#indiewebcamp 2016-02-17

2016-02-17 UTC
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why we built Known: http://werd.io/2015/why-is-known-the-best-way-to-solve-your-community #opensource #edtech #indieweb #openweb" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2016/why-we-built-known-2015why-is-known-the-best-way-to-solve-your-community-opensource-edtech-indieweb-openweb
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+307) "headings for resolved issues, move an issue to resolved" (view diff)
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@misuba Nowadays, I think of indieweb stuff vs. online abuse in terms of economic reforms vs. racism. That is, I doubt they'll do that much to help. (twitter.com/_/status/699755289013137408)
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kylewm heh
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kylewm that is a weird criticism and a weird analogy
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tantek kylewm: there's been a few rare notes of the form "but this doesn't solve MY problem"
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tantek however, it appears @misuba has been to an IndieWebCamp
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tantek two actually, 2012 and 2015
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tantek or rather at least signed up for two?
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Contributions/Gibberish.com
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kylewm he was definitely at the 2015 one
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tantek ah, subdomain difference https://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Contributions/Www.gibberish.com
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tantek kylewm: yes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2awcInYgw4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m49s
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tantek misses IWC 2015 but now looks forward to IndieWeb Summit 2016 :)
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tantek !tell aaronpk perhaps consider inviting @misuba to the next HWC PDX? He went to one in September recently: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club#Portland
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek would be interesting to learn more about what he meant by that - what particular itch it's about
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+118) "/* Feature consideration checkin */ cite Known issue as driving need to document *something*" (view diff)
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tantek speaking of
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tantek kylewm: did you have any off-the-cuff opinions/responses to https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Feature_consideration_checkin ?
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kylewm tantek: well two issues i have with it; 1) i don't know how to post p-location h-card with micropub, and 2) i just don't think you can cover the difference of intent between note+location and checkin with implicit properties. structurally the two things are identical, they just have different purposes
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tantek 1) you have to post the venue "post" as an h-card first, and then you post u-location with that venue URL
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kylewm ok
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kylewm i do think your solution covers a whole bunch more cases than we had before
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tantek 2) there is the subtle difference of: *named* venue implying stronger intent toward a checkin, whereas just a geo/adr p-location and note text implies note text has stronger intent
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tantek (all valid questions / apparent issues btw - since I didn't (yet) document all my reasoning for each explicit decision in the proposed algorithm)
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kylewm here's a silly example: say i added a named venue for my Home; every note i post with p-location=Home probably isn't a check in
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tantek kylewm: it's too easy to construct silly examples in difficult cases like this. hence the need to rely on real world publishing behaviors.
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Loqi [indieweb] "FrancisCMS/FrancisCMS: An IndieWeb-friendly content management system built with Ruby on Rails." by stungeye https://github.com/FrancisCMS/FrancisCMS
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tantek e.g. in practice when I've seen photos in checkins, or added to checkins, they're not realtime checkins
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tantek that's the key interesting distinction aaronpk made
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tantek if you're not there when you post it, it's not really a checkin, no matter what your supposed "intent"
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tantek hence why photo "wins" over a named venue
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tantek even though you can cross-post from IG->Swarm, the checkin is more of a side effect, an after the fact, rather than actually the intent
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kylewm was my silly example really that silly? i thought it pretty realistic, especially if you had geofencing working
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tantek yes I should amend the "named venue" to require more details to be considered a checkin, e.g. actual address or lat long in the venue description
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tantek if someone post a note with p-location:"Home" with no other details, we can presume the intent there was more the note than the checkin
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tantek it's not unlike a p-location of just say "France" or "San Francisco"
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tantek which are the "adr" case I mentioned
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sknebel_ btw, all of you running their own servers have been good and installed the security patches from today?
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tantek that's what a shared webhost is for
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kylewm I meant to say Home a venue with a url on my site where its h-card lives, and p-location = the url that points to that url
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kylewm venue*
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kylewm not the string "Home"
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tantek right, that's what I mean by requiring more details
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tantek at that URL
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tantek I should specify with street address, and/or lat long
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tantek in addition to the "name"
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Loqi +1
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kylewm that sounds like splitting hairs
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kylewm fwiw, i think you've done the best that can be done with the constraints given
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tantek it's not, it's making a big distinction because checkins in practice have that
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tantek that's the key here - looking at checkin behavior (at least Swarm/4sq and FB)
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tantek (even Yelp!)
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tantek the more precisely we can define the pattern that is actual checkin behavior, the better we reflect intent
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (+182) "/* Feature consideration checkin */ modify algorithm first before rewriting it to be clearer to show iteration" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: cool, well I appreciate you putting thought into it! off to start making dinner
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tantek I appreciate the feedback! Already improved the algorithm substantially
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tantek.com edited /post-type-discovery (-82) "/* Feature consideration checkin */ rewrite algorithm to be clearer (in rough precedence order)" (view diff)
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tantek yes, made it shorter
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tantek for all the bitcoin fans out there, it's use in ransomware continues: http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Hospital-hack-reveals-digital-risk-in-medical-6834978.php
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tantek.com edited /bitcoin (+132) "/* Criticism */ Enables ransomware" (view diff)
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aaronpk good evening
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 56 minutes ago: perhaps consider inviting @misuba to the next HWC PDX? He went to one in September recently: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club#Portland http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455671579450
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aaronpk yes he's been to some homebrew website clubs too
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tantek might be good to reach out to find out what he meant by that tweet
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Loqi [mention] https://aaronparecki.com/ commented '@misuba Interesting... would love to hear more about this analogy. Come to the n...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-02-24-homebrew-website-club (https://aaronparecki.com/2016/02/16/12/)
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@aaronpk @misuba Interesting... would love to hear more about this analogy. Come to the next HWC to talk about it? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-02-24-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/699780468586074114)
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aaronpk yess my mention beat the tweet
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aaronpk it's always somewhat surprising when my code works
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aaronpk s/code/rube goldberg machine
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: it's always somewhat surprising when my rube goldberg machine works
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tantek aaronpk - particularly interested in your thoughts on: https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Feature_consideration_checkin
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tantek already iterated based on feedback from kylewm
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@misuba @aaronpk not saying there aren't strategies for making the indieweb more abuse-resistant than silos, I'm just newly shy of tech-as-solution. (twitter.com/_/status/699790318997102592)
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Loqi [bridgy] Mike Sugarbaker replied '@aaronpk not saying there aren't strategies for making the indieweb more abuse-r...' to a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-02-24-homebrew-website-club (https://twitter.com/misuba/status/699790318997102592)
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KartikPrabhu Loqi messages?
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Loqi :)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Mark Matienzo: My Jekyll todo list" http://matienzo.org/2016/jekyll-todo-list/
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KartikPrabhu goes through logs while recovering from HDD failure
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cweiske.de edited /read (+103) "/* Other Examples */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /read (+55) "/* Christian Weiske */" (view diff)
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@tinokremer @benwerd why is your site not accepting webmentions for likes? See https://tinokremer.nl/2016/liked-ben-werdm%c3%bcllers-post-on-werdio-9fcec1e2a4 (twitter.com/_/status/699841530635358208)
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tantek Alright here goes nothing
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Loqi [mention] Mx A. Matienzo posted "My Jekyll todo list" http://matienzo.org/2016/jekyll-todo-list/ that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/, https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention, https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE, https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub, and http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry https://webmention.io/notification/tmZsaGOaBEXs1xkmFk0hjQ
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tantek My IG is already set to private as I said I would days ago
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petermolnar.eu edited /Planning (+175) "adding Brighton, UK to the potential list" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /StartSSL (+354) "adding criticism" (view diff)
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cweiske kylewm, when subscribing to a feed in woodwind - how long does it take for the posts to appear?
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 26 minutes ago: have you read all the books on http://cweiske.de/books.htm ? if so, could you add it as an example here: https://indiewebcamp.com/read#Other_Examples http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-16/line/1455656991945
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cweiske !tell kylewm woodwind does not respect the base href in h-feeds; see http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/feed/index.htm
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske.de edited /rel-feed (+55) "/* How */ add example" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /rel-feed (+233) "/* Publishing */" (view diff)
KitB, kylewm, __number5__, Phyks, saurik, g3funk, sdboyer, davidascher, endi, voxpelli, kronda, JonathanNeal, tobiastom, jihaisse, mattl, iboxifoo, cjk101010, uranther, davbo, cleverdevil, bigbluehat, bret and CaptainCalliope joined the channel
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Loqi [mention] someone wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortlinks https://webmention.io/notification/j-gELK7If2Ofp_U05zRceA
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calumryan.com edited /Planning (+30) "/* Brighton, UK */" (view diff)
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@pierreozoux RT @georgkaser With #Picasa another hosted Service will be closed soon. Time to take control of your content in future! #selfhosted #indieweb #ilovefs (twitter.com/_/status/699923585696190465)
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@IndieHosters RT @georgkaser With #Picasa another hosted Service will be closed soon. Time to take control of your content in future! #selfhosted #indieweb #ilovefs (twitter.com/_/status/699923585767489536)
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@BoolKiRool RT @georgkaser With #Picasa another hosted Service will be closed soon. Time to take control of your content in future! #selfhosted #indieweb #ilovefs (twitter.com/_/status/699927593273987072)
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tantek.com edited /private_account (+603) "/* Twitter */ document steps for Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /private_account (+279) "Note Facebook has privacy per post, not a single private account feature" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /privacy (+1391) "Google+ Settings and quoted options." (view diff)
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tantek !tell snarfed I couldn't find a "private account" switch for Google+, closest I found were these settings: https://indiewebcamp.com/privacy#Google_Plus Do you know how to switch a G+ account to private?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+22) "/* Brighton, UK */ yay Brighton!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /privacy (+965) "Flickr" (view diff)
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@elpep @franckpaul ah méh ? On ne s'était pas occupés du support webmentions dans @dotclear ?! #jeperdslaboule (twitter.com/_/status/699970581941374976)
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@cstanhope RT @georgkaser With #Picasa another hosted Service will be closed soon. Time to take control of your content in future! #selfhosted #indieweb #ilovefs (twitter.com/_/status/699971344490823680)
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@elpep @franckpaul Ah non : pingbacks only. C'est vrai que les webmentions, c'était encore un peu trop frais á l'époque. (twitter.com/_/status/699978350891237376)
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Loqi [indieweb] "#indieweb" http://belp.audio/post/139482785172
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@belp_audio #indieweb (Source: schamonimusik) (http://belp.audio/post/139482785172/indieweb#_=_) https://twitter.com/belp_audio/status/699979840334622720/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/699979840334622720)
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notizblog.org edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (-5) "/* 2015 */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (-10) "/* 2013 */" (view diff)
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bupkes
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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@schnarfed @mihai @Medium hell yes, POSSE! https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (great post btw. :P) (twitter.com/_/status/700015630829776896)
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tantek hmm - how long has Plancast.com been down?
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aaronpk what!
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tantek I know it was sorta running on autopilot since 2012, however I thought it was set to auto-reboot etc.
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tantek looks like last archive.org crawl was last month! http://web.archive.org/web/20160120123152/http://plancast.com/
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GWG Afternoon all
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+863) "Plancast gone since ~2016-01-21" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] Wait, did Facebook Instant Articles turn into POSH? https://developers.facebook.com/docs/instant-articles/guides/articlecreate
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tantek o rly
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[kevinmarks] rel=facebook
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tantek wat
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[kevinmarks] Address elements with empty a tags
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tantek o_O
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tantek.com edited /privacy (+700) "last.fm" (view diff)
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tantek thanks last.fm: " An error occurred while processing your request." Reference #97.(long hex string)
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cweiske does anyone use id attributes in their posts?
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cweiske how do you handle double IDs in h-feeds?
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tantek I think for that reason a lot of people stopped
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tantek cweiske: I used to use IDs on my posts from 2002-2008
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singpolyma double ids?
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tantek duplicates
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cweiske singpolyma, I add ids to each paragraph, image, blockquote... in posts
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cweiske and offer mouse-over links: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/unsupported-406.htm#spec-q1
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cweiske so you can jump to each paragraph
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tantek yes that's very cool
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singpolyma oh, hmm
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singpolyma I see
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[kevinmarks] So, as silos render pages wholly with js;dr frameworks, they are writing style guides for publishers on how to write declarative html for them to parse?
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tantek cweiske, have you found a solution for touch UIs like smart phones?
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cweiske I currently don't care about touch
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[kevinmarks] Cweiske have you looked at fragmentions?
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cweiske and now that I have full-text h-feed pages http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/feed/index.htm I get double IDs
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tantek KevinMarks: it's pretty funny isn't? The silos are essentially recommending their own indexing / searchability / historical archive demise as compared to independent publisher sites
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cweiske fragmentions are no alternative for me
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cweiske requires JS, and breaks the standards
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cweiske with its double ##
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tantek cweiske: I was auto-generating unique IDs for posts based on the permashortlink paths for each post
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[kevinmarks] No longer uses double ##
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tantek I *could* auto-generate numbered paragraph ids that used those post-based unique IDs as prefixes, thus avoiding duplicate IDs
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tantek presumably you could use a similar approach
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cweiske I'm using a script similar to this:
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cweiske tantek I *could* auto-generate numbered paragraph ids that used those post-based unique IDs as prefixes, thus avoiding duplicate IDs
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cweiske tantek presumably you could use a similar approach
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cweiske err
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cweiske http://p.cweiske.de/144
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gRegorLove What is POSH?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/POSH
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cweiske maybe I have to prefix the ids on index pages
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cweiske should be simple enough
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gregorlove.com edited /POSH (+1) "period" (view diff)
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tantek I stopped using IDs because I didn't want people link to ephemeral IDs on my home page
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tantek since they scroll off anyway
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tantek and there's no way to say, for this post, use this "base" URL and then the ID, so that they link to the permalink of the post instead of the home page
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tantek maybe with JS? (ew)
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loqi.me created /warrant_canary (+224) "prompted by kylewm and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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singpolyma could always render them as full URLs instead of just #thing
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kylewm.com edited /warrant_canary (+258) "add withknown.com to indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek my Elsewhere list keeps getting shorter
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[shaners] Loqi, messages?
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Loqi :)
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@jden415 why i wish browsers / web platform had native fragmention support https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention https://twitter.com/rauchg/status/700046124879519744 (twitter.com/_/status/700046515968999424)
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@dkrentzlin I really begin to like the indieweb. Look at this https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention It's the basics of some very neat ideas. via @hmans (twitter.com/_/status/700048261604843521)
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loqi.me created /Kindle (+188) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Kindle (+88) "citation, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Kindle (+242) "criticism" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Kindle (+144) "/* Remote Book Deletion */ citations" (view diff)
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snarfed got a (mass) invitation from FB to an in person app developer focus group
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snarfed doubt it'd be meaningful, but still
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 6 minutes ago: I couldn't find a "private account" switch for Google+, closest I found were these settings: https://indiewebcamp.com/privacy#Google_Plus Do you know how to switch a G+ account to private? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-17/line/1455717800334
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KevinMarks go and get the issues ont he record
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snarfed tantek: G+ privacy settings are per post, like FB (and maybe flickr?)
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KevinMarks and write up their responses
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tantek snarfed, ok good to know
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snarfed KevinMarks: which issues? honestly not sure what i'd want to advocate for or against
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tantek snarfed: or perhaps you talk to the right friendly person at get Bridgy a long life grandfathering of various access APIs?
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KevinMarks well, the id/url mapping stuff
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snarfed i guess
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snarfed i'm reluctant to talk about bridgy much since i honestly don't think they'd like
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/700042272436453376
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@kevinmarks long haul: “I was talking to @Stewart Butterfield about the chat application they're trying here.” @cshirky in 2003 http://www.shirky.com/writings/herecomeseverybody/group_enemy.html (twitter.com/_/status/700042272436453376)
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snarfed i expect it's still too small for them to get worked up about, but still
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snarfed benwerd probably got the same invitation; he might be a better candidate than me
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bkardell hola?
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tantek hello bkardell !
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tantek so it did work!
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bkardell Can you hear me now?
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tantek I see you and so do the logs
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bkardell sadly I cannot hear you back if you can
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tantek weird!
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tantek guess you have to reload once in a while?
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tantek aaronpk: ^^^ want to help debug the live IRC logs? bkardell has a wonky work connection
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aaronpk waves
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aaronpk seems to work fine for me. make sure you're on the https URL?
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tantek he is
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aaronpk weird. I don't know what could be blocking it. it's pretty much regular http requests now, not on a different port or anything.
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kylewm all I got was this app developer survey email :(
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Loqi kylewm: cweiske left you a message 11 hours, 13 minutes ago: woodwind does not respect the base href in h-feeds; see http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/feed/index.htm http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-17/line/1455701920207
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benwerd wakes up and scrolls up - snarfed, can you clarify which invitation?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2/7 at 12:53pm: indieweb public timeline brainstorm captured - feel free to expand/edit! https://indiewebcamp.com/public_timeline#public_indieweb_notes_stream http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-07/line/1454878435314
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2/10 at 6:32pm: coming to HWC? ETA? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-10/line/1455157937769
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tantek heh
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benwerd I need to talk more
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@withknown Mad props to our shared hosting sponsors @DreamHost, who have an awesome deal right now: https://www.dreamhost.com/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/700062444014579715)
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snarfed kylewm: open the survey, that's where the in person invitation is
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snarfed benwerd: facebook developer survey/focus group invitation. probably in your email.
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benwerd ah. yes. I did respond to that.
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snarfed i'm a bit scared to raise bridgy on their radar at all :P
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kylewm dang, that base url issue is going to be hard to solve
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aaronpk i don't understand why it's so complicated. this isn't new technology, hasn't this been solved a long time ago?
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kylewm i process the mf2 output, and convert relative URLs in e-content to absolute. but at that point, do not have access to the html
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tantek yep
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kylewm geez, ok
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benwerd snarfed: yeah, I can see that. I'm happy to raise metadata issues from Known's perspective - we were approved comparatively recently for some tasks
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snarfed benwerd: thanks!
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benwerd snarfed: I don't have a confirmed date, but let me know if there are specific questions / issues you'd like to be raised, and I'll do my best to bring them up if I end up meeting with them
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benwerd (My big one is storing metadata, eg a pointer to an external resource, to make up for the lack of "see original" links)
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snarfed1 for bridgy, it's mostly the different problems translating between the graph api and the web, specifically FB profile/post/comment URLs
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snarfed1 all the different id/url formats, usernames vs global user ids vs app scoped, etc
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@franckpaul @elpep cela dit, je crois pas qu’il y ait beaucoup de différence entre webmention et pingback, si ? (twitter.com/_/status/700068995052015616)
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matrrix
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kylewm !tell cweiske urls are normalized for video and source tags now, and the base tag should be respected. thanks for the heads up. let me know if it's not working correctly still.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@INC_says You have questions? Ask. On Twitter, Facebook, email, etc. #Inc_says #Roku #RokuUK #indie ##indiefilm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/700080023781449728)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2016/MIT/Guest_List (+117) "another rsvp from eventbrite" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2016/MIT/Guest_List (-105) "/* RSVPs from other sites */ img from FB seems to not work without login/cookie" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] TIL that posts on gnusocial are known as queets (from Quitter)
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Erkan_Yilmaz they are also called dents (from back when Sn was running on identi.ca)
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Erkan_Yilmaz would an outsider know what queet dent means? so a more neutral way like message post is better
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KevinMarks I didn't say it was a good name
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Erkan_Yilmaz right
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Calli Not sure if there are many iOS users amongst you all, but I released a new version of my Safari extension "Links from Callionica" today http://callionica.com/to-app-store-links. It's not open, but it is free! Some of you might find it useful for viewing/sharing URLs.
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Calli At some point I hope to get my microformats parsing code into a shipping product, but it's not this version of this app.
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Calli BTW I'm interested in whether anyone has seen FB Instant Articles on the public web?
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Calli The docs seem to suggest setting up private feeds that only FB can see. But is anyone doing it publicly?
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Calli Sadly I see plenty of AMP around these days (my Safari extension makes it easy to see).
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[kevinmarks] That fb doc I linked earlier was a bit odd, in that they said how to mark up posts, but then said to escape them and stuff in an rss 2 file
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[kevinmarks] Though today's spoiler for the amp launch implied that they would read actual web pages
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tantek ooh "actual web pages"?!?
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Calli Yeah - it's wacky - those docs said that you had to supply RSS and the canonical links had to be live pages
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[kevinmarks] http://recode.net/2016/02/17/facebook-is-ready-to-publish-instant-articles-from-every-publisher-around-the-world/
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[kevinmarks] But the canonical links are to non ia pages?
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Calli "You should only publish new stories via your Instant Articles RSS feed when they are also publicly available on your website. The Instant Articles system requires access to each article's standard web URL to render the content properly."
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Calli Yes - canonical in the IA markup goes to regular public HTML (AFAICT)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Mad props to our shared hosting sponsors @DreamHost, who have an awesome deal right now: https://dreamhost.com/redir.cgi?promo=known595" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2016/mad-props-to-our-shared-hosting-sponsors-dreamhost-who-have