#indiewebcamp 2016-04-25

2016-04-25 UTC
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kylewm hehe, going to need to add some code before i can pass that one
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aaronpk same
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aaronpk i think i'm going to build it in to Telegraph
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aaronpk haven't quite figured it out yet, but something like telling Telegraph to re-send webmentions that it had previously sent from a specific source URL
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[kevinmarks] That is tricky, as you have to remember state
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aaronpk indeed
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aaronpk well really you have to remember the list of targets you previously sent to
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kylewm should resend to all targets or only targets that succeeded?
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aaronpk Good point, only ones that succeeded, or at least didn't reject it outright
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kylewm aaronpk: oh hey the u-url on /update/1 and /update/2 points to /test/1 and /test/2 respectively
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kylewm as well as the link in the header
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aaronpk bah
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aaronpk fixed thank
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aaronpk s
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aaronpk how come bridgy didn't find any webmention targets for my latest post? https://brid.gy/twitter/aaronpk
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aaronpk and all those log links are 404
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aaronpk oh that's cause bridgy hasn't polled my home page yet right?
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aaronpk ah yeah "Web site crawled 1 hour, 35 minutes ago"
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kylewm nah, it should check it for updates when you post
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aaronpk it found a bunch of favs and replies to my latest tweet, but didn't find webmention targets because it hadn't gone to fetch my home page yet
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aaronpk my tweets usualyl don't have links to the original post so i'm relying on bridgy finding my canonical URL by polling my site
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aaronpk i clicked "crawl now" and it looks like it's finding them now
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kylewm aside: i cannot believe how obtuse the Google cloud console crap has become
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kylewm the text "App Engine" nowhere to be found
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[kevinmarks] It's in the top left corner menu
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[kevinmarks] And yes, it is annoying
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[kevinmarks] Also the new js one is so much slower
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kylewm i think there are 4 hamburger menus on this screen
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kylewm back to aaronpk's question: it's a bug it's a bug it's a bug bug bug bug
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aaronpk orly?
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kylewm yep, filing
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aaronpk kylewm++ thanks
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Loqi kylewm has 321 karma
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kylewm shore, my comments above about the "right way" to fix it make me nervous
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kylewm hopefully there will still be an easy way
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aaronpk it seems reasonable that if it finds a new tweet from me that it should go fetch my home page too
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kylewm yeah defintely, it's coded that way, just short-circuiting because of a bug
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk i'm aaalmost done with a test for deletes
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aaronpk bam right on target
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aaronpk https://webmention.rocks/delete/1
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Delete Test #1
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aaronpk my goal was 7:05pm
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kylewm aaronpk: delete test looks good except it doesn't show my name/picture after deleting
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aaronpk cool!
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aaronpk hm yeah i guess i shouldn't delete the data
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aaronpk kinda a weird case for this
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk good evening
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GWG Good evening
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tantek checks logs
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sknebel good morning!
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kylewm !tell bear hey, would you be open to moving the lxml dependency to 'extras_require' in ronkyuu? i want to use it in bridgy, but it uses the lxml that's provided by appengine, and things get weird if we try to install our own :P
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm simpler times: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/43#issuecomment-33146944
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snarfed oh man no joke
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gRegorLove Should this parse a"value" of "Tantek Çelik" for the author h-card? http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2015%2F152%2Ft2%2Fproud-withknown-indieweb-user-empathy&callback=&dateformat=auto
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gRegorLove php-mf2 does, but the microformats/tests doesn't. Wasn't sure if it's some edge case I'm not familiar with.
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tantek hmm
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tantek gRegorLove: hmm - for a p_* yes
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KevinMarks hm, unmung gets "Tantek \u00c7elik"
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2015%2F152%2Ft2%2Fproud-withknown-indieweb-user-empathy&html=&pretty=on
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@Moe RT @jkantel #Facebook zensiert – darum sollte man die #InstantArticles meiden http://blog.schockwellenreiter.de/2016/04/2016042502.html #Zensur #SocialMedia #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/724559368579088384)
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@jkantel #Facebook zensiert – darum sollte man die #InstantArticles meiden http://blog.schockwellenreiter.de/2016/04/2016042502.html #Zensur #SocialMedia #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/724558415859703809)
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Loqi [indieweb] "I think I just upgraded @withknown but the about page not showing correct version number? https://withknown.com/opensource/ #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/i-think-i-just-upgraded-withknown-but-the-about-page
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Loqi [indieweb] "I think I just upgraded @withknown but the about page not showing correct version number? https://withknown.com/opensource/ #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/i-think-i-just-upgraded-withknown-but-the-about-page-not-showing-correct-version-number-opensource-indieweb-1
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Loqi [indieweb] "Wishing I could "Pin" a post on my #Known #indieweb" by Ben Borges http://1-m.cc/2016/wishing-i-could-pin-a-post-on-my-known-indieweb
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@benborges_ Wishing I could "Pin" a post on my #Known #indieweb (https://1-m.cc/s/7b11) (twitter.com/_/status/724600432811741185)
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output.jsbin.com qicowafebe created /User:Output.jsbin.com_qicowafebe (+161) "+anonymAuth" (view diff)
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dym.cx edited /User:Dym.cx (+81) "+Template; +anonymAuth" (view diff)
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kylewm output.jsbin!?
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dym_cx its a "nice" anonym-ish vecort
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dym_cx r
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks indiewebcamp logo http://svgur.com/s/4f #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/724608511754285056)
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@RikMende RT @indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-22.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/723622414878265344/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/724608042155806720)
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks Great article on the bug mistake that is js;dr web design by @fox https://medium.com/@fox/the-web-isn-t-uniform-fd67eb631501#.cmcjmejn8 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/724607975533477888)
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kylewm dym_cx: I just realized all your "Meanwhile" links go to non-existent accounts https://dym.cx/
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kylewm that's kind of funny
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dym_cx i purge social accounts every year or so
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dym_cx "spring cleaning"
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kylewm heh
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dym_cx email still works though, and im rethinking what to put on the site
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petermolnar dym_cx your site is lvl99 version of http://tantek.com/2016/048/b1/going-silo-private-prefer-indieweb
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Going Silo-Private to Prefer the IndieWeb, Leave Silo Publics, and Pioneer Privacy on the Independent Web
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dym_cx and blocking google-bot from searching quantum-leaps me back into 1998
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dym_cx and blocking google-bot from searching quantum-leaps me back into 1998
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dym_cx why dbl
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dym_cx web 1.me here i come
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dym_cx gonna need a flash-intro with a java-applet for a "skip" button
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petermolnar that hurt :D
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kylewm getting awful lonely over here on https://webmention.rocks/update/2 and https://webmention.rocks/delete/1
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Update Test #2
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Delete Test #1
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GWG kylewm, I am still writing update and delete code.
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GWG And WordPress by default doesn't issue a 410 only a 404
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[kevinmarks] I could get mention tech to do them up its still mostly manual - these ones require cms support really
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[kevinmarks] Especially delete
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kylewm !tell aaronpk monocle really pounds my server whenever i post an update. I get 15-25 requests for / and each post, from several different iP addresses (is someone in germany running monocle too?)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk yeah that shouldn't be happening lol
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Loqi aaronpk: kylewm left you a message 1 minute ago: monocle really pounds my server whenever i post an update. I get 15-25 requests for / and each post, from several different iP addresses (is someone in germany running monocle too?) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461599997870
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aaronpk Each post is being fetched that many times?
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kylewm yeah
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kylewm it's not hurting anything, just thought i'd let you know :)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek kylewm++ congrats on passing webmentionrocks update 2 and delete 1! Is that with the newly envigorated Redwind?
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Loqi kylewm has 322 karma
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kylewm tantek: yup
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tantek odd about the delete/1 showing no photo found, no name, comment text not found
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tantek is that due to your implementation or the test?
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tantek Either way, it's not really an ideal way of showing "success" IMO
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kylewm the test I think, aaronpk said it probably shouldn't do that yesterday
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kylewm and thank you by the way :)
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tantek If a receiver is going to still show *something* for a deleted response, at a minimum it should keep showing the author photo and name, and maybe "comment deleted by author YYYY-MM-DD"
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tantek does that mean aaronpk is working on fixing the delete test?
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tantek And I suppose the race is now on to see who can get the second fully supported/automated passing result on update 2 and delete 1 :D
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[kevinmarks] Aaron is probably in a conference room being inducted
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tantek has to write *a bunch* of code to make that work
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tantek is not going to bother trying to "manually" pass them, since there's no need to exercise them that way this time (the manual testing the tests helped find bugs for update 1)
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[kevinmarks] Yes, to pass these needs the site to have a history of removed entries
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[kevinmarks] Interesting distinction between sender and receiver tombstones there
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[kevinmarks] CDURU vs CTHULU
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aaronpk That's a good question of what a receiver should do with a deleted comment, but also what the test site should do too
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tantek what is deleted?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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tantek what are deleteds?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "deleteds" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jg
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tantek Deleteds are the set of responses to a post that have been [[deleted]], and how they are displayed on the original post.
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loqi.me created /Deleteds (+147) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461601421211 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek aaronpk: ^^^ there's a page for starting document why, how to, indieweb examples, brainstorming for how / what a receiver should do with a deleted comment, including test receivers.
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KevinMarks hm, re http://webmention.net/draft/#implementation
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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KevinMarks "is suitable for a person to use as his/her primary implementation on a website" - how do you measure suitability? actual usage?
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tantek seems reasonable. if someone is actually using it for their primary personal website, that's a decent indication of suitability.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me!" by Chris Aldrich http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/
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GWG Have I mentioned I like Chris Aldrich's enthusiasm?
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@misuba @cw can you expand on what that syndication would look like? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/724649981596966912)
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tantek ^^^ now there's the spirit, asking productive questions!
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bear oh wow, update test #2 is going to be *fun* (as in I will have to add more nifty stuff to my generation code!)
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Loqi bear: kylewm left you a message 12 hours, 40 minutes ago: hey, would you be open to moving the lxml dependency to 'extras_require' in ronkyuu? i want to use it in bridgy, but it uses the lxml that's provided by appengine, and things get weird if we try to install our own :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-24/line/1461560554012
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gRegorLove Good morning, indiewebcamp
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GWG Hi, gRegorLove
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@ChrisAldrich Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/ https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/724653110199619584/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/724653110199619584)
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tantek nice
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tantek good morning GWG, gRegorLove
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bear !tell kylewm great idea - I filed issue https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu/issues/17 to track that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove So I've mostly got the microformats/tests suite hooked into php-mf2. Something I came across last night in the test suite is https://github.com/microformats/tests#date-format-for-testing-purposes
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tantek heh, date formats :)
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gRegorLove "To allow us to compare dates please provide a way for your parser to output dates/times with the follwing rules: "Date and time are separated by a spaces ie 2015-04-29 15:34 ..."
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gRegorLove I was wondering if that's something the parsers should actually be doing
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tantek why wondering?
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gRegorLove The microformats spec seems to indicate the T should be there, no space.
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tantek hmm - certainly not intentionally.
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tantek that is, space is preferred
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tantek similarly, "Date and time keeps the authored level of specificity" is very important
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gRegorLove http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern##If+by+parsing+the+%22value%22+element(s)
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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tantek right, that's only at parse time for assembling ("assembles") *separate* date and time values into a single datetime value for internal representation. that has nothing to do with output
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bear I feel very strongly that all dates that are not specifically to be consumed by humans should follow RFC 3339
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gRegorLove I'm not sure what that means, tantek
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tantek bear, and as a human developer who consumes date times by reading data structures for debugging, I think RFC3339 is a mistake
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tantek gRegorLove: parsing does two things, processing input, and produces output in some canonical representation
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tantek that line you quoted is about the former
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bear how can you say it's a mistake when it's written to remove all ambiguity from the text representation of a date and time
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gRegorLove I'm missing where it instructs to do some more processing of that datetime value then
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tantek bear, two major flaws. 1 - the T instead of " " separator is worse for readability. and 2. the insistence of seconds precision introduces artificial precision which is a qualitative source of error.
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tantek gRegorLove: value-class-pattern only provides details for part of how you process input, it has no bearing on producing output
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tantek so you're missing something that's not there
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gRegorLove ??
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gRegorLove http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##parsing+a+dt-+property first step is value-class pattern and return that value
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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bear your point 1 misses the point of using T for parsing - it makes the seperator something that cannot be confused with another seperator
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gRegorLove Bad link. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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tantek that's better gRegorLove, that should specify replacing any T separator with space before returning - good catch
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bear the use of " " is allowed as the "T" requirement is a SHOULD and not a MUST
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tantek allowed is not good enough, better human readability should be encouraged
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bear and it is - that is the whole point of them enhancing 8601
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tantek well, subsetting
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tantek also personal pet peeve, I think RFC3339 was wrong to omit ordinal dates
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bear the limit to seconds being an integer value is definitely an area where the spec is bad but it still allows for it - you just have to read the optional section with a wink/nod
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tantek bear same for minutes
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bear again, this is a spec to enhance the machine parsing of date/times
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gRegorLove I think the value-class-pattern page might need updating, too. That same link indicates "00" seconds should be implied, which contradicts the authored specificity http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern##If+by+parsing+the+%22value%22+element(s)
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Loqi Value Class Pattern
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tantek enhance with what use-case? the problem is it pursues some notion of parsing purity at the sacrifice of actual real world data quality
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bear I think it's a great place to showcase the reason for MF2 usage: "hey, here is this known machine format and this is how you make it grok'able using MF2"
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tantek gRegorLove: good catch, yes, likely
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tantek gRegorLove: can you add those issues to their issues pages? (link at top: "Issue Page")
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gRegorLove I'm still unclear on this internal representation bit. Why add the "T" to just remove it later?
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gRegorLove Sure
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tantek I think that "add the T" part was back when I still believe in RFC3339 before I got frustrated with its flaws (from running into enough real world problems)
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tantek would be reasonable to propose using space as the concatenation separator instead of T
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gRegorLove Is it worth wikifying RFC3339?
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bear we should always strive to use specs as they exist and then document the flaws in the wiki
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bear saying they are a mistake and should be ignored just sets us up for others to point at our specs and say the same thing
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tantek bear, yes that's a better approach
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tantek in IRC it's easier to speak in shorthand :)
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bear (sorry if this is coming across as me picking on you, it just happened to be a moment in time when I thought I could make that point)
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bear tantek++ for always striving to make sure our process is purposeful
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Loqi tantek has 287 karma
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tantek bear++ it's a very good point to make!!
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Loqi bear has 123 karma
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tantek gRegorLove: while you're looking at mf2 issues - could you contribute your opinion if you have one to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_name_when_alt.3D.22.22 ?
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Loqi microformats2-parsing-issues
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bear !tell aaronpk I have a concern with the webmention.rocks delete test requireing 410 to show removal - that (at first glance) seems to prevent any static site from being able to pass the test
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek bear, pretty sure the 410 discussion is on the wiki
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bear oh? cool - I haven't caught up with the discussion from earlier
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tantek specifically around 1. why 404 is insufficient (actually bad to use) for deleted, and 2. a possible (proposed?) workaround to returning a status code in meta element
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bear !tell aaronpk hmm, ok, tantek says that was discussed, belay my thought until I've had a chance to catch up
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk waves
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Loqi aaronpk: bear left you a message 2 minutes ago: I have a concern with the webmention.rocks delete test requireing 410 to show removal - that (at first glance) seems to prevent any static site from being able to pass the test http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461607675843
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aaronpk is not familiar with RFC3339, only ISO8601
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aaronpk yes there's a discussion on the wiki about equivalents for http 410
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aaronpk and I definitely forgot to add that to the webmention.rocks test. also pretty sure it's missing from the spec.
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tantek did anyone either ever implement it or publish it?
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tantek aaronpk - worth tracking as an issue on webmention spec? How does a static site implement (publish) a deleted response and send a webmention for it?
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aaronpk i think so yeah
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tantek including the proposal, to include in the spec, and maybe cc'ing some static site folks here that would likely want this to work, e.g. voxpelli
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bear i'll be implementing it tonight for my site to be honest
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aaronpk bear: instead of http 410?
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tantek because if we get relatively quick consensus, then it makes sense to add it to the spec, and adding it as a supported way for the deleted test to be passed by webmention.rocks
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tantek bear++ nice!!!
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Loqi bear has 124 karma
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bear i'll be implementing 410 in some form tonight
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dym_cx 410++
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GWG I have to figure out what to do about 410 as well
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bear because I completely forgot about having a placeholder with a meta 410 code
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bear and my preference would be to have a 410 mini doc as that honours the spirit of the WorldWideWeb IMO
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tantek bear, as someone quite familiar with HTTP etc. I would strongly appreciate your review/critique of that technique of using a new meta to communicate a 410
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tantek (since I brainstormed / proposed it in the first place)
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bear that is what i'm doing now instead of my $dayjob - so i'll defer that until later
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@cstanhope RT @ChrisAldrich Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/ https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/status/724653110199619584/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/724661132909121537)
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tantek bear - totally fine - just let me know if you see any redflags
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bear (but yes, these nuances are important and I feel that the simpler (just 404 it) has lead to a lot of bad design)
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voxpelli just thinking out aloud: an alternative to publishing a status as a meta could maybe be to publish a tombstone as a 200?
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tantek (exactly)
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tantek voxpelli: that adds a bunch more complexity
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tantek rather than just "here's a static site workaround for returning a custom HTTP STATUS" - which frankly static sites need anyway in general
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bear I also feel its important to have the final status code be 410 in the browser and not 200 + human readable status that says why it was deleted
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tantek if the meta http status works for webmention, we could separate it into an independent proposal as well
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tantek bear, agreed
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bear HTTP has ways of handling this - we just need to remind folks that it's already a solve problem
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tantek better to re-use the existing layer when we can rather than abstracting on top
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voxpelli there has been talks on tombstones anyways so not sure it would add much extra complexity if h-feeds can be expected to have them anyway
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aaronpk voxpelli: you can always "update" your post to remove all the content, but that wouldn't be treated as a delete by consumers
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tantek voxpelli: no one can agree on how to do tombstones, that's part of the problem - it's a bunch of new design / brainstorming etc.
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tantek and a source of new bugs etc.
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bear voxpelli - sure, not saying that tombstones are not a viable alternative if someone wants it, just saying that we should get the MVP use cases explored and wiki-fied
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tantek I'd say, you should always *expect* more complexity for something that has yet to be designed
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tantek rather than "not sure it would add much extra complexity"
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voxpelli bear: absolutely! :)
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tantek all new features are suspected of being complex until proven otherwise
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voxpelli tantek: aaronpk: I thought a dt-deleted that mimicked dt-published and dt-updates was the tombstone thing people aimed for?
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bear voxpelli - would love if you could add a section about tombstones (or pointers to the discussion of) to the deleted wiki page
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bear ok, I really have to refocus to work - be back later to catch up
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aaronpk i don't actually remember where the dt-deleted discussion ended up
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gRegorLove tantek: issue added, and voted
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tantek gRegorLove++ thank you!
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Loqi gRegorLove has 62 karma
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tantek voxpelli, aaronpk it dt-deleted didn't make it past brainstorm, didn't "end up" at any conclusion
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voxpelli the discussion I think I remember: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-20#t1442767336278
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voxpelli but I think there were a more recent one as well
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voxpelli aaronpk: with the webmention delete issue, is the spec phrased so that one MUST indicate through a 410 or that one SHOULD or MAY do so?
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tantek voxpelli: if there wasn't a conclusion captured on the wiki, then it didn't really "end up" anywhere
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tantek today in js;dr discoveries, what is it with bloated screenshot sites?!? https://www.peterbe.com/plog/screenshot-sharing-performance-comparison
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voxpelli tantek: I'll try to find more time to document discussions on the wiki :)
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GWG What if it is a 404?
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aaronpk right now it says SHOULD https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-deleted-posts
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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tantek voxpelli: it's a reasonable filter, if a discussion reaches a point where people both seem to agree, AND someone cares enough about the conclusion to spend the time documenting it, then it gets documented
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aaronpk omfg dropbox loads 5mb of JS to show a screenshot
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tantek if people either don't agree, or it's not worth the time to document (obviously per-person pref, appropriately), then it's likely not a worthy conclusion to document
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tantek aaronpk: yeah!
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aaronpk i switched to an app I had to *buy* in order to get a tool that uploads screenshots to my server and returns the raw image URL
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tantek wonders if screenshots are just a special case of /photo or something different
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aaronpk is it such a crazy idea that you can share a screenshot but just sending the image link?!
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aaronpk s/but/by
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: is it such a crazy idea that you can share a screenshot by just sending the image link?!
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tantek aaronpk: perhaps we can ask screenshot software to "just" support posting via micropub? ;)
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aaronpk I did :) https://aaronparecki.com/2016/02/21/7/
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tantek ownyourscreenshots !
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] @DropshareForMac I'm loving Dropshare! Could you add https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ support so I can easily upload to my website? Basically a file upload in a form with an access token....
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tantek nice!
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kodfabrik.se edited /deleted (+285) "/* Tombstoning */ Added note on possible use of dt-deleted" (view diff)
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voxpelli deletes in Salmentions will probably be interesting to figure out as well (still a bunch of code to do to get there though I think)
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tantek or not - not sure of any use-cases that need salmentions for deleteds. notifications certainly in practice don't use/need them.
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tantek "Someone deleted a comment on a photo you were tagged in" <-- said no silo ever.
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voxpelli all places that presents a comment tree of all comments would need to delete a comment from that tree whenever that comment gets deleted by its author
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voxpelli at least in my implementation notifications is just a script tied onto the side of the main Salmentions flow
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tantek hmm - yes distributed threaded comments could be a use-case for that
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tantek as we're getting these use-cases to work, I really get the feeling that the original "Salmon" protocol didn't actually work to support them because no one got far enough with implementing Salmon to actually run into these issues
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tantek or I should say, implementing *and using in practice like daily*
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tantek alright, how do we teach old RSS readers new tricks like rendering new content types like "notes" - https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/724654374446723072 ?
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@RikMende @t Wondering why @inoreader mix up your body content with the title seems like it's coming from your RSS feed (https://www.rmendes.net/2016/t-wondering-why-inoreader-mix-up-your-body-content-with) (twitter.com/_/status/724654374446723072)
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gRegorLove Nice: https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/724658356623945728
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@RikMende @Inoreader thanks for the check! let's hope @t can fix it :) curiously I can't reproduce that with https://woodwind.xyz/ (twitter.com/_/status/724658356623945728)
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tantek nothing for me to "fix" AFAIK. How do we get @Inoreader to support rendering "notes"?
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gRegorLove "Nice" to his mention of woodwind handling it, to be clear.
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tantek I figured :)
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gRegorLove Nothing wrong with your feed. Doubt they're going to add anything to check for feed items where the title = content
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gRegorLove A pet project I'm working on is adding mf2 parsing to https://github.com/fguillot/picoFeed
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snarfed reluctantly replies to one of tantek's posts on a silo, since he suspects tantek doesn't see or respond to indie replies as often, since they're not rendered on tantek.com :/
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[kevinmarks] the point about tombstones is that they work for crawlers and sites that have update support
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tantek snarfed, aww, it's not either or, you can POSSE thread your replies ;)
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snarfed tantek: oh of course i do that. i'd just rather skip the silo entirely :P
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tantek totally fair
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[kevinmarks] so if you replace your post wiht a tombstone, even if it returns 200, and resend webmentions, PuSH etc the remote caches of ti will likely update
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[kevinmarks] if they don't have explicit 410 support they may treat that as an error and not delete their copy
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[kevinmarks] so if you actually want your post to vanish, replacing it with a tombstone served normally first, propagating that, and then changing to a 410 response later may be better.
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tantek kevinmarks, would be interesting if you can find any that "don't have explicit 410 support" - counter-example, Google search/indexing does have 410 support. Your turn.
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tantek Barring such an example, I don't think the extra work of double-updating like that is worth it.
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tantek looks to see if he can find a /Nike+ permalink for the chart snarfed refers to with more units or something
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tantek Nike+ js;dr sigh
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tantek https://secure-nikeplus.nike.com/plus/ to be precise
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tantek thinks to check @t_silos
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kylewm I've thought before that a webmention.io "Recent Mentions of me" page would be rad. Decouple receiving mentions from displaying/archiving them.
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Loqi kylewm: bear left you a message 2 hours ago: great idea - I filed issue https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu/issues/17 to track that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461606401903
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kylewm bear++
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Loqi bear has 125 karma
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kylewm now if only one of us knew Ruby :P
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kylewm (no offense shaners)
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bear oh, I know ruby... but i'm not going to officially offer up that
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gRegorLove matrix_I_know_Ruby.gif
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tantek snarfed: permalink 404? this used to work: https://snarfed.org/replies/discomfort-with-a-culture-of-performing
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tantek fails to find snarfed's original reply at https://snarfed.org/category/reply even after enabling several scripts
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tantek gives up on original-post-discovery on https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/724678615321866240
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@schnarfed @t huh interesting. do you know the range on the y axis? and if it correlates with elevation? or stoplights? or...? (twitter.com/_/status/724678615321866240)
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tantek grumbles something about permashortcitations at least providing some evidence that an original post exists
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kylewm snarfed: huh, yeah, why is https://snarfed.org/responses#replies blank?
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Responses
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snarfed yup news to me. probably broken by a wp plugin upgrade. added to my todo list.
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@dougmckown Facebook continues to eat the internet. https://www.thewrap.com/vox-facebook-the-verge-new-blog-circuit-breaker/ #indieweb https://twitter.com/dougmckown/status/724692021407944704/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/724692021407944704)
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aaronpk kylewm: yeah that's always sorta been on the backburner for webmention.io
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Charles ☕ Stanhope" by Charles ☕ Stanhope http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30376
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Jessamyn Prince" by Jessamyn Prince http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30372
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by cstanhope" by cstanhope http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30375
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by IndieWebCamp" by IndieWebCamp http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30377
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tantek errant salmention notifications?
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tantek those are actually 1 repost and 3 likes
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tantek no comments
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loqi.me created /Pike_style (+244) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on My 10th Anniversary on Facebook by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/24/my-10th-anniversary-on-facebook/#comment-30380
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kylewm so hmm, those comment notifications are coming from superfeedr; it must be the Wordpress Comments RSS feed
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kylewm as opposed to salmentions (that's what I thought at first too)
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dym_cx why jf2 doesnt store any rel=me in h-card?
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KevinMarks jf2 is just the items part of mf2 parsing
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dym_cx so, something like `<link rel="microformats2" type="application/json" href="/mf2.json">` for pre-parsed microformats would be beside the point?
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tantek dym_cx: would make a good April fools joke
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dym_cx technically, its still april
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tantek Gregorianally, but yeah
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tantek maybe rel="duplicate-side-file pre-parsed-microformats"
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tantek considers just adding "duplicate-side-file" to all his rels to alternative formats
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kylewm <link rel="alternate" type="application/json+mf2" href="/mf2.json"> :)
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aaronpk yeah the [indieweb] messages are from superfeedr
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kylewm I thought someone was doing this for a while
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kylewm dynamically generating the json, but advertising it in the header
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tantek aaronpk where is the "Comment on " text coming from?
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kylewm the RSS feed
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aaronpk right
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tantek seriously?
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aaronpk it's a wordpress thing
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kylewm tantek: http://boffosocko.com/comments/feed/
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tantek ^^^ GWG can we fix that?
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GWG tantek: Define fix
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GWG It can be disabled.
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tantek GWG, e.g. for likes and reposts (since obviously the blog knows since it is *dislaying* them as such in the high-fidelity HTML output), instead of
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aaronpk heh
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tantek "Comment on My 10th Anniversary on Facebook by Lynne Doran" should be "Lynne Doran likes My 10th Anniversary on Facebook"
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aaronpk "obviously"
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tantek and "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Charles ☕ Stanhope" should instead be (since it's an RT) "Charles ☕ Stanhope reposted Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me!"
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tantek that's the fix. for likes and reposts, output different title text for the RSS feed
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GWG tantek: Interesting thought. It is doable.
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aaronpk 👍
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tantek and frankly, installing the "Make Linkbacks Useful" plugin should take care of that, since it's taking care of the high-fidelity user-friendly HTML display
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tantek you know it would be pretty ironic if as a side-effect we solved the "How do I publish likes and reposts in RSS?" problem
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GWG tantek: I just have to see if there is a hook for the comments rss feed.
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tantek keeps thinking of too many April Fools specs
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GWG To be honest, if there is, it is a five second fix.
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tantek NICE
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GWG Except I can't push it to Chris Aldrich.
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tantek but you could probably @-it to him
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kylewm "five second fixes rarely are"
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tantek "Likes and Reposts in RSS. Since RSS is XML, simply use the Activity Streams namespace and appropriate <object-type> element inside an RSS item element to indicate a post is a like, repost, or note. E.g. <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">like</object-type> or <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">repost</object-type> or <object-type
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tantek xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">note</object-type>"
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kylewm can't you put the xmlns in the header somewhere, and then do like as:object-type=".."?
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tantek if you want to make it more fragile and less copy/pastable
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tantek like what I just did :P
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kylewm I mean <as:object-type>note</as:object-type>
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tantek right, and now you have a line in IRC that is bad XML that someone could copy/paste
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tantek not knowing that some header magic somewhere else is also necessary
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kylewm that's fair
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tantek you just made a simple one copy/paste into two problems
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kylewm interesting exception to DRY
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GWG If there is a hook, we're already generating the text. If I have to do more, it isn't.
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tantek "FAQ: 1. Can you do that even though like and repost are not defined in the referenced namespace for the object-type element? A: Of course! No one actually reads or pays attention to namespaces, and if a string value looks reasonable, implementations just support it as a token. No one bothers being strict about XML namespaces on the web. You'll be fine."
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tantek There I think I finished the spec for how to publish likes, reposts, notes in RSS>
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tantek s/>/.
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Loqi tantek meant to say: There I think I finished the spec for how to publish likes, reposts, notes in RSS.
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tantek Since aaronsw already published an RSS 3.0, I think the above proposal for likes, resposts, notes in RSS would be most appropriate to incorporate into a subsequent version that normatively uses AS1/Atom: RSS 4.01
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gRegorLove Haha
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tantek Loqi, remind me on 2017-03-31 to write up RSS 4.01 based on #indiewebcamp 2016-04-25.
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Loqi who, me?
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[kevinmarks] anyone seen https://github.com/heiseonline/shariff ?
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tantek continuing with this, Since "RSS" is used as a bucket term to refer to any/all common feed syndication formats, it makes sense for RSS 4.01 to also incorporate Atom RFC 4287, and use auto-detection based on root element to parse appropriately. Finally the problem of "What RSS or feed format do you mean?" will be solved, because of course the answer will always be "RSS 4.01 of course"
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sknebel [kevinmarks]: yeah, I read the magazine that made them, and I've seen them a few times in the wild on German sites
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gRegorLove Why not include h-feed too? :)
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[kevinmarks] do you think adding indie-actions would fly with them?
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sknebel [kevinmarks]: I'm not sure if it is necessary -> indie-actions don't leak data, do they?
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sknebel shariff widgets were created to allow sites to clearly conform to german privacy laws
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tantek sknebel: will you be at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf?
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sknebel tantek: very likely, I'll know for sure tommorrow or so
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tantek that would be great. I think a session on german privacy laws would be very appropriate if you can help lead a discussion!
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sknebel huh
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sknebel I'd have a lot of reading to do before that, but I'll keep it in mind
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tantek what is an Impressung?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Impressung" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jj
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tantek huh I thought that's what it was called
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sknebel Impressum
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tantek what is an Impressum?
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Loqi An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indiewebcamp.com/Impressum
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tantek sknebel: that would be a good start, and you can any articles you find that you think are worthy of referencing
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sknebel [kevinmarks]: does known do indie-actions, or is there a plugin for wordpress? if/once yes, pitching indie-actions as a topic to the authors of c't might be an idea
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sknebel they ran an article about known recently
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GWG I wrote one....but it doesn't work anymore.
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sknebel oh, they even mention indiewebcamp in the summary of the article, so they clearly are aware of it
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GWG By the way, read code. No hook, not five second fix.
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GWG sknebel: I have the code. I may just have to revisit it
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tantek what is the code?
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Loqi code in the context of the indieweb, refers to source code, code files, typically in a revision control system, like Git, hosted on an indieweb site https://indiewebcamp.com/code
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GWG The code for Indieactions added to WordPress.
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GWG Just, where I directed them is broken right now.
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GWG I can't change the Comment RSS Feed titles without rewriting the entire RSS comment feed.
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GWG But that is still doable by copying the core file and unhooking it
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tantek sounds like a reasonable approach
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GWG I just hate to replace entire WordPress core files.
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kylewm RSS Comments feeds seems like a low priority, imho
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kylewm does anyone actually read those things?
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[kevinmarks] My thought was that as Sharrif is already remapping silo iframe buttons, it's a vector to get indie-actions on servers for us
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GWG Surprisingly, if all I have to do is copy, edit, and tell it to use the modded file in the plugin instead of the built-in...that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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whatisbot What is Sharrif?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Sharrif" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jm
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/issues/59
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[kevinmarks] oops
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[kevinmarks] what is Shariff?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Shariff" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jn
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[kevinmarks] Shariff is a js library to make sharing services work without compromising privacy, and comply with German law. https://github.com/heiseonline/shariff
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loqi.me created /Shariff (+177) "prompted by [kevinmarks] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461628422780 and dfn added by [kevinmarks]" (view diff)
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Loqi ok