#indiewebcamp 2016-04-27

2016-04-27 UTC
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tantek yes aaronpk , it is just Twitter, the old Twitter
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tantek "two people texting with each other where the conversation is public" is how Twitter got started
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aaronpk everything old is new again
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tantek it's the simple -> complex bloat cycle
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tantek what is an internet thought leader?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "internet thought leader" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ju
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miklb heh, I can't even remember how pre- @user was used.
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kylewm tantek: would you have preferred "influencers"?
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tantek huh, hadn't read this before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_leader
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from #iiw today on my site #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-iiw-today-on-my-site-indieweb
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@kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725122308671590400)
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@rochellefp RT @jgarber Homebrew Website Club DC is looking for a new venue. Know of a space for 5-ish folks to meet every other week to hack on projects? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725159376659595264)
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@nobantu RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725182598281072640)
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@openSUSE RT @jkphl Excited to announce that I will run a 1-day @indiewebcamp-ish event on June 22nd as part of the @openSUSE conf! https://events.opensuse.org/conference/oSC16 (twitter.com/_/status/725190080340566017)
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@egoexpress RT @jkphl Excited to announce that I will run a 1-day @indiewebcamp-ish event on June 22nd as part of the @openSUSE conf! https://events.opensuse.org/conference/oSC16 (twitter.com/_/status/725191943844716544)
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@kevinmarks RT @jgarber Homebrew Website Club DC is looking for a new venue. Know of a space for 5-ish folks to meet every other week to hack on projects? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725197825127026688)
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begriffs Set up an hcard+pgp header link tonight and feel all geeky and virtuous.
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aaronpk Nice. Did you sign in to the wiki with it?
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KartikPrabhu <phew> back after a HDD crash!
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cweiske your server? or your desktop?
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KartikPrabhu laptop
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KartikPrabhu off-topic: anyone know how to join the IRC Urls given by w3c?
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[kevinmarks] how did I post that withouth a link?
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KartikPrabhu catches up
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begriffs @aaronpk I signed in using my site's twitter rel="me" link but I didn't know I could use my key to do so. That would be even better.
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KartikPrabhu thought-leader--
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Loqi thought-leader has -1 karma
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aaronpk begriffs: yeah with a rel me to your key you can use it to sign in!
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: not sure what you mean the IRC URLs, but w3c has their own IRC server
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: so I need to join that server first?
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aaronpk Yeah
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KartikPrabhu ok thanks
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[kevinmarks] thought leaser
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tantek reads KevinMarks IIW notes
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tantek http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html
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Loqi Internet Identity Workshop 2016-04-26
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KevinMarks the second half is blockchain advocates saying what block chain suck at, which is an interesting
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KevinMarks approach
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KevinMarks I didn't take notes in sessions I was talking in though
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tantek wow lots of blockchain handwaving
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[kevinmarks] anyone know about EZproxy?
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tantek aaronpk: where did we get with the meta 410 propossal?
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tantek did that make it into webmention spec?
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tantek I realized it did not come up in socialwg telcon today
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KevinMarks there was a session on replacing it with openid connect, but something more like indeiauth makes sesne to me
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@kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725206761775341568)
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aaronpk Tantek: I haven't seen anything new but I thought there had been a proposal on the wiki for quite some time
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tantek yes - I mean in terms of incorporating into Webmention the spec so it would be in a WD that implementers could look at
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-iiw-today-on-my-site-indieweb
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tantek I forgot who with a static site was trying to pass the Deleted test
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tantek and could benefit from this
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[kevinmarks] I could be that test case
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petermolnar !tell GWG have you thought about periodically revalidating webmentions and deleting comments (or this could be an additional comment status, remotely deleted, for example) with the wordpress webmentions plugin?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@trbouma RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725284884885831680)
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GWG Good morning
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Loqi GWG: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 21 minutes ago: have you thought about periodically revalidating webmentions and deleting comments (or this could be an additional comment status, remotely deleted, for example) with the wordpress webmentions plugin? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461748211081
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GWG petermolnar: Deleting I put in hooks for, but didn't write the code to remove. Revalidation...on what schedule?
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kylewm wow, I got a lot of pure indieweb interactions yesterday, so cool
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Loqi [indieweb] "Everyone is trying to be "the next Facebook", while Facebook continues to struggle to get original content on their network as people tend to share" by Tino Kremer https://tinokremer.nl/2016/everyone-is-trying-to-be-the-next-facebook-while-facebook
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kylewm this superfeedr thing is so interesting.. there's like weird emergent behavior
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kylewm that reply didn't show up here until I replied to it
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kylewm even though it was posted 6 hrs ago
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kbs sorry what is the emergent behavior? [curious :)]
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kylewm kbs: tino's post didn't show up in irc when he posted it, it showed up six hours later when I replied to it
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kbs ah :-)
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@FestaAtDell RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725329246244200450)
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kbs Somewhat obsessed with notifications at the moment :-) wondering if there any indieweb interactions that don't involve notifications somewhere along the way.
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snarfed kbs: of course there are! notifications are entirely optional, right?
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kylewm hehe, kbs I lost notifications when I switched back to redwind last week. only see replies by checking kylewm.com/mentions
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kbs snarfed: true; though it strikes me it has the flavor of "if a tree falls in the forest and noone hears it..." :)
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snarfed kbs: hence manual checking
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kbs makes sense
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kbs maybe notifications are also more of a side-effect - the thing I'm obsessing over is more around things that are most interesting as an update to something. e.g. a comment, blog post [anti-example: opening a calculator]
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kbs maybe indieauth; unless the auth mechanism comes out-of-band I guess
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@jkphl Updated https://github.com/jkphl/micrometa to depend on @BarnabyWalters' latest php-mf2 release (and included yesterday's bookmarklet) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725344669064912897)
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@rangerj RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725348847283740674)
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jkphl.is created /2016/Nuremberg/IndieWeb-Hack-Day (+1600) "Created page with "<div class="h-entry vevent"> '''<dfn class="p-name summary">IndieWeb Hack Day Nuremberg 2016</dfn>''' is an all day IndieWeb introduction and hack session, held as part of the [h..."" (view diff)
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jkphl.is edited /2016/Nuremberg/IndieWeb-Hack-Day (+490) (view diff)
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aaronpk awesome!
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tantek Except I think it can be its own 2016/... event rather than being a sub page of Nuremberg
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tantek I think we preferred subpages of an IndieWebCamp just for sessions of that specific IndieWebCamp
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aaronpk oh yes
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bear tantek - i'm working on the webmention delete for my static site, currently running into "so, you are now the manager of this team... here is your inherited task list" :)
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tantek inherited task list?
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tantek which team? at work? or in terms of "make this work for static sites"?
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Loqi [indieweb] "Really nice and cheap tool to automate erasing your facebook activity http://activityremover.com/ before leaving or before going #indieweb" by Ben Borges http://1-m.cc/2016/really-nice-and-cheap-tool-to-automate-erasing-your-facebook
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tantek whoa fascinating
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bear sorry - was trying to be silly-funny about me being given the SRE team at work to manage
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tantek what is SRE?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SRE" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jv
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bear and the "ok, so your now responsible for all ops"
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tantek whoa "all ops" (run screaming ;) )
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bear SRE is Site Reliability Engineering and is used to describe the team responsible for the care and feeding of an infrastructure
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loqi.me created /SRE (+153) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461774878617 and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bear it's been a busy couple of days, but I have a serious itch to get update and delete finished very soon
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tantek bear - same same
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tantek webmention.rocks has been a very good motivator
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[emmak] i'm trying to log in to woodwind, and its calling my auth endpoint with no scope set. is that a valid type of request?
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[emmak] how do indieauth and other services handle this?
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aaronpk [emmak]: yeah that's valid, it is just an "id" request then
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aaronpk not requesting authorization to post to your site, just authenticating you
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[emmak] interesting
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[emmak] do some sites specifically request "id"?
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aaronpk the client can set response_type=id but if response_type is not set then the default is id anyway
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth-for-login
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aaronpk if the client is requesting authorization, then response_type=code
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[emmak] "id" is a response type then, not a scope?
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tantek what is a response type?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "response type" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jw
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aaronpk correct
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aaronpk response type is a parameter used in an IndieAuth (and OAuth) request to indicate whether the website is trying to simply sign you in or whether it is requesting permission to post to your site
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loqi.me created /response_type (+220) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461777156021 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /Events (+0) "fix date on HWC LA - it's tonight AFAIK" (view diff)
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tantek !tell shaners is HWC LA/SM still a go for tonight? Can you make sure folks are on IRC / Slack and take notes? And a photo? Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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[kevinmarks] So it's demo day at #iiw
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[kevinmarks] What is a good 5 minute indieweb demo?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "good 5 minute indieweb demo" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jx
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: swat0! :P
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snarfed or at least federated commenting, liking, etc
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tantek snarfed is right
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aaronpk a good 5 minute indieweb demo is [[SWAT0]]
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loqi.me created /good_5_minute_indieweb_demo (+18) "prompted by [kevinmarks] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461778359859 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek kevinmarks do you have anyone else with you with indieweb sites that can play a part in your demo?
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[emmak] after making an "id" request, the client has no need to contact the token endpoint, right?
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snarfed just FYI all, we're upgrading bridgy to FB API v2.6. it may find and send some old RSVPs and comments. let me know if you see anything broken or weird!
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tantek snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 216 karma
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@digime RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/725384209926377472)
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aaronpk [emmak]: correct, the client can just verify the code at the authorization endpoint
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[kevinmarks] i would ahve to be all 3 people in SWAT0 I think
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[kevinmarks] this is the 'do the same demo 12 times to people every 5 minutes' thing
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[kevinmarks] so I'd end up with 12 copies of whatever
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: maybe just indie reply then
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[kevinmarks] also, instagram is crashing on android N
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tantek Indie reply with automatic POSSE threading is pretty effective IMO
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tantek ownyourcomments and make sure the person tweeting (or whatever) sees your reply
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tantek best of both worlds
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tantek and a stark demonstration of the silo vs indieweb false dichotomy
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[kevinmarks] doing it via woodwind is also good, but maybe a bit more obscure
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[kevinmarks] eg I reply to kyle in woodwind, and then show that it is on my site, on twitter and on his
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tantek doing it via Woodwind is *better* because it demonstrates 1. how a modern "reader" SHOULD work, with inline buttons to reply, like etc. (Google Reader never had that)
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tantek and 2. the one-click reply inline UI is much more akin to the silo-UX convenience people are used to today
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tantek you won't otherwise get that on indieweb sites directly unless they support /webactions + /indie-config, AND you have YOUR personal site setup with indie-config as well
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Loqi [indieweb] "my POSSE buttons are still ugly though #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/my-posse-buttons-are-still-ugly-though-indieweb
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tantek why?
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Loqi [indieweb] "@brittb the terms I was using are indieweb ones: micropub for posting on my own site, webmention for telling another site I linked to them" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/brittb-the-terms-i-was-using-are-indieweb-ones-micropub
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[kevinmarks] because hosted known is not implementing the new syndication model yet, so woodwind is having to make up labels
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Loqi [indieweb] "the native known chiclets for comparison #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/the-native-known-chiclets-for-comparison-indieweb
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@kevinmarks @brittb the terms I was using are indieweb ones: micropub for posting on my own site, webmention for telling… http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/brittb-the-terms-i-was-using-are-indieweb-ones-micropub (twitter.com/_/status/725398382609485824)
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Loqi [indieweb] "15. Indieweb cross site replies: Kevin Marks" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/15-indieweb-cross-site-replies-kevin-marks
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tantek kevinmarks++ nice
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Loqi kevinmarks has 212 karma
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[kevinmarks] anyone around from 1:30 to 2:30 to post things I can respond to?
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[kevinmarks] kylewm is busy today
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petermolnar which timezone [kevinmarks]?
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GWG petermolnar: Re earlier...how often would you want to reverify? I'm worried about malicious actors there
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tantek petermolnar: kevinmarks is in PDT
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[kevinmarks] sorry yes 1:30 to 2:30 PDT ie in an hours time
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[kevinmarks] if you're comfortable with me posting inane comments on your notes as a demo
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[kevinmarks] hm, granary/twitter-atom makes me the author of my consumption feed, so I get my avatar by each post
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[kevinmarks] ah, only in atom? the html looks better
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[kevinmarks] but granary won't give me a list like twitter-atom?
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: interesting. looking at http://atomenabled.org/developers/syndication/ ...there's actually no image field for authors (or entries), only for the feed
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snarfed granary can do twitter lists. may just not be exposed in the UI
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[kevinmarks] ah, right. so It's an Atom spec bug
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: to get a twitter list from granary REST, use /twitter/USER/LIST/... (instead of eg /twitter/me/@all/...)
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tantek kevinmarks, I should fix that in RSS 4.01
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snarfed :trollface:
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[kevinmarks] also, granary doesn't escape # in a search
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snarfed REST?
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snarfed i believe it. guess i don't really expect unescaped #s in URLs :P
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snarfed ohhh in the UI. good point! will fix.
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[kevinmarks] I mean in the ui for search
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[kevinmarks] is that /twitter/[usrename]/[listname]/@all ?
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snarfed yes. technically @app instead of @all, but either should work :P
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[kevinmarks] it did work, yay
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[kevinmarks] hope I'm not thrashing woodwind with these huge feeds
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snarfed fixed the search query encoding. shift-refresh to see the new js. thanks again for reporting [kevinmarks]!
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[shaners] Afternoon, Loqi.
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message on 4/20 at 10:13pm: are we confirmed for next Wednesday HWC in LA? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (just making sure before I update all the things :) ) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-20/line/1461215634934
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 51 minutes ago: is HWC LA/SM still a go for tonight? Can you make sure folks are on IRC / Slack and take notes? And a photo? Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461777743057
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Loqi is done
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[shaners] tantek: We are still a go for tonight. I will make sure a photo happens and notes in the channel.
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tantek shaners++ AWESOME
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Loqi shaners has 33 karma
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tantek posting now
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[shaners] I’ve been AFK since Sunday when my van got burgled in Palm Springs while we were eating dinner. Our backpacks with laptops, ipad, passport, wallets, phone… all gone.
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tantek :( :( :( :( :(
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[shaners] I got a loaner laptop today
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[shaners] Yeah. :confused:
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[shaners] The only data I lost though was my lightning talk slides for yesterday.
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[shaners] So, I did it sans-slides instead.
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[kevinmarks] that's rough shaners
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[shaners] I’ll post the video soon
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Loqi [indieweb] "Hm, 2 people have already asked me for a flow diagram of #indieweb replies" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/hm-2-people-have-already-asked-me-for-a-flow
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: I'm here if you need me to post a note.
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[kevinmarks] do you show replies inline?
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gRegorLove Yes, though processing is every minute-ish.
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gRegorLove I could manually process them.
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[kevinmarks] I can make that work by talking abit before going to your site
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@indiewebcamp RT @t: The first Homebrew Website Club in Santa Monica TONIGHT @Pivotal RSVP: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club#RSVP https://www.facebook.com/events/1095799310461229 (ttk.me t4gy3) (twitter.com/_/status/725421443291320320)
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gRegorLove http://gregorlove.com/2016/04/hi-kevinmarks-heres-a-test/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] Hi @kevinmarks. Here's a test note syndicated to Twitter from my site. #iiw
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gRegorLove [kevinmarks]: Let me know if you want me to post anything else.
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Loqi [indieweb] "demonstrating #indieweb replies at #iiw on table 15" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/demonstrating-indieweb-replies-at-iiw-on-table-15
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KevinMarks aaronpk: huh? https://quill.p3k.io/auth/callback?code=bde3f09b276321ef28d4f325e23de21d&state=3119027&me=http%3A%2F%2Fknown.kevinmarks.com%2Fprofile%2Fkevinmarks
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Loqi [indieweb] "demonstrating indieweb replies on table 15 #iiw" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/demonstrating-indieweb-replies-on-table-15-iiw
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Loqi [indieweb] "thank you for being part of my demo #iiw #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/thank-you-for-being-part-of-my-demo-iiw-indieweb
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@kevinmarks @katrynadow demonstrating indieweb replies on table 15 #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/725424575748538369)
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@kevinmarks demonstrating #indieweb replies at #iiw on table 15 (twitter.com/_/status/725422646171566080)
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tantek does webmention discovery require doing a HEAD request first? and if so, it should require that if an endpoint is found, that it MUST NOT retrieve the document itself
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GWG tantek: I think it is recommended.
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gRegorLove https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/##The+sender+must+fetch+the+target+URL
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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gRegorLove That second part "MUST NOT" in the question doesn't seem to be specified.
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gRegorLove It's how the ProcessWire Webmention plugin works, though
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GWG The rewrites I'm doing on the webmention plugin have it retrieve the document only if it doesn't find the header links, to see if the endpoint is in the HTML itself, which is permitted
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gRegorLove "Senders may initially make an HTTP HEAD request [RFC2616] to check for the Link header before making a GET request."
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tantek I think that should be a SHOULD
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tantek s/that/that "may"
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I think that "may" should be a SHOULD
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gRegorLove Sounds reasonable.
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gRegorLove Maybe move it up in the text, too.
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Loqi [indieweb] "come over to table 15 for an #indieweb demo #iiw" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/come-over-to-table-15-for-an-indieweb-demo-iiw
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@kevinmarks @guylepage3 come over to table 15 for an #indieweb demo #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/725429263675981824)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Richard Pedro" by Richard Pedro http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30406
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Sarah Cotton Nelson" by Sarah Cotton Nelson http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30407
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Happy #IndieWeb Birthday to Me! by Keith Domingue" by Keith Domingue http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/25/happy-indieweb-birthday-to-me/#comment-30405
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[kevinmarks] quill is crashing with known
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[kevinmarks] :disappointed:
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@kevinmarks Showing @dsearls that webmentions can be on a static site too. (twitter.com/_/status/725430562362527744)
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KevinMarks demoing irc to slack to web for doc
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[kevinmarks] and replying from slack
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aaronpk KevinMarks: what was that "huh?" about the quill login URL?
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KevinMarks I tried to login and got an error
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KevinMarks I'll file an isseu now the demo is over
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aaronpk huh k.
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aaronpk you can't share those URLs cause they're tied to a session cookie and also temporary
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KevinMarks ah, sorry
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[kevinmarks] looks like syndication parsing again.
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[kevinmarks] I suspect known returning the empty arrays is throwing you too.
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aaronpk quill doesn't look for syndication targets until after you log in
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aaronpk oh I am wrong, it does try to find them right away
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[kevinmarks] did kyle fix this in core known?
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KevinMarks !tell kylewm can you log into Quill with your known site? known.kevinmarks.com (hosted) fails
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/issues/47 and https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1423
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aaronpk thanks
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www.svenknebel.de edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+188) "/* Participants */ add $me" (view diff)
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KevinMarks so, a good part of the demo is the webmention.herokuapp.com live updating
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KevinMarks I think I'll make a page on my static site with a tiny post just for demos
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aaronpk you could use webmention.rocks for that too. it shows comments in realtime
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tantek aaronpk: you may appreciate this: http://mediatemple.net/blog/tips/you-should-probably-blog-in-markdown/
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KevinMarks so the comment shows up without needing to scroll
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KevinMarks though scrolling down to reveal is fun too
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KevinMarks it feels like the prestige of a magic trick
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bear that's the only bit of javascript i've had the urge to install - something that just polls and sees if the page's etag updates
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KevinMarks the cognitive dissonance there is strong, tantek.
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bear to get that magic-update feel other folks have
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KevinMarks Markdown is a an abstracted language by HTML isn't?
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KevinMarks s/by/but/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: Markdown is a an abstracted language but HTML isn't?
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tantek reasoning with some decent principles: longevity, author-friendliness, separation of styling
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KevinMarks marking up with mf2 so you can extract clean HTML is another answer
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tantek KevinMarks: I think his point one hints at the key difference, less "cruft" in the content
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tantek where cruft is anything besides the actual content
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tantek including markup
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KevinMarks he likes their link format though, so we're not likely to agree
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tantek oh? I thought I was the only one that dislikes the Markdown link and image formats
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KevinMarks I find them very crufty
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aaronpk I prefer the media wiki link syntax
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tantek what is link syntax?
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aaronpk I can barely ever remember the order of the markdown [] vs ()
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "link syntax" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jy
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gRegorLove I can never remember the right way to do links on github (whatever flavor of MD that is)
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gRegorLove +1 aaronpk. That.
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tantek link syntax is a way of expressing a hyperlink, with a URL and link text, in plain text, such as Markdown, MediaWiki syntax, etc.
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loqi.me created /link_syntax (+156) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461795181160 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KevinMarks angle brackets are too hard, so lets use round and square ones instead
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aaronpk url first? text first? url goes in the round ones or the square ones?
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KevinMarks at IIW 2 people volunteered to make diagrams of the plumbing for the indieweb comments demo
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aaronpk nice
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KevinMarks so I'll see if they look similar
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bear to be honest I have the same complaint about mediawiki link - is it [] or () or {} and is the text first or last
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aaronpk the rules for mediawiki link syntax are very simple though
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gRegorLove URL-first makes sense to me.
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aaronpk URL first makes sense cause it's the closest to the HTML I would write instead
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bear url first to me is wrong because i'm writing text and *then* want to have that text get a link
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gRegorLove Link text is optional, so makes sense to come after the link.
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gRegorLove MW doesn't use () for anything special, afaik
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bear the link only then becomes the text if it's standalone
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snarfed gRegorLove: sure it does, for links
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KevinMarks url[space]link text is easy to remember
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snarfed tries to sidestep the bikeshedding
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gRegorLove snarfed: No? External links in MW are [ ], internal are [[ ]]
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tantek snarfed lol
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bear i'm just pushing back because of the variations on "easy to remember" i'm seeing
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snarfed MD has multiple link formats. that's one. [text](http://link) is another
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snarfed (i always use the latter)
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aaronpk it does?!
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snarfed easy to remember varies widely from person to person. not a very objective argument.
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snarfed aaronpk: yup
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gRegorLove I'm referring to MediaWiki, which isn't Markdown
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aaronparecki.com edited /Test (-48) (view diff)
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gRegorLove Sorry for MW/MD confusion
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snarfed oh sorry gRegorLove, i misread MW as MD
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aaronpk yeah not so much
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KevinMarks fair point; I suppose it's me knowing URLs can't have spaces in
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aaronpk and markdown doesn't support mediawiki link syntax
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aaronpk not sure there is any overlap there
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gRegorLove Anyway, let's go shopping
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tantek documents the bikeshedding
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tantek Hmm I still need a name for my fixed version of Markdown / alternative
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aaronpk Marktek
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bear textfirst
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tantek interesting, I chose linktext before URL in my syntax, because the linktext is what a user is reading first and foremost more than the URL it links to
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KevinMarks Poshmark (as opposed to Commonmark)
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tantek Posh has too many negative (elitist?) connotations
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KevinMarks that was the joke
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KevinMarks Raremark
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bear writable - because that is just what it is
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tantek textfirst is catchy
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KevinMarks plaintek
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tantek :P
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tantek if we really want to pick unspellable by hearing, plaintekst
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tantek hah textfirst already is a hashtag that means text before calling etc.
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tantek.com edited /link_syntax (+1158) "dfn tweaks, examples, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:gregor (-19) "embed not redirect" (view diff)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /2016/LA/Guest_List (+408) "/* RSVPs from other sites */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /link_syntax (+170) "/* Usability considerations */ agrees with bear" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /link_syntax (+38) "/* Usability considerations */" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek: text first makes sense the way you describe it. My perspective is mostly from writing HTML links and MediaWiki syntax for so long.
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KevinMarks the dynamic UI is write the text then select it to add a link in almost all authoring tools
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gRegorLove How many signature template files do I need?? Haha
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bear that also fits my mental model of what a footnote is (which is what I view a link as for a very old reason)
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KevinMarks isn't markdown link syntax based on footnotes? [1] etc
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gRegorLove tantek: Why transclusion not redirect for signatures?
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tantek just a pattern I picked up from wikipedia. transclusion for templates
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gRegorLove wonders how long until someone makes Template:gRegorLove now
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Loqi I don't know
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bear FYI - if you have projects on readthedocs.org they will now be hosted on readthedocs.io
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bear oops - *subdomains* on...
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tantek.com edited /markdown (+145) "/* Articles */ you should probably blog in markdown" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /markdown (+58) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is readthedocs?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "readthedocs" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Jz
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bear readthedocs is http://readthedocs.org and is a site for projects to host documentation for their projects
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loqi.me created /readthedocs (+132) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461798109586 and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek Re: text first: https://twitter.com/estar894/status/712476312666021888
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@estar894 #textfirst [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/712476312666021888)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:gRegor (+398) "added documentation, link to how-to" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: doubtful since it's more work to type the caps.
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tantek (except when tab completing "greg" in IRC ;) )
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gRegorLove Yeah, mostly kidding
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tantek.com edited /link_syntax (+234) "/* Markdown criticism */ old tweet citation, unmemorable" (view diff)
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tantek re: naming of my fixed markdown. I'm trying to determine either syntax mnemonics of common principles that a name could be used to infer and thus rederive any/all of the syntax.
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bear I was trying out variations of words that mean the act of creating a composition or body of text - so that the name says exactly what it is doing, getting out of the way so you can compose your thoughts
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: Didn't get many responses to testing out cross-site replies, or just needed that one comment?
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KevinMarks I ended up responding to random tweets and things too
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tantek bear interesting that I came to the same conclusion you did re: text before link
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gRegorLove Speaking of fixed Markdown, I wonder what the status is of the one-true-Markdown they were working on a year or so ago.
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tantek bear: http://tantek.com/w/Markdown#Autolinking
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KevinMarks also to my own site as webmention.herokuapp.com is instant (that needs a better name)
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bear for me its because I was writing text long before html was a thing
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tantek for me it's because the text is the *primary* content, and the link is a "see also"
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bear (yep and that)
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KevinMarks at http://commonmark.org/ it is still going
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tantek all my changes are about putting the primary content first, then secondary, tertiary etc.
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KevinMarks "we plan to announce a finalized 1.0 spec and test suite in early 2016." is it still early?
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bear right, add only that special marker that enhances the text
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aaronpk maybe we can call webmention.herokuapp.com "TWEPTNABN" the webmention endpoint that needs a better name
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KevinMarks is it called 'a webmention endpoint'
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aaronpk AWE?
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tantek just as long as you don't name a webmention sending service SHOCK
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aaronpk yes plz
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kylewm I'm happy as long as it's not YAWE (Yet Another)
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Loqi kylewm: KevinMarks left you a message 1 hour, 51 minutes ago: can you log into Quill with your known site? known.kevinmarks.com (hosted) fails http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-27/line/1461793130618
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kylewm Kevinmarks, no got an error
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aaronpk quill error?
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kylewm Yeah
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aaronpk probly same but kevinmarks filed earlier
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aaronpk i will see if i can fix tonight
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kylewm Yep exactly
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KevinMarks I get to be the QA integration tester for micropub today
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KevinMarks kylewm++ for woodwind
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Loqi kylewm has 324 karma
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KevinMarks snarfed++ for granary
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Loqi snarfed has 217 karma
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KevinMarks benwerd++ for known
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Loqi benwerd has 111 karma
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snarfed thanks KevinMarks!
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KevinMarks voxpelli++ for webemention.heroukapp.com
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Loqi voxpelli has 71 karma
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KevinMarks aaronpk++ for spec writing
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Loqi aaronpk has 122 karma
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Loqi [indieweb] "#indieweb: Heading over to Homebrew Web Site Club in Los Angeles https://indiewebcamp.com/" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indieweb-heading-over-to-homebrew-web-site-club-in-los
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@ChrisAldrich #indieweb: Heading over to Homebrew Web Site Club in Los Angeles https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/725469425269243904)
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tantek !tell KevinMarks please capture all the user frustrations you experienced today while trying to demo various indieweb tools. That real-time experience and your immediate reactions / insights are invaluable for future user-centric improvements
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next