#indiewebcamp 2016-04-25

2016-04-25 UTC
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kylewm
hehe, going to need to add some code before i can pass that one
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aaronpk
i think i'm going to build it in to Telegraph
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aaronpk
haven't quite figured it out yet, but something like telling Telegraph to re-send webmentions that it had previously sent from a specific source URL
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[kevinmarks]
That is tricky, as you have to remember state
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aaronpk
indeed
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aaronpk
well really you have to remember the list of targets you previously sent to
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kylewm
should resend to all targets or only targets that succeeded?
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aaronpk
Good point, only ones that succeeded, or at least didn't reject it outright
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kylewm
aaronpk: oh hey the u-url on /update/1 and /update/2 points to /test/1 and /test/2 respectively
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kylewm
as well as the link in the header
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aaronpk
fixed thank
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aaronpk
how come bridgy didn't find any webmention targets for my latest post? https://brid.gy/twitter/aaronpk
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aaronpk
and all those log links are 404
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aaronpk
oh that's cause bridgy hasn't polled my home page yet right?
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aaronpk
ah yeah "Web site crawled 1 hour, 35 minutes ago"
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kylewm
nah, it should check it for updates when you post
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aaronpk
it found a bunch of favs and replies to my latest tweet, but didn't find webmention targets because it hadn't gone to fetch my home page yet
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aaronpk
my tweets usualyl don't have links to the original post so i'm relying on bridgy finding my canonical URL by polling my site
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aaronpk
i clicked "crawl now" and it looks like it's finding them now
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kylewm
aside: i cannot believe how obtuse the Google cloud console crap has become
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kylewm
the text "App Engine" nowhere to be found
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[kevinmarks]
It's in the top left corner menu
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[kevinmarks]
And yes, it is annoying
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[kevinmarks]
Also the new js one is so much slower
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kylewm
i think there are 4 hamburger menus on this screen
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kylewm
back to aaronpk's question: it's a bug it's a bug it's a bug bug bug bug
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kylewm
yep, filing
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aaronpk
kylewm++ thanks
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Loqi
kylewm has 321 karma
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kylewm
shore, my comments above about the "right way" to fix it make me nervous
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kylewm
hopefully there will still be an easy way
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aaronpk
it seems reasonable that if it finds a new tweet from me that it should go fetch my home page too
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kylewm
yeah defintely, it's coded that way, just short-circuiting because of a bug
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aaronpk
i'm aaalmost done with a test for deletes
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aaronpk
bam right on target
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Delete Test #1
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aaronpk
my goal was 7:05pm
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kylewm
aaronpk: delete test looks good except it doesn't show my name/picture after deleting
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aaronpk
hm yeah i guess i shouldn't delete the data
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aaronpk
kinda a weird case for this
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk
good evening
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GWG
Good evening
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tantek
checks logs
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sknebel
good morning!
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kylewm
!tell bear hey, would you be open to moving the lxml dependency to 'extras_require' in ronkyuu? i want to use it in bridgy, but it uses the lxml that's provided by appengine, and things get weird if we try to install our own :P
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed
oh man no joke
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gRegorLove
php-mf2 does, but the microformats/tests doesn't. Wasn't sure if it's some edge case I'm not familiar with.
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tantek
gRegorLove: hmm - for a p_* yes
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KevinMarks
hm, unmung gets "Tantek \u00c7elik"
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@Moe
RT @jkantel #Facebook zensiert – darum sollte man die #InstantArticles meiden http://blog.schockwellenreiter.de/2016/04/2016042502.html #Zensur #SocialMedia #IndieWeb
(twtr.io/1BtqMrSeUzj)
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@jkantel
#Facebook zensiert – darum sollte man die #InstantArticles meiden http://blog.schockwellenreiter.de/2016/04/2016042502.html #Zensur #SocialMedia #IndieWeb
(twtr.io/1Btq1SEMaW9)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "I think I just upgraded @withknown but the about page not showing correct version number? https://withknown.com/opensource/ #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/i-think-i-just-upgraded-withknown-but-the-about-page
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Wishing I could "Pin" a post on my #Known #indieweb" by Ben Borges http://1-m.cc/2016/wishing-i-could-pin-a-post-on-my-known-indieweb
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@benborges_
Wishing I could "Pin" a post on my #Known #indieweb (https://1-m.cc/s/7b11)
(twtr.io/1Bu520P7gSR)
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dym.cx
edited /User:Dym.cx (+81) "+Template; +anonymAuth"
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kylewm
output.jsbin!?
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dym_cx
its a "nice" anonym-ish vecort
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dym_cx
r
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@RikMende
RT @kevinmarks Great article on the bug mistake that is js;dr web design by @fox https://medium.com/@fox/the-web-isn-t-uniform-fd67eb631501#.cmcjmejn8 #indieweb
(twtr.io/1Bu7ifPFirU)
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kylewm
dym_cx: I just realized all your "Meanwhile" links go to non-existent accounts https://dym.cx/
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kylewm
that's kind of funny
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dym_cx
i purge social accounts every year or so
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dym_cx
"spring cleaning"
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dym_cx
email still works though, and im rethinking what to put on the site
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] Going Silo-Private to Prefer the IndieWeb, Leave Silo Publics, and Pioneer Privacy on the Independent Web
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dym_cx
and blocking google-bot from searching quantum-leaps me back into 1998
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dym_cx
and blocking google-bot from searching quantum-leaps me back into 1998
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dym_cx
why dbl
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dym_cx
web 1.me here i come
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dym_cx
gonna need a flash-intro with a java-applet for a "skip" button
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petermolnar
that hurt :D
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Update Test #2
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Loqi
[Webmention Rocks!] Delete Test #1
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GWG
kylewm, I am still writing update and delete code.
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GWG
And WordPress by default doesn't issue a 410 only a 404
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[kevinmarks]
I could get mention tech to do them up its still mostly manual - these ones require cms support really
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[kevinmarks]
Especially delete
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kylewm
!tell aaronpk monocle really pounds my server whenever i post an update. I get 15-25 requests for / and each post, from several different iP addresses (is someone in germany running monocle too?)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
yeah that shouldn't be happening lol
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Loqi
aaronpk: kylewm left you a message 1 minute ago: monocle really pounds my server whenever i post an update. I get 15-25 requests for / and each post, from several different iP addresses (is someone in germany running monocle too?) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461599997870
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aaronpk
Each post is being fetched that many times?
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kylewm
it's not hurting anything, just thought i'd let you know :)
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
kylewm++ congrats on passing webmentionrocks update 2 and delete 1! Is that with the newly envigorated Redwind?
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Loqi
kylewm has 322 karma
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kylewm
tantek: yup
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tantek
odd about the delete/1 showing no photo found, no name, comment text not found
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tantek
is that due to your implementation or the test?
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tantek
Either way, it's not really an ideal way of showing "success" IMO
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kylewm
the test I think, aaronpk said it probably shouldn't do that yesterday
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kylewm
and thank you by the way :)
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tantek
If a receiver is going to still show *something* for a deleted response, at a minimum it should keep showing the author photo and name, and maybe "comment deleted by author YYYY-MM-DD"
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tantek
does that mean aaronpk is working on fixing the delete test?
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tantek
And I suppose the race is now on to see who can get the second fully supported/automated passing result on update 2 and delete 1 :D
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[kevinmarks]
Aaron is probably in a conference room being inducted
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tantek
has to write *a bunch* of code to make that work
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tantek
is not going to bother trying to "manually" pass them, since there's no need to exercise them that way this time (the manual testing the tests helped find bugs for update 1)
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[kevinmarks]
Yes, to pass these needs the site to have a history of removed entries
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[kevinmarks]
Interesting distinction between sender and receiver tombstones there
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[kevinmarks]
CDURU vs CTHULU
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aaronpk
That's a good question of what a receiver should do with a deleted comment, but also what the test site should do too
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tantek
what is deleted?
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Loqi
A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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tantek
what are deleteds?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "deleteds" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jg
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tantek
Deleteds are the set of responses to a post that have been [[deleted]], and how they are displayed on the original post.
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loqi.me
created /Deleteds (+147) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461601421211 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk: ^^^ there's a page for starting document why, how to, indieweb examples, brainstorming for how / what a receiver should do with a deleted comment, including test receivers.
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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KevinMarks
"is suitable for a person to use as his/her primary implementation on a website" - how do you measure suitability? actual usage?
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tantek
seems reasonable. if someone is actually using it for their primary personal website, that's a decent indication of suitability.
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me!" by Chris Aldrich http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/
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GWG
Have I mentioned I like Chris Aldrich's enthusiasm?
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@misuba
@cw can you expand on what that syndication would look like? #indieweb
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tantek
^^^ now there's the spirit, asking productive questions!
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bear
oh wow, update test #2 is going to be *fun* (as in I will have to add more nifty stuff to my generation code!)
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Loqi
bear: kylewm left you a message 12 hours, 40 minutes ago: hey, would you be open to moving the lxml dependency to 'extras_require' in ronkyuu? i want to use it in bridgy, but it uses the lxml that's provided by appengine, and things get weird if we try to install our own :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-24/line/1461560554012
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gRegorLove
Good morning, indiewebcamp
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GWG
Hi, gRegorLove
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tantek
good morning GWG, gRegorLove
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bear
!tell kylewm great idea - I filed issue https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu/issues/17 to track that
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove
So I've mostly got the microformats/tests suite hooked into php-mf2. Something I came across last night in the test suite is https://github.com/microformats/tests#date-format-for-testing-purposes
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tantek
heh, date formats :)
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gRegorLove
"To allow us to compare dates please provide a way for your parser to output dates/times with the follwing rules: "Date and time are separated by a spaces ie 2015-04-29 15:34 ..."
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gRegorLove
I was wondering if that's something the parsers should actually be doing
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tantek
why wondering?
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gRegorLove
The microformats spec seems to indicate the T should be there, no space.
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tantek
hmm - certainly not intentionally.
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tantek
that is, space is preferred
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tantek
similarly, "Date and time keeps the authored level of specificity" is very important
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Loqi
Value Class Pattern
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tantek
right, that's only at parse time for assembling ("assembles") *separate* date and time values into a single datetime value for internal representation. that has nothing to do with output
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bear
I feel very strongly that all dates that are not specifically to be consumed by humans should follow RFC 3339
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gRegorLove
I'm not sure what that means, tantek
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tantek
bear, and as a human developer who consumes date times by reading data structures for debugging, I think RFC3339 is a mistake
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tantek
gRegorLove: parsing does two things, processing input, and produces output in some canonical representation
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tantek
that line you quoted is about the former
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bear
how can you say it's a mistake when it's written to remove all ambiguity from the text representation of a date and time
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gRegorLove
I'm missing where it instructs to do some more processing of that datetime value then
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tantek
bear, two major flaws. 1 - the T instead of " " separator is worse for readability. and 2. the insistence of seconds precision introduces artificial precision which is a qualitative source of error.
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tantek
gRegorLove: value-class-pattern only provides details for part of how you process input, it has no bearing on producing output
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tantek
so you're missing something that's not there
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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bear
your point 1 misses the point of using T for parsing - it makes the seperator something that cannot be confused with another seperator
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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tantek
that's better gRegorLove, that should specify replacing any T separator with space before returning - good catch
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bear
the use of " " is allowed as the "T" requirement is a SHOULD and not a MUST
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tantek
allowed is not good enough, better human readability should be encouraged
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bear
and it is - that is the whole point of them enhancing 8601
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tantek
well, subsetting
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tantek
also personal pet peeve, I think RFC3339 was wrong to omit ordinal dates
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bear
the limit to seconds being an integer value is definitely an area where the spec is bad but it still allows for it - you just have to read the optional section with a wink/nod
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tantek
bear same for minutes
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bear
again, this is a spec to enhance the machine parsing of date/times
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gRegorLove
I think the value-class-pattern page might need updating, too. That same link indicates "00" seconds should be implied, which contradicts the authored specificity http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern##If+by+parsing+the+%22value%22+element(s)
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Loqi
Value Class Pattern
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tantek
enhance with what use-case? the problem is it pursues some notion of parsing purity at the sacrifice of actual real world data quality
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bear
I think it's a great place to showcase the reason for MF2 usage: "hey, here is this known machine format and this is how you make it grok'able using MF2"
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tantek
gRegorLove: good catch, yes, likely
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tantek
gRegorLove: can you add those issues to their issues pages? (link at top: "Issue Page")
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gRegorLove
I'm still unclear on this internal representation bit. Why add the "T" to just remove it later?
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tantek
I think that "add the T" part was back when I still believe in RFC3339 before I got frustrated with its flaws (from running into enough real world problems)
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tantek
would be reasonable to propose using space as the concatenation separator instead of T
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gRegorLove
Is it worth wikifying RFC3339?
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bear
we should always strive to use specs as they exist and then document the flaws in the wiki
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bear
saying they are a mistake and should be ignored just sets us up for others to point at our specs and say the same thing
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tantek
bear, yes that's a better approach
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tantek
in IRC it's easier to speak in shorthand :)
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bear
(sorry if this is coming across as me picking on you, it just happened to be a moment in time when I thought I could make that point)
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bear
tantek++ for always striving to make sure our process is purposeful
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Loqi
tantek has 287 karma
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tantek
bear++ it's a very good point to make!!
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Loqi
bear has 123 karma
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tantek
gRegorLove: while you're looking at mf2 issues - could you contribute your opinion if you have one to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_name_when_alt.3D.22.22 ?
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Loqi
microformats2-parsing-issues
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bear
!tell aaronpk I have a concern with the webmention.rocks delete test requireing 410 to show removal - that (at first glance) seems to prevent any static site from being able to pass the test
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
bear, pretty sure the 410 discussion is on the wiki
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bear
oh? cool - I haven't caught up with the discussion from earlier
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tantek
specifically around 1. why 404 is insufficient (actually bad to use) for deleted, and 2. a possible (proposed?) workaround to returning a status code in meta element
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bear
!tell aaronpk hmm, ok, tantek says that was discussed, belay my thought until I've had a chance to catch up
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
aaronpk: bear left you a message 2 minutes ago: I have a concern with the webmention.rocks delete test requireing 410 to show removal - that (at first glance) seems to prevent any static site from being able to pass the test http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461607675843
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aaronpk
is not familiar with RFC3339, only ISO8601
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aaronpk
yes there's a discussion on the wiki about equivalents for http 410
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aaronpk
and I definitely forgot to add that to the webmention.rocks test. also pretty sure it's missing from the spec.
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tantek
did anyone either ever implement it or publish it?
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tantek
aaronpk - worth tracking as an issue on webmention spec? How does a static site implement (publish) a deleted response and send a webmention for it?
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aaronpk
i think so yeah
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tantek
including the proposal, to include in the spec, and maybe cc'ing some static site folks here that would likely want this to work, e.g. voxpelli
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bear
i'll be implementing it tonight for my site to be honest
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aaronpk
bear: instead of http 410?
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tantek
because if we get relatively quick consensus, then it makes sense to add it to the spec, and adding it as a supported way for the deleted test to be passed by webmention.rocks
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tantek
bear++ nice!!!
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Loqi
bear has 124 karma
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bear
i'll be implementing 410 in some form tonight
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dym_cx
410++
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GWG
I have to figure out what to do about 410 as well
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bear
because I completely forgot about having a placeholder with a meta 410 code
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bear
and my preference would be to have a 410 mini doc as that honours the spirit of the WorldWideWeb IMO
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tantek
bear, as someone quite familiar with HTTP etc. I would strongly appreciate your review/critique of that technique of using a new meta to communicate a 410
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tantek
(since I brainstormed / proposed it in the first place)
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bear
that is what i'm doing now instead of my $dayjob - so i'll defer that until later
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tantek
bear - totally fine - just let me know if you see any redflags
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bear
(but yes, these nuances are important and I feel that the simpler (just 404 it) has lead to a lot of bad design)
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voxpelli
just thinking out aloud: an alternative to publishing a status as a meta could maybe be to publish a tombstone as a 200?
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tantek
(exactly)
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tantek
voxpelli: that adds a bunch more complexity
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tantek
rather than just "here's a static site workaround for returning a custom HTTP STATUS" - which frankly static sites need anyway in general
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bear
I also feel its important to have the final status code be 410 in the browser and not 200 + human readable status that says why it was deleted
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tantek
if the meta http status works for webmention, we could separate it into an independent proposal as well
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tantek
bear, agreed
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bear
HTTP has ways of handling this - we just need to remind folks that it's already a solve problem
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tantek
better to re-use the existing layer when we can rather than abstracting on top
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voxpelli
there has been talks on tombstones anyways so not sure it would add much extra complexity if h-feeds can be expected to have them anyway
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aaronpk
voxpelli: you can always "update" your post to remove all the content, but that wouldn't be treated as a delete by consumers
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tantek
voxpelli: no one can agree on how to do tombstones, that's part of the problem - it's a bunch of new design / brainstorming etc.
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tantek
and a source of new bugs etc.
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bear
voxpelli - sure, not saying that tombstones are not a viable alternative if someone wants it, just saying that we should get the MVP use cases explored and wiki-fied
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tantek
I'd say, you should always *expect* more complexity for something that has yet to be designed
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tantek
rather than "not sure it would add much extra complexity"
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voxpelli
bear: absolutely! :)
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tantek
all new features are suspected of being complex until proven otherwise
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voxpelli
tantek: aaronpk: I thought a dt-deleted that mimicked dt-published and dt-updates was the tombstone thing people aimed for?
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bear
voxpelli - would love if you could add a section about tombstones (or pointers to the discussion of) to the deleted wiki page
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bear
ok, I really have to refocus to work - be back later to catch up
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aaronpk
i don't actually remember where the dt-deleted discussion ended up
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gRegorLove
tantek: issue added, and voted
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tantek
gRegorLove++ thank you!
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 62 karma
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tantek
voxpelli, aaronpk it dt-deleted didn't make it past brainstorm, didn't "end up" at any conclusion
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voxpelli
but I think there were a more recent one as well
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voxpelli
aaronpk: with the webmention delete issue, is the spec phrased so that one MUST indicate through a 410 or that one SHOULD or MAY do so?
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tantek
voxpelli: if there wasn't a conclusion captured on the wiki, then it didn't really "end up" anywhere
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tantek
today in js;dr discoveries, what is it with bloated screenshot sites?!? https://www.peterbe.com/plog/screenshot-sharing-performance-comparison
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voxpelli
tantek: I'll try to find more time to document discussions on the wiki :)
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GWG
What if it is a 404?
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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tantek
voxpelli: it's a reasonable filter, if a discussion reaches a point where people both seem to agree, AND someone cares enough about the conclusion to spend the time documenting it, then it gets documented
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aaronpk
omfg dropbox loads 5mb of JS to show a screenshot
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tantek
if people either don't agree, or it's not worth the time to document (obviously per-person pref, appropriately), then it's likely not a worthy conclusion to document
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tantek
aaronpk: yeah!
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aaronpk
i switched to an app I had to *buy* in order to get a tool that uploads screenshots to my server and returns the raw image URL
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tantek
wonders if screenshots are just a special case of /photo or something different
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aaronpk
is it such a crazy idea that you can share a screenshot but just sending the image link?!
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aaronpk
s/but/by
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: is it such a crazy idea that you can share a screenshot by just sending the image link?!
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tantek
aaronpk: perhaps we can ask screenshot software to "just" support posting via micropub? ;)
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tantek
ownyourscreenshots !
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] @DropshareForMac I'm loving Dropshare! Could you add https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ support so I can easily upload to my website? Basically a file upload in a form with an access token....
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tantek
nice!
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kodfabrik.se
edited /deleted (+285) "/* Tombstoning */ Added note on possible use of dt-deleted"
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voxpelli
deletes in Salmentions will probably be interesting to figure out as well (still a bunch of code to do to get there though I think)
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tantek
or not - not sure of any use-cases that need salmentions for deleteds. notifications certainly in practice don't use/need them.
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tantek
"Someone deleted a comment on a photo you were tagged in" <-- said no silo ever.
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voxpelli
all places that presents a comment tree of all comments would need to delete a comment from that tree whenever that comment gets deleted by its author
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voxpelli
at least in my implementation notifications is just a script tied onto the side of the main Salmentions flow
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tantek
hmm - yes distributed threaded comments could be a use-case for that
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tantek
as we're getting these use-cases to work, I really get the feeling that the original "Salmon" protocol didn't actually work to support them because no one got far enough with implementing Salmon to actually run into these issues
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tantek
or I should say, implementing *and using in practice like daily*
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tantek
alright, how do we teach old RSS readers new tricks like rendering new content types like "notes" - https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/724654374446723072 ?
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@RikMende
@t Wondering why @inoreader mix up your body content with the title seems like it's coming from your RSS feed (https://www.rmendes.net/2016/t-wondering-why-inoreader-mix-up-your-body-content-with)
(twtr.io/1BuQJ9mKGQY)
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@RikMende
@Inoreader thanks for the check! let's hope @t can fix it :) curiously I can't reproduce that with https://woodwind.xyz/
(twtr.io/1BuRiWt4w28)
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tantek
nothing for me to "fix" AFAIK. How do we get @Inoreader to support rendering "notes"?
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gRegorLove
"Nice" to his mention of woodwind handling it, to be clear.
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tantek
I figured :)
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gRegorLove
Nothing wrong with your feed. Doubt they're going to add anything to check for feed items where the title = content
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gRegorLove
A pet project I'm working on is adding mf2 parsing to https://github.com/fguillot/picoFeed
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snarfed
reluctantly replies to one of tantek's posts on a silo, since he suspects tantek doesn't see or respond to indie replies as often, since they're not rendered on tantek.com :/
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[kevinmarks]
the point about tombstones is that they work for crawlers and sites that have update support
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tantek
snarfed, aww, it's not either or, you can POSSE thread your replies ;)
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snarfed
tantek: oh of course i do that. i'd just rather skip the silo entirely :P
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tantek
totally fair
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[kevinmarks]
so if you replace your post wiht a tombstone, even if it returns 200, and resend webmentions, PuSH etc the remote caches of ti will likely update
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[kevinmarks]
if they don't have explicit 410 support they may treat that as an error and not delete their copy
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[kevinmarks]
so if you actually want your post to vanish, replacing it with a tombstone served normally first, propagating that, and then changing to a 410 response later may be better.
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tantek
kevinmarks, would be interesting if you can find any that "don't have explicit 410 support" - counter-example, Google search/indexing does have 410 support. Your turn.
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tantek
Barring such an example, I don't think the extra work of double-updating like that is worth it.
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tantek
looks to see if he can find a /Nike+ permalink for the chart snarfed refers to with more units or something
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tantek
Nike+ js;dr sigh
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tantek
thinks to check @t_silos
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kylewm
I've thought before that a webmention.io "Recent Mentions of me" page would be rad. Decouple receiving mentions from displaying/archiving them.
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Loqi
kylewm: bear left you a message 2 hours ago: great idea - I filed issue https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu/issues/17 to track that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461606401903
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kylewm
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 125 karma
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kylewm
now if only one of us knew Ruby :P
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kylewm
(no offense shaners)
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bear
oh, I know ruby... but i'm not going to officially offer up that
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gRegorLove
matrix_I_know_Ruby.gif
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tantek
fails to find snarfed's original reply at https://snarfed.org/category/reply even after enabling several scripts
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@schnarfed
@t huh interesting. do you know the range on the y axis? and if it correlates with elevation? or stoplights? or...?
(twtr.io/1BuYxijD540)
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tantek
grumbles something about permashortcitations at least providing some evidence that an original post exists
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kylewm
snarfed: huh, yeah, why is https://snarfed.org/responses#replies blank?
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] Responses
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snarfed
yup news to me. probably broken by a wp plugin upgrade. added to my todo list.
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aaronpk
kylewm: yeah that's always sorta been on the backburner for webmention.io
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Charles ☕ Stanhope" by Charles ☕ Stanhope http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30376
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Jessamyn Prince" by Jessamyn Prince http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30372
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by cstanhope" by cstanhope http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30375
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by IndieWebCamp" by IndieWebCamp http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30377
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tantek
errant salmention notifications?
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tantek
those are actually 1 repost and 3 likes
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tantek
no comments
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loqi.me
created /Pike_style (+244) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on My 10th Anniversary on Facebook by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/24/my-10th-anniversary-on-facebook/#comment-30380
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kylewm
so hmm, those comment notifications are coming from superfeedr; it must be the Wordpress Comments RSS feed
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kylewm
as opposed to salmentions (that's what I thought at first too)
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dym_cx
why jf2 doesnt store any rel=me in h-card?
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KevinMarks
jf2 is just the items part of mf2 parsing
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dym_cx
so, something like `<link rel="microformats2" type="application/json" href="/mf2.json">` for pre-parsed microformats would be beside the point?
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tantek
dym_cx: would make a good April fools joke
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dym_cx
technically, its still april
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tantek
Gregorianally, but yeah
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tantek
maybe rel="duplicate-side-file pre-parsed-microformats"
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tantek
considers just adding "duplicate-side-file" to all his rels to alternative formats
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kylewm
<link rel="alternate" type="application/json+mf2" href="/mf2.json"> :)
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aaronpk
yeah the [indieweb] messages are from superfeedr
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kylewm
I thought someone was doing this for a while
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kylewm
dynamically generating the json, but advertising it in the header
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tantek
aaronpk where is the "Comment on " text coming from?
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kylewm
the RSS feed
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tantek
seriously?
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aaronpk
it's a wordpress thing
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tantek
^^^ GWG can we fix that?
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GWG
tantek: Define fix
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GWG
It can be disabled.
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tantek
GWG, e.g. for likes and reposts (since obviously the blog knows since it is *dislaying* them as such in the high-fidelity HTML output), instead of
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tantek
"Comment on My 10th Anniversary on Facebook by Lynne Doran" should be "Lynne Doran likes My 10th Anniversary on Facebook"
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aaronpk
"obviously"
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tantek
and "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Charles ☕ Stanhope" should instead be (since it's an RT) "Charles ☕ Stanhope reposted Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me!"
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tantek
that's the fix. for likes and reposts, output different title text for the RSS feed
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GWG
tantek: Interesting thought. It is doable.
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aaronpk
👍
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tantek
and frankly, installing the "Make Linkbacks Useful" plugin should take care of that, since it's taking care of the high-fidelity user-friendly HTML display
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tantek
you know it would be pretty ironic if as a side-effect we solved the "How do I publish likes and reposts in RSS?" problem
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GWG
tantek: I just have to see if there is a hook for the comments rss feed.
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tantek
keeps thinking of too many April Fools specs
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GWG
To be honest, if there is, it is a five second fix.
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GWG
Except I can't push it to Chris Aldrich.
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tantek
but you could probably @-it to him
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kylewm
"five second fixes rarely are"
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tantek
"Likes and Reposts in RSS. Since RSS is XML, simply use the Activity Streams namespace and appropriate <object-type> element inside an RSS item element to indicate a post is a like, repost, or note. E.g. <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">like</object-type> or <object-type xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">repost</object-type> or <object-type
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tantek
xmlns="http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/">note</object-type>"
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kylewm
can't you put the xmlns in the header somewhere, and then do like as:object-type=".."?
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tantek
if you want to make it more fragile and less copy/pastable
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tantek
like what I just did :P
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kylewm
I mean <as:object-type>note</as:object-type>
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tantek
right, and now you have a line in IRC that is bad XML that someone could copy/paste
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tantek
not knowing that some header magic somewhere else is also necessary
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kylewm
that's fair
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tantek
you just made a simple one copy/paste into two problems
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kylewm
interesting exception to DRY
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GWG
If there is a hook, we're already generating the text. If I have to do more, it isn't.
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tantek
"FAQ: 1. Can you do that even though like and repost are not defined in the referenced namespace for the object-type element? A: Of course! No one actually reads or pays attention to namespaces, and if a string value looks reasonable, implementations just support it as a token. No one bothers being strict about XML namespaces on the web. You'll be fine."
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tantek
There I think I finished the spec for how to publish likes, reposts, notes in RSS>
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tantek
s/>/.
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: There I think I finished the spec for how to publish likes, reposts, notes in RSS.
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tantek
Since aaronsw already published an RSS 3.0, I think the above proposal for likes, resposts, notes in RSS would be most appropriate to incorporate into a subsequent version that normatively uses AS1/Atom: RSS 4.01
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tantek
Loqi, remind me on 2017-03-31 to write up RSS 4.01 based on #indiewebcamp 2016-04-25.
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
continuing with this, Since "RSS" is used as a bucket term to refer to any/all common feed syndication formats, it makes sense for RSS 4.01 to also incorporate Atom RFC 4287, and use auto-detection based on root element to parse appropriately. Finally the problem of "What RSS or feed format do you mean?" will be solved, because of course the answer will always be "RSS 4.01 of course"
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sknebel
[kevinmarks]: yeah, I read the magazine that made them, and I've seen them a few times in the wild on German sites
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gRegorLove
Why not include h-feed too? :)
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[kevinmarks]
do you think adding indie-actions would fly with them?
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sknebel
[kevinmarks]: I'm not sure if it is necessary -> indie-actions don't leak data, do they?
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sknebel
shariff widgets were created to allow sites to clearly conform to german privacy laws
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tantek
sknebel: will you be at IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf?
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sknebel
tantek: very likely, I'll know for sure tommorrow or so
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tantek
that would be great. I think a session on german privacy laws would be very appropriate if you can help lead a discussion!
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sknebel
I'd have a lot of reading to do before that, but I'll keep it in mind
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tantek
what is an Impressung?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Impressung" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jj
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tantek
huh I thought that's what it was called
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sknebel
Impressum
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tantek
what is an Impressum?
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Loqi
An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indiewebcamp.com/Impressum
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tantek
sknebel: that would be a good start, and you can any articles you find that you think are worthy of referencing
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sknebel
[kevinmarks]: does known do indie-actions, or is there a plugin for wordpress? if/once yes, pitching indie-actions as a topic to the authors of c't might be an idea
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sknebel
they ran an article about known recently
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GWG
I wrote one....but it doesn't work anymore.
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sknebel
oh, they even mention indiewebcamp in the summary of the article, so they clearly are aware of it
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GWG
By the way, read code. No hook, not five second fix.
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GWG
sknebel: I have the code. I may just have to revisit it
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tantek
what is the code?
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Loqi
code in the context of the indieweb, refers to source code, code files, typically in a revision control system, like Git, hosted on an indieweb site https://indiewebcamp.com/code
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GWG
The code for Indieactions added to WordPress.
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GWG
Just, where I directed them is broken right now.
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GWG
I can't change the Comment RSS Feed titles without rewriting the entire RSS comment feed.
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GWG
But that is still doable by copying the core file and unhooking it
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tantek
sounds like a reasonable approach
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GWG
I just hate to replace entire WordPress core files.
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kylewm
RSS Comments feeds seems like a low priority, imho
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kylewm
does anyone actually read those things?
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[kevinmarks]
My thought was that as Sharrif is already remapping silo iframe buttons, it's a vector to get indie-actions on servers for us
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GWG
Surprisingly, if all I have to do is copy, edit, and tell it to use the modded file in the plugin instead of the built-in...that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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whatisbot
What is Sharrif?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Sharrif" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jm
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[kevinmarks]
what is Shariff?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Shariff" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jn
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[kevinmarks]
Shariff is a js library to make sharing services work without compromising privacy, and comply with German law. https://github.com/heiseonline/shariff
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loqi.me
created /Shariff (+177) "prompted by [kevinmarks] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-25/line/1461628422780 and dfn added by [kevinmarks]"
(view diff)