#indiewebcamp 2015-11-30

2015-11-30 UTC
snarfed and halorgium joined the channel
#
snarfed tantek: rhiaro: indie ticketing/limited space events should be straightforward, right?
#
Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 37 minutes ago: Go get your IndieWebCamp SF ticket from Eventbrite! http://indiewebcamp.eventbrite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448832412033
#
snarfed one site hosts the canonical h-event, sets the capacity, and renders "seats remaining" etc based on its current number of yes rsvps
#
snarfed and serializes accepting rsvps, and rejects them when yes rsvp count == capacity
#
gRegorLove Woo, successfully sent webmention with vouch to aaronpk. Need to test with a vouch that isn't his own domain, though. http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/p3k
#
snarfed we'd have to define "reject," but 403 + friendly message is probably good enough
#
snarfed gRegorLove++
#
Loqi gRegorLove has 43 karma
#
aaronpk gRegorLove: nice! try with a wiki page like irc-people
#
gRegorLove Aw man, messed up my perfect karma :)
#
aaronpk snarfed: interesting question, I don't think that the webmention itself should be rejected when an event is full though
#
gRegorLove aaronpk: My comment's showing up twice there. Don't think I double-sent though.
#
snarfed aaronpk: i'm not sure. it seems reasonable in this specific case
#
snarfed open to other ideas though
#
aaronpk gRegorLove: oops weird, did you send one with https source and one with http?
#
aaronpk snarfed: it just feels like that's adding too much additional logic to webmention
#
gRegorLove Doesn't look like it, no.
#
snarfed aaronpk: i definitely get the concern. it's more like business logic on top of webmention though, right?
#
snarfed or does it violate the actual protocol
#
aaronpk gRegorLove: check again ;) http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/3mdkvC7P http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/1Q8cYgj5
#
aaronpk snarfed: well for one thing it would require sync processing of the webmention
#
aaronpk which is not something I particularly want to do on a system I'm building
#
snarfed aaronpk: true
#
snarfed eh actually not really, i think they're orthogonal
#
gRegorLove Oh weird. Probably related to my domain still serving both http and https. Need to work on that.
#
snarfed 202 wm response doesn't mean success, so you'd treat rejects like any other failure
#
aaronpk well you can't just reject all webmentions once the vent is full
#
aaronpk cause you might still want to show other mentions of the event that aren't RSVPs
#
KartikPrabhu reject only RSVP=yes ?
#
snarfed sure. i think i said reject yes rsvps :P
#
aaronpk KartikPrabhu: right which is why i'm saying it requires sync processing of the webmention
#
KartikPrabhu hmm possibly
#
snarfed aaronpk: i don't believe so, see above
#
aaronpk you can't know it's rsvp=yes without parsing the page
#
snarfed for async you'd respond 202 and show the failure on the status page, like with any other failure
#
KartikPrabhu then how does the person who rsvp-ed know that their rsvp was rejected due to filled event?
#
aaronpk ah hmm
#
aaronpk i guess the question is this: is "reject rsvp" the same as "reject webmention"
#
aaronpk technically the webmention is still valid even if the rsvp will be rejected, since the source does in fact link to target
#
KartikPrabhu shouldn't sepculate since he has neither events nor async webmention
#
aaronpk snarfed: but I see your point about not requiring sync processing
#
snarfed so the wm protocol specifically requires you to "accept" if the target links back? or is there room for biz logic?
#
kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+978) "/* Itches */ lotsa itches" (view diff)
#
snarfed i guess we could define reject in this case as 203 (Non-Authoritative Information) or 304 (Not Modified) or something similar that we'd abuse
#
snarfed anything unusual and noticeable, and then include a message
#
snarfed
#
aaronpk right now the webmention spec doesn't even require that you go fetch the source
#
aaronpk this definitely seems like it's worth considering further
#
snarfed.org edited /event (+762) "/* How to */ indie ticketing/capacity" (view diff)
#
bear you can accept a webmention and then not display it for "business reasons"
#
snarfed i just re-read the spec, and it's pretty loose. i interpret it as allowing 4xx responses in cases like these
#
bear the entity sending the webmention would never know (and shouldn't need to know)
#
snarfed bear: yeah, but in this case you want them to know. this is https://indiewebcamp.com/event#How_to_limit_capacity
#
aaronpk bear: that makes sense, except in this case you do actually want them to know the event is full
#
bear you would need a callback url to allow for the "business rules" to respond to the sending entity - "yes"
#
aaronpk callback url is just a different way of returning the webmention status
#
bear so I would respond with 202-check-later
#
snarfed https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#verification says you have to fetch target (at some point) and check for a backlink. it doesn't say you can't fail for other reasons though
#
aaronpk this is http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention-brainstorming#Asynchronous_status_polling vs http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention-brainstorming#Asynchronous_status_notification
uranther joined the channel
#
snarfed.org edited /event (+123) "/* How to limit capacity */ compliance" (view diff)
#
bear aaronpk - I do like status polling for these things
#
aaronpk i'm not usually a fan of polling but in cases like this it ends up being easier for everyone
#
snarfed maybe yeah
#
snarfed i think the rsvp/capacity straw man design is still independent of sync/async and status polling/notif, but good to think through
#
aaronpk yeah it totally is unrelated to those issues
#
gregorlove.com edited /Vouch (+789) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
#
bear I wonder if we can advertise the notification capabilities along with the webmention rel info?
#
aaronpk why?
#
bear so my library would know if I need to poll for status
#
aaronpk you'll know if you need to poll for status if the webmention endpoint returns a status url
ramsey joined the channel
#
bear hmm, then I need to setup a webmention endpoint that does that to test my library against
#
aaronpk speaking of which, I need to add status pages for webmention.io
bigbluehat_ and Leeky joined the channel
#
aaronpk apparently this is not the first time i've thought of that https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/37
tantek and pl_ joined the channel
#
tantek snarfed, well in this case, with eventbrite, it switches over to a waitlist
jonnybarnes, ramsey, tantek, myfreeweb, wavis, neanias and halorgium joined the channel
#
snarfed.org edited /event (+196) "/* How to limit capacity */" (view diff)
Guerillero|BNC, wavis, uranther, bigbluehat__, tommorris, jonnybarnes, Phae and ramsey joined the channel
#
aaronpk well that was a rabbit hole
#
aaronpk just popped up a couple levels of the stack to start what he originally planned to start at 2pm
jonnybarnes, sparverius, ramsey, bengo and Leeky joined the channel
#
GWG aaronpk: If it helps inspire you, when I start a new project, I often ask myself Has aaronpk done it already?
bret and davidized joined the channel
#
aaronpk GWG: hehe. well even if I have, don't let that stop you!
#
GWG aaronpk: It doesn't. I just thought you'd find it inspiring as you do further work.
#
GWG If I'm looking for design inspiration, I usually check you and kylewm first to see if I get any ideas.
#
GWG After that, tantek.
#
GWG After him, silos.
#
GWG aaronpk: If I only used what you did, I'd be writing a new webmentions plugin for WordPress that used webmention.io
#
GWG I'd be changing my geolocation to use your API.
#
GWG Etc.
minsky joined the channel
#
aaronpk well tonight's project is apparently sprucing up webmention.io a little more, and writing tests
#
aaronpk since I no longer have webmention handling in my new site
tommorris_ and ramsey joined the channel
#
GWG aaronpk: Someday, I may outsource some problems to your services, but I haven't yet.
#
GWG I want the challenge of trying to do some things myself
#
GWG Except what Bridgy does.
#
Loqi gives GWG the challenge of trying to do some things myself
#
GWG gives Loqi what Loqi wants most
#
Loqi grins profusely
#
GWG I feel a Pinocchio reference coming on
tommorris_, uranther, jonnybarnes, wavis_, bigbluehat__ and Leeky joined the channel
#
GWG aaronpk: I was tempted to use webmention.io when you mentioned it would cache profile images. That is on my long term list.
bigbluehat__, wavis, tommorris_, uranther_, Leeky, jonnybarnes, ramsey, cjk101010, wavis_, benward and halorgium joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme hey gRegorLove, sorry, i was not
#
Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 37 minutes ago: could you double-check the RSVPs for the FB event for indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT and add the late RSVPs to the /2015/MIT/Guest_List? E.g. I know at least Yan was a late addition. Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448825684079
wavis_, cjk101010, benward_, MrClaw, tommorris__ and wavis joined the channel
#
aaronpk does bridgy include the canonical URL of a post if that person is a bridgy user?
#
aaronpk as in, for one of my tweet replies which doesn't link back to my post, would bridgy's permalink for it include my aaronparecki.com URL for the post?
#
aaronpk the answer is yes
bengo, halorgium, jonnybarnes, wavis and bigbluehat__ joined the channel
#
aaronpk oh man, I just realized webmention.io isn't storing the multiple URLs that bridgy includes in the pages, only the first one
#
aaronpk punting on that for now, but that will make it so that I can de-dupe mentions
#
bengo webmention.net has moved?
#
Loqi bengo: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 55 minutes ago: now that you have bengo.is working again, sign-in to IndieWebCamp.com and add yourself to the IWC SF guest list! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF/Guest_List http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448827030471
#
Loqi bengo: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 25 minutes ago: Go get your IndieWebCamp SF ticket from Eventbrite! http://indiewebcamp.eventbrite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448832412033
#
bengo since a few days ago?
#
bengo ssl cert error and now redirects to indiewebcamp.com
#
bengo I thoguht that URL was canonical spec? https://github.com/w3c-social/webmention/blame/master/README.md#L5
#
bengo aaronpk fyi
neanias joined the channel
#
aaronpk uh, i never set up https on it.
#
aaronpk did something link to https?
#
aaronpk can't get a cert error on an http page ;)
#
bear bengo - for me webmention.net links to W3C's Editor draft page
#
bengo woah
#
bengo I must have typod. Sorry
myfreeweb joined the channel
#
bear no worries :)
#
aaronpk np. I might as well set up https on it anyway.
#
bear https all teh nets
#
bengo Needed to consult the spec, but I just looked at the indiewebcamp wiki page
#
aaronpk webmention.net is actually the same as the wiki page :)
#
bengo nice
#
aaronpk it just slaps the w3c stylesheet on the wiki html
#
bengo It would appear that webmention requires each page on my domain to have the link header or link element.
benward__ joined the channel
#
bengo While I plan on improving this soon, I currently don't have a 'base template' that wraps all my pages
#
aaronpk each page that you want to enable webmentions for yes
Guerillero|BNC joined the channel
#
bengo it's more or less a static site
#
bengo Which makes it difficult to comply without copypasta
#
bengo Now, it doesn't really block me
#
aaronpk the "currently dont have a base template" case is why the http header is supported too, so that you could return the header at the web server level
#
bengo but lots of folks jekyll on s3 or github.io
#
bengo And in that case they'can't link header
bigbluehat__ joined the channel
#
bear my site is all static and I just run jinja2 across my file structure
#
aaronpk jekyll supports templates so it's pretty trivial to include the link tag in that
#
bengo How do you feel about having a last layer of webmention discovery in the well-known URI registry https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5785
#
aaronpk but yes if your site is literally a pile of html you'd need to update the html for each page
#
aaronpk what is well-known?
#
Loqi Well-known refers to designating a common URL on domains for data to be easily located https://indiewebcamp.com/well-known
#
bengo webfinger and openid connect use it, which is where I've seen it.
#
aaronpk that's actually the first good reason I've heard for using .well-known
#
bear i'm curious how you do any header updates then if you have all .html files
ramsey, Leeky and jonnybarnes joined the channel
#
bengo Though tbh, that may not be necessary. A domain with that constraint could just put a static /.well-known/webfinger document that always responds with { "links": [{ "rel": "webfinger", "href": "webmention.io/whatever" }] }
myfreeweb joined the channel
#
bengo Webmention clients that want to support the use case could reasonably try to find the webmention link relation via webfinger
#
bengo "Find links from specific resource on domain" is basically what webfinger is for anyway
ramsey, Leeky, jonnybarnes, tommorris__, zz_tridnguyen, uranther, myfreeweb, bigbluehat__, wavis, halorgium, dhalgren and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
bengo I did that for illustration, and because now I can say I have a (naive) webfinger endpoint http://bengo.is/.well-known/webfinger
#
bengo For the case where I'm just going to delegate all webmentions to another service, It's also nice to save the bandwidth of link headers on all requests, and just specify in well-known.
#
bengo Related question: Is it valid for me to only respond with that header on HEAD requests?
jonnybarnes joined the channel
#
bengo Ofc also did the header bit
#
bengo âš¡ curl "http://bengo.is" -o /dev/null -s -D - | grep webmention
#
bengo Link: <https://webmention.io/bengo.is/webmention>; rel="webmention"
wavis joined the channel
#
bengo https://github.com/gobengo/bengo-web/commit/bd95413bd36ca05fb5e3cf29de1c8cad43bf598d
jonnybarnes, Leeky, wavis, tommorris__, myfreeweb, Phae, uranther, KartikPrabhu, Guerillero|BNC, bigbluehat__ and halorgium joined the channel
#
Loqi [indienews] New post: https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb
jonnybarnes, KartikPrabhu, ramsey, loic_m, bret and myfreeweb joined the channel
#
Loqi [bridgy] John Rogerson replied '@kylewmahan but would sure like to come by the homebrew club again some time. i'm working in SF just now so a bit easier for me to be there.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF (https://twitter.com/iboxifoo/status/671238533877768192)
#
Loqi [bridgy] John Rogerson replied '@kylewmahan thanks for the heads up man. out of the loop somewhat. didn't plan for it. got a couple of things that day too. damn. enjoy.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF (https://twitter.com/iboxifoo/status/671238317233594368)
jonnybarnes, Leeky, ehlovader and tantek joined the channel
#
@muhhbot Die ganzen IndieWeb Plugins für Wordpress reizen mich ja nicht gedacht, dass das krasser als in Hanoi sein könnte. (twitter.com/_/status/671243038392471552)
zz_tridnguyen and jonnybarnes joined the channel
#
tantek !tell snarfed great post re: keep Bridgy Publish simple. Makes a lot of sense and thanks for putting up with all the feature requests in github issues!
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
bengo, myfreeweb, friedcell, benward_, tommorris__, uranther, bigbluehat__, ramsey, bret, Leeky, minsky, jonnybarnes, acegiak, halorgium, j12t, KartikPrabhu, kerozene, tommorris, loic_m and Phae joined the channel
#
@HNSGR #ownyourdata - own the interface (twitter.com/_/status/671262982698049536)
cweiske, myfreeweb, jonnybarnes, dhalgren`, wavis, ehlovader, ramsey_, Leeky, wolftune, benward_ and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] I thought it was another movie plot threat X-men Origins
#
[kevinmarks] Can't you send them back a webmention saying whether they are in or wait listed?
#
[kevinmarks] If you're not processing synchrously that's what you need.
#
[kevinmarks] I suppose it is an event ticket
#
[kevinmarks] Or a place in the queue for paid ones?
#
Loqi [kevinmarks]: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 33 minutes ago: Go get your IndieWebCamp SF ticket from Eventbrite! http://indiewebcamp.eventbrite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448832412033
#
Loqi [kevinmarks]: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 33 minutes ago: Go get your IndieWebCamp SF ticket from Eventbrite! http://indiewebcamp.eventbrite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448832412033
neanias, Guerillero|BNC, j12t, bengo, loic_m, sammachin1 and nt0 joined the channel
#
petermolnar.eu edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+1312) "a little cleanup + a few new entries" (view diff)
#
petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress (+134) (view diff)
#
petermolnar !tell pfefferle could you please add me to https://github.com/IndieWebCamp-WordPress-Outreach-Club ?
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress_Outreach_Club (+18) "/* Members */" (view diff)
lewisnyman joined the channel
#
bengo.is edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+299) "bengo.is RSVPing" (view diff)
#
bengo.is edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+119) "/* Indie RSVPs */" (view diff)
friedcell, j12t, g3funk, zz_tridnguyen, loic_m, CaptainCalliope, z1, ramsey, tvn and adactio joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] Peter Molnar commented 'If it’s a paragraph, it’s a post. Medium-sized content gets short shrift these days. Don’t go long. One or two paragraphs count. Then press ...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (https://petermolnar.eu/re-short-form-blogging/)
j12t, ttepasse, CaptainCalliope, Guest56051 and g3funk joined the channel
#
rhiaro.co.uk edited /Webmention (+666) "/* Implementations */" (view diff)
myfreeweb and Phae joined the channel
#
@bblfish @almereyda the first step to knowledge is acknowledging one's ignorance. Anyway progress is being made https://github.com/w3c-social/webmention/issues/14 (twitter.com/_/status/671332041200410624)
ttepasse, Tino, kerozene, CaptainCalliope, limiting-factor and nitot joined the channel
#
tommorris kevinmarks: if you send a webmention to my endpoint, YOU BECOME A VAMPIRE. :P
snarfed, Guerillero|BNC, z1, ehlovader, g3funk, johnstorey, zz_tridnguyen, sanduhrs, friedcell, elima, singpolyma, tommorris, nitot, tantek, j12t and hs0ucy joined the channel
#
@sikkdays @jennifermontes I just started using @withknown, the IndieWebCamp solution we talked about on the podcast. http://www.savethis.space/ (twitter.com/_/status/671365245361717248)
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek good morning #indiewebcamp, all you wonderful real world implementers, builders, creators, and selfdogfooders.
singpolyma, shiflett, neanias, wolftune and cleverdevil joined the channel
#
kylewm oh wow, looks like 26 people have signed up for IWC via eventbrite
gRegorLove joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme nice
j12t, tantek and danlyke joined the channel
#
tantek !tell aaronpk,bret,dietrich did we (you) get anyone to host HWC PDX this week? 2015-12-02
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk I did not
#
tantek and bret said no for him too
#
tantek no word from dietrich
#
tantek assuming HWC PDX canceled this week then, unless we hear from dietrich
#
gRegorLove ben_thatmustbeme: When you get a chance, can you try sending a webmention with vouch to http://gregorlove.com/2015/11/testing-webmention-with-vouch-fingers/ ?
#
tantek did anyone hear from adactio about HWC Brighton this week?
#
tantek.com edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (+70) "/* Where */ PDX canceled this week, participate online!" (view diff)
yakker joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme gRegorLove: sure, though i have no idea what it will send exactly. I automated it all away :P
#
gRegorLove That's cool. It should accept if it's IWC, aaronpk, tantek, or snarfed.
#
ben_thatmustbeme it should have sent
#
ben_thatmustbeme actually, it may well have sent with a URL of yours
#
gRegorLove It did, yep.
#
gRegorLove And my code didn't accept it, so, bug to fix :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme would you like me to send one without that
#
dietrich tantek: pdxrust is in the office on weds :(
#
Loqi dietrich: tantek left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: are you around to host Portland Homebrew Website Club 2015-12-02? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-21/line/1448130704994
#
Loqi dietrich: tantek left you a message on 11/25 at 7:04pm: are you available to host HWC PDX on Wednesday? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-25/line/1448507068817
#
Loqi dietrich: tantek left you a message 8 minutes ago: did we (you) get anyone to host HWC PDX this week? 2015-12-02 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-30/line/1448905267106
#
gRegorLove ben_thatmustbeme: Yeah, if you could send one with indiewebcamp.com/irc-people that would be great
#
tantek dietrich: does anyone in PDX rust have their own website and hopefully post content on it?
#
aaronpk gRegorLove: can't you just do that for him?
#
tantek perhaps bring that up!
#
tantek challenge PDX Rust people to see who will be the first to setup a personal website running Rust as the backend and publish content on it
#
tantek throw down
#
tantek if your language is so awesome, can you publish on the web with it?
#
gRegorLove Oh yeah. nevermind, ben_thatmustbeme :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme heh
#
ben_thatmustbeme i wasn't going to say it, but now you have a specific page to test with
#
ben_thatmustbeme and i can probably come up with a list of vouches that will probably look good
#
dietrich tantek: hm, i do not know
#
tantek dietrich: go to PDX Rust and ask!
#
dietrich tantek: maybe ask qedunham?
#
tantek throwdown the challenge
#
tantek what good is your programming language if you can't build / run a webserver with it? ;)
#
dietrich tantek: points for enthusiasm, but no i'm not hijacking their meetup ;)
#
tantek dietrich: don't hijack, just ask during Q&A
#
tantek politely of course
#
tantek like this
#
tantek Is there a Rust HTTP server I can install on my server?
#
tantek Is anyone here running it?
#
tantek Live on the web?
#
tantek What's the URL?
#
tantek you get the idea
j12t and mlncn joined the channel
#
tantek hey did we fill up for IWC SF?
limiting-factor joined the channel
#
gRegorLove Yeah, I forget how simple webmention is sometimes, that I can just cURL it myself. :) It worked! Thanks, ben_thatmustbeme
#
tantek bengo++ for implementing /RSVP posts!
#
Loqi bengo has 9 karma
#
tantek.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (-277) "/* Participants */ update counts, bengo only counts once" (view diff)
funwhilelost joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com edited /Vouch (+148) "/* gRegor Morrill */ received URLs" (view diff)
#
tantek !tell kylewm can you check the IWC SF Eventbrite admin and add attendees from there to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF/Guest_List#RSVPs_from_Other_Sites perhaps in a block *before* the Facebook RSVPs? (I want to believe the Eventbrite RSVPs more than the FB "Going" RSVPs). Thanks!
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
wolftune, sammachin, sensiblemn, Kongaloosh and johnstorey joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+2041) "/* RSVPs from Other Sites */ add in a bunch of Eventbrite RSVPs" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (-317) "/* RSVPs from Facebook */ moving Darius to Eventbrite section" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+316) "/* RSVPs from Eventbrite */" (view diff)
#
@jkphl Personal @nueww 2016 organizer schedule: 04/10 http://coderdojo-nbg.org 04/12 http://a11y.club 04/16-17 http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg Phew (twitter.com/_/status/671399948420849665)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Jens Grochtdreis replied '@jkphl und jetzt in vernünftiger Datums-Konfiguration, nicht diesem US-Quatsch :-)' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/Flocke/status/671400217615446016)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Joschi Kuphal 吉 replied '@Flocke Das kommt dann doch auf @webkrauts, hab ich gedacht! ;)' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/671400486164144128)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Jens Grochtdreis replied '@jkphl wenn Du die Termine eingibst, kommen sie auf alle Fälle bei den @webkrauts' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/Flocke/status/671400682390466560)
#
Loqi [bridgy] Joschi Kuphal 吉 replied '@Flocke Damit rechne ich fest. :) (und dann in vernünftig formatiert) +@webkrauts' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/671400894207041537)
#
@benwerd Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671406100575485952)
#
@danlyke RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671406553359097856)
#
@BrightContrasts RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671407770348990464)
#
@davidmead RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671408465781366784)
#
@jzb RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671409402050686976)
Loqi joined the channel
#
@shldrngdwrvs RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671410787605442561)
#
GWG Monday, everyone
#
kevinmarks or loqi could count how many people are in indiewebcamp, and if it falls below a threshold, assume it's been split from
aspec joined the channel
#
GWG KevinMarks, still working on svg at your suggestion
#
kevinmarks how's it going?
#
upon2020.com edited /User:Upon2020.com (-12) "/* Projects related to the indie web */" (view diff)
#
upon2020.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+316) "added Johannes Ernst" (view diff)
#
upon2020.com edited /User:Upon2020.com (-117) "updated" (view diff)
yakker joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com edited /weight (+720) "add example" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+523) "clarifications" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub () "(-893) move weight example to [[weight]]" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com created /micropub-clients (+361) "move request from [[Micropub]]" (view diff)
#
voxpelli aaronpk: to simplify webmention implementation, could resolving target redirects perhaps be optional? so unless a site uses shortlinks itself it can skip resolving targets?
#
aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (-251) "move request to [[micropub-clients]]" (view diff)
tantek joined the channel
#
voxpelli hasn't really resolve targets in his endpoint and might perhaps still not be doing it
#
aaronpk voxpelli: I think that's reasonable. Trying to think of the cases where I am resolving redirects right now.
#
voxpelli aaronpk: the webmention client has probably already resolved the redirect when looking up the endpoint :P so shouldn't really ever be necessary
#
aaronpk well that normally happens transparently by the http client
#
voxpelli well, never mind, of course it's necessary because one still needs to know what url to check for in the source
#
voxpelli one could wish for indieweb sites to never actually link to shortlinks in actual code but just accept shortlinks in the UI:s :P
#
aaronpk even if you don't have shortlinks for your own posts, you might change your URL structure at some point and have a bunch of URLs change
#
aaronpk and you'd still want to be able to accept webmentions for the old URLs
#
aaronpk assuming you're sending redirects for those, following your own redirects is a perfectly sane way of doing that
#
voxpelli I think the matching between a target URL and an actual entity within ones system should be entirely up to the implementation then, one probably wouldn't follow HTTP redirects to solve that case
#
aaronpk (I certainly do, because it's easier than any other way)
#
aaronpk but yes it is implementation specific
snarfed joined the channel
#
snarfed voxpelli aaronpk: agreed, whether/how to resolve wm target URLs is implementation specific, optional, and probably outside the spec...but there are definitely use cases for fetching and following HTTP redirects
#
Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 11 hours, 59 minutes ago: great post re: keep Bridgy Publish simple. Makes a lot of sense and thanks for putting up with all the feature requests in github issues! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-30/line/1448871833483
#
snarfed the obvious one is shortlinks you didn't create yourself - t.co, dlvr.it, etc
#
aaronpk i guess the question is if resolving your own URLs is implementation specific, is there actually any reason to require a WM receiver to follow redirects of a target?
#
aaronpk also note that it's only in the "protocol summary" where it mentions following redirects, the actual spec content doesn't mention that at all
#
voxpelli it adds unneeded complexity and is not something to be encouraged
#
bear most http get libraries won't even give you the redirect tree unless you ask for it - so doing a GET will just resolve any redirects
#
aaronpk this is for target, which the receiver isn't actually fetching
fourtonfish joined the channel
#
bear ah - right - sorry
#
bear for the target it's solidly in the "meh" category
#
bear if I want to care I will have a map
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+299) "/* RSVPs from Facebook */" (view diff)
#
voxpelli aaronpk: as the receiver should validate whether the receiving URL is acceptable, one can easily show an error if it fails (+ would be hard to actually give such an error synchronously if one follows redirects)
#
voxpelli saw your comment now, lets leave it at that :)
#
kylewm.com edited /Template:Attendee (+71) "add indie RSVP placeholder" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /Template:Attendee/Doc (+13) "/* Blank Template */" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /Template:Attendee (+8) (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /Template:Attendee/Doc (+50) "/* Parameters */ add rsvp_url" (view diff)
#
@thierrymarianne RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671429406838104064)
#
snarfed voxpelli aaronpk: again, one clear use case for receivers following target redirects is when it's a shortlink someone else created, e.g. a t.co link
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+301) "/* Participants */ re-merge Indie+wiki RSVPs and include rsvp_url in the attendee block; alpha-sort; update counts" (view diff)
#
voxpelli snarfed: yeah, but should be left to implementer to decide whether it wants to support receiving such mentions or not
#
aaronpk snarfed: do you accept those kind of target mentions?
#
kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+20) "/* RSVPs */ linkify my name" (view diff)
#
voxpelli (redirects are kind of a rabbit hole as well, if one wants to support redirects on eg. GitHub Pages one has to support meta-refresh – eg. Google does, but then you need to parse HTML as well :P )
#
aaronpk I don't think people should be required/expected to accept t.co mentions. If someone is sending a webmention to a link they found via t.co, they can resolve the redirect themselves and send you the real target.
#
voxpelli aaronpk: Twitter ToS might stop them :P
#
voxpelli but it should anyhow be up to receiver to decide if they want to accept a certain kind of mentions or not
#
ben_thatmustbeme t.co mentions make a lot of sense to follow, if twitter every starts to federate
#
ben_thatmustbeme s/every/ever/
#
Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: t.co mentions make a lot of sense to follow, if twitter ever starts to federate
#
aaronpk okay let's start with this: who here follows redirects of a target before deciding whether to consider accepting the mention?
#
ben_thatmustbeme same issue for any service really. they may want to wrap outgoing URls for some reason or another
#
ben_thatmustbeme raises his hand
#
aaronpk does too
#
ben_thatmustbeme isn't that in one of the php libraries?
#
ben_thatmustbeme can't remember
#
aaronpk not sure, it's in my source code directly tho
#
ben_thatmustbeme indieweb php libs i mean
#
voxpelli such URL:s are very much a silo thing though, how many people actually wrap their URL:s?
#
bear huh, in my webmention code I don't follow target redirects and will reject it if the domain doesn't match
#
kylewm follows 1 redirect
#
Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 42 minutes ago: can you check the IWC SF Eventbrite admin and add attendees from there to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF/Guest_List#RSVPs_from_Other_Sites perhaps in a block *before* the Facebook RSVPs? (I want to believe the Eventbrite RSVPs more than the FB "Going" RSVPs). Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-30/line/1448906968158
#
voxpelli +1 on bear, I will also reject of domain doesn't match a registered domain in my endpoint and I don't think I follow redirects (might have changed as part of my Salmention implementation as I then need to look up the target anyhow though)
bengo joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme i have shortlinks they could be mentioning, plus my internal redirects are messy, easier to follow exactly where something pionts than try to deal with recalculating exactly what it point to
#
kylewm ^ that's why for me too
#
voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: your shortlinks are on your own domain right? not eg. bitly?
#
bear yea, my story may change if I ever implement short links, but then that would require me to put the short link domain in the whitelist
#
aaronpk same for me, a side effect is that it means I also follow t.co and bit.ly etc
#
ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: true
#
aaronpk I'm now considering whitelisting my domain and my short domain
#
aaronpk webmention.io also follows redirects, and it leads to a lot of noise in the database. Now that you can register domains with it (to set up callback URLs and such), I'm going to consider only accepting webmentions for registered targets
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think the idea is to look at what is actually done in social web right now, not just IWC, if you are drafting a spec, you have to consider that one of the largest silos does this, so its important to consider others might want to as well
#
voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: not just if they're doing it but also why they're doing it and how that may change etc
#
kylewm I feel like KartikPrabhu added t.co following because someone (Doug Schepers?) wanted to webmention him from twitter
#
voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: one possibility for Twitter would be to onclude the webmentioned links as link-tags or link-headers also btw
#
kylewm https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/marginalia-schepers
#
ben_thatmustbeme WHY they do it, is most interesting to me voxpelli, does anyone know the exact reason?
#
voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: or some other mechanism to show actual URL to servers but a warning to users
#
ben_thatmustbeme is it JUST to shorten?
#
aaronpk pretty sure it's so they can stop twitter worms from spreading
#
voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: to be able to stop phishing sites
#
voxpelli and similar
#
aaronpk they can kill a t.co link if they detect it's redirecting to a malicious site
#
voxpelli so they can stopped a linked to URL after the tweet has already been pushed to clients
#
voxpelli has to run
#
ben_thatmustbeme ah
#
bear i'll have to adjust my webmention library then to follow target URL redirects
#
ben_thatmustbeme than yeah, i will always follow all redirects
#
ben_thatmustbeme that seems like a valid use case to me
#
bear goes to file an issue against Ronkyuu lib
#
aaronpk interesting outcome
#
aaronpk follow-up question then, for everyone who is following target redirects, do you have a limit on the number of redirects you follow before giving up? (kylewm already said his limit is 1)
#
kylewm i don't have any reason for it to be 1, probably just laziness
#
bear I feel once you start following you should follow them all to be a good HTTP citizen
#
aaronpk there is no "all" since it may be an infinite redirect loop
#
kylewm snarfed++ bridgy pulling in mentions from twitter is so freaking cool
#
Loqi snarfed has 175 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme whatever the default for Curl is
#
ben_thatmustbeme thats my limit
#
bengo Did indieauth.io twitter break because they started wrapping your profile website link in t.co?
#
snarfed thanks snarfed!
#
bengo I just re-added to my twitter bio the other day, donno if mine just doesn't work because it's caching my old twitter info
#
bear I use the python requests library and it has a max redirect limit - not sure what it is, but that's why it's in place
#
snarfed re wm target redirects, i use the wordpress plugins blindly; i'm not sure what they do, but i expect they don't follow them...which is fine with me in practice.
#
ben_thatmustbeme huh, php curl has no limit set on max redirects
#
aaronpk bengo: no, it's more likely this https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/88
#
ben_thatmustbeme it does detect loops
#
snarfed (i just mentioned t.co etc links as an example of why you *might* want to follow them, not that everyone should or that it shoudl go in the spec)
#
bengo aaronpk: that sounds like it happens iff my site is www.bengo.is? which doesn't respond
#
ben_thatmustbeme i feel like if someone take the time to send you a webmention for a URL that is not on your domain its probably something that will redirect to you
#
bengo I guess one way of resolving my question is: Anyone indieauth with twitter recently?
#
ben_thatmustbeme or its just total spam
#
aaronpk bengo: ah huh, different issue then. and yes I just used twitter this morning.
#
bengo aaronpk: ok then I'll wait it out. Probably has my old lack of link cached
#
bengo thx
#
aaronpk you can click "re-scan"
#
bengo k
#
aaronpk if that doesn't work, let me know the specific error
#
bengo oh... works now. Was remembering from last night. Basically it just said it couldn't find the link on my twitter page. But it works now
#
ben_thatmustbeme wonders if he should put a limit to number of redirects he will follow or not
#
bengo didn't know about re-scan last night but glad it exists
#
bengo ben_thatmustbeme you at least want to have a high number like 20
#
aaronpk I was going to recommend whatever the browser default is
#
bengo and catch the error. Otherwise users will just wait for longtime and probably just get a blank page and 504 response from an intermediate proxy
#
Jeena My IndieWeb missionary work starts to bear fruits! http://www.savethis.space/2015/decentralizing-me
#
Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message on 11/25 at 7:02pm: are you hosting HWC Göteborg on https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-01-homebrew-website-club ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-25/line/1448506952544
#
Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message on 11/25 at 7:04pm: are you hosting HWC Göteborg on Wednesday I mean https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-25/line/1448507049603
#
Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message on 11/28 at 10:55am: Is there a HWC Göteborg this coming week? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-28/line/1448736949713
#
ben_thatmustbeme firefox is defaulted to 20
#
jeena.net edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (-11) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
#
bengo Had this queued up from when I was hacking last night but no one was on: I'm pretty curious to hear a little bit more about how indiewebers are storing their data. e.g. do you have all your tweets in a SQL database? Do you go fetch some external API (or several) every time someone requests a page on your site? Do you memcache? Are your posts stored in a database server or on the filesystem? Folks can post here about
#
bengo that, or maybe would make a good 15m open forum at iwcSF
#
ben_thatmustbeme most look to be 20
#
ben_thatmustbeme IE has 10
#
jeena.net edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (+12) "/* Göteborg */ jeena" (view diff)
#
aaronpk bengo: as you might imagine, there's a pretty wide range of methods people use
#
bengo aaronpk ofc but I think case studies would be super valuable to have published
#
bengo lessons learned, etc.
#
aaronpk well there's always this:
#
aaronpk what is database antipattern?
#
Loqi The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files, as documented with specific examples below https://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
#
aaronpk plenty of implementation experience there :)
#
bengo ah cool will read thanks
shiflett joined the channel
#
bengo Makes sense. I am essentiall static. i.e. content is in repo with server code. But online publishing (e.g. micropub) will require deviation from that
#
bengo So I'm particularly curious if there are micropubbers using filesystem only in a way that will scale to n+1 hosts, and how they've done it
#
aaronpk not exactly, there are some examples of people writing a micropub endpoint that commits to the git repo and then publishes the static site
#
bengo If I'm going to use a database, I don't want to pick github.com, which I don't own.
#
bengo But that's good to know.
#
bengo Perhaps I will make a wiki page to collect case studies and just mention it in lightning talk time at IWC
#
bengo and encourage folks to fill
#
bengo Is using a corporate web service as a database really less of an anti-pattern then running a database server? I'd vote no.
#
aaronpk using github as a host isn't really any worse than using heroku or any other FTP service
#
snarfed right. db vs filesystem (vs git, etc) is pretty orthogonal to which hosting provider you use, and at what level in the stack
mlncn joined the channel
#
bengo True. If github.com just happens to be the currently configured GIT_URL you've configured and it's nothing github specific, then awesome.
#
snarfed for indieweb specifically, the consensus has generally been that you definitely need to own and control your domain. below that, though, it's totally up to you how and where you host and serve your site
#
snarfed e.g. there are people on blogger and even tumblr who are fully indieweb and participate, even including indieauth and sending/receiving webmentions
#
snarfed feels kinda strongly about this :P
#
bengo Yeah I definitely wouldn't want to say anything normative that those aren't indiewebers. They best part is everyone gets to decide. Moreso curious about how others have chosen to do it
#
snarfed normative--
#
Loqi normative has -1 karma
#
snarfed choice++
#
bengo As a corollary, "database antipattern" is expremely normative
#
Loqi choice has 1 karma
#
snarfed heh agreed
#
snarfed "controversial divisive best practice," maybe
MrClaw joined the channel
#
bengo :)
#
snarfed i think we often miscommunicate it as "using a db for any webapp is bad," when we really just mean "using a db for your own personal site may be bad." very different things.
#
bengo If someone is currently supporting micropub publishing without using a networked database and can also scale past one rw filesystem, that's kinda what I'm curious about
#
bengo (and doesn't outsource that user story to some other free service that is unlikely to be around in 5yrs)
#
snarfed eh. honestly scaling isn't really a problem for any of our personal sites, db or fs or whatever they're backed with
johnstorey joined the channel
#
snarfed aaronpk may be the one exception, and even then only because he includes location, etc
#
snarfed sensors generate enough data that scaling actually matters. people, less so.
#
aaronpk i actually have a totally separate thing that stores all my location data. turns out a mysql/postgres database for that gets awkward fast, so now it's all in the filesystem
#
snarfed touche
#
aaronpk but we're talking about adding around 50,000-80,000 records per day in that
#
snarfed yup
#
snarfed and "outsourcing" and "unlikely to be around" aren't necessarily problems. if you own your domain, you can migrate elsewhere
#
snarfed i'm resigned to/expect to switch host and/or CMS every ~5 years or so at this point
#
aaronpk the "database antipattern" page is essentially a list of issues people have had with using a database as the primary store of their website and trying to keep it around more than a few years
#
aaronpk i agree it's not the best name for the page :)
#
bear the name is also an IWC scaling issue
#
snarfed also a pretty peripheral thing, not at all central to what we do here
#
aaronpk yeah, again, do whatever you want underneath http and html, but here are some things some of us have learned over time
#
aaronpk s/underneath/to generate
#
Loqi aaronpk meant to say: yeah, again, do whatever you want to generate http and html, but here are some things some of us have learned over time
#
gRegorLove What is MySQL?
#
Loqi MySQL is open source database software that is often used to store data in several indieweb CMS's like Known, and various other CMS's, e.g https://indiewebcamp.com/mysql
#
voxpelli bengo: I'm 100% static on my blog but has Micropub support through third party service that does git voodoo magic
#
gRegorLove What is Postgres?
#
Loqi PostgreSQL is a database used by some IndieWeb sites https://indiewebcamp.com/Postgres
#
gRegorLove I believe there's "pro"-db experience on those pages.
#
bengo I guess my long term interest is in architecting my indieweb stack such that I can truly trust it will continue working for many years. Yes that is a bit pedantic, but hey, it's a hobby.
#
gRegorLove Catching up on the webmention target conversation, I follow redirects when processing async, but on initial receiving I am checking the target is a URL on my domain, so it wouldn't accept t.co links. I hadn't thought about that before today.
#
voxpelli bengo: +1
#
bengo And yes, that will require putting it on metal in my closet.
#
gRegorLove It's a good thing to think about for sure, bengo
#
@seb_legall RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671441440220803072)
#
gRegorLove I've been on MySQL over a decade and pretty pleased with it.
#
bengo (storage size over time is an issue too, especially as self-sensors become more prevalent. See: ipfs and storj)
#
voxpelli aaronpk: on the redirect count topic – I think I limited Bloglovin to 5, but should be implementation specific if one wants to follow both third-party and internal redirects as that might result in more than 5 in worst cases maybe
#
snarfed bengo: will you also write your own OS? run a generator for power? become your own ISP? and get it to tier 1, so you can peer with the other backbone networks?
#
snarfed apologizes for being snarky
#
voxpelli bengo: storing HTML in git feels pretty solid to me
#
bengo snarfed you're right about all that
#
bengo And it's a good way to learn those lower layers
#
bengo (Debian, Solar Power, bluetooth peering)
#
bengo You're asking the right questions :)
#
snarfed i'm jealous, you have way more free time than i do :P
#
bengo My site was down for six months until a week ago. YOu make bridgy awesome every week!
#
bengo :P
#
snarfed heh. thanks!
#
bengo Thinking easier than doing. And to your point about practically being in control means you can deal with disruptions to external services, that's what I plan to do until I have my indiemark way higher and that other stuff actually matters.
#
bengo Donno proper wiki page to link to wrt avoiding getting lost in the sky
#
voxpelli bengo: so basically I do progressive enhancement on my content – my core content is static and versioned through git, but webmentions and such that are just nice to haves are stored in DB and pulled in through JS or linked to on external sites
#
bengo voxpelli me too on the first part https://github.com/gobengo/bengo-web/tree/master/notes. I don't publish webmentions yet, just feel good knowing webmention.io is storing them for me until I'm ready :)
#
bengo Finally, wrt database-over-tcp vs filesystem. Things like this can make it so that the latter scales even further than the former. http://docs.ceph.com/docs/master/cephfs/
#
bengo So definitely not hating on filesystem folks (like me right now)
#
voxpelli bengo: looks like something that could fit with my Micropub approach pretty well ;) you would just need an alternative formatter that doesn't use YAML front matter
#
bengo voxpelli where is there YAML front matter?
#
voxpelli bengo: in my formatter that converts the received Micropub document to a file that I can add to git
#
voxpelli bengo: wrote a bit about it at https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kodfabrik.se#.22A_Micropub_Endpoint.22, but haven't yet written a full blog post about it or actually published the glue between the parts openly
#
bengo Ah cool will read.
#
voxpelli client work got inbetween – maybe I can do it before the end of the year as a 2016 01 01 commitment
#
bengo ooh yay node libs
#
voxpelli bengo: all of my indieweb stuff is node, my webmention endpoint as well
#
bengo me too :)
#
voxpelli -> https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
#
voxpelli what is 2016-01-01-commitments?
#
Loqi 2016-01-01-commitments are implementation and launch commitments publicly made by the IndieWeb community to ship on their personal sites by 2016-01-01 00:00 local time https://indiewebcamp.com/2016-01-01-commitments
#
voxpelli still only bear there?
#
bengo voxpelli Also have this that I hope to generalize bengo-web features into: http://npm.im/indieweb
elima joined the channel
#
bengo https://indieweb-example.herokuapp.com/
#
voxpelli bengo: cool, you can probably hook https://github.com/voxpelli/node-micropub-express right into that to get basic micropub support
#
bengo https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/issues/6
#
bengo Added :)
#
bengo (to backlog)
#
gRegorLove voxpelli: What's your 2016-01-01 commitment? ;) (thanks for the prompt. I need to post mine and update the wiki)
#
voxpelli gRegorLove: not sure, so many things to pick from! I've got a bit too many projects at the moment :)
#
kylewm anyone have experience with Hoodie?
#
@ErosBlogBacchus RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671448096820236289)
#
kylewm I think I want to use it for my hack day project
tantek joined the channel
#
bengo what is hoodie
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hoodie" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1086
#
bengo Flying back from AR->SF. See y'all thursday (and some tomorrow)
#
tantek would a hoodie be a clothing symbol of independence? should we make indieweb hoodies?
#
aaronpk isn't a hoodie the clothing symbol of zuckerberg?
#
tantek nah, the flip flops
#
tantek or perhaps the pairing of
#
aaronpk https://beingsakin.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/social-network-jesse-eisenberg.jpg
#
aaronpk is what i was thinking of
#
kylewm Hoodie (http://hood.ie) is an open source library for building web applications
#
kylewm Hoodie (http://hood.ie) is an open source library for building web applications.
#
aaronpk "Hoodie is"
#
tantek kylewm: got to be "keyword" (space) is
#
tantek what is hacker photo
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hacker photo" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/1087
#
tantek pretty sure we have that documented
#
tantek hacker photo is [[hacker images]]
#
loqi.me created /hacker_photo (+26) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-30/line/1448920973167 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
kylewm Hoodie is an open source library for building web applications; it is intended to be fun and easy for frontend developers to build applications that plug into the Hoodie backend.
#
loqi.me created /Hoodie (+205) "prompted by bengo https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-30/line/1448920775522 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek aaronpk: allow me to retort: http://www.gruenderszene.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/panthermedia_9195774_940x627_crop.jpg
#
aaronpk heh nice
#
Jeena Mr. Robot!
#
Jeena https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zSqu8myTkY8/maxresdefault.jpg
snarfed joined the channel
#
@dch__ RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671450302630002689)
#
tantek let's re-use "Dark Web" to mean invisible web - as in invisible data that rots, sidefiles and such
#
aaronpk lol
#
tantek.com edited /hacker_images (+281) "Jesse Eisenberg" (view diff)
#
tantek last I checked hoodie.io it was a js;dr framework - anyone have any recent experience to the contrary?
#
snarfed on an unrelated note...does anyone using the facebook API have experience with how it consolidates photo posts? e.g. into "X added 2 new photos." post objects
#
aaronpk js frameworks are fine for apps if they're not storing or serving content that way
#
tantek snarfed: good question!
#
snarfed it breaks bridgy, details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/562#issuecomment-160217774 , and i haven't managed to find developer-facing/API docs on how to handle it
#
snarfed official or otherwise
#
tantek my limited anecdotal experience is it happens automatically (perhaps on the presentation side?) when sequential photo posts are published, less than 24 hours apart from each other
#
aaronpk the last couple weeks i've been using a JS IRC client! it stores its logs in plaintext files on my server though so that's nice!
#
tantek as in I've seen it cluster photos like that, except when I post a photo sequentially *the next day*, it gets its own stream "item" in my "timeline"
#
tantek instead of being part of the previous "cluster" of "added to an album"
#
tantek not sure if that helps
#
tantek also if I post a photo, then a note, then a photo, they are all distinct items
#
tantek not sure what happens if I do that, then delete the note, whether a subsequent reclustering occurs
#
snarfed yeah, the user-facing behavior is somewhat understood, but only somewhat. how it's reflected in API objects and ids - the part i need - is even less understood. :/
#
tantek you may not need full understanding in order to solve the problem
#
kylewm also good read re: hacker photo http://matt.lee.name/super-hacker/
#
tantek that is, if you can do some sequence of API calls to cause unique posts rather than "album" clustering, that would be sufficient right?
#
snarfed tantek: sure! that's totally speculative though
#
snarfed well, actually no. this is for backfeed, so i can't assume any posting behavior
#
tantek snarfed, hey in the world of quarterly API changes, speculative seems like a reasonable path forward
#
tantek oh right
#
tantek sorry I was jumping to imagining BP behaving in a way that made BB better
#
tantek as a "naive" user, I would expect a single BP "call" to make a single post, not to auto-cluster anything
#
tantek I'm "ok" with current behavior, yet it's a bit of a surprise
#
jeena.net edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (+82) "/* Göteborg */ added event urls" (view diff)
#
jeena.net edited /events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club (+1) "/* Göteborg */" (view diff)
#
kevinmarks responding to the earlier question, my webmention implementation doesn't follow target links initially to verify, but does to look for webmention endpoints to ping. I could change that though
snarfed joined the channel
#
loqi.me created /DoPA (+470) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /DoPA (+232) "more how to respond, see also" (view diff)
hs0ucy joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /DoPA (+137) "linky, expand dfn" (view diff)
#
kevinmarks this is DoPA relevant: http://www.businessinsider.com/oss-manual-sabotage-productivity-2015-11
shiflett joined the channel
#
tantek that businessinsider article is js;dr
#
tantek js;dr is a good DoPA shield too
Calli joined the channel
#
kevinmarks better citation https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/2012-featured-story-archive/simple-sabotage.html
#
@dkreuz RT @timklapdor: THIS! Higher Ed needs to start backing the indieweb rather than spending/investing on the big corporates & startups https:/… (twitter.com/_/status/671468160428675072)
#
kevinmarks what is dopa
#
Loqi DoPA is an abbreviation for Denial of Productivity Attack, a method often used by trolls and non-implementers (perhaps without explicit maliciousness but rather misfocus) to slow down or prevent progress by misdirecting creator selfdogfooders into responding to hypothetical problems, instead of their own real world itches https://indiewebcamp.com/DoPA
yakker joined the channel
#
kevinmarks.com edited /DoPA (+1101) "Add CIA example" (view diff)
Gold joined the channel
#
@FrederickLittl3 RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671471790946959362)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu re: webmention from twitter links. I never managed to figure out how to do it
#
kevinmarks apart from brid.gy
#
KartikPrabhu yeah. but marginalia with twitter is hard
#
KartikPrabhu because I only use replies as marginalia
#
tantek Twitter @-replies can be replies
#
tantek via Bridgy
hober joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu but you can't reply to a fragmention via twitter so no marginalia
#
tantek thus the question is, how could one indicate, in plain text in a tweet, that an @-reply is in reply to a particular fragment on a page?
#
tantek solve that question, with a reasonable proposal, and see if anyone publishes it
#
tantek then if you get real world examples, you can try processing it
#
tantek never say "you can't" when you can ask "how can you"
#
KartikPrabhu here is an example: https://twitter.com/shepazu/status/484902457047130113
#
@shepazu @kartik_prabhu very cool, but the side-panel needs its own “close” button, in addition to the annotation icon https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/marginalia (twitter.com/_/status/484902457047130113)
#
KartikPrabhu even Loqi strips out the fragmention
#
Loqi :)
#
@DodgerWA RT @benwerd: Proposal: let's stop using the phrase "Dark Web". It's the Private Web. #indieweb #tor #privacy (twitter.com/_/status/671476646466084864)
#
tantek aww - why does Loqi strip out the fragmention?!? perhaps file a bug on /Loqi
#
tantek gives Loqi a warning that a bug report is coming
#
Loqi hearts the warning that a bug report is coming
#
KartikPrabhu what is Loqi?
#
Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels https://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: is the wiki page the best place to file Loqi bugs?
#
kevinmarks I think twiter strips it oo
#
kevinmarks oh no
#
KartikPrabhu no the link in that tweet works just fine
#
kevinmarks its https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia#%23scrollable+side-panel
#
kevinmarks very retro fragmention stylings there
#
KartikPrabhu you mean the grey highlight?
#
kevinmarks no, I meant the #%23
#
KartikPrabhu oh ha yeah
#
KartikPrabhu but it still works
#
KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal++ for pretty robust fragmention.js
#
Loqi JonathanNeal has 17 karma