#indiewebcamp 2016-01-14

2016-01-14 UTC
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
GWG petermolnar: I still think using the existing table works better.
#
Loqi GWG: petermolnar left you a message 53 minutes ago: I've altered wp-webmentions-again; it now creates it's own table in the db to act as a queue, due to the lack of queue manager in WordPress; this way sending can be initiated from anywhere http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452726904184
#
Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 46 minutes ago: do you post RSVPs? go for it -> https://aaronparecki.com/events/2016/01/22/1/indiewebcamp and https://www.facebook.com/events/1041585595907655 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452727310912
#
GWG !tell tantek Not yet. I posted one proto RSVP, but not since
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
snarfed GWG: manual! :P
#
snarfed manual all the things
#
GWG snarfed: I know we differ on that
#
snarfed heh yes
#
GWG !tell petermolnar I'd still rather have a cron job work on items in the comment table with a special queued status.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
GWG snarfed: What would convince you to go automated?
#
snarfed GWG: i don't understand the question
#
snarfed GWG: you mean, to post automated RSVPs?
tantek joined the channel
#
GWG snarfed: I meant, for example, converting you to Post Kinds.
#
snarfed got me. i'm happy with my site.
#
snarfed i was thinking of a different question: if your site doesn't support post type X (e.g. RSVP), do you then suffer and never post Xes until you have code for them? which might take indefinitely long?
#
snarfed or do you post them manually (author the HTML by hand, etc) until if/when you have that code?
#
snarfed i obviously vote the latter, but that's just me :P
#
GWG snarfed: I would if I really wanted to.
#
snarfed cool! glad to hear it
#
GWG The truth is, I don't go to enough things worth RSVPing to.
#
GWG I'm not the social butterfly.
#
tantek GWG, worth doing another manual RSVP just to learn from it?
#
Loqi tantek: GWG left you a message 31 minutes ago: Not yet. I posted one proto RSVP, but not since http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452730145069
#
@AzurepathHQ If a CRM (or any B2B software application) doesn't allow you import or export your data at will, reconsider your options. #CRM #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/687436902560038912)
#
KartikPrabhu what is webmention?
#
Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
#
KartikPrabhu how are people doing the Step 7. here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention#Protocol_Summary i.e. "verifies that target in the webmention is a valid permalink on Aaron's blog" ?
#
KartikPrabhu well not on Aaron's but your own site
#
aaronpk webmention.io accepts anything for that step
#
KartikPrabhu right but how would a site actually do it? make a request to own site and continue if success?
#
aaronpk my old site first checks that the domain is aaronparecki.com, then looks up the path to see if the post exists
#
KartikPrabhu "looks up path" locally i.e. without self HTTP request?
#
aaronpk yeah, the same way it looks up the path to serve HTTP requests
#
KartikPrabhu i see
catsup joined the channel
#
aaronpk you certainly could just make an HTTP request to yourself to check. I might add that to webmention.io
#
KartikPrabhu i am having trouble with that because of my horrible mixed db-file storage
#
KartikPrabhu right now I am checking if an object with that URL is in the DB, but there are static pages on my site that are not in the DB
#
bear I just make a HEAD request to my site
catsup joined the channel
#
bear since I don't really have a data store
#
KartikPrabhu bear: yeah that was another approach I was considering
#
aaronpk yeah I would say that's easier if you have a mix of dynamic routes and static files
#
KartikPrabhu should check if his server responds to HEAD :P
catsup joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /Friendica (+187) "note at least some Selfdogfooding by maintainer Michael Vogel" (view diff)
catsup joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu cc: kylewm snarfed any input to "how do you check if the target of a webmention is an actual valid page on your site?"
#
snarfed you all have covered it
#
KartikPrabhu aah ok cool! :)
#
snarfed by definition, your site knows how to look up its own posts (somehow) in order to serve them
#
snarfed how is an implementation detail :P
catsup joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu sure... was checking if people here have more clever ways than what I do ;)
#
snarfed hard to share techniques since it's *entirely* implementation dependent
#
snarfed in your case, you can just check both db and filesystem, right?
#
tantek.com edited /who_to_follow (+130) "/* Twitter */ View all separate page" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /who_to_follow (+75) "sidebar vs page" (view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah possibly. But there might be a cleverer way to use Django's URL routing stuff.
#
snarfed sure! as usual, do the simple obvious thing first, then optimize/refactor if you want
#
kartikprabhu.com uploaded /File:Bowie-tantek-follow.jpg "Who to follow suggestions from Twitter"
#
KartikPrabhu tantek ^ feel free to include it
Lancey joined the channel
#
tantek thanks KartikPrabhu
#
@jenbee TFW you know you're gonna clear payroll with a bit of breathing room to spare. Ain't nothing like it. #entrepreneurlife #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/687444369004072961)
mblaney, KartikPrabhu1 and tantek joined the channel
#
mblaney hello indiewebcamp
#
Loqi mblaney: bear left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: qualified yes - meteor from the sky, no; anything else, maybe http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-12/line/1452645093793
#
mblaney !tell bear I guess my long term goal is having the ability to keep a site up even though a server goes down.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek three of us @MozSF for HWC SF meetup so far
#
tantek we're quietly typing / reading / writing
#
mblaney there's obviously multiple levels of investment to make that happen, would be nice to be able to read about starting from the smallest set up to the largest
#
bear mblaney - the answer for that is another question - what type of site is it and what resources does it need to run
#
Loqi bear: mblaney left you a message 1 minute ago: I guess my long term goal is having the ability to keep a site up even though a server goes down. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452735366723
#
mblaney bear: it would be a dynamic site, ie backed by a database.
#
bear right so that is the hardest part - how do you get the database replicated for failover
#
tantek ok time to update https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention since its a W3C draft now
#
bear the web part of the equation is common now - two or more servers behind a load balancer or round-robin dns
#
tantek hmm anon edit to link to the W3C spec already. odd
#
tantek their only contribution so far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/67.49.83.255
#
mblaney ok thanks, I guess that answers my initial question that from an indieweb perspective where we all have 1 server, the next level would be to have at least 4 servers.
#
mblaney (2 servers to run the site and 2 load balancers)
#
bear or work it so that the db is used to build a static view
#
mblaney yeah suddenly I like the idea of static sites :-)
#
bear if you can generate a static version then you could fall back to that if the main site is down
#
aaronpk i keep thinking about doing that
#
aaronpk with most of the dynamic bits of my new site all offloaded onto external services that just got a lot easier
#
mblaney is there a general "fallback" technique?
#
bear yea, the only thing to figure out is that with a static site you lose the example.com/foo method of routing foo
#
aaronpk you can fake it
#
aaronpk with a bunch of index.html files
#
bear right
#
aaronpk but yeah it's more limiting
#
aaronpk that's the technique I used with spiderpig so that old wordpress URLs like http://geoloqi.com/blog/category/news/ still work
#
bear having a pure static site with your dynamic endpoints being subdomains is much more flexible IMO
#
mblaney but I mean if you don't prepare for an outage, even with a static site your site will still be down,
#
bear sure
#
mblaney so I'm wondering what the glue is
#
bear finding a vendor that worries about the hard stuff
#
mblaney snarfed was saying multiple IPs in DNS is enough?
#
bear yep - that is how I recommend most normal folk do it
#
aaronpk you still have to proactively remove the dead IP from that pool
#
aaronpk but at least for n% of your visitors it won't be down
#
KartikPrabhu and add it back when it is back up
#
aaronpk where n is 1/#hosts
#
bear with dns providors like dnsimple you can script that
#
aaronpk indieauth.com uses this method right now
#
aaronpk bear: but then who watches the watchers ;)
#
bear yep, it's turtles all the way down
#
KartikPrabhu watchers all the way up
AngeloGladding joined the channel
#
@INC_says From the INC FB page, The Artist. #Inc_says #Roku #RokuUk #indie #indiefilm #indieweb https://twitter.com/INC_says/status/687451825054732288/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/687451825054732288)
#
mblaney well I like the idea of being able to do something (anything) :-)
#
bear find two good/cheap vps providors like digitalocean
#
mblaney still I think I have just given myself a very large project that I wasn't expecting
#
KartikPrabhu there are also service workers which effectively offline your site though not wide-spread browser support yet
#
aaronpk there are really two parts to the cost, one is the actual cost of the servers, the other is the maintenance cost of making sure the fallback mechanism is working
#
bear I should really start a small indieweb oriented hosting service
#
Loqi agreed.
#
tantek yes!
#
KartikPrabhu indiehosters is one of those
#
KartikPrabhu don't know feature set though
#
mblaney bear++ for the service and also the devops advice
#
Loqi bear has 94 karma
#
tantek the whole emphasis on four types of linkbacks is irrelevant trivia
#
tantek I'm rewriting the whole intro para
[snarfed] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] all good redundancy discussion! mblaney I'll plug cloudflare again, they may have the best and easiest plug-and-play live serving redundancy service I've seen
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: wikipedia has a lot of that
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: opportunities to fix pages
#
aaronpk oh yeah good call on cloudflare
#
aaronpk i was super surprised how easy it was to set up and how magic it is
#
KartikPrabhu I try not to get involved with wikipedia editing politics/arguments
#
KartikPrabhu just reading the "talk" page gives me chills
#
bear yea, cloudflare is good
#
aaronpk they have an option to keep serving cached pages when the backend is down
#
mblaney thanks snarfed will check it out
#
tantek which talk page?
#
bear cloudflare is squid/varnish made easy
#
aaronpk they also have free SSL and it just works like magic without any configuration
#
[snarfed] aaronpk++ yup the auto cached site serving is arguably the feature mblaney is looking for right now
#
Loqi aaronpk has 52 karma
#
[snarfed] bear++ exactly!
#
Loqi bear has 95 karma
#
aaronparecki.com edited /Webmention (+6) "link to editor's draft" (view diff)
#
mblaney I like the idea that there are services that make this stuff easy, but also want to get to the bottom of how they work
#
mblaney so will probably revisit squid/varnish now too :-)
#
aaronpk it's good to know how they actually work so that you can fully appreciate the service
shiflett joined the channel
#
tantek ok I made pretty deep edits here - take a look and see if people think this is more accurate etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: does look better than previous one
#
tantek thanks
#
tantek I'm getting impatient with crappy / esoteric written Wikipedia articles and just going to start boldly fixing more and more of them
#
KartikPrabhu excelsior!
#
tantek yes! (love that movie)
#
tantek here's another one that desperately needs fixing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_%28information_technology%29
#
tantek now four of us doing quiet wriiting
#
tantek here @MozSF
hoplo2 joined the channel
#
hoplo2 Hello
#
tantek almost HWC time!
#
tantek looks around for benwerd and kylewm
#
KartikPrabhu hi hoplo2
#
hoplo2 I have a staticly generated website (with Pelican). I have added rel=me to my github/twitter. What’s next?
#
KartikPrabhu you could work through indiewebify.me
wolftune and jgmac1106 joined the channel
#
hoplo2 Yeah that website is really handy. I’m looking at adding microformats information to my posts, the end goal of this is to add classes to my html?
#
KartikPrabhu yes microformats are added as classes to your HTML
#
KartikPrabhu but the end goal is to have microformats so that other sites can interpret your post correctly
#
tantek kicking off HWC here in SF
#
tantek I pointed out that W3C published w3.org/TR/webmention - much thanks aaronpk
#
tantek and minor design tweaks on tantek.com images
#
tantek Art Brock - my site is http://artbrock.com/
#
tantek using Drupal
#
tantek kylewm - going to show something
#
tantek ... website is kylewm.com
#
tantek ... tool that aaronpk wrote called ownyourgram
#
tantek ... lets you subscribe to your instagram feed
#
tantek ... posts your photos from IG to your site
#
tantek ... though for about half the users it seemed to stop working
#
tantek ... Played with IFTTT
#
tantek ... uses a webhook with micropub access token to publish to his site from IG!
#
tantek ... tried taking a photo and posting to IG
#
tantek ... posted to kylewm's site in under a minute!
#
tantek Ben Werdmuller
#
tantek ... personal site is werd.io
#
tantek ... shows a wordpress site with a single sign-on to Known
#
tantek ... abstracted out the authentication
#
tantek ... shows new "Files" feature of Known
#
tantek ... ability to upload any kind of file
#
tantek ... something for campus customers, but will be in next open source version
#
tantek ... Question: what is the best practice for displaying an uploaded file?
#
tantek ... right now we only display the file name
#
tantek ... I want to display a preview, maybe show it inline, slideshare style
#
tantek ... e.g. Powerpoint or Keynote presentations
#
tantek ... if people ask for presentations they ask for it in Keynote format
#
tantek ... Video!
#
tantek ... viewing now works
#
tantek ... how can we make uploading easier?
#
tantek ... I want to solve that this year.
almereyda, lukebrooker, XgF and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
tantek Matt (sp?) accompanied Art
#
tantek ... first HWC meetup. knows ben and kevinmarks
#
tantek ... got interviewed by HuffingtonPost
#
tantek ... started another group called Build The Collaborative Internet
#
tantek ... has a blog on wordpress, where he dumps writing
#
tantek ... wants to make it easier to navigate different kinds of content
#
tantek Sean (sp?) web dev for 7 years
#
tantek ... been in games for ~15-16 years
#
tantek ... works for a games studio downtown
#
tantek ... head of web dev team
#
tantek ... primarily focuses on toolchain stuff
endi joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com edited /events/2016-01-13-homebrew-website-club (+135) "/* Portland */ pdx guest list" (view diff)
#
artbrock.com created /Template:artbrock (+34) "Created page with "[[User:artbrock.com|Arthur Brock]]"" (view diff)
#
artbrock.com created /User:Artbrock.com (+59) "Created page with "Alt.Currency geek in Woodstock, NY working on nextNet tools"" (view diff)
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
angelo.lahacker.net edited /events/2016-01-27-homebrew-website-club (+425) "/* Where */" (view diff)
#
angelo.lahacker.net edited /events/2016-01-27-homebrew-website-club (+65) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
minsky and snarfed joined the channel
#
@harryhalpin RT @w3c First Public Working Drafts: Webmention; Social Web Protocols https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5268 (twitter.com/_/status/687498570975559680)
bear joined the channel
#
matthewschutte.com created /User:Matthewschutte.com (+1019) "Created page with "I am drawn to complex challenges that include: - surfing 50 foot waves at Mavericks - rethinking the role of privacy in a society - architecting a more useful structure for the i..."" (view diff)
hoplo2, snarfed, AngeloGladding, tantek and minsky joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu made some basic changes to reply-contexts: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes
#
KartikPrabhu basically doing a readable text-design
lukebrooker and nitot joined the channel
#
@macybot The webmentions spec is now being published as a w3c working draft (https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/687531823006662656)
#
@seeksanusername #WorkingDraft pour #Webmention par la #W3C (sorte de réimplémentation moderne du Pingback) via @regisrob https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/687534252683038720)
#
GWG !tell tantek Any information to decide how many rooms we need to have video etc for?
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
cweiske and e-lima joined the channel
#
@W3CSuomi RT @w3c First Public Working Drafts: Webmention; Social Web Protocols https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5268 (twitter.com/_/status/687536296735195136)
sanduhrs joined the channel
#
@cmdlineprompt @TenYearNote @pmarca (from a shrinking workforce) attrition to continue until we can safely automate resource distribution. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/687541637086445568)
Jihaisse and cweiske joined the channel
#
petermolnar morning
#
Loqi petermolnar: GWG left you a message 8 hours, 10 minutes ago: I'd still rather have a cron job work on items in the comment table with a special queued status. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452730254438
#
cweiske hiho
#
petermolnar GWG for receiving, your solution would work, I admit; for queuing outgoing mentions, that was my basic, larger issue
#
petermolnar also, I don't want the autoinc on the built-in tables
#
petermolnar until there's a custom comment type support - it could be done with a few filters I believe, so I'll look into that - I'm sticking to this queue solution
sanduhrs joined the channel
#
@dkreuz Nächster Schritt für #indieweb: "W3C schlägt Social-Media-Standards vor" http://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/W3C-schlaegt-Social-Media-Standards-vor-3070116.html (Heise ignoriert http://indiewebcamp.com/) (twitter.com/_/status/687555833039826945)
gRegorLove, friedcell, loic_m, sanduhrs, sammachin and sanduhrs1 joined the channel
#
petermolnar !tell GWG http://wpbin.io/4au9hq <- this might be enough to support custom comment statuses, but I'm yet to start testing it
#
petermolnar Loqi?
#
petermolnar sudo Loqi?
#
@michielbdejong RT @w3c First Public Working Drafts: Webmention; Social Web Protocols https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5268 (twitter.com/_/status/687633345656786944)
#
marcthiele.com edited /2016/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
#
marcthiele.com edited /2016/Germany/Guest_List (+845) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
#
aaronpk come back Loqi
Loqi joined the channel
#
aaronpk well that worked
#
petermolnar I'll try that next time
snarfed, singpolyma, stream7 and shiflett joined the channel
#
GWG Good day all
j12t joined the channel
#
petermolnar hi GWG
#
petermolnar Loqi had a little time off, so: http://wpbin.io/4au9hq <- this might be enough to support custom comment statuses, but I'm yet to start testing it
#
Loqi grins profusely
#
GWG It would be. But I'm not sure if there are other concerns. Although 4.5 might be the version of custom comment types, so might be a good time to slip it in.
#
petermolnar do you have any spare capacity to test it?
#
GWG You mean, server or time wise?
#
petermolnar time :)
#
petermolnar server wise I have spare resources, it's usually the time what's short
#
GWG The getting and setting aren't the only issue
#
GWG But, I may fiddle
#
petermolnar what are the other issues?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "other issues" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10BF
#
petermolnar we need an escape sequence for what is... ? questions
#
GWG Avoiding spam checks till the webmention is processed
#
petermolnar Since I've turned off pingback and regular comments, I turned off akismet as well, so I haven't even thought about that aspect, nice catch
#
petermolnar you could force-unset all actions on the preprocess_comment hook
#
petermolnar hack, yes, but should work
tantek joined the channel
#
GWG I thought I would create a custom new_comment until I could propose integration
#
petermolnar I think you'll need to be specific what you mean under 'custom comment'
#
GWG Write a function that is basically a patched version of wp_new_comment.
#
petermolnar ok, but what is preventing you doing this at the moment?
#
petermolnar I belive you'd need to:
#
GWG Creating a function? Nothing but time
#
petermolnar a, suppress displaying the comment until 'approved'; b, suppress spam filters until the end of custom-approval, which is the pullback of the remote content
#
petermolnar for this, using currently available filters & hooks + comment_type should do
#
GWG It's doable as proof of concept.
tantek_ joined the channel
#
petermolnar but what you're talking about is just a webmention receiver
#
petermolnar is it not?
#
GWG petermolnar: Yes. That is the part I'm focusing on right now.
#
GWG I understand you are looking at a webmention sender.
#
GWG I think that is the easier of the two to implement.
#
GWG Unless you consider Vouch, which makes the sender more complex.
#
petermolnar I revisited both by adding a queue which is filled on action, emptied by cron
#
petermolnar but yes, the sender is easier
#
GWG I may play with it a bit. I also have to prepare for IWC NYC next weekend, although still waiting on Tantek for some information
stream7 and hoplo2 joined the channel
#
Loqi [indienews] New post: http://werd.io/2016/how-we-built-known (from http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks/2016/01/14/1/indieweb-withknown) http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en/werd.io/2016/how-we-built-known
stream7_, stream7, j12t, fkooman, e-lima, cleverdevil and KartikPrabhu1 joined the channel
#
yatil.net edited /2016/Germany/Guest_List (+263) "/* Participants */ Add me" (view diff)
#
@yatil @marcthiele The link to the indiewebcamp wiki after getting a ticket at tito goes to /2015/Germany/Guest_List instead of /2016/… (twitter.com/_/status/687681057194426368)
dirkdiiggler and snarfed joined the channel
#
bear OpenSSH CVE-0216-0777 -- tl;dr; add "UseRoaming no" to your ~/.ssh/config or /etc/ssh/ssh_config to turn off the experimental feature that for some reason was enabled by default
#
jessman5.com edited /2016/Germany/Guest_List (+304) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
M-RyanRix and snarfed joined the channel
#
@itspec55 @vester71 toko bij de beste toko van Nederland #menteng #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/687687507442581504)
stream7, cleverdevil, snarfed, renoirb, cleverdevil-, stream7_, obensource, cleverdevil_ and gRegorLove joined the channel
#
GWG gRegorLove, you said your implementation of webmentions used a cron similar to the one wordpress usrs, right?
#
GWG Or am I misremembering?
#
kylewm GWG: he said it uses https://processwire.com/api/modules/lazy-cron/
#
GWG Which is the same as wp-cron, triggered by page load.
hoplo2 joined the channel
#
GWG I am wondering about the possible load on that.
#
KartikPrabhu1 build and test
#
GWG I am fact finding right now.
#
kylewm um, does that kind of cron actually mitigate DoS?
#
snarfed only somewhat
#
snarfed serializes the outgoing HTTP fetches, parsing, and processing
#
snarfed but not the inbound request handling
#
kylewm ah ok
#
kylewm and blocks some unlucky person's request every 30 seconds
#
GWG This is the problem I am facing.
#
snarfed honestly GWG i still think you're overprioritizing async support
#
snarfed but i'll try not to rehash the same conversation :P
#
snarfed on an unrelated note, i made a bridgy screencast for applying for facebook's user_actions.news permission. annoying but at least it's done! https://youtu.be/otq0rcidmyI
#
snarfed oops that's the old one. here's the new one: https://youtu.be/v6mBcRs8CGI
#
GWG snarfed, if I am trying to get it into core, it needs to be fully baked.
#
gRegorLove Lazy cron runs after the page is delivered, doesn't slow the page load
#
gRegorLove Receiving and sending are async in my plugin, yeah
#
GWG That is why I am planning before building instead of just building.
#
snarfed GWG: i understand, i just disagree that "fully baked" necessarily includes async, especially for individual sites
#
snarfed anyway. i'll stop now. :P
#
gRegorLove The core WP Pingback plugin doesn't do async, right?
#
gRegorLove Er, not a plugin, but you know what I mean
#
GWG Nope
#
aaronpk if you *can* do async processing in the existing wordpress infrastructure then I think you should. if it requires a bunch of changes to core then probably not worth doing at the moment.
#
GWG aaronpk, I think you can, that is what I am exploring.
#
gRegorLove It doesn't seem too likely the WP devs will complain if webmention lacks async, then
#
gRegorLove GWG: AFAIK, the wp-cron functions similarly. The cron job should run after the page is delivered, so won't slow the page load for anyone.
#
GWG I intend to build a test plugin at some point.
#
kylewm ah yeah, I keep forgetting you can do that
#
GWG I like the existing plugin, but I think we can iterate on it.
#
snarfed i'm curious which "page loads" you all keep referring to. webmentions usually aren't end user HTTP requests; humans generally aren't waiting on them to finish to see anything.
#
aaronpk snarfed: wp-cron is triggered on every visit to the wordpress site
#
gRegorLove snarfed: It's a lazy cron, for hosts that don't allow you to set up cron
#
snarfed ahh, wp implementation detail, got it. nm.
#
aaronpk it's a clever trick to avoid needing to set up actual cron jobs
#
snarfed understood
#
aaronpk course it has its own problems, which is why I usually set up a cron job that hits the wp-cron.php file manually and disable the automatic one in the config
#
GWG So it is similar to the design gRegorLove is using.
#
GWG aaronpk, so do I.
#
snarfed honestly you might consider waiting to see how the wp core people respond and what they actually care about and ask for. i suspect fully designed and hardened async support will be low on their list.
#
gRegorLove What are the problems, outside it not being guaranteed to run with the set frequency?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "problems, outside it not being guaranteed to run with the set frequency" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10BG
#
gRegorLove Loqi
#
Loqi yeah!
#
aaronpk https://www.lucasrolff.com/wordpress/why-wp-cron-sucks/
#
GWG Are you all so impatient?
ttepasse joined the channel
#
aaronpk that's actually an interesting point, since the default async method is wp-cron being triggered by visitors, you're actually giving people a worse default than having the webmention request process it synchronously
#
GWG Do you need your mentions now?
#
gRegorLove Hm
#
snarfed for decent UX, yes. if not now then within a few seconds.
#
aaronpk best option of course is a real cron job to keep all the processing outside of web requests, but if you can't do that, then it might actually be better to have the webmention endpoint do everything itself
#
GWG I planned to design the functionality for a drop in option.
#
GWG If I get all the hooks and settings right, then you could replace processing with something external.
#
gRegorLove wp-cron still prevents DoS, so I think it's still better even if it can have memory issues
#
snarfed gRegorLove: s/prevents/somewhat mitigates/
#
petermolnar kylewm, GWG: define ( 'DISABLE_WP_CRON', true ); + add * * * * * wordpress wget -q -O- https://petermolnar.eu/wp-cron.php?doing_wp_cron 2>&1 >/dev/null
#
GWG petermolnar, I do that.
#
kylewm I like that, progressive enhancement
#
GWG kylewm, I consider Wordpress Core the big leagues of Wordpress development.
#
gRegorLove snarfed: I don't follow
#
petermolnar aaronpk re worst user experience when you're using wp-cron based plugins one might assume it's aimed for environments where system cron triggers wp-cron
#
petermolnar but that might need to be highlighted in the readme
#
snarfed gRegorLove: if your small self-hosted WP site gets hit by, say, a 1kqps webmention DoS, you're going to have a bad time just trying to handle those inbound requests, regardless of whether you process them sync or async
#
snarfed less bad with async, but still bad
#
kylewm I wonder if there's a service you can configure to hit your wp-cron.php for you
#
gRegorLove Sure, but that's not because of webmention.
#
kylewm maybe whatever that one was that kept heroku free boxes from going to sleep
#
gRegorLove Without the webmention plugin that same site would still crash
#
justonestep.de edited /2016/Germany/Guest_List (+269) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove Interesting idea, kylewm. Like pingomatic
#
snarfed right. my point is that the window of traffic size where you'd survive async but die sync is pretty small
#
GWG There is another reason.
#
snarfed e.g. <5qps, you're fine either way. >20qps you're dead either way. and DoSes are usually >100s of qps
#
gRegorLove Huh, interesting.
#
snarfed kylewm: gRegorLove: many monitoring services like pingdom, scalyr (i think), new relic have free plans that will probe arbitrary URLs
#
gRegorLove Now I'm questioning async at all. I feel like I'm missing something. Need to read more. :)
#
snarfed gRegorLove: welcome to distributed systems design! it's a fun, often counterintuitive world.
#
aaronpk if what GWG is doing can support *actual* async (outside of web requests) then it sounds like it's worth it
#
GWG This discussion helps
#
aaronpk also keep in mind that it's not just a 1kqps DoS you're trying to prevent. another attack is:
#
snarfed https://twitter.com/lindsey/status/575006945213485056
#
@lindsey "Oh, you wanted to *increment a counter*?! Good luck with that!" -- the distributed systems literature (twitter.com/_/status/575006945213485056)
#
aaronpk attacker makes 100 simultaneous webmention requests with a source URL that will keep the connection open for an arbitrarily long time. now all of a sudden your server is holding 100 connections open and using ram for each.
#
snarfed agreed, amplification attacks like that are interesting
#
gRegorLove My plugin can support actual async. Reason I'm using the lazy cron is because I'm certain a lot of users don't have cron access
#
snarfed the common case is they send those 100 reqs to 100 different servers. so async doesn't help the end target, but does still help your own server
#
snarfed anyway. it's complicated. as usual, when in doubt, follow occam's razor, do the simplest thing until if/when you know there's a real problem to address
#
gRegorLove Depending on the async delay, those 100 requests may not all hit the end target though, right? Which I guess falls under "somewhat mitigates" not prevent.
#
petermolnar kylewm re: "I wonder if there's a service you can configure to hit your wp-cron.php for you" yes, the system cron :)
#
gRegorLove s/though/at the same time though/
#
Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: Depending on the async delay, those 100 requests may not all hit the end target at the same time though, right? Which I guess falls under "somewhat mitigates" not prevent.
#
aaronpk in my example the site receiving the webmention requests was the target
#
aaronpk s/target/target of the attack
#
Loqi aaronpk meant to say: in my example the site receiving the webmention requests was the target of the attack
#
kylewm petermolnar: i assume you don't have access to the system cron on shared hosting
#
petermolnar you should
#
petermolnar even on shared, the web control panels usually allow that
#
Loqi I agree
#
petermolnar see, Loqi knows
#
kylewm ah, good to know
#
aaronpk who has a sync endpoint I can test with :)
#
gRegorLove Haha
#
petermolnar feel free to hit mine, though it should be cron async now; I'm curious what's the limit of my setup :)
#
snarfed aaronpk: mine too. also any tumblr, blogger, or wp.com blog signed up for bridgy
#
snarfed bridgy will scale much better than my site :P
shiflett joined the channel
#
aaronpk petermolnar: i just threw 100 webmentions at you
#
aaronpk each one takes 10 seconds for the source URL to return a response
#
snarfed fun
#
aaronpk this site is handy https://nghttp2.org/httpbin/
#
petermolnar aaronpk I've seen a small spike in nginx requests, but to be honest, with all the iptables and nginx limits in place, I'm surprised it's even visible
j12t joined the channel
#
aaronpk your processing seems to be async, all the requests returned before the 10 seconds was up
#
snarfed applied for facebook's user_actions.news permission for bridgy. fingers crossed! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/479#issuecomment-171739214
#
petermolnar hm
#
petermolnar aaronpk have you seen this before: https://nghttp2.org/httpbin/drip?duration=10&numbytes=100&code=200
#
petermolnar don't click the link
#
aaronpk that's what I sent you
#
petermolnar just observe the url
#
petermolnar ok
#
petermolnar because it's strange :)
#
aaronpk the docs are here https://nghttp2.org/httpbin/
modem_ joined the channel
#
aaronpk duration=10 makes that url take 10 seconds before it finishes responding
#
petermolnar the wp-webmentions-again you were hitting checks for valid url source, valid url target & maps the target url to a post id; if all these pass, it pushes it to the queue
#
kylewm snarfed++ for applying for new facebook permissions during the week
#
Loqi snarfed has 191 karma
#
snarfed lol thanks
#
kylewm I always hate waiting until the end of the weekend :P
#
snarfed s/during the week/ever/
#
snarfed ah true
#
GWG I'm loving this conversation
#
GWG I wish I didn't have to step away.
#
aaronpk petermolnar: that makes sense
#
petermolnar it doesn't check if the remote page is available or that is contains the target url, so it's not entirely according to the draft
#
petermolnar that is done when it gets out from the queue
#
aaronpk that's what the spec recommends
#
petermolnar my reason for that was that in some rare cases the mention might hit me earlier than the page is available online
#
petermolnar so then the request would fail immediately
#
petermolnar that situation can occur if the sending is triggered on publish and the publish takes longer than the request
#
snarfed unrelated, on behalf of bear and me and all other unofficial devopsen here...new ssh vulnerability, update your ssh configs! https://twitter.com/diogomonica/status/687674748772290560
#
@diogomonica A Vulnerability in an experimental feature added to OpenSSH in 2009, gets fixed by undocumented client-side option. http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20160114142733 (twitter.com/_/status/687674748772290560)
#
bear snarfed++ of note - make sure that config change is at the *TOP* of your ssh config file
#
Loqi snarfed has 192 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme at the top of?
#
ben_thatmustbeme why would that matter?
#
snarfed per-host configs
#
kylewm sorry for being obtuse but is that /etc/ssh/ssh_config on the client or the server?
#
snarfed your ~/.ssh/config
#
snarfed so client
#
aaronpk also if you've SSH'd into other peoples' machines lately you might want to make new private keys since you can't know if yours was downloaded
#
snarfed :(
#
bear on linux systems you can set client ssh config defaults using /etc/ssh_config (the service daemon uses /etc/sshd_config )
#
bear but most folks here only need to update ~/.ssh/config
#
snarfed right
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
petermolnar I'd suggest adding ForwardAgent no by default as well; and thanks for the heads up
nitot_ and AngeloGladding joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme good point about per host configs
#
ben_thatmustbeme didn't think about that
#
gRegorLove Looks like this doesn't affet PuTTY on Windows, correct?
#
petermolnar putty is not openssh
#
petermolnar so no, that's endangered
Loqi, cleverdevil and tantek joined the channel
#
petermolnar snarfed any way for us to ++ the we-wants-stream-for-bridgy?
#
snarfed huh?
cleverdevil, Loqi, jacus, j12t_ and endi joined the channel
#
snarfed wonders what petermolnar was talking about
#
tantek wonders as well
#
Loqi tantek: GWG left you a message 14 hours, 25 minutes ago: Any information to decide how many rooms we need to have video etc for? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-13/line/1452755937247
#
tantek GWG, let's go with 2 until I have more information
#
gRegorLove wonders^3
alexhartley, hoplo2, lukebrooker, stream7 and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /events/2016-01-13-homebrew-website-club (+270) "/* Photos */ add kylewm's SF photo" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /who_to_follow (+329) "/* Twitter who to follow page */" (view diff)
tantek, alexhartley and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /Events (+1088) "past, next" (view diff)
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
tantek rhiaro: are we good to go with IndieWebCamp MIT venue details (space, rooms etc.) 2016-03-14..15?
#
tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+757) "next HWCs, IWCs" (view diff)
jciv joined the channel
#
tantek does anyone have "favorite quotes" on their personal site?
#
tantek what are favorite quotes?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "favorite quotes" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10BH
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/like-website-obesity-crisis
#
KartikPrabhu does that count?
#
KartikPrabhu I should make that into a "quotation" post
#
Loqi I agree
#
tantek favorite quotes is a feature of some silo profiles (like Facebook), where a user can add quotes that resonates particularly strongly with them or are self-describing.
#
loqi.me created /favorite_quotes (+193) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-14/line/1452813911119 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: no that's a /quotation post - very different
#
KartikPrabhu ok
#
KartikPrabhu maybe that is an FAQ then: diff between /quotation and /favorite-quotes
#
KartikPrabhu or an OAQ: Once Asked Question
#
gRegorLove What is quotation?
#
Loqi A quotation is a type of post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation
#
gRegorLove Twice Asked Question. Not sure I understand the difference other than placement on the site.
#
gRegorLove E.g. FB has the "quotes" section of the profile vs a /quotation that appears in a stream of notes?
#
tantek correct
#
KartikPrabhu ok then the quote here: https://www.kartikprabhu.com/about
#
gRegorLove The /quotation definition also sounds like it must be a quotation of a post posted at a URL, so quoting something someone said offline wouldn't count?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: did you just add that?!?
#
tantek I feel like I've seen it before
#
tantek do you remember when you added it?
#
KartikPrabhu nope. it has been there since the page existed
#
KartikPrabhu no idea when I made that page!
#
gRegorLove I'm not sure I understand the importance of the distinction.
#
KartikPrabhu https://kartikprabhu.com/404
#
tantek gRegorLove: they are different existent phenomena
#
gRegorLove Hah! Nice, KartikPrabhu
#
tantek on both indieweb sites and in silos
#
tantek what is the importance of the distinction?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "importance of the distinction" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10BJ
#
tantek the importance of the distinction is demonstrated by the existence of different phenomena in the wild, each deserving of their own documentation, analysis, clustering, and possible reconstruction. See for example [[favorites quotes]] vs [[quotation]] posts.
#
loqi.me created /importance_of_the_distinction (+280) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-14/line/1452814602570 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek there you go gRegorLove
#
gRegorLove Should add a /404#IndieWeb_Examples with that, KartikPrabhu
#
gRegorLove If I quote something someone said at a lecture and it's not online somewhere, is it a /quotation?
#
gRegorLove Or quoting something read in a book?
#
tantek yes
#
tantek different h-cite properties, but still a quotation
#
gregorlove.com edited /favorite_quotes (+65) "IndieWeb Examples / See Also sections" (view diff)
#
tantek took too long to save
#
gRegorLove Sorry :)
#
gRegorLove Ooh, nice tool for finding original posts, KartikPrabhu: https://kartikprabhu.com/original-of
#
tantek (been looking for a silo example)
#
gRegorLove E.g. https://kartikprabhu.com/original-of/?url=https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/685992948111151105
#
@kartik_prabhu http://nautil.us Nice article on reading — print and digital. cc: @craigmod (twitter.com/_/status/685992948111151105)
#
tantek gRegorLove: never be sorry for updating a wiki page quickly :)
#
aaronpk oh nicely done
#
aaronpk adds that to his todo list
#
gRegorLove Perhaps worth adding to /original-post-discovery
#
tantek definitely
hoplo2 joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /favorite_quotes (+857) "add some more distinguishing details to dfn, indieweb example, silo example" (view diff)
#
tantek At this point I refuse to use a silo feature without documenting it first on IndieWebCamp
#
tantek leaving myself breadcrumbs to escape a particular section of a walled garden
#
tantek.com edited /Facebook (+97) "/* Features */ about / favorite quotes" (view diff)