#indiewebcamp 2016-05-03

2016-05-03 UTC
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aaronpk was there no IWC in February? I thought we had hit each month this year
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[kevinmarks] Kylewm: you could hide them until I'm writing a reply maybe?
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[kevinmarks] When the comment box grows on focus? Or do the like/repost buttons need them too?
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kylewm kevinmarks: yeah the like/repost buttons are the problem there
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KevinMarks http://2016.indieweb.org is showing the safari flex 0 bug again on the RSVPs
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit
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KevinMarks I wonder if you could collapse the syndication buttons to site icon +avatar.
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KevinMarks given that they're the same in the same order on every post
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kylewm KevinMarks: we talked a bit about making icons like Buffer: http://indiewebcamp.com/Buffer
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kylewm but I ran out of steam pretty quickly trying to actually do it with PIL
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KevinMarks you don't need PIL, you can do that with css
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[shaners] does anyone have an example of an image url with no file extension?
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[shaners] Like example.com/photoisajpeg
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kylewm shaners: http://werd.io/file/56d47d3dbed7de43417c7647
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[shaners] thx kylewm
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Loqi [indieweb] "Sometimes I wonder if it's a good idea to run Postgres, MySQL, Redis, and Mongo all on the same server. #indieweb" https://kylewm.com/2016/05/sometimes-i-wonder-if-it-s-a-good-idea-to-run-postgres
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@kylewmahan Sometimes I wonder if it's a good idea to run Postgres, MySQL, Redis, and Mongo all on the same server. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/727315616038711296)
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@schnarfed RT @aaronpk Registration for IndieWeb Summit is open! http://2016.indieweb.org Pretty thrilled to be doing this for the 6th year in PDX! (twitter.com/_/status/727319538920878081)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Shared a post by Aaron Parecki" https://kylewm.com/2016/05/repost-of-aaron-parecki-registration-for-indieweb
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aaronpk wow that's a lot of XSS vulnerabilities https://about.gitlab.com/2016/05/02/cve-2016-4340-patches/
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@kylewmahan RT @aaronpk Registration for IndieWeb Summit is open! http://2016.indieweb.org Pretty thrilled to be doing this for the 6th year in PDX! (twitter.com/_/status/727321141304414209)
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tantek talking meta 410 with benwerd https://indiewebcamp.com/deleted#HTML_meta_http-equiv_for_status
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sknebel aaronpk: just stumbled over this, any update to add? http://indiewebcamp.com/YouTube#Copyright_claim_on_unmatched_audio
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tantek ok I think we figured out a bunch of UX implications of implementing delete
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tantek e.g.:
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tantek * blank the slug
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tantek * in the <head>: <meta http-equiv="Status" content="410 GONE"/>
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tantek * "This post is gone." as the only content
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tantek * "Gone." as the name.
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tantek * skip it in sequential nav
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tantek * but deleted posts should still have their own nav (at least for the author view, to see what posts are immediately before/after the deleted post)
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tantek and lastly, since POSSE copies are involved
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tantek * have explicit "Confirm Delete" button somewhere, that when clicked, deletes POSSE copies. Is not undoable.
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www.svenknebel.de created /SlideShare (+218) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>[http://www.slideshare.net/ SlideShare]</dfn>''' is a [[slide]] hosting/sharing site, owned by [[LinkedIn]]. Slide decks can be uploaded, are converted to image..."" (view diff)
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KevinMarks kyle: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/LNXJmd
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sknebel (I was positively surprised that Slideshare doesn't seem to be js;dr, at least not for the use case "view a specific slide deck")
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kylewm kevinmarks++ nice!
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Loqi kevinmarks has 214 karma
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@malcolmblaney RT @aaronpk Registration for IndieWeb Summit is open! http://2016.indieweb.org Pretty thrilled to be doing this for the 6th year in PDX! (twitter.com/_/status/727369555828305920)
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Jeena Using decentralized indieweb technologies looks much more like an option now, doesn't it? https://theintercept.com/2016/05/02/whatsapp-used-by-100-million-brazilians-was-shut-down-nationwide-today-by-a-single-judge/
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@jeena Using decentralised IndieWeb technologies looks much more like an option now doesn't it? https://theintercept.com/2016/05/02/whatsapp-used-by-100-million-brazilians-was-shut-down-nationwide-today-by-a-single-judge/ via https://jeena.net/notes/644 (twitter.com/_/status/727373017433706496)
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@jeena Using decentralized IndieWeb te... more at https://jeena.net/notes/644 (twitter.com/_/status/727372723069030400)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Hacking on the edge with @benwerd. Open air, floating above the street, talking tombstones, , auto-expiring posts, Confirm Delete POSSE copies, gone, this post is gone. #indieweb #nofilter" http://tantek.com/2016/123/t2/hacking-on-the-edge-open-air
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tantek ^^^ embedded escaped HTML disappeared
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tantek aaronpk:
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tantek compare to http://tantek.com/2016/123/t2/hacking-on-the-edge-open-air
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] a jpg. Hacking on the edge with @benwerd. Open air, floating above the street, talking tombstones, <meta http-equiv="Status" content="410 GONE"/>, auto-expiring posts, Confirm Delete POSSE copies, gone, this post is gone. #indieweb #nofilter...
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Loqi [indieweb] "WeeklyUpdates/2016-05-02" by Alexandra.lucinet https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=WeeklyUpdates/2016-05-02&diff=1130698&oldid=1130572
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@silocreativo Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ por @wprincipiante (twitter.com/_/status/727410859438301184)
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@wprincipiante Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions en #WordPress http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727407583791820800)
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@rafaarmada Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ vía @wprincipiante (twitter.com/_/status/727418010651217921)
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@jmmupl Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions: ¿A que sería maravilloso que hubiera una forma estandarizada de notifica... http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727423098098585600)
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@wp_pamplona Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions: ¿A que sería maravilloso que hubiera una forma estandarizada de notifica... http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727423095904980996)
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@wprincipiante ¿Te gustaría recibir automáticamente una notificación cada vez que alguien menciona tu contenido en #WordPress? http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727422679532363776)
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terminalpixel Hey all, just wondering if there is currently a recommended way to do galleries / collections when using micropub? Can't see anything about it on the wiki.
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@miahfost RT @jeena Using decentralised IndieWeb technologies looks much more like an option now doesn't it? https://theintercept.com/2016/05/02/whatsapp-used-by-100-million-brazilians-was-shut-down-nationwide-today-by-a-single-judge/ via https://jeena.net/notes/644 (twitter.com/_/status/727441770573905920)
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@arirose_ny Fixed problems with date time in my database and handle webmentions the right way. ( http://indieberger.mediaberger.com/note/todays-improvements--16/ ) (twitter.com/_/status/727447159109488644)
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@wprincipiante ¿Crees que es bueno o malo para el SEO permitir #linkbacks o #webmentions? http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727452888377741312)
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@wprincipiante ¿Tienes mucho spam de comentarios con enlaces? ¿Cómo los desactivas en #WordPress? http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727483083839168513)
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sixtwothree.org edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (-96) "Removing Washington, DC from this week's event list." (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (-14) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (+14) "/* Brighton */" (view diff)
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GWG Good morning
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kbs hi GWG
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GWG Another exciting Indiewebcamp day?
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[jgarber] Morning/afternoon/evening, all!
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Loqi [jgarber]: tantek left you a message 20 hours, 7 minutes ago: is HWC DC on this week or still looking for a venue? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-02/line/1462213278251
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kbs Just coming up to speed on indiewebcamp coolness after a long hiatus
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GWG kbs, which coolness?
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GWG Hello, jgarber. How is the initiative in DC?
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@adactio Tomorrow evening it’s Homebrew Website Club in Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/727502451813785600)
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@unique3w Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions https://blog.unique3w.com/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions https://twitter.com/unique3w/status/727502349854363648/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/727502349854363648)
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kbs GWG: mostly poking around the wiki, generally interested in places where protocols/techniques intersect with external mobile app/web ideas I guess
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kbs was looking into messaging/"light apps"/"structured messages" for instance...
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GWG kbs: I would love it if someone came up with some mobile apps for my platform.
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kbs GWG: with apologies for having been out of it :-) what is your platform?
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GWG kbs: I have an Android phone.
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GWG I'd love it if someone wrote a Micropub client for Android that worked for me. (Sorry ben_thatmustbeme, still can't get yours to work).
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kbs nods
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, its okay, i basically stopped developing it. it works for me at the moment, especially since i made my endpoint work in offline mode
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ben_thatmustbeme s/endpoint/html client/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: GWG, its okay, i basically stopped developing it. it works for me at the moment, especially since i made my html client work in offline mode
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (+16) "no PDX this week" (view diff)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Maybe someday someone will write one that works for me.
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GWG Until then, I still have to write unit tests for Micropub for snarfed anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, i'd recommend playing around with the source of it though, its pretty simple right now
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ben_thatmustbeme I really don't think it would take much for you to get one working for yourself
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GWG I don't post via Micropub at the moment, I probably should make that more of an experience for me first.
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GWG Right now, I may have more projects I want to do then hours in the week.
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aaronpk same sme
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GWG aaronpk: You accomplished a lot of projects.
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aaronpk there's always more
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GWG Every time I saw...what if I did X...you've already done it.
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GWG My goal right now is to finish enhancing the webmentions code and related code, get it committed so I can start using the changes I made to add new features.
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[jgarber] @GWG: We’re without a reliable venue at the moment, but there’s still interest!
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GWG jgarber, if you ever do an IWC, I will try to come down
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[jgarber] @GWG: I haven’t had much time to think about it, but it’d be nice to have one in the fall. http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/DC
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016 (+69) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Would be really nice to be able to export/backfeed "saved posts" on facebook back to my @withknown #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-be-really-nice-to-be-able-to-exportbackfeed-saved
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terminalpixel GWG: Literally started making an android micropub client yesterday. It's my first (very poor) attempt at react native
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@RikMende Would be really nice to be able to export/backfeed "saved posts" on facebook back to my @withknown #indieweb (https://www.rmendes.net/2016/would-be-really-nice-to-be-able-to-exportbackfeed-saved) (twitter.com/_/status/727512422999695361)
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terminalpixel The main thing I want to be able to do is select photo(s) and share them to my micropub endpoint
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GWG terminalpi, I want that and link sharing.
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terminalpixel Yeah
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terminalpixel Do you know any android / react? Could probably do with some help on it
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GWG Not a lick.
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GWG But if you need a tester...
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terminalpixel Ha I'm sure I will, hopefully get it working in the next couple of weeks
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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ben_thatmustbeme terminalpixel++ put me on that list of testers too
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Loqi terminalpixel has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, GWG: I hear you on not having enough time in the week
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ben_thatmustbeme this is why jf2 has had no updates at all
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ben_thatmustbeme i have no time to even get my actual work done
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ben_thatmustbeme also my laptop died
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I sympathize
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aaronparecki.com edited /deleted (+0) "/* HTML meta http-equiv for status */ drop all caps since HTTP response is not all caps" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (-27) "/* Portland */ no RSVPs for Portland this week either" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* Portland */ fix link for two weeks" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk is that canonical? or case-insensitive? or current practice or?
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tantek checks WP
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aaronpk it's how the HTTP spec says to return the text
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aaronpk https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.3
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aaronpk the only one that's all caps is "200 OK"
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aaronpk you can also just look at the response from any web server
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tantek the text is optional right?
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tantek like you can just return the status code number IIRC
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aaronpk I think so
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aaronpk I think also the text has no semantics
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aaronpk you can reply "HTTP/1.1 410 Nothing to see here, move along" and it's still considered a 410
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tantek nice
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aaronpk alright, webmention.rocks should be looking for meta http-equiv now!
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tantek whoa awesome! hey bear ^^^
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aaronparecki.com edited /rsvp (+339) "/* Publish an RSVP */ add example markup" (view diff)
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aaronpk can someone with wordpress check if copy/pasting that example into a blog post works?
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snarfed aaronpk: it does, that's how i rsvp
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aaronpk oh neat
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snarfed haven't tried that exact snippet, but happy to if you want
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aaronpk wishes he had some content-type aware tests on webmention.rocks for this purpose
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snarfed (technically i use https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress , but it just autofills the post textarea)
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] IndieWeb Press This bookmarklets for WordPress
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snarfed i feel an rsvp wm.rocks test approaching :P
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tantek has started implementing tombstoning with dt-deleted in /Falcon storage files
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tantek one side effect I realized (pointed out to benwerd last night) of using dt-deleted for my tombstoning is that I can "automatically" get /expiring posts (as a feature) by setting dt-deleted date in the future.
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tantek to be clear: I'm using dt-deleted purely in the backend flat-file storage — I have no intention of publishing a dt-deleted property at this time (seems more privacy sensitive to *not* publish it, just like blanking the slug makes sense as part of user-expectations of deleting a post)
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@davilera ¿Habéis visto la última entrada de @ruthraventos? Aprendiendo cosas de #WordPress con ella http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/727529165956747269)
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snarfed ahahaha
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snarfed remember how we debated whether to use the unofficial https://twitter.com/USERNAME/profile_image url?
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snarfed twitter finally started turning it off
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snarfed (whether intentionally or not)
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aaronpk aww
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aaronpk that was a great trick
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snarfed it no longer works on mobile. eg try https://twitter.com/schnarfed/profile_image
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snarfed yup! ah well. easy fix for API users. less so otherwise
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snarfed updating https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Profile_Image_URLs
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tantek darn it
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snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+93) "/* Profile Image URLs */ twitter's unofficial URL is dying" (view diff)
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snarfed !tell kbs sounds like you might be interested in https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone . feedback welcome!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@HongPong @bangpound could you make me a co-maintainer on https://www.drupal.org/project/microformats ? i would like to make a good D8 foundation for indieweb systems thx (twitter.com/_/status/727536089179774976)
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@HongPong @bangpound i filed issue on https://www.drupal.org/project/2718207 about using microformats module as basis for #indieweb #drupal8 implementation cc @mlncn (twitter.com/_/status/727539582057717760)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Request to co-maintain for great Drupal 8 indieweb foundation" by HongPong https://www.drupal.org/node/2718207
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@KathyLeeDrupal Hey! What do you think of Request to co-maintain for great Drupal 8 indieweb foundation? I'm trying to build conse… https://www.drupal.org/node/2718207 (twitter.com/_/status/727542229741518849)
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kbs snarfed: https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone is pretty interesting, thanks for writing down your ideas!
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Loqi kbs: snarfed left you a message 34 minutes ago: sounds like you might be interested in https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone . feedback welcome! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462292908687
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Posting to the indieweb from your phone
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snarfed kbs: welcome!
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tantek what is mobile?
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Loqi mobile, in the context of the indieweb could refer to mobile apps, mobile use-cases, or being mobile friendly https://indiewebcamp.com/mobile
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kbs fwiw, was beginning to notice this trend within messaging apps http://spyrestudios.com/light-app-development-indicative-of-chinas-online-consumption/ left me intrigued what people find most useful on their phones, and how the technology is adapting to it...
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tantek.com edited /mobile (+141) "/* articles */ add snarfed's Posting to the indieweb from your phone" (view diff)
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bear \o/ Webmention.rocks Delete Test #1 passes with my static site returning <meta http-equiv="Status" content="410 GONE" />
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bear aaronpk++ for webmention.rocks
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Loqi aaronpk has 128 karma
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@notenoughneon I have published mf-obj, a set of utility classes for working with #indieweb posts: https://www.npmjs.com/package/mf-obj (twitter.com/_/status/727550550099664896)
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@myfreeweb RT @notenoughneon I have published mf-obj, a set of utility classes for working with #indieweb posts: https://www.npmjs.com/package/mf-obj (twitter.com/_/status/727551641424109568)
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bear Anyone with image processing code should read this CVE article about ImageMagick -- https://medium.com/@rhuber/imagemagick-is-on-fire-cve-2016-3714-379faf762247#.neo6k6k6g
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snarfed bear++ imagemagick is surprisingly in way too many server side code paths
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Loqi bear has 129 karma
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snarfed also importantly today, another openssl security patch :/ https://www.openssl.org/news/secadv/20160503.txt
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bear the openssl one is really specific if you manage X509 SSL certificates in code IMO - still needs to be upgraded but it's not as evil as the imagemagick one
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[benatwork] kbs: I think the separation between app and web is about to get really blurry. Nothing to base that on; that’s my intuition. The way to compete with the “app store” is to make apps work like the web.
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@HongPong @bangpound @mlncn sweet thank you!! we are going to D8 indieweb all the Drupals :D yess (twitter.com/_/status/727556754318495744)
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aaronpk is there a library that detects the magic bytes on images that i can use before passing images to imagemagick?
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aaronpk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_file_signatures
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bear I think imagemagick may have an identify command you can run before it processes
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aaronpk and that command isn't vulnerable to this bug?
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hongpong hi everyone I am working on getting Drupal 8 microformats related stuff implemented - i was made the maintainer of abandoned drupal.org/project/microformats a few minutes ago . first will get the library on there via composer, then will work on hcard/vcard and webmentions. webmentions are currently on 'vinculum' in D7 but will be able to go to more intuitive 'linkback' once we have something functional. please let me know if anyone wants to do
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bear aaronpk - not that I can see
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bear aaronpk - the best way to mitigate the issue is to use a policy file for imagemagick, tht way it will never try to evaluate the image items that are used for evil
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hongpong i also have reviewed and tweaked a D8 sitewide vcard/hcard module, it works for sure , the patch is here but the maintainer isn't really engaged so i might put it into microformats (leveraging the correct library) https://www.drupal.org/node/2624866
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@huffduffer ☞ #indieweb lunch time lightning tech talk https://huffduffer.com/kylewm/327559 (twitter.com/_/status/727220512787673089)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Plan for Drupal 8" by HongPong https://www.drupal.org/node/2687129
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tantek hongpong congrats and that's great news!
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@HongPong in next month or so i will be trying to get #indieweb #indiewebcamp microformats and related tech working on #Drupal8, get at me if u intrst (twitter.com/_/status/727562453312212994)
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tantek hongpong sounds good. I'd say starting with h-entry markup for posts, with h-card for authors would help
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tantek and then webmention
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hongpong thank you tantek . someone wrote a h-card for users Drupal 7 version so i will look at adapting that if possible. i think this will be a good architecture to minimize duplication
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tantek agreed. probably more important to figure out how to make h-entry work for all Drupal posts
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tantek as that was an area that was definitely a bit challenging for WordPress because of some legacy implementation decisions
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@Julian_mp Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ vía @wprincipiante (twitter.com/_/status/727566298868273153)
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hongpong there is a big mess with imagemagick right now. batten the hatches https://medium.com/@rhuber/imagemagick-is-on-fire-cve-2016-3714-379faf762247#.n1vrpmpid
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@mlncn RT @HongPong in next month or so i will be trying to get #indieweb #indiewebcamp microformats and related tech working on #Drupal8, get at me if u intrst (twitter.com/_/status/727579542773190657)
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GWG fternoon
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dym_cx hongpong: use GraphicsMagick
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kylewm do we know GraphicsMagick doesn't have the same exploits?
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bear unknown - they don't have any recent CVEs (last one is from 2013)
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hongpong thanks dym_cx
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@SaltmarshGidget RT @tinokremer @benwerd make sure you store the original URL, otherwise you will not be able to self host if the main service goes down #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/727587261697515520)
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@tinokremer @benwerd make sure you store the original URL, otherwise you will not be able to self host if the main service goes down #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/727587050396987392)
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[kevinmarks] Even bugs get to be indieweb now and have their own domains
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aaronpk i like how at first they were like "please dont give this a name, but if you have to, call it ImageTragick"
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aaronpk and now there's https://imagetragick.com/
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bear haha - I saw chatter about that in the infosec realms but thought they were just joking
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tantek is this another monoculture problem? everyone using the same image processing code?
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[kevinmarks] Independent implementations of codecs are surprisingly rare. They're complex enough that code reuse makes a lot of sense
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aaronpk i wouldn't characterize it as a "problem" per se
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aaronpk same with openssl
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tantek it's a problem because if an open standard only has one implementation that everybody uses, the code becomes the spec, instead of the standard
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aaronpk it's not really a spec issue though
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tantek in this case yes. but openssl is
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[kevinmarks] I wonder what's lurking in ffmpeg
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bear there are mulitple implementations of image processing tools - imagemagick happens to be the oldest one around and became a default in different language cultures
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[kevinmarks] I'm still sad that Apple never open sourced the quicktime core stuff for this, it was well designed, efficient and pluggable
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dym_cx is there a copyright time limit on code?
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dym_cx like 50 years or something
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dym_cx like 50 years or something
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[shaners] dym_cx: No.
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dym_cx woah
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dym_cx tripple
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dym_cx mom get the camera
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[shaners] Insofar as code is a creative work owned by its copyright holder, it’s copyright runs for as long as: its owner is alive and Disney keeps getting the US government to extend the length of copyright after death (to keep Mickey out of the public domain).
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aaronpk shaners++
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Loqi shaners has 36 karma
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aaronpk disney--
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Loqi disney has -1 karma
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dym_cx karma++
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Loqi karma has 22 karma
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dym_cx /meta
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dym_cx what is Recursion
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Loqi What is Recursion? https://indiewebcamp.com/Recursion
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dym_cx so i thought about webmention2email (http://webmention.email ?) – just set the WM endpoint to that site and it uses rel=me email – 0 setup/login
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aaronpk didn't someone do that?
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dym_cx idunno
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/questo.email
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hongpong i suggest someone add more of the main things on indiewebcamp to sidebar. such as the silos page, all the stuff at that level
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dym_cx yeah, 3000 wiki pages is not easy to go through for a regular bystander
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tantek hongpong - no, we used to have more, and that means people skim it and miss things
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tantek "all the stuff at that level" is like most of the wiki
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tantek dym_cx why are you going through 3000 wiki pages?!?
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dym_cx b/c that's why wiki is written for to read?
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gRegorLove Asking "What is" is a pretty good place to start. We're always improving the pages as a result.
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tantek dym_cx, nope, the wiki is written to capture the current state of discussions, so you can quickly reference the current state (as opposed to email, which is like reading a series of diffs)
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tantek no one I know treats any wiki like a book to read
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gRegorLove What is webmention?
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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gRegorLove What is email?
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Loqi Email is a decentralized, non-web messaging transport, with typical user interfaces that encourage excessively lengthy messages, in contrast to texting https://indiewebcamp.com/email
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dym_cx tantek: why not put expiration date on wiki pages if you dont want people to read it. like etherpad
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tantek current state does not have an expiration date
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tantek "dont want people to read it" is a strawman - no one said that
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gRegorLove questo.email is linked from /Email
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gRegorLove Not from /Webmention, though it's no longer active so maybe shouldn't be there.
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tantek dym_cx purpose of the wiki is more reference, so when you need to understand something, you look it up
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tantek like does anyone read a dictionary from start to finish?
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tantek and dictionaries don't have expiration dates either
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aaronpk tried when he was like 10
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tantek lol
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dym_cx gRegorLove: do we need a /dead_projects for such cases?
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aaronpk didnt get very far tho
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tantek what is a dead project?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dead project" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KN
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gRegorLove :shrug: I don't think so necessarily. Projects go inactive for a while, maybe come back.
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gRegorLove Like /Redwind
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dym_cx /projects is crawling with "inactive" projects past the LInE
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tantek dym_cx - yeah - in progress unfortunately https://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Under_Construction
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aaronpk It occurs to me that the /projects page was started before the "what is ...?" mechanism, and now that we do that all the time, we're way more focused on individual pages vs making a single page that is a list
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tantek though curated lists are still helpful, especially to new folks
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aaronpk maybe it's worth abandoning the /projects page completely since it's literally always been out of date
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tantek e.g. /IndieMark
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tantek aaronpk: well the top half is fine
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gRegorLove I think the top part of /projects is really good.
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tantek I was only keeping the underconstruction bits there inline to avoid massive cut/paste across pages history clutter
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aaronpk media wiki category pages make those lists automatically, only needing to maintain the individual pages
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gRegorLove Esp. for people who don't know what options they have
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tantek not really - categories die without maintenance too
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tantek aaronpk: in fact I dispute that for our community
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tantek I be that categories are more out of date than curated lists on the wiki
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tantek s/be that/bet that
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I bet that categories are more out of date than curated lists on the wiki
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aaronpk The top part of that is good yeah
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aaronpk but that was only after a lot of work and also after having several relatively stable projects
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tantek instead of worrying about clean-up, worry about what you can improve next on your own site
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gRegorLove I don't know about using it for /projects, but I do kinda like the idea of categories for implementations. We talked about that not too long ago. E.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/Category:Webmention_Implementations
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tantek dym_cx what is the next thing you want to get working on your personal site? https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Focus
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tantek gRegorLove: I don't believe it works in practice, it just becomes unmaintained as well
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tantek also most curated lists start because one person has a passion to curate a list for something, and then it proves itself that way
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tantek not the same with categories
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tantek even on wikipedia, the pages that are "List of ..." are MUCH more useful (complete) than the random Category pages
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tantek seriously, I kind of challenge anyone to find an existing *good* example usage of Categories
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tantek (on any MediaWiki)
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aaronpk What is Category:IndieAuth
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Category:IndieAuth" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KP
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aaronpk darn
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tantek it's one of those things that sounds good in theory, but the evidence shows to the contrary
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aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/Category:IndieAuth
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aaronpk i use that all the time
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gRegorLove I see your point and kinda agree. It's easy for curated lists to get out of date, too. E.g. when I switched from /Nucleus to /ProcessWire, or when kylewm switched to Known
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hongpong i like this category tantek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
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tantek aaronpk: but even that has a big curated part at the top, and the only reason the automatic list at the bottom has any value is because you made a deliberate effort to document those
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aaronpk Everything becomes unmaintained unless it's actively maintained, so it's a question of making things easy to maintain
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tantek with Categories, the maintenance is spread out, so it's more of a hassle
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tantek with a curated list, all you have to do is edit that one page
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gRegorLove I like the ease of anybody being able to add a [[category]] tag and it updates a list, vs. adding a few lines of description to a curated list
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tantek hongpong, while you're here, add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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aaronpk The other problem with lists is you can't tell what lists a page is part of when you're looking at the page
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tantek (another good example of a community curated list)
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tantek aaronpk why does that matter?
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tantek usually pages say what kind of page they are and link to it
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tantek some things are projects, others are types of posts etc.
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tantek if you're really curious, use https://indiewebcamp.com/Special:WhatLinksHere
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tantek which frankly is more useful than "what lists a page is part of"
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aaronpk When a page is created from a wiki dfn, it won't be added to any lists yet. If you look at a page, you can't tell if it's already been added to the list of projects for example
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KevinMarks the latest Allusionist talked about reading dictionaries from beginning to end (one contributor was proof-reading one)
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tantek KevinMarks, great - suggest that they read Wikipedia from beginning to end and see what they say
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aaronpk lolol
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tantek aaronpk for projects, you can see what links to /projects https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=projects&namespace=
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aaronpk is that even possible? I bet pages are created too quickly to ever finish
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gRegorLove "Everyone stop editing wikipedia please"
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tantek there are people that keep up with every new page that is created
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tantek it's reading the updated edits that's the problem ;)
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KevinMarks she said that reading it she interpreted every word as about herself
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tantek dym_cx have you taken a look at https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark to see what things you could add to your personal site?
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Loqi [indieweb] "It looks like no one is maintaining this actively and the last patch was in 2014. Just keeping up with Twitter and Facebook API changes" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/it-looks-like-no-one-is-maintaining-this-actively-and
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tantek.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+283) "-Glossary, dfn, see also IndieMark" (view diff)
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bnvk lo good peoples, long time no internet-relay-chat :)
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aaronpk Hi bnvk!
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aaronpk coming to an IndieWebCamp soon?
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wolcen hey all! Just wanted to pop in and float the idea of a dyndns service for purposes of allowing people to host known instances on their cell phone.
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wolcen I know at the recent IWC that the issue of deployment was a huge inhibitor to adoption... if it were as simple as installing an app, could be pretty cool :)
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aaronpk wolcen: do you host your Known instance on your phone?
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aaronpk Sounds cool
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wolcen aaronpk: not yet...but I'm crazy enough to try :P
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bnvk aaronpk: i'd love to, I see there is one in Dusseldorf, this weekned, yes?
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aaronpk do it! That's the best way to find out if a service like that would be useful!
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aaronpk bnvk yes!
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bnvk i'm not sure I can fit it, as just in Vienna and there's conferences here in Berlin all week. But I've been thinkin' and brainstorming on re-participating in indieweb :)
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snarfed wow, i didn't know known could posse to github: http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/it-looks-like-no-one-is-maintaining-this-actively-and
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Loqi [Chris Aldrich] It looks like no one is maintaining this actively and the last patch was in 2014. Just keeping up with Twitter and Facebook API changes can be painful.
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bnvk more specifically, I'm try to convince my friend Hans (who's working on F-droid store a bunch) to use IWC protocols to implement commenting and such
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gRegorLove bnvk: Like in Android apps?
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bnvk seems like a perfect fit, IMHO, a decentralized open source app store that uses a decentralized commenting / socia engagement protocol
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bnvk gRegorLove: yes
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gRegorLove Very cool!
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bnvk i've just stepped out of using Google Play 100%, and F-droid has some cool things down the pipe
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wolcen in any case - should someone want to help with such an effort, I'm interested and have some domain names to donate to the cause (e.g. indieweb.site)
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bnvk snarfed: should F-droid devs + community be up for it, would Bridgy be able to scale to handle a significantly larger user base pretty quickly?
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snarfed bnvk: definitely
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bnvk aaronpk: also, are you still running webmention.io and could that also handle / be open to a bit of load?
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snarfed it'd probably be pretty gradual anyway. bridgy polls infrequently (down to once a day) until you start actually accepting wms
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bnvk ah, gtk
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aaronpk I am, I'd need to manually scale it up for any more significant losd
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snarfed about once a quarter, someone tells me, "hey, my project/community wants to adopt bridgy, and it'd be big - 10k users, 100k, etc. are you ready?"
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snarfed and i say yes
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bnvk is it still in the state of needing to get a special code from you?
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snarfed and it never happens :P
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snarfed so maybe don't worry too much
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bnvk snarfed: aww... :P
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aaronpk nope it has signup now
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bnvk ah saweeet
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bnvk cool, well just added IWC as a proposal https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroidclient/issues/646
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bnvk feel free to add any extra comments, especially if you're an F-droid user :)
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wolcen bnvk: neat!
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kylewm what is F-droid?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "F-droid" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KQ
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bnvk hehe, yes
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kylewm (genuine question :)
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bnvk kylewm: should I write the lil update in Wiki or tell you now? :)
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aaronpk ohh bnvk hasn't seen this yet
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aaronpk just say "f-droid is ..."
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bnvk oooooo
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bnvk does it handle URLs and stuff?
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tantek bnvk just answer in English like you would normally
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tantek (don't overhink it ;) )
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aaronpk handle? Just try it ;-) worst case you can edit it later to fix
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tantek s/overhink/overthink
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Loqi tantek meant to say: (don't overthink it ;) )
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bnvk F-droid is a software repository (or "app store") for Android applications. The main repository, hosted by the project, contains only apps which are free software. It works similarly to the Google Play store. Applications can be browsed and installed from the F-Droid website or client app without the need to register for an account. "Anti-features" such as advertising, user tracking, or dependence on non-free software are flagged in app desc
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loqi.me created /F-droid (+473) "prompted by kylewm https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462314162945 and dfn added by bnvk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek hopes bnvk didn't copy paste that from somewhere with copyright :P
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bnvk ah, does it require a "trigger" like kylem question?
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tantek what is Google Play?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Play" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KR
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tantek bnvk, indeed, just saying "x is y" doesn't do anything
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bnvk wonders, *is* Wikipedia copywritten in a way unfavorable?
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tantek yes
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tantek it is not CC0 compat
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tantek please do not just copy/paste from wikipedia
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tantek if you're going to do that, just put the link to the wikipedia page instead
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bnvk yah, was just going to add the link
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aaronpk What is f-droid?
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Loqi F-droid is a software repository (or "app store") for Android applications https://indiewebcamp.com/F-droid
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tantek what is a software repository?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "software repository" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KS
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tantek what is an app store?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "app store" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KT
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bnvk what about posting on IWC with a link back to quoated text not CC-SA compatible?
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tantek bnvk - quoted text is subject to "fair use" - you'll have to figure that one out on your own
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tantek that's a very strange definition
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tantek a repo has very little to do with an app store (in terms of UX etc.)
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tantek so which is it?
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tantek more like Github repo? or more like Apple iTunes?
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bnvk it's both
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bnvk the repo IS like iTunes
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wolcen umm... it's very easy to consider it an app store and a repo
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bnvk hence, the decentralized nature
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tantek bnvk, wolden then why does the Wikipedia definition say OR
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tantek that's confusing
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bnvk and when one installs the client (android app) you cna subscribe to "multiple repos" which are in esscence lil app stores
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aaronpk is this "repository" in the sense of package management?
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bnvk yes, to some degree, AFAIU
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wolcen If you are transitioning away from Google Play Store, it's basically a drop-in replacement.
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bnvk yep
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wolcen except for some of the better features. It helps you find apps, install them, upgrade them, etc.
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tantek what is Google Play Store?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Play Store" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KU
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wolcen I'm not sure about cross-package dependencies...I don't think it does any of that.
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tantek what is package management?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "package management" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KV
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wolcen Google Play Store is google's proprietary source for Android applications.
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loqi.me created /Google_Play_Store (+101) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462314940406 and dfn added by wolcen" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bnvk F-droid has search, install, and upgrades (within the repos you've connected)
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tantek what is a cross-package dependency?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cross-package dependency" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KW
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wolcen lol
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wolcen too many questions.
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tantek we try to keep things fairly user-friendly around here, so whenever someone uses jargon, we try to prompt to get it defined in a way that is generally understandable / accessible
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KevinMarks huh, interesting case for the multilingual text markup discussion: http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2016/05/grammar-is-not-enemy.html
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KevinMarks distinguishing American and British English
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wolcen tantek: I say that in humor, sorry :P
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tantek wolcen, I figured from the lol :)
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wolcen tis a good goal, just comes on funny.
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tantek hopefully entertaining funny and not weird funny ;)
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wolcen makin me giggle anyway. it's good. handy bot.
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wolcen I'm sure it'll wear off now.
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bnvk I suppose "app store" is pretty jargon-y :P
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wolcen Anyway - no other comments re: self-hosting via a phone, eh?
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bnvk or rather, it can prompt a pretty jargon laden conversation
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Loqi [indieweb] "Belated notes from a couple of sessions at #iiw Wednesday - Power Asymmetry and Cheddar: http://www.kevinmarks.com/iiw2016-04-27.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/belated-notes-from-a-couple-of-sessions-at-iiw-wednesday
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Loqi [indieweb] "Too many syndication targets to fit more than one post onscreen at a time #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/too-many-syndication-targets-to-fit-more-than-one-post
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tantek wolcen - I think the selfdogfood feedback you got from aaronpk is the key ;)
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wolcen tantek: lol... I suppose I'm on my own then? Not even a "uh, no wolcen - your wasting your time because X" or "YES! That would work, don't forget to add Y"
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tantek wolcen, sounds like you're on the cutting edge :)
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tantek welcome to the club :D
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bnvk so, do I need to change the text in the page or is adding a WK link acceptable?
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wolcen :D heh...thanks?
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tantek bnvk - definitely change any text you copy/pasted from wikipedia
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tantek and frankly, the wikipedia dfn was quite poor
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tantek as illustrated by the AND/OR confusion
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wolcen cool... well, I'll keep investigating then. It's been percolating a little while - I think it's quite do-able personally. Guess I'll start with testing availability of my phone with DynDNS first off.
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tantek you can of course fix the dfn in BOTH wikis :)
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tantek wolcen, sounds like an excellent thing to add to your "Itches" list
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tantek that way if someone else discovers it later, perhaps they can comment with "don't forget to add Y" or "I want to do that too!"
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tantek wolcen, but first, start with adding yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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tantek bnvk is already in there :)
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Loqi [indieweb] "#IndieWeb Raison d'etre #55: Freedom of the press trumps atrocious comment moderation" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indieweb-raison-detre-55-freedom-of-the-press-trumps-atrocious
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bnvk wolcen: you might also care to checkout http://pagekite.net
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wolcen tantek: will do, ty
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wolcen interesting points as well in welcoming. good deal - will [attempt to] follow protocol :)
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aaronpk wolcen: fwiw i started doing something similar for serving websites off of my laptop. I reverse tunnel from my laptop to tunnlr.xyz and serve sites from my laptop from that domain
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wolcen bnvk: hmm... interesting, thanks!
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tantek what is a reverse tunnel?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reverse tunnel" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KX
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wolcen hehe - ok, hasn't worn off yet.
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aaronpk a reverse tunnel is /reverse_tunneling
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loqi.me created /reverse_tunnel (+30) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462315884980 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk what is reverse tunneling?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reverse tunneling" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KY
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aaronpk reverse tunneling is a technique for making a service that is behind a firewall available at a public address
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loqi.me created /reverse_tunneling (+136) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462316047022 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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wolcen hmm... isn't that really a use case of reverse tunnelling, rather than what it is?
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tantek what is a firewall?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "firewall" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KZ
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tantek what is a public address?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "public address" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10K_
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wolcen what is a public ip address?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "public ip address" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ka
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aaronpk yes, but it's often times better to provide a real use case in the dfn than a technically "perfect" definition
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wolcen pretty sure reverse tunneling is more about having a port on a remote host open a connection to the initiator of the ssh connection, no?
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tantek what is a remote host?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "remote host" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Kb
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tantek what is ssh?
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wolcen well...actually, that's wrong too - it could be connecting anywhere on the initiating side.
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/SSH
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aaronpk which is another reason it's not a good idea to copy wikipedia definitions to our wiki
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tantek.com edited /SSH (+36) "fix dfn" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /telnet (+139) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich #IndieWeb Raison d'etre #55: Freedom of the press trumps atrocious comment moderation: http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indieweb-raison-detre-55-freedom-of-the-press-trumps-atrocious (twitter.com/_/status/727630183335792640)
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tantek.com edited /SSH (+33) "linky, see also" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /F-droid (+827) (view diff)
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bnvk there you go, updated
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loqi.me created /telnet_protocol (+272) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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bnvk and how bedtime, as it's 1 AM here :P
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tantek is it F-droid or F-Droid?
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wolcen bnvk: 'night!
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wolcen F-Droid
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loqi.me created /remote_server (+110) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /F-droid to /F-Droid "canonical cap"
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aaronpk bear++
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Loqi bear has 130 karma
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tantek.com edited /F-Droid (+0) "F-Droid canonical cap" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Google_play_music (-160) "duplicate pages, redirect" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /TCP (+271) "prompted by bear and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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wolcen karma too? Loqi bot has skillz :)
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loqi.me created /IP (+278) "prompted by bear and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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wolcen hehehe. the tumblr conversations are great. :)
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wolcen ...clearly, I may be considered by many "easily amused"
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gregorlove.com edited /Google_Play_Store (+8) "wikilinks" (view diff)
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bear.im created /TCP/IP (+239) "create entry" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /TCP (+40) "add see-also" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /IP (+20) "add see-also" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /F-Droid (+32) "link in dfn, note open source in dfn, fix links at bottom" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /remote_server (+45) "add see-also" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Speaking of confusing link syntax: MediaWiki internal links use a pipe between page name and link text, but external links don't, actually append the pipe to the URL and break it.
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bear.im edited /telnet (+31) "add see-also" (view diff)
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bear wow - tantek sure knows how wiki-snipe me
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tantek gRegorLove: yes that's my one pet peeve the MediaWiki link syntax
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tantek s/peeve/peeve with
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Loqi tantek meant to say: gRegorLove: yes that's my one pet peeve with the MediaWiki link syntax
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@dougmckown Get your loved ones off Facebook http://saintsal.com/facebook/ #indieweb https://twitter.com/dougmckown/status/727635859869044736/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/727635859869044736)
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gregorlove.com created /app_store (+124) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462314672077" (view diff)
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tantek what is a store?
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Loqi A store (or marketplace) is a service for installing applications on a device, typically a mobile client device, but also on web servers, typically remotely https://indiewebcamp.com/store
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gRegorLove Oops
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bear not sure I like that definition - specifically the "on web servers, typically remotely" part
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gregorlove.com edited /app_store (-105) "redirect" (view diff)
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tantek bear - yeah, that got stretched to include installing server "apps" because of what bnvk was pursuing at the time
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tantek IIRC
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bear yea, going to edit it
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tantek I don't know if any of the server store stuff went anywhere
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tantek I think there was brainstorming?
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aaronpk there's a little app store on my synology device for installing apps on it
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tantek bear - bnvk is back now - perhaps ask him first?
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tantek what is synology?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "synology" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Kh
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aaronpk and dreamhost's one-click installs work that way too
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bear.im edited /store (-24) "removed reference to remote web server" (view diff)
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tantek bear ^^^ what do you think of aaronpk's example of dreamhost? does that not count as a remote web server store "experience"?
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aaronpk Synology is a company that makes storage products which allow installation of apps, and can be used as a home web server.
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loqi.me created /Synology (+148) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462317709401 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gregorlove.com edited /store (+41) "/* Client */ +F-Droid" (view diff)
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bear my reasoning is pendantic possibly - dreamhost installes application bundles (code + configurations) into the user space ... it's not installing apps onto a remote web server
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bear a server gets things installed via an application repository
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aaronpk phone apps are installed to user space too though, so i'm not sure that's an important distinction
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[chrisaldrich] GWG are you still around this afternoon?
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tantek I'm having difficulty understanding the distinction bear
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bear an application is normally a binary (code + maybe a config file)
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tantek bear, most "app stores" AFAIK have an "application repository" as part of their backend, you just don't have access to it directly
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bear notes the "pendantic" part of his comment :/
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tantek so like apache is code + maybe a .htaccess file?
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tantek is just trying to understand the pedenaticism from a user perspective
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bear a repository is where the application bundle would be stored, but an app store is the UI to allow for discovery and installation
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bear so an app store will have a repository on the backend but the user doesn't have to know that
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tantek right, so Dreamhost's one-click install UI is an app store example then
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bear plus an app store client can install from other locations (like a local file)
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gregorlove.com edited /F-Droid (+32) "See Also" (view diff)
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bear my issue with "remote web server" is that an app store is more broadly used than just for web servers
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tantek that's not how I read it
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tantek it seemed like an *or*, *including* remote web servers
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tantek not limiting to
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bear k, i'll add it back with some clarifing text
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bear my current thought is "... client device or on a hosted web service."
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tantek bear, what about the IndieBox?
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tantek where it's a server device, but in your own home
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bear thinks
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tantek I believe j12t also had a notion of an app store you would access to "install" "apps" on your IndieBox
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j12t notion? Code!
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tantek j12t, my apologies :)
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bear k, -- "... client device or within a web service (hosted or local)."
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[benatwork] It was fully working, right?
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tantek bear, indiebox was a web server, not a web service per se
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tantek it wasn't a service you paid for, you paid for the server (physical box)
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bear well, that's another layer of turtles
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bear a service doesn't have to be paid
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bear it's a web server running code that performs a service
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tantek would "server device" akin to "client device" make more sense then?
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bear github is a web service
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tantek sorry the payment thing was just a comparison of the two, not a requirement
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bear I have an idea, one sec.
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j12t IMHO, an "app store" has several functions. 1) present available apps 2) allow user to make purchase/install decision, 3) do whatever necessary to deliver app onto device/target, 4) invoice and collect
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j12t Apple etc do more, but that's arguably not a "store" function, such as 5) filter/curate possible listings, 6) update installed apps after the purchase etc
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bear ok, "... and then [[installing]] applications. Applications can reside on a [[mobile]] device, a local device or a remotely hosted web service."
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tantek not counting servers people buy and setup at a colo?
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tantek a remotely hosted web server?
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bear i'll go with server instead of service
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bear that is something that I think about but rarely normal users do
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[benatwork] From a vendor perspective, 6) is completely crucial. You need to be able to update apps seamlessly. Most users won’t. And depending on the vulnerability of the platform, 5) is pretty essential too: you need to be able to yoink out malware.
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j12t benatwork: completely agree, but many so-called "apps stores" don't and most people, even technical ones, don't get that part.
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bear.im edited /store (+281) "current pass at expanding definition" (view diff)
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bear ok, used latest text and also added an example locations section
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[benatwork] j12t: fair point
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j12t drives me nuts, but that's my experience ...
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bear yea, care and feeding of end-user installs is, IMO, the more important part -- anyone can install something, but keeping it up to date... priceless
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j12t Exactly, otherwise the so-called "app store" is just an alias for unzip.
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bear even worse as it layers on a thin veneer of bullshit and makes people think they are safe
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tantek hmm, should a tombstone show when the post was originally published?
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tantek is iterating through hacking up /deleted support, from storage to display code
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j12t bear: in other words, the strategy to win in the market without doing any work :-)
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bear mine do so they get placed into archive/feeds properly
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bear j12t++
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Loqi j12t has 7 karma
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tantek bear, you show tombstones in archives?
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tantek what's the use case for showing tombstones in feeds?
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bear I do because right now my archives are a very blunt list of things in date order
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bear so that a feed reader will see the meta-equiv 410 and act accordingly
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bear because it may have stored a local cached copy
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tantek ok that makes sense
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tantek kylewm: ^^^ does Woodwind support that?
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bear to me it's a more friendly (and useful) way to do what twitter does with a delete event in it's stream
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KartikPrabhu wonders why he has never deleted a post...
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aaronpk twitter pushes delete events out via their streaming API
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KevinMarks do you normally sort by published or updated?
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aaronpk oh boy that's a whole discussion
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bear for me it's always published
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aaronpk same
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bear otherwise your are forcing matching by GUIID or some such
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tantek speaking of updates, really quite annoyed with Apple's Mac App Store. Would you like to restart now or later? How about NO?
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aaronpk except for events, which are sorted by the date of the event
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KevinMarks well, thats for Apple apps that include OS updates
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KevinMarks but it is a bit odd
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tantek so I just keep clicking Later
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tantek annoying
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tantek Apple has turned into nagware
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aaronpk sometimes i click "later" every day until the next update comes out
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snarfed loves the contrast of "anyone can install something, but keeping it up to date... priceless" vs "Would you like to restart now or later? How about NO?"
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aaronpk lol yeah
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KevinMarks keeping it up to date quietly is good
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aaronpk sometimes restarts are required for updates
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tantek if they were able to do so without breaking things as often as they do
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tantek hence don't upgrade unless you have a specific reason to
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KevinMarks the way Chrome updates is good
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KevinMarks as in I don't notice it
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tantek because Apple (and others) have a habit of breaking things, and then making you wait months before they fix it
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KevinMarks except that my TV mac just told me that chrome has deprecated the OS version it's running
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snarfed tantek: interesting tradeoff, avoiding new features/bugs vs staying secure
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tantek KevinMarks: the difference with Chrome, Firefox etc. is that when they break things in an update, they fix it within days if not hours
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bear yea, Apple OS updates is why I always have one laptop on version - 1
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KevinMarks also they have the continually running multiple trains model
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tantek snarfed, why would I trust a vendor's word with "secure" when they can't even not break "normal" functionality?
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KevinMarks Apple is more bound to new devices
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tantek snarfed, in short, I don't trust that Apple hasn't introduce MORE security bugs in any given update
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tantek compared to the current version
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KevinMarks Google Play Services is an interesting model too
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snarfed tantek: but they patch the ones that are known and publicized, which is a big difference, since those are qualitatively more likely to be exploited and get you owned
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snarfed normally i'd say, you're an adult, if you want to preserve functionality at the risk of getting owned, that's your business
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tantek snarfed, sure, so I do tend to do the surgical security updates more often than every other itunes, safari, etc. update
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KevinMarks in that they realised they couldn't patch the underlyin OS reliably, so wrapped up functionality there, and in the compatibility library for new apis
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snarfed ...but security is a (tragedy of the) commons. the more owned boxes out there, the less secure the internet is for everyone
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snarfed tantek: oh sure. i'm mostly thinking of the OS and browser updates. the rest meh
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tantek the meh is what apple bugs me about. updating half dozen of their "Apps" that I've never even RUN
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tantek if I could disable / delete GarageBand, Keynote, Numbers, Pages, iPhoto, I would
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tantek maybe I should just wait for the EU to sue Apple for all the forced app bundling nonsense the way they are suing Google for Android force app bundling nonsense
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aaronpk aw but garageband is fun
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aaronpk also why does keynote keep switching between being $19 and being free?
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tantek also beware of "FREE UPGRADE"
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tantek "OSX El Capitan / A refined experience an improved performance for your Mac." [CITATION NEEDED]
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tantek improved performance yeah right
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aaronpk eh, it's been fine for me
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KevinMarks improved performance = "we fixed the network bugs we introduced before'
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tantek.com edited /🌐 (-9) "world is more like other languages" (view diff)