#indiewebcamp 2016-04-30

2016-04-30 UTC
#
tantek (agreed with kylewm, if you can figure out a way to remove it, that would be great)
#
gRegorLove Make a pull request! :) https://github.com/microformats/tests/
#
tantek kylewm, snarfed, any idea why none of the secondary (etc.) follow-ups to http://werd.io/2016/focus-simplify-kill-1 on Twitter made it into the Bridgy backfeed?
#
Loqi [Ben Werdmüller] Focus.
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek snarfed, did you join because you were mentioned?
#
snarfed no
#
snarfed reads logs
#
snarfed tantek: usually something in https://brid.gy/about#missing
alexhartley joined the channel
#
tantek has anyone that uses IFTTT tried Microsoft Flow? (flow.microsoft.com) - just saw this: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3063577/software-productivity/microsoft-develops-ifttt-rival-called-flow-for-connecting-apps-and-services.html
#
gRegorLove What is Microsoft Flow?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Microsoft Flow" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KC
#
tantek.com edited /IFTTT (+364) "/* Alternatives */ hosted free vs paid, Microsoft Flow" (view diff)
#
tantek Microsoft Flow is a free alternative to [[IFTTT]] at https://flow.microsoft.com/ for connecting apps and services with automation.
#
loqi.me created /Microsoft_Flow (+157) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-29/line/1461976241473 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
tantek.com edited /Microsoft_Flow (+278) "articles, see also" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove Is IFTTT only paid now?
#
tantek I don't know - haven't tried it recently
#
miklb no they still have a free tier
#
gregorlove.com edited /IFTTT (-11) "tweak dfn" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove "free alternative to IFTTT" made me wonder
#
miklb as does zapier
#
gregorlove.com edited /IFTTT (+21) "/* See Also */ MS Flow" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove What is Zapier?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Zapier" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KD
#
miklb isn't good at wiki definitions.
#
gRegorLove May not need its own page. It's on /IFTTT
#
gRegorLove Could use that to start though
#
gRegorLove Delicious.com migration seems complete. Now back at http://del.icio.us
#
gRegorLove https not working yet, though.
#
gRegorLove Hey, remembered my delicious password on the first try!
#
sknebel oh wow, they came back from the dead?
#
gRegorLove Never officially died, afaik. Just lots of transitions.
#
gRegorLove I briefly documented them on /Delicious#History
#
sknebel yeah, but the last few days I thought that was it
#
gRegorLove Oh, no. They announced on the blog the "going back to their roots" thing, including the domain
#
gRegorLove Took a couple days
#
gRegorLove We'll see how long until the next acquisition, though :)
#
Loqi I don't know
#
miklb Pinboard has been trying to buy it for a while
#
gRegorLove Does Loqi respond to every 'how long' with IDK?
#
gRegorLove How long until next-hwc?
#
tantek when is next-hwc?
#
Loqi Homebrew Website Club Meetup is on 2016-05-04 at Steampunk Bar https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
#
tantek :D
#
gRegorLove Yeah, knew about that one. Just noticed Loqi saying IDK a lot and 'how long' seemed to be the common words.
#
tantek Wow there may be something worse than plumbing-first design: concept-first design, or worse, concept-first acronyms, e.g. CHEDDAR: https://twitter.com/lewisha/status/724998185609924608
#
@lewisha .@fatemehx2 Momentum & plans building at #IIW. Take a look at @dmarti #CHEDDAR framework. adios #bigdata @dsearls [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/724998185609924608)
#
tantek KevinMarks: did you see this discussion at all ^^^ can you provide any context that would explain this in terms of a rational approach to technology and/or policy?
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] Yes, I tweeted notes, need to link them. There is a defining post
#
tantek.com created /The_Loqi (+303) "stub, dfn, see also" (view diff)
#
tantek apparently I missed this when it was published: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/i-turned-off-javascript-for-a-whole-week-and-it-was-glorious/
#
Loqi Slide: 1 / of 2 .
#
tantek sigh
#
tantek good ol' Klint!
#
tantek.com edited /js;dr (+200) "/* Related Articles */ I Turned Off JavaScript for a Whole Week and It Was Glorious" (view diff)
#
tantek (totally missed the 1yr anniversary of js;dr)
#
tantek Interesting thing about that article are the "key" use-cases he lists offhand of things that didn't work: Netflix, YouTube, Google Docs, FB mobile.
#
tantek pretty sure my /video posts play without JS (they just use the video tag, browser controls, and an MP4 file)
#
tantek I wonder if anyone has even tried to build something even remotely similar to Google Docs that worked without JS. Closest I can think of is MediaWiki.
#
tantek are there any Micropub clients that work without JS?
#
[kevinmarks] http://blog.aloodo.org/posts/new-acronym/
#
tantek ok it's about trying to convince the ad industry to behave better purely with rhetoric?
#
[kevinmarks] It's a list of practices
#
tantek "practices" implies a framing of "existing" which I don't see links/citations to examples thereof, thus rhetoric
#
[kevinmarks] This is better advocacy for it http://blog.aloodo.org/posts/service-journalism/
#
tantek if you haven't done something, it's not a practice yet, it's just a theory
#
kylewm tries woodwind without js
#
kylewm got a weird JSON response in the browser but was able to post
#
kylewm also notes that Bridgy Publish works gracefully without JS
#
tantek nice
#
tantek kylewm were you trying FF dev edition when you got the JSON response? ;)
#
kylewm indieauth.com does not work without js
#
kylewm Quill works great with no-js
#
tantek wow
#
@indiewebcamp RT @marcthiele Hey @glennjones – this time no #IndieWebCamp for you in Düsseldorf? ;) https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/726219479911256064)
#
@indiewebcamp RT @kylewmahan @benwerd Google rankings tend to love indieweb stuff. I bet we publish differently than they expect a typical site to (twitter.com/_/status/726219344724656128)
#
tantek also interesting from that article: "Twitter worked, but it lacked the handy character counter, making it hard to know if a tweet was too long or not." which makes me wonder if there's an opportunity for a browser extension or possibly HTML spec addition to display character count for input fields, especially those with a maxlength or minlength attribute
#
tantek Also, "I could browse WIRED, but not view or leave comments." - do any IndieWeb CMSs allow leaving comments without JS? WordPress presumably does (guessing). Does Known? I'm assuming all the "send me a webmention" URL inputs work fine without JS.
#
tantek "The deal breaker was that turning off JavaScript broke a bunch of my favorite Google Chrome extensions. " - I wonder which Chrome extensions
#
[kevinmarks] I suspect noterlive won't work
#
gRegorLove My site's comments will work without JS
#
tantek gRegorLove: is that due to ProcessWire?
#
gRegorLove It's a custom setup, but I'm pretty sure the core ProcessWire Comments module will as well
#
tantek since /js;dr is documenting failures, I'd like to figure out the complementary positive framing so we can capture these good behaviors
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk I'm surprised quill worked without JS actually. I just refactored it to use JS in order to support photo uploading with the preview
#
aaronpk maybe it fell back to a normal form post somehow
#
aaronpk but I build the category array in JS so that would come through as a comma separated string probly
#
tantek fascinating: http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-f8-ten-year-roadmap-2016-4 - was anyone at F8 this year to see this in person?
#
tantek.com edited /Facebook (+173) "/* Articles */ Facebook just showed us its 10-year road map in one graphic" (view diff)
#
tantek What's fascinating about this chart http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/570d2caa52bcd01a008bc210-997-419/screen%20shot%202016-04-12%20at%201.10.45%20pm.png is that it looks a lot like some of the future plans of Google 5-10 years ago (IIRC), except FB is already executing much better across the board on its "products" than Google has.
#
tantek.com edited /Facebook (+250) "/* Articles */ embed roadmap inline" (view diff)
#
tantek which do people here feel like they keep in mind more when doing web development? Graceful Degradation or Progressive Enhancement? (see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Graceful_degradation_versus_progressive_enhancement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement for clarification if you're not sure)
#
tantek Or door number 3: Unobtrusive Javascript: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript
#
aaronpk For content based sites, progressive enhancement
#
aaronpk But not for apps
#
tantek clearly you did *something* for Quill
#
aaronpk Possibly unintentionally lol
#
aaronpk but that would be graceful degradation since I definitely prioritized JS for it
#
tantek.com edited /Events (+7) "move past events to recent, done with April 2016!" (view diff)
alexhartley joined the channel
#
tantek I'm pushing the limits of how much manual work I have to do to person-tag my photo posts.
#
tantek what kind of UI are folks using for person-tagging their photo posts? (besides PESOSing via ownyourgram :P )
snarfed joined the channel
#
sknebel what's the way to add attributes (e.g. dt-created, p-location) to a photo in a post? I'm sure I read something in the wiki, but I can't find it again
#
sknebel there doesn't seem to be a microformat specific to images, so put the image in a nested h-entry?
#
tantek sknebel: the photo isn't in the post, it's a /photo post
#
tantek what is a photo?
#
Loqi A photo is a post whose primary content is a photograph or other image, with an optional caption. With multiple photographs it becomes a multi-photo post https://indiewebcamp.com/photo
#
tantek where did you get dt-created from?
#
sknebel good question, probably meant published ;)
#
sknebel but that doesn't work for a post like "I was there one year ago"
#
tantek is that what you're posting?
#
sknebel Or if the image is an illustration, the place where it was taken might still be interesting
#
sknebel but is not the location of the post
#
sknebel the "1 year ago" scenario was what I was originally thinking about
#
tantek do you have some 1 year old photos that you're thinking about posting?
#
sknebel yes ;)
#
tantek what is a throwback
#
Loqi A throwback is a current post of content from some time ago, typically at least days, often years https://indiewebcamp.com/throwback
#
tantek one particular challenge that I'm finding with manual person-tagging is that some (most?) do not have their own site, and some do not have a Twitter username (which could be used for a simple text-entry of @-names), a few don't have FB either.
alexhartley joined the channel
#
snarfed tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 288 karma
#
snarfed span class="h-card" ?
#
tantek yeah that's the fallback, with just an implied name inside
#
tantek or rather span class="p-category h-card"
#
tantek instead of "u-category h-card"
#
tantek when there's nothing to link to
#
tantek though perhaps I can make a local person-tag page for them?
snarfed and snarfed1 joined the channel
#
GWG Evening
#
tantek Evening
#
tantek hmm I've decided to always use u-category h-card
#
GWG I'm looking at Salmentions.
#
tantek for person-tags
#
tantek and then inside, even if I don't have an indieweb site for the person, I'm using <a class="p-name"> instead of span figuring it's less work to upgrade that to add u-url and an href
mlncn joined the channel
#
tantek GWG, have you done any implementing or designing of UI for person-tags?
#
GWG No. It is low on my list because I don't post pictures of other people often.
#
tantek is SWAT0 a priority for you?
#
GWG I'd be interested in getting WordPress able to participate.
#
tantek GWG do you know if there is any work in the WordPress community to add the concept of tagging people in photos to WordPress photo posts?
#
GWG Not that I've seen.
#
GWG But the work I'm doing right now wouldn't help on the interface side, but tagging support is limited in Semantic Linkback. It recognizes the relationship, but not much more.
#
tantek there is an aspect of tagging that is related to Semantic Linkback as it were
#
tantek that is /tag-of posts
#
tantek I should say, /tag-of responses in particular
#
Loqi agreed.
#
GWG I'm trying to figure out how to make it easier to extend that.
KartikPrabhu, hecliunyx, snarfed and alexhartley joined the channel
#
@oemb1905 @BitMinter help - been using Yahoo OpenID but now have own thru IndieAuth delegation and or thru StackExchng - want to keep user name w/new (twitter.com/_/status/726304756163993600)
j12t and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] I had that person tagging problem at iiw
#
[kevinmarks] With noterlive - I didn't have urls or even full names for people speaking
tantek, nitot_, j12t, nitot, alexhartley and loic_m joined the channel
#
mlsrv.de edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+251) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
#
mlsrv.de edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (-7) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
Pierre-O, Kopfstein and nitot joined the channel
#
@RikMende Hello @Plag_Network @eliaszudin would be really interesting to implement some #indieweb in Plag, what do you think ? (twitter.com/_/status/726390428350713856)
nitot, alexhartley, mlncn, dogada, acegiak and loic_m joined the channel
#
@eliaszudin @RikMende @Plag_Network what is indieweb? Tell me more lease (twitter.com/_/status/726416258112049152)
#
Loqi [indieweb] "@eliaszudin for me #indieweb is just the "original web" before corporate silo's like fb,tw privatized the ability to make information viral (but you know already" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/eliaszudin-for-me-indieweb-is-just-the-original-web-before
mlncn joined the channel
#
@RikMende @eliaszudin for me #indieweb is just the "original web" before corporate silo's like fb,tw privatized the ability… https://www.rmendes.net/2016/eliaszudin-for-me-indieweb-is-just-the-original-web-before (twitter.com/_/status/726418841023062016)
snarfed, Lancey, alexhartley and mlncn joined the channel
#
kylewm this is very bad https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/665
#
kylewm "IG is blocking our scraping"
snarfed and _fran joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+160) "Offload media to separate services" (view diff)
#
snarfed instagram is now blocking bridgy's scraping :/
#
snarfed (technically 429ing, but we're so low volume that i'm calling it blocking)
#
kylewm snarfed: so is that game over? :(
#
snarfed not yet, but it's definitely downhill
#
kylewm small silver lining, maybe we'll get off our butts and use mobilepub or write another client to micropub photos
#
snarfed heh
#
snarfed the 429 body: https://snarfed.org/429.html
#
kylewm !tell tantek JSON viewer in Firefox Developer edition looks really nice, but the "items" entry is empty here http://mf2.kylewm.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Facegiak.net&parser=html5lib
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
snarfed joined the channel
#
vanderven.se martijn edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+224) "/* Participants */ Adding myself after finally booking the trip." (view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme with my reaction emoji i'm not tempted to map emoji to actual images
#
ben_thatmustbeme so its consistant view across devices
#
ben_thatmustbeme also, getting some strangeness of two different heart emoji
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think thats because i convert likes to hearts as well
#
KevinMarks well, that's tricky - it depends what device they sent it from
#
ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2016/4/29/1/
#
Loqi [Ben Roberts] Thanks to an update of brid.gy, now reactions on FB get backfed to my site as well. YAY!
#
ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: thats a good point actually
#
ben_thatmustbeme that gets even messier
#
KevinMarks the 'apple made grin look like grimace' problem
#
KevinMarks and the '2 dancing girls vs 1 with bunny ears' one
tantek joined the channel
#
vanderven.se martijn edited /IRC_People (+0) "/* Nicknames */ Zegnat: Stockholm → Amsterdam. I migrated." (view diff)
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/belated-notes-from-a-couple-of-sessions-at-iiw-wednesday
hs0ucy joined the channel
#
@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726466954245070848)
#
@kevinmarks Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726465800836513792)
alexhartley and hs0ucy joined the channel
#
aaronpk wow instagram
#
aaronpk not a good sign for ownyourgram
#
KevinMarks via Tim Bray, this seems apposite as we go through standardisation: https://web.archive.org/web/20070317093933/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs
#
Loqi Why specs matter
#
aaronpk considering alternate options for getting photos out of instagram
#
aaronpk for example, you can syndicate a photo in the instagram app to your tumblr or flickr account, and I could pull it from there
#
KevinMarks I wonder when pestagram will die
#
KevinMarks http://www.pestagram.com/user/1500881
#
kylewm aaronpk++ the tumblr path seems promising
#
Loqi aaronpk has 125 karma
#
aaronpk bah posting to tumblr loses the location
#
aaronpk turns it into a string of text "Coffee time #philz (at Philz Coffee)"
#
aaronpk the hashtag came through tho
#
aaronpk also lost the person tag
#
aaronpk time to test flickr
#
aaronpk also lost the location and person tag posting to flickr
#
KevinMarks if you post to foursqure, does that keep location?
#
KevinMarks this is going to end up with 'cross-post to facebook' isn't it?
#
aaronpk it must, but i don't always want to post to foursquare
#
aaronpk oh let me try with a different account. i'd be okay losing the ability to post to my main foursquare account
#
aaronpk well that's odd, it looks like it didn't actually push it to foursquare
#
aaronpk that's kind of a bummer. foursquare even encourages you to use their push API instead of polling
#
aaronpk instagram--
#
Loqi instagram has -1 karma
#
aaronpk actually it's probably facebook's fault
#
aaronpk facebook--
#
Loqi facebook has -14 karma
#
Zegnat Hmm, the ICS file that comes with the IWC Düsseldorf ticket is wrong
#
aaronpk what's wrong?
#
Zegnat The ICS is for Beyond Tellerand
#
Zegnat 9-11 March
#
Zegnat *May
#
Zegnat But IWC is 7-8 May
#
aaronpk hm, well IWC Düsseldorf is part of Beyond Tellerrand. I bet ti.to is confused because of the linked events
#
Zegnat Yes, I thought that too, it was just a bit weird because the IWC comes with the “ticket” for IWC 7-8
#
Zegnat Stressed a little when the event fell outside of my travel times on my calendar ;)
#
aaronpk strange
mlncn, miklb, hecliunyx, j12t, loic_m, hs0ucy, alexhartley, KartikPrabhu and snarfed joined the channel
#
@giyom RT @kevinmarks Notes from #iiw today on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-26.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726499980983160832)
miklb, loic_m, KartikPrabhu, snarfed1, Pierre-O and alexhartley joined the channel
#
@nobantu RT @kevinmarks Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726511967691636736)
#
snarfed1 woo. with new user agent and reduced polling freq (only every 2h max per user), bridgy instagram is working again
#
snarfed not sure which one did the trick. we'll see.
#
KevinMarks do you still have a webhook?
#
snarfed KevinMarks: are you talking to me? i don't follow
#
aaronparecki.com edited /database-antipattern (+577) "add quotes from amy's recent experience" (view diff)
tantek joined the channel
#
aaronpk !tell tantek is this name with no space a bug in the parser or...? https://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2016%2F121%2Ft1%2Flox-bagel-midday-sun-grateful
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
kylewm snarfed: any chance it was just a temporary glitch on their side, and the UA/polling changes are unrelated?
#
snarfed kylewm: sure, a chance
#
kylewm you think that's unlikely though?
#
snarfed probably yes
#
snarfed but not sure
#
snarfed ugh. twitter char counting (for replacing entities w/indices) uses fully normalized (combined) unicode, but python doesn't
#
snarfed soooo doesn't want to deal with this
#
snarfed grudgingly reads the unicodedata module docs
#
@INTERSCOOBS Webmention Rocks! https://webmention.rocks/ (twitter.com/_/status/726533899795480576)
#
@invispide RT @indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/726159125579620352/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/726533245635014656)
#
@invispide RT @kevinmarks Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726532784316121088)
#
@domenicoperri RT @kevinmarks Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/726532784278388737)
#
@EMETECHLONDON RT @INTERSCOOBS Webmention Rocks! https://webmention.rocks/ (twitter.com/_/status/726536918851313664)
#
@krisshaffer .@hypothes_is as a public research notebook http://kris.shaffermusic.com/2016/04/hypothesis-public-research-notebook/ #IndieWeb #IndieEdTech #digped (twitter.com/_/status/726539312292995072)
#
@remiholden RT @krisshaffer .@hypothes_is as a public research notebook http://kris.shaffermusic.com/2016/04/hypothesis-public-research-notebook/ #IndieWeb #IndieEdTech #digped (twitter.com/_/status/726544244081483776)
j12t and j12t_ joined the channel
#
@Jessifer RT @krisshaffer .@hypothes_is as a public research notebook http://kris.shaffermusic.com/2016/04/hypothesis-public-research-notebook/ #IndieWeb #IndieEdTech #digped (twitter.com/_/status/726546884752478208)
j12t__, mlncn and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] Wow, instagram now passes crappy geodata to foursquare
#
[kevinmarks] I pick the venue, but it checks in as the city
#
aaronpk Instagram and Moves switched to the Facebook places DB and it's awful now