#indiewebcamp 2015-11-04

2015-11-04 UTC
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@kevinmarks @rabble some here too http://indiewebcamp.com/static_site_generator (twitter.com/_/status/661694640261718016)
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@rabble @kevinmarks Yeah, but i went through the indieweb ones and found them ugly. ;-D (twitter.com/_/status/661694752228667393)
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@kevinmarks @rabble Also, you can use http://webmention.herokuapp.com for static sites like I do (twitter.com/_/status/661694852854190080)
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davidpeach right then, im off for the night. night night all
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@kevinmarks @rabble if you're in Portland at the moment, there's Homebrew Website Club tomorrow night: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-11-04-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/661695244967149568)
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kevinmarks "The extra tags are part of what's known as Web components, which will likely become a Web standard (or it might turn out to be "ActiveX part 2," only the future knows for sure)."
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kevinmarks http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/
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KartikPrabhu or XML part 2
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KartikPrabhu custom tags
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KartikPrabhu actually the worst case scenario is that every one invents their own tag+JS to do exactly the same thing
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kevinmarks isn't that called react/angular/whateverthisweeksfaveis
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs>
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@rabble some here too indiewebcamp.com/static_site_ge…' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661694640261718016)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@rabble Also, you can use webmention.herokuapp.com for static sites like I do' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661694852854190080)
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Loqi [bridgy] rabble replied '@kevinmarks There's so many static site generators! staticgen.com' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661693975523233792)
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Loqi [bridgy] rabble replied '@kevinmarks Yeah, but i went through the indieweb ones and found them ugly. ;-D' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661694752228667393)
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Loqi [bridgy] rabble replied '@kevinmarks Yeah, but i went through the indieweb ones and found them ugly. ;-D' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/static_site_generator (https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661694752228667393)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@rabble if you're in Portland at the moment, there's Homebrew Website Club tomorrow night: indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-11…' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661695244967149568)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@rabble if you're in Portland at the moment, there's Homebrew Website Club tomorrow night: indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-11…' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/static_site_generator (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661695244967149568)
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aaronpk well that's odd. what happened to the clustering?
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Loqi [bridgy] rabble replied '@kevinmarks I'm looking for shit to steal for pio.io experiments. And yes i've been to the Homebrew website club meetings.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661695349669675008)
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kevinmarks just got a 500 from http://indiewebify.me/send-webmentions/ too
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aaronpk orly! file an issue! we can fix that easily now :)
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kevinmarks done https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/46
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@kevinmarks “publishers…the real future is speeding up their own pages and embracing a POSSE-style approach” @luxagraf http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/661702748736323584)
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GWG Evening
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GWG Reading about notifications in the wiki
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kylewm that's a pretty sweet POSSE shout out in ars technica
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GWG Kylewm, since I am reading about it, do you do push notifications?
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GWG Hello tantek
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tantek ducks, but not before being spotted!
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GWG Hiding from the public?
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tantek which public? /publics
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GWG The chat room
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kevinmarks shame the webmentions didn't work
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GWG What webmentions?
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tantek kevinmarks: were they on strike? ;)
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kevinmarks https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/46
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kylewm GWG: yeah, I use pushover (I think at your recommendation)
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kevinmarks possibly arstechnica's page was so big it choked the parser
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GWG Tantek, in that sort of mood today?
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tantek GWG - very - election day
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GWG Kylewm, I am more contemplating the design, not the delivery. What do you notify for?
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kylewm GWG: non-bridgy replies/likes/reposts
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GWG What prompted that decision?
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kylewm things I didn't have another mechanism to be notified for. I originally got notifications for all webmentions, but it was too noisy
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GWG I'm thinking about a two stage plan.
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GWG First, notifications for all.
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GWG Second, clustered notifications
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GWG I'm trying to figure out the algorithm for clustering
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kylewm GWG: good starting point https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/39#issuecomment-123388057
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kylewm it was ... complicated
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kylewm ohh, this bridgy/flickr bug hurts. I had extras = ['description' 'tags', 'date_uploaded']
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kylewm missing comma meant it was asking for descriptiontags and quietly failing
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KartikPrabhu err what! how was that not some error that was caught?
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KartikPrabhu i mean by the python interpreter?
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kylewm treats adjacent literal strings as one continuous string (apparently)
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KartikPrabhu really!
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KartikPrabhu yeah. you're right! never noticed that before
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KartikPrabhu very very strange
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: https://docs.python.org/2.0/ref/string-catenation.html
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KartikPrabhu you can even put comments in between!
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@obra @rjbs I'm pretty sure you're looking for anything labeled indieweb. Or maybe just blosxom. (twitter.com/_/status/661770162203312128)
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techlifeweb Off topic: Anyone have a favorite IRC client for Android?
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[number5] @techlifeweb AndroIRC, but I would prefer slack client if possible
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Loqi [number5]: bear left you a message 2 weeks, 5 days ago: the error you got for the validate-h-card - can you put into this issue what URL you were testing? https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/43 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-15/line/1444968954251
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techlifeweb [number5]: thanks. AndroIRC seems to be the best. I miss buddy support like Pidgin and MIRc have on the desktop.
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__number5__ logi: tell bear I'm using my blog https://brucewang.net with http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/ when I got the error. Just tested, it had been fixed
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__number5__ tell bear I'm using my blog https://brucewang.net with http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/ when I got the error. Just tested, it had been fixed
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__number5__ !tell bear I'm using my blog https://brucewang.net with http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/ when I got the error. Just tested, it had been fixed
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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__number5__ sorry about the spam
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[snarfed] techlifeweb: or use the slack app and bridge. probably better than irc, at least in mobile!
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tantek reads logs and sees a few things he missed from this morning
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tantek Twitter switched from start/favorite to heart/like? Sounds like they just copied Instagram's UI icon/text there.
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kevinmarks_ did you see my suggestion for replacing it?
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tantek Does seem to add weight to likes / faves being treated as the same thing
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tantek kevinmarks_: didn't I already reply to that with the point about Slack? ;)
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kevinmarks_ I'm going to write it up properly
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tantek !tell kevinmarks, KartikPrabhu lol re: criticism of "isomorphic" code and "isn't actually much code that can or should be re-used in the two environments" - I'll just keep coding more of it then to disprove that statement with my open source existence proof. :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kevinmarks_ I think the broader point is a js;dr one to some extent
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tantek tbrb++ for organizing HWC Edi in advance!
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Loqi kevinmarks_: tantek left you a message 44 seconds ago: lol re: criticism of "isomorphic" code and "isn't actually much code that can or should be re-used in the two environments" - I'll just keep coding more of it then to disprove that statement with my open source existence proof. :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-03/line/1446620200091
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Loqi tbrb has 9 karma
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tantek kevinmarks - your replacement suggestion would/could be more interesting if you provided suggested UX for summarizing its display perhaps similar to the summary displays that Slack provides
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tantek e.g. Slack doesn't just show a series of "so-and-so said * in reply to ...", Slack shows a * character with a count on it. Perhaps single-character replies could be facepiled.
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kevinmarks_ well, if we treat them as a kind of reply they are
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tantek no need to do any special "kind of" treatment
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kevinmarks_ if you look at how we are converging webmentions, we have heart/star and recycle
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tantek my point is the receiving site can already algorithmically present different UI for one-character replies
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tantek no need for special post type etc.
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kevinmarks_ if I like one of your posts with woodwind/known we get this already, almost
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kevinmarks_ well, apart from your title abuse http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/-photos-b-aakamaihdnethphotos-ak-xaf1t512885-15e3512145332_1662314194043465_2009449288_njpg-p9xvbira9cjsocial-web-session-w3c-tpac2015-in-sapporo-hokkaido-japan
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kevinmarks_ note the presentation there
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tantek hey we have an algorithm for dealing with that
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kevinmarks_ now if I like the tweet like this: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661802300407545856
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@kevinmarks 🌟 https://twitter.com/t/status/659200761427980288 (twitter.com/_/status/661802300407545856)
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kevinmarks_ the plaintext presentation is star and link
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kevinmarks_ the twitter presentation is star above a quoted version
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tantek hey that's a neat hack
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tantek you could add a bit more prose for friendlier, more FB-like prose
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tantek e.g.
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tantek 🌟 likes a photo (link to photo or quoted photo)
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tantek 🌟likes (link to note or quoted note)
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kevinmarks_ this shows how I did it wrong at first: https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/661603446789832705
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@girlziplocked DONT DO THIS. https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661603205533470720 (twitter.com/_/status/661603446789832705)
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kevinmarks_ the @name 🌟 form is bad
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kevinmarks_ but Holly replying by quoting made me realise how to do it right
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kevinmarks_ heh, Holly is working it https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/661804232891310080
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@girlziplocked @justkelly_ok 😱 (twitter.com/_/status/661804232891310080)
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kevinmarks_ vs https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/661804351065837568
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@girlziplocked 😱😱😱😱😱 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/661803297200668672 (twitter.com/_/status/661804351065837568)
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tantek and all of a sudden I'm seeing heart icons in my Twitter web UI
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tantek guess I better update my webaction UI on my permalinks!
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tantek https://dev.twitter.com/overview/general/image-resources#tweet-actions-like
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tantek funny thing is, I was already using the prose "Like" instead of "Favorite" :D
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tantek (deliberately)
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tantek updated /Falcon to use a heart icon on my post permalink likes
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tantek like webactions that is
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tantek from that URL: "Like a Tweet / https://twitter.com/intent/favorite"
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kevinmarks_ I've been using hearts already
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tantek how's this for an IndieWebCamp "Tagline":
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tantek "Creating the future of the independent open web"
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tantek is creating Lanyrd events, ironically
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nitot tantek: love it!
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tantek thank you nitot!
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Jihaisse tantek : why future ?
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Jihaisse we are building it right now, no ?
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tantek Jihaisse: because https://indiewebcamp.com/#Beyond_Blogging_and_Decentralization
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tantek as in, we claiming that what we create at indiewebcamps will be de fact for the independent open web in the future
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tantek we are building now yes, we are not yet de facto
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tantek but we will be because we are building better than today's de facto, simpler, easier, more functional, and more able to replace silo-usage.
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tantek.com edited /2015/SF (+56) "Lanyrd event" (view diff)
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Jihaisse ok
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KartikPrabhu "creating the once and future Web"
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 42 minutes ago: lol re: criticism of "isomorphic" code and "isn't actually much code that can or should be re-used in the two environments" - I'll just keep coding more of it then to disprove that statement with my open source existence proof. :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-03/line/1446620200091
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tantek once? wouldn't doint it again make it twice?
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tantek creating once also sounds like creating the past which doesn't make sense
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KartikPrabhu once as in "the Web that once was"
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KartikPrabhu also a play on "The Once and Future King"
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KartikPrabhu I think a lot of people who "miss" the past Web without silos would be attracted to in the indieweb idea
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tantek I'd rather focus on attracting new participants rather than those that reminisce
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KartikPrabhu fiar enough
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tantek like yourself :)
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KartikPrabhu well I did web stuff before silos if Blogger counts
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KartikPrabhu if not, then sure!
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tantek.com edited /2015/MIT (+57) "/* URLs */ Lanyrd" (view diff)
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@amyeee @knebworthchap The internets are all walled gardens and silly data monoliths now anyway. I say let's all go IndieWeb https://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/661833559125180416)
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kevinmarks_ https://twitter.com/girlziplocked/status/661794170261082112
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@girlziplocked At least it wasn't the eggplant emoji because who knows with Twitter at this point. https://twitter.com/ameliaabreu/status/661793239846879232 (twitter.com/_/status/661794170261082112)
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GWG Morning, all
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petermolnar good morning
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petermolnar GWG I have a story from yesterday: I ended up with 250k _wp_old_slug entries in postmeta table by re-adding shorturls on every single visit; and the site was still up, except for one post which kept crashing PHP :)
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GWG odd
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@jgmac1106 @zooko @brennannovak @wiretapped Check out this aggregator love the look: http://connectedcourses.net/ #indieweb. Thats what I want. (twitter.com/_/status/661894119761965057)
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@jgmac1106 @zooko @brennannovak @wiretapped I also like the feed reader looks of the "planets" http://planet.webmakerprototypes.org/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/661894368396115968)
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@jgmac1106 @zooko @brennannovak @wiretapped If I could have one thing it would be a feed reader with learning as an essential design element. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/661894491926827008)
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@petermolnar @jgmac1106 learning in what terms? 'Cause this could be interesting. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/661900458047467522)
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@ShaneHudson @thelogosmith My website with similar features (http://indiewebcamp.com has loads of pages about them). (twitter.com/_/status/661903908957200384)
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@ShaneHudson @thelogosmith An aim of it is to bring the power of indieweb to people who usually use tumblr. Sure @benwerd can answer any questions :) (twitter.com/_/status/661906854616965120)
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davidpea.ch edited /jam (+87) "Add david peach to indieweb examples" (view diff)
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@coreymwamba webmentions people, could you please mention http://www.coreymwamba.co.uk/services/webmention/A.php and help me test? (twitter.com/_/status/661933933462994944)
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@coreymwamba Or rather, #webmention people. Here's the link I'd like to test: http://www.coreymwamba.co.uk/services/webmention/A.php (twitter.com/_/status/661934332915879936)
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ben_thatmustbeme http://stream.thatmustbe.us/jsonapi.php?url=ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/26
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ben_thatmustbeme converting to jsonAPI attempt 1
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kylewm davidpeach: do you have any idea why Bridgy might think your Flickr username is davidpeach rather than davidpeach1?
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davidpeach ummm
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davidpeach in flickr settings my screen name is set to davidpeach, but the account davidpeach is a different person
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aaronpk is this the problem with flickr vs yahoo accounts?
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davidpeach my yahoo one is david1peach
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davidpeach when i re-auth with bridgy, the flickr screen says "Hi davidpeach"
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davidpeach maybe it's picking up the screen name?
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kylewm yeah I bet it's an artifact of the acquisition by yahoo
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kylewm my username and path were different for a very long time
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kylewm now that i think of it
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kylewm davidpeach: would you expect your bridgy url to be brid.gy/flickr/davidpeach or brid.gy/flickr/davidpeach1?
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kylewm trying to decide if i should store both values or just use the path_alias
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davidpeach davidpeach1 as it's my flickr url
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davidpeach thank you.
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Jeena Ok we're starting drinking beer here at the HWC GOT
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tantek nice!
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tantek hopefully you've taken a photo?
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Jeena not yet but soon
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tantek um wow we have 6 IndieWeb Examples of /jam posts - guess that means I have to add it to /post-type-discovery! https://indiewebcamp.com/jam#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk wow
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tantek Who's willing to be that among AS2's vocab/taxonomy that there is no "jam" post type?
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tantek empirical > aspirational / architecture astronomy
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tantek kylewm: how's that "play music" option in Woodwind coming along? ;)
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aaronpk you all are giving me too many ideas for monocle
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tantek wonders if there's a /Monocle#Itches section ;)
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aaronpk i gotta launch my new site before i can go anywhere near that
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tantek you can still add to it
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tantek without doing them
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tantek that way there's no "too many" to distract you from launching your new site
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kylewm tantek: I haven't tried yet! but I did add an issue for post-type-discovery :) https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/issues/9
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tantek.com edited /post (+34) "how to - link post-type-discovery" (view diff)
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aaronpk I do have a bunch of notes as github issues
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aaronpk and some sketches on paper
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tantek nice
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tantek wow we have more people that have posted jam posts than RSVP posts
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tantek wat
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tantek totally unexpected aggregate itch-scratching result
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tantek.com edited /posts (+0) "/* Kinds of Posts */ more sites with events now, and jams too" (view diff)
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tantek roughly sorted (edit to see groupings by # of sites posting) https://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Kinds_of_Posts
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davidpeach kylewm: Ive re-authed
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davidpeach still not picking up though
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aaronpk i still don't even understand what a jam is
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tantek what is a jam?
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Loqi jam is an active type of post used to share a song that you are recently enjoying https://indiewebcamp.com/jam
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aaronpk so kind of like a scrobble but more intentionally created?
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tantek way more intentionally created
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tantek like, hey I really like this song right now
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davidpeach if you hear a particular song that sticks out to you, jam it
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aaronpk and the "right now" part is important?
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davidpeach @tantek @aaronpk https://www.thisismyjam.com/
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aaronpk as in, it's not just a bookmark/favorite of a song?
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davidpeach I suppose it is yer
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aaronpk oh wow the profile view is great, showing each year https://www.thisismyjam.com/helloerica
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tantek aaronpk: yes it's been turned into an archive
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davidpeach @aaronpk Yer they've done a great job with it. The site closed doors recently, but kept it in read-only mode, so people's jams aren't lost
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aaronpk now i want to make a page on my site like that that shows my top scrobbles by year
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tantek davidpeach many will rot over time as overzealous DMCA takedowns continue to delete silo content
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tantek aaronpk: for scrobble stats displays, lastfm still has some of the best graphs/charts etc.
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aaronpk true
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davidpeach @tantek agreed. I ported my old ones to my site today.
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davidpeach although they are all youtube iframes so same probs i suppose
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kylewm davidpeach: i think it will pick up your most recent comment the next time it goes through and rechecks syndication links (every ~2 hours)
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davidpeach kylewm: cool thanks
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@ZoeGilbyMusic RT @coreymwamba: webmentions people, could you please mention http://www.coreymwamba.co.uk/services/webmention/A.php and help me test? (twitter.com/_/status/661952843692302336)
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aaronpk interesting, most people don't include the name of the song in the "jam" post
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tantek it's included for them
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aaronpk in the youtube embed?
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tantek they don't include the name explicitly in their "description" of it
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tantek because thisismyjam already puts it on the post for you
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tantek aaronpk: see my /jam POSSE examples on that page
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aaronpk not talking about thisismyjam posts
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aaronpk i'm looking at the original posts on /jam
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tantek huh
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aaronpk even yours! http://tantek.com/2015/047/t7/mornings-look-for-me-trackish-tuesday
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aaronpk link to youtube url, quote of lyrics, "Trackish Tuesday 0600" which i assume is an event name
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tantek sure - the first line of the lyric is the song name
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tantek no need to repeat myself :P
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aaronpk no artist name tho
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tantek true - I think song name is more resonant
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aaronpk aw vimeo embed is gone http://tantek.com/2015/231/t1/depend-snowflake-apis-born-slippy
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tantek like I said to davidpeach above "many will rot..."
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tantek ironic that "Born slippy" indeed slipped away :P
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davidpeach i think manually including the artist and title is important
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davidpeach so any embeds are treated as enhancements
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aaronpk i would definitely include the artist and title if I published those on my site
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aaronpk yes that
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tantek or at least as fallbacks for the embed
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tantek using an object or something
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tantek hmmm
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek I wonder if youtube iframes work if you embed them as objects!
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tantek that way you could include fallback content inside the object!
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davidpeach im off out people. prob speak later tonight.
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tantek hmm I need a syndication link icon for thisismyjam links
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tantek even if it is legacy :/
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tantek Maybe I'll just use an emoji
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tantek and just obsessed over whitespace / vertical alignment pixels on my post footer webactions / syndication links
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aaronpk oh man yeah
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tantek wow that was bugging me for a long time
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tantek I just really am not motivated by pixel-pushing. But now I'm much happier it looks so much tidier.
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tantek lol now I have to fix mobile safari :P
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tantek of course fix it in FF = looks good in desktop Safari
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tantek but mobile safari, sigh.
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kevinmarks_ so much -webkit-
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@itsericwoodward Good thoughts on the limitations of #AMP, and why #IndieWeb is better. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/ (twitter.com/_/status/661968717853679616)
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tantek wow
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aaronpk oh hey we're mentioned there!
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tantek I think arstechnica qualifies for posts about the indieweb
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Loqi [indienews] New post: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/ (from http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks/2015/11/04/1/indieweb-amp) http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/
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aaronpk enjoys bookmarking posts and syndicating them to indienews
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snarfed aaronpk: should we make indienews support that natively?
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snarfed ie drop the backlink req't?
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aaronpk no way!
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snarfed !
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aaronpk it supports it natively now!
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snarfed it doesn't
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aaronpk you have to bookmark it on your own site to submit it, but it shows up as the bookmarked site
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snarfed right
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aaronpk that's good
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snarfed i meant directly, without a bookmark
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snarfed sure, bookmarks are nice
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aaronpk you mean like submitting stuff to reddit?
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snarfed got me, i don't use reddit
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aaronpk digg? hackernews?
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snarfed nope nope
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snarfed but probably yes. ability to submit a page even if it doesn't link to indienews
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aaronpk that's what it does
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snarfed so confused
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aaronpk i submitted arstechnica even though arstechnica doesn't link to indienews
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aaronpk look at the link on http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en it links to arstechnica.com directly!
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snarfed i did this maybe 10m ago:
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snarfed curl -v -d 'source=http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/googles-amp-an-internet-giant-tackles-the-old-myth-of-the-web-is-too-slow/&target=http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en' http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/webmention
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snarfed ...
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snarfed < HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
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snarfed ...
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snarfed {"error":"no_link_found","error_description":"No h-entry was found on the page, so we were unable to find a u-syndication or u-category URL."}
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aaronpk yeah that doesn't make sense
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snarfed oh nm
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snarfed no h-entry
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aaronpk still, taht would be bad
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snarfed my fault for not reading closely enough. nm.
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aaronpk that makes it open to spamming
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snarfed eh in theory but not necessarily in practice
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snarfed no wm spam seen in the wild yet, right?
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snarfed anyway, nm. i don't feel strongly. :P
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aaronpk it's not even webmention spam i'm worried about
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aaronpk basically whenever there is a form on the internet that someone can put things in, it will be spammed. at least with requiring you submit a bookmark, it means the spammer has to host the bookmark on a URL
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aaronpk the latest change I did with indienews was to allow you to submit things that don't link to indienews, you just have to bookmark them yourself to submit them
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snarfed sure
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Jeena there is a picture right now https://jeena.net/events/8
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snarfed minor nit: there's no form on indienews, right?
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@followthewabbit RT @coreymwamba: webmentions people, could you please mention http://www.coreymwamba.co.uk/services/webmention/A.php and help me test? (twitter.com/_/status/661972679113777152)
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snarfed regardless, understood
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aaronpk I just don't think accepting unsolicited post requests to add things directly to the site is a good idea
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aaronpk this way you also see who added it, which is nice
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aaronpk anyway, I do feel strongly about this, so maybe I should add that as an FAQ :)
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[kevinmarks] Aaronpk: that was the post I was trying to send webmentions from yesterday
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aaronpk oh yeah
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aaronpk i'm guessing the 500 error was a timeout error. we'll have to figure out a solution for that for indiewebify.me
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[kevinmarks] Now it's on appengine you can use task queues
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aaronpk true! that will be good
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snarfed taskqueues++
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Loqi taskqueues has 1 karma
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snarfed the python deferred lib lets you run code on a task queue with literaly a single line: deferred.defer(do_something_expensive, "arg", other_arg=True)
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snarfed PHP may have something similar
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tantek how about a form on indienews where you can submit your bookmark permalink?
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aaronpk yeah i'd add that
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aaronpk with appropriate error messages when someone tries to submit something like arstechnica directly :)
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snarfed "cut it out, ryan"
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snarfed :P
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aaronpk whee https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/22
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aaronpk ooh feature request for granary, give me the resulting URL as a string I can copy paste
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kylewm doesn't it do that already?
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aaronpk not that i can see
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kylewm are you not talking about the blue text here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/granary-link.png
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aaronpk i didn't see that on mine
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kylewm !
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aaronpk https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9c4ifm4b2lv0tc/Screenshot%202015-11-04%2010.45.58.png?dl=0
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snarfed it's populated by JS :) :(
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kylewm ahh, it's not doing it on the microformats one
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aaronpk i'm not blocking js or anything
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snarfed huh ok
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snarfed feature request/bug report indeed then
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snarfed wow also the button layout is kinda broken
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snarfed which browser aaronpk?
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aaronpk chrome on osx
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snarfed huh ok. does shift refresh fix it?
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aaronpk no
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snarfed odd ok
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snarfed meh
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kylewm same in firefox at 1024 width
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snarfed ah thanks
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aaronpk oh yeah it's only at a certain width
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voxpelli an interesting extension of the bookmark + submit to IndieNews is if multiple people bookmarks + submits to IndieNews – then you have Reddit-voting more or less
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snarfed yeah it's only broken on one width segment
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aaronpk voxpelli: true! i'd better check what happens when two people submit the same url
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kylewm document.getElementById('site') is null
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kylewm that's the problem with the js for microformats/activitystreams
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snarfed thanks!
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aaronpk I was going to go comment on the indienews issue that asked to add an RSS feed which is how I discovered that :)
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aaronpk i think i'm going to add that link in the HTML
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aaronpk if you don't mind :)
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aaronpk looks like task queues in php appengine are done by having app engine post to a specific route
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aaronpk that's nice, that means not a lot of custom appengine code
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voxpelli wonder if it would be possible to forward PuSH-pings from HTML to Atom versions in Granary? what do you think snarfed?
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voxpelli so as long as there's a PuSH-subscriber to the Atom-version Granary will have a PuSH-subscriber to the HTML-version
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kylewm voxpelli: we talked about this before I think, why not just subscribe to the hub for the atom feed?
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voxpelli kylewm: if I want to convert an h-feed to atom then only the h-feed will have a hub, not the atom feed, and with fat pings you're supposed to consume the content of the ping
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kylewm !karma fatpings
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Loqi fatpings has -2 karma
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kevinmarks right, you enqueue a series of tasks that manifest as POSTs later
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kylewm the discussion previously went that way -- don't use fat pings, and there's no problem
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voxpelli and even without considering the fat pings, Granary would have to expose PuSH-discovery data
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kylewm yeah granary would need to publish a Link header
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voxpelli and fat pings is kind of part of PuSH so one can't really ignore it – especially when considering established feed clients
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snarfed also probably not a great fit for the granary webapp specifically, since it doesn't currently do anything in the background, polling or otherwise, and probably shouldn't since it's just a demo for the lib
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snarfed ...but i could see this kind of functionality as an extension of https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/420
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voxpelli I'm thinking of building my mentions push notifications like h-feed -> push -> convert to atom -> push -> ifttt/feedbin/feed subscriber
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kylewm it's too bad proxying a PuSH enabled feed is so much work
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kylewm I will be surprised if anyone takes that on
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snarfed kylewm: we're talking about adding PuSH by proxy to a non-PuSH site, right?
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voxpelli it would be fairly easy to just forward the ping
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snarfed that's superfeedr, right?
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voxpelli no, just forwarding a PuSH ping from the source to the converted output
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snarfed oh ok
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snarfed withdraws
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voxpelli kylewm: snarfed: what about exposing another property in Granary that, if specified, adds discovery data for the specified PuSH-hub – and leaves the actual notification to that hub up to the creator?
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snarfed voxpelli: maybe, sure!
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snarfed i don't know PuSH so i defer to kylewm
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voxpelli snarfed: it's basically just adding a rel-hub and a rel-self link in the Atom and the same in the HTTP-headers
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tantek hey what was the PuSH related question that Sandro asked earlier?
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tantek we should document that as an FAQ
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Loqi yea!
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tantek usually when sandro asks a question, it's a tip-of-the-iceberg type query
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kylewm snarfed: I think what voxpelli was talking about was having granary (originally we wanted unmung to do this too) subscribe to the original push hub, and when it receives update pings from the original, send pings of its own for theproxied content
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kylewm so proxying a push-enabled feed to a push-enabled feed of another format
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voxpelli kylewm: that was my original idea, but that sounds complex, much easier to just let the one who wants a hub to be pinged to take care of that itself
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voxpelli and only have you take care of the only part you need to take care of – the discovery
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tantek does anyone do full-bleed photo/video presentation on their home page or permalinks?
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voxpelli added an issue for it: https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/53
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snarfed kylewm: voxpelli: right, ok. that's a significant addition to what's currently just a demo for a library, so i'm not sure it would belong in granary-demo or bridgy (alongside https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/420) or somewhere else
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snarfed open to thoughts
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snarfed thanks voxpelli!
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kylewm assuming your consumer is smart enough to look at the fat ping content and say "hey I asked for Atom, not HTML!" and go and fetch the proxied content itself...
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snarfed i guess it's more than demo, it's a REST service...but still
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tantek I'm looking for "nice" mobile presentation examples to document and use as inspiration for (re)writing some CSS
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tantek tries to hard to bring up a presentation/UI/UX topic among the plumbing discussions :P
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kylewm am I missing something voxpelli? It seems like we switched opinions :)
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voxpelli snarfed: kylewm: the way I suggested it in the ticket one could easily do the necessary pinging outside of granary – either from the original source or by chaining it onto existing PuSH-notifications
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kylewm reads
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kevinmarks nice mobile presentation of what, tantek?
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voxpelli if eg. aaronpk were to add the granary feed to indienews he could easily ping any push hub specified in that feed whenever the front page of indienews updates
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tantek kevinmarks: repeating for your benefit: does anyone do full-bleed photo/video presentation on their home page or permalinks?
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tantek s/presentation/presentation for mobile/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kevinmarks: repeating for your benefit: does anyone do full-bleed photo/video presentation for mobile on their home page or permalinks?
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kevinmarks look at AMP layouts?
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tantek already have Instagram as a good silo example
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tantek if you have a specific URL to suggest (even silo) for mobile presentation inspiration - please provide!
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tantek I still find myself using Instagram as my #1 most frequent "reader" "app" and thus am trying to figure out what about its presentation is so compelling, and if I can replicate that on my homepage and permalinks
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tantek but I figured I'd see if anyone has indieweb mobile presentation that they're particularly happy with
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kevinmarks go to g.co/amp onmobile and search for fashion
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tantek wow that blogger stylig on mobile kinda sucks - way too much whitespace L/R margins
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Vendor-prefix (+66) "/* Examples */ add x-amz-" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks: "no matches" for fashion on this page
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kevinmarks hm
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kevinmarks I mena in the search box
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rickardg Hmm, indiewebify.me says it can't fetch my google+ profile, but I can log in to the indiewebcamp wiki using it?
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kevinmarks you get the thumbnails and the amp layouts which tend to be full bleed
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tantek kevinmarks: makes no sense - g.co/amp is a blogger blog post permalink
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tantek what search box?
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ben_thatmustbeme wonder if i should start adding sections for that vendor prefixes pages for where they are used
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kevinmarks oh, g.co/ampdemo
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ben_thatmustbeme was just curling something and found x-amz- http headers... hadn't seen that before
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rickardg Also, indiewebify.me says my twitter profile doesn't link back, but thats a known bug?
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tantek rickardg - likely because of Twitter's t.coing of profile links to sites
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aaronpk i bet indiewebify.me isn't as good about following redirects
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aaronpk i spent a long time on that for indieauth.com
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tantek kevinmarks: ok I see it now. two things.
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aaronpk you would be surprised the number of redirects people expect to work. when people put in "example.com" in their twitter profile which redirects to "http://www.example.com" which redirects to "https://www.example.com/" on top of the t.co thing
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tantek 1. sidescroll(crawl) sucks for content usability.
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tantek 2. the card-styling they're using for displaying the images are good for indicating "this is a preview of content elsewhere", but very bad for your own content. too much grayscale framing noise
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kevinmarks if you click trouhg to NYT ones and scroll those sideways
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kevinmarks you get a decent full-bleed layout
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tantek their presentation is usable, but wastes a lot of space for white/grayspace which is poor usability on mobile
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tantek (that was re: google amp demo results for fashion)
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tantek interesting. nytimes.com on mobile is strangely inconsistent. some of their featured images for articles are full bleed, and others have odd L/R margins
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kevinmarks odd, buzzfeed doesn't do full bleed on mobile
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tantek neither does sfchronicle.com
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kevinmarks medium does
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tantek sfchronicle.com typography for election 2015 box uses underlined headings (unlinked), with non-underlined article links below. you would think in this day and age that underline = link (not the opposite!) would be obvious
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+68) "/* mobile design */ full bleed photos examples, IG, mobile nytimes" (view diff)
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rickardg tantek: aaronpk thanks, as long as something works I'm happy, just to be clear though, on the wiki g+ works but not twitter
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aaronpk oh twitter still doesn't work logging in to the wiki?
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aaronpk what's your site? I can probably figure out the issue :)
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aaronpk actually it's probably this https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/107
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kevinmarks hm, is there a drawback to adding img,video {max-width: 100vw;} globally to do full bleed on mobile?
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kevinmarks you can override for things you actually wnt wier then the screen
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tantek kevinmarks: I'm looking at it as one (major) part of fixing my mobile presentation in general - everytime I look at it I notice more problems to fix :/
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kevinmarks ok, added that to svgur.com adn ti looks good
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tantek I think I need to break down the parts of a post for mobile presentation (both permalink and instream like homepage) and fix them as a whole rather than piecemeal.
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tantek author / header, name (if any), text/photo, webactions / syndication links
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kevinmarks now I have my head around flexbox a bit more, it seems like a good way to think about these
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tantek pulls out his physical notebook again and dusts it off.
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rickardg aaronpk: that's probably it, I only added the link yesterday. My site is www.grammaticus.se, it's very mych a work in progress so could also be misconfigurations on my part
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kevinmarks a series of nesting flexboxes where you decide which bits go across and down and when they shrink and when they wrap
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aaronpk man i gotta fix this this week. basically twitter login on indieauth.com is broken unless your site is https right now
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tantek having looked at these newspaper sites I'm reminded again just how much most of them are basically a "Doomsday Times" (especially if you look at their physical printed front pages above the fold)
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tantek I know there are just as many (if not more) awesome positive things happening at local and global levels. And I wonder if it is possible to produce a more positive balanced newspaper in that way.
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tantek I feel like this is an indieweb opportunity because maybe we could construct such a "Optimist Daily" type "newspaper" by aggregating positive posts from indieweb sites.
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tantek I realize that's fairly handwavy - but for the moment I'm figuring the concrete thing I can do is to try to report/blog more on positive things happening locally etc.
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tantek Does any of this analysis interest/resonate with anyone else?
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kevinmarks isn't that buzzfeed?
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kevinmarks much less doomsday there
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kylewm aw man I don't even think it's an optimist/pessimist thing, just sensationalism
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kylewm trending news today was that Taylor Swift was being sued for some exorbitant amount of money over "Haters gonna hate"
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kylewm you know, that uncommon phrase that was first used by some other lyricist 2 years ago
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tantek suers gonna sue?
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kylewm clickbaiters gonna clickbait-bait-bait
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tantek kevinmarks, thanks for reminding about buzzfeed - I'll take a new look at it with that perspective to see how it feels
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tantek one of the things this "Optimist Daily" would be is very fast - since it wouldn't load so much from crappy js - and instead assemble summary pages on the server
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[aaronpk] I like the name :-)
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[aaronpk] How would things get added to it?
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[aaronpk] I've never seen sentiment analysis that works well enough for that
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[aaronpk] Sounds almost like making a newspaper layout for IndieNews!
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[zero-gravitas] makes me think of the old Tputh site
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[zero-gravitas] http://mehallo.com/B/TPUTH.jpg
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tantek aaronpk - good question re: adding - thinking a combination of submissions (ala IndieNews) + curation. agreed re: sentiment analysis.
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tantek and yes a newspaper layout for IndieNews would be an excellent way of splitting that piece of it into its own building block and trying it with live data accordingly.
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is IndieNews?
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Loqi IndieNews is an indieweb news aggregator, similar to Hacker News, which only accepts submissions via webmention https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieNews
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tantek ^^^ is that still true? maybe needs an update re: using /bookmark posts?
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tantek aaronpk: also, would you consider allowing like posts as a way to submit articles to IndieNews? (given that a like is perhaps an even stronger expression of sentiment than a bookmark?)
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[aaronpk] I think that would make sense
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kevinmarks http://www.unmung.com/storycard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.indiewebcamp.com%2Fen
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[aaronpk] You'd still have to add a category link to IndieNews to submit it
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kevinmarks hm
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[aaronpk] Not sure if anyone tags their likes yet
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davidpeach hey y'all
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davidpeach kylewm : Flickr webmentions coming through. Many thanks!
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 256 karma
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tantek aaronpk - interesting - why would you need to category link to IndieNews?
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tantek are you worried about false positives of people submitting all "like" posts? ;)
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tantek (a like aggregator is not necessarily a bad thing either)
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tantek zero-gravitas - wow I have not seen that TPUTH header in a long time!
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[zero-gravitas] tantek: timeless
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tantek why does it not surprise me that CraigMod was behind it
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tantek http://bobulate.com/post/383960331/some-truth-about-tputh
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[aaronpk] You'd need some way to specify to publish the like on IndieNews . Could be syndication instead of category too
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[aaronpk] A "like" aggregator sounds like what belong.io is actually
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tantek aaronpk - what's the downside of being able to submit any like post (or bookmark for that matter) to IndieNews?
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@FemometerInc We’re letting you finally take control. http://www.femometer.com/ #OwnYourData #SomethingIsComing https://twitter.com/FemometerInc/status/662038886751666176/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/662038886751666176)
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[aaronpk] It's a question of what "submitting" involves
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tantek you could even distinguish them by bookmark only adding the article to IndieNews, and a like posting it *and* thumbs-upping it
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tantek submitting involves: the aformentioned form on indienews that accepts URLs to like/bookmark posts :)
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[aaronpk] But that means it's more like a silo
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tantek how? it's just an aggregator
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[aaronpk] Since the act of submitting it doesn't live anywhere except on IndieNews
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tantek heck you could *subscribe* to certain sources for likes/bookmarks too!
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tantek and consume PuSH updates
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tantek of like/bookmark posts
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tantek wondering how long TPUTH lasted - since their domain now just redirects to ia.net
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[aaronpk] What about signing in with IndieAuth and then submitting a URL to your like or bookmark?
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[aaronpk] I think I'm okay with that idea
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tantek that's a good way to test the waters for sure
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[aaronpk] (As an alternative to what exists currently)
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[aaronpk] (In addition I mean)
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tantek would you process all the h-entrys on a page that was submitted? e.g. could I submit my home page and have all my "recent" likes act as submissions/votes?
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[aaronpk] The whole subscribing to your whole "like" feed is fun too but that's a different project
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tantek right
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[aaronpk] No I still want IndieNews to be semi curated
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tantek a one-time prompting via form is a very good start
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[aaronpk] But I could see making something else that subscribes to a bunch of people's pages and consumes their likes
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[aaronpk] It would end up looking more like http://belong.io
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[aaronpk] Only vaguely topical
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tantek and indieweb /friendly
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kevinmarks so do my new-style tweet emoji fav's show up as webmentions via bridgy?
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snarfed kevinmarks: i assume so. they're just tweets right?
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snarfed you can check if you've emoji-faved any posse tweets by bridgy users
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kevinmarks so maybe not
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/662041840938422274 is an emoji fav of https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/662002025270349825
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@kevinmarks 🌟 https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/662002025270349825 (twitter.com/_/status/662041840938422274)
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kevinmarks but I don't think you poll for links to tweets?
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snarfed oh. your fave tweet reply doesn't @-mention benwerd, so it's not a reply, so bridgy won't see it
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed right
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snarfed feel free to +1 the quote tweet feature request: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/504
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snarfed heh you're already cced
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tantek is there a bridgy feature request for getting notified of /quotation posts of your tweets?
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kevinmarks but if it was a link to his original it would propagate
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snarfed tantek: ^^
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snarfed kevinmarks: yes
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tantek snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 160 karma
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tantek what is an emojeply?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "emojeply" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105y
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kevinmarks you just made that up
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kevinmarks it's reacji
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KartikPrabhu its an omji
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/slackhq/status/622138743294705664
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tantek An emojeply is a response to a post consisting of a single emoji character, either as a [[reply]] post, or as a [[quotation]] of the original. Example: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661802300407545856
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@SlackHQ @annasuits A+ reacji choices 👏🏆💗 (twitter.com/_/status/622138743294705664)
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@kevinmarks 🌟 https://twitter.com/t/status/659200761427980288 (twitter.com/_/status/661802300407545856)
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tantek reacji/reactji (sp?) is horribly unspellable/speakable
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kevinmarks so is emoji
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kevinmarks emoji fave
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tantek faveji
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tantek likeji
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tantek reacji sounds like a new fashionable js framework
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tantek Google Trends says: "Compare reacji reactji / Not enough search volume to show graphs. "
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aaronpk why does it need its own name? it's an emoji response
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/EmojiReaction
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tantek lol because that's too many chars
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aaronpk too many chars for what!
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gRegorLove too mny vwls
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gRegorLove mjrspns
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aaronpk ermagrd
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gRegorLove Haha
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gRegorLove What is emoji response?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "emoji response" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105z
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tantek in contrast: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=emojicon
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kevinmarks emojeply I parse as emo-jep-lee
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aaronpk cannot un-see
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aaronpk thanks kevin
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tantek yes was debating that vs. emojiply
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aaronpk how about reploji
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tantek asploji
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aaronpk while we're making up words
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kevinmarks problem is reply is irregular
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tantek aaronpk: you have something
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tantek replyji
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aaronpk reploji is easier to say
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tantek nah, reply-ji
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tantek easy to say-ji
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kevinmarks that works, as then you parse reply first
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tantek also replyji has more G results than reacji
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aaronpk srsly?
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tantek oops n.m. forget quotes
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tantek interesting the post introducing emoji reactions does not mention "reacji"
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tantek oh its in embedded image
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tantek http://41.media.tumblr.com/1cd5f634bcbabce737c98db9e7429153/tumblr_inline_nr6ivvQaPg1tqy3dn_500.png
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tantek in http://slackhq.com/post/123561085920/reactions
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tantek what is reacji
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reacji" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1060
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tantek A reacji is an emoji reaction, the use of a single emoji character in response to a post, introduced as a feature by [[Slack]][http://slackhq.com/post/123561085920/reactions].
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loqi.me created /reacji (+200) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-04/line/1446679777702 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek since Slack shipped the feature and quoted someone with the informal term, that's reasonable to adopt.
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[kevinmarks] http://emojitracker.com
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tantek kevinmarks: have you posted any indieweb reacjis or only on Twitter?
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aaronpk this should make that easier http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--xDHZqQoZ--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1503850717894519693.jpg
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[kevinmarks] http://emojitracker.com/details/1F31F
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[kevinmarks] On twitter atm, but I should do a bookmarklet for Known
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tantek what is a reacjweet?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reacjweet" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1061
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aaronpk what no
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aaronpk that's not a thing
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tantek A reacjweet is a reacji posted as a [[tweet]].
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loqi.me created /reacjweet (+71) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-04/line/1446680257757 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk oh god
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tantek oh look it must be HWC night :D
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gRegorLove reacjweet--
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Loqi reacjweet has -1 karma
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tantek clearly I better post about it then
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[kevinmarks] So known it's a knowji?
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aaronpk ooh i'll post a p3kji
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tantek there is no "reaction" aspect there
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tantek that's like posting a "yo"
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[kevinmarks] Hm, I can do it with webactions
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tantek what is a yo?
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Loqi Yo is an app for sending your contacts the text "Yo" https://indiewebcamp.com/Yo
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tantek.com edited /reacji (+652) "slack image, vote/frequency aspect, reacjweets" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks++ for correcting me on the prior term introduction/usage of /reacji
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Loqi kevinmarks has 180 karma
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gRegorLove What is emoji?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "emoji" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1062
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 39 karma
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bear gRegorLove++
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Loqi bear: __number5__ left you a message on 11/3 at 10:05pm: I'm using my blog https://brucewang.net with http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/ when I got the error. Just tested, it had been fixed http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-03/line/1446617117003
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Loqi gRegorLove has 40 karma
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tantek Twitter "quotations" always quote the entire tweet right?
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tantek what do they call the feature?
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aaronpk quoted tweet
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tantek what is a quoted tweet?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "quoted tweet" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1063
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tantek what is a quotweet?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "quotweet" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1064
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[kevinmarks] But it's under the reply
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[kevinmarks] Portmanteaumagehrd
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tantek what is emojitracker
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "emojitracker" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1065
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tantek emojitracker is js;dr
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loqi.me created /emojitracker (+48) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-04/line/1446680879310 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek seriously going to start doing that with new sites that are empty w/o js
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[kevinmarks] It has an api
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tantek they should use that to build a website!
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tantek what is EmojiWorks?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "EmojiWorks" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1066
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/willmanduffy/status/661976750100979712
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@willmanduffy lol @twitter can't change https://twitter.com/login?redirect_after_login=%2Ffavorites to https://twitter.com/likes because @likes is taken (twitter.com/_/status/661976750100979712)
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tantek EmojiWorks is a keyboard for quickly typing emoji by holding down a special "emoji" modifier key (optionally in combination with other modifiers) and simultaneously pressing one of usual keys on the keyboard. http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--xDHZqQoZ--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/1503850717894519693.jpg
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gRegorLove Haha https://twitter.com/sqaxomonophonen/status/661980223341256704
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loqi.me created /EmojiWorks (+356) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-04/line/1446680974840 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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@sqaxomonophonen @willmanduffy @FioraAeterna @twitter @likes they could always send the Vogon Constructor Fleet after him (twitter.com/_/status/661980223341256704)
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tantek.com edited /EmojiWorks (+57) "linky, see also" (view diff)
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davidpea.ch edited /jam (+58) "/* David Peach */" (view diff)
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