2015-11-17 UTC
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# 01:35 GWG I need to figure out automated data entry from parsing vs manual entry
# 01:37 GWG A link preview doesn't usually let you edit it
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# 01:39 gRegorLove When sharing a link in a status; not when putting a link in a comment. You can only remove it in the latter instance.
# 01:39 GWG But should a user interface tell you what do or let you do everything?
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# 01:40 gRegorLove With FB it fills in the link preview and then you can click the description to edit it.
# 01:41 gRegorLove And usually lets you click through possible representative images from the URL
# 01:42 GWG I wrote an interface to enter a URL for a like/reply/bookmark etc and it parses the link and adds metadata
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# 04:13 GWG tantek, I have need of your common sense approach
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# 04:48 kylewm snarfed: for person tagging stuff, bridgy does not fetch homepages to look for rel-mes yet does it?
# 05:04 snarfed it looks up usernames and domains in the datastore
# 05:05 snarfed honestly i can't say i plan to do rel-me lookup anytime soon
# 05:39 GWG I can never tell when people are here or 'here'.
# 05:39 kylewm snarfed: that is pretty fb specific though right? we shouldnt' have to look up inferred nicknames for any other silo
# 05:40 tantek kylewm: it's amazing. they even support keyless access to RSS feeds! crazy! ;)
# 05:44 snarfed kylewm: maybe API opennessis inversely correlated with product success
# 05:46 tantek player B is the one that the photo is of and gets person-tagged
# 05:47 kylewm snarfed: I mean, that's exactly what happens though right? create a developer friendly API when you need to attract users, then lock it down when you need to monetize
# 05:47 tantek B is notified that they were tagged in a photo
# 05:48 tantek snarfed: yes - Flickr added PuSH support for all those feeds
# 05:48 snarfed we've been making B the silo-only participant for testing w/facebook
# 05:48 tantek so presumably B was already subscribed to PuSH updates of the feed of photos they are tagged in
# 05:48 tantek thus "gets a notification" via PuSH / webhook callback that they were tagged in a photo
# 05:49 snarfed with the parts we currently have, it's definitely easiest to do with B as silo-only
# 05:49 snarfed no known implementations of person tag backfeed yet :P
# 05:53 snarfed is the july indieweb SWAT0 the first known instance to happen? apart from within a single silo, of course
# 05:55 tantek can't say "apart from within a single" anything and SWAT0 in the same sentence SWAT0 requires multiple implementations, people, sites
# 05:56 tantek snarfed - supposedly StatusNet and Cliqset got it working in late 2010, but no one was able to really verify it
# 05:57 tantek and the videos posted to youtube don't really show it working - but we presumed good faith at the time that the folks leading those projects got it
# 05:57 tantek july indieweb SWAT0 is the first time we got *three* implementations interoperating across *three* sites.
# 06:09 tantek right now my photo posting is being throttled by iOS9 wifi not working, thus stopping me from posting photos from my iPod :(
# 06:22 tantek struggling with considering good photo burst posting behavior
# 06:28 david.shanske.com created /Google_Photos (+545) "Created page with "Google Photos is a photo storage silo that incorporates machine learning tools to organize and categorize uploaded photos, as well as generate presentations called 'stories' base..."" (
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# 06:28 tantek I figure it's late at night PST, so fewer people will notice. The best time to burst post IMO.
# 06:30 GWG tantek: There is a Google Photos page.
# 06:30 GWG Needs improvement. However, I need sleep.
# 06:30 GWG Will have to collect the other part of the bargain tomorrow.
# 06:33 snarfed so following up on that post...we're looking for a volunteer to be player A in a more public silo SWAT0 demo at wed HWC!
# 06:34 snarfed you have to be able to post photos with person tags (manual is ok) and posse to facebook (via bridgy publish is ok)
# 06:44 tantek snarfed and support sending a salmention to player B
# 06:45 tantek C comments on A's photo, A has to then pass that comment notification along to B
# 06:45 snarfed silo-only B removes the need for a number of difficult features :P
# 06:45 snarfed we're kind of making up the silo-only rules as we go :P
# 06:46 snarfed in our end to end test, C POSSEd their comment to FB, which took care of notifying B
# 06:46 tantek I mean, a silo salmention could be done by propagating comments to silo copies...
# 06:46 tantek but I have a feeling that would be VERY WEIRD
# 06:46 snarfed sure. i'm just saying, we used the tools that actually exist today
# 06:46 snarfed and salmention POSSE/backfeed into silos don't exist yet :P
# 06:47 tantek since I think you can leave a comment on a photo via Flickr's API
# 06:47 tantek so if C chose to POSSE their comment on A, to the copy of A's post on Flickr, then ...
# 06:48 tantek wait - Flickr does not notify you if a phot you're tagged in gets a comment
# 06:51 tantek a-ha this is the manual step for now: 4b. Kyle POSSEs the comment to Facebook.
# 06:51 tantek since we can't do that with the API any more right?
# 06:51 tantek I wonder if it would be easier if A was indie web + POSSE to FB
# 06:52 tantek why not do that first and claim two site / two implementation silo SWAT0
# 06:52 tantek I feel like that alone is a worthy accomplishment
# 06:53 tantek because it proves that a single indieweb site can federate with FB
# 06:53 snarfed we've already done this one. we'll do it again with a fully automatic comment posse
# 06:53 snarfed existing POSSE + backfeed + facebook-atom already show full integration, right?
# 06:54 tantek I mean you could even start with noting that this all works easily if everyone is inside FB
# 06:54 tantek but the key of SWAT0 is to test federation across two or more sites
# 06:54 tantek still, really interested to see "fully automatic comment posse"
# 06:54 snarfed we'll plan to do it on wed at least one way, maybe more
# 06:55 tantek the overall narrative is that we have found a way for people to incrementally go indieweb without losing touch with their friends
# 06:55 tantek the first person that goes indieweb, can still do SWAT0 with their friends on FB
# 06:56 tantek having shown that that works, they convince a second person (of that three) to go indieweb, and then they can do 2 indieweb + 1 silo SWAT0
# 06:56 tantek the hope is that convinces the 3rd person, who then also goes indieweb which then gets us to the July 2015 accomplishment
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# 16:27 petermolnar greatest mysteries of indieweb: what does Loqi do when he(?) is not here?
# 16:45 tantek weird, and editing a FB photo post on their desktop web UI removes emojis from the description!
# 16:54 tantek too bad blaine focuses on what he doesn't believe in, rather than what he does
# 16:54 tantek not believing = inaction = you get nothing done
# 16:55 tantek believe in yourself = motivation = you get *something* done
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# 16:56 tantek again, he's negative reasoning, which, gets nothing done ;)
# 16:56 tantek right, negative reasoning often results in misinterpretation
# 16:57 tantek meanwhile we're figuring out cross-site person-tagging
# 17:00 aaronpk maybe this is the misleading sentence: "Build tools for yourself, not for all of your friends."
# 17:01 aaronpk it's more like "You should be the #1 user of software you build."
# 17:01 aaronpk it's fine to build things for your friends, but you'd better be using it too!
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# 17:12 tantek this most recent photo with a bunch of emoji in the caption display/presents better on my site than *either* Twitter or Facebook
# 17:16 kylewm tantek++ (reading back your reaction to blaine's tweets)
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# 17:47 Jeena Gothenburgers, scandinavians, and everyone else who wants to join, tomorrow we are at the Steampunk Bar in Gothenburg for the Homebrew Website Club if you want to join https://jeena.net/events/9
# 17:48 tantek totally misread that at first as Goth & burgers
# 17:49 Jeena We have many Goths and Burgers too in Gothenburg ;)
# 17:49 tantek Jeena, if you ever want to open a restaurant ^^^
# 17:49 tantek where it's all goth themed, the workers are goth-outfitted etc.
# 17:50 tantek there's lots of red in burger places already so this seems like not a big stretch
# 17:50 Loqi tantek meant to say: tbrb: how's Edinburgh?
# 17:50 tbrb Wet, haha. Just me right now, it's coursework season for most people around here, so lots of people busy with that
# 17:50 Jeena nice voxpelli! I am sorry that it takes so much time for me with the swat0 thing but yeah, I'm still working on it
# 17:51 voxpelli Jeena: I've been pretty occupied with work lately, so I'm not really there as well
# 17:52 Jeena yeah, voxpelli wanted me to do a swedish swat0 but it kind of takes its time
# 17:52 tantek Jeena: how close are you and which player role are you doing?
# 17:52 tantek same for you voxpelli which SWAT0 player role are you trying to achieve?
# 17:53 voxpelli tantek: A and B and I'm pretty much there – some push notifications, polish and people-tagging parsing might remain I think
# 17:55 Jeena but I really want to have salmentions working on my website
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# 18:30 bret i think kevinmarks_ uses S3 and maybe others
# 18:30 tantek we could instead link to all the pages for individual services and add there
# 18:39 tantek voxpelli: perhaps add the PuSH for Drupal to ^^^ ?
# 18:40 tantek mlncn: what do you think of PuSH for Drupal ?
# 18:40 voxpelli Will try to remember to do that once I reach a computer again. On my way home from HWC now
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# 19:14 tantek interesting that two photo posts in a row makes FB aggregate them into a "added to album" post on my profile
# 19:14 tantek I think I prefer the IG treatment of showing them in a stream
# 19:15 tantek perhaps there is a threshold beyond which it makes sense from a usability/UX perspective to cluster a series of photo posts like that in a home page stream
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# 19:17 aaronpk there is certainly a threshold, and it's the reason I don't want my whole flickr/camera roll stream to go to my website as a stream
# 19:18 tantek I'm going to keep posting photos until I "feel" that threshold personally
# 19:18 tantek and then think about what kind of aggregation makes sense (e.g. temporal, geographical, etc.)
# 19:18 Loqi tantek meant to say: and then think about what kind of clustering makes sense (e.g. temporal, geographical, etc.)
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# 19:20 tantek e.g. what's odd about FB's clustering is that it only clustered 2 out of my 3 recent sequential photo posts
# 19:30 GWG Tantek, I would like to collect now
# 19:32 GWG At IWC, I was demonstrating how I was parsing Microformats and populated fields in a reply/bookmark/etc
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# 19:42 GWG Based on feedback from someone else, I am wondering how to balance the automatic importing of data
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# 20:04 tantek GWG, auto-filling fields is definitely an interesting design problem!
# 20:06 GWG So, how do you balance convenience with control?
# 20:07 GWG I want to make it easy to like. Filling out dozens of fields raises the barrier, but sometimes the data is bad.
# 20:07 tantek the key is to keep track of which fields has the user edited
# 20:08 tantek if the user has changed a field, then do not auto-(re)fill it
# 20:12 GWG In this scenario, acegiak does not want certain fields added in. And I understand that totally
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# 20:13 GWG Trying to figure out the logic since my goal is make things easier
# 20:13 tantek rather than approach the design by "not want certain fields added" - do the opposite, ask her what fields she *does* want added
# 20:14 tantek (what I should have asked instead of "which fields")
# 20:14 GWG I intend to, just contemplating it in the interim.
# 20:14 GWG For example, does it vary by type?
# 20:14 tantek building up from something minimal / simple is much more effective than starting with a kitchen sink and trying to cut out
# 20:15 tantek assume not until you have a concrete specific use-case need for "vary by type"
# 20:15 GWG I started with everything manual and now I am automating the storing of data, which means I need to think about how to use it
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# 20:16 tantek did you document what you were manually doing?
# 20:17 GWG Good point. I did not,it only exists in my head.
# 20:17 tantek if you write down your manual steps, it will help clarify the requirements for automation
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# 20:38 tantek !tell snarfed,kylewm upon brainstorming and trying some mock text entering UIs, I'm now convinced that a UI aspect/field/affordance for adding/indicating person-tags *separate* from just typing into the content field is both *ok* and desirable.
# 20:38 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 20:38 tantek thus I will likely be publishing my person-tags *outside* my e-content
# 20:40 tantek and I am *ok* with "legacy" readers not seeing the person-tags. One more thing that is better on my site than downlevel RSS/Atom etc.
# 20:41 tantek Thus this should work exactly correctly for POSSEing person-tags to FB, and NOT having them duplicated inside the content of the post
# 20:43 Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message on 11/17 at 12:38pm: upon brainstorming and trying some mock text entering UIs, I'm now convinced that a UI aspect/field/affordance for adding/indicating person-tags *separate* from just typing into the content field is both *ok* and desirable. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-17/line/1447792717587
# 20:43 tantek Now that being said, I also came up with some decent fallback behavior to suggest for Bridgy Publish POSSE person-tags to Twitter
# 20:43 tantek documenting now in a new github issue just for Twitter
# 20:44 tantek "fallback" as in does not require Twitter to support actual person-tags in their API
# 20:44 snarfed maybe i don't understand what you mean by fallback though
# 20:44 tantek snarfed, what is the usual thing for fallback?
# 20:44 snarfed i don't understand what that means in this context
# 20:47 snarfed ohh i'm guessing you mean injecting twitter person tags into the tweet text?
# 20:50 tantek since twitter API lacks twitter person tags support (for now)
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# 20:57 tantek wow this might be the first feature for which I'm brainstorming both/separate Plain text authoring and plain text "presentation"!
# 21:00 tantek someone want to stub that so it's googleable in the future?
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# 21:09 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 21:10 tantek hmm - are there example.com equivalents of twitter names?
# 21:10 tantek to use in examples that don't actually link to anyone?
# 21:10 tantek but exist as accounts that people can't take etc.?
# 21:11 aaronpk usually things like @auth @admin @twitter @login are reserved
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# 21:13 tantek 😂😂😂 kudos to whoever setup @exampleorg. Genius.
# 21:13 tantek "Arts Organization" because of course it's an "art" project.
# 21:17 aaronpk oh yeah you could use a name that is longer than the twitter length limit
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# 21:21 kylewm is a person tag fundamentally different from any other u-category that points to an external url?
# 21:21 Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message on 11/17 at 12:38pm: upon brainstorming and trying some mock text entering UIs, I'm now convinced that a UI aspect/field/affordance for adding/indicating person-tags *separate* from just typing into the content field is both *ok* and desirable. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-17/line/1447792717587
# 21:22 tantek especially in practice in both presentation and UI for entering them
# 21:22 Loqi tantek meant to say: especially in practice in both presentation and UI for entering&editing them
# 21:22 tantek oh sorry I stopped reading at "that points to an external url"
# 21:23 tantek that's a longer philosophical question - we'll get to it later
# 21:23 kylewm there's a disconnect in the bridgy implemetnation, where it checks that the tag is of a "person"
# 21:24 tantek but if you want to think about a concrete specific example for now, FB has a notion of a "location tag" which is also effectively a URL
# 21:24 kylewm literally, activityStreams objectType="person"
# 21:24 kylewm which in practice means you have to person tag with "*-category h-card"
# 21:24 tantek which we *could* distinguish with class="u-catgory h-card" vs class="u-category h-adr" or class="u-category h-geo"
# 21:25 kylewm but why can't I just say #<a href="https://tantek.com" class="u-category">tantek.com</a>
# 21:25 tantek you should person tag with "*-category h-card" however lacking the h-card we should presume person tag since that's the overwhelming biggest use-case by frequency etc.
# 21:26 tantek we can instead require all other URL tags to use an object
# 21:26 tantek the user is simply reading (e.g. on tv, billboards, ads) a word or phrase
# 21:26 tantek whereas person-tags have UI that *makes* you choose a specific profile (URL)
# 21:26 kylewm so say on a post, I have category=["hwc","https://tantek.com"] the onus is on me to figure out which of those are urls and treat the urls as people?
# 21:27 tantek isURL is pretty easy - that's what the regex is for in cassis :)
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# 21:30 aaronpk you don't need to cache them if your only goal is to get rid of the insecure content warning
# 21:32 ben_thatmustbeme so when people change their image, it changes across all. just not sure how i decide that its "changed" when they have images in twitter and their site that are different
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# 21:37 tantek huh - not last time I checked. I wonder when they expect to deploy that
# 21:37 tantek or how much "baked in" JS in Chrome that assertion depends on
# 21:38 kevinmarks_ "One of our major rules was that all our pages needed to be both server-side and client-side rendered. "
# 21:41 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 21:49 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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# 21:54 tantek kylewm: I like it. People first and by default. Everything else second and explicit.
# 21:56 kylewm tantek: thanks, i like it too. should it also support schemeless urls?
# 21:57 kylewm or rely on microformats parsers to figure that out
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# 21:57 kylewm so #<span class="p-category">tantek.com</span> would not work
# 21:57 tantek I think schemeless -> withscheme URL conversion should be done in the editing and/or auto-linking publishing code
# 21:58 kylewm adding person tags to redwind is at the top of my itches now!
# 21:58 tantek awesome! it's a person-tag race for this week!
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# 22:05 aaronpk aw man I feel so out of this race since i'm still playing catch-up
# 22:05 tantek what?!? you built person-tag support into ownyourgram!
# 22:06 tantek making it possible to post person-tags not just on your site, but on any micropub-supporting site that added that support to their endpoint.
# 22:06 tantek not accidentally at all! we totally brainstormed it as a deliberate act!
# 22:07 tantek are you doing a "what have you done for me lately?" to yourself?!?
# 22:07 aaronpk i sure hope it's worth it in the end. rebuilding things from scratch is rarely worth it.
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# 22:28 werd.io created /services (+1008) "Created page with "{{stub}}
A number of services exist to support the indie web community and the individuals and organizations that comprise it. == Hosted Services == === Syndication === * [[B..."" (
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# 22:32 tantek of course after all that default to person-tagging discussion for u-category URLs I have a photo I'm about to post with an org and am feeling pretty darn mixed about *-tagging it
# 22:33 tantek or do we just give up and say orgs are just a special case of person, like the supreme court has?
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# 22:35 benwerd I actually got that tip-off from kevinmarks - but it was semi-confirmed by the university I was visiting this weekend (which doesn't use it)
# 22:37 tantek can you confirm you are available to present tomorrow at HWC SF?
# 22:37 tantek I remember you saying you had stuff you wanted to show
# 22:40 tantek I'll likely do so once I have confirmed I have person-tag posting and POSSE working
# 22:40 tantek kind of expecting it to surprise the heck out of my FB-only friends who are going to get tagged.
# 22:44 tantek oh boy I highly suspect a Silo SWAT0 demo is coming up
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