#indiewebcamp 2016-02-16

2016-02-16 UTC
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gRegorLove Any messages, Loqi?
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Loqi grins profusely
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Loqi [mention] ןєภภเŦєг єภﻮɭยภ๔ reposted http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb https://webmention.io/notification/MP4tC6x2PtZsZn3lWzGK9w
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kevinmarks.com edited /GNU_social (+85) "/* Difficult to get information about */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+1320) "/* March */ Trying out Template:one-day-event" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: Finally worked the kinks out and have /Template:one-day-event on /Events#March Let me know what you think.
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tantek interesting, the wiki link is an absolute link, not a local wiki link (hence the lock icon next to the link)
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/Events#March
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tantek you want to generate [[event_wiki_page|event_name]]
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tantek rather than an a href for it
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gRegorLove I can't, and include the u-url on the same link. Mediawiki template limitations.
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aaronpk holy crap it works
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gRegorLove I was using Mediawiki {{localurl}} to generate <a href class="u-url"> and was going nuts trying to figure out why it stripped the href. Guess it's a limitation to encourage using the bracket syntax for internal links
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gRegorLove Template was initially set up to accept a bracketed wiki link, which I would prefer, but not sure how to get the mf2 u-url then, short of a hack/plugin for MediaWiki (not it! :) )
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aaronpk i just made a minimal "built-in" editing interface for p3k, that does only the most common functions, but it's actually a Javascript Micropub client
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aaronpk https://www.dropbox.com/s/99hvxvvzoj31f73/Screenshot%202016-02-15%2017.54.41.png?dl=0
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gRegorLove Sweet
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aaronpk this is great :)
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aaronpk had to add something to the spec to support that :)
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tantek gRegorLove: other than that it looked great
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tantek aaronpk: what's that screenshot of? Quill?
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tantek worth adding to /Quill Edit UI?
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@INC_says Type in I ,N, C into your #Roku / #RokuUK search to find some of the best #indie, #indiefilm , #indieweb , #docs , #fanfilms & more.📸🎥📹 (twitter.com/_/status/699435216230715392)
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@malcolmblaney Sharing on Planet #indieweb (https://unicyclic.com/mal/2016-02-16-Sharing_on_Planet_indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/699437422900174849)
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GWG How do you display a domain name?
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[aaronpk] Nope it's native to p3k.
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[aaronpk] I'm going to make a more thorough editing interface for Quill
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[kevinmarks] https://pierrekim.github.io/blog/2016-02-16-why-i-stopped-using-startssl-because-of-qihoo-360.html
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GWG I've already decided to switch the Let's Encrypt when my current certificates expire, or when I have time...whichever comes first.
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[aaronpk] Interesting
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[aaronpk] I've already started switching to Letsencrypt, as well as Amazon's certs.
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GWG aaronpk: With any new server project, you need a block of time.
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GWG I also don't support ALPN, which is an issue as Chrome wants to shutter NPN
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GWG aaronpk: I thought Amazon certs only work for Amazon hosted things.
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[aaronpk] I don't know what either of those are
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GWG aaronpk: You support ALPN. Don't worry
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[aaronpk] Yeah they do , but that's great when you are running Amazon things
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[aaronpk] Oh and also cloud flare
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[aaronpk] Basically the whole landscape is changing rapidly to commoditize SSL certs, and that's a good thing
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[aaronpk] I would be surprised if in two years, it's unusual that your hosting company doesn't provide SSL with a checkbox
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[aaronpk] That was meant to be a plural "your". Stupid English doesn't have enough pronouns.
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telostia hi
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cweiske kylewm, woodwind does not seem to use the video src nor the poster URL: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2016-02-16%20woodwind%20video%20broken.png
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 31 minutes ago: are you going to document the Woodwind counter-evidence as well? As well as the fact that originally RSS had this "description-as-summary only thus must retrieve permalinks" inefficiency, while both Atom/h-feed allow for full content? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-15/line/1455571999541
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 30 minutes ago: thus sites/consuming-tools *must* be inefficient with RSS, and can be equally (in)efficient with Atom/h-feed, which leaves Atom's markup-wordiness/excess-artificial-precision inefficiency (compared to h-feed). http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-15/line/1455572070610
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petermolnar good morning; some valid reasons popped up to drop startssl: https://pierrekim.github.io/blog/2016-02-16-why-i-stopped-using-startssl-because-of-qihoo-360.html in case any of you are using it
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cweiske.de edited /feed_file (+98) "/* Full-text feeds */" (view diff)
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jammy.co edited /events/2016-02-09-homebrew-website-club (+12) "/* Edinburgh */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /video (+166) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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marcthiele Good morning from Germany …
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cjk101010 hi marc
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telostia hi
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telostia anyone here into rpg games?
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telostia like jrpg in particular
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petermolnar telostia use #indiechat for non-indieweb topics, please
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tobiastom hey there.
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cjk101010 hi tobiastom
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marcthiele Hey tobiastom
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@btconf Don't forget an extra registration for the #indiewebcamp during #btconf is needed. We need the numbers for catering. https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/699547798719619072)
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marcthiele.com edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+141) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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@jkphl RT @btconf Don't forget an extra registration for the #indiewebcamp during #btconf is needed. We need the numbers for catering. https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/699555287246606336)
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Loqi [mention] mark fallows wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub https://webmention.io/notification/YUh4RBGTlb-fg9MZP5cJVA
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wwwtech.de about edited /IRC_People (+135) "Added my name" (view diff)
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wwwtech.de about created /User:Wwwtech.de_about (+341) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name">Christian Kruse</span> = <span class="p-role">Software developer</span> from <span class="p-locality">Steinfurt</span>, <span class="p-country-name">German..."" (view diff)
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pfefferle good morning all
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sknebel good morning
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webgefrickel.de edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (-68) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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aaronpk i shouldn't be seeing "no log found" when I click one of the timestamps on my bridgy page right?
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Loqi +1
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aaronpk lol thanks loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk bridgy feature request: a form that takes a supported silo URL and turns it into the bridgy URL, so that I can more easily create the bridgy URLs to manually send myself webmentions for them
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aaronpk https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/617
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snarfed interesting!
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snarfed you'd need more inputs though
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snarfed for eg replies, likes, etc
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aaronpk orly
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snarfed eg a given tweet has multiple different bridgy urls since bridgy interprets it differently depending on whether you're using it as a reply, a repost, or a normal post
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aaronpk aha
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snarfed also likes/reposts generally don't have permalinks, so you need the original post and liking/reposting user
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snarfed (you could give bridgy its own synthetic permalink, but then you're already doing much of the hard work of generating a url yourself)
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aaronpk ah I see now
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snarfed aaronpk: seems like this is kind of a half measure, and what you really want is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579 ?
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aaronpk probably :)
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aaronpk hm yes now even though i constructed the comment url with both tweet IDs, it still isn't finding my original post
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aaronpk https://brid.gy/comment/twitter/aaronpk/686998035889455104/699605447414804480
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snarfed aaronpk: any idea how much of this use case for you is due to mgirating to your new site? as opposed to something you'd want ongoing?
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aaronpk is this because i migrated?
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aaronpk the post he's replying to is pretty old
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aaronpk Jan 12
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snarfed sorry, no, not re that specific tweet. i was asking in general, how often and why you'd want to retrigger old posts/responses
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aaronpk ah, no this hasn't come up because of the site migration
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snarfed huh ok
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petermolnar snarfed is there a way to query bridgy for things published via bridgy by the source url?
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snarfed good to know
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snarfed petermolnar: source url == silo url?
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snarfed no, sorry
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snarfed (not original post url either)
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petermolnar original post url could work
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petermolnar I meant that source, not the POST target/source ( eg. brid.gy/silo/usrt
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petermolnar user)
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aaronpk uhoh. feedback loop.
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aaronpk https://kylewm.com/2016/02/liked-aaron-pareckis-post-on-aaronpareckicom-40b81ece05
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aaronpk oh I think Known is treating the "like" property as "like-of"
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aaronpk i'm publishing the list of likes I received in the "like" property, is that correct?
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tantek yes
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tantek probably an easy fix to submit to Known
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petermolnar snarfed my issue is that with bridgy publish (wordpress) I'm not always able to catch the response corrently, so I don't have the silo url needed in the syndicated list and I'd like to be able to query that somehow
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tantek what is ALPN?
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aaronpk *whew* just posted an emoji reply and syndicated it to twitter with silo.pub and everything worked! :magic:
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ALPN" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EB
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snarfed aaronpk: oh man. your twitter u-syndication on https://aaronparecki.com/2016/01/12/14/webmention is .../statuses/..., which works, but i think twitter generally uses .../status/..., and bridgy doesn't (yet) know to normalize those
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tantek what is NPN?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "NPN" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EC
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aaronpk snarfed: oh! umm
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snarfed petermolnar: oh for publish! ohh ok
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petermolnar yes :)
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aaronpk but it was finding replies before...?
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petermolnar no, for me, it's publish
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tantek what is startssl?
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snarfed aaronpk: you've always used /statuses/ ?
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Loqi StartSSL is a service that provides introductory SSL certificates for no cost, see startssl.com https://indiewebcamp.com/StartSSL
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aaronpk one way I was syndicating in my old site used that path yes
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petermolnar finding the url where the silo syndicated version is available for a webmention source {url}
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tantek petermolnar: could you add that URL of problems with startssl to https://indiewebcamp.com/StartSSL#Issues ?
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petermolnar I will, but I have to leave in ~1 min
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petermolnar later
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tantek thanks!
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aaronpk oh man, my salmention sending is a little out of control
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tantek what is out of control?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "out of control" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10ED
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aaronpk i just edited that post to correct the syndication link to /status/ instead of /statuses/ and it queued up 86 webmentions
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snarfed heh
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aaronpk one for each response URL and one for each profile image URL
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snarfed petermolnar: understood. thanks for the feature request! i'll file an issue
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snarfed aaronpk: sadly bridgy may not notice that u-syndication change, since it's below the fold in your h-feed
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aaronpk hm yeah
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aaronpk oh! that reminds me... i need to tell bridgy about my full feed now.
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tantek what full feed?
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/all
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aaronpk instead of just what i show on my home page
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aaronpk (replies don't go to my home page)
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tantek aaronpk: interesting. we should figure out a way to do h-feed discovery so that /readers can find your full feed and not have to retrieve each permalink URL (cweiske's criticism).
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/618
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aaronpk i meant "full" as in all content, but i still don't show the full article contents on that page
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aaronpk tho maybe i should
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tantek yeah!
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aaronpk i'm trying to remember the original reason i didn't include the full article contents in feed views
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tantek do you include full contents in RSS or Atom?
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Loqi [bridgy] Joschi Kuphal 吉 replied '@pfefferle *sigh* Sorry, voll nerviger TYPO3-Bug. Geht jetzt wieder (mal sehen, ...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/699640488727613440)
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aaronpk i don't have rss or atom feeds anymore
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tantek whoa
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tantek not even through a converter?
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aaronpk i forgot to add the converter URL before i launched
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tantek interesting, perhaps we should start /feed-file-quits
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aaronpk i really don't want to write any code for it, but i should add back a feed through a converter
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aaronpk probably just what's on https://aaronparecki.com/articles though
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tantek alright I'm going to document GNU Social's js;dr
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tantek because frankly, at least Twitter is not js;dr :P
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snarfed aaronpk: feel free to just point directly to a https://granary-demo.appspot.com/ conversion url
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aaronpk perfect
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aaronpk i wish it was easier to preview rss feeds
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aaronpk so i can tell what this actually looks like in readers
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snarfed me too!!!
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aaronpk wow what a bug-filled morning
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snarfed wow actually granary's mf2 => atom fails pretty spectacularly on aaronpk's articles :(
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snarfed heh
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aaronpk https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1245
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aaronpk does it? i mean i don't have article text there, so...
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snarfed ohhhhh
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snarfed you're right then, nm, it's fine
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snarfed i only compared to a permalink
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aaronpk i'm not actually sure what to do about that
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snarfed phew
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@jkphl @pfefferle Ach menno. Jetzt ist noch mehr kaputt ... Der hier sollte zuverlässig funktionieren: http://nueww.de/blog/article/Post/show/indieweb-unsere-daten-unser-netz-96/d9b831d86e233f016654c5f4cf56618d/ (twitter.com/_/status/699643443325308928)
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aaronpk I want to see a compact list of my articles because i often scroll through and look for old ones to send around
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aaronpk but I would also be happy to have https://aaronparecki.com/articles show the full post contents so it's easier to follow in a reader, and so that it looks like there's actual content there
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snarfed aaronpk: yup i do the same with https://snarfed.org/archive
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snarfed maybe two different feeds? or query param?
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aaronpk hm that's a though, "archive"
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aaronpk i could make a totally different view that's actually optimized for finding things in the archive
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snarfed heh, which mine totally isn't
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aaronpk it kinda is! i mean you can always ctrl+f that page to find stuff
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aaronpk it requires no extra clicks to get to older stuff
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tantek.com edited /GNU_social (+656) "re-order sections, putting some positive sections nearer the top, history to bottom, add Issues / js dr and note about at least invisible content there with mf2" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /GNU_social (+33) "/* js dr */ linky" (view diff)
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aaronpk wow seeing webmention.io getting hammered makes me really want to redo it and run it on not my infrastructure :P
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Zegnat What’s hammering it?
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aaronpk a lot of home page mentions of @t from bridgy, but also it looks like someone's script went a little rogue and is sending the same 4 webmentions over and over
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snarfed notmyinfrastructure++
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aaronpk like 2-3 times a second
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Loqi notmyinfrastructure has 1 karma
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tantek I might help with that soon by taking my Twitter account private for previously discussed reasons, including reasons why Stephen Fry quit Twitter.
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aaronpk oh yeah haha
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tantek Or would Bridgy keep sending @t home page mentions?
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tantek even to / of a private account?
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tantek I suppose I can help test this :D
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Zegnat a, haywire scripts are upsetting, true
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snarfed aaronpk tantek alternatively let me know if you want me to special case those @t mention wms. i know the signal to noise ratio makes them almost useless.
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tantek aaronpk: is the haywire script from a single IP? or DDOS?
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snarfed would be well in line with good spam/moderation handling in general including lots of heuristics, many hand tuned
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@jkphl Awesome: Already 20+ registrations for our @indiewebcamp in Nuremberg! Half the places are taken. Got yours? http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/699650347325898752)
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tantek (sorry to be such a problem case snarfed)
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aaronpk it's from a single IP, it's someone's blog sending webmentions for indiewebcamp events (i wont' mention names to avoid placing blame)
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snarfed tantek: not at all! doesn't cause bridgy any problems.
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snarfed fwiw, if you took @t private, bridgy would stop doing anything for it. (intentionally.)
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tantek got it. that's what I figured.
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tantek would just mean I'd have to implement my own backfeed support
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tantek and then I could share what code I had to write to filter the nonsense
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tantek I'm considering taking @t private, and then occasionally using @tantek to publicly syndicate specific posts if I feel the need
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snarfed tantek: i'd be happy to whitelist @t for backfeed
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tantek what would that mean?
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tantek still backfeed it even though it's private?
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snarfed yes
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snarfed with or without @-mentions
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@pabloawad “Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere” https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/699652849672835072)
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loqi.me created /Giphy (+101) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk, tantek - I used KartikPrabhu's hfeed2atom proxy, but it's down since some time
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cweiske so I no longer receive updates from aaron in tt-rss
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cweiske and tantek, I thought we had h-feed linking already http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#rel_feed
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cweiske http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-feed
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KevinMarks +q issues from external postings about as2
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kylewm KevinMarks: wrong channel?
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ben_thatmustbeme yup
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KevinMarks oopd
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KevinMarks this is intersting - I wonder why the pervious silos all abandonded their chat networks, letting new ones grow http://arstechnica.com/business/2016/02/the-fall-and-rise-and-rise-and-rise-of-chat-networks/
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aaronpk what's interesting to me is why AIM and the early IM networks didn't end up getting ported to mobile platforms
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aaronpk I wonder if it was because the wave of web-based things like Facebook and Twitter took over in between
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sknebel and chat on early mobile platforms sucked
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sknebel before google/apple running push servers
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sknebel well, blackberry maybe
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tantek AIM fell victim to classic innovator's dilemma, they were asleep when web-based-as-an-option chat took off
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tantek whether Twitter, Gtalk, etc.
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tantek and frankly, only FB has made realtime chat "work" well (responsively, low latency) across web, native apps, etc.
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tantek I wouldn't be surprised if FB messenger was a primary driver behind the work on / architecture of the React framework
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aaronpk google hangouts is pretty good now
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aaronpk oh nevermind, i still can't get group chats on my desktop
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tantek sknebel: blackberry never made the jump to web-based-chat-as-an option either
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tantek again, innovator's dilemma from their lead in low-latency BB-only "blackberry messenger"
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tantek (the speed of BBM was unreal)
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kylewm hangouts annoys the crap out of me
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KevinMarks initially I think it was not spooking the carriers about SMS revenue
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tantek kylewm: yeah hangouts is a pretty sad excuse for a Google product
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KevinMarks apple should have ported iChat to iPhone at launch
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, kylewm, I don't think its that bad, it has some problems for sure
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tantek KevinMarks: right, because fear is what causes winners to win. \ :/ /
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tantek KevinMarks: apple is still behind because there is no web UI to iMessage
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KevinMarks 9 years ago: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2007/01/iphones-great-step-back-from-ichat.html
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, kylewm, much of that is because its based on some proprietary company's software they used for group video.... Vidyo i believe it was called
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sknebel I'm not sure the web-based thing is *that* important
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tantek sknebel: it's enough of a difference on the margin
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sknebel on mobile we use apps, and most people were used to having messengers installed locally
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tantek being able to use your desktop/laptop without having to install something is *very* convenient
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sknebel it certainly helps to get to all platforms though
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KevinMarks they're going to move it to webrtc
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tantek for reaching tons of people who may not have whatever mobile (cr)app
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KevinMarks but that doesn't work on ios
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sknebel Facebook chat got there because it was in a website people already visited, and neatly made them spend more time there
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sknebel now there is slack
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KevinMarks google really dropped the ball on that, there are so many sms apps on android
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tantek yet
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sknebel what other important web-based messengers am I missing?
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KevinMarks twitter had xmpp and sms based integration, and let it rot
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sknebel and pre-web had kinda lost already when mobile really came around...
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sknebel so guess tantek is kinda right, they would have needed web to retain market share long enough to get on mobile
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KevinMarks my sidekick ran AIM in 2003
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tantek I have yet to reinstall Slack on my reset-to-blank-with-OS iPod touch and I don't miss it
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tantek I haven't any critical need for Slack
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KevinMarks we used aim like slack at technorati
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tantek which was kinda annoying TBH
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sknebel My surrounding group got smartphones in 2010
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sknebel as in, first half of 2010, high-school: 1 person had one (winCE based)
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tantek but that might have been a cultural problem, not a tech problem
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sknebel 2011: everybody goes to university, large number has one
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KevinMarks well, we were using sidekicks as ops pagers, so it grew from that
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singpolyma my company uses slack, but I join using my normal IM client. I never use their UI. the bridge is ... good enough, but not great
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cweiske I use the xmpp bridge for slack, but it sucks
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cweiske really
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cweiske I had 5 bug reports and 3 feature requests which they closed as wontfix
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singpolyma sucks so much less than the bridge for hipchat did. but yes
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sknebel I really wish the modern mobile messengers had desktop interfaces as well
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sknebel but many of them don't even allow multiple devices per user
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singpolyma When I asked the Kik CEO about that he specifically said that they only want one device so that the "messages always go to the device you actually have, just like SMS"
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aaronpk "just like SMS" heh. my SMSs go to 4 devices now.
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singpolyma aaronpk: ooh. what system are you using for that?
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aaronpk well, iMessage go to 4, SMS to 2 mostly, sometimes 3
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sknebel heh. means that most mobile messages go to the one device I have... left at home
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aaronpk my main SMS number is google voice
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singpolyma ah, right
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aaronpk but now apple forwards SMSs via imessage
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aaronpk so the ones sent to my iphone number end up on all my computers and my ipad
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singpolyma oh, interesting
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tantek yes, the goal should be to supplant and replace SMS
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aaronpk i actually have a computer at home which all it does is get a copy of my iMessages and archive them in HTML files
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tantek let the silos do the R&D (including UX) for how to do that, and the we fast follow with our own indieweb sites
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tantek ^^^ exactly aaronpk. not a big step from that to turning that computer into your own personal real time message router
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aaronpk that is definitely in my plans! :)
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singpolyma I basically never get SMS, but I have a viteltiy SMS-to-XMPP number set up for the few times when I do
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KevinMarks thats what annoys me about whatsapp, it's tied to sim
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sknebel for ICQ/AIM/XMPP/SMS... that's doable. not very well documented often, but doable. but getting whatsapp/Telegram/Signal/... in the mix
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singpolyma sknebel: moar bridges!
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KevinMarks but clearly the id simplicilty of it works for a lot of people
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singpolyma I think libpurple has whatsapp/telegram/facebook/skype plugins now
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snarfed libpurple++ is great
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Loqi libpurple has 1 karma
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snarfed (...but sadly connecting it to whatsapp accounts is extremely difficult. i've never managed to.)
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singpolyma my upcoming strategy is to bridge to people primarily through SMS, since they still all have that (mostly)
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tantek singpolyma: SMS has bad international portability, and depends (without Google Voice) on institutional / regulated monopolies, thus it makes sense to move away from it
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singpolyma I'm not saying SMS is good, just nicer to work with than a lot of other options, and has better penetration with users I need to communicate with
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sknebel everybody has their own local distribution of protocols that are relevant
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sknebel I still use ICQ to talk to some people
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singpolyma for sure
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singpolyma for me it's almost a 100% SMS and Facebook overlap. Except for close friends and close family, who are XMPP
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sknebel aaronpk: you mentioned you had looked at matrix.org, right? Do you think that's going to be a candidate for the core of a "personal message router"?
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tantek singpolyma: I've used iMessage + carrier-MMS-emails-filtered-to-a-special-gmail to replace SMS.
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aaronpk sknebel: no, i'm planning on something way more low tech
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sknebel low-tech++ ;)
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Loqi low-tech has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme the rumor is that google is going to be phasing out hangouts
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ben_thatmustbeme or at least moving sms out of it
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singpolyma they already moved sms out of it
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ben_thatmustbeme umm. no
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singpolyma well. they told users to stop using it for sms
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aaronpk nah my google voice SMSs go to hangouts
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singpolyma it technically still works
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ben_thatmustbeme its always been optional
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singpolyma Sure, but when my fiancee starts her phone up and it has a huge banner saying "Use this other app for SMS now please" it doesn't seem optional to her
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tantek hangouts primarily sucks because they dropped support for (handling of) gtalk: and xmpp: URLs
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ben_thatmustbeme they just had a single pop-up to give the let people know its an option for those that don't like it
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ben_thatmustbeme though i never got that, cause Google-Fi
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aaronpk i don't even know what popups you're talking about
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aaronpk i don't have an android phone is probably why
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singpolyma http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/01/google-hangouts-7-0-for-android-asks-users-to-stop-using-it-for-sms/
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ben_thatmustbeme singpolyma beat me to the googling that
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ben_thatmustbeme was about to post the same article
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tantek hah
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singpolyma was in my browser history
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tantek I bet this is the result of some political infighting inside Google
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ben_thatmustbeme but yeah, i'm on google-fi so my sms and mms comes up on my desktop
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tantek Hangouts team: hey, we're *the* messaging app for Google now, so, Android team, we're going to handle SMSs
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ben_thatmustbeme on my desktop in hangout that is
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tantek Android team: really? um, ok, does it really work?
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sparverius dammit i finally switched to hangouts for both.
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that seems pretty likely
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tantek Hangouts team: yes of course it works! And it's one unified messaging UX! simpler for users!
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tantek Android team: ok, sounds good.
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tantek (insert months of bad Hangouts latency, performance, confusion)
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tantek Android team: so... we've come to the conclusion that Hangouts is too slow, can you fix it?
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tantek Hangouts team: what do you mean? works great on our (desktop, laptop, over-powered android) devices on superfast wifi networks at Google HQ
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tantek Android team: no, seriously, you need to fix the launch latency, the contact list latency, the recent conversations latency, the push-message unreliability, etc.
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tantek Hangouts team: sure we'll get to that
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tantek (insert months of failing to fix Hangouts)
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tantek Android team: You know what, Hangouts sucks so bad that it makes our SMS and thus phones look bad compared to iPhones, we're going to make our own non-sucky Messages app
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tantek Hangouts team: what? no way we'll fight this.
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tantek Android team: you will lose
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tantek that's what I expect the dialog went like
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kylewm does anyone have thoughts on how a micropub client could tell the difference between a "checkin" and a note with location?
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tantek kylewm: that's a classic troll ;)
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tantek (around these parts :) )
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aaronpk what does that have to do with a micropub client?
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tantek gets the virtual popcorn
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singpolyma This gives google teams way too much credit. Based on what I saw when working there, it's more like "Hey, we just switched SMS users to Hangouts, mmmkay?" for awhile, no one notices, then "wait, how did this happen? I'mma change it back"
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tantek gives Loqi virtual popcorn
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Loqi :)
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tantek what is Hangouts?
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kylewm aaronpk: sorry micropub endpoint, not the client
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Loqi Hangouts is Google's messaging tool that supports chat, groups, SMS/MMS (on Android), and videoconferencing https://indiewebcamp.com/Hangouts
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singpolyma kylewm: obviously you just add <this-is-a-checkin-my-friend xmlns="http://urn:123:idon'tknowhowtoURI/.zip" /> to your SOAP envelope
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kylewm tantek: definitely not intentional trolling. came up organically in https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1227
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tantek.com edited /Hangouts (+140) "Issues, SMS drama" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: ok that's a legitimate reason to take another look at this
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tantek who is danito?
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cweiske do we have microformats for marking up books?
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tantek cweiske: do you mean a whole book online?
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cweiske I just put my library online and thought it would be nice to have some semantic markup; http://cweiske.de/books.htm
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tantek cweiske: you want h-cite, since those are not actual books, but rather citations of books :)
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singpolyma tantek++
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cweiske hm
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Loqi tantek has 274 karma
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tantek cweiske: also, good for you for publishing your library! that's pretty awesome
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tantek cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 45 karma
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tantek what is an events list?
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Loqi An events listing is a page or portion of a page (like on a homepage) of an indieweb site that shows a list of events, perhaps including some subset of their event, invitation, and RSVP posts, displayed as a list or grid of some sort https://indiewebcamp.com/events_list
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cweiske should prevent people from giving me books I already have
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tantek looks for a similar example and finds a typo, likely his
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cweiske tantek, http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite says its for online publications only
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tantek cweiske: yes I should update that, as use has spread beyond
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kylewm really the only difference between a checkin and a note+location is your intention in posting it...
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tantek kylewm: there's a lot of previous discussion on this topic on /checkin and related pages - have you read through those?
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tantek more discussion than merits a "the only difference" summary
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, apparently google dropped Vidyo at some point for its own protocol
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ben_thatmustbeme recently they added webRTC though
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cweiske should I use u-uid for the ISBN?
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tantek.com edited /events_list (+1) "fix odd typo with rewording" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske: that makes sense
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kylewm tantek: i have
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tantek kylewm: does Known support /venue posts/pages ?
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kylewm no
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tantek takes a look at h-cite
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: thats why my endpoint and client has a type field mp-type
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cweiske there we have it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcweiske.de%2Fbooks.htm
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ben_thatmustbeme i have mp-type: checkin vs mp-type:note
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kylewm that sounds pretty good to me
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tantek thought he solved this problem at some point
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kylewm the wiki suggests "p-location venue" as the differentiator
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kylewm but Instagram photos frequently have a venue associated
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aaronpk i post photos with venue tags all the time, and they are definitely not checkins
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: some argued the difference was insignificant and it was sort of dropped mostly as people were getting rid of post types
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ben_thatmustbeme but there was never a resolution
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KevinMarks also, google calling their new SMS app Messenger is a big passive agressive troll on FB
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tantek nah, BBM had it first ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme on another note, what are people's thoughts on JF2. I'd love to hear thoughts on use
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm hoping to redo a bunch of my stuff at IWCMIT to use the JF2 version instead
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I could be convinced to add a jf2 "feed" if that's interesting to consuming code
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kylewm I'm not necessarily crazy about properties being optionally lists .. it seems like you'd have to do a lot more checking in consuming code
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KevinMarks https://play.google.com/store/search?q=messenger&c=apps
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm sort of torn on this, having a seperate feed for jf2 allows for people to have different jf2 and mf2
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: yeah, that has been a little bit confusing. I'm thinking it may have to move to just string or object instead of string, object, or array
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aaronpk my interest in jf2 is to have something easier to consume than mf2
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aaronpk which to me also means things like restricting where the author of an entry can show up
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aaronpk like it would be great if a valid jf2 feed only had one place an author of a post could appear
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tantek reviews his queue: h-cite, checkin+comment vs note+loc, checkin+photo vs photo+loc, jf2/mf2json optional list vs always list
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tantek inserts personal library there somewhere
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cweiske.de edited /h-cite (+154) "indieweb examples" (view diff)
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KevinMarks tantek's jf2 will be complicated
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2tojs2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unmung.com%2Fmf2%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftantek.com%26html%3D%26pretty%3Don&pretty=on
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: regarding adding a jf2 "feed" i'm somewhat concerned it would be just going back to another feed file, the question then becomes, why do you need the MF2 then
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, KevinMarks, you always use {'children':[....]} already?
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tantek cweiske thanks for adding that to /h-cite. I've updated the microformats wiki page to explicitly mention references to physical books in the http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Offline_Citations section
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aaronpk on a totally unrelated note, what's the best way to replace relative image URLs with absolute URLs in my articles when displaying them?
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aaronpk this is one of the reasons I don't have article content on anything except the article permalinks
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aaronpk the posts are written with relative image URLs, so I need to munge that into a full URL in order to display it on a page like / or /articles
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tantek do any of the /read silos support a personal library feature?
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tantek !tell gRegorLove in your use of /Goodreads have you found a "personal library" feature where it keeps track of the books you *have*? Or only books you have *read*?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell rhiaro,tommorris do you keep a list of all the books you own? do you publish that list anywhere? what do you call it? personal library?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Loqi what's my queue?
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek finds http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/catalog
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tantek finds it unarchived so goes to archive it
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aaronpk considers a personal q+ feature for Loqi
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Loqi yo
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tantek.com edited /2015/Books!_Metadata!_Microformats! (+4209) "archive notes from session etherpad" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: yes Goodreads has a checkbox when you add a book for whether or not you own it (which always seemed like a weird brag)
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singpolyma why add a book you don't own? Just because you kinda like it?
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tantek kylewm: does it have a URL for you to brag about your personal library of all the books you own?
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tantek singpolyma: because experiences > stuff
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kylewm checking
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tantek and while you're checking, I'll look at checkins
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kylewm weird, it does not seem to be a public URL... so you can only look at your own list of "owned books" here https://www.goodreads.com/owned_books/user
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tantek what's the name/title of that page?
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tantek like in the h1 and title?
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tantek !tell snarfed ok let's do it. whitelist @t, instagram.com/tantek, and facebook.com/tantek.celik for backfeed even though private
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed tantek: wow ok!
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tantek does anyone else publish a "personal library" or list of "owned books" or "owned media" or "stuff"?
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tommorris tantek: I keep a list in Delicious Library (Mac app) but don't publish it
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Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: do you keep a list of all the books you own? do you publish that list anywhere? what do you call it? personal library? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455654923934
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snarfed expects the social/personal reactions of tantek going silo-private will be a bigger deal than anything technical
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snarfed stocks up on popcorn
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tommorris Used to keep it all in BibTex database.
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snarfed tantek: yes, linked from https://snarfed.org/lists
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KevinMarks am I using children wrong?
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tantek KevinMarks: that's too deep of a question for me
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KevinMarks oh, in category?
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snarfed tantek: btw this whitelisting won't be able to differentiate levels of privacy per silo
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KevinMarks hm, I thought I was following the jf2 spec there
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snarfed ie it will backfeed all responses, even if a human could still look at one of your posts and say "that's obviously still private"
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snarfed just a heads up
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tantek snarfed totally ok, I'm willing to be the canary burdened with figuring out the subtleties
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snarfed ok!
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snarfed also tantek i assume might as well do g+ too, even if you're inactive?
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snarfed oh and flickr?
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tantek.com edited /read (+120) "/* Other Examples */ snarfed's list of books" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed, yes, G+ too. Not sure about Flickr's privacy controls
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snarfed ok!
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aaronpk okay i'm taking the plunge
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aaronpk switching to showing full article contents in my feed views
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singpolyma aaronpk: woo! full content everywhere!
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tantek.com edited /read (+28) "/* Other Examples */ expand scope" (view diff)
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tantek !tell cweiske have you read all the books on http://cweiske.de/books.htm ? if so, could you add it as an example here: https://indiewebcamp.com/read#Other_Examples
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk well now granary is showing the relative image URL in the feed. is that going to work in readers?
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aaronpk i doubt it, since the only reference to aaronparecki.com is the <id> element
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tantek we explored this a few days ago, and KevinMarks pointed out that RSS didn't specify how to handle relative URLs in embedded HTML
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aaronpk not even urls with an absolute path but no hostname?
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tantek nope
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KevinMarks feedparser works hard to get it right following xml rules, but it's tricky
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aaronpk ouch
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KevinMarks https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/resolving-relative-links.html
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aaronpk well, i think granary can do the resolving then, since it knows the URL the HTML came from
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, et al. btw feel free to open up issues with JF2 https://github.com/dissolve/jf2/issues
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KevinMarks right. that's the problem, if you don't have Content-Location you're in trouble
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aaronpk wow, a totally arbitrary subset of my old articles didn't get their images imported correctly when I did the batch import
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tantek kylewm: some more thinking / discussion on checkin vs photo here: https://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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aaronpk looks like i've got some cleanup to do. good thing i left a copy of my old site online.
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aaronpk i decided to start a convention of leaving a snapshot of my old sites online on a subdomain of the year i switched away from it
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KevinMarks thats a very good idea
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aaronpk so 2015.aaronparecki.com and 2008.aaronparecki.com are up right now
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kylewm spiderpigged?
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aaronpk not quite, but soon, after i'm confident enough with things running on the new stack
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kylewm that's quite a nice idea, i should definitely do that with my site
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snarfed aaronpk: tantek: re relative urls, granary outputs atom, not rss :P
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sknebel What is spiderpigged?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "spiderpigged" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EF
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tantek what is spiderpig?
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Loqi Spiderpig is a web crawler for archiving a website as static HTML files https://indiewebcamp.com/Spiderpig
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aaronpk 2012.aaronparecki.com is spiderpigged because it was mediawiki and I don't want that software on this server
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snarfed ...aww, which led me to http://atomenabled.org/ , which is evidently compromised :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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snarfed (the minecraft section)
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aaronpk spiderpigged is /spiderpig
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loqi.me created /spiderpigged (+22) "prompted by sknebel https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455657842196 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi [indieweb] "Would love to be able to Pin a @withknown item (status,post,etc..) on the head of my site" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-love-to-be-able-to-pin-a-withknown-item
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tantek snarfed what?!? atomenabled.org got owned?
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snarfed tantek: you tell me. looks like it
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snarfed (subtly)
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snarfed aha. from http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#aboutThisDocument : "http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/ may be used to control how relative URIs are resolved."
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aaronpk snarfed: any reason not to have granary replace the relative URLs with absolute URLs in the conversion?
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snarfed aaronpk: or set xml:base?
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aaronpk i guess
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aaronpk any idea how well that's supported in rss/atom readers?
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snarfed nope
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snarfed if you're talking about fully qualifying individual elem values, sure
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tantek snarfed, looks like a compromised WordPress install, per the "twentytwelve" references in the source
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snarfed aaronpk: if you mean inside the HTML content, i'd be reluctant
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snarfed tantek: whee
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@RikMende Would love to Pin a @withknown item (status,post,etc..) on the head of my site & the ability to style it #indieweb http://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-love-to-be-able-to-pin-a-withknown-item (twitter.com/_/status/699707035923963904)
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petermolnar re: singpolyma "I think libpurple has whatsapp/telegram/facebook/skype" 3rd party, yes; I have them running on my bitlbee server
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tantek kylewm: re @RikMende's post
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tantek what is a pinned post?
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Loqi pin or pinning is a feature that allows the author to choose a post to put at the top of their profile (or homepage) which is then called a pinned or sticky post https://indiewebcamp.com/pinned_post
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petermolnar re SMS: I hope they'll stay alive forever; Europe would be unusable without it due to roaming
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KevinMarks see the feedparser link I posted
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tantek petermolnar: the rest of the world SMS is unusable due to lack of roaming
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tantek so it is already there
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petermolnar if I'm abroad ( EU, we're talking about a few hundred kilometres when abroad ) I don't have data and if I do need to send something, SMS is always there
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kylewm oh that's funny, redwind was still running on my server, just wasn't exposed
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singpolyma petermolnar: this is a bug in the carries, thoguh
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petermolnar ( I have a backup thingy running that copies it to my mail account though once it has data connection )
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kylewm now up at 2015.kylewm.com
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KevinMarks snarfed: I'd recommend resolving the urls yourself, given the Content-Header issues
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snarfed KevinMarks: ok. got a link for those issues? i don't see Content-Header mentioned in https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/resolving-relative-links.html
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snarfed or even better feel free to add it to https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/78
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snarfed oh, Content-Location?
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aaronpk kylewm: don't forget to set robots.txt to deny all
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snarfed honestly i'm still leaning toward xml:base. i really don't want to try to intelligently rewrite relative URLs inside arbitrary HTML
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snarfed kylewm: cool!
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aaronpk kylewm: or if you want to still allow archive.org to crawl it, http://2012.aaronparecki.com/robots.txt
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tantek kylewm: would you consider a 404 handler on kylewm.com that checked to see if 2015.kylewm.com has the path and serve it if it does?
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tantek (perhaps log it as a to-do item?)
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tantek same for you aaronpk
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronpk i am pretty confident i got all my redirects working properly, so i dont think i will
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KevinMarks yes, content location sorry
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tantek aaronpk: I'll let you know if I find one :)
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aaronpk also i have a fallback where if a post matches the URL structure of the old site and no post is found, it redirects to the day of the post in case i missed on
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tantek kylewm has his checkins and venues
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www.svenknebel.de edited /sandstorm (+370) (view diff)
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tantek (that 404 currently)
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tantek aaronpk do you use ownyourcheckins ?
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aaronpk no
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tantek is your use of Swarm still purely silo separate from your site?
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aaronpk i don't have any concept of checkins on my site yet. it's been a "todo" for years, but i haven't solved a couple fundamental issues yet
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tantek right, I'm working on those fundamental issues ;)
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tantek I still think *this* is a checkin: https://aaronparecki.com/2014/05/06/12/iiw-indieweb
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aaronpk one is the checkin+photo vs photo+location
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aaronpk nah that's not a checkin because 1) I already had checked in before I posted that photo, and 2) that post would look the same if I had posted it a day later
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tantek "already had checked in" - no evidence of that on your site
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KevinMarks when I posse from instagram to Swarm, that creates a checkin in swarm - is it one instagram If I don't?
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aaronpk yeah no evidence on my site because i don't post checkins yet!
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tantek thus it's effectively a checkin on your site
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aaronpk no, because i checked in on foursquare
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aaronpk and if i *had* had checkins on my site, i still would have posted that photo at that time
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tantek but the "I" there is disconnected, so that can't be used as evidence
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tantek the argument of "would look the same if I had posted it a day later" is interesting
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tantek there may be an opportunity here for behavioral design
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KevinMarks I noticed that Swarm now prompts for 'missed checkins'
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aaronpk yes, I am reluctant to post photos with venue tags significantly later than they were taken, but I do end up doing that. however for me a checkin isn't a checkin unless the timestamp matches the date i was there
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KevinMarks a latergram could be a retrospective checkin?
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tantek that's a good criteria in general, though some of us (myself included) use "Post(squares)." for after the fact checkins
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tantek due to Swarm limitations
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aaronpk i have done that occasionally when i've forgotten to check in right away, but i would prefer to backdate the checkin
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tantek me too
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tantek thus we can design accordingly
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aaronpk it's actually a note to myself to correct those dates when i import my checkins finally
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tantek hence the need for timestamped offline checkins
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aaronpk definitely
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aaronpk ( for reference, here is the corresponding checkin on foursquare https://foursquare.com/aaronpk/checkin/536904e6498e078bfb4b6106 )
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ben_thatmustbeme SEE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE kylewm! it was a troll :P
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tantek I am thinking that photo > venue > text > geo/adr
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aaronpk the foursquare permalink doesn't show the time, but the list view does. it was posted at 8:51am
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tantek attempts to cut the checkin-post-type knot
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aaronpk that photo was posted at 11:19am
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tantek a-ha!
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KevinMarks hm, looks like foursquare stomps the initial checkin time with the photo time if you post a photo in the smae place
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aaronpk orly
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aaronpk can you use that to backdate checkins then?
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tantek goes to resolves some Post Type Discovery issues
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KevinMarks not sure if it is the timestamp from the photo or the time instagram calls them
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KevinMarks if you go to your userpage on the swarm app it gives you ghost checkins thta you can add
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KevinMarks just posted an image to slack, but looks like loqi doesn't xfer
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aaronpk sadly no, they don't show up as chat messages in the api
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KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/files/kevinmarks/F0MKNRX9S/screenshot_20160216-135420.png
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@withknown Why we built Known: http://werd.io/2015/why-is-known-the-best-way-to-solve-your-community #opensource #edtech #indieweb #openweb (twitter.com/_/status/699713973650792448)
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@ebot70 Top hashtags for @withknown: #edtech #indieweb #opensource #edtechbridge #openweb http://www.redaelli.org/matteo-blog/projects/ebottwitter/ (twitter.com/_/status/699713988024799234)
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davidpeach ello
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aaronpk public link for the image: https://slack-files.com/T03QR2B2T-F0MKNRX9S-0985740c61
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davidpeach I wonder if anybody can help me with a bridgy issue?
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snarfed davidpeach: sure
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tantek davidpeach do you use /ello ?
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Loqi [indieweb] "ebot70 : @ebot70" by ebot70 https://twitter.com/ebot70/status/699713988024799234
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Loqi [indieweb] "Known : @withknown" by Known https://twitter.com/withknown/status/699713973650792448
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tantek KevinMarks: You need to sign in to see this page. :(
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@mattervc RT @withknown Why we built Known: http://werd.io/2015/why-is-known-the-best-way-to-solve-your-community #opensource #edtech #indieweb #openweb (twitter.com/_/status/699714530411024384)
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aaronpk tantek: check the link i posted
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davidpeach ello was short for hello. hehe
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tantek KevinMarks: doesn't prove anything. could just be they display dt-updated in list view
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davidpeach hi snarfed how are you?
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snarfed davidpeach: ok! what's up?
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davidpeach It seems bridgy is sending the same replies multiple times.
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snarfed davidpeach: interesting! it tries hard to send only once, but definitely not guaranteed
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+1322) "/* Issues */ resolve most issues, add Feature consideration checkin brainstorm, headings for issues" (view diff)
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snarfed webmentions in general don't guarantee that
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snarfed and bridgy actually does intentionally resend sometimes, eg if someone edits a comment
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davidpeach could i link my homepage to see if I've done anything silly in markup?
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snarfed should be unrelated. what's your bridgy user page?
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davidpeach sec
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tantek aaronpk, kylewm for your consideration, I think I've figured out a good answer (and can provide reasoning for all the decisions) https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Feature_consideration_checkin
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tantek (I knew I was close to this last time I considered it in my head)
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aaronpk is intrigued
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snarfed davidpeach: do you mean you're seeing duplicate bridgy wms rendered on your site?
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davidpeach https://brid.gy/twitter/davidpeach1#
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@benwerd @ElissaBeth @Brave Asking because that would be an awesome way to help open source projects and #indieweb authors be self-sufficient. (twitter.com/_/status/699715574478180352)
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Loqi [indieweb] "@ElissaBeth @Brave Asking because that would be an awesome way to help open source projects and #indieweb authors be self-sufficient." by Ben Werdmüller http://werd.io/2016/elissabeth-brave-asking-because-that-would-be-an-awesome-way
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davidpeach bridgy is hitting my site multiple times and im getting multiples of the same replies - hours apart
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KevinMarks nope, I checked the api, they overwrite the createdAt timestamp for the checkin, even though the photo has a separate one
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snarfed davidpeach: what software runs your site?
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tantek KevinMarks: wow that's bad
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davidpeach its a laravel-based one. built myself
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aaronpk laravel++
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Loqi laravel has 1 karma
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snarfed davidpeach: cool. you'll probably want to implement some basic de-duping. http://indiewebcamp.com/de-dupe#de-duplication
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snarfed i can also check on bridgy's side if you send an example
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KevinMarks it makes sense for their primary use case of 'when was kevin most recently confirmed there'
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www.svenknebel.de edited /archival_copy (+145) "added Perma.cc and WebCite" (view diff)
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davidpeach oki ill add some de-dupeness in
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davidpeach Anybody know whether there's a brighton-based indiewebcamp in plans this year? I missed last years one.
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davidpeach im actually near Birmingham UK but would love to go to Brighton
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tantek davidpeach: I think there should be! ping adactio about it
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tantek davidpeach: feel free to add a Brighton section inside this: https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#2016 and note exactly what you said - "would love to go to Brighton"
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davidpeach will do. thanks tantek
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gRegorLove tantek, kylewm: I did find when logged in on Goodreads I can view a friend's books and under settings turn on the "Owned" column and sort by that. But it's not a very obvious user flow to get to that.
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 39 minutes ago: in your use of /Goodreads have you found a "personal library" feature where it keeps track of the books you *have*? Or only books you have *read*? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455654883736
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gRegorLove Apparently my books are public and you can change that setting even when not authed, but there's no sort option when not authed. E.g. https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/4314314-gregor
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tantek how can you tell which you actually own / have?
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gRegorLove Settings > select "owned"
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gRegorLove If you're logged in (and presumably connected as a friend?), you can then sort by the owned column, which either has a checkmark or is blank.
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tantek not logged in
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gRegorLove If you're not logged in, doesn't appear they let you sort. Not sure why.
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tantek I don't even see an owned column
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gRegorLove You have to turn it on under Settings at the top right. Sometimes you have to turn it off and on -- UI doesn't always refresh for me.
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gRegorLove And very well may be js;dr functionality
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gRegorLove Yep, "Settings" link does nothing with js off. With it on it slides down a list of columns that can be turned on/off
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