#indiewebcamp 2016-02-08

2016-02-08 UTC
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GWG reads logs
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GWG If we're taking IWC worldwide, does that make it IndieWorldCamp?
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mblaney !tell shaners I use SimplePie which looks like it tries to deal with atom category schemes, but not sure what that should look like.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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mblaney ^ that won't be a problem once I've reimported the list, defaulting to microformats when it's available.
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[kevinmarks] Use some locale checking js to mung the dates?
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unicyclic.com mal edited /feed (+251) "/* How To Consume */" (view diff)
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mblaney ^ KartikPrabhu if you have any feedback :-)
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kylewm retroactive posse is the ability to syndicate a post sometime after initial publishing
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mblaney !tell bear I couldn't discover your hcard from an h-entry author url because of a trailing slash
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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mblaney having fun with discovery today :-)
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mblaney anyone feel the consumer (me in this case) should be more relaxed about such things?
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mblaney so many edge cases to worry about if so...
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aaronpk i'm not sure what the problem you encountered is
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aaronpk if I quickly glance at http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbear.im%2Fbearlog%2F2016%2F031%2Fcongrats-to-aaron-for-his-2016-site-refactoring.html I see an h-card with https://bear.im/ which matches the author property of the h-entry
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016-01-01-commitments (+91) "/* Aaron Parecki */ add link to announcement" (view diff)
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mblaney yes and then based on /authorship you parse https://bearim/
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mblaney but the matching url there doesn't have a trailing slash: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://bear.im
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aaronpk I thought the authorship algorithm ended after you match the h-card on that page with the author property of the h-entry
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aaronpk ah you are right. I was thinking of the last case of 7
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aaronpk I would add a step which is normalizing URLs, which basically would add "/" to a URL that has no path, since a URL has to have a path in order to do anything with it
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aaronpk note it's not a "trailing slash" rule, it's explicitly only adding a slash if there is no path
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mblaney oh I'm not sure now... I don't really understand what "author-page" means anyway!
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aaronpk "author-page" is defined in step 5
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aaronpk "if author property is an http(s) URL, let the author-page have that URL"
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mblaney yeah I find the wording strange, but I guess that means assignment?
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aaronpk agreed, but yes
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mblaney ok so that's what I'm doing :-)
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mblaney but now that I think about it,
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mblaney why should I look on another page when there's a matching h-card on the current one?
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aaronpk there is potentially richer information on the other page
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aaronpk but there's no guarantee of that. it might make sense to prioritize using the matching h-card and making it optional to fetch the other page
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aaronpk I would be curious to hear tantek's thoughts on that since he's the one who wrote this up. He tends to have good reasons for these details even if they are not yet captured on the page.
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mblaney ok for now I'll just think about adding slashes then.
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mblaney hadn't thought about url's needing paths before.
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aaronpk in either case I would still add a slash if there is no path in the URL
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aaronpk think about the HTTP request involved, if you are trying to fetch "https://bear.im" you make an HTTP GET request to the server at bear.im, you have to request *some* path
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aaronpk so you'd say "GET / HTTP/1.1\r\nHost: bear.im"
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bear https://bear.im isn't the full url - it's https://bear.im/
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Loqi bear: mblaney left you a message 18 minutes ago: I couldn't discover your hcard from an h-entry author url because of a trailing slash http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454900709975
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aaronpk bear: the h-card on https://bear.im/ has a URL of "https://bear.im"
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bear oh? hrmm, I changed my generation code recently
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andrijevik.net edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+198) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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bear let me fix that
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mblaney maybe php-mf2 should slashify all urls for me then ;-)
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aaronpk hm actually that seems like not a bad idea. it already resolves relative URLs when parsing...
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kylewm +1
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bear fixed
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aaronpk oops. i gotta figure out a better way to push updates to my site. it was definitely broken for a minute
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bear yea, that gets me also - i'm gathering quite the collection of small tools that make up my "site"
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aaronpk problem is I do a `git pull`, but then a bunch of code references things that aren't there until I run `composer install`, and then I still have an issue because database changes aren't applied until I run `migrate`
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aaronpk I guess ruby apps don't have this problem because they don't reload the code from disk until you explicitly restart the app
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aaronpk I wonder how Known deals with in-place updates like this though
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bear rolling update probably
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bear stand up the replacement and then swap it out at the web server or load balancer
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aaronpk but for self-hosted known?
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aaronpk wordpress does it really well too
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bear oh - I was thinking about ruby
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GWG Did I see someone mention WordPress?
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aaronpk waves
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GWG has a notification
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GWG aaronpk: I get notified in WordPress or my username, and a few other keywords.
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aaronpk didn't mean to summon you
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mblaney thanks bear! /authorship discovery is working now.
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mblaney also found your log via new rel=feed discovery changes I've made, so double plus good.
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kylewm aaronpk: known does not use composer (yet) and migrates the db the first time it's accessed
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aaronpk how does it deal with locking the migration to make sure it doesn't try to migrate it twice
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aaronpk for example i've got this bot crawling me right now, making 2-3 requests per second, so I don't trust that an in-process migration would finish before the next request came in
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek I have to agree, month names would be clearer. Also, language isn't as much a concern as wikis have a method for alternate language versions of a page, plus translation software will work perfectly well on a month name
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 23 minutes ago: please take a look at https://indiewebcamp.com/Events#Upcoming I hid 2016 from upcoming dtstarts in an attempt to implement a Crystal suggestion and see if it would help readability. Opinions? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454880039130
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm very good question
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kylewm I don't know if it does that
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aaronpk has syndicate-to buttons now!
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aaronpk *whew* that was a lot of work
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aaronpk i have a whole settings interface now, so I can manage my rel=me links and bio and stuff from the web interface
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aaronpk one step closer to having this be installable by other people :)
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kylewm it should probably call "LOCK TABLES" before doing a migration, but I don't think it does
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aaronpk hm now I have to figure out how to make non-micropub based syndicating work with my site
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aaronpk so that I can syndicate to indienews
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[aaronpk] It also occurred to me that the mechanism for returning a webmention status URL conflicts with the way syndicating via webmention returns the URL of the page that was created
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aaronpk kylewm: what are the odds of adding github to silo.pub?
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mblaney hmmm I think bridgy_omit_link has stopped working?
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sixtwothree.org edited /FrancisCMS (+71) "/* Features */ Add automated syndication to list of features." (view diff)
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tantek different kind of social network anti-pattern - OAuth permissions abuse: https://twitter.com/xor/status/694967964114800640
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 22 minutes ago: I have to agree, month names would be clearer. Also, language isn't as much a concern as wikis have a method for alternate language versions of a page, plus translation software will work perfectly well on a month name http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454903074408
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@xor May you live your life with the confidence of this airport wifi captive portal demanding full Twitter account access [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/694967964114800640)
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KartikPrabhu what is feed discovery?
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Loqi feed discovery is a way to, given someone's home page, discover their feed or feeds that they publish https://indiewebcamp.com/feed_discovery
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KartikPrabhu tantek: could you review this edit https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=25261&oldid=24036&rcid=25227 I think it belongs on /feed_discovery
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tantek ! tell ben_thatmustbeme problem with month names is that it's too much work and too easy to get wrong the month name vs. the ISO Date for the <time> elements. and few enough people update /Events anyway so month names = BAD because they make it harder to update.
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tantek !tell ben_thatmustbeme problem with month names is that it's too much work and too easy to get wrong the month name vs. the ISO Date for the <time> elements. and few enough people update /Events anyway so month names = BAD because they make it harder to update.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek I say from experience of being one of the few people who actually updates /Events
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kartikprabhu.com edited /feed_discovery (+98) "/* Brainstorming */ add myself to rel=feed suggestion" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: who implements rel=feed? pretty sure it was seen as unnecessary last time it was proposed, and no one implemented it
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tantek what evidence did you see for it?
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KartikPrabhu I use it and so does Bridgy see /feed_discovery where I added myself
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tantek in practice there's no need for it beyond rel=alternate type=... feed type
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tantek which is why the attempt to create rel=feed died previously
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tantek there's no new need for it
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KartikPrabhu linking to feeds from homepage, alternate is not useful for linking to other feeds from homepage
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tantek what do you mean by other feeds?
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tantek need an example of what you mean
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KartikPrabhu my homepage does not list "notes" but I use rel=feed to link to an h-feed of my notes, which is consumed by bridgy for POSSE-post-discovery
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KartikPrabhu see: https://kartikprabhu.com/
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KartikPrabhu bottom navigation links
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KartikPrabhu which is the same problem mblaney ran into because he had the homepage URLs but wanted to discover the feed URLs
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tantek.com edited /phone (+251) "criticism / Cell use seen as surveillance permission with citation" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: interesting - these are for HTML feeds then?
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tantek there the type="... feed type" won't work
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KartikPrabhu yes. for HTML h-feeds. I also markup my Atom with both "feed" and "alternate" where "alternate" is IMO for legacy readers
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KartikPrabhu i wouldn't think of my "notes" Atom feed as an alternate of my homepage
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tantek I bet that breaks them, since most legacy readers fail to parse space separated rel attributes
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tantek e.g. Google Reader had this problem, I filed a bug, it was never fixed
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KartikPrabhu Feedly seems to work fine. but i have not tested it with others
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KartikPrabhu Bridgy is a good use-case IMO
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tantek KartikPrabhu: could you add those specifics to the rel=feed documentation on microformats.org?
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tantek should be at microformats.org/wiki/rel-feed
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KartikPrabhu ok
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KartikPrabhu that page does not exist should I make one?
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mblaney tantek I've just added support for rel=feed to my reader, specifically to find published h-feeds
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[aaronpk] The events page is getting to the point where I'm considering setting up a calagator instance that we can use instead
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mblaney thanks to KartikPrabhu for the nudge to support it.
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tantek aaronpk: calagator has the same problem as all other event systems, too much structure getting in the way of being able to informally add random events like people speaking, or uncertain events, or potential events etc.
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[aaronpk] It's actually really not that bad, and it's getting to the point where adding anything to the events page is more work
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tantek because we use the wiki to schedule and plan events, the flexibility is important
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KartikPrabhu mblaney: My nudge might have been premature as it seems only I publish them and only Bridgy actually consumes them
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[aaronpk] The events page is not used to plan things, it only lists already planned things
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mblaney no bear supports it too, wouldn't have found his log without it.
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tantek aaronpk: in practice very few people actually help out with events on the site
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tantek aaronpk: not true - we put up rough months when we have an idea for indiewebcamps
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KartikPrabhu mblaney: oh nice
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[aaronpk] Likely because it's so difficult to use the page
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mblaney I'm going to add it to my home page too.
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tantek aaronpk: nah, even the straightforward template stuff like for Homebrew Website Club etc. doesn't get updated by man people
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tantek s/man people/many people
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk: nah, even the straightforward template stuff like for Homebrew Website Club etc. doesn't get updated by many people
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[aaronpk] I know I have on multiple occasions put off editing /events because of the overhead
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KartikPrabhu tantek: moving to #microformats for this discussion
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tantek basically, I don't trust anyone's event system because no one actually uses their own effectively on their own site
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tantek like for all their events
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tantek if you think you know how to do events well with structure, great, implement /event posts on your site and show everyone the screenshots of your UI
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[aaronpk] The PDX calagator is a pretty convincing example for me though
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tantek IMO calagator is not that
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tantek aaronpk: if PDX calagator is a pretty convincing example why have you not used that UI for your own events on your own site?
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KartikPrabhu what is rel feed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel feed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10D5
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tantek event systems fail the selfdogfood test
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KartikPrabhu should I document examples on indiewebcamp wiki?
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mblaney what is rel-feed
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Loqi rel-feed is the standard for linking to multiple (potentially alternative) h-feeds from a site's homepage using the code rel="feed" on those links http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-feed
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[aaronpk] Because I want events on my site to exist in the same space as the rest of my posts
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KartikPrabhu oh
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tantek KartikPrabhu: write up the spec where I said to on microformats.org
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tantek and those specs have "Examples in the wild" and "Implementations" sections
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tantek see rel-tag for example
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KartikPrabhu ok
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[aaronpk] IMO there are enough people who rely on calagator to consider it passing that test
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tantek that's not what selfdogfood means
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tantek having users != selfdogfood
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KartikPrabhu bear: could you add yourself on http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-feed#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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tantek none of those people run calagator on their own domains
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[aaronpk] IndieWebCamp is not a personal site though
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[aaronpk] And neither is a calendar of community events
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tantek which are *harder* problems than individual events
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tantek that's my point
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tantek if people aren't using it on their sites for a simpler problem, why bother with a harder problem?
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[aaronpk] Right and calagator has succeeded at that
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tantek not really - I don't think it allows editing each others events for example
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tantek it's ok for creating events
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[aaronpk] Everything is publicly editable on calagator
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[aaronpk] It's basically an event wiki
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tantek Upcoming and Lanyrd were closest
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[aaronpk] There is no concept of a calagator account
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[aaronpk] Anyway, bedtime for me. Good night.
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Loqi goodnight!
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kartikprabhu.com edited /rel-feed (+241) "add to examples" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu mblaney: want to add yourself to that ^ as consumer
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: want to add to Bridgy at ^^ page?
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tantek.com edited /bitcoin (+833) "/* Criticism */ Mining Wastes Electricity At Loss" (view diff)
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unicyclic.com mal edited /rel-feed (+53) "/* Consuming */" (view diff)
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mblaney done (will be true when I push some changes anyway...)
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KartikPrabhu mblaney: I edited it ia bit ordered by support date. Feel free to add date once you support it
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kylewm.com edited /rel-feed (+372) "/* Bridgy */ mention posse-post-discovery since date, and add Woodwind" (view diff)
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mblaney thanks I'll update it tomorrow assuming I can make my changes then.
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kartikprabhu.com edited /feed_discovery (-109) "/* Off home feeds */" (view diff)
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tantek pretty funny that we are sensitive to different things seeming "hard", e.g. aaronpk's point about editing/adding events to wiki is enough for him to not do it, whereas for me, all the git command-line mumbo jumbo is bad enough for me to never use it
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tantek IMO git CLI is far worse than anything on the wiki, events or otherwise.
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KartikPrabhu personal preferences
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nah, with wiki editing, you can easily see existing examples, copy paste, not feel at risk of collossally screwing things up with the slightest typo
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tantek unlike CLIs
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tantek CLIs are pretty unforgiving UIs. Wiki editing is 100% forgiving because you can always revert.
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KartikPrabhu I am with you but I have talked to people who think git is the easiest thing to do
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kylewm it's a false dichotomy
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kylewm differnt tools for different things
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KartikPrabhu kylewm yeah that's what I mean
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tantek kylewm: why? it's comparing complexity of syntaxes
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kylewm no point in cmparing them
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kylewm git is complex because it does complex stuff
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tantek complexity is no excuse for unforgivability
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kylewm it could be simpler of course
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tantek and its error messages are useless
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tantek kylewm: let me know when git introduces "git undo" to undo the last command you did no matter what it did and then I'll reconsier
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tantek s/reconsier/reconsider
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kylewm: let me know when git introduces "git undo" to undo the last command you did no matter what it did and then I'll reconsider
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KartikPrabhu "git reset --soft Head" >
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KartikPrabhu ?
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KartikPrabhu had to look that up
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tantek on another note, even though I use it as a matter of fact, Bridgy Publish still feels like magic to me
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kylewm tries to think about how undo would work when history is immutable and gives up
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KartikPrabhu :)
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tantek kylewm: wiki pages have history and somehow they make it work
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kylewm I never understand how to tell what changes were made in what revision on the wiki
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tantek really? you click the radio button on a revision and the previous and click show changes
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[kevinmarks] Undo for git is https://github.com/nvbn/thefuck
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tantek then there's the creepy magic that somehow Flickr's bots knew to auto-tag my photo with "road". seriously how do they know that and it's not that obvious is it?!? https://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/24889782515/
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kylewm no git blame though, you can't say "which revision added this line?" can you?
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tantek KevinMarks++ wow.
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Loqi KevinMarks has 193 karma
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tantek kylewm: wiki blame would be amazing. I do think that's being worked on by the mediawiki folks
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KartikPrabhu tantek: image recognition?
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tantek a good reminder: https://twitter.com/liamosaur/status/694674783414292481
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@liamosaur Developers who respond to bad URLs with 302 redirects to a 200 page with error info instead of a proper 404 page should be shot into the sun (twitter.com/_/status/694674783414292481)
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tantek is considering some 404s
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tantek the new lightbox permalink display on twitter is quite bad
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu tantek: try clicking on the "retweet" so you get modal on a modal...
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KartikPrabhu and then hit "escape" so *both* of them close!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: wat. no. wat the wat.
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KartikPrabhu yup! not kidding
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KartikPrabhu you should turn on JS just for that ;)
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Loqi +1
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tantek thanks a lot Loqi :P
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Loqi you're welcome
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KartikPrabhu lol
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kylewm my favorite is when you click a permalink in a modal and it loads the page *underneath* the modal
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kylewm twitter--
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Loqi twitter has -7 karma
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tantek kylewm: I can't believe that. It's like they don't care about web ux?
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KartikPrabhu but... but... modals!
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KartikPrabhu \0/
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tantek Twitter has really screwed up their permalink presentation
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tantek with the unrelated ad tweets pretending to look like replies, to this lightbox nonsense
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matrrix Unsure if I'll have the energy to come to HWC this week. Have two doctor appointments on Wednesday 😳
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-02-10-homebrew-website-club (-15) "/* Where */ Göteborg" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/2zstFAnTIb1KSZT0JIXRqw
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club PDX" http://calagator.org/events/1250469779
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aaronpk wow that is fast
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-02-10-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* Göteborg */ jeena, FB POSSE, indie event" (view diff)
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jeena.net edited /events/2016-02-10-homebrew-website-club (+2) "/* Göteborg */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2016-02-10-homebrew-website-club (+41) "pdx" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/next-hwc https://webmention.io/notification/-sJGmu-IIMjhC5E1jx-JJg
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petermolnar and I thought I was doing something wrong with twitter seeing this; I guess it's a "feature" not a bug... great.
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aaronpk has anyone else seen HTTP 418 responses from wordpress' pingback endpoint?
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aaronpk all the recent pingbacks i've sent to wordpress blogs lately have failed
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@borisschapira @indiewebcamp Hi! I don't understand why I can't use IndieAuth https://t.co/IM5QLDYWxn, could you help or point to s.o. I could ask please ? (twitter.com/_/status/696684009347248129)
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@borisschapira Première étape de l'utilisation de webmention.io, échec d'encodage en Ruby sur IndieAuth : https://indieauth.com/auth/supported_providers.json?me=https%3A%2F%2Fborisschapira.com%2F (euh... help ?) (twitter.com/_/status/696684633715560448)
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Loqi [mention] https://aaronparecki.com/ commented '@borisschapira Hi! Come join the chat room and let's see if we can figure it out...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today#bottom (https://aaronparecki.com/2016/02/08/3/)
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@aaronpk @borisschapira Hi! Come join the chat room and let's see if we can figure it out. https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08 (twitter.com/_/status/696685413939879937)
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aaronpk woo hoo first post syndicated through silo.pub!
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aaronpk hi borisschapira!
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cweiske aaronpk, the micropub draft only gives an examples for objects that can be created. Shouldn't that be part of the spec? Because in the end, everyone could support micropub and still be incompatible with everyone else
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borisschapira hello @aaronpk, thanks for the invite
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aaronpk cweiske: shouldn't what be part of the spec?
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cweiske object property definitions
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cweiske http://micropub.net/draft/#examples-of-creating-objects is non-normative
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aaronpk borisschapira: you're getting that error before it even gives you a list of login options right?
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borisschapira I fact I trid to signup and saw that the progress bar was blocked. I inspected the page and saw this 500 error AJAX call.
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sixtwothree.org edited /code-of-conduct (+42) "/* Signed */ Adding self to signatures on Code of Conduct" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh funny, I think it's because of your mailto link
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aaronpk I haven't encountered someone putting a query string in their mailto link. I will try to fix that right now
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cweiske I do that in my blog to pre-fill the subject with "Re: $titleOfPost"
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aaronpk borisschapira: fixed! try it now!
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borisschapira @aaronpk : It works, thanks a lot!
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aaronpk great!
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@borisschapira Un tweek, un chat IRC, un bug fixé en moins de 10 minutes. Belle réactivité du @indiewebcamp <3 ! (twitter.com/_/status/696691898308816896)
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Loqi [bridgy] Boris replied '@aaronpk Thank you very much for this quick fix!' to a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08 (https://twitter.com/borisschapira/status/696691713826496513)
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ben_thatmustbeme loqi, replay
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 49 minutes ago: problem with month names is that it's too much work and too easy to get wrong the month name vs. the ISO Date for the <time> elements. and few enough people update /Events anyway so month names = BAD because they make it harder to update. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454912283304
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Loqi :)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek i'm not sure I agree with you on them being harder to update, I personally think a number is easier to mix up, but thats me. Its really just a problem of people not updating /Events. I wonder if there is some fudgery that can be done with css like time[datetime*="-02-"]::before {content: "February";}
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk ha
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aaronpk that'd be neat
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme should be able to do the full date from a set of rules like that
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ben_thatmustbeme even just an calendar icon that has the month name or something
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aaronpk I still think this is a silly problem caused by not using a system that is actually made for creating events
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least some templating
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ben_thatmustbeme would be cool to have it auto picked up from any use of an "event" template or something like that
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ben_thatmustbeme and then /events get autogenerated
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aaronpk I didn't actually realize this but apparently the events are all in a category http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:Events
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aaronpk and since each page is marked up with h-event, you could crawl that category page, fetch each URL, and then render a new page showing all the events
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aaronpk the nice thing is it would be using the canonical event URL page to get the data, so we wouldn't have to also worry about duplicating the data between /events and the event permalink
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ben_thatmustbeme even easier
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ben_thatmustbeme as to tantek's point about smaller events, if they post it on any page with h-event markup, its will inject in there as well
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aaronpk oh hm, you'd need to make a wiki page for external events in order to get them into the category list
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bear.im edited /rel-feed (+123) "add myself to examples" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, thats the one down side
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aaronpk okay this is very strange. I forgot to put the google analytics code on my new site, so it has not had the tracking code on it from Jan 30 until today
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aaronpk however, I still see data during that time period
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aaronpk and not really showing a decrease in traffic either
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aaronpk and my new URLs are showing up as well
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aaronpk how is this possible
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ben_thatmustbeme looking at it per day shows that?
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ben_thatmustbeme i know it will average things
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ben_thatmustbeme cached js?
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ben_thatmustbeme uhh, tracking code is somewhere still and didn't realize it??
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aaronpk oh yeah im an idiot
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aaronpk it used to be somewhere else in my site, so it was actually only missing after i pushed the changes last night
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ben_thatmustbeme ah
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aaronpk i need coffee
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Loqi [mention] Peter Molnar wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ https://webmention.io/notification/XdZTHxTqiEGrSgZQPC5mkA
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petermolnar ?
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, another rsvp to mit from eventbrite
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petermolnar that page wasn't recently updated
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2016/MIT/Guest_List (+124) "new rsvp from eventbright" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme huh
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ben_thatmustbeme salmention?
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ben_thatmustbeme weird, its your /about page too
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aaronpk odd
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aaronpk I don't keep stats on the IP address the webmention was sent from either
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aaronpk question: when de-duping webmentions, I should be using the u-url value from the parsed mf2, correct?
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aaronpk (as opposed to the source URL)
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aaronpk bah, something is still wrong with receiving emoji webmentions
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aaronpk I could have sworn I fixed this earlier
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tantek Category:Events could be a good solution yes - especially helpful with being more DRY
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 7 minutes ago: i'm not sure I agree with you on them being harder to update, I personally think a number is easier to mix up, but thats me. Its really just a problem of people not updating /Events. I wonder if there is some fudgery that can be done with css like time[datetime*="-02-"]::before {content: "February";} http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08/line/1454944200048
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: you have reacji working?
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aaronpk no, just trying to properly handle the multibyte encoding of emoji
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather are working on it?
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: except we rarely use the datetime attribute, preferring the visible text inside <time>..</time>
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tantek number +month is easier to mixup than just number. we need the number regardless for the h-event markup
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tantek it's not number vs. month, it's number vs. month+number
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ben_thatmustbeme but i think "March" when i create events
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ben_thatmustbeme i have to translate that to a number already
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ben_thatmustbeme thats where the mess up would be for me
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ben_thatmustbeme you assume there is a stage of "translating it back to a word from a number" which i don't think many people do since they go the other way
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tantek no I'm assuming that by having to duplicate month+number you have more chance of error
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tantek whereas if you *must* get *just* the number right, you'll focus more on that and thus have a better chance of being correct
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ben_thatmustbeme either way, i think you are overthinking it, adding a word when you create an event is not really a big leap. its just that its not updated,
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tantek I do think templates for the event list items would be helpful
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tantek just as they were helpful for guest list RSVPs
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tantek then it would be easier to experiment with different stylings
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tantek time to check on HWC venues for the week
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tantek looks like Brighton is still TBD so assuming that's unlikely
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tantek LA - hmm - thought for sure that was on again
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tantek DC!
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gRegorLove Might be a Bellingham, WA one soon.
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 20 hours, 53 minutes ago: please take a look at https://indiewebcamp.com/Events#Upcoming I hid 2016 from upcoming dtstarts in an attempt to implement a Crystal suggestion and see if it would help readability. Opinions? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454880039130
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tantek gRegorLove: glad to hear it! found a co-organizaer?
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tantek alright, we're in for Mozilla announcements for the week: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WeeklyUpdates/2016-02-08#Wednesday.2C_10_February
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Loqi [indieweb] "WeeklyUpdates/2016-02-08" by Tantek https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=WeeklyUpdates/2016-02-08&diff=1116305&oldid=1116302
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tantek what the
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aaronpk wow the moz wiki must publish to a PuSH hub
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tantek that's kind of amazing
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gRegorLove Not really. I contacted the ACM club at Western, though, so hopefully will get some interest.
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snarfed aaronpk: re de-duping, yes please, prefer u-url to source url
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snarfed actually imho the order of precedence should probably be uid, then u-url, then source
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aaronpk follow-up question to that then, it would seem I need to restrict that to the same domain. otherwise you could hijack someone's comment on my site by sending a webmention with their URL
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gRegorLove tantek: I think I prefer full month names when the yyyy is not displayed.
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gRegorLove I could work on a template that displays the full month name just based on yyyy-mm-dd input, though. I think.
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gRegorLove Supporting other languages would require a separate template in that case, though.
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gRegorLove (Full month names would be hard-coded in the template)
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gRegorLove Actually...
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+150) (view diff)
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gRegorLove Yeah, we can use built-in MediaWiki datetime functions, so the event date can always be entered yyyy-mm-dd and displayed in multiple ways, no manual copy/pasta
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aaronpk thank goodness
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gRegorLove Which I guess is what I already did with /Template:one-day-event I can make a variant with full month name and day
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snarfed aaronpk: good point. i definitely haven't thought through the identity verification part of u-url etc at all
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aaronpk course i'm not sure how to do this without whitelisting bridgy
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snarfed "i'm special. really. trust me."
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snarfed this is just for de-duping, not for moderation, right?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk the problem i'm having is wirres.net for some reason generates multiple URLs for each post, and one URL pattern shows up in his PuSH feed, and the other is from his webmention sending. both have the same u-url property on the page, but they are different source URLs
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snarfed so you could just consider two wms dupes if the uids and/or u-urls match *and* the source domains match
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aaronpk so his mentions are showing up twice right now
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snarfed i think the proposal above would de-dupe that situation correctly and still prevent hijacking attempts, right?
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aaronpk i think so
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snarfed sgtm
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snarfed huh http://indiewebcamp.com/de-dupe is confusing
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snarfed redirects to /Webmention, which doesn't have the string "dup" in it
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snarfed bbi15
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aaronpk oh it's also in a double redirect situation
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aaronparecki.com edited /de-dupe (+14) "fix redirect" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed: lots of links into /Webmention broke when we split stuff into spec / non-sepc
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tantek s/sepc/spec
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Loqi tantek meant to say: snarfed: lots of links into /Webmention broke when we split stuff into spec / non-spec
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snarfed.org edited /Webmention-brainstorming (+321) "/* de-duplication */ also compare source domain to prevent hijacking" (view diff)
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tantek anyone heard of singleplatform.com? They seem to be a semi-full-service website publishing / updating hosting service specifically for local businesses (example: http://bluehawaiisf.com )
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tantek they claim to be very easy to setup etc. could be interesting to research in terms of UI for setting up indieweb sites etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme IWC and F2F approved, I don't have to take PTO
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ben_thatmustbeme yay
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Loqi giggles
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: F2F?
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ben_thatmustbeme socialwg
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GWG I don't know if I'll be able to get up.
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desttinghim I'm trying to get my twitter connected to my domain, but it looks like twitter automatically shortens my link on my profile. How have other people gotten around this?
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aaronpk it works despite that
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ben_thatmustbeme follow the redirect
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ben_thatmustbeme if you are doing it yourself that is, if you mean for indieauth, it already does that
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desttinghim Ok. Indiewebify.me makes it look like it isn't working.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Your Vouch implementation, how much use does it get?
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ben_thatmustbeme receiving or sending?
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GWG Both\
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ben_thatmustbeme well it all happens automatically on sending so i have no clue but i have not received much
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ben_thatmustbeme those that send i have long since whitelisted thus far
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[shaners] Good afternoon (PST), everybody.
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Loqi [shaners]: mblaney left you a message 20 hours, 39 minutes ago: I use SimplePie which looks like it tries to deal with atom category schemes, but not sure what that should look like. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454893213788
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[shaners] !tell mblaney thanks! I think you uncovered a bug of mine. :smile:
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@borisschapira Bon ben webmentio.io est en place. Reste á voir arriver des webmentions. Quelqu'un pour m'en faire une, que je vois si ça marche ? (twitter.com/_/status/696810952554057728)
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jonnybarnes wow, indieauth-client-php is behaving weird!
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aaronpk uhoh
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aaronpk what's it doing?
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jonnybarnes I’m trying to write some phpunit tests. if I run just one specific test where I pass example.org to `getAuthorizationEndpoint()` it returns bool(false) as expected. if it gets run in the test suite where that method has been called and returned https://indieauth.com/auth already, then thats what it returns for example.org
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aaronpk it caches stuff in local variables, is that what's happening?
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jonnybarnes could be
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jonnybarnes would those variables be `self::$_headers` and `self::$_body`?
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aaronpk yeah
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jonnybarnes hmmm, I need to work out how to stop that in my tearDown method
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Schnitz hey there
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Loqi Schnitz: snarfed left you a message on 2/4 at 11:17am: fix for tumblr link rewriting is out. feel free to try it! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-04/line/1454613422392
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Schnitz right
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Schnitz checking now...
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Schnitz snarfed1: OK I posted now from Tumblr, Posseing into FB / Twitter via Bridgy using the same webmention a hrefs as before, no change from my side, lets see whether it gets thru, I'll let you know :-)
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: it definitely is your client caching values, if I uncomment the lines in fetchHead and fetchBody that check for self::$_{headers,body} then my tests pass as I would expect
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aaronpk you could just reset those to null between test runs
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aaronpk if you want to change the way the library caches things, I would gladly accept a PR :)
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jonnybarnes yeah but these are funtional tests where I have the line `$response = $this->call('GET', url, ['query' => 'params']);`
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jonnybarnes you there aaronpk?
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aaronpk ya
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jonnybarnes don’t you just love modifying code in the vendor/
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jonnybarnes this change gets my tests working
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jonnybarnes https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/3ca72a6a0f2b942efeeb
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jonnybarnes that uses arrays for caching
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jonnybarnes slghtly better maybe?
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aaronpk why not use the url for the key then?
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jonnybarnes also the $host = parse_url() appears four times, could be cleaned up
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jonnybarnes can you use a full url for an array key?
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aaronpk i think any string works
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jonnybarnes seems you are correct: https://secure.php.net/manual/en/language.types.array.php
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aaronpk wow there are some bizarre casting rules for array keys
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KevinMarks PHP is mostly bizarre casting rules
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aaronpk never knew that $array{4} was valid syntax too
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Loqi [mention] https://bear.im/ posted "IndieWeb Public Timeline Project" https://bear.im/bearlog/2016/039/indieweb-public-timeline-project.html that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-06#t1454776486971, https://indiewebcamp.com/server-sent_events, and https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed https://webmention.io/notification/364oOefxQ5vj-TgKp9KlYw
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jonnybarnes this version passes my tests as well: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/3ca72a6a0f2b942efeeb/c117c4156c6d1ff1cdb1ea8adeaee721a85c6637
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aaronpk cool. i would accept that as a PR if you can do that
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jonnybarnes however this does mean example.org/post1 and example.org/post2 are cached seperately where as you would assume they’d have the same endpoint information
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aaronpk they can have different information though
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aaronpk and since this is for indieauth, it's possible you'd be talking about two different user accounts example.com/user1 example.com/user2
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jonnybarnes fair point, working on the PR now :)
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KevinMarks jonnybarnes: where did $host come from in this line? https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/3ca72a6a0f2b942efeeb/c117c4156c6d1ff1cdb1ea8adeaee721a85c6637#file-client-php-L28
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aaronpk it's just supposed to be a cache to avoid fetching the same URL repeatedly, so better to be conservative on the caching
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KevinMarks should that be $url ?
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tantek bear++ whoa that sounds really cool! https://bear.im/bearlog/2016/039/indieweb-public-timeline-project.html
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Loqi bear has 102 karma
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aaronpk yeah I can't wait to see it!
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bear yea, trying to not get bogged down in details to get a working prototype
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jonnybarnes $host was a typo, meant to be $url
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 103 karma
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k_naming_convention (+14) "/* Unused Names */" (view diff)
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snarfed huh. i actually interpreted the idea as more of a planet, ie it would take a set of sites and merge all of their notes automatically into a single feed
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tantek snarfed, have you seen "planets" that are not *just* article aggregators?
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: PR made
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: awesome thanks
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aaronpk will review
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tantek what is a public stream?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "public stream" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10D6
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tantek wat
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tantek public stream is /public_timeline
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loqi.me created /public_stream (+28) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08/line/1454973163900 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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snarfed as opposed to bear's description where people have to submit each note separately, a la indienews
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aaronpk I really don't think the distinguishing feature of existing planets is that they aggregate blog posts
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tantek I missed that. yeah, explicit submission is not interesting to me
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snarfed bear: your proposal sounds similar to indienews, just for notes instead of articles?
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aaronpk it's just that until relatively recently, people didn't publish short notes
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tantek aaronpk: all planets I've seen seem to be just aggregating articles, not notes
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bear it's for anything that someone sends a webmention about
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aaronpk so the only thing planets *could* aggregate were articles
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tantek and when my feed was initially sending *everything* to Planet Mozilla, a few folks there got very upset and demanded I only send articles
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aaronpk ha I remember that
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tantek hence, culturally, AFAIK, a "Planet" is only articles
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tantek doesn't matter if is possible to do anything else or not
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tantek (anything is possible, so arguing from what is possible is daft - as Kevin Marks would say)
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snarfed bear: ok! so...your proposal sounds a lot like indienews?
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aaronpk i just don't see the reason to emphasize that distinction when talking about this
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bear it could be, I don't know how indienews does things
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tantek aaronpk: I do, because it LOOKS different
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tantek massive difference in looks = massive difference to most people
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tantek irrelevant if plumbing is similar underneath
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aaronpk how does it look different? there aren't any notes-only aggregators right now
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tantek aaronpk: there were - see /public_timeline
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tantek that's the point
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aaronpk twitter?
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tantek Twitter's public timeline looked TOTALLY different from any "Planet"
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aaronpk i don't even understand what you're arguing though
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tantek that it's a new thing. that "notes only" != Planet
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aaronpk why is that important?
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bear (i'm very distracted right now so will swing back around)
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tantek because massive differences in appearance are important
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aaronpk are you saying if I launch a notes-only aggregator I shouldn't call it a planet?
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KevinMarks an articles planet would fit the storycard model
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tantek aaronpk: it wouldn't make sense - "Planet" has expectations
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tantek you could call it a "TV station" and it wouldn't make sense either
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aaronpk IMO those expectations are long past the point it matters
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tantek expectations from appearance are never "long past"
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aaronpk it's not like the total population who knows what "Planet" refers to in this context was ever very large
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tantek it's the opposite, once people expect a "thing" to look a certain way, they have difficulty ever expecting it could look different
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tantek and for the rest of the population, the normal meaning of "planet" has nothing to do with a stream of notes
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tantek you could call it "sunshine" just as (in)appropriately / nonsencially
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aaronpk or Moon
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aaronpk or maybe Comet cause that sounds cooler
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tantek s/nonsencially/nonsensically
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Loqi tantek meant to say: you could call it "sunshine" just as (in)appropriately / nonsensically
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@sandhawke @MUP4 @harryhalpin Yes, lots of implementing. eg: http://indiewebcamp.com/implementations But why do you care? (twitter.com/_/status/696836215669133312)
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tantek or SETI - Streams EveryThing Indieweb :P
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sandro NICE.
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sandro (That Loqi immediately picked up a tweet mentioning IWC. I guess the twitter API supports that....)
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aaronpk hehe :) streaming API
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sandro streaming SEARCH
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aaronpk Loqi just learned how to do streaming search for blogs too!
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sandro I mean, I just used an iwc URL, not an @mention
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tantek sandro, words or URLs, both work
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tantek aaronpk, point is, people now understand an aggregation of public notes as a "public timeline" since Twitter set that expectation
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tantek so if you want to label something that does that in a way that at least *some* people will understand, "public timeline" is MUCH better than "planet"
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aaronpk i'm not totally sure I agree with that assessment though. My first thought when I hear "public timeline" is all public things posted to a specific service, not aggregated.
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tantek sandro who is @MUP4?
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tantek aaronpk: that's *good*! the "service" is called "the web".
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aaronpk does help prove a point that way
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tantek and the more we get away from ugly words like "aggregated", the better
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sandro No idea, they just addressed Harry, who addressed me
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tantek sandro, really wondering what "my decentralized social web" meant
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sandro I read that in the sense of "It's 2016, where the hell is my flying car?"
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tantek sandro - hah
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sandro but that's just how I read it
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tantek their website on their twitter profile aurore2.com redirects to a FB page that says "Sorry, this content isn't available right now / The link you followed may have expired, or the page may only be visible to an audience you're not in." (not logged in)
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tantek huh: https://twitter.com/MUP4/status/696798106147536896
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tantek Loqi?
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@MUP4 @harryhalpin @sandhawke I don't know why I remembered HumanML and OStatus all of a sudden and I want to cry 😢 (twitter.com/_/status/696798106147536896)
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tantek what is HumanML?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "HumanML" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10D7
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tantek what the what: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumanML I have never heard of this before.
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tantek https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/60/HM.Primary-Base-Spec-1.0.html
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tantek keeps going down the rabbithole: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=humanmarkup
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aaronpk here's your flying car http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nnF2yua4KIw/maxresdefault.jpg
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bear my goal for this tool was to make a very simple to push to public scrolling view of anything indieweb publically published
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tantek bear, does it require explicit webmention for every single note?
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bear just that - a stream of story-card type items that show "what's happening in the realms"
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bear this first pass it will - ala bridgy
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tantek cool - let me know when it auto-subscribes via PuSH etc.
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sandro HumanML doesn't ring a bell for me, either.
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bear one of my notes is to make it so you can register your domain and then enable h-feed pulls
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bear creates a project page for this
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sandro aaronpk, that's not the flying car I want. :-(
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tantek bear - we could treat /irc-people as the "register your domain" step
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KevinMarks I remember EmotionML
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tantek no need to "register" yet again
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bear the other reason for registering is to opt-out of display
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bear but I get what you mean
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sandro EmotionML, as I saw it, had definite use cases in voice synthesizers, at least.
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: any chance of bumping indieauth-client-php’s release version so composer update works?
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: sure
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tantek HumanML was an early 2000s OASIS attempt at an XML format to describe human communication, previously at humanmarkup.org (long abandoned / reparked domain).
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loqi.me created /HumanML (+183) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08/line/1454974097669 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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snarfed Schnitz: re your bridgy publish twitter failure just now, looks like your account is in a funny auth state. if you sign up for twitter again from http://brid.gy/ , then enable publish, that should fix it
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aaronpk what is OASIS?
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tantek hmm not sure how to best update https://indiewebcamp.com/implementations#Red_Wind :/ kylewm, want to give it a shot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OASIS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10D8
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tantek great question
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aaronpk or is it "who is OASIS?"
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: published https://packagist.org/packages/indieauth/client#0.1.12
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Schnitz checking
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tantek OASIS is an abbreviation for the Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information Standards, a consortium for making web-like standards, similar to W3C, yet more enterprise/business focused in general.
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loqi.me created /OASIS (+238) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-08/line/1454974655950 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+13) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
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Schnitz snarfed: ok but FB published worked so your fix is working!
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Schnitz snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 197 karma
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jonnybarnes thanks aaronpk
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aaronpk I have decided the next thing I need to do to further all of my projects is Scribe, a service that parses any URL, and stores an archive of what it finds there
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bear.im created /palala (+805) "initial brain dump" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: odd, I would intepret Scribe as a POSSE service
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aaronpk hmm
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tantek since scribes of old would copy from the original to a copy
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aaronpk makes sense i guess
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aaronpk is there a name for people who would archive things?
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bear I see it as a way to capture Internet Archive style the progression of an item: create, update(s), removal
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KevinMarks librarians
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KevinMarks isn't this doing exactly that?
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KevinMarks " copy from the original to a copy"
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bear archivist, documentarian
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bear historian
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Schnitz snarfed: ok re-signed into twitter with bridgy, published new post, lets see, but it should work now. Great job, thanks for the fix!
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aaronpk hmm, monks usually created the illuminated manuscripts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminated_manuscript
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jonnybarnes erm, aaronpk, there’s a typo in my pull request :cries:
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aaronpk oh no
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jonnybarnes the array_key_exists lines have one closing bracket when they should have two
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aaronpk tantek: ah I know where I got "scribe" from, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubrication
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: ah nuts. i will fix it
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jonnybarnes sorry for pushing broken code
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snarfed Schnitz: you're welcome! you need to enable publish for twitter too: https://brid.gy/twitter/belp_audio#publish-ui
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aaronpk ah there are no tests for this library. oops
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snarfed testing++
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Loqi testing has 13 karma
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tantek yeah librarian for archiving / collecting things
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Vendan heh, I guess I ignored my parser for too long
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tantek historians use libraries to do research, but don't do the archiving themselves
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Loqi Vendan: colintedford left you a message on 8/19 at 4:04pm: Did any of the issue-tracker brainstorming starting at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-17#t1431887181504 get into the wiki? I didn't see anything in search for "issue tracker", there' no "issue" page (& search results are of course noisy); nothing linked from /Github . http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-19/line/1440025491165
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Vendan only had 4~5 passes to start with
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Loqi Vendan: colintedford left you a message on 8/20 at 4:29pm: I stubbed /issue-tracker . Haven't captured your brainstorming there yet. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-20/line/1440113389545
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Vendan uh oh
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Vendan heh, I was expecting more of a storm
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Schnitz snarfed thanks for the hint
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bear the roots of the word history are about recording of events - so a historian was an event recorder
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tantek backs out of the OASIS rabbithole slowly, resisting the temptation to tweet critical things about their home page.
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bear but that has flipped in modern times
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Schnitz snarfed trying to refresh responses now manually but that doesn't seem to work, maybe no issue tho, I'll try again with responses from a new post... https://brid.gy/twitter/belp_audio#
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tantek aaronpk: does our IRC archives feed get indexed by superfeedr? ;)
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tantek wonders about infinite feed loops.
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aaronpk i was publishing a PuSH feed for them at one point
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Schnitz tantek ... interesting
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: try now
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tantek Schnitz: seriously OASIS WTF
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tantek do you have any experience with OASIS people, specs etc.?
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Schnitz not really
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Schnitz were flaky back then already, ignore mode
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tantek re: Events pages, btw, compare https://www.oasis-open.org/events/ to indiewebcamp.com/events
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tantek what can we be doing better?
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