2016-01-08 UTC
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# 00:07 kylewm !tell jgmac1106 non-dev people working on their personal website are absolutely welcome; and actually the non-dev perspective is invaluable for building stuff we want to be usable by people who aren't primarily programmers :)
# 00:07 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 02:01 kylewm either Ashburn, VA or an island in the carribean depending on whom you ask
# 02:03 kylewm it's obviously not hurting anything, i'm just curious how that could happen
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# 03:47 aaronpk huh, i'm having trouble finding an example of a blog where the author info appears at the bottom. all the ones on /irc-people i've checked so far don't actually show any author info!
# 03:50 aaronpk hmm gregor's is interesting, just a tiny picture and name next to the date
# 03:50 GWG KevinMarks: You are quoting Maimonides. I'm intrigued.
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# 06:04 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 08:57 acegiak you are making me want to take the easy route to solve this problem
# 08:58 acegiak as in remove wordpress? or just use PHP to interact with the http request directly instead of through wordpress's hooks, which is what's tempting me
# 09:00 acegiak God, at some point I need to address the fact that it's running like ubuntu 12.04 and I can't upgrade it the normal way at the moment >.<
# 09:22 bear yep, willing to help with stuff like that
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# 09:23 acegiak I think at some point I need to bring the server down and do a fresh server install really
# 09:23 bear if me spending an hour or so on your server helps with 1) security and 2) indieweb -- then yes
# 09:23 acegiak well when I know where I want to start I'll get in touch
# 09:26 cweiske acegiak, sounds like making it do normal upgrades again would be a good start
# 09:28 acegiak well that's what I was saying about doing a full OS reinstall
# 09:28 cweiske but it might very possibly be fixable without reinstalling
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# 09:44 bear oh - I always forget about this: dpkg --get-selections
# 09:44 bear that is much more saner than dpkg --list to build the list
# 09:45 bear now that I force myself to use fabric or ansible, I rarely have to recreate the list of installed items
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# 10:04 petermolnar !tell GWG WordPress Feature Plugin Chat: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 2100 UTC - I'll try to attend and see if pushing webmentions is possible, backed with the w3c draft now
# 10:05 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 15:21 GWG petermolnar: You think they'd go for it
# 15:22 WeStyle im live asia, good night
# 15:22 GWG petermolnar: Are we doing per spec? The webmentions plugin doesn't do async.
# 15:23 WeStyle i dont understand
# 15:24 WeStyle indiewebcamp, what is it?
# 15:24 Loqi IndieWebCamps are brainstorming and building events where IndieWeb creators gather semi-regularly to meet in person, share ideas, and collaborate on IndieWeb design, UX, & code for their own sites https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebcamp
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# 15:24 WeStyle @GWG yes, thanks @petermolnar , @Loqi
# 15:25 GWG "Upon receipt of a POST request containing the source and target parameters, the receiver SHOULD queue and process the request asynchronously to prevent DoS attacks. There are three possible responses to the request, depending on how the receiver processes it. "
# 15:25 GWG The webmention plugin does not queue and process. It processes immediately
# 15:25 singpolyma GWG: async is recommended (SHOULD) for the reasons stated (prevent DoS). not a requirement
# 15:26 WeStyle i startup in asia
# 15:26 WeStyle a fashion social
# 15:26 GWG singpolyma: For a feature plugin for WordPress, shouldn't it?
# 15:27 WeStyle you're welcome, in Vietnam
# 15:27 petermolnar receive, note in DB; meanwhile have cron hook, cron hook processes external call
# 15:28 WeStyle @GWG: i send add friend facebook for you
# 15:29 petermolnar the webmention is a receiver, which just creates a note of being poked in comments
# 15:29 GWG petermolnar: I was just suggesting we adjust it if there is a feature plugin.
# 15:30 GWG Semantic Linkbacks pulls it again
# 15:30 GWG So there are currently two pulls per webmention
# 15:31 WeStyle you say wordpress?
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# 15:32 WeStyle oh, now i understand
# 15:32 petermolnar GWG I don't think it pull, at least I can't find it in the code; where do you see that?
# 15:34 GWG I'm saying it pulls the HTML from the remote source twice
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# 15:35 GWG I meant, how to avoid the double pull.
# 15:36 GWG The last version of this would add the remote_source to the comment data, to be available to the preprocess_comment filter. The second part of the change would give comment_post access to the comment_data
# 15:36 GWG You'd be able to pull, preprocess, and post process without requesting the HTML twice
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# 15:37 GWG It would allow a rewrite of semantic linkbacks to update pingbacks and webmentions before they hit the database instead of after
# 15:37 GWG It would not, however, solve the async issue
# 15:37 petermolnar GWG I'm not sure this will fly; where is the HTML coming for the pingback data?
# 15:38 GWG The pingback function already pulls it. It just doesn't pass it to the filter
# 15:39 petermolnar right, but the webmentions plugin implements it's own endpoint, and I thought it does not use the pingback, especially since pingback is xml-rpc based
# 15:39 GWG petermolnar: But it could also be set to pass the same data through.
# 15:39 petermolnar I disagree with you on the approach for this; I'd store the received POST and cron the HTML pull
# 15:41 GWG The goal of async is to prevent DDOS.
# 15:41 GWG As I said earlier, it isn't in the current webmention design.
# 15:42 GWG What I think would make sense is to abstract out the delivery mechanism from the processing mechanism and have pingbacks and webmentions processed by the same code
# 15:42 GWG But the pingback spec doesn't allow for async, I believe
# 15:44 GWG The only acceptable responses to a ping are for it to be processed.
# 15:44 petermolnar I honestly believe the best 'async' you can get out of WP is via cron
# 15:44 GWG petermolnar: I'm not disagreeing.
# 15:45 GWG petermolnar: I'm just suggesting it run through the same code. They won't deprecate it. You'd have better luck deprecating trackbacks.
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# 16:08 tantek GWG, when you have a moment, could use your help with some IndieWebCamp NYC organizing / planning things
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# 16:12 aaronpk then we just need one in February and we're booked one a month through June!
# 16:13 GWG Just don't make it the weekend of the 5/6 of March.
# 16:13 tantek February was thinking of Florida if we can find a venue / sponsor
# 16:13 GWG tantek: You had a question re NYC though
# 16:14 GWG aaronpk: Tantek wants to go to Disneyworld.
# 16:16 tantek aaronpk - can you take the lead on locking down dates for IWC MIT?
# 16:16 tantek i.e. double-check with rhiaro and sandro for space etc.
# 16:17 GWG I like any proposal that involves a Friday and a Saturday. But I can roll with the punches
# 16:17 tantek (I think the dates were fairly constrained already, so we should be able to figure out MIT quickly)
# 16:19 GWG aaronpk: Are you going to try to come to NYC?
# 16:19 tantek aaronpk: yes, there's been interest for Florida, and February is a cold month so Florida would be nice then. We can also do later in the year if we can't get a venue etc. in time.
# 16:20 GWG aaronpk: I'll plan to bring my own toys then
# 16:21 tantek people are already buying plane tickets for March!
# 16:21 aaronpk okay. we need to nail down the w3c meeting first tho right?
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# 16:47 GWG I have the times from IWC/MIT though. I'll adjust to an 8:30 start
# 16:54 GWG tantek: How about this for the schedule? I fused it together
# 16:55 tantek and then shifting the times earlier for the earlier start time
# 16:57 tantek aaronpk, perhaps you could make an indie event for IWC NYC and then RSVP yourself as a maybe ?
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# 17:05 aaronpk i really need to make a nice even creation UI in Quill
# 17:10 GWG I will in a bit. I need to run an errand and eat lunch. Then I shall return
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# 17:31 aaronpk yeah i'm looking forward to the increase character limit on twitter
# 17:32 aaronpk once you start replying to threads with 2-3 people in them, you run out of space to say anything
# 17:34 aaronpk i'm in the middle of a thread and i can only get one sentence in per tweet
# 17:34 tantek and presto, you've just reinvented silo-email, but slower, and js;dr!
# 17:34 bear twitter will lose all value for me at larget character limites
# 17:34 aaronpk twitter DMs are already unlimited chars, so they took the first step to email already :P
# 17:34 bear as I consume it by glancing at a single line stream
# 17:35 tantek there is more incentive to be concise in dms / private messages
# 17:35 tantek whereas @-replies tend to be more argumentative
# 17:35 gRegorLove Yep, Twitter is like an ephemeral chat room with the internet for me. I don't want it to be a place where people post long-form content.
# 17:36 aaronpk it's interesting that IRC encourages even shorter number of chars per message, and posting a bunch of messages in a row is normal
# 17:36 gRegorLove I can not look at it for hours or days and don't feel obligated to "catch up"
# 17:36 aaronpk gRegorLove: I solved that problem by filtering twitter into IRC channels :P
# 17:37 bear there is a small handful of people who I will review their stream specifically
# 17:38 gRegorLove Yeah, I use lists for those I want to keep caught up with, just saying in general.
# 17:38 aaronpk yeah I'm not saying I support long-form writing on twitter, I just am struggling to actually say anything in the remaining 80 chars after a bunch of @-mentions
# 17:39 gRegorLove A friend suggested they at least not make usernames count towards the character limit. I think that's a bad idea for spam and harassment, though.
# 17:39 bear all of the moves twitter is making remind me of the changes facebook has made
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# 17:43 tantek doing a manual photo repost without any special treatment for now
# 17:45 Loqi A repost on the indieweb is a post that is purely a 100% re-publication of another post. The act of reposting is an umbrella term that covers the general practice of republishing another post typically on the same service or silo, but more and more across sites https://indiewebcamp.com/repost
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# 17:49 tantek yet with Tumblr "reblogs", you can add more text to whatever is in the thing you are reblogging, and this is still considered a reblog
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# 17:55 petermolnar tantek I think as long as it contains everything from the source and is only expanded it could be considered a repost
# 17:56 tantek aaronpk - yeah - I was thinking that, hence citing the Tumblr example
# 18:02 tantek that's a one-off repost experiment, though I did markup the repost-of URL in my storage, so assuming I actually implement reposts, the appearance of that post will update automatically.
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# 18:04 tantek hey brianlove_swords - we're having an IWC NYC 1/22-23! You still in Brooklyn?
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# 18:07 bear is testing his micropub post + webmention sending automation....
# 18:09 tantek aaronpk: do you have a new ETA on your new site?
# 18:10 aaronpk I'm not sure. I'm really struggling with the CSS/design finishing touches. I'm also worried I'm going to hit some snags once I start importing my content.
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# 18:29 [kevinmarks] Re longer tweets, I think what they're actually doing is making text behave like images do now. A picture is worth 10,000 characters
# 18:31 [kevinmarks] If so, that could be a good thing, as it is closer to the note/article distinction we have in post type discovery
# 18:37 petermolnar but I honestly don't understand why is it good for X social network to add Y feature Z has; eventually they'll all become the same in different themes
# 18:38 tantek petermolnar: precisely what I predicted in my 2014 talk at Personal Democracy Forum
# 18:39 tantek where basically the silos have run out of ideas and are now just copying each other, and thus eliminating differentiation
# 18:40 tantek and that's the point, the silos turn into boring copies of each other
# 18:40 tantek we standardize their practices, thereby further commodifying the silos
# 18:40 tantek and once they're commodities, then anyone can compete on a UX level, and thus being distributed / federating becomes a noticeable advantage
# 18:43 tantek petermolnar, it takes no effort from us for the silos to erode their own advantages like that. however it provides us with opportunity. it's up to us to seize it.
# 18:51 GWG petermolnar, if you convince Wordpress to start a webmention feature plugin, who would lead the project team?
# 18:54 tantek GWG, my guess is that it would be met with skepticism due to their shutting down of pingback/trackback
# 18:54 petermolnar GWG that I don't know; which means that I'll postpone this and first talk to everyone involved
# 18:54 GWG tantek, a feature plugin can take several versions to be merged.
# 18:54 GWG I have been trying to get some pingback improvements in.
# 18:56 aaronpk oh that was way before chrismessina's hashtag suggestion!
# 18:58 tantek Oh: Loqi left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:54 am
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# 19:04 petermolnar if next time Loqi when dies, will he come back if I say "come back Loqi" or is that an aaronpk special, like sudo?
# 19:04 aaronpk but there is a secret button which will restart Loqi
# 19:04 aaronpk the problem is i need a bot in the channel for that to work
# 19:05 aaronpk i could try to script my IRC client so that at least if i'm inthe channel someone else can restart Loqi
# 19:11 tantek what we really need is /backfeed from Google News to our personal sites or any mention/inclusion of silo profiles like tantek/flickr or flickr/tantek
# 19:12 tantek wonders how Bridgy could do backfeed from Google News
# 19:13 kylewm maybe grep.io (julien's thing) instead of/in addition to Google News?
# 19:13 snarfed sounds like julien's idea a while back to have superfeedr send webmentions on behalf of all of web sites it tracks
# 19:13 snarfed grep.io looks interesting...it's basically google alerts?
# 19:14 kylewm yes I think so, when I tried out the beta, it didn't find much for indiewebcamp
# 19:15 aaronpk kylewm: i've been getting a TON of mentions for indieweb through grep.io
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# 19:20 tantek is considering implementing POSSE to Flickr via Bridgy Publish because of publication usage of his CC photos.
# 19:21 tantek does anyone POSSE to Flickr via Bridgy Publish and pass along *normal* word/phrase tags?
# 19:22 kylewm tantek: it looks like only person tags are supported, but i will fix that ASAP
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# 19:36 GWG gRegorLove, I think pfefferle would prefer it as an extension.
# 19:37 gRegorLove I'm shipping my ProcessWire webmention plugin with Vouch support, enabled by default. It can be disabled, though.
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# 19:37 aaronpk luckily vouch verification is super easy so it's not a huge deal to add it to a webmention receiver
# 19:37 aaronpk speaking of which, I need to add it to webmention.io!
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# 19:38 kylewm location should work on tweets now/again. I think I'd left something out of my last commit to granary
# 19:40 kylewm interesting, the grep.io posts are definitely pulling in things that subscribe via superfeedr. tantek's site, my site, and belp.audio
# 19:40 GWG gRegorLove, last week, people in here were telling me to split two functions in a plugin, now you are advocating for unity?
# 19:42 GWG Let people only install what they need vs let them install one thing that does everything
# 19:42 gRegorLove With Syndication Links I think the functionality is not related, and agree with tantek's suggestions that the rel-me should be a core feature of the IndieWeb plugin.
# 19:43 gRegorLove Webmention and Vouch are closely tied and make sense in one plugin, imo.
# 19:43 snarfed right. it's not that you want to always try for more plugins or fewer plugins. you want the appropriate number, with the appropriate features together or separate.
# 19:45 GWG Then what do I do with the hcard widget?
# 19:45 gRegorLove My thought with WordPress plugins is if most installed just Webmention plugin, then it took off, then there's spam problems, then they have to go back and install Vouch plugin.
# 19:47 kylewm I'd vote for separate plugins. Vouch is still experimental and many/most? people here do not use or support it
# 19:48 snarfed that seems like an argument to make it an opt in option, but not necessarily a separate plugin
# 19:48 gRegorLove To clarify, I'm suggesting the verification of received vouches be included. Not necessarily sending.
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# 19:50 kylewm snarfed: it looks like granary does not convert mf2 p-category to AS "tags" yet, think it makes sense for them to be objectType: "hashtag"?
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# 19:51 snarfed kylewm: definitely! we already do for most of the silos
# 20:07 kylewm I wonder how it should convert it if I published with <a href="https://kylewm.com/tags/indieweb" class="u-category">#indieweb</a>
# 20:08 aaronpk or, tagging it with whatever is at that URL. probably a person, could also be a venue
# 20:09 aaronpk regular tag values should always be strings, not URLs
# 20:09 kylewm gotcha, OK so granary might need to differentiate between categories that look like urls and those that don't
# 20:09 Loqi tags or tagging refers to categorizing or labeling content, your own or others (tag-reply), with words, phrases, names, or other information, optionally linked to specific people, events, locations, such as the practice of tagging posts being about certain people (person-tag), like tagging people or other items where (area-tag) they're depicted in a photo https://indiewebcamp.com/URL_tagging
# 20:13 snarfed or does mf2 allow mixing prefixes with vocab arbitrarily?
# 20:13 gRegorLove I'm still considering URL tagging for music vs namespace+tag. "http://mewsite.com" vs "artist:mew"
# 20:13 aaronpk but yeah the person-tag examples use "p-category h-card"
# 20:13 snarfed aaronpk: right, but that doesn't make it kosher :P
# 20:14 aaronpk the prefix isn't part of the parsed result, so it doesn't matter what prefix you use as long as the result is what you want
# 20:14 kylewm huh, I use u-category h-card on my person tags
# 20:17 GWG gRegorLove, in the sidebar of all posts
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# 22:09 KevinMarks rel="tag" says ignore the linktext, use the last bit of the URL so that is tricky compared to u-category
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# 23:12 tantek snarfed, aaronpk is right, it's the term after the parsing prefix that's part of the vocabulary
# 23:14 snarfed tantek: ok, sgtm. i guess it was a bit hard to grok that from reading http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 , since properties are all listed with their prefixes, and it includes language like "properties: (parsed as p- plain text unless otherwise specified)"
# 23:14 tantek snarfed, probably means we can make the docs better
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# 23:18 aaronpk yeah I agree the docs are misleading in that respect
# 23:18 aaronpk but it's a tough balance between including examples of the HTML you'd actually write vs what might be "technically" correct
# 23:20 snarfed aaronpk: totally! i wasn't looking at examples in this case though
# 23:21 snarfed i'll see if i can make some small language tweaks
# 23:24 snarfed just to confirm, some properties require certain prefixes, but others (e.g. category) support multiple...? and for those, the spec doesn't necessarily enumerate every possible/reasonable prefix for each property, but leaves it somewhat up to convention and best practice?
# 23:25 aaronpk it's more like if the value is a string, you're *probably* never going to use a u- prefix for it, but there's nothing actually stopping you from doing so
# 23:26 aaronpk <a href="string-value-here" class="u-property"> would result in {"property":["string-value-here"]}
but that's just weird
# 23:26 aaronpk similarly <time class="dt-url" value="http://example.com"> would be ridiculous but would work
# 23:27 tantek snarfed, no property requires a particular prefix per se, it's just that some properties only some (or one) prefix really makes sense to use in real world content.
# 23:27 KevinMarks it is something that makes gong form parsed back to html a little harder
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# 23:34 tantek thanks, that's good text. because it's a detail I'm going to move it to the end of that subsection
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