationships", "links" and "meta" as I understand it
#voxpelli[shaners]: In the spirit of JSON API I would probably add a self-link or similar to the relationship, pointing to the URL of the h-card, but that would perhaps not be a 100% representative of the data
#voxpellidepends of whether the URL of a h-card can be seen as the canonical / source / self link of an h-card or not
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#[shaners]either you wanna fork my gist and add your changes?
#voxpelli[shaners]: the photo would probably be a relationship as well and not an attribute, no?
#aaronpk[shaners]: i'm expecting anyone who's publishing mf2 html will use a service to convert it to jf2. I also suspect some people will output jf2 directly.
#aaronpkare you saying a JSON document at a URL is not published content?
#voxpelliJSON makes sense when computers consumes ut, HTML makes sense when the consumer is unknown
#voxpellinot at all, I'm saying I don't see why one would want to use JSON to publish content
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#aaronpki still don't really get the original question. I link to the pin13.net mf2 service because that's easier for me than also publishing JSON. I will do the same for jf2
#voxpelliwhy should it be up to the publisher to pick a service to convert from mf2 to jf2? isn't it better for a consumer to decide whether it wants to parse the data itself or have someone else do it for them?
#aaronpkvoxpelli: it's more a question of whether the publisher a) wants to publish jf2 directly or b) offloads that
#aaronpkalso it doesn't have to be a conversion from microformats to jf2, you can publish jf2 without microformats behind it, which i'm expecting some people will do
#voxpelliwhy would the publisher ever want to publish jf2 if jf2 is an implementation detail of a consumer?
#aaronpkwho said jf2 is an implementation detail of a consumer?
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#davidpeachanybody know the best oauth2 client to use for php (laravel specifically). I use guzzle for twitter oauth1, but need oauth2 for new project
#voxpelliI'm, very surpised to hear this when publishing data as RSS has generally been something that people have been fairly critical about due to eg. DRY-concerns. What differs jf2 from eg. RSS?
#aaronpkdavidpeach: in contrast to oauth1, oauth 2 is actually simple enough you don't really need a library. also oauth 2 APIs tend to be different enough that a library won't help much
#aaronpkvoxpelli: but it's also for people who don't believe publishing HTML is useful
#voxpelliaaronpk: one can do the very same with RSS/Atom feeds, no?
#davidpeachwhat do you guys think of the whole https-only stuff? I heard mozilla will be deprecating http access or something?
#aaronpkyes. and the same people who aren't a huge fan of publishing HTML are also not a huge fan of XML ;)
#voxpelliok, I really shouldn't argue about this right now, too tired, but I'm really not convinced why people should suddenly start publishing jf2-data – as a format for API:s I'm pro it, as a format for publishing data on the web I'm against
#aaronpkvoxpelli: it's still early for this for sure. but for starters, it can serve as a simplified json representation of microformats if nothing else.
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#[shaners]Ok. I went a little deeper on the jf2/jsonapi conversion.
#voxpelliaaronpk: I'd say that it's especially too early to start publishing such links – if consumers start to widely adopt the jf2 format then it could make sense to have clients be able to publish it directly
#aaronpkyeah i'm not publishing jf2 links any time soon
#[shaners]Actually, i think i’m doing it wrong. I think all the nested stuff is meant to go down at the bottom in an included section. Instead of nested inline.
#voxpelli[shaners]: I wonder if one could consider the url-attributes redundant as the id:s of those types will always(?) be url:s? and if they are not URL:s then a self-link would probably be more representative anyhow?
#voxpelli[shaners]: depends on whether you reference the same object multiple times in the same response – then you want a reference to a top-included object instead
#voxpelliso in an h-feed for example you wouldn't want to inline the h-card in every line but rather reference a top level object
#voxpelliit's a rather neat pattern – like a GraphQL Lite
#voxpelliok, maybe lets keep it that way and have the discussion about exposing it go by another name as that's pretty separate from the actual format used? One could eg. expose the current mf2 JSON as well
#voxpelli(if we should take notice from the OStatus / Activity Streams communities also – any mandatory switching of data formats is a pretty dangerous move – I have rewritten too much code because of such things)
#sandroHmmm. Is anyone ( aaronpk? rhiaro? ) running something on their server that would let me be notified of new content without polling? I feel like I'm missing something obvious.
#LoqiThis page is a description of a minimum viable subset of PuSH 0.4 that is sufficient for supporting the IndieWeb use cases of realtime publishing feeds of h-entry posts, and subscribing to & receiving notifications of updates from those feeds https://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push
#voxpelli(Just used Requestb.in to debug a PuSH flow, worked great as a webhook for a subscription)
#[aaronpk]Oh really? Do they echo the challenge for you?