#indiewebcamp 2015-12-13

2015-12-13 UTC
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tantek
just PESOS'd a photo I contributed to Wikimedia commons instead of IG
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tantek
let's see how this works
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tantek
wow Twitter's crop sucked
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tantek
whereas FB had no problem
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tantek
hey snarfed, any idea why Twitter would oddly crop this photo upload from Bridgy Publish? https://twitter.com/t/status/675827445421899776
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@t
Another from Tuesday: the Eiffel Tower in the line for Small World. Contributed to… (http://tantek.com/2015/346/t2/eiffel-tower-small-world) [photo]
(twtr.io/173h7cAh7hw)
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snarfed
tantek: nope, i don't know much (anything) about twitter photo cropping
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tantek
I've just never seen it (or noticed?) before so was surprised
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snarfed
on a related note though, i managed to get fb publish to keep photo posts separate instead of consolidating
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snarfed
merry xmas :P
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tantek
whoa!
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tantek
how?!?
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GWG
snarfed: And a joyous Kwanzaa to you.
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tantek
and did you choose to make that a default? (makes sense)
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snarfed
options--
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Loqi
options has -1 karma
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snarfed
kylewm: this looks up your alley (right now at least): https://appback.com/
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snarfed
tantek: it uploads to the timeline photos album explicitly, which is special and doesn't consolidate
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snarfed
i think i mentioned it when we talked about it the other day
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tantek
a-ha!
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tantek
snarfed, that's much more elegant as there's no need to create a separate album
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snarfed
it actually creates the per-app albums automatically by default if you don't specify an album when you upload a photo
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snarfed
but yes, i'm pleasantly surprised we actually got this to work
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snarfed
FB and all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek
snarfed++ thank you!
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Loqi
snarfed has 183 karma
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snarfed
welcome!
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tantek
is that deployed yet?
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tantek
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102015068643083 (just posted minutes ago) still links to "Bridgy Photos" (e.g. in sidebar and when you click "Back to Album")
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snarfed
yeah, looks like that was 3:59pm pst; i deployed at 4:02pm
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snarfed
indeed
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tantek
I suppose I should post another photo then :)
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tantek
goodness, what happens if I publish a video?
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tantek
stops himself before he posts a video to IG
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tantek
Twitter and FB both support video posts...
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tantek
checks bridgy docs
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tantek
no mention of u-video
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snarfed
nope, sorry
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tantek
hmm - snarfed what would happen if I pretended to post a photo but the file was a video?
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snarfed
i have no idea
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snarfed
but i know how to find out!
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tantek
as in a u-photo link to a video file - are there separate API calls to post a photo vs. a video on Twitter or FB?
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snarfed
i have no idea
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snarfed
but i know how to find out!
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KartikPrabhu
make a test post! :)
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tantek
yeah this is going to be an ugly hack
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tantek
I'm not even sure I can get a direct mpeg or whatever reference from IG
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kylewm
snarfed: is it literally hosted Hoodie?
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kylewm
appback I mean
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kylewm
maybe I should try hoodie out again now that I'm not trying to get something done for iwc
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tantek
well I found a .mp4 file
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tantek
which plays in both Safari and Firefox. I did hear this past week that we'd solved that problem. hope for the future of video posting.
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tantek
now for the ugly hack of claiming it's both a video and a photo for compat with Bridgy's current implementation
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tantek
(just to see what happens)
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tantek
(really hoping I don't break anything)
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tantek
hopes and fears as it were ;)
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tantek
I suppose it doesn't make sense to link a video since it typically has clickable controls of its own.
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tantek
snarfed, I think just as with photos, I have stumbled into implementing video posts
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tantek
this is what happens when I sleep <2 hours in 24+. executive control lowered to the point of following temptations to do something crazy like implement video posts.
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tantek
here goes nothing
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tantek
hmm well that didn't POSSE as expected
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tantek
one more conditional to hack
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tantek
ok let's try this POSSE one more time
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tantek
ok so that didn't POSSE to Twitter
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tantek
{ "error": "Error: {\"errors\":[{\"code\":189,\"message\":\"Error creating status.\"}]} 403 Client Error: Forbidden" }
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tantek
that's what Bridgy publish returned from the Webmention
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snarfed
yeah, i figured if either worked, it'd be fb, not twitter
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snarfed
feel free to file feature requests!
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tantek
perhaps I shouldn't bother to POSSE video to Twitter yet?
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snarfed
it's probably possible, we just haven't looked into it yet
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tantek
right. now I'm trying to hack my publishing code to only Bridgy Publish POSSE to FB
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tantek
it's currently dependent on first POSSEing to Twitter, and stops if that fails
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tantek
and I broke mobile presentation
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tantek
however the good news is that a single .mp4 plays fine on mobile safari as well as Firefox
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tantek
snarfed, looks like FB does not like that either but provides a much more clear error:
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tantek
{ "error": "Error: {\"error\":{\"message\":\"Invalid parameter\",\"type\":\"FacebookApiException\",\"code\":100,\"error_subcode\":1366046,\"is_transient\":false,\"error_user_title\":\"Can't Read Files\",\"error_user_msg\":\"Your photos couldn't be uploaded. Photos should be less than 4 MB and saved as JPG, PNG, GIF or TIFF files.\",\"fbtrace_id\":\"GblXFhuDpF8\"}} HTTP Error 500: Internal Server Error" }
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tantek
ok that's good enough for me to stop trying with existing Bridgy Publish support for now. test complete.
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tantek
now I'll request it properly (u-video :) )
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tantek
instead of trying to hack u-photo
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tantek
!tell benwerd did http://werd.io/view/520ed6b7bed7de4914317083 break unintentionally? or did you delete the post? was your only video post example on /video
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /video (+1222) "How subheads, How to POSSE, move Barnaby's "videos" to proto since no way to tell they're videos not photos, noted who uses u-video or not"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /video (+687) "/* Indieweb Support */ IndieWeb Examples vs support, separate services to their own section, add Tantek with today's video post example"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell aaronpk could you add u-video markup to your <video> tags in video posts? E.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Aaron_Parecki
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell shaners could you add u-video markup (and remove the u-photo) to your <video> tags in video posts? E.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Shane_Becker
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
fixed that mobile presentation that I broke
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tantek
I'm watching video on my site on my Firefox OS device!
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tantek
(seriously can't believe all this works)
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tantek
and while I was in there, got full bleed images to work on my home page
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tantek
(on mobile)
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+398) "Videos (no POSSE yet), got full bleed photos working on home page"
(view diff)
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tantek
alright that's enough indieweb hacking for one night.
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[kevinmarks]
Hm. Should u-photo get the poster?
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[shaners]
!tell Tantek. My thinking for `u-photo` on the `video` tag was so that (hopefully) parsers could use the `poster` attribute as the preview image. I have `u-video` on my nested `source` tag.
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Loqi
[shaners]: tantek left you a message 14 hours, 19 minutes ago: could you add u-video markup (and remove the u-photo) to your <video> tags in video posts? E.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Shane_Becker http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-12/line/1449974250653
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KartikPrabhu
[shaners]: for preview image the current thinking seems to be to use u-featured as in featured image
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[shaners]
What is featured?
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[shaners]
What is h-entry?
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Loqi
featured is a proposed mf2 property (typically as u-featured) for h-entry that indicates a representative image for a primarily textual post https://indiewebcamp.com/featured
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Loqi
h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites https://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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[shaners]
Kevinmarks: do you fall back to u-photo if there is no u-featured?
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[kevinmarks]
I do, but there is an assumption that a photo post is u-photo I think
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[kevinmarks]
Why is post type discovery
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[kevinmarks]
What is post type discovery?
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Loqi
Post Type Discovery specifies an algorithm for determining the type of a post by what properties it has and potentially what value(s) they have, which helps avoid the need for explicit post types that are being abandoned by modern post creation UIs https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery
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kylewm
huh, it looks like twitter only supports gif and webp videos ... that's kind of a bummer for bridgy publish & silo.pub
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[shaners]
I have some memory of u-featured being fairly contentious and not universally agreed upon.
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KartikPrabhu
[shaners]: I don't know about contentious but it isn't widely used. Honestly I made it up to markup featured images
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[kevinmarks]
Hm, what does it take to show up as a video in a twitter card?
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[kevinmarks]
I'm saying that if you use u-photo, post type discovery will decide it is a photo post ie the photo is the primary content. If the photo is just supportive and text is primary, use u-featured
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snarfed1
kylewm: from https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public/uploading-media : "Supported video formats: MP4"
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kylewm
snarfed: huh, I'm seeing that too, also on the chunked upload page, but on https://dev.twitter.com/rest/reference/post/media/upload it does not include video
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kylewm
hopefully just a doc bug, and there's some other reason that i'm not able to upload vids right now
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snarfed
docs, whee :P
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kylewm
it's funny how often i run across one of y'all in researching things like this (bret in this case) https://github.com/ttezel/twit/issues/183
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bret
heh, you gonna do twitter videos kylewm ?
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kylewm
trying...
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snarfed
ooh fun!
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bret
i need to fix some error handling, but other than that works pretty well
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bret
or at least serve as a basic reference implementation if you want it in python
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snarfed
bret++
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snarfed
also, coverage!
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Loqi
bret has 80 karma
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[shaners]
Re: `u-featured` vs `u-photo`.
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[shaners]
What about audio posts that have an album cover image et al? Should that be
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[shaners]
`u-featured` vs `u-photo`?
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KartikPrabhu
u-photo is mostly for photo posts. Since for audio posts the album cover is not the actual main content I'd say u-featured is better
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GWG
puts on his tantek hat
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GWG
Is someone documenting this?
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[shaners]
I feel like u-featured is adding additional vocabulary that u-photo already covers.
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[shaners]
But maybe this ship has sailed and everyone else thinks u-featured is a good idea.
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[shaners]
What is h-entry
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Loqi
h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites https://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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KartikPrabhu
[shaners]: I don't know if there is anyone consuming u-featured yet (apart from KevinMarks' story cards)
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[jonnybarnes]
aaronpk: I can’t indieauth using Google? Is this a known issue?
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[aaronpk]
Not sure. I think they did a recent update tho
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Loqi
[aaronpk]: tantek left you a message 16 hours, 29 minutes ago: could you add u-video markup to your <video> tags in video posts? E.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Aaron_Parecki http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-12/line/1449974215217
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[jonnybarnes]
well github worked so at least I can still log into my micropub client
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kylewm
[shaners]: I sympathize. u-featured feels a bit like a kludge to make up for not having explicit post types, but I think it's worth making the distinction even if we did have explicit post types. Sharing a photo is pretty different semantically than including a vaguely related header image at the top of an article.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: does woodwind use u-featured?
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kylewm
no, buy woodwind doesn't use u-photo either
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KevinMarks
or summary
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KevinMarks
what I'm at wiht story cards is that name/summary/content is a good generla model, and featured is away to add an image
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tantek
Loqi, playback.
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
ah that !tell never got confirmed by Loqi
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tantek
!tell shaners no "." necessary after name when !tell https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-13/line/1450025846840
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
!tell shaners appreciate the correction re: u-photo and u-video! I'll fix wiki.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks
does post type discovery need to distinguish audio and video posts?
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tantek
since there are two HTML5 tags, yes
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tantek.com
edited /video (+148) "/* Shane Becker */ uses u-video on source element, attempts use of u-photo for poster attribute"
(view diff)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I agree with your thinking to use u-featurd for a poster image for video
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tantek
s/u-featurd/u-featured
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: I agree with your thinking to use u-featured for a poster image for video
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[shaners]
Tantek: do you also think u-featured should be used for the image on an audio post?
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Loqi
[shaners]: tantek left you a message 9 minutes ago: no "." necessary after name when !tell https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-13/line/1450025846840 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-13/line/1450034859734
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Loqi
[shaners]: tantek left you a message 9 minutes ago: appreciate the correction re: u-photo and u-video! I'll fix wiki. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-13/line/1450034880394
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I agree with your thinking to use u-featured for a poster image for video
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tantek
shaners: I think u-featured would make sense for the album/song image for an audio post too
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tantek
shaners, to make your use of u-photo for the poster image work (even if/when you switched it to use u-featured), we may need to add fall back u-* parsing to <video> elements to /microformats2-parsing
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tantek
" else if img.u-x[src] or audio.u-x[src] or video.u-x[src] or source.u-x[src], then get the src attribute "
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tantek
which covers u-video on <video> or on <source>
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tantek
we could change that to:
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tantek
or rather, we could insert a step right after that to:
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tantek
" else video.u-x[poster], then get the poster attribute "
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tantek
s/else/else if/
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: " else if video.u-x[poster], then get the poster attribute "
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tantek
shaners re: "some memory of u-featured being fairly contentious and not universally agreed upon" - pretty sure we resolved all the debates/issues around it and reached a pretty good broad consensus. if you remember a specific issue with it, and we haven't documented it, please bring it and we'll refigure it out if have to!
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tantek
kevinmarks is right about the intent of u-featured: "If the photo is just supportive and text [or other content] is primary, use u-featured"
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KartikPrabhu
what is video?
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Loqi
video is a type of post supported by a few silos https://indiewebcamp.com/video
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tantek
shaners, re: "feel like u-featured is adding additional vocabulary that u-photo already covers" - I was concerned about this initially too, however it's become pretty clear that capturing that author intent of "primary" vs. "supportive" content is important for more easily disambiguating, and provides a nice hook for the concept of image summaries for pages/posts of any kind that authors have been taught to publish by OGP,
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tantek
Twitter Cards, etc.
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tantek
shaners, I'm happy to write that up as an FAQ if that makes explanation makes sense to you.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu, I didn't know we had any u-featured consuming code yet
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[shaners]
Thanks. I think the debate around it was when I wasn't in channel as much. So I didn't see the resolution.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: only KevinMarks' story cards
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[shaners]
I'll remove u-photo on my video posts
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tantek
shaners - that should be ok (not being in the channel as much), as it's up to those that do debate/resolve to capture any kind of questions/conclusions in the wiki
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tantek
if the answer is not on the wiki page that means that it will get asked again
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tantek
shaners, I think your publishing intent made sense with attempting to reference the poster image
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tantek
I'm now considering implementing the same myself
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KartikPrabhu
poster images on video tags are trickier
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tantek
would you consider using u-featured instead of u-photo for the poster image?
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[shaners]
Can `poster` be added to the lookup chain for u-* though? So I can use `u-featured` on
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tantek
shaners, right, that's the point of my proposal here: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-13#t1450035721661
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[shaners]
S/on/on it?/
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KartikPrabhu
a basic video is <video src="file.mp4" poster="image.jpg"></video> not sure how to markup poster image on that
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[shaners]
Gotcha. Thought so. Just wanted to be sure.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: point being, you can't in that simplest case
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tantek
if you want to express both video and poster URLs to mf2 you need to use two elements
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tantek
<video class="u-featured" poster="image.jpg"><source src="file.mp4"/></video>
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tantek
s/source/source class="u-video"
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: <video class="u-featured" poster="image.jpg"><source class="u-video" src="file.mp4"/></video>
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tantek
assuming we made that mf2 parser change obv
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tantek
I also think there may be merit in making this work ok:
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tantek
<video class="u-featured u-photo" poster="image.jpg"><source class="u-video" src="file.mp4"/></video>
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tantek
assuming there are consuming code clients out there that may understand u-photo but do not understand u-video or u-featured yet
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tantek
but maybe there are no such clients
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tantek
despite the DRY violation, this would be a better way to mark that up though: <video class="u-featured" poster="image.jpg"><source class="u-video" src="file.mp4"/><img class="u-photo" src="image.jpg" alt="A video with a fallback image"/></video>
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[shaners]
Good point.
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tantek
shaners, really appreciate you pushing the cutting edge with marking up video posts, definitely helping move things forward.
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[shaners]
Tantek: can you view source on my video post and dis/confirm that my markup now reflects your suggestion above?
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[shaners]
I'm on iPad only for the next few weeks and can't easily view source.
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tantek
wonders if Firefox/iOS can do that
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tantek
doesn't look like it. time to file a feature request.
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[shaners]
Thanks! That'd be nice to have.
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[shaners]
(Next I have to fix my off by one error on video files so they actually display and play)
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tantek
welcome back ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+282) "dfn, disambig video post"
(view diff)
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tantek
shaners also fun is you can check pin13
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tantek
markup looks good - though did you mean to have 2 u-featured of the same URL?
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tantek
the <img> inside would probably make more sense as a u-photo as fallback for the u-video
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[shaners]
Nope. That was an autopilot brain accident.
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tantek
shaners, hmm - I'm seeing featured the same as the permalink in the pin13 result now. checking source...
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tantek
and that's likely a bug in the phpmf2
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tantek
there is no src attribute on the video so it's somehow taking that as empty "" and treating it as a relative URL on the page's URL and thus expanding it to the same as the page
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tantek
shaners, regardless your markup looks good!
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tantek.com
edited /video (+118) "/* Shane Becker */ update description with u-featured and u-photo"
(view diff)
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[shaners]
I noticed that too and assumed it was a parser concern. Not looking at the poster attr yet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek
it's worse than ignoring poster - it's adding noise
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tantek
!tell ben_thatmustbeme check out how shaners marks up his video posts with <video><source>, and consider doing the same. right now your video posts are not expressing the u-video URL since it is not on the same element as the URL: https://indiewebcamp.com/video#Ben_Roberts
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[shaners]
Thanks for updating the wiki re: my video markups
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tantek
np. it's good to have such an advanced example.
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[shaners]
Wanna audit my other post types' markup and give me notes? :wink:
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tantek
I should eat breakfast first :)
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tantek
and then fix my own video posts to have poster/fallback image like yours
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tantek
we want to incentivize the consuming code writers to handle video+poster+photo-fallback
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tantek
video *post* I should say. I've only posted one.
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[shaners]
Breakfast is important!
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KevinMarks
the other reason fir featured is in a profile page, where u-photo is the headshot and u-featured is the banner imsage
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tantek
!tell benwerd lots of /video post activity in the past 24hrs, looks like we might be getting critical mass of indieweb video post support across projects / personal sites! Need your examples!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
KevinMarks: that seems like a fallback usage of u-featured, rather than a primary meaning
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tantek
that is - you're twisting meaning, and using something for other than what it means
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tantek
e.g. FB calls it "Cover Photo"
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tantek
what does Twitter call it?
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tantek
what does About.me call it? (i.e. in their UIs)
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tantek
start with such UI presentation first and then determine the semantic, rather than starting with plumbing (u-featured) and retrofitting it to similar looking things.
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tantek
KevinMarks have you posted any video on your Known site? known.kevinmarks.com ?
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tantek.com
edited /video (+186) "better dfn, we have more indieweb video posts now, note Twitter is another video silo (when did that happen?)"
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[shaners]
What is video
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Loqi
video is a type of post where the primary content is a video file (recorded movie, animation etc.) typically with audio, and has growing support on the indie web https://indiewebcamp.com/video
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tantek
now to figure out how/if I want to manually POSSE my video post
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tantek
looks for existing examples of video post POSSEing and doesn't find much
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tantek
gets distracted when attempting to figure out how to post video to Twitter
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tantek
when did Twitter polls expand to more than two options?
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tantek
e.g. https://twitter.com/johnaugust/status/676113841025978368 (polls are still js;dr, options are ( ) Growth, ( ) Churn, ( ) Coincidence)
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@johnaugust
The last three times I've used Uber, I've gotten drivers on their first day. Is that...
(twtr.io/175QS4GwZzU)
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kylewm
tantek: just possed a video (first time) here https://kylewm.com/2015/12/war-on-pens-video-test
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kylewm
I put the original in an S3 bucket and possed to Twitter via silo.pub, but did both of things manually :P
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GWG
Has anyone thought of nicknames cache as a service?
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kylewm
GWG: in what way? like, a service that you give a url and it gives you back a cached h-card?
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kylewm
or like a personal address book that'd need auth and stuff?
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GWG
kylewm: Well, autolinking, for example, wouldn't work on cached h-cards.
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GWG
For example, I want to have @kylewm map to something.
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GWG
The auto-link part could be done on my site, but there could be a service for that.
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kylewm
aaronpk discussed it briefly at IWC i believe...i can't remember what the context was
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GWG
aaronpk has a service for everything. That is the way he redesigned his site
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kylewm
it's definitely hard to do without letting each person define their own nicknames
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kylewm
maybe like, you could publish a really simple list of hcards that just have a nickname and url. and when you query the nickname cache service, you give it your list and it fills in the blanks (avatar, social media urls, etc.)
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tantek.com
edited /NIH (+80) "not just bigcos, fix dfn, see also antipatterns"
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GWG
Many people use the same username all over the place though
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kylewm
how does that change the problem/solution?
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GWG
Well, if a nicknames cache allows query by any name, it can return all possibilities it has cached within it and allow you to choose from them if there is a collision.
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GWG
For example...
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[snarfed]
this kinda seems like plumbing in search of a use case
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[snarfed]
the CMS still has to extract username mentions and replace them with h-cards
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[snarfed]
and you also have to populate it either way
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[snarfed]
so the tradeoff is HTTP fetch vs local storage and lookup. doesn't seem like a clear win...
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GWG
snarfed, I'm thinking from a post UI point of view though.
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[snarfed]
...*unless* it's shared across users, and then there are lots of unknowns to figure out, as kylewm alluded to
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GWG
Good reason why I'm not building it, I suppose.
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[snarfed]
GWG: ok...? still don't see how a remote service helps though
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[snarfed]
heh fair
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GWG
But it is mostly about the question of how I sort through all the snarfeds I know to find the one I want to mention right now.
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GWG
Github, for example, makes that easy.
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kylewm
ohh, or a nickname cache federation, where you could share caches
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GWG
I was just contemplating what the Indieweb alternative might be
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GWG
Especially if I know people I talk to are likely to have entries for other people I talk to.
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kylewm
like for a given nickname, it'd search my cache first then Alice's, then irc-people, then twitter
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bear
I always thought a name cache would always be local and it would learn of new sources by the webmentions or micropubs it processes -- it would follow links and do a discovery of the other person's cache
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bear
but not having a need for one the above is just me day dreaming
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GWG
bear: I've based my Indieweb experience on the work of others.
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GWG
My webmention support was written by pfefferle
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GWG
My Micropub support by snarfed
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GWG
WordPress...well, by however many people
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GWG
Bridgy by snarfed.
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GWG
Etc
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bear
sure, I was just giving the "architecture astronaut" disclaimer as I haven't implemented it for my site yet, just thought about it
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GWG
bear: I want to be the architecture mission controller.
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GWG
Sorry, was at Kennedy Space Center this past week. Decided I'm not going into space.
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tantek
kylewm: nice! Add yourself to /video#IndieWeb_Examples!
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tantek
hmm Twitter's video support is pretty bad. js;dr in FF, and on Safari I get "This browser does not support video playback." in white text on top of the poster frame: https://twitter.com/kylewmahan/status/676118863772188672
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tantek
odd - video playback *does* work in Twitter in the in-stream view! e.g. https://twitter.com/kylewmahan and scroll down to your video post
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tantek
kylewm: also I think "using micropub" is at least semi-automated, I've always thought of "manual POSSE" as meaning using the UI of the silo directly to create a new post that is a copy of your original post.
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GWG
Do people feel Micropub is sufficiently mature?
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tantek
depends on what you're asking of it
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loqi.me
created /Move_to_iOS (+188) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /Move_to_iOS (+137) "linky, issues, see also"
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tantek.com
moved /Sites_with_data_portability to /data-portability "because we need a page for this in general, and this is a good start"
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tantek.com
edited /data-portability (+319) "stuf, dfn, headers"
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bret
kylewm: did you try twitter-video? :D
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tantek
what is twitter-video?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "twitter-video" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/109n
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