#indiewebcamp 2015-12-30

2015-12-30 UTC
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Schnitz snarfed: Just an implementation question regarding bridgy: Is bridgy using some generic way of filtering the posts out of tumblr and invoking webmentions, OR, is bridgy actually going thru the markup of each tumblr and checks for h-entries?
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snarfed Schnitz: superfeedr does the parsing
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Schnitz ok, do you off top off your head what superfeedr does parsing-wise?
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Schnitz or the other round, I curious whether I can get any control over what is being recognized e.g. as webmention URLs
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snarfed http://documentation.superfeedr.com/schema.html#json
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snarfed docs are around there
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snarfed bridgy deliberately tries to send webmentions to all urls/links in your post body. i'm not sure i'd add a user option to override that
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snarfed do you have a use case?
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Schnitz I did a test and it didn't work: its still in the bridgy table even though I deleted the post then... it had tantek URL in the post body... on a previous attempt a URL in the post body was used as webmention URL
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Schnitz snarfed: so because I have both behaviours, once a URL in the post body got use as a webmention link and once it didn't work, I was wondering...
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Schnitz ... whether I can enforce that somehow
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Schnitz https://brid.gy/tumblr/belp.audio ... Nce Beatles Cover ... should have had Tantek Post as webmention
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snarfed Schnitz: ok, looking. you can click on the log links to see the details of what it saw and did
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snarfed ...except hmm, that one is missing, not sure why
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Schnitz snarfed: they all seem missing in my table (logs)
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snarfed many at least. 2 and 3 are there
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Schnitz snarfed: to be more precious, after this one (Beatles) all the logs are missing
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Schnitz right
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snarfed right. sorry about that. not sure why.
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Schnitz no sorry! Great investigation
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Schnitz OK but you seem to actually just see the RSS representation of tumblr as it seems from the superfeedr documentation
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Schnitz this would mean it has nothing to do with my h-entries
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Schnitz superfeedr uses Atom or RSS views of Tumblr as the basis... AFAIK
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Schnitz I will repost this post now with the Tantek URL in the post body... we will have to wait like an hour or so until it updates :-)
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snarfed maybe wait a bit before reposting, there's more i can look at right now
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Schnitz Oh ok
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snarfed yup, superfeedr isn't giving me any content for most of your posts
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Schnitz snarfed: yup, that is what I was fearing, but great to find that, thanks so far
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Schnitz snarfed: now, can I possibly get more control over what superfeedr finds or is this on your end, or both?
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snarfed as a superfeedr user, i don't believe i have much (any) control over how superfeedr parses your site
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snarfed if you find anything i can do, i'll happily try!
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Schnitz snarfed: yup I thought so
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Schnitz maybe it *does* parse my tumblr specifically? Is had to no? Otherwise it would work? I cannot be that superfeeds misses the content of *all* parsed tumblr sites?
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Schnitz maybe it does check my h-entries... or its doing some undocumented voodoo on how to get this stuff out of tumblrs
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snarfed it does work with at least some tumblrs. i'm not surprised that some don't though, since you can put arbitrary html in your theme
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snarfed i bet their parsing is documented somewhat, if you look through their docs
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Schnitz snarfed: interesting
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Schnitz snarfed: wait, I have an idea
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Schnitz snarfed: do you know the user name of this tumblr in bridgy and can we look up the bridgy table for comparison? http://andthenitcametotheend.tumblr.com/
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Schnitz tallus maybe?
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[snarfed] sure! username is just domain
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Schnitz [snarfed] oh, he's not on brid.gy https://brid.gy/tumblr/andthenitcametotheend.tumblr.com
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Schnitz Duh
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Schnitz How could this guy then promote this as the default tumblr for IndieWebCamp if he's not even dogfeeding?
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Schnitz He's using a way cleaner markup though, would still be interesting
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Schnitz [snarfed]: could you try'n parse https://brid.gy/tumblr/andthenitcametotheend.tumblr.com testwise?
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snarfed here are a few others: https://www.brid.gy/tumblr/snarfed.tumblr.com , https://www.brid.gy/tumblr/axyl.us
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snarfed Schnitz: sorry, i don't follow. you want me to sign https://brid.gy/tumblr/andthenitcametotheend.tumblr.com up for bridgy? i can't, the owner has to
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Schnitz yeah right
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snarfed oh wait nm, they already did
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snarfed confused
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snarfed btw you can also send webmentions with http://mention-tech.appspot.com/ , https://telegraph.p3k.io/ , or curl
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Schnitz alright thanks for letting me know. I'm still not totally sure whether a template author really has control over what superfeedr parses or not
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Schnitz template author within tumblr
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snarfed did you find superfeedr's parsing docs?
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Schnitz snarfed: only this: http://documentation.superfeedr.com/schema.html#json so far
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Schnitz snarfed: and this _kinda_ suggest its picking up Atom / RSS from Tumblr
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snarfed yeah, i believe it
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snarfed i looked at your http://belp.audio/rss . not pretty, but the content is there
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Schnitz snarfed: exactly... thanks for bearing with me, same estamited guess
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Schnitz snarfed: So, if its picking up the RSS, and the content is there, why isn't it showing up properly in bridgy?
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Schnitz Snarfed: Maybe it all working properly and there was some untrackable one-off problem. I will do the test post now and wait if the webmention gets called, BRB
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Schnitz AH!
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Schnitz IT doens't even show it in the RSS!
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Schnitz here's is the web view, it has the URL in the message body: http://belp.audio/post/136220381077/webmention-bridgy-test
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Schnitz And look at the RSS, the URL is missing: http://belp.audio/rss ... not even in the source
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Schnitz so thats why Brid.gy doesn't find any URL for webmentions
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Schnitz That sucks
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Schnitz On the other hand this post: http://axyl.us/post/38487210139/2012-link-dump shows up nicely in bridgy and is in RSS fully present
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Schnitz However the description tag of RSS all the HTML is escaped
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Schnitz Either tumblr changed the way RSS feeds are generated since 2012, OR, RSS feed generation is controllable within tumblr on a per theme-basis
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Schnitz snarfed: thanks, its now clear its a problem within Tumblr how RSS feeds get generated, nothing to do with superfeedr or brid.gy
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Schnitz snarfed: but on a completely different aspect, wouldn't it be more Indie Web friendly if brid.gy would actually not rely on superfeedr's RSS representation of Tumblr, but actually grab it off the HTML version that can be properly enriched with h-entries?
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Schnitz ops
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Schnitz thats bogus
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Schnitz brid.gy should use the h-entries off the website
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Schnitz IMHO
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Schnitz oh my god... I just found a 'Truncate RSS' feed button within Tumblr, it was activated, it randomly stripped down the rss description content, including URLs, jeeesus
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Schnitz now it should work
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: would be good to document that on /Tumblr
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: Definitely man definitely! I'm right now fully exhausted be the levels of bugfixing in getting this whole tumblr indie web integration to work... the tumblr section on IndieWebCamp is totally misleading... need to write that from scratch
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KartikPrabhu sure! go for it. might help the next person :)
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: Man, I will do this for sure! However, tomorrow or later maybe, I need a break now :-)
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KartikPrabhu yup! congrats on getting it working
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Schnitz thanks man, it appeared a lot easier at first, some real pitholes...
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: Can I send you a webmention URL from within my tumblr now for testing, too?
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Schnitz I've already sent Tantek one...
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Schnitz It takes like another hour before this is processed :-)
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KartikPrabhu sure. this is my test note for such things: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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Schnitz thanks... here is the web view: http://belp.audio/post/136220381077/webmention-bridgy-test ... and the rss has the URLs too, http://belp.audio/post/136220381077/webmention-bridgy-test/rss ... so brid.gy should parse this correctly in like a hour and it would be great if you could try and like or comment in any way back, I can then see how that works (or not) :-)
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KartikPrabhu will keep an eye out
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Schnitz Excellent, thanks so much man
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KartikPrabhu judas priest Tumblr puts so much crap in the <head>
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snarfed Schnitz: no need to depend on other people, you can webmention yourself! just link to one of your other posts, then send the webmention with curl or http://mention-tech.appspot.com/ or https://telegraph.p3k.io/ or whatever
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: yup :-) great blog BTW... like your SVG investigation... the SVS 1.2 spec has my name on it... wanted to check that out too...
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Schnitz snarfed: all good :-) thanks, I was kinda lost. All should work now
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KartikPrabhu thanks!
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Schnitz snarfed: I learned that there is this really harmful 'Truncate RSS' button inside that basically destroys your indie web integration (if you know that the RSS is taken by superfeedr / bridgy)... that was good to find it. I will warn others thru our Wiki, later... so thanks for troubleshooting this with me, was worth it!
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snarfed Schnitz: i saw
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snarfed you're welcome!
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Schnitz :-)
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snarfed and you're right, it would be more "pure" indieweb for bridgy to fetch and parse blog post h-entries itself...but in practice it would be more work for very little benefit (if any), so it's not a high priority
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@rrrrrrrix http://notes.whatthefuck.computer/ I made an indieweb shortnotes page using Emacs Org-mode; Going to start transitioning my entire blog to this, maybe. (twitter.com/_/status/682011787332419586)
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Schnitz snarfed: oh wow, thanks for this acknowledgement! No worries, I know this all work and I'm not complaining AT ALL, sometimes I'm just vocal and need to say these things directly ... :-)
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Schnitz AND MOST OF THE TIME, I'm wrong too :-)... thats how you learn, right? :-)
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: you have not seen how much we have pestered snarfed! ;)
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Schnitz Hahaha... :-)
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snarfed lol
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Schnitz Its totally nuts wanting to get Tumblr to be your Indie Web friend in the very first place, so... but I thought that was a kinda nice challenge and might encourage some other non-involved people later, maaaaybe.
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KartikPrabhu it is important to have indieweb support on Wordpress and Tumblr so that people don't need to build their own site from scratch
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KartikPrabhu so it is good that people are doing that
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GWG KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 124 karma
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: alright, before I earn another Karma Point I'll try and update the wiki with all these latest lessons learned NOW before I forget them!
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: you're mention showed up: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te#response-mentions
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Schnitz oh wow lemme check!
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Schnitz AWESOME!
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Schnitz very ncie, makes my day :-) ... webmentions integrated into my tumblr by just dropping URL into the rich text area / Posting box... nice! The masses will love this...
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KartikPrabhu well my reply shows up on Disqus on your post! sweet
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belp.audio edited /Tumblr (+640) "/* Add webmention support */" (view diff)
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: oh wow again, lemme check
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Schnitz what do you think of this, for now, BTW? https://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#Add_webmention_support
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: oh yeah I really does work both ways now, fantastic! http://belp.audio/post/136220381077/webmention-bridgy-test
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Schnitz is happy chicken
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: the writeup looks good
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: great, thanks for letting me know :-)
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KevinMarks_ is there a way to tell that tumblr has truncated your rss?
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KevinMarks_ also unmung.com does RSS/Atom to h-feed
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Schnitz_ Hey Kevin
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Schnitz_ Yes, of course, as reported https://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#Add_webmention_support
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KevinMarks_ not as a user, as someone parsing it?
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Schnitz_ KevinMarks: I absolutely got confused by that, my RSS was truncated. I found that. Then it worked... OH
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Schnitz OH OK
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Schnitz KevinMarks_: smart! Yes there is
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Schnitz But thats quite messy
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KevinMarks_ with Atom you should get summary vs content, whereas with RSS they're both description
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Schnitz you would have to look at the description tag in the rss, and check whether every content has '...' at the end, thats what tumblr does
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Schnitz but as I say thats rather messay
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Schnitz HEy Tantek
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tantek hey Schnitz I like what you've done with the theme :)
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Schnitz tantek: oh wow thanks... r u sure? :-)
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Schnitz it feels all in all still like a bit of a hack... but hey, it works
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tantek welcome to the club :D
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KevinMarks_ hm, ending in … is a useful hint - I think WP does that too
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tantek ok I'm off to watch Tomorrowland (again) to get more inspiration.
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Schnitz KevinMarks_: Where you thinking of having some auto-detect to test whether RSS feeds are truncated by Tumblr ?
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Schnitz tantek: jeesus. Have fun :-)
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KevinMarks_ OTOH ending in … is a style of tweeting too
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Schnitz but wait
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Schnitz tantek: did you get my webmention?
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KevinMarks_ well, that may be a thing for brid.gy to warn you about.
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tantek Schnitz: I'm not displaying my webmentions yet - I'm queueing them at webmention.io
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Schnitz KevinMarks_: oh yeah, that would be super nice... However, if someone touches brid.gy, I would actually recomment trying to implement h-entries instead of rss
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GWG tantek: How many do you think you have queued?
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Schnitz tantek: oh wow ok... dogfeeding not yet, i see
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Schnitz tantek: just kidding dude :-) Have fun watching tomorrowland man, enjoy! :-)
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tantek GWG, I don't have an easy way to count or estimate that, but since Bridgy started backfeeding @t mentions, I'm going to guess 10s of thousands
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tantek Schnitz: it's in my Working On list - just not my top priority. It's ok for everyone to have different priorities for their own sites.
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Schnitz tantek: of course ! I was joking, really
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Schnitz tantek: 2 days ago you wanted me to implement all this stuff like immediately. Well I did. So! :-)
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tantek Schnitz: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On :)
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tantek Schnitz: 2 days ago I wanted you to document your itches and go through them :)
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Schnitz I'm itching soi badly I need a shower first
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tantek lol
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Schnitz ;)
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Schnitz BTW how do I like know if a Indie Web Site has webmentions installed? There should maybe a lil logo campaign or so
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Schnitz Now that I have all this stuff running I would like to walk around the Indie Web and spread Web Mentions... like you do in any new social media system, explore, and follow wildly
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tantek Schnitz: logos for plumbing are an antipattern
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Schnitz I agree
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Schnitz still
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tantek just like all the orange RSS chicklet nonsense led to people clicking on them and getting back gibberish XML
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Schnitz yeah BUT that was bullshit
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tantek Schnitz: web mention discovery is part of the spec. that's how you discover it
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Schnitz I can't teach tumblr that
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tantek that's not the point
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tantek assume all existing silos will ignore all this tech
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tantek we patch them and make proxies purely for legacy compat
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tantek bootstrapping until we can ignore them
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Schnitz absolutely
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Schnitz totally
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Schnitz no worries
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tantek so don't bother trying to evangelize any silos
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Schnitz again
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tantek it is nearly a total waste of time
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Schnitz no no I just want to meet new people on the Indie Web
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tantek Schnitz: start with /irc-people ;)
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Schnitz Like I sent you a web mention
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Schnitz Tantek, and you're not following / responding to it
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tantek but I am not new
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Schnitz luckily I had Kartik
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tantek so that's disconnected from your use-case
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Schnitz he did so, and then I know, AH, it worked
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tantek for new people, just start pinging people on /irc-people
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Schnitz yeah now I just want traffic
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tantek lol
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Schnitz c'mon
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Schnitz its like a new toy
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tantek that sounds like marketing / sales :P
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Schnitz it needs a test-drive
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Schnitz no no ... thats the SOCIAL part about Social Media right?
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tantek why? I think you missed the point; it's for your own use.
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Schnitz get in touch with people
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Schnitz Whut?
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tantek you post to your own site, people get in touch with you
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tantek it's not for attention-whoring
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tantek that's not til generation 4 :P
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Schnitz aaahhh no no this is kinda philosophical
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Schnitz it made me look thru Kartik site
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tantek you're not a teenager craving attention with selfies
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Schnitz I found about cool stuff
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tantek aka "traffic"
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Schnitz tantek: I AM A TEENAGER CRAVING FOR ATTENTION!
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Schnitz No seriously! This is FUN!
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Schnitz I see no problem!
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Schnitz One can be both serious and decent but also like fan-girlish and just have with this
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Schnitz just have fun with this
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Schnitz those 2 mode to back and forth, its about moods
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Schnitz :-)
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Schnitz This is truly interesting... I totally understand your position. However, look at for example folks in the music industry, even Indie area. Still, there, you have to do some very active outreach work. And thats ok. People don't consider that offensive of childish, its OK
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Schnitz So, now that I'm on the Indie Web, would nice to have like old Yahoo style 'cool links' and just get in touch with people, pro-actively...
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Schnitz No worries, not gonna go spam anyone... would just got to know who is actively checking / commenting / replying on web mentions right now, maybe even outside this irc-circle... but I may be jumping ahead, no problem :-)
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tantek Schnitz, plenty of people are, everyone on *.withknown.com for example
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Schnitz Tantek: OK thanks for the hint... /irc-people really also is a good start, will take some time to look up some too
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tantek plenty of people in Germany too
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Schnitz tantek: that would interesting... but not way to pinpoint them down, is there?
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tantek see the timezones in /irc-people ;)
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Schnitz its kinda interesting... every SILO has this sort of 'scope' ... you have this 'space' you can somehow search thru... with what is happening here, the free web becomes a social media platform, and there is no real Google or so to Search for People related to you or so, you see what I mean? This mustn't be, but its kinda natural to think about this, and a kinda new thing... like how do you...
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Schnitz ...find people 'close' to you?
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Schnitz timezones are a good filter, indeed :-)
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: the way I find new people is following some people on a reader and then seeing what they reply to/like etc... and go from there to adding more people
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KartikPrabhu like the way I found out about IRC was becasue I was following adactio's blog
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Schnitz interesting
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Schnitz which reader do you use BTW?
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KartikPrabhu s/IRC/Indieweb
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: like the way I found out about Indieweb was becasue I was following adactio's blog
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KartikPrabhu I use Feedly but not a big fan
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KartikPrabhu it has some annoying quirks
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Schnitz still a good insight
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Schnitz thank you
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Schnitz Do the people all have indie web principles... or do you have to check then first whether they have, say, webmention installed, with your approach?
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KartikPrabhu you have to check. But if someone's blog does not have webmention but has a comment form I manually syndicate my reply anyway
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KartikPrabhu see this reply to a Wordpress blog with no webmention: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-oxford-abc-conference
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KartikPrabhu it is "shared on" the original blog manually
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KevinMarks_ I get webmentions on my homepage…
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KartikPrabhu and I also copied back a reply to my comment manually ;)
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Schnitz yes, very interesting thanks
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KevinMarks_ also, if i get round to finishing it, mention-tech will buffer webmentions for arbitrary sites
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Schnitz KevinMarks_: thats good to know
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KevinMarks_ at the moment it doesn't fetch them efficiently
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Schnitz Of course there are many ways to handle this. What makes me /Romantic/ is the idea of not using a reader, but just browsing the web, all personal homepages / sites / blos, and getting full social media features automatically when you like / reply / repost
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Schnitz s/blos/blogs
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Loqi Schnitz meant to say: Of course there are many ways to handle this. What makes me /Romantic/ is the idea of not using a reader, but just browsing the web, all personal homepages / sites / blogs, and getting full social media features automatically when you like / reply / repost
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: ideally yes
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KevinMarks_ KNown has a plugin for firefox that does something liek that
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: alright then thats the same vision, perfect, good to sync this. I know this is FAR away right now, but it would be still be a good thing to have a nucleus of this where you can just walk thru a bit...
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: the challenge then it to build in a /reader into your own site so you get updates from people you want to follow. and maybe a browser plugin so you can easily like/reply to any post on the web
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KartikPrabhu see /indie-action for example
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: yes exactly, that is missing too
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KevinMarks_ well, you can use woodwind as a reader
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KartikPrabhu similarly /woodwind is a h-feed reader which could be run on your own site if you are into python code
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KartikPrabhu damn 2 secs ! ;)
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KevinMarks_ https://reader.kylewm.com/
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Schnitz :-)
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Schnitz I think completely w/o reader would be really beautiful, but I admit I don't see it how it would work 100%
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Schnitz basically the duality of most social media system between posting and writing to some extent seems always kinds unnatural
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Schnitz s/kinds/kind of
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Loqi Schnitz meant to say: basically the duality of most social media system between posting and writing to some extent seems always kind of unnatural
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KevinMarks_ well, fb, twitter, tumblr, wp all have readers too; integrated is a common pattern
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Schnitz KevinMarks_: absolutely. But they mostly have a shared standard stylesheet / CSS then
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Schnitz like this is the one thing, the personal expressiveness, I miss with readers
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Schnitz why not have everything on the web post in their style / layout / whatever
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Schnitz and still be able to aggregate / strucute somehow
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KartikPrabhu i only use reader for notification, I always read the original web page
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Schnitz s/strucute/structure
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Loqi Schnitz meant to say: and still be able to aggregate / structure somehow
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Schnitz KartikPrabhu: thanks great
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Schnitz s/thanks/thats
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Loqi Schnitz meant to say: KartikPrabhu: thats great
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KartikPrabhu becuase I missed the individuality of sites too
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Schnitz right full agreement
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KartikPrabhu in fact I sometimes have custom css per post so I would like people to see the original! :)
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Schnitz yes of course... thats really great. That is something CSS and also SVG is meant for, decoration of your post on the fly, telling stories
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Schnitz and this is where we are touching the area of entertainment, and there is a industry, or a human need, a big demand, for great nicely presented stories to be told on the web, not just standardized text posts
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Schnitz alright, thanks so much for all this today, very inspring... I'll go crash now :-)
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu guten nacht!
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Schnitz Dankeschön, ebenso :-)
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KartikPrabhu what is quotation?
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Loqi A quotation is a type of post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation
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marcthiele Hello from Krefeld, Germany.
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marcthiele Question: do I have a chance to see in my webmentions, that bridgy sends, if it is part of a conversation?
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marcthiele Reason for asking is, that here for example (http://marcthiele.com/notes/the-botanist-gimlet) I see my own messages as part of the mentions. Somehow it would be nice to visually show that these are replies or part of a certain conversation.
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petermolnar marcthiele you'll probably need to take a look at "fragmentions" and "salmentions"
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Schnitz hello
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marcthiele Thanks, petermolnar. Will have a look at it.
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petermolnar wrong room marcthiele
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petermolnar :)
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marcthiele ;) Sorry. Too long ago since we used irc with our C64 ;)
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petermolnar oh, now that's hardcore :D
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belp.audio edited /User:Belp.audio/MyTumblr (+3359) "/* BELP's User Experience with Tumblr & The Indie Web */" (view diff)
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belp.audio edited /Tumblr (+128) "/* Implementation Notes */" (view diff)
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Schnitz back
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Schnitz Hey snarfed
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snarfed hi Schnitz!
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snarfed marcthiele: petermolnar: actually, to render threaded comments, you just need to match the comments' u-in-reply-tos and u-urls
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petermolnar true, I think I've overcomplicated it in my head
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snarfed ie your comment's source page would be in-reply-to your post, but it would also have an in-reply-to pointing to another comment's u-url
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snarfed here's example code (i think): https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention-for-comments
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snarfed woo multi-photo posse! https://twitter.com/snarfed_org/status/682241207540420608
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@snarfed_org test foo bar (http://localhost/?p=12656) [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/682241207540420608)
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aaronpk nice!
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Schnitz snarfed: awesome!
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Schnitz hi arronpk
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aaronpk good morning
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Schnitz good evening :-)
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aaronpk today I am hoping to be able to start importing content to my new site
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Schnitz cool, import from where?
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aaronpk my current site
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Schnitz ah ok
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Schnitz after getting it all to work for me on my side I'm kinda lazy today, tweaking, and writing about it: https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Belp.audio/MyTumblr
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Schnitz is taking a break, cu later
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GWG Greetings fellow independent webbers
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Schnitz tantek: morning... great foto of that hot chocolate, the background fits so nicely into my all new indie web presence, I had to reblog! http://belp.audio
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tantek Schnitz: oops I didn't have a chance yet to post it on my own site!
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Schnitz GWG: Viva la revolucion, fellow comrad!
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tantek working on making that flow easier
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Schnitz tantek: err sure... go fot it. Good morning, and nice foto :-)
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tantek Schnitz: ah I see what's going on. you saw it on my Tumblr which just collects stuff from other silos (per PESETAS)
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GWG Schnitz, the revolution will be POSSEd.
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tantek GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 135 karma
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Schnitz tantek: yup
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GWG I've decided that, if I want to deploy by Friday, I need to start testing and big fixing now. So scope reduced for now.
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Schnitz GWG: sounds like a sound decision
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GWG That is after I spent two weeks bogged down in design contemplation
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Schnitz yeah I know how this goes
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Schnitz sometimes you need to make things clearer and simple, and give yourself a break with all the achievement, otherwise it never finishes
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Schnitz decided to take a bath now... because of the Itches, you know
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GWG So I am keeping an updated version of the design that I had and will move from there in the future. The backend improvements do count.
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GWG Note to self, update itch list
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Schnitz GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 136 karma
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GWG I need to get activity post kinds working or I'll break acegiak's site.
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GWG I adapted the play type design I added at her request to a new read post.
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tantek Schnitz: ok photos posted to my own site :D
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GWG The Post UI I use for listen, read, jam, watch and play is pretty much identical.
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Schnitz Tantek: great, this would be the use case where it would be great if you had webmentions working the way Kartik does it, that when I reblog / post your foto on my tumblr I could include the original URL of that post on Tanktek.com and there one would see that I mentioned / reposted this on my tumblr
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Schnitz Tantek: like here, see bottom of the past. I think this is really nice
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Schnitz s/past/page
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Loqi Schnitz meant to say: Tantek: like here, see bottom of the page. I think this is really nice
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Schnitz Tantek: but no worries, I totally see and understand that we all have different priorities and ways to approach or structure this .-)
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Schnitz BTW, looking at my automatically sent webmentions via bridgy https://brid.gy/tumblr/belp.audio it would be nice if our Wiki IndieWebCamp had webmention support similar to how Kartik does it. Maybe it does and I didn't get it :-)
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aaronpk the wiki shows webmentions in here, but not on the wiki itself
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aaronpk although come to think of it, i haven't seen any in here in a while
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Schnitz aaronpk: right!
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Loqi test
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aaronpk huh
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aaronpk oh my
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aaronpk I never set up the queue processor as a system task so last time the server restarted it never came back :-(
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[snarfed] ops++
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[snarfed] ops--
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Loqi ops has 1 karma
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Loqi ops has -1 karma
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[snarfed] lol
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[snarfed] concurrency++
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Loqi concurrency has 1 karma
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[snarfed] transactions++
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Loqi slow down!
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[snarfed] concurrency--
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aaronpk brace for impact
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Schnitz haha
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Loqi hehe
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Schnitz forgot to send the link to Kartiks example, I really like how he displays webmentions (at the bottom the page): https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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[snarfed] aww memories of bridgy's invite floods
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aaronpk i think i just cleared it up, let's see if this works now
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[snarfed] Schnitz KartikPrabhu, although doh, a few of the webmentions on that page show security holes :P
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Schnitz aaronpk: is it working?
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aaronpk should be. just gotta wait for a webmention now
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Schnitz aaronpk: have you sent one? shall I send one (to a Wiki page I presume)?
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aaronpk go for it
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jedahan is there a nice explanation of the difference between federated and distributed?
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jedahan or is it just a small degree from one to the other
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aaronpk what is federated?
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Loqi federation in the context of the indieweb refers to services and features on indieweb sites that work directly with other indieweb sites peer-to-peer, without being bottlenecked by any kind of centralized service or silo https://indiewebcamp.com/federated
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jedahan what is distributed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "distributed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10AZ
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jedahan interesting, so here, the conversation is about federation. cool
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aaronpk what is monoculture?
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Loqi Monoculture refers to the antipattern of one piece of software dominating (or trying to dominate) its field, often by being limited to communicating with other instances of the same codebase https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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aaronpk more often talking about "distributed" systems leads to monoculture
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jedahan like cjdns?
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jedahan ahh
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aaronpk i am not familiar with that
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aaronpk a system can be distributed without supporting federation
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jedahan federation is more about interoperability with other systems, than a kind of topology
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jedahan ?
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aaronpk i.e. the same code base running on physically different computers is distributed, but is not federated (see /federated for more details on what federations means)
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aaronpk yeah
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jedahan i always imagine in my head distributed being more topologically flat and peer-to-peer than federated. but I like the clear definitions you have given, even if it messes with my previous visualization of it all
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Schnitz aaronpk: yup gone out: http://belp.audio/post/136276178197/tumblr-indie-web
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Schnitz Looking at my brid.gy table, we might be lucky and its being picked up very soon. Or we just missed it and need to wait 2-3 hours :-)
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Schnitz https://brid.gy/tumblr/belp.audio
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aaronpk Schnitz: cool, also there's a 60-90 second delay on seeing them in here
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Schnitz aaronpk: just call it a suggestion, I still very much believe having mentions appear in the wiki would be great selfdogfeeding and show / demonstrate the whole thing and also community involvement / traffic / buzz around this
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tantek what is decentralized?
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jedahan well, i'm having a bit of fun building a federated stack, what i got so far: power? (wind/solar?) -> wifi signals (nyc meshnet) -> routing (qmp/batman) -> dns (namecoin) -> content-addressing (ipns) -> content resolution (ipfs) -> content (tiddlywiki? or something that supports webmention i guess?)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "decentralized" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10A_
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tantek huh that's pretty funny
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jedahan theres a bit of fuzziness on all the layers, but i think so far the only federated one is the wifi signals
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jedahan also I guess if i install a dns proxy to the namecoin service that acts like regular dns, would that be considered federated? as it plays nicely with others?
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tantek huh? how is wifi federated in any way whatsoever?
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tantek you lost me at namecoin ;)
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jedahan tantek well, mesh network isn't federated?
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tantek jedahan: never seen one work in practice, have heard lots of theory about it, and even rumors of some working
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jedahan tantek look up guifi in spain
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tantek a reliable mesh network would be great. curious what replaces DHCP
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jedahan thats the largest, most succesful one
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jedahan we are using their software in nyc
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jedahan so far we don't have that many nodes, but really just started getting traction this year
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jedahan https://nycmesh.net/
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tantek jedahan: are you in NYC?
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jedahan tantek ok so namecoin is just like, registering .bit tlds on a?the? blockchain/sidechain
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tantek jedahan: In my experience "just" should never be used in a sentence with "blockchain"
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jedahan so like, if people wanna lookup my website, they would right now need to be able to resolve namecoin, running namecoind which is um, a monoculture
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jedahan hehe
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jedahan well i did write a little PoC blockchain client a year or two ago for fun
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jedahan I understand its a bit beastly
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jedahan but if i made a normal DNS service, that anyone could use, and it would use my namecoind instance to lookup .bit tlds, then, I think that would fit in more with 'federated'
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jedahan as there are a ton of DNS options
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tantek is there a single SSID "name" for https://nycmesh.net/ ?
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tantek I don't remember seeing anything when I was roaming around Manhattan a couple of weeks ago.
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jedahan tantek I think its just NYCMesh-RANDOMCHARS
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tantek jedahan - huh, so joining them is not automatic then without client-software due to the RANDOMCHARS
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jedahan Actually thats a good thing to bring up - each node probably should have the same "NYCMesh" SSID
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jedahan I think each node should have 2-4 SSIDs
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jedahan first it has the meshing layer one, which is needed, called qmp
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jedahan thats encrypted
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jedahan between nodes and ad-hoc / point-to-point
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tantek jedahan: I'm no mesh network expert, but I do know wifi client usage well enough to know that having to pick a new SSID every time I move into/out of another SSID cloud would be annoying.
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jedahan then one generic one
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jedahan to avoid that issue
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tantek jedahan - interested in IndieWebCamp NYC 2016?
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jedahan then one generic one with a password, so that we are not cleartexting
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tantek we're looking at Jan 22-23 right now
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tantek see /Planning
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jedahan Um, very interested
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jedahan I will!
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tantek we're just about to pull the trigger on those dates based on preferences expressed so far
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jedahan We might have met when i was visiting the PNW a few years ago actually
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tantek GWG ^^^ hey another NYC person! (you two should meet)
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jedahan or maybe it was aaronpk
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jedahan i am so hazy
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aaronpk I think we met in portland maybe?
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tantek if only we had a microformat for that, for meeting people ;)
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jedahan we ate at some high-rise, and the chef came over and gave something special :D
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jedahan yeah aaronpk !
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jedahan I'm a bit older now TT
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jedahan Also, visited the homebrew computer club one time @mozilla
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jedahan not sure who I met there, but it was fun
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jedahan heh
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jedahan 'send me your twitter id' :-p
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tantek that was KevinMarks way to simplify discovering someone's web site
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jedahan irchandle2twitterid2websitelink I.E. twitter as DNS?
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KevinMarks yeah, I should make noterlive.com fill in a person from their hcard on their site too
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jedahan interesting, so for logging in, is there a technical or security reason for not redirecting to the page you logged in from, re: the wiki
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tantek it's a speech-based discovery protocol for domain names
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tantek since saying a Twitter handle, and understanding it, is often easier / more reliable than saying a domain name, and understanding it
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jedahan like, would you have to share with the provider what page you were on, for a callback?
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tantek it should redirect like that. aaronpk ?
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jedahan i mean i'm running ublock and https everywhere so its possible my setup just is doing all sorts of weird stuff too
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jedahan but i'd be happy to test it a bit more
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tantek I too am running ublock AND Noscript for that matter :)
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tantek weirdsetups++
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Loqi weirdsetups has 1 karma
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aaronpk yeah you should be redirected back to the wiki. if not, that's a weird bug
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Schnitz aaronpk: hey my webmention got sent, did it ever show up? https://brid.gy/tumblr/belp.audio
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aaronpk hmm looks like not yet :(
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jedahan.com edited /Planning (+195) "added my availability" (view diff)
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aaronpk now i'm confused what I broke
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Schnitz is off for dinner, be back in 1 hour
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Schnitz aaronpk: hmmm... good luck!
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jedahan.com created /jedahan (+30) "Redirected page to [[User:Jedahan.com]]" (view diff)
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jedahan aaronpk looks like ?returnto= is blank
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jedahan for my github-based login
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jedahan interesting, i wonder why my gravatar/username is not showing up the same as others...
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tantek hey jedehan, to create /Template:jedahan, take a look and copy/paste from e.g. /Template:aaronpk :)
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aaronpk strange, i will take a look
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jedahan oh, i see, the magic of microformats
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jedahan.com edited /User:Jedahan.com (+437) (view diff)
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jedahan.com edited /User:Jedahan.com (+10) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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jedahan hmm, i cannot hotlink an external image, it seems
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aaronpk you can, but you have the wrong syntax right now
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jedahan.com edited /User:Jedahan.com (+23) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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jedahan yeah i just figured out the right syntax but i need to resize it to be smaller
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tantek no resizing needed
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tantek the template does it
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tantek and mine uses an external image
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tantek see /Template:t
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jedahan.com edited /User:Jedahan.com (+5) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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jedahan.com created /Template:jedahan (+139) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|https://twitter.com/t/profile_image}}[[User:jedahan.com|Jonathan Dahan" target="_blank">User:jedahan.com|Jonathan" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/t/profile_image}}[[User:jedahan.com|Jonathan Dahan]]</span>"" (view diff)
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jedahan.com edited /Template:jedahan (+6) (view diff)
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jedahan ok, i need to slow down and read before making changes
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jedahan this is what happens when you only drink coffee once a week
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jedahan becomes super "effective"
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KevinMarks I wonder if hoder would set up HWC tehran? http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/29/irans-blogfather-facebook-instagram-and-twitter-are-killing-the-web
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KevinMarks hm, hoder.com is not resolving
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petermolnar hoder.ir
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petermolnar but apparently not receiving either webmentions, nor pingbacks
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petermolnar that guardian article is so far a rewording of the "The Web We Have to Save" article that was on medium via matter in July
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petermolnar but I haven't finished
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petermolnar (yet)
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GWG Did someone say NYC?
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jedahan GWG << is in brooklyn
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jedahan i mean me, not you
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jedahan well maybe you
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GWG is in Queens
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petermolnar KevinMarks re to the guardian article: yep, it's fuzzy-same of https://medium.com/matter/the-web-we-have-to-save-2eb1fe15a426#.cgth8ulhx and - sorry for potentially sounding rude - it's still an interesting article, but like nearly all the similars, it does not offer a how.
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petermolnar "I get things are bad, but what are we doing to fix it?"
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tantek petermolnar++ :D
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Loqi petermolnar has 10 karma
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petermolnar to be honest, I was surprised how much I liked Tomorrowland
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tantek same here
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Schnitz is back
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belp.audio edited /User:Jedahan.com (-42) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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Schnitz broken urls, minor fix, works now
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Schnitz soundcloud and indieweb, anyone?
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aaronpk what is soundcloud?
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Loqi SoundCloud is a silo for hosting/sharing/commenting on sounds and music https://indiewebcamp.com/SoundCloud
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aaronpk I thought Known had a plugin to POSSE to SoundCloud, but it's not mentioned on that page
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Schnitz oh thats interesting
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Schnitz Now that I'm kinda happy for now with my first itch: Tumblr <-> Indie Web, I will be looking into SC <-> Indie Web
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Schnitz aaronpk: our wiki documentation on Indie Web / SC is zero, AFAIK
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aaronpk sounds like a topic worth exploring then!
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Schnitz did I just get hired?
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Schnitz Yay!
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Loqi yay!
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Schnitz ;)
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kylewm Schnitz: Known does have a plugin https://github.com/idno/Soundcloud
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Schnitz checking...
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Schnitz interesting, thanks kylewm
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Schnitz lets see what disqus has to offer
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: messages?
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Schnitz Nope
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Schnitz hey Kartik
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Schnitz yeah SC is weird. Its so isolated.
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KartikPrabhu hi Schnitz
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: re: security holes in my webmentions. Yes those are tests from checkmentions and I have kept them there to remind me to fix them. I couldn't comeup with a solution last time I thought of it
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: since you are excited about webmentions here is something else that can be done with them: https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/marginalia #selfpromotion
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Schnitz OK I looked at the known stuff a bit its not what I would want, its about posting audio to SC from outside. Thats cool, but what would be interesting is the whole commenting / liking / etc. on soundcloud tracks to be indie web friendly... and there is nothing there, at all, to start with.
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Schnitz Kartik, cool! Reading now...
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KartikPrabhu maybe a file a bridgy feature request with https://developers.soundcloud.com/docs/api/guide#comments for api
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Schnitz Kartik: great idea! Also, marginalia / webmention, what an awesome idea!
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KartikPrabhu :)
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Schnitz Kartik: so just to get this right, you think its ok to file a brid.gy feature request pointing to that SoundCloud page / API? (ego too low issue)
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Schnitz poor snarfed, no?
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KartikPrabhu Schnitz: of course. The worst that could happen is it would be low priority for snarfed and kylewm
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KartikPrabhu i would check if someone has requested it first though
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Schnitz oh kylewm is also working on brid.gy, didn't know
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petermolnar or extend bridgy and create a pull request ;)
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Schnitz Yeah I'll check first and maybe I want to have another look on the web to be sure.... BUT, something tells me you're totally right, l need to get my webmentions into SC somehow and the place this would have to happen is brid.gy, or brid.gy delegating it off to some other service, like it already uses superfeedr for tumblr rss parsing
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Schnitz but I'm not aware of a service like disqus that relays comments etc. into SC commenting, also back and forth even, and never seens anything like it on SoundCloud, and I spent a lot time there
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snarfed Schnitz: sc has an api, so bridgy would do it directly
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Schnitz all social media interaction on SC, liking, commenting, etc. seems to originate purely from within SC ... never saw anything relayed from outside into it or vice versa, which is exactly what I would want
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snarfed like it does with all the other silos, at least for backfeed
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Schnitz aha
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KartikPrabhu SC also has a posting api so one could POSSE through bridgy publish
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Schnitz Kartik, yeah that I know, and have seen, yes
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snarfed Schnitz et al, here are instructions for adding a new silo like SC: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/#adding-a-new-silo
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snarfed happy to help anyone interesteed ramp up!
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Schnitz oh wow...
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petermolnar GWG I'm a bit afraid of what that "survey" (https://make.wordpress.org/core/2015/12/30/wordpress-4-5-whats-on-your-wishlist/) will result in
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[shaners] .
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Loqi [shaners]: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 12/27 at 9:04pm: what about "Autonomous" as a name? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-27/line/1451279091456
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[shaners] !tell tantek Haven’t read this yet, but looks like you’ll be interested. Re: /read http://www.vox.com/2015/12/29/10634416/reading-list-books
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG My guess?
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petermolnar "Any feature that runs slow is bad. Most companies who extend the page editor to the front side, outside the ADMIN are painful slow. Any speed gains in this area are big wins." maybe, just maybe, reduce javascript and drop most of the custom fonts in favour of svg, but I'm not going to reply this, it would only generate a flamewar.
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GWG petermolnar: I'm betting custom comment types are on the horizon this time
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petermolnar I wouldn't be surprised if the build-in wp comment system would either be turned off or replaced on the overwhelming majority of the sites
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petermolnar by the way, I was on my way to Grav from WordPress... then it turned out that a few thousand posts and images is a bit heavy for Grav for now, so still on WP :/
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GWG petermolnar: They did a lot in 4.4 for comment cleanup. I need to look at a lot of those new changes for opportunities.
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kylewm.com edited /Goodreads (+230) "/* POSSE to Goodreads */ add me" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Goodreads (+92) "/* API for Goodreads */ mention silo.pub" (view diff)
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