#indiewebcamp 2016-02-16

2016-02-16 UTC
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gRegorLove
Any messages, Loqi?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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Loqi
[mention] ןєภภเŦєг єภﻮɭยภ๔ reposted http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb https://webmention.io/notification/MP4tC6x2PtZsZn3lWzGK9w
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kevinmarks.com
edited /GNU_social (+85) "/* Difficult to get information about */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /Events (+1320) "/* March */ Trying out Template:one-day-event"
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gRegorLove
tantek: Finally worked the kinks out and have /Template:one-day-event on /Events#March Let me know what you think.
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tantek
interesting, the wiki link is an absolute link, not a local wiki link (hence the lock icon next to the link)
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tantek
you want to generate [[event_wiki_page|event_name]]
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tantek
rather than an a href for it
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gRegorLove
I can't, and include the u-url on the same link. Mediawiki template limitations.
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aaronpk
holy crap it works
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gRegorLove
I was using Mediawiki {{localurl}} to generate <a href class="u-url"> and was going nuts trying to figure out why it stripped the href. Guess it's a limitation to encourage using the bracket syntax for internal links
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gRegorLove
Template was initially set up to accept a bracketed wiki link, which I would prefer, but not sure how to get the mf2 u-url then, short of a hack/plugin for MediaWiki (not it! :) )
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aaronpk
i just made a minimal "built-in" editing interface for p3k, that does only the most common functions, but it's actually a Javascript Micropub client
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aaronpk
this is great :)
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aaronpk
had to add something to the spec to support that :)
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tantek
gRegorLove: other than that it looked great
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tantek
aaronpk: what's that screenshot of? Quill?
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tantek
worth adding to /Quill Edit UI?
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@INC_says
Type in I ,N, C into your #Roku / #RokuUK search to find some of the best #indie, #indiefilm , #indieweb , #docs , #fanfilms & more.📸🎥📹
(twtr.io/19QFQ4jU7bY)
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GWG
How do you display a domain name?
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[aaronpk]
Nope it's native to p3k.
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[aaronpk]
I'm going to make a more thorough editing interface for Quill
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GWG
I've already decided to switch the Let's Encrypt when my current certificates expire, or when I have time...whichever comes first.
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[aaronpk]
Interesting
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[aaronpk]
I've already started switching to Letsencrypt, as well as Amazon's certs.
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GWG
aaronpk: With any new server project, you need a block of time.
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GWG
I also don't support ALPN, which is an issue as Chrome wants to shutter NPN
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GWG
aaronpk: I thought Amazon certs only work for Amazon hosted things.
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[aaronpk]
I don't know what either of those are
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GWG
aaronpk: You support ALPN. Don't worry
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[aaronpk]
Yeah they do , but that's great when you are running Amazon things
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[aaronpk]
Oh and also cloud flare
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[aaronpk]
Basically the whole landscape is changing rapidly to commoditize SSL certs, and that's a good thing
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[aaronpk]
I would be surprised if in two years, it's unusual that your hosting company doesn't provide SSL with a checkbox
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[aaronpk]
That was meant to be a plural "your". Stupid English doesn't have enough pronouns.
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telostia
hi
gRegorLove, elima_, KartikPrabhu, loic_m, lukebrooker, jdp_, dogada, shiflett, jihaisse, Pierre-O, XgF, rhiaro_, michel_v, friedcell, sh4l and cweiske joined the channel
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cweiske
kylewm, woodwind does not seem to use the video src nor the poster URL: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2016-02-16%20woodwind%20video%20broken.png
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Loqi
cweiske: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 31 minutes ago: are you going to document the Woodwind counter-evidence as well? As well as the fact that originally RSS had this "description-as-summary only thus must retrieve permalinks" inefficiency, while both Atom/h-feed allow for full content? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-15/line/1455571999541
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Loqi
cweiske: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 30 minutes ago: thus sites/consuming-tools *must* be inefficient with RSS, and can be equally (in)efficient with Atom/h-feed, which leaves Atom's markup-wordiness/excess-artificial-precision inefficiency (compared to h-feed). http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-15/line/1455572070610
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petermolnar
good morning; some valid reasons popped up to drop startssl: https://pierrekim.github.io/blog/2016-02-16-why-i-stopped-using-startssl-because-of-qihoo-360.html in case any of you are using it
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cweiske.de
edited /feed_file (+98) "/* Full-text feeds */"
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cweiske.de
edited /video (+166) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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marcthiele
Good morning from Germany …
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cjk101010
hi marc
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telostia
hi
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telostia
anyone here into rpg games?
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telostia
like jrpg in particular
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petermolnar
telostia use #indiechat for non-indieweb topics, please
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tobiastom
hey there.
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cjk101010
hi tobiastom
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marcthiele
Hey tobiastom
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@btconf
Don't forget an extra registration for the #indiewebcamp during #btconf is needed. We need the numbers for catering. https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp
(twtr.io/19Qvc6juXxs)
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marcthiele.com
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+141) "/* Participants */"
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@jkphl
RT @btconf Don't forget an extra registration for the #indiewebcamp during #btconf is needed. We need the numbers for catering. https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp
(twtr.io/19QyHc3LxJw)
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wwwtech.de about
edited /IRC_People (+135) "Added my name"
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wwwtech.de about
created /User:Wwwtech.de_about (+341) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name">Christian Kruse</span> = <span class="p-role">Software developer</span> from <span class="p-locality">Steinfurt</span>, <span class="p-country-name">German...""
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pfefferle
good morning all
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sknebel
good morning
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webgefrickel.de
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (-68) "/* Participants */"
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aaronpk
i shouldn't be seeing "no log found" when I click one of the timestamps on my bridgy page right?
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aaronpk
lol thanks loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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aaronpk
bridgy feature request: a form that takes a supported silo URL and turns it into the bridgy URL, so that I can more easily create the bridgy URLs to manually send myself webmentions for them
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snarfed
interesting!
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snarfed
you'd need more inputs though
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snarfed
for eg replies, likes, etc
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snarfed
eg a given tweet has multiple different bridgy urls since bridgy interprets it differently depending on whether you're using it as a reply, a repost, or a normal post
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snarfed
also likes/reposts generally don't have permalinks, so you need the original post and liking/reposting user
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snarfed
(you could give bridgy its own synthetic permalink, but then you're already doing much of the hard work of generating a url yourself)
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aaronpk
ah I see now
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snarfed
aaronpk: seems like this is kind of a half measure, and what you really want is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579 ?
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aaronpk
probably :)
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aaronpk
hm yes now even though i constructed the comment url with both tweet IDs, it still isn't finding my original post
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snarfed
aaronpk: any idea how much of this use case for you is due to mgirating to your new site? as opposed to something you'd want ongoing?
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aaronpk
is this because i migrated?
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aaronpk
the post he's replying to is pretty old
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aaronpk
Jan 12
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snarfed
sorry, no, not re that specific tweet. i was asking in general, how often and why you'd want to retrigger old posts/responses
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aaronpk
ah, no this hasn't come up because of the site migration
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snarfed
huh ok
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petermolnar
snarfed is there a way to query bridgy for things published via bridgy by the source url?
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snarfed
good to know
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snarfed
petermolnar: source url == silo url?
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snarfed
no, sorry
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snarfed
(not original post url either)
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petermolnar
original post url could work
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petermolnar
I meant that source, not the POST target/source ( eg. brid.gy/silo/usrt
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aaronpk
uhoh. feedback loop.
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aaronpk
oh I think Known is treating the "like" property as "like-of"
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aaronpk
i'm publishing the list of likes I received in the "like" property, is that correct?
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tantek
probably an easy fix to submit to Known
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petermolnar
snarfed my issue is that with bridgy publish (wordpress) I'm not always able to catch the response corrently, so I don't have the silo url needed in the syndicated list and I'd like to be able to query that somehow
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tantek
what is ALPN?
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aaronpk
*whew* just posted an emoji reply and syndicated it to twitter with silo.pub and everything worked! :magic:
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ALPN" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EB
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snarfed
aaronpk: oh man. your twitter u-syndication on https://aaronparecki.com/2016/01/12/14/webmention is .../statuses/..., which works, but i think twitter generally uses .../status/..., and bridgy doesn't (yet) know to normalize those
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tantek
what is NPN?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "NPN" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EC
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aaronpk
snarfed: oh! umm
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snarfed
petermolnar: oh for publish! ohh ok
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aaronpk
but it was finding replies before...?
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petermolnar
no, for me, it's publish
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tantek
what is startssl?
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snarfed
aaronpk: you've always used /statuses/ ?
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Loqi
StartSSL is a service that provides introductory SSL certificates for no cost, see startssl.com https://indiewebcamp.com/StartSSL
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aaronpk
one way I was syndicating in my old site used that path yes
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petermolnar
finding the url where the silo syndicated version is available for a webmention source {url}
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tantek
petermolnar: could you add that URL of problems with startssl to https://indiewebcamp.com/StartSSL#Issues ?
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petermolnar
I will, but I have to leave in ~1 min
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tantek
thanks!
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aaronpk
oh man, my salmention sending is a little out of control
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tantek
what is out of control?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "out of control" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10ED
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aaronpk
i just edited that post to correct the syndication link to /status/ instead of /statuses/ and it queued up 86 webmentions
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aaronpk
one for each response URL and one for each profile image URL
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snarfed
petermolnar: understood. thanks for the feature request! i'll file an issue
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snarfed
aaronpk: sadly bridgy may not notice that u-syndication change, since it's below the fold in your h-feed
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aaronpk
hm yeah
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aaronpk
oh! that reminds me... i need to tell bridgy about my full feed now.
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tantek
what full feed?
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aaronpk
instead of just what i show on my home page
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aaronpk
(replies don't go to my home page)
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tantek
aaronpk: interesting. we should figure out a way to do h-feed discovery so that /readers can find your full feed and not have to retrieve each permalink URL (cweiske's criticism).
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aaronpk
i meant "full" as in all content, but i still don't show the full article contents on that page
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aaronpk
tho maybe i should
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tantek
yeah!
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aaronpk
i'm trying to remember the original reason i didn't include the full article contents in feed views
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tantek
do you include full contents in RSS or Atom?
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Loqi
[bridgy] Joschi Kuphal 吉 replied '@pfefferle *sigh* Sorry, voll nerviger TYPO3-Bug. Geht jetzt wieder (mal sehen, ...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg (https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/699640488727613440)
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aaronpk
i don't have rss or atom feeds anymore
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tantek
not even through a converter?
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aaronpk
i forgot to add the converter URL before i launched
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tantek
interesting, perhaps we should start /feed-file-quits
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aaronpk
i really don't want to write any code for it, but i should add back a feed through a converter
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aaronpk
probably just what's on https://aaronparecki.com/articles though
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tantek
alright I'm going to document GNU Social's js;dr
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tantek
because frankly, at least Twitter is not js;dr :P
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snarfed
aaronpk: feel free to just point directly to a https://granary-demo.appspot.com/ conversion url
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aaronpk
perfect
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aaronpk
i wish it was easier to preview rss feeds
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aaronpk
so i can tell what this actually looks like in readers
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snarfed
me too!!!
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aaronpk
wow what a bug-filled morning
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snarfed
wow actually granary's mf2 => atom fails pretty spectacularly on aaronpk's articles :(
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aaronpk
does it? i mean i don't have article text there, so...
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snarfed
ohhhhh
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snarfed
you're right then, nm, it's fine
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snarfed
i only compared to a permalink
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aaronpk
i'm not actually sure what to do about that
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aaronpk
I want to see a compact list of my articles because i often scroll through and look for old ones to send around
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aaronpk
but I would also be happy to have https://aaronparecki.com/articles show the full post contents so it's easier to follow in a reader, and so that it looks like there's actual content there
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snarfed
aaronpk: yup i do the same with https://snarfed.org/archive
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snarfed
maybe two different feeds? or query param?
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aaronpk
hm that's a though, "archive"
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aaronpk
i could make a totally different view that's actually optimized for finding things in the archive
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snarfed
heh, which mine totally isn't
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aaronpk
it kinda is! i mean you can always ctrl+f that page to find stuff
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aaronpk
it requires no extra clicks to get to older stuff
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tantek.com
edited /GNU_social (+656) "re-order sections, putting some positive sections nearer the top, history to bottom, add Issues / js dr and note about at least invisible content there with mf2"
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tantek.com
edited /GNU_social (+33) "/* js dr */ linky"
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aaronpk
wow seeing webmention.io getting hammered makes me really want to redo it and run it on not my infrastructure :P
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Zegnat
What’s hammering it?
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aaronpk
a lot of home page mentions of @t from bridgy, but also it looks like someone's script went a little rogue and is sending the same 4 webmentions over and over
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snarfed
notmyinfrastructure++
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aaronpk
like 2-3 times a second
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Loqi
notmyinfrastructure has 1 karma
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tantek
I might help with that soon by taking my Twitter account private for previously discussed reasons, including reasons why Stephen Fry quit Twitter.
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aaronpk
oh yeah haha
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tantek
Or would Bridgy keep sending @t home page mentions?
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tantek
even to / of a private account?
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tantek
I suppose I can help test this :D
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Zegnat
a, haywire scripts are upsetting, true
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snarfed
aaronpk tantek alternatively let me know if you want me to special case those @t mention wms. i know the signal to noise ratio makes them almost useless.
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tantek
aaronpk: is the haywire script from a single IP? or DDOS?
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snarfed
would be well in line with good spam/moderation handling in general including lots of heuristics, many hand tuned
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@jkphl
Awesome: Already 20+ registrations for our @indiewebcamp in Nuremberg! Half the places are taken. Got yours? http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww
(twtr.io/19RYF560dYY)
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tantek
(sorry to be such a problem case snarfed)
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aaronpk
it's from a single IP, it's someone's blog sending webmentions for indiewebcamp events (i wont' mention names to avoid placing blame)
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snarfed
tantek: not at all! doesn't cause bridgy any problems.
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snarfed
fwiw, if you took @t private, bridgy would stop doing anything for it. (intentionally.)
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tantek
got it. that's what I figured.
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tantek
would just mean I'd have to implement my own backfeed support
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tantek
and then I could share what code I had to write to filter the nonsense
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tantek
I'm considering taking @t private, and then occasionally using @tantek to publicly syndicate specific posts if I feel the need
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snarfed
tantek: i'd be happy to whitelist @t for backfeed
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tantek
what would that mean?
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tantek
still backfeed it even though it's private?
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snarfed
with or without @-mentions
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@pabloawad
“Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere” https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
(twtr.io/19RZ8i8L9jY)
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loqi.me
created /Giphy (+101) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by sknebel"
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cweiske
aaronpk, tantek - I used KartikPrabhu's hfeed2atom proxy, but it's down since some time
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cweiske
so I no longer receive updates from aaron in tt-rss
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cweiske
and tantek, I thought we had h-feed linking already http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#rel_feed
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KevinMarks
+q issues from external postings about as2
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kylewm
KevinMarks: wrong channel?
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KevinMarks
this is intersting - I wonder why the pervious silos all abandonded their chat networks, letting new ones grow http://arstechnica.com/business/2016/02/the-fall-and-rise-and-rise-and-rise-of-chat-networks/
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aaronpk
what's interesting to me is why AIM and the early IM networks didn't end up getting ported to mobile platforms
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aaronpk
I wonder if it was because the wave of web-based things like Facebook and Twitter took over in between
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sknebel
and chat on early mobile platforms sucked
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sknebel
before google/apple running push servers
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sknebel
well, blackberry maybe
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tantek
AIM fell victim to classic innovator's dilemma, they were asleep when web-based-as-an-option chat took off
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tantek
whether Twitter, Gtalk, etc.
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tantek
and frankly, only FB has made realtime chat "work" well (responsively, low latency) across web, native apps, etc.
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tantek
I wouldn't be surprised if FB messenger was a primary driver behind the work on / architecture of the React framework
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aaronpk
google hangouts is pretty good now
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aaronpk
oh nevermind, i still can't get group chats on my desktop
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tantek
sknebel: blackberry never made the jump to web-based-chat-as-an option either
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tantek
again, innovator's dilemma from their lead in low-latency BB-only "blackberry messenger"
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tantek
(the speed of BBM was unreal)
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kylewm
hangouts annoys the crap out of me
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KevinMarks
initially I think it was not spooking the carriers about SMS revenue
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tantek
kylewm: yeah hangouts is a pretty sad excuse for a Google product
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KevinMarks
apple should have ported iChat to iPhone at launch
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, kylewm, I don't think its that bad, it has some problems for sure
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tantek
KevinMarks: right, because fear is what causes winners to win. \ :/ /
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tantek
KevinMarks: apple is still behind because there is no web UI to iMessage
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, kylewm, much of that is because its based on some proprietary company's software they used for group video.... Vidyo i believe it was called
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sknebel
I'm not sure the web-based thing is *that* important
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tantek
sknebel: it's enough of a difference on the margin
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sknebel
on mobile we use apps, and most people were used to having messengers installed locally
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tantek
being able to use your desktop/laptop without having to install something is *very* convenient
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sknebel
it certainly helps to get to all platforms though
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KevinMarks
they're going to move it to webrtc
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tantek
for reaching tons of people who may not have whatever mobile (cr)app
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KevinMarks
but that doesn't work on ios
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sknebel
Facebook chat got there because it was in a website people already visited, and neatly made them spend more time there
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sknebel
now there is slack
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KevinMarks
google really dropped the ball on that, there are so many sms apps on android
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sknebel
what other important web-based messengers am I missing?
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KevinMarks
twitter had xmpp and sms based integration, and let it rot
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sknebel
and pre-web had kinda lost already when mobile really came around...
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sknebel
so guess tantek is kinda right, they would have needed web to retain market share long enough to get on mobile
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KevinMarks
my sidekick ran AIM in 2003
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tantek
I have yet to reinstall Slack on my reset-to-blank-with-OS iPod touch and I don't miss it
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tantek
I haven't any critical need for Slack
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KevinMarks
we used aim like slack at technorati
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tantek
which was kinda annoying TBH
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sknebel
My surrounding group got smartphones in 2010
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sknebel
as in, first half of 2010, high-school: 1 person had one (winCE based)
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tantek
but that might have been a cultural problem, not a tech problem
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sknebel
2011: everybody goes to university, large number has one
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KevinMarks
well, we were using sidekicks as ops pagers, so it grew from that
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singpolyma
my company uses slack, but I join using my normal IM client. I never use their UI. the bridge is ... good enough, but not great
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cweiske
I use the xmpp bridge for slack, but it sucks
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cweiske
really
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cweiske
I had 5 bug reports and 3 feature requests which they closed as wontfix
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singpolyma
sucks so much less than the bridge for hipchat did. but yes
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sknebel
I really wish the modern mobile messengers had desktop interfaces as well
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sknebel
but many of them don't even allow multiple devices per user
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singpolyma
When I asked the Kik CEO about that he specifically said that they only want one device so that the "messages always go to the device you actually have, just like SMS"
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aaronpk
"just like SMS" heh. my SMSs go to 4 devices now.
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singpolyma
aaronpk: ooh. what system are you using for that?
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aaronpk
well, iMessage go to 4, SMS to 2 mostly, sometimes 3
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sknebel
heh. means that most mobile messages go to the one device I have... left at home
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aaronpk
my main SMS number is google voice
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singpolyma
ah, right
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aaronpk
but now apple forwards SMSs via imessage
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aaronpk
so the ones sent to my iphone number end up on all my computers and my ipad
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singpolyma
oh, interesting
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tantek
yes, the goal should be to supplant and replace SMS
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aaronpk
i actually have a computer at home which all it does is get a copy of my iMessages and archive them in HTML files
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tantek
let the silos do the R&D (including UX) for how to do that, and the we fast follow with our own indieweb sites
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tantek
^^^ exactly aaronpk. not a big step from that to turning that computer into your own personal real time message router
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aaronpk
that is definitely in my plans! :)
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singpolyma
I basically never get SMS, but I have a viteltiy SMS-to-XMPP number set up for the few times when I do
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KevinMarks
thats what annoys me about whatsapp, it's tied to sim
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sknebel
for ICQ/AIM/XMPP/SMS... that's doable. not very well documented often, but doable. but getting whatsapp/Telegram/Signal/... in the mix
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singpolyma
sknebel: moar bridges!
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KevinMarks
but clearly the id simplicilty of it works for a lot of people
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singpolyma
I think libpurple has whatsapp/telegram/facebook/skype plugins now
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snarfed
libpurple++ is great
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Loqi
libpurple has 1 karma
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snarfed
(...but sadly connecting it to whatsapp accounts is extremely difficult. i've never managed to.)
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singpolyma
my upcoming strategy is to bridge to people primarily through SMS, since they still all have that (mostly)
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tantek
singpolyma: SMS has bad international portability, and depends (without Google Voice) on institutional / regulated monopolies, thus it makes sense to move away from it
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singpolyma
I'm not saying SMS is good, just nicer to work with than a lot of other options, and has better penetration with users I need to communicate with
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sknebel
everybody has their own local distribution of protocols that are relevant
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sknebel
I still use ICQ to talk to some people
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singpolyma
for sure
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singpolyma
for me it's almost a 100% SMS and Facebook overlap. Except for close friends and close family, who are XMPP
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sknebel
aaronpk: you mentioned you had looked at matrix.org, right? Do you think that's going to be a candidate for the core of a "personal message router"?
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tantek
singpolyma: I've used iMessage + carrier-MMS-emails-filtered-to-a-special-gmail to replace SMS.
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aaronpk
sknebel: no, i'm planning on something way more low tech
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sknebel
low-tech++ ;)
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Loqi
low-tech has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
the rumor is that google is going to be phasing out hangouts
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ben_thatmustbeme
or at least moving sms out of it
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singpolyma
they already moved sms out of it
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singpolyma
well. they told users to stop using it for sms
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aaronpk
nah my google voice SMSs go to hangouts
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singpolyma
it technically still works
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ben_thatmustbeme
its always been optional
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singpolyma
Sure, but when my fiancee starts her phone up and it has a huge banner saying "Use this other app for SMS now please" it doesn't seem optional to her
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tantek
hangouts primarily sucks because they dropped support for (handling of) gtalk: and xmpp: URLs
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ben_thatmustbeme
they just had a single pop-up to give the let people know its an option for those that don't like it
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ben_thatmustbeme
though i never got that, cause Google-Fi
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aaronpk
i don't even know what popups you're talking about
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aaronpk
i don't have an android phone is probably why
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ben_thatmustbeme
singpolyma beat me to the googling that
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ben_thatmustbeme
was about to post the same article
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singpolyma
was in my browser history
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tantek
I bet this is the result of some political infighting inside Google
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ben_thatmustbeme
but yeah, i'm on google-fi so my sms and mms comes up on my desktop
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tantek
Hangouts team: hey, we're *the* messaging app for Google now, so, Android team, we're going to handle SMSs
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ben_thatmustbeme
on my desktop in hangout that is
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tantek
Android team: really? um, ok, does it really work?
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sparverius
dammit i finally switched to hangouts for both.
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: that seems pretty likely
#
tantek
Hangouts team: yes of course it works! And it's one unified messaging UX! simpler for users!
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tantek
Android team: ok, sounds good.
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tantek
(insert months of bad Hangouts latency, performance, confusion)
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tantek
Android team: so... we've come to the conclusion that Hangouts is too slow, can you fix it?
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tantek
Hangouts team: what do you mean? works great on our (desktop, laptop, over-powered android) devices on superfast wifi networks at Google HQ
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tantek
Android team: no, seriously, you need to fix the launch latency, the contact list latency, the recent conversations latency, the push-message unreliability, etc.
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tantek
Hangouts team: sure we'll get to that
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tantek
(insert months of failing to fix Hangouts)
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tantek
Android team: You know what, Hangouts sucks so bad that it makes our SMS and thus phones look bad compared to iPhones, we're going to make our own non-sucky Messages app
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tantek
Hangouts team: what? no way we'll fight this.
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tantek
Android team: you will lose
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tantek
that's what I expect the dialog went like
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kylewm
does anyone have thoughts on how a micropub client could tell the difference between a "checkin" and a note with location?
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tantek
kylewm: that's a classic troll ;)
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tantek
(around these parts :) )
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aaronpk
what does that have to do with a micropub client?
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tantek
gets the virtual popcorn
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singpolyma
This gives google teams way too much credit. Based on what I saw when working there, it's more like "Hey, we just switched SMS users to Hangouts, mmmkay?" for awhile, no one notices, then "wait, how did this happen? I'mma change it back"
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tantek
gives Loqi virtual popcorn
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tantek
what is Hangouts?
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kylewm
aaronpk: sorry micropub endpoint, not the client
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Loqi
Hangouts is Google's messaging tool that supports chat, groups, SMS/MMS (on Android), and videoconferencing https://indiewebcamp.com/Hangouts
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singpolyma
kylewm: obviously you just add <this-is-a-checkin-my-friend xmlns="http://urn:123:idon'tknowhowtoURI/.zip" /> to your SOAP envelope
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kylewm
tantek: definitely not intentional trolling. came up organically in https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1227
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tantek.com
edited /Hangouts (+140) "Issues, SMS drama"
(view diff)
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tantek
kylewm: ok that's a legitimate reason to take another look at this
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tantek
who is danito?
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cweiske
do we have microformats for marking up books?
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tantek
cweiske: do you mean a whole book online?
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cweiske
I just put my library online and thought it would be nice to have some semantic markup; http://cweiske.de/books.htm
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tantek
cweiske: you want h-cite, since those are not actual books, but rather citations of books :)
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singpolyma
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 274 karma
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tantek
cweiske: also, good for you for publishing your library! that's pretty awesome
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tantek
cweiske++
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Loqi
cweiske has 45 karma
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tantek
what is an events list?
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Loqi
An events listing is a page or portion of a page (like on a homepage) of an indieweb site that shows a list of events, perhaps including some subset of their event, invitation, and RSVP posts, displayed as a list or grid of some sort https://indiewebcamp.com/events_list
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cweiske
should prevent people from giving me books I already have
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tantek
looks for a similar example and finds a typo, likely his
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cweiske
tantek, http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite says its for online publications only
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tantek
cweiske: yes I should update that, as use has spread beyond
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kylewm
really the only difference between a checkin and a note+location is your intention in posting it...
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tantek
kylewm: there's a lot of previous discussion on this topic on /checkin and related pages - have you read through those?
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tantek
more discussion than merits a "the only difference" summary
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, apparently google dropped Vidyo at some point for its own protocol
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ben_thatmustbeme
recently they added webRTC though
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cweiske
should I use u-uid for the ISBN?
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tantek.com
edited /events_list (+1) "fix odd typo with rewording"
(view diff)
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tantek
cweiske: that makes sense
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kylewm
tantek: i have
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tantek
kylewm: does Known support /venue posts/pages ?
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tantek
takes a look at h-cite
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: thats why my endpoint and client has a type field mp-type
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have mp-type: checkin vs mp-type:note
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kylewm
that sounds pretty good to me
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tantek
thought he solved this problem at some point
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kylewm
the wiki suggests "p-location venue" as the differentiator
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kylewm
but Instagram photos frequently have a venue associated
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aaronpk
i post photos with venue tags all the time, and they are definitely not checkins
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: some argued the difference was insignificant and it was sort of dropped mostly as people were getting rid of post types
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ben_thatmustbeme
but there was never a resolution
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KevinMarks
also, google calling their new SMS app Messenger is a big passive agressive troll on FB
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tantek
nah, BBM had it first ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
on another note, what are people's thoughts on JF2. I'd love to hear thoughts on use
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm hoping to redo a bunch of my stuff at IWCMIT to use the JF2 version instead
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I could be convinced to add a jf2 "feed" if that's interesting to consuming code
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kylewm
I'm not necessarily crazy about properties being optionally lists .. it seems like you'd have to do a lot more checking in consuming code
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm sort of torn on this, having a seperate feed for jf2 allows for people to have different jf2 and mf2
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: yeah, that has been a little bit confusing. I'm thinking it may have to move to just string or object instead of string, object, or array
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aaronpk
my interest in jf2 is to have something easier to consume than mf2
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aaronpk
which to me also means things like restricting where the author of an entry can show up
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aaronpk
like it would be great if a valid jf2 feed only had one place an author of a post could appear
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tantek
reviews his queue: h-cite, checkin+comment vs note+loc, checkin+photo vs photo+loc, jf2/mf2json optional list vs always list
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tantek
inserts personal library there somewhere
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cweiske.de
edited /h-cite (+154) "indieweb examples"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
tantek's jf2 will be complicated
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek: regarding adding a jf2 "feed" i'm somewhat concerned it would be just going back to another feed file, the question then becomes, why do you need the MF2 then
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, KevinMarks, you always use {'children':[....]} already?
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tantek
cweiske thanks for adding that to /h-cite. I've updated the microformats wiki page to explicitly mention references to physical books in the http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite#Offline_Citations section
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aaronpk
on a totally unrelated note, what's the best way to replace relative image URLs with absolute URLs in my articles when displaying them?
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aaronpk
this is one of the reasons I don't have article content on anything except the article permalinks
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aaronpk
the posts are written with relative image URLs, so I need to munge that into a full URL in order to display it on a page like / or /articles
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tantek
do any of the /read silos support a personal library feature?
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tantek
!tell gRegorLove in your use of /Goodreads have you found a "personal library" feature where it keeps track of the books you *have*? Or only books you have *read*?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell rhiaro,tommorris do you keep a list of all the books you own? do you publish that list anywhere? what do you call it? personal library?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
Loqi what's my queue?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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tantek
finds it unarchived so goes to archive it
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aaronpk
considers a personal q+ feature for Loqi
#
tantek.com
edited /2015/Books!_Metadata!_Microformats! (+4209) "archive notes from session etherpad"
(view diff)
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kylewm
tantek: yes Goodreads has a checkbox when you add a book for whether or not you own it (which always seemed like a weird brag)
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singpolyma
why add a book you don't own? Just because you kinda like it?
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tantek
kylewm: does it have a URL for you to brag about your personal library of all the books you own?
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tantek
singpolyma: because experiences > stuff
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kylewm
checking
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tantek
and while you're checking, I'll look at checkins
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kylewm
weird, it does not seem to be a public URL... so you can only look at your own list of "owned books" here https://www.goodreads.com/owned_books/user
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tantek
what's the name/title of that page?
#
tantek
like in the h1 and title?
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tantek
!tell snarfed ok let's do it. whitelist @t, instagram.com/tantek, and facebook.com/tantek.celik for backfeed even though private
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed
tantek: wow ok!
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tantek
does anyone else publish a "personal library" or list of "owned books" or "owned media" or "stuff"?
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tommorris
tantek: I keep a list in Delicious Library (Mac app) but don't publish it
#
Loqi
tommorris: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: do you keep a list of all the books you own? do you publish that list anywhere? what do you call it? personal library? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455654923934
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snarfed
expects the social/personal reactions of tantek going silo-private will be a bigger deal than anything technical
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snarfed
stocks up on popcorn
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tommorris
Used to keep it all in BibTex database.
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snarfed
tantek: yes, linked from https://snarfed.org/lists
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KevinMarks
am I using children wrong?
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's too deep of a question for me
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KevinMarks
oh, in category?
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snarfed
tantek: btw this whitelisting won't be able to differentiate levels of privacy per silo
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KevinMarks
hm, I thought I was following the jf2 spec there
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snarfed
ie it will backfeed all responses, even if a human could still look at one of your posts and say "that's obviously still private"
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snarfed
just a heads up
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tantek
snarfed totally ok, I'm willing to be the canary burdened with figuring out the subtleties
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snarfed
also tantek i assume might as well do g+ too, even if you're inactive?
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snarfed
oh and flickr?
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tantek.com
edited /read (+120) "/* Other Examples */ snarfed's list of books"
(view diff)
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tantek
snarfed, yes, G+ too. Not sure about Flickr's privacy controls
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aaronpk
okay i'm taking the plunge
#
aaronpk
switching to showing full article contents in my feed views
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singpolyma
aaronpk: woo! full content everywhere!
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tantek.com
edited /read (+28) "/* Other Examples */ expand scope"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell cweiske have you read all the books on http://cweiske.de/books.htm ? if so, could you add it as an example here: https://indiewebcamp.com/read#Other_Examples
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
well now granary is showing the relative image URL in the feed. is that going to work in readers?
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aaronpk
i doubt it, since the only reference to aaronparecki.com is the <id> element
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tantek
we explored this a few days ago, and KevinMarks pointed out that RSS didn't specify how to handle relative URLs in embedded HTML
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aaronpk
not even urls with an absolute path but no hostname?
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KevinMarks
feedparser works hard to get it right following xml rules, but it's tricky
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aaronpk
well, i think granary can do the resolving then, since it knows the URL the HTML came from
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, et al. btw feel free to open up issues with JF2 https://github.com/dissolve/jf2/issues
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KevinMarks
right. that's the problem, if you don't have Content-Location you're in trouble
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aaronpk
wow, a totally arbitrary subset of my old articles didn't get their images imported correctly when I did the batch import
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tantek
kylewm: some more thinking / discussion on checkin vs photo here: https://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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aaronpk
looks like i've got some cleanup to do. good thing i left a copy of my old site online.
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aaronpk
i decided to start a convention of leaving a snapshot of my old sites online on a subdomain of the year i switched away from it
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KevinMarks
thats a very good idea
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aaronpk
so 2015.aaronparecki.com and 2008.aaronparecki.com are up right now
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kylewm
spiderpigged?
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aaronpk
not quite, but soon, after i'm confident enough with things running on the new stack
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kylewm
that's quite a nice idea, i should definitely do that with my site
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snarfed
aaronpk: tantek: re relative urls, granary outputs atom, not rss :P
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sknebel
What is spiderpigged?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "spiderpigged" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10EF
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tantek
what is spiderpig?
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Loqi
Spiderpig is a web crawler for archiving a website as static HTML files https://indiewebcamp.com/Spiderpig
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aaronpk
2012.aaronparecki.com is spiderpigged because it was mediawiki and I don't want that software on this server
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snarfed
...aww, which led me to http://atomenabled.org/ , which is evidently compromised :(
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Loqi
aww, cheer up
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snarfed
(the minecraft section)
#
aaronpk
spiderpigged is /spiderpig
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loqi.me
created /spiderpigged (+22) "prompted by sknebel https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455657842196 and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
[indieweb] "Would love to be able to Pin a @withknown item (status,post,etc..) on the head of my site" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-love-to-be-able-to-pin-a-withknown-item
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tantek
snarfed what?!? atomenabled.org got owned?
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snarfed
tantek: you tell me. looks like it
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snarfed
(subtly)
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snarfed
aha. from http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/#aboutThisDocument : "http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/ may be used to control how relative URIs are resolved."
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aaronpk
snarfed: any reason not to have granary replace the relative URLs with absolute URLs in the conversion?
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snarfed
aaronpk: or set xml:base?
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aaronpk
i guess
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aaronpk
any idea how well that's supported in rss/atom readers?
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snarfed
if you're talking about fully qualifying individual elem values, sure
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tantek
snarfed, looks like a compromised WordPress install, per the "twentytwelve" references in the source
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snarfed
aaronpk: if you mean inside the HTML content, i'd be reluctant
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snarfed
tantek: whee
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@RikMende
Would love to Pin a @withknown item (status,post,etc..) on the head of my site & the ability to style it #indieweb http://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-love-to-be-able-to-pin-a-withknown-item
(twtr.io/19RsW76DuR4)
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petermolnar
re: singpolyma "I think libpurple has whatsapp/telegram/facebook/skype" 3rd party, yes; I have them running on my bitlbee server
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tantek
kylewm: re @RikMende's post
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tantek
what is a pinned post?
#
Loqi
pin or pinning is a feature that allows the author to choose a post to put at the top of their profile (or homepage) which is then called a pinned or sticky post https://indiewebcamp.com/pinned_post
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petermolnar
re SMS: I hope they'll stay alive forever; Europe would be unusable without it due to roaming
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KevinMarks
see the feedparser link I posted
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tantek
petermolnar: the rest of the world SMS is unusable due to lack of roaming
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tantek
so it is already there
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petermolnar
if I'm abroad ( EU, we're talking about a few hundred kilometres when abroad ) I don't have data and if I do need to send something, SMS is always there
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kylewm
oh that's funny, redwind was still running on my server, just wasn't exposed
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singpolyma
petermolnar: this is a bug in the carries, thoguh
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petermolnar
( I have a backup thingy running that copies it to my mail account though once it has data connection )
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kylewm
now up at 2015.kylewm.com
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KevinMarks
snarfed: I'd recommend resolving the urls yourself, given the Content-Header issues
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snarfed
KevinMarks: ok. got a link for those issues? i don't see Content-Header mentioned in https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/resolving-relative-links.html
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snarfed
or even better feel free to add it to https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/78
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snarfed
oh, Content-Location?
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aaronpk
kylewm: don't forget to set robots.txt to deny all
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snarfed
honestly i'm still leaning toward xml:base. i really don't want to try to intelligently rewrite relative URLs inside arbitrary HTML
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snarfed
kylewm: cool!
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aaronpk
kylewm: or if you want to still allow archive.org to crawl it, http://2012.aaronparecki.com/robots.txt
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tantek
kylewm: would you consider a 404 handler on kylewm.com that checked to see if 2015.kylewm.com has the path and serve it if it does?
#
tantek
(perhaps log it as a to-do item?)
#
tantek
same for you aaronpk
#
aaronpk
i am pretty confident i got all my redirects working properly, so i dont think i will
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KevinMarks
yes, content location sorry
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tantek
aaronpk: I'll let you know if I find one :)
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aaronpk
also i have a fallback where if a post matches the URL structure of the old site and no post is found, it redirects to the day of the post in case i missed on
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tantek
kylewm has his checkins and venues
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tantek
(that 404 currently)
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tantek
aaronpk do you use ownyourcheckins ?
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tantek
is your use of Swarm still purely silo separate from your site?
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aaronpk
i don't have any concept of checkins on my site yet. it's been a "todo" for years, but i haven't solved a couple fundamental issues yet
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tantek
right, I'm working on those fundamental issues ;)
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aaronpk
one is the checkin+photo vs photo+location
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aaronpk
nah that's not a checkin because 1) I already had checked in before I posted that photo, and 2) that post would look the same if I had posted it a day later
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tantek
"already had checked in" - no evidence of that on your site
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KevinMarks
when I posse from instagram to Swarm, that creates a checkin in swarm - is it one instagram If I don't?
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aaronpk
yeah no evidence on my site because i don't post checkins yet!
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tantek
thus it's effectively a checkin on your site
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aaronpk
no, because i checked in on foursquare
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aaronpk
and if i *had* had checkins on my site, i still would have posted that photo at that time
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tantek
but the "I" there is disconnected, so that can't be used as evidence
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tantek
the argument of "would look the same if I had posted it a day later" is interesting
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tantek
there may be an opportunity here for behavioral design
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KevinMarks
I noticed that Swarm now prompts for 'missed checkins'
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aaronpk
yes, I am reluctant to post photos with venue tags significantly later than they were taken, but I do end up doing that. however for me a checkin isn't a checkin unless the timestamp matches the date i was there
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KevinMarks
a latergram could be a retrospective checkin?
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tantek
that's a good criteria in general, though some of us (myself included) use "Post(squares)." for after the fact checkins
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tantek
due to Swarm limitations
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aaronpk
i have done that occasionally when i've forgotten to check in right away, but i would prefer to backdate the checkin
#
tantek
me too
#
tantek
thus we can design accordingly
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aaronpk
it's actually a note to myself to correct those dates when i import my checkins finally
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tantek
hence the need for timestamped offline checkins
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aaronpk
definitely
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aaronpk
( for reference, here is the corresponding checkin on foursquare https://foursquare.com/aaronpk/checkin/536904e6498e078bfb4b6106 )
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ben_thatmustbeme
SEE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE kylewm! it was a troll :P
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tantek
I am thinking that photo > venue > text > geo/adr
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aaronpk
the foursquare permalink doesn't show the time, but the list view does. it was posted at 8:51am
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tantek
attempts to cut the checkin-post-type knot
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aaronpk
that photo was posted at 11:19am
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tantek
a-ha!
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KevinMarks
hm, looks like foursquare stomps the initial checkin time with the photo time if you post a photo in the smae place
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aaronpk
can you use that to backdate checkins then?
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tantek
goes to resolves some Post Type Discovery issues
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KevinMarks
not sure if it is the timestamp from the photo or the time instagram calls them
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KevinMarks
if you go to your userpage on the swarm app it gives you ghost checkins thta you can add
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KevinMarks
just posted an image to slack, but looks like loqi doesn't xfer
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aaronpk
sadly no, they don't show up as chat messages in the api
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@ebot70
Top hashtags for @withknown: #edtech #indieweb #opensource #edtechbridge #openweb http://www.redaelli.org/matteo-blog/projects/ebottwitter/
(twtr.io/19Ruz7ZkvL_)
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davidpeach
I wonder if anybody can help me with a bridgy issue?
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snarfed
davidpeach: sure
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tantek
davidpeach do you use /ello ?
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tantek
KevinMarks: You need to sign in to see this page. :(
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aaronpk
tantek: check the link i posted
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davidpeach
ello was short for hello. hehe
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tantek
KevinMarks: doesn't prove anything. could just be they display dt-updated in list view
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davidpeach
hi snarfed how are you?
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snarfed
davidpeach: ok! what's up?
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davidpeach
It seems bridgy is sending the same replies multiple times.
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snarfed
davidpeach: interesting! it tries hard to send only once, but definitely not guaranteed
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tantek.com
edited /post-type-discovery (+1322) "/* Issues */ resolve most issues, add Feature consideration checkin brainstorm, headings for issues"
(view diff)
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snarfed
webmentions in general don't guarantee that
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snarfed
and bridgy actually does intentionally resend sometimes, eg if someone edits a comment
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davidpeach
could i link my homepage to see if I've done anything silly in markup?
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snarfed
should be unrelated. what's your bridgy user page?
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tantek
aaronpk, kylewm for your consideration, I think I've figured out a good answer (and can provide reasoning for all the decisions) https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Feature_consideration_checkin
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tantek
(I knew I was close to this last time I considered it in my head)
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aaronpk
is intrigued
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snarfed
davidpeach: do you mean you're seeing duplicate bridgy wms rendered on your site?
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@benwerd
@ElissaBeth @Brave Asking because that would be an awesome way to help open source projects and #indieweb authors be self-sufficient.
(twtr.io/19RvZ7kHW5s)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "@ElissaBeth @Brave Asking because that would be an awesome way to help open source projects and #indieweb authors be self-sufficient." by Ben Werdmüller http://werd.io/2016/elissabeth-brave-asking-because-that-would-be-an-awesome-way
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davidpeach
bridgy is hitting my site multiple times and im getting multiples of the same replies - hours apart
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KevinMarks
nope, I checked the api, they overwrite the createdAt timestamp for the checkin, even though the photo has a separate one
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snarfed
davidpeach: what software runs your site?
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tantek
KevinMarks: wow that's bad
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davidpeach
its a laravel-based one. built myself
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aaronpk
laravel++
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Loqi
laravel has 1 karma
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snarfed
davidpeach: cool. you'll probably want to implement some basic de-duping. http://indiewebcamp.com/de-dupe#de-duplication
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snarfed
i can also check on bridgy's side if you send an example
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KevinMarks
it makes sense for their primary use case of 'when was kevin most recently confirmed there'
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /archival_copy (+145) "added Perma.cc and WebCite"
(view diff)
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davidpeach
oki ill add some de-dupeness in
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davidpeach
Anybody know whether there's a brighton-based indiewebcamp in plans this year? I missed last years one.
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davidpeach
im actually near Birmingham UK but would love to go to Brighton
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tantek
davidpeach: I think there should be! ping adactio about it
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tantek
davidpeach: feel free to add a Brighton section inside this: https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#2016 and note exactly what you said - "would love to go to Brighton"
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davidpeach
will do. thanks tantek
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gRegorLove
tantek, kylewm: I did find when logged in on Goodreads I can view a friend's books and under settings turn on the "Owned" column and sort by that. But it's not a very obvious user flow to get to that.
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Loqi
gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 39 minutes ago: in your use of /Goodreads have you found a "personal library" feature where it keeps track of the books you *have*? Or only books you have *read*? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455654883736
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gRegorLove
Apparently my books are public and you can change that setting even when not authed, but there's no sort option when not authed. E.g. https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/4314314-gregor
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tantek
how can you tell which you actually own / have?
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gRegorLove
Settings > select "owned"
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gRegorLove
If you're logged in (and presumably connected as a friend?), you can then sort by the owned column, which either has a checkmark or is blank.
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tantek
not logged in
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gRegorLove
If you're not logged in, doesn't appear they let you sort. Not sure why.
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tantek
I don't even see an owned column
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gRegorLove
You have to turn it on under Settings at the top right. Sometimes you have to turn it off and on -- UI doesn't always refresh for me.
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gRegorLove
And very well may be js;dr functionality
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gRegorLove
Yep, "Settings" link does nothing with js off. With it on it slides down a list of columns that can be turned on/off
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