#indiewebcamp 2016-04-06

2016-04-06 UTC
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@WPKickStart1 Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/717499100573335552)
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aaronpk finally shut down that server
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aaronpk going to wait a couple days to see if anything is horribly broken then finally get rid of it
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aaronpk did not expect that to be a two-day project
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tantek aaronpk: worth writing up a post-morten?
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tantek s/morten/mortem
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk: worth writing up a post-mortem?
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aaronpk probably not, lol. nothing terribly interesting, and I feel like I should not waste any more time on it :P
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aaronpk okay was typing up a "short" version and there might be enough for a short blog post instead of one IRC line
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sriperi Hello there! I think I need some serious help latching on to the indieweb network!
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aaronpk sriperi: welcome!
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sriperi Aaron! Thank you! Is this where I could ask for help?
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aaronpk sure!
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sriperi Great! So the other day I added the indieweb plugin to my self hosted wordpress portal
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sriperi And added the rel="me" links for my twitter account..But for some reason, when I try the indiewebify.me link to check if things are okay..
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sriperi it says it found the tag but coudn't fetch the link..Wonder what I'm missing out here
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aaronpk strange, what's your website URL?
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sriperi Here you go http://srikanthperinkulam.com/
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sriperi For whatever its worth I even installed the syndication links plugin...doesn't work even then
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aaronpk can you try changing the link to https://twitter instead of http?
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aaronpk i think it's just a problem with indiewebify.me not following that redirect
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aaronpk you can also try signing in on https://indieauth.com/
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sriperi I tried both the https and the http. Doesn't budge on both
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aaronpk that's odd. it appears to be a bug with indiewebify.me though.
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aaronpk try on https://indieauth.com
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sriperi Indieauth says there were no rel=me tags found...
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KartikPrabhu I don't see a rel-me in your source
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aaronpk it looks like indieauth.com isn't handling the protocol-relative URL to //twitter.com
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sriperi Interesting..I see the re-me in the source here..
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KartikPrabhu is it in the head ?
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sriperi Yeah.
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah there it is
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KartikPrabhu sriperi: try puttiing the full URL including https
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: does php-mf2 not manke URLs absolute?
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KartikPrabhu or whatever parser indiewebify.me uses
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aaronpk indiewebify seemed to resolve the twitter URL fine, but it's having trouble "fetching" the URL which is probably due to google appengine's weird URL handling
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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aaronpk indieauth.com parses the page itself and is not properly resolving the protocol-relative URL
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sriperi Ive inserted the whole link there (With the https..)
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aaronpk sriperi: do you have a wordpress caching plugin running? I don't see anything different
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sriperi Oh Yeah..Let me flush that
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sriperi indieauth doesnt seem to read the http for some reason. I put in a link to my fb profile too with the rel-me tag..
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aaronpk I still see protocol relative URLs... https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-18-26-45.png
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aaronpk also indieauth.com doesn't work with facebook at all
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sriperi neat..
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aaronpk do you have some other plugin that's changing all your URLs to protocol relative URLs? it looks like almost every link on the page is protocol relative
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KartikPrabhu same here
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sriperi Not quite sure..It did stand out when I was looking at the source..
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sriperi The only plugin I can remotely think of is cloudflare..
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aaronpk whoa is that something cloudflare does?
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KartikPrabhu it can if the connection is not https
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aaronpk (it can if it's https too, since it's providing the https)
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sriperi a far stretched guess
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gRegorLove ben_thatmustbeme: Getting a PHP fatal error on your site currently. "Failed opening...system/engine/action.php"
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sriperi sriperi
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gregorlove.com edited /blogroll (+62) "dfn" (view diff)
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aaronpk eep "Cannot allocate memory" ben_thatmustbeme
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KevinMarks that's odd: https://brid.gy/facebook/688447421193285# why does kyle have no wm targets?
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gRegorLove Found some more /rel-values on /follower: follower, following, and contact
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gRegorLove First two are from /pants, which isn't in development anymore.
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gRegorLove I was wondering if I needed to use any additional markup for a list of people I'm following other than h-card.
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gRegorLove Came across those
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aaronpk not until something consumes it :)
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gRegorLove ben_thatmustbeme has something (maybe it's that rel=contact), which I thought his Vouch code consumed. Might just be rel=me that points to a page on the same domain though.
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gRegorLove I want my webmention plugin to consume a page of h-cards and use the URLs it finds as a default whitelist
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aaronpk tantek: here you go https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/05/10/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Several Days of Server Migrations Later
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tantek gRegorLove: see microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming
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gRegorLove What is XFN?
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Loqi XFN is an abbreviation for XHTML Friends Network, the network of visible links across blogs that claim various XFN relationships with/to each other https://indiewebcamp.com/XFN
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tantek aaronpk++ nice write-up - I feel like that's at least deserving of /web_hosting#Articles or something about /admin_tax and other related things
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Loqi aaronpk has 106 karma
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gRegorLove Hm, so http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-following#follower_and_tantek invited people to use rel-following in 2011 and register with HTML5, but I don't see it on existing-rel-values. Based on current /rel-values page seems I shouldn't bother with it, right?
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Loqi XFN Brainstorming
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gRegorLove Hah. Messed up that link.
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gRegorLove http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-following#follower_and_following .tantek invited....
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Loqi XFN Brainstorming
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gRegorLove Think I'll keep it simple and just allow the user to paste in a URL tha thas h-cards and use those as the whitelist basis.
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tantek gRegorLove: no, it's just a phase, we brainstorm things, then prototype / experiment, then if things get traction (publishing & consuming), then we start specing/formalizing
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gRegorLove s/tha thas/that has/
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tantek everything new was once just an idea'
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: Think I'll keep it simple and just allow the user to paste in a URL that has h-cards and use those as the whitelist basis.
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gRegorLove If anything, I'd rather try class="h-card u-following"
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tantek gRegorLove: properties only make sense in the context of an object
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tantek if you want to experiment, use -x-, e.g. u-x-following
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tantek and what parent h-* object is that supposed to be part of?
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tantek your instincts are right that based on /rel-values discussion of rel vs class, it may be better to explore experiments with u-x-* instead
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gRegorLove Nevermind, didn't think that one through fully
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tantek that's the one advantage rel values - they already have the context of a parent object - the whole page
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gRegorLove Yeah, but would that mean I have to put one followee per page?
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tantek whenever you're not sure, think of rel values like stylesheet
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tantek a page can have multiple style sheets that apply to it
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gRegorLove This is my following page in progress: http://gregorlove.com/following/
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tantek seems reasonable
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gRegorLove Does it make sense to say "http://gregorlove.com/following/ is following Tantek", or shouldn't it be "http://gregorlove.com/ is following Tantek"?
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Music Monday: Walk Off the Earth
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gRegorLove Oope. Need to fix that. Thanks, Loqi
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tantek part of the challenge with a lot of the newer proposed rel values is that they were proposed without specific consuming code use-cases (that anyone had any intent of actually building - beyond just "someone could use it to do x")
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tantek right that's the problem/challenge with rel values - they only indicate the "from" as the page itself
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gRegorLove What is following?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") http://indiewebcamp.com/following
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gregorlove.com edited /follower (+210) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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KevinMarks the advantage of xfn is that has a decent installed base in wordpress, though creating blogrolls is not so popular these days
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tantek KevinMarks: sort of. the UI for adding XFN links is quite buried now in WordPress
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tantek and the challenge is that since Google Social Graph API shutdown, no more popular (or even minor?) consuming applications (beyond rel=me / RelMeAuth / Web Sign-in / IndieAuth)
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tantek without that feedback loop - it's not even clear how much of the XFN data out there is accurate or has just decayed like meta data tends to
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aaronpk kylewm: we decided it was my fault that my tweets show up with " in them right?
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aaronpk (using silo.pub)
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aaronpk Oh yeah I remember.
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aaronpk Gotta add that to my todo list tomorrow
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@robertnyman @stephenhay Personally, I use the POSSE approach for anything I publish on Medium: https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/717606687847399424)
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@iRhodes RT @robertnyman @stephenhay Personally, I use the POSSE approach for anything I publish on Medium: https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/717612149783269376)
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calumryan.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+16) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell gRegorLove yikes! thanks for the heads up. Screw up on Host Tornado. :/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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@Inkwater_Masha The Top 10 Mistakes #Writers Make When #Self-Publishing a Book—#2&3 absolute musts—http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013/the-top-ten-mistakes-writers-make-when-self-publishing-a-book/?platform=hootsuite #indieauth #amwriting (twitter.com/_/status/717737472520765440)
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GWG I have to work on my indenting
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kylewm GWG: what editor do you use?
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GWG kylewm, vi.
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GWG But I still seem to get it wrong enough to annoy.
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aaronpk heh I just realized that I do in fact make micropub requests that both replace and add values in a single request
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aaronpk and if that weren't possible, my editor would have to make two requests
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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kylewm GWG: vim?
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tantek HWC Brighton starts in a little over an hour IIRC
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GWG I have been working on bringing improvements to the WordPress Webmentions plugin.
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tantek GWG - did you see the feedback last night on getting WordPress set up and working with the IndieWeb plugin and IndieAuth?
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GWG kylewm, you suggested configuration settings before.
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tantek GWG, start here: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-05#t1459904802513
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tantek Let's see if we can figure out how to make that experience incrementally better
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GWG tantek, no. I thought I read yesterday's log. Will look now.
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aaronpk i think nothing was wrong with the indieweb plugins based on that discussion
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tantek aaronpk: it's not a matter of "nothing was wrong", it's a matter of "how can we make that experience better overall?"
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aaronpk i mean that the issues had nothing to do with the wordpress plugin
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GWG I agree with aaronpk, but it is still the issue I was working on with putting rel me into the Indieweb plugin.
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aaronpk it pointed out different bugs in indieauth.com and indiewebify.me
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tantek I'm willing to bet there is *some* sort of improvement(s) we can make to IndieWeb plugin, and IndieWebify.me, and even IndieAuth to better detect specific errors and provide more specific actionable steps to fix problems
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tantek at a minimum, did the bugs get filed in github issues on indiewebify and indieauth?
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GWG That was what was stalling me, so after not moving on the issue, I took a break
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tantek second, since that's the current state, IndieWeb plugin could check for the cases that cause those errors, and help the blog author work around them
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tantek there's always something we can do, in any of those places, to improve the overall experience
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tantek GWG, if you don't want to take a look at that set of issues, here's another one instead
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tantek GWG, see if you can @-reply to @misuba and figure out what specific issues he is having: https://twitter.com/misuba/status/715014084878405634
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@misuba @indiewebcamp now I have time to clarify that I'm talking about this: https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/715014084878405634)
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GWG tantek, some of what I was working on was also in that area. I am keeping it on my list.
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tantek GWG, great, thank you.
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GWG I did a lot of work in January on improving user friendliness
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tantek I think that's why we're seeing more feedback! More users because it's more user friendly :)
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GWG I just stalled from late January through March.
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GWG tantek, I didn't deploy from Github to WordPress.org, so maybe not
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tantek Usually more feedback is a good sign, it means more people are 1) trying it, and 2) getting far enough to think it's worth the time to ask for help (rather than just give up)
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tantek GWG - sure, if there's gh vs wp org diff, you can point that out and suggest the person try the newer one
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GWG tantek, keep on me. I find it encouraging/motivating. But I'm going to do a little webmentions work and see if I can return to Indieweb after
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tantek GWG, would be great if you could @-reply misuba and provide him encouragement too!
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tantek encourage forward as it were :)
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GWG I thought I did,but will check.
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GWG Maybe I just thought I did
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tantek reloads
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GWG A few days ago
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tantek GWG huh - I didn't see it on https://twitter.com/misuba/status/715014084878405634
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@misuba @indiewebcamp now I have time to clarify that I'm talking about this: https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/715014084878405634)
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GWG I might have just meant to
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tantek heh - I do that sometimes too :)
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GWG Lots of stuff going on
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GWG I'm still trying to figure out what else is missing from the webmentions implementation
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GWG Been reading the specification
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tantek GWG, any suggestions you have for helping clarify it are welcome!
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tantek especially with regards to "what should you implement next" (positive framing), rather than "what else is missing"
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GWG What would everyone say are the most unique features of webmentions?
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tantek most unique? what's the context you're asking in/about?
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GWG Well, pfefferle implemented the Webmention plugin for WordPress before the specification was as fleshed out as it is now.
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GWG I have been going and tweaking the plugin to reflect the recommendations
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tantek ah, iterating prototype to current spect
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tantek s/spect/specification
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Loqi tantek meant to say: ah, iterating prototype to current specification
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GWG I want to get as much benefit as possible
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tantek GWG, in this case, more important may be to make it as conformant to the current spec as possible
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tantek reliability that is, as the "benefit"
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tantek GWG, how are you testing it?
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GWG Asynchronous processing is one I have put off for a bit because of concerns about race conditions.
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tantek aside: next IWC NYC - thoughts?
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tantek I'm thinking later July as a possibility?
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GWG tantek, my schedule switched to Saturday Sunday off.
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tantek we don't currently have an IWC planned in July
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tantek GWG woot!
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Loqi giggles
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GWG Also warmer weather this time is what I would vote for
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GWG July is wide open for me
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tantek great!
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tantek I have YxYY July 8-11, and then family stuff the next weekend, but then after that I think I'm available too
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GWG In the pull request I sent pfefferle, I rewrote the plugin to allow for drop in replacement of the current synchronous handler with an asynchronous one.
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tantek is that awaiting review? is that the issue?
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GWG So even though I am not writing one right now, someone could add it.
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GWG tantek, one PR is awaiting review.
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GWG I intend to add more
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GWG There are several open issues on the project
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GWG Including snarfed's issue about supporting pages in addition to posts, requests for 'exotic' webmentions to be supported...
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GWG Delete support...
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tantek 'exotic'?
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tantek GWG, delete would be good
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tantek also updates
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GWG tantek, improving update is on my personal list, which would be in the same category in my mind.
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tantek GWG, update and delete are quite different in terms of both protocol, and especially UX!
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tantek !tell shaners how "firm" are the IWC LA dates?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG tantek, but not in terms of the changes that I need to make to the code.
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tantek really? I would think lots of different changes would be needed
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GWG Right now you can't identify the difference between a new webmention and an existing one.
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tantek sure I can see how there would be *some* common code for update/delete, however, I think there's also a lot more unique code for each
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GWG This is more about where to put the hooks
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GWG The way pfefferle designed it is the handlers are replaceable
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GWG So I want to keep that design.
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GWG It is also a good design if we try someday to get a version of it into Core.
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tantek good thinking
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tantek It's pretty clear that Matt is watching our WordPress Webmentions work closely
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tantek (no pressure ;) )
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GWG So, update and delete would both be hooked off the code that identifies existing webmentions.
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GWG tantek, also why I wanted to do some updates for Webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks. Recent articles are encouraging installs, I'd imagine
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tantek definitely!
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tantek are people filing issues?
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tantek or mostly just tweeting about it?
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GWG tantek, I'm the biggest filer of issues. That is where I keep ideas of what I want to do.
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GWG Not many new issues.
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GWG Most of the stuff at the top of my list involves refactoring.
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GWG Right now, the webmentions plugin retrieves the source, then the Semantic Linkbacks plugin does it again.
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GWG I have always been annoyed by that
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GWG So, in Wordpress 4.5, coming this month, pingbacks pass the source to somewhere Semantic Linkbacks can retrieve.
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GWG Regrettably, doesn't add a new feature.
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+802) "note IWC LA has a page and appears to have fairly firm dates, New York City 2 planning! Dates and some initial +1/-1s" (view diff)
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tantek GWG, kylewm, could you take a moment to add +1/0/-1s to the dates here? https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#New_York_City_2
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aaronpk oh man, now i wish i wasn't going to NY in May so I could justify going in July
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tantek aaronpk: how about August?
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tantek those dates actually look better for me
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+49) "/* New York City 2 */ update a pref" (view diff)
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[shaners] tantek: IWC LA dates are Firm™. Why’s that?
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: how "firm" are the IWC LA dates? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459960583500
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tantek shaners++ awesome!
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Loqi shaners has 27 karma
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tantek shaners - add it to https://indiewebcamp.com/events#Upcoming !
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[shaners] Pivotal is providing lots of space. A handful of people to be around to help with logistics, I expect several Pivots will attend as well. The office has very fast internet. AV gear already set up in the common area (intros / demos) and video chat in all of the conference rooms. They will provide at least one meal, maybe more. I’ll prolly line up another sponsor or two just to help out. But it’s a pretty full package here.
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aaronpk I might be able to pull off August, as long as it's not Aug 6-7
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[shaners] I’m giving a lunch time 10 minute talk about #indieweb, IWC and (briefly) Dark Matter later this month to the office. And then we’ll be doing weekly hack nights to build up to IWC in November.
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tantek.com edited /Planning (-12) "move LA to planned!" (view diff)
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tantek shaners will the weekly hack nights be on Wednesdays by any chance?
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[shaners] They can be. Is that HWC night?
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tantek yes! and a "hacknight" is a perfectly acceptable alternative format for HWC
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[shaners] :+1::skin-tone-2:
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tantek shaners awesome - when is the lunch time 10 min talk? today?
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+89) "/* New York City 2 */ add an aaronpk pref" (view diff)
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[shaners] 2016–04-26 Tuesday
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tantek aaronpk, noted. will let you specificy +1/0 for the other August dates yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#New_York_City_2
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tantek shaners - great - also worth adding to /events
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aaronpk definitely add more things to /events! They get included in the weekly newsletters now :)
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tantek hmm - a little worried about jgarber
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kylewm tantek: why?
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tantek haven't heard from him in a while
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aaronpk emmak: hello! will you be able to make it to Homebrew Website Club this evening?
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emmak aaronpk: yes, i think i can make it today
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aaronpk \o/
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tantek checks the RSVPs
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tantek emmak: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club#Portland :)
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snarfed released granary 1.3.0! posts video, scrapes instagram and google+, deeper facebook data handling, lots more. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/granary/1.3.0
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@brightgreenpath Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress https://www.linkedin.com/slink?code=ewmPMhb (twitter.com/_/status/717761148766912512)
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@OcalaWebs Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for #WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ #SEO (twitter.com/_/status/717761045079588864)
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notenoughneon.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+12) "/* Portland */" (view diff)
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tantek hmm, I think I found an interesting (quirky? rare?) person-tagging use-case, specifically, for when I *only* want to person-tag IF I can be assured of the person-tag having a specific point (or rect) on the photo
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tantek normally when I person-tag photos, it's "ok" for it to just be a list of people, because typically the people's faces are visible, and I can order the tags left-to-right, top to bottom.
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tantek however sometimes a photo only has parts of people (hands, arms, feet), and in that case it only really makes sense (to me at least) to person-tag if I can pin the person-tags on the parts in the photo
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tantek example: http://tantek.com/2016/097/t3/plantventure-finds
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] a jpgYesterday’s #plantventure finds.
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tantek (no person-tags on that post because I don't have /area-tag support for my person-tags)
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tantek yet because I can pick a point / (square around a point) in FB, I manually tagged the FB POSSE copy
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aaronpk tantek: does cassis have a function that returns the length of text like twitter's counter? I see tw_length_check but not tw_length
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aaronpk oh I think I can do tw_text_proxy(text).length
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tantek yes that is the purpose of tw_text_proxy
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tantek interesting. now I'm curious what you're using it for
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aaronpk showing the number of characters remaining like how twitter does
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[kevinmarks] It also gives you something to put in a preview (noterlive.com uses that)
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[kevinmarks] See the markup and css I pinched from twitter for that preview
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tantek KevinMarks: use auto_link for a preview - not tw_text_proxy!
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loqi.me created /Annotate_app (+158) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk cool! yet tw_length_check should work for that
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[kevinmarks] Hm, good point. Though I'd need to add my link trimming to the js auto_link
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tantek (showing number of characters remaining)
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tantek your link trimming?
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aaronpk tantek: but tw_length_check only tells me whether it will fit, not how many chars are left
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[kevinmarks] I do twitter style protocol stripping and truncation
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tantek checks his code for how he does that
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[kevinmarks] https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/blob/master/web/index.html#L107
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tantek aaronpk - yes I use both in my code
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[kevinmarks] Is how I do it in noterlive
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tantek $postleft = $tw_max_len - strlen(tw_text_proxy($nextpost));
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aaronpk tw_max_len = 140 i assume?
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[shaners] Instaparser looks really interesting.
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[shaners] http://blog.instapaper.com/post/142296652536
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tantek yes
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[shaners] Imagine if we could get them to output a mf2 representation.
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tantek is it open source?
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[shaners] No. It’s a product extracted from Instapaper. Pay per use.
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aaronpk interesting
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[shaners] Or at least, we can build an adapter on top of it.
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[shaners] https://www.instaparser.com
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[kevinmarks] We can talk to them, they did fragmention support before
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[shaners] That’s interesting. I never got any traction from them on better export formatting. Or putting real datetime’s on their website. But maybe you’ll have better luck with them.
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tantek what is instaparser?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "instaparser" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hc
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tantek what is Instapaper?
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Loqi Instapaper is a content hosting silo for bookmarks https://indiewebcamp.com/Instapaper
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tantek what is noterlive?
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Loqi NoterLive is a live-noting tool that post to twitter and compiles the notes for posting as a full post https://indiewebcamp.com/noterlive
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[shaners] Whoa. I just got a 500 from YouTube.
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[shaners] Refreshed and fixed. But I screenshotted first. :grimacing:
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aaronpk tantek: do you use colors to indicate the various states returned by tw_length_check?
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tantek I do!
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tantek I append the return code from tw_length_check to a string and use that as a class name as a hook to style the number of chars left
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tantek from my style sheet:
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tantek .pcheck200,.pcheck206 { color:green }
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tantek .pcheck207,.pcheck208 { color:#C0C000 }
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tantek .pcheck200,.pcheck208 { outline:double 4px;}
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tantek .pcheck413 { color:red }
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aaronpk hm, running tw_text_proxy on keydown adds a noticeable lag to typing
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tantek dang really?
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aaronpk I'm concerned about also adding tw_length_check in there, since it runs tw_text_proxy itself
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tantek hmm maybe time to profile and optimize then
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[shaners] aaronpk: how about on change?
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aaronpk change only runs after i unfocus the field
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aaronpk i need it to run after every keypres
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[shaners] oh yeah
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tantek or at least after a 200ms pause
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tantek to avoid the keydown latency, but still get a (reasonably) quick update
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aaronpk it's really slight, but it's noticeable. I think I'll live with it for now
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tantek aaronpk: feel free to file it as an issue. "noticeable lag" is sufficiently precise ;)
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[shaners] aaronpk: is keyup as laggy as keydown?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek aaronpk: did you post an indie event + FB (or Calagator) POSSE copy for HWC PDX tonight?
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[shaners] bummer :confused:
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tantek could you add links to them to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club#RSVP ?
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tantek er, https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club#Portland
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aaronpk i did! https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/06/1/
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+45) "/* Portland */" (view diff)
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tantek !tell adactio,calumryan,jeena,aaronpk,kylewm,KevinMarks,lmorchard did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek looks backwards in time for the most recent HWC photo to use a featured photo on tonight's event
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aaronpk oh my that's a lot of tells
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tantek and it's Brighton from 4 weeks ago that wins
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kylewm We forgot :(
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459965493893
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lmorchard Alas, no photo, and an HWC meeting didn’t quite come together. It had been a JS meetup that we tried to repurpose, and it kind of reverted back to a JS meetup
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Loqi lmorchard: tantek left you a message 1 day, 23 hours ago: how was IWC Detroit two weeks ago? Were you able to get a co-organizer or take a photo or notes? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-04/line/1459794173249
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Loqi lmorchard: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459965493893
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+296) "add u-featured header image" (view diff)
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lmorchard We might try again tonight or see about shuffling dates around
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tantek lmorchard: definitely! do you have a co-organizer?
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lmorchard Yeah, though ironically, I don’t think he actually has a personal website :)
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aaronpk tantek: if you don't provide a username to tw_length_check does it just ignore the logic for returning that special case?
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tantek I'm not sure! Would have to check the code :)
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tantek I likely coded it defensively, to treat no username as zero length
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tantek but yeah, maybe I made it ignore that logic!
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+551) "header + image hackery + friendlier description at top" (view diff)
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tantek ok, once again, attempting a header-image style even with friendly description summary at the top - opinions? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club
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tantek e.g. compare to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club or https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-20-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk tantek: one more question. i don't quite understand the difference between 207 and 208.
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aaronpk "207 - more than RT safe length, but less than tweet max" and "208 - tweet max length but with RT would be over"
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tantek 207 means if someone RTs you, then text recipients will see truncation
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tantek 208 means you are the tweet max length limit, nothing else will fit period
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tantek 207 means you can still add more text, it just won't make it into RTs
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aaronpk oh, so 200 and 208 are the exact fit codes
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tantek yep see styling hints above ;)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+208) "/* Regular Meetings */" (view diff)
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tantek hence the double outline :)
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tantek hmm speaking of...
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veganstraightedge.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (-190) "/* Getting Started or Restarting */" (view diff)
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snarfed didn't the RT truncation thing stop a long time ago, when they integrated it as an official feature?
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aaronpk it still truncates for SMS as well as in the plaintext version from the API
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snarfed ah
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aaronpk which shows up here
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snarfed aww still? feature request, fix that? :P low priority though i guess.
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aaronpk what, RTs showing up in IRC?
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+114) "/* Weekly */ note Edinburgh was weekly in 2015, Thursdays then Tuesdays" (view diff)
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tantek !tell tbrb is HWC Edinburgh back to monthly? Just want to know so we can update this accordingly: https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Weekly
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed aaronpk: oh no, just using the original text, not the possibly truncated text
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aaronpk oh maybe i did fix that
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tantek snarfed - hence I said "text recipients will see truncation"
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aaronpk ah yeah i did
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snarfed tantek: ah! sorry, i didn't get SMS from "text." maybe just me.
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aaronpk if it's a RT, I build the text to show separately: 'RT @' + status.retweeted_status.user.screen_name + ' ' + status.retweeted_status.text
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tantek I *think* SMS is only one possible (likely) text-only recipient type
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tantek lmorchard: I tried to capture that about Detroit HWC here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Getting_Started_or_Restarting please feel free to update with any more details / status!
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tbrb tantek: I've been a bit forgetful in adding event pages, we have been meeting but just without a record
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Loqi tbrb: tantek left you a message on 3/14 at 10:28am: looks like Edinburgh 2015 sessions never got archived from Etherpads to the wiki - (e.g. Events). https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh Could you create wiki pages for each of those and copy the Etherpads into them? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-14/line/1457976536099
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Loqi tbrb: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: is HWC Edinburgh back to monthly? Just want to know so we can update this accordingly: https://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Weekly http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459966564884
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snarfed aaronpk: agreed! i do the same thing
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aaronpk alright! tweet length counter is live on quill!
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aaronpk no more opening twitter.com and typing my tweet then pasting it back in quill :D
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 107 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme by the way, what else uses JF2 like simplifications of mf2's representative json?
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aaronpk XRay
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aaronpk I also want to use it for the micropub syndication endpoint query response
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ben_thatmustbeme link for it? I wanted to put them in the spec for now
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aaronpk live instance is here https://xray.p3k.io/ code is https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay
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aaronpk now i need to add photo posting to the main quill note interface
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ben_thatmustbeme i have webmention.io listed too as i know it was mentioned as having a format for it
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ben_thatmustbeme or similar anyway
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aaronpk oh yeah
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tantek !tell tbrb would it help if we added Edinburgh on the "regular" wiki pages, and just put a big BOLD note saying TUESDAY for Edinburgh?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought something else used a json format
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tantek huh, curious why this post didn't make it to the channel: http://tantek.com/2016/097/t4/indieweb-homebrew-website-club
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tbrb Yeah, that may not be a bad idea tank
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tbrb *tantek
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Reminder: #IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club TONIGHT!
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tantek why the ... Loqi?
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek there was nothing left to truncate there!
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tantek tbrb - did you take photos at recent HWC Edinburgh?
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tbrb No recent ones, when people are around again we'll get some at one of the next ones
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tantek gRegorLove: your suggestion of a template for HWC meetups might be a particularly good idea for HWC Edinburgh, since their details are the same for every week, and they meet on Tuesdays (every week)
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tantek tbrb: do you have particular recent(-ish) HWC Edinburgh wiki page that you think is worthy of semi-automatically cloning to every remaining Tuesday in the year?
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tbrb Nothing that's particularly recent-ish
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tantek or even not recent-ish ;)
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aaronpk maybe i should add this feature to quill next https://github.com/mortenjust/cleartext-mac/blob/master/README.md
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tbrb tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/images/e/ed/150827_hwc_edi_group.jpg that's probably the only one I can think of :P
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tbrb we're not huge photo people haha
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PFMurph that's a pretty good photo
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tantek confirmed no HWC DC tonight
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ben_thatmustbeme woah, PFMurph, you are in #indiewebcamp proper now?
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-44) "-DC" (view diff)
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PFMurph ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, I've been doing quite a lot better on a personal level
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PFMurph tl;dr I probably won't end up trolling people in here
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (-373) "Washington DC canceled this week, back on in two weeks" (view diff)
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@miklb @olivermakes there have been some Q’s in #indieweb about HWC in DC. Any movement on that? (twitter.com/_/status/717782080495697926)
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miklb tantek I sent that tweet before you posted your update. I know jgarber mentoned oliverpattison was also trying to do the DC HWC
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tantek miklb: oh! well there's been no discussion of it nor updating of the wiki page
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tantek if you or oliverpattison can pull it off you're more than welcome to update https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club accordingly!
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tantek We can even post about the last minute update of DC venue to hopefully reach people in time
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miklb heh, I'm not in DC, but have been chatting a bit with oliverpattison about Jekyll & indieweb via Twitter
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tantek ok
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tantek please encourage oliver to show up here :)
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miklb wil do. I know he's been in channel a few times, but will suggest hang out more :-)
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kylewm PFMurph++ for real life upgrades
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Loqi PFMurph has 1 karma
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@ASKDesign2 @BlogAid Good to see you talk about WPMU Dev's glossing over security issues with trackbacks, pingbacks, & webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/717789083855101952)
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@DigestWordpress RT @OcalaWebs Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for #WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ #SEO (twitter.com/_/status/717787514329763844)
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@gotweetsgo Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for #WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ via @wpmudev (twitter.com/_/status/717787209428905984)
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kylewm what is WPMU?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WPMU" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10He
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kylewm "Folks, I’ve been telling you for going on 3 years now to turn off XML-RPC and that’s what these things [pingbacks and webmentions] use." -- is that true?
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voxpelli sounds odd if it were tied to xml-rpc :P
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gRegorLove I think it relies on some xmlrpc functions, but you can still safely disable the pingback method from those functions and support wm
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Loqi gRegorLove: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 4 hours, 55 minutes ago: yikes! thanks for the heads up. Screw up on Host Tornado. :/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459951783835
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singpolyma kylewm: webmention does not use XML-RPC at all. pingback technically does
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miklb kylewm WPMU was the mulit-user fork of WP before it was rolled into WP core. wpmudev was a site that focused on paid plugins for it.
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miklb now I'm not sure what it does exactly
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singpolyma pretty sure WPMU is dead and it's all just wordpress now
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singpolyma I run one MU instance
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singpolyma that used to be WPMU
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miklb singpolyma yes, it was merged in 3.0, though it still has to be "turned on" in config
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singpolyma right
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voxpelli a code search for "xml" and "rpc" in the wordpress plugin returns no xml-rpc:ish matches
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gregorlove.com edited /Wordpress_Webmention_Plugin (-3) "fix dfn+link, fix github link" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Sorry, I think I was thinking of the Semantic Linkbacks plugin, which upgrades the presentation of pingbacks.
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veganstraightedge.com edited /Events (+312) "/* Add IWC LA */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /WPMU (+23) "prompted by kylewm https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459969320401" (view diff)
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@mintzworld RT @robertnyman @stephenhay Personally, I use the POSSE approach for anything I publish on Medium: https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/717791753336532992)
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@fdevillamil The same way publishing only on Facebook or any media you don't control is a huge mistake. #indieweb. https://twitter.com/stephenhay/status/717605746842681344 (twitter.com/_/status/717790179025661958)
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GWG I heard more Wordpress talk
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aaronpk should Loqi expand quoted tweets?
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tantek how about alt text for photos?
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aaronpk IRC as a text-only medium is tough!
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tantek GWG, how strongly do you feel about the plugin name "Semantic Linkbacks" ?
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tantek aaronpk: any chance of hotlinking the Twitter images in the logs?
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GWG tantek, it predates me.
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tantek what's its history?
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gRegorLove GWG: Might want to update the link to webmention.org on https://wordpress.org/plugins/webmention/ to webmention.net
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GWG I named plugins Semantic Comments and Semantic Notifications because the had it as a dependency
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GWG But I think acegiak created the initial version, pfefferle forked it. But pfefferle maintains the version that ends up in Wordpress.org.
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aaronpk tantek: just added those three to my todo list
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tantek GWG do you have a graph / chart of all the indieweb-related plugins and their depedencies? it sounds kinda complicated
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GWG You can't change a slug in Wordpress, but you change the name. Maybe better off just calling it Linkbacks
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GWG tantek, I could make one, but I can't think of a presentation style for that.
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tantek GWG, I find that names of functionality (rather than plugin) tend to be more understandable
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GWG Semantic Linkbacks parses the source url of a Linkback to create an enhanced display.
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GWG It is protocol agnostic. And, if there was a project to enhance Linkbacks in Wordpress, would be a good start
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GWG The Webmentions plugin only implements the protocol.
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tantek GWG, I think there's a bit of a packaging challenge here too
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GWG So the presentation without Semantic Linkbacks is minimal
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tantek like per the conversation with Mike
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GWG tantek, how so?
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GWG Each feature is developed as a separate package.
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tantek as Mike's tweets made it clear, users care about what *user* functionality they are getting with a plugin, they don't really care about which does what protocol and why they are separate plugins for architectural reasons
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GWG The Indieweb plugin is meant to allow packages to be installed
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tantek GWG, what you're calling "feature" in this case is plumbing, not a user visible features typically
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voxpelli it's too bad that WordPress doesn't have a dependency mechanism that makes it possibly to automatically have all dependencies resolved without any custom code :/
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tantek e.g. compare "Indie Responses" (just a strawman) to "Semantic Linkbacks"
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GWG Agreed. I'm using feature in the context of how Wordpress develops new enhancement, by developing as a feature plugin
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tantek just because other devs are plumbing-centric doesn't mean we should be
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GWG voxpelli, agreed
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miklb voxpelli that's been a hotly contested debate in the WP core dev circle
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GWG milkb, tell me about it.
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GWG The question is if we want to bring the pieces together.
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GWG And there are a lot of players involved.
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tantek GWG would you consider a unified plugin that implemented receiving webmentions and displaying comments more nicely?
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tantek (perhaps even displaying likes and reposts nicely too)
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miklb IMVHO a unified plugin with only the basics enabled by default would be the way to go.
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singpolyma I've seen projects in the past have a "metaplugin" that installs a bundle of plugins
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singpolyma (I always install individual ones from control anyway, so I've not used one, but I've seen them)
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singpolyma s/from/for
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Loqi singpolyma meant to say: (I always install individual ones for control anyway, so I've not used one, but I've seen them)
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tantek singpolyma: yeah, metaplugins are not particularly user-friendly. people get annoyed that they don't do anything in and of themselves
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tantek GWG as for drawing a graph with depedenencies, I recommend http://asciiflow.com/ :)
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tantek (really like that tool)
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GWG tantek, since we tried that in the past... I'd want to talk to pfefferle about why it failed before.
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tantek what did you try in the past?
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GWG The Indieweb plugin was originally a merger of Webmentions and Semantic Linkbacks.
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gRegorLove Ooh, asciiflow is cool
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tantek right, it makes sense to have a *simple* IndieWeb plugin that gives people rel-me and IndieAuth support so they can play with that and see *something* working
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miklb finds this discussion relative to his Jekyll project
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voxpelli it wouldn't have to replace the existing modules, just be a way to attack the problem from two different angles
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voxpelli also thinks Jekyll, it will be magic
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miklb voxpelli I'm getting much closer. If there was a way to have a "theme" separate from jekyll, I'd already be dogfooding it on my own site to finish fleshing out
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GWG I think it may have been too much work to maintain two tracks.
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voxpelli miklb: you can likely achieve it through a git submodule of includes
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voxpelli miklb: the possibly tricky thing is to get both layouts + includes from the same module, which one would probably need, but maybe one could symlink stuff
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miklb voxpelli I've been looking at ways to do that, but haven't seen any good examples. I'm hoping some day this https://github.com/jekyll/jekyll/issues/4510 comes to fruition
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voxpelli miklb: eg my site uses an include for its post type: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/blob/master/_layouts/post.html
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voxpelli GWG: one could be a superset/subset of the other perhaps, especially if one could share some libraries between them through eg. submodules or something
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voxpelli git submodules I mean then
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voxpelli miklb: I know GitHub Pages should support git submodules in a public git repo at least
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todrobbins.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+32) "/* Regrets */ added my regret" (view diff)
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todrobbins.com created /User:Todrobbins (+6) "Created page with "Hello."" (view diff)
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todrobbins.com created /User:Todrobbins.com (+6) "Created page with "Hello."" (view diff)
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miklb voxpelli yes, there's some discussion in that thread on using submodules.
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todrobbins.com edited /events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club (+27) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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miklb voxpelli hmm. With some tweaking of config, can define custom paths for includes & layouts, might be a way to use that to have a "theme" in a submodule.
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[kevinmarks] Is "indie replies" a good name? How about "clear replies" or "readable replies" or if you want a semantic subtext "meaningful replies"
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Loqi [kevinmarks]: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 1 minute ago: did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459965493893
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tantek "clear replies" sounds like "clear channel" :P
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tantek "meaningful replies" may be overselling a bit ;)
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tantek did folks already discuss http://www.wired.com/2016/04/medium-now-way-power-entire-sites-including-ads/ ?
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Loqi Slide: 1 / of 1 .
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tantek hah oops
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@kevinmarks Reminder: #IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club TONIGHT! * Brighton * Portland * San Francisco RSVP: … http://tantek.com/2016/097/t4/indieweb-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/717800457729495041)
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tantek aaronpk: ^^^ wat?
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tantek lololol
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tantek kevinmarks - BTW as a test - that post of mine fit perfectly within retweetable length
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tantek just realizes that with a private twitter account, retweetable length may not matter any more
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tantek what is Medium for Publishers?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Medium for Publishers" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hf
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tantek Medium for Publishers is the Medium silo’s attempt at a [[WordPress.com]]-like hosted blog offering including a "a standalone URL" (unclear if whole domain). http://www.wired.com/2016/04/medium-now-way-power-entire-sites-including-ads/
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loqi.me created /Medium_for_Publishers (+264) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459972977871 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi Slide: 1 / of 1 .
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gRegorLove Heh. On Twitter advanced search I tabbed to "Written in (language)" drop-down select and typed "en" to get English. The "n" popped up the Compose New Tweet UI
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snarfed hey, speaking of semantic linkbacks, acegiak is https://github.com/acegiak/Semantic-Linkbacks now the official actively maintained repo?
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snarfed looks like it's been fully reconciled with https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks (...?)
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aaronpk Whoa that wired link
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snarfed acegiak: if so, congrats!...and consider removing the "Project actively developed on Github at pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks." changelog header :P
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kylewm Medium for Publishers is an odd name, I thought Medium was for publishers from the beginning :P
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kylewm tantek: kevinmarks: the Known plugin Kevin is using to repost is more suited for bookmarks. that's why it syndicates to twitter like a bookmark rather than a retweet
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tantek kylewm: makes sense
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snarfed any bored mf2 experts, feel free to weigh in on https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/458#issuecomment-206530035
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tantek "bored" (sigh)
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tantek notices no mention of u-uid ;)
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kylewm snarfed: i think you're suggesting the same thing i was in an earlier comment about u-representative-url
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snarfed kylewm: yes! i suck and didn't read, sorry.
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[kevinmarks] I reposted it on Known via woodwind, with twitter posse checked. Not sure who's miscounting characters in that pipeline
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gregorlove.com edited /read (+66) "/* gRegor Morrill */ want to read example" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: to me, the uid should point to the canonical twitter.com url, right?
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tantek kevinmarks it may be correct in char count
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tantek since as a repost, it should prioritize putting the URL of the original in there
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tantek and thus it had to truncate the URL at the end of my post, which is fine
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tantek kylewm: yes u-uid is how we do canonical
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kylewm so I don't think that helps
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tantek it help with using u-url on all the URL (copies) of the post
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aaronpk i was thinking about this the other day
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aaronpk ultimately i'm going to have to whitelist bridgy specifically at some point
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gRegorLove tantek: ^ Added a "Want to read" example for your consideration / if you want to come up with an emoji for it.
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tantek kylewm in your "concrete problem" steps, did you mean to be explicit about 2. Bob replies (and POSSEs his reply to twitter)?
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aaronpk since essentially it's providing a "fake" representation of twitter.com and facebook.com URLs, and I'm choosing to trust bridgy over the canonical URLs for those
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tantek otherwise why is "Carl replies to Bob on Twitter "?
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aaronpk but i think that's okay, because I signed up with bridgy explicitly
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snarfed aaronpk: "trust?"
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aaronpk yes
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aaronpk i believe that it is not going to misbehave
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tantek well as a "proxy"
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tantek like you would "trust" an HTTP proxy
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snarfed oh for accepting u-url on a different domain?
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snarfed ok
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aaronpk as a counterexample, if someone else made a service like bridgy, I might want to not trust it to provide proxy URLs for tweets
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tantek just trying to fully understand how kylewm's scenario happens
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tantek (or has happened?)
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kylewm tantek: Carl could post a tweet with a link to Bob's post, and it would be backfed as a mention, without Bob having to have possed originally
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kylewm (I think)
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snarfed aaronpk: doesn't look like you even "trust" bridgy right now, at least for replies. :P maybe lost in the server migration? eg https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/05/13/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] "German™! Because even words that don't exist have 2 meanings." https://yourdailygerman.com/2013/10/23/german-prefix-ver-meaning/ This is the best site for learning German I swear....
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tantek kylewm: as a mention but not as a comment
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aaronpk snarfed: what do you mean?
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snarfed aaronpk: oh got it, "via." nm!
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tantek kylewm: or "reply" for that matter
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kylewm are mentions not supposed to be marked up as a p-comment?
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tantek plain mentions are usually not of very high quality so UIs have tended to de-emphasize them
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tantek compared to likes, replies etc.
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kylewm so, are you saying that if Alice POSSEd to Twitter and Bob POSSEd to Twitter, then Bridgy would backfeed Carl's reply all the way back to Alice without having to rely on Salmentions, so this is not a use case we need to worry about?
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tantek each of which has their own markup, whether u-like or p-comment etc.
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tantek I'd ask ben_thatmustbeme how he has approached / solved this problem since I think he does the most with showing threaded replies (including backfeed from Bridgy)
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tantek I mean, he did solve it, somehow, without needing additional markup from Bridgy
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ben_thatmustbeme perks up his ears
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tantek so let's find out how, instead of making up new things we may not need
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ben_thatmustbeme what?
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kylewm I believe ben solved it in the opposite direction, but his solution may still be informative
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ben_thatmustbeme trying to figure out whats going on
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tantek kylewm: this is why I'm looking for more precision in your example "concrete problem"
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tantek so we can tell how different the scenario you're talking about is from what ben_thatmustbeme already supports
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tantek or if they're the same
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: when you're crawling a reply chain to build a recursive reply context, and you encounter a url that doesn't have microformats like twitter.com, how do you get the mf2 representation of it?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm not sure i support all the things tantek thinks i do. this has happened before.
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tantek anyway, in general this conversation will make the most sense with more Salmention implementing sites/people involved to point out the actual problems (if any) that they've run into due to salmentions supposedly from silo backfeeds
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, i believe i use the twitter shim for that. been a long time since i have looked at that code
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim
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kylewm snarfed: OK I vote to close the issue now :)
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snarfed kylewm: wait why, because ben_thatmustbeme hard-codes twitter.com and uses twitter-shim? that doesn't seem like a great answer :/
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ben_thatmustbeme whats the issue exactly?
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snarfed (esp since there aren't shims for all five bridgy silos, it's PHP only, etc)
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kylewm snarfed: no bc of what tantek said
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ben_thatmustbeme n/m found it
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/458#issuecomment-206530035
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kylewm I can't think of a real example where this would cause loss of reply fidelity
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snarfed ah. so the idea is that salmention consumers always consume the embedded mf2 on the containing page, so they don't need to also fetch the original u-url?
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snarfed agreed if so, that sgtm
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kylewm nooo
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kylewm on that point, I agree with voxpelli that fetching the original and parsing the mf2 from there is a better solution
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kylewm more expensive in terms of HTTP requests, but more trustworthy results
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snarfed ok
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kylewm snarfed: I think the answer to this question is yes: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459974297796
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snarfed why close then? because we don't yet have real salmention users with this problem in practice yet?
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Loqi [kylewm] so, are you saying that if Alice POSSEd to Twitter and Bob POSSEd to Twitter, then Bridgy would backfeed Carl's reply all the way back to Alice without having to rely on Salmentions, so this is not a use case we need to worry about?...
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snarfed oh i see.
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snarfed for the narrow case of twitter reply-to-reply when both people are signed up for bridgy, yes
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snarfed but there are way more, right?
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snarfed non-bridgy users, liking a reply, replying to an rsvp, etc. plus other silos with limited support
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[kevinmarks] Have a look at acegiak's salmentions implementation too
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kylewm OK, so refining the example, Alice does *not* POSSE to Twitter, but Bob does, and Carl still replies only on Twitter
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kylewm that would cause a problem
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kylewm but I don't *think* we have anybody who regularly POSSEs replies when the original was not POSSEd
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kylewm except possibly Kevin
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snarfed singpolyma does
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders what would happen if the u-url of the reply-to-reply was set to a bridgy URL. Depending on the consumer code, if it fetches the reply from that url, it will find the real u-url of the twitter post
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snarfed others too, finding
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: but we want to use u-url appropriately for the silo copy
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kylewm OK snarfed, I will update my theoretical "concrete example" with that
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ben_thatmustbeme you would have that on the "source" of the reply
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snarfed (ben_thatmustbeme also posses replies to non-tweets: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/362 )
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: I think that is the solution voxpelli was playing with in the OP; where bridgy would do some user agent sniffing to decide whether to forward you on to the silo url or not
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ben_thatmustbeme Alice posts on her site, POSSE's to twitter, Bob on twitter, reply's (bridgy hosts reply back to alice at /1) carl reply's to bob's reply. bridgy hosts it at /2 and updates /1 to list ONLY THE URL as the reply
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: ah, u-url in the receiver's display. seems uncomfortable, but sure
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snarfed ooh man user agent sniffing this may be where i bow out
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kylewm I took it as a straw man :P
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snarfed heh
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snarfed maybe something like a meta refresh?
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ben_thatmustbeme now something interesting happens. anyone wanting to fetch multi-level reply context HAS to fetch /1 and /2 to get the full content
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snarfed still icky
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[kevinmarks] The challenge with posse of a reply that wasn't POSSEd is that known doesn't posse the in reply to url unless I add it explicitly
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[kevinmarks] So if I am not sure if your post was possed , I risk send a tweet with no reference to the source
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ben_thatmustbeme its icky, yes, but the thing is, we already have a special case for bridgy. we are trusting bridgy to us the MF2 of an external site, which you normally shouldn't do. So we are already assuming the URL we fetched the MF2 from is not the canonical URL
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ben_thatmustbeme so implementations should already be rechecking the u-url of the post when they get to it
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ben_thatmustbeme the nice thing is that its the same processing model for the reply-to-reply processing
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kylewm KevinMarks: Known's Twitter plugin let's you do that? That's a bug imho
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kylewm if it let's you send a reply as a tweet without an in-reply-to tweet
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snarfed so ben_thatmustbeme just to confirm, your proposal is that when sites render wms they've received, they should displa* the wm source's u-url, but they should put the actual original source url in their rendered wm's u-url?
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snarfed ie for a backfed @-reply, they'd show the twitter.com url visibly, but they'd set its u-url internally to brid-gy.appspot.com/... ?
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aaronpk if that was the case then i'd have to special-case bridgy anyway still, since i want people to go to twitter.com when they click the permalink of a reply
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snarfed aaronpk: seems like that's still doable. you just don't put u-url on that permalink. you instead put it on a separate link to the original source, eg your 'via' link
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aaronpk doable, but is still special-casing it
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ben_thatmustbeme snafed, looking at the example kylewm gave on that post, no. I was looking at a different case
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ben_thatmustbeme i was thinking of the case of bridgy actually sending the salmention
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snarfed aaronpk: i don't think so, right? if anything, it's just different logic for when u-url is the same as source url (or missing) vs when they're different
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aaronpk i suppose so
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veganstraightedge.com created /events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (+3733) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> [https://calumryan.com/note.php?noteId=213 <img style="width:100%;height:18em;object-fit:cover;object-position:50% 50%" class="u-featured" src="https..."" (view diff)
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: ok. i doubt we'd add salmention-specific logic to bridgy, beyond just twitter @-reply chains, but maybe i'm missing something
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miklb what is salmention?
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Loqi Salmentions are a protocol extension to Webmention to propagate comments and other interactions upstream by sending a webmention from a response to the original post when the response itself receives a response (comment, like, etc.) https://indiewebcamp.com/salmention
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kylewm goes looking for a real world example
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, the use case i would want is, I post on my site (and posse to twitter), somone on twitter replies. someone else on twitter replies to that tweet. I should get a salmention to pull an update from the first reply
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: bridgy already does that for you now, no salmentions needed. discussed a bit earlier. :P we're now looking for an example that bridgy doesn't already do.
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kylewm cannot navigate singpolyma's site, gives up
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ben_thatmustbeme wait, What? /me reads back
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veganstraightedge.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+54) "Add 2016-04-27 to HWC" (view diff)
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[shaners] what is eme?
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[shaners] What is EME?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "EME" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hg
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "eme" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Hh
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kylewm !tell singpolyma do you know that "Microblog" and "Full Activitystream" links at the top right of your site take me to a SubToMe page?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[shaners] EME is a W3C proposal to add DRM to the HTML standard. http://w3c.github.io/encrypted-media
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loqi.me created /EME (+118) "prompted by [shaners] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459976786696 and dfn added by [shaners]" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi [David Dorwin] Encrypted Media Extensions
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[shaners] eme is /EME
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loqi.me created /eme (+16) "prompted by [shaners] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459976786671 and dfn added by [shaners]" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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ben_thatmustbeme cannot find it and how that isn't just a salmention
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/217
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snarfed it's a pre-salmention, bridgy-twitter-specific feature, but it implements the use case you gave
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tantek shaners, was there an indieweb related reference to EME somewhere? curious what prompted that (in this context)
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[shaners] No. I’m watching this recent session at MIT Media Lab about DRM.
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[shaners] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3kfXtXRgk0
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[shaners] They kept mentioning EME and I had to look it up. So, I did and added it.
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ben_thatmustbeme If i understand the correctly though, does that lose threading snarfed?
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ben_thatmustbeme eh, i can play around with it
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: yeah it does lose threading
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kylewm it makes reply-to-reply look like a reply to the original
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, i see
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ben_thatmustbeme :/ but i guess almost no one does reply threading yet
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tantek shaners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encrypted_Media_Extensions ?
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snarfed well that's not quite fair
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snarfed bridgy includes in-reply-tos to all of a tweet's ancestors, not just its direct parent, but that still describes the full tree structure
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snarfed receivers *could* reproduce the full nesting with that...but in practice few or none actually do
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tantek shaners, in particular, if there's nothing indieweb-specific/related, maybe having it Wikipedia is good enough?
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tantek s/having it/having it on
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Loqi tantek meant to say: shaners, in particular, if there's nothing indieweb-specific/related, maybe having it on Wikipedia is good enough?
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[shaners] You want that I should delete the indiewebcamp wiki page?
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snarfed tantek++ for not putting everything on the wiki just because :P
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed: where that would get really messy is likes of reply's to reply's
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Loqi tantek has 283 karma
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: the salmention/wm-sending part would get messy?
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snarfed maybe! bridgy doesn't send likes of replies though, so we've avoided it :P
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kylewm snarfed: good point, re: full tree structure
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, okay
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tantek shaners, does that make sense to you as having at least a minimal indieweb-related bar for putting things on the wiki?
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[shaners] Of course.
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tantek probably worth capturing as a suggestion on /wikify
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gRegorLove snarfed++ for that whitespace fix in granary. My atom feed looks great now.
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Loqi snarfed has 211 karma
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+287) "/* New pages */ indieweb-related is a reasonable bar to suggest" (view diff)
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[shaners] I can’t figure out how to delete a page on the wiki. Am I completely missing something? Do I just delete the content of the page?
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aaronpk is deleting limited to admins?
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tantek.com deleted /EME "not specifically indieweb-related (fortunately?), and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encrypted_Media_Extensions is a good enough general reference"
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tantek.com deleted /eme "not specifically indieweb-related (fortunately?), and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encrypted_Media_Extensions is a good enough general reference"
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[shaners] thx
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tantek aaronpk: likely
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[shaners] tantek: https://github.com/tantek/cassis/issues/27 Good?
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tantek lol. yes that works :)
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tantek funny how it quotes me as "tantek BOT"
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, kylewm, et al. are there any other indieweb things using simplified version of mf2's json format
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tantek what is jf2?
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ben_thatmustbeme in other words, anyone else with implmentation experience to feed in to JF2?
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Loqi jf2 is a working prototype of a simpler JSON serialization of microformats2 https://indiewebcamp.com/jf2
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: nope, i use AS for that
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: my library mf2util returns an simplified version of the mf2 representation of a page
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kylewm but it serves a pretty different purpose, and has domain-knowledge of the different properties, e.g. properties are always multi-valued or always single-valued
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aaronpk oh dammit. startssl.com updated their site but now it's broken in chrome
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tantek I'm sure they tested it in at least one browser ;)
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aaronpk i can't even log in in safari
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aaronpk i bet it only works on IE on windows
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aaronpk went down a deep rabbit hole
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aaronpk success in firefox \o/
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tantek :D
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@calum_ryan Small website update tonight in absence of not making it to Homebrew Website Club: now posting geolocation #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/717829699465043968)
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aaronpk whee almost have my own ngrok.com running
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aaronpk well that wasn't so bad
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aaronpk muahaha
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snarfed wow
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aaronpk with a real wildcard ssl cert too
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tantek what did I miss?
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aaronpk remember how i sometimes share pk.ngrok.io URLs in here?
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aaronpk it's a way to give a public URL to the copy of my website running on my laptop
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aaronpk well now I am self-hosting that functionality :)
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cleverdevil that's slick.
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bear self hosting ngrok is both a great tool and some serious pain
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aaronpk pain? uhoh what did I get myself into?
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cleverdevil how hard is it to deploy?
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tantek whoa
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bear not hard at all given it's a go binary (or was)
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aaronpk it was actually pretty easy all told
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gRegorLove What is ngrok?
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Loqi Ngrok is a utility for making local servers available on a public address https://ngrok.com/ https://indiewebcamp.com/ngrok
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aaronpk https://www.svenbit.com/2014/09/run-ngrok-on-your-own-server/
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bear the pain is just getting nginx and ssl setup and then teaching devs about it
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aaronpk i couldn't figure out how to make it work behind nginx, so it's listening on port 80 and 443 directly
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cleverdevil nods
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bear (it could be all of the pain I felt was from the devs using it nodejs)
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cleverdevil it'd be nice if there was an ansible playbook to set it up or something
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aaronpk it didn't seem to map the tunnels right since it thought it was listening on port 6080 but really nginx was proxying to it
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[kevinmarks] Ben, unmung.com will turn mf2 to jf2, and mention-tech returns it
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aaronpk it really wasn't that bad. plus i don't want to have to learn ansible to run this :P
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bear ya, you have to treat it like old school java web apps - proxy forward header everything
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cleverdevil ansible is totally worth learning, though :)
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cleverdevil I may be biased because it works with my cloud :P
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bear https://github.com/protobox/ansible-ngrok
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aaronpk bear: do you remember how to make it so that nginx forwards the port number to the backend?
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cleverdevil tada!
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cleverdevil its a little terrifying, of course, to install a binary from some stranger and proxy my traffic through it "securely" :)
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aaronpk i had to compile it from the go source
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cleverdevil that helps.
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aaronpk not that i know any go
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cleverdevil heh
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cleverdevil I think I'll stick to SSH port forwarding for now.
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cleverdevil still, pretty cool.
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aaronpk heh ssh port forwarding is more work :P
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cleverdevil oh, you bet.
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cleverdevil but, I can write a six line shell script to automate it :)
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@kevinmarks @kissane come build open protocols at http://indiewebcamp.com - we'd love to hear your use cases (twitter.com/_/status/717840698989355009)
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aaronpk i am kind of curious if i could use an SSH tunnel to reverse proxy port 80 and 443 to my local 80 and 443 and get SSL set up on it and everything
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bear basiclalyes
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bear bah
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cleverdevil aaronpk: I am sure you could.
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cleverdevil you'd have to have a remote endpoint that did most of the work
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cleverdevil but, locally, it'd just be a little script that does the SSH-fu to make it go.
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aaronpk oh this isn't too bad either
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/cdb9bb83f380484c5f600bbba62f5ea9
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aaronpk that's my server's nginx.conf file, and then i connect via ssh to set up the tunnel
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aaronpk well since it's going to be just me using this for the foreseeable future, might as well stick with the SSH tunnel version :shrug:
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cleverdevil nice.
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cleverdevil one liner, basically!
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bear I rarely use -R had to go look it up
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aaronpk and *.tunnlr.xyz is forwarded to my laptop \o/
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bear (your nginx forwarding of port # question above) -- it can't, you have to match them up with different server blocks (or pass the port # as a special header)
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bear (tho you might be able to do it now with lua scripting in nginx)
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@WPSmartStart Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/717842737026961409)
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aaronpk bear: okay yeah that's the issue i ran into. apparently ngrok requires the port matches too, and I couldn't figure out how to override it
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bear yea, ngrok uses the port number to identify the session (from what I remember)
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aaronpk no it's just the public port number so it shouldn't need that to match
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bear hmm, then I would just rewrite the nginx config and have it reload
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bear so it matches ngrok
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aaronpk not sure what you mean. basically I had nginx listening on 80 with ngrok as the proxy_pass server, and when I went to http://example.tunnlr.xyz/ it would successfully hit ngrok but said the tunnel was not found. but if I went to http://example.tunnlr.xyz:6080/ (where ngrok was actually listening on) then it found the tunnel
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tantek what is ngrok?
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Loqi Ngrok is a utility for making local servers available on a public address https://ngrok.com/ https://indiewebcamp.com/ngrok
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aaronpk muahaha now that ssh command is in a launchctl job so it'll always stay running http://blog.zenspider.com/blog/2011/11/ssh-tunneling-via-osx-s-launchctl.html
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gRegorLove I know Twitter blocking is pretty weak, but I just found a bug where I can view a tweet if I have the permalink
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aaronpk i don't think that's a bug
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tantek wonders how long until aaronparecki.com is just a cache of what's on aaronpk's laptop, and he uses bluetooth to post from all his mobile devices to his laptop without having to touch the internet directly
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Loqi I don't know
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tantek gRegorLove: Twitter has an odd meaning of "block"
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@ForceWordPress Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/717849228236759040)
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@circa1977 RT @kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717849181755465732)
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@adactio RT @kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717848395067449344)
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@kronda RT @kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717847767746392064)
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@rogreisreading ✌ @Reading "IndieWebCamp" https://www.reading.am/p/4eSa/http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/717846929493852160)
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@kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717846437099401216)
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tantek whoa
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tantek RTs before the original?
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tantek what's going on there?
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aaronpk huh. must have come from the regular search api instead of streaming
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[kevinmarks] Search returns most recent first?
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aaronpk well that was a fun little rabbit hole. now back to what i was actually trying to do.
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cleverdevil \o/
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@jgarber RT @kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717856285589417984)
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@indiewebcamp RT @kissane Reminder that http://indiewebcamp.com/ exists and is awesome (twitter.com/_/status/717855641096704000)
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[kevinmarks] kissane++
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Loqi kissane has 1 karma
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tantek.com edited /principles (+57) "link to positives in dfn para rather than negs, put code of conduct at top as well for additional discoverabilty" (view diff)