#indiewebcamp 2016-05-04

2016-05-04 UTC
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Loqi
[indieweb] "IndieWeb and Android Mobile
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kylewm
wow Github multi-reply ^
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kylewm
which ben is benatwork?
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[benatwork]
I come from a land down under
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[benatwork]
It’s benwerd. I messed up my Slack bridge setup.
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[benatwork]
(Did that song make it to the US, or was that yet another dead reference?)
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kylewm
is sad he did not get the joke
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tantek
(so good)
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bear
chuckles at a song reference that he actually got
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[shaners]
benwerd: That song is one of like 6 points of reference that Americans™ have about .au
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kylewm
tantek: woodwind does not support deletes because it only fetches the h-feed, not the individual permalinks
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[benatwork]
Are the others putting steaks on the barbie, Crocodile Dundee, Mad Max, Kylie Minogue, The Rescuers Down Under and Outback Steakhouse?
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tantek
so what happens if something disappears from a refetch of the h-feed? do you dump the previous cache?
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[benatwork]
British people get to add soap operas to those.
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[shaners]
Basically
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tantek
benatwork, *shrimps* on the barbie
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[benatwork]
shrimps makes sense
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[benatwork]
is that a sentence
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kylewm
tantek: no it does not remove items that disappear from the feed
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tantek
kylewm: so how do we make that work?
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tantek
presumably it should
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kylewm
I think that's why we talked at length about dt-deleted
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tantek
kylewm if you saw a dt-deleted, would you check the date and time to automatically hide the post when the dt-deleted time has passed? even without refreshing?
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tantek
that way a reader could respect an expired post too
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kylewm
I guess? It would definitely be more work than just yes/no
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tantek
accidentally implements indie snapchat
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gRegorLove
Hmm, future-scheduled deletes. Interesting.
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gRegorLove
"This post will self-destruct in..."
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tantek
gRegorLove: AKA
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tantek
what is expriring?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "expriring" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ki
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tantek
what is expiring?
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Loqi
Expiring content is content that is only temporarily (ephemerally) relevant, and also part of a larger post, that can and should be (preferably automatically) removed once a particular datetime has passed (the expiration date) https://indiewebcamp.com/expiring
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gRegorLove
Who tanteks the tantekers?
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tantek
The typoers
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gRegorLove
What is Snapchat?
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Loqi
Snapchat is an ephemeral-photo hosting silo where users post photos to their friends, which are viewable for a limited number of seconds, sometimes a few times https://indiewebcamp.com/Snapchat
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kylewm
can someone explain to me what celebrities do on snapchat?
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kylewm
that is the part of that equation i can't get my head around
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[benatwork]
They broadcast
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gRegorLove
Can someone explain Snapchat?
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[benatwork]
There are very well-subscribed channels
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gRegorLove
feels old sometimes. :)
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[benatwork]
It’s a lot like TV
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[benatwork]
Snapchat started as person-to-person ephemeral messages but now it’s more like shows: you broadcast video to your channel and lots of people can watch it. It still goes away so they need to watch the next show.
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[benatwork]
Both Democratic presidential candidates have a Snapchat channel.
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kylewm
who's a good person to follow? :)
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[benatwork]
Looking at my list, the three people who have updated their channels today are Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton .. and Evan Promodou
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[benatwork]
(One of those is not like the other)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Watched: OSB 2015 - Micropub: The Emerging API Standard for IndieWeb Apps - Aaron Parecki - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM1Y85zKZbQ" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/watched-osb-2015---micropub-the-emerging-api-standard-for
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gRegorLove
Snapchat is app-only, right, no web component?
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[benatwork]
correct
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gregorlove.com
edited /Snapchat (+28) "link"
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kylewm
goes to snapchat something, probably cat related
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kylewm
accidentally records his phone vibrating which is SUPER LOUD
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[kevinmarks]
Kyle's issue is the point of CTHULU
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[kevinmarks]
Put the tombstone in the feed. Though that does likely mean you need to preserve the slug
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KartikPrabhu
what is CTHULU
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CTHULU" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Kk
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Watched: Tantek Celik, "Why We Need the IndieWeb", #PDF14 - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNmKO7Gr4TE" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/watched-tantek-celik-why-we-need-the-indieweb-pdf14
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[kevinmarks]
CTHULU is Create, Tombstone, Hide, Unhide, List, Update.
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loqi.me
created /CTHULU (+83) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-03/line/1462329081843 and dfn added by [kevinmarks]"
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[kevinmarks]
Sounds like tantek is implementing it
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bear
hmm, I just need to implement hide/unhide
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tantek
I don't understand the hide/unhide parts
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[kevinmarks]
You make the post into a tombstone, then send out push, wait for crawl
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[kevinmarks]
Then after an interval hide it from the feed
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[kevinmarks]
Unhide is the undo delete step
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tantek
after an interval everything falls off the feed anyway right?
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tantek
kevinmarks do you know if Atom has a way of indicating deleted posts explicitly?
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tantek
(looking for prior art)
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@ChrisAldrich
"Building a Better Web" IndieWeb Ad - SquareSpace Parody https://www.youtube.com/
(twtr.io/1CCV2F6RDfG)
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[kevinmarks]
Not directly but I think gdata did
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kylewm
tantek: discussion of Atom's deleted-entry here https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/39
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mblaney
hi, we talked a bit about deleted posts in feeds recently: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-16#t1458174355843
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[kevinmarks]
The next section in that book is "Why doesn't everyone use atompub?"
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mblaney
sorry after re-reading most of the logs on the day mentioned above, I realize there's still the problem of tombstone posts appearing in feeds.
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mblaney
so there needs to be a standard way to recognize a deleted post.
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mblaney
(in a feed)
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mblaney
p.s. I've never heard of The Rescuers Down Under OR Outback Steakhouse :-P
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tantek
just skimmed rfc6721, seems a bit overdesigned.
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tantek
really don't need a whole another namespace, element, and such
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on Some Thoughts on Academic Publishing and “Who’s downloading pirated papers? Everyone” from Science | AAAS by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich http://boffosocko.com/2016/04/29/some-thoughts-on-academic-publishing/#comment-30448
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tantek
mblaney: agreed. and recommended publisher behavior that does at least something for backcompat with readers that don't support delete
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tantek
we can do that by adding a property as has been suggested before like dt-deleted or u-deleted
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GWG
Evening
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kylewm
benwerd: mblaney: he forgot Fosters
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tantek
and G'day Mate
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mblaney
we don't drink Fosters either ;-)
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mblaney
tantek: I think I agree with the need for dt-deleted or u-deleted more now...
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mblaney
one other idea, a zero-new-markup option would be to have empty p-name and e-content, which implies a deleted post.
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[kevinmarks]
It makes sense in the feed especially. A 410 on the standalone post is clear, but knowing to remove it from the feed is key.
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mblaney
but any of these would be bonza. yew bewty!!
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mblaney
my current criteria for replacing an item in a feed is just that the permalink matches (and obviously an old item would need to be reinstated to the feed).
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tantek
mblaney how do you allow for redirects?
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mblaney
tantek do you mean in terms of the permalink changing? that would create a new item in my feed.
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GWG
Does anyone have an example of a webmention source verification function that uses per-media-type rules as opposed to a pure text search?
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tantek
mblaney yes, like dropping the slug since it often has content
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mblaney
I should probably support matching id's in preference to permalinks, but there's no concept of id's in microformats is there?
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mblaney
yeah or nah Loqi?
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Loqi
who, me?
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mblaney
aaah yes there is: u-uid
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tantek
interesting, I could have a u-uid of the post without the slug, and the u-url permalink with the slug
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tantek
so when I deleted the post I would redirect the u-url permalink to the u-uid
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tantek
but either way a reader would always see the same u-uid for the post
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mblaney
that sounds good.
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[kevinmarks]
That works for your url scheme, not sure if it does for everyone
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mblaney
kevinmarks without either a consistent permalink or uid I'm not sure how else readers can match deleted posts.
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gRegorLove
Anyone have an implicit h-feed -- a stream with multiple h-entry but no h-feed mf2?
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bear
I don't, added h-feed recently
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tantek
KevinMarks: the /deleted use-case is another reason for not making slugs a required part of a permalink /URL_design
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mblaney
gRegorLove I just have h-entry's
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gRegorLove
Great! I'm running some tests with a feed parser
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bear
yea, I need to figure out how to redirect uid's to slugs and back for a static site
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bear
oh poo, typed that and realized that I can just have uid files with a meta http-equiv redirect
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bear
what is u-uid
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "u-uid" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Kn
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@mericalleja
RT @davilera ¿Habéis visto la última entrada de @ruthraventos? Aprendiendo cosas de #WordPress con ella http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/
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rMdes
finally solved my dreamhost issue not forcing HTTPS :)
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@wprincipiante
Ayer te explicamos lo que son los #trackbacks, #linkbacks y #webmentions en #WordPres y sus diferencias 🎓 http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/
(twtr.io/1CDAqk2p09c)
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bnvk
definitely a tad bit of support for IWC stack on F-Droid https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroidclient/issues/646
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jansauer.de
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+132) "/* Participants */"
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sknebel
aaronpk: on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc the calendar for the chat logs goes all the way back to 2011 for me, the source looks like it is supposed be limited to 6 months instead?
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /IRC (+279) "/* Cross-platform */ Added Quassel"
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /IRC (-125) "/* Cross-platform */ shortened quassel description"
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kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+105) "/* Itches */ preserve timezones on reply contexts and received comments rather than converting everything to P[SD]T"
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@veganstraightedge
RT @aaronpk Registration for IndieWeb Summit is open! http://2016.indieweb.org Pretty thrilled to be doing this for the 6th year in PDX!
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kylewm
heh, noticed "rsvping" on the wiki. good name for indie rsvps
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@HongPong
For better less corporate-rekt internets Portland OR peeps plz check #indieweb summit June 3-5 2016 http://2016.indieweb.org cc @rechelon
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[kevinmarks]
RSV ping?
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kylewm
hehe yep
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Hans, I've got the same issue of being marked "pending" and sadly those only show up in your own feed on Disqus. I typically post" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/hans-ive-got-the-same-issue-of-being-marked-pending
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@veganstraightedge
Geocities Forever. A sad shadow of what Geocities once was. #indieweb #sitedeaths http://www.geocitiesforever.com
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boffosocko.com
edited /Monocle (+166) "Monocle offline; link to other readers"
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calumryan
Any home-brewing tonight in Brighton?
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Loqi
calumryan: tantek left you a message on 4/6 at 10:58am: did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459965493893
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@veganstraightedge
Waybackpack: CLI to download the entire Wayback Machine archive for a given URL. #indieweb https://github.com/jsvine/waybackpack
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KevinMarks
yes, it's on
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KevinMarks
" In some cases, you might truly have an object that the HTML spec, ARIA, and microformats all never accounted for." http://alistapart.com/article/meaningful-css-style-like-you-mean-it
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Loqi
[Tim Baxter] Meaningful CSS: Style Like You Mean It
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KevinMarks
Interesting as it is implying that styling microformat classes makes sense, whereas we have avoided that somewhat
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KevinMarks
also, I don't know enough about ARIA
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tantek
KevinMarks, no we have not avoided "styling microformat classes", we started with that approach, and then over time learned that that actually harms indepednent maintainability of form/content vs style/presentation.
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tantek
We *now* recommend avoiding directly styling microformats class names due to that longterm real world experience.
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[shaners]
tantek are the issues experienced documented somewhere?
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tantek
pretty sure I captured a bunch on the microformats wiki
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tantek
I mean that ^^^ is a pretty good summary of the biggest issue
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tantek
I'll restate to be clearer: styling microformat directly classes actually harms (makes it much harder to keep) independent maintainability of form/content vs style/presentation, which ends up causing the microformats to break, or the presentation to break when you change just one or the other, which can happen easily in larger teams where different people work on different pieces.
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tantek
so the one obvious exception is when you're just doing a one-off site that you don't expect to change (the content and/or presentation of)
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@derSchepp
@oliverlindberg Yes, seen that! I planned to hang around at Sipgate. I registered for the Indiewebcamp but since I can only attend on...
(twtr.io/1CDvb1eiaYG)
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[shaners]
tantek: sounds like a team size / communication problem, not a technical
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[shaners]
s/not a technical/not a technical one/
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Loqi
[shaners] meant to say: tantek: sounds like a team size / communication problem, not a technical one
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tantek
shaners - I have had this problem with a team size of 1
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tantek
but you're right that team size makes it worse
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[shaners]
You are an Enterprise™ of one :stuck_out_tongue:
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tantek
:sadface:
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aaronpk
i have also experienced it with just myself
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KevinMarks
I certainly experienced it when adding mf1 calsses to projects, and having them removed later because nothing was styling them
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KevinMarks
though the real answer there is to add a parse and validate test tot he project
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[kevinmarks]
I'm assuming mf2 style is more clearly distinct
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GWG
I need some design advice
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aaronpk
wow it's amazing
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aaronpk
now i don't have to hesitate to open twitter.com links anymore
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GWG
I have been working on the Webmentions plugin and Pingbacks in WordPress Core because of a common problem
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GWG
Without Mf parsing, what should a pingback or webmention display as content?
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tantek
what is Quassel?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Quassel" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ko
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tantek
GWG, pingback, undefined. Webmention? I'd say nothing.
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tantek
If someone is implementing webmention, they should also be publishing microformats2.
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tantek
if not, it's effectively an error, and better to let them know about it, and encourage them to fix it
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GWG
pfefferle solve this with the text, "This was mentioned on example.com
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tantek
sure you could do that too. maybe even with "Want your comment and author credit to show up? Use Indiewebify.me to validate your microformats"
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tantek
sknebel: ^^^ re: what is Quassel
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GWG
I am wondering if I should propose that the This was mentioned text replace the existing pingback text in WordPress Core
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tantek
GWG better to use the active voice too
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tantek
"Example.com mentioned this."
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GWG
The existing is the [...]
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tantek
right, that's nearly uselesss / always noisy
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tantek
and a lazy legacy from TrackBack
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kylewm
whoa, I did not expect them to ever change mobile.twitter.com
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GWG
My proposal is that it shows the human note, and that can be enhanced by the other changes I am making.
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tantek
kylewm: what did they do?
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kylewm
it is very js;dr now
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kylewm
and looks just like the android app
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tantek
kylewm: oh dear that's too bad
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aaronpk
it's still much lighter weight than main twitter.com
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kylewm
the situation before was the mobile site hadn't been updated in years, didn't show images, polls, etc.
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[kevinmarks]
There are different presentation styles appropriate for note and article posts
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tantek
re: ???
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[kevinmarks]
Webmentions
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aaronpk
iirc that's documented on /comments-presentation
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tantek
sure, and that assumes microformats also. GWG was asking about some sort of default in the absence thereof.
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[kevinmarks]
The pingback default was based on the assumption of long posts
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GWG
I am trying to get php-mf2 into WordPress as part of the SimplePie update
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tantek
how easy is it to update it with bug fixes once you get it in?
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GWG
So, I am trying to work on different fronts
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GWG
tantek, ticket in each version release.
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GWG
Unit ye
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GWG
tests
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tantek
GWG cool.
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GWG
If not, then it continues to make sense to make microformats a plugin
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GWG
That is why I am working on improving the Pingback handler to work nicer with plugins
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GWG
At the same time I am trying to mirror those changes in the existing plugin code
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GWG
If I fail, no one will say that I didn't try
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GWG
They are working on early tickets for WordPress 4.6, so this is a good time to try and get eyes on patches.
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tantek
snarfed, FYI, economic reason NOT to upgrade your OS(X) - because doing so makes your computer not work with your printer that you paid for.
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tantek
"Free Update" is actually a lie. It's a "Assett loss update" since you can no longer use an assett you purchased.
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KevinMarks
it's This Week in Google time
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KevinMarks
send me you suggestions
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tantek
KevinMarks - Micropub has multiple interoperable clients for Creating, Deleting, Updating posts
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tantek
see the latest W3C Working Draft, published *today*, at https://w3.org/TR/micropub
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gRegorLove
GWG: WordPress includes SimplePie?
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GWG
Bundled in
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gRegorLove
SimplePie 1.4 already parses mf2 then
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GWG
I proposed an update to 1.4 for the h-feed parsing
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GWG
gRegorLove, only if you also bundle php-mf2
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hongpong
i thought simplepie was abandonware
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GWG
New maintainer
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gRegorLove
hongpong: Nope, our own mblaney has been making lots of updates!
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hongpong
cool that is good to hear gregorlove
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gRegorLove
What is SimplePie?
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Loqi
SimplePie is a feed parser library written in PHP, which supports h-feed parsing as of version 1.4 https://indiewebcamp.com/SimplePie
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[benatwork]
Would simplepie with mf2 mean that feedwordpress reads h-feeds? I’d imagine so. And that’s used in far more places than you’d think.
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GWG
gRegorLove, ironically, I think the old maintainers were WordPress people
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gRegorLove
I'm surprised SimplePie is in WP. A bit unfortunate that php-mf2 has to be included separately with SimplePie though
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GWG
It would make a lot possible.
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GWG
I will defer to mblaney on that
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gRegorLove
I'm working on a PR to add h-feed parsing to picoFeed
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gRegorLove
What is picoFeed?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "picoFeed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Kp
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gRegorLove
picoFeed is a PHP library to parse and write feeds https://github.com/fguillot/picoFeed
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loqi.me
created /picoFeed (+114) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-04/line/1462393829661 and dfn added by gRegorLove"
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aaronpk
all this talk of h-feed parsing makes me nervous
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aaronpk
the bit of work i did on that for Monocle and a couple other small things made it really obvious how much variation there is in the way people publish h-feeds or lists of h-entrys
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GWG
aaronpk, did you document that?
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aaronpk
it would be good to collect these into a test suite, since otherwise each implementation is going to only successfully handle a subset of feeds
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gregorlove.com
edited /picoFeed (+246) "link, mf support, see also"
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aaronpk
i've started to collect tests in XRay that capture those
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KevinMarks
sounds like feeds to me
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aaronpk
but feed parsing in XRay is not complete
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KevinMarks
universal feedparser has thousands of tests
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aaronpk
right. but hearing someone say "I added h-feed parsing to X" makes me nervous because there isn't an actual definition of what an h-feed is
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KevinMarks
there's at least as much a defintion as there is for RSS
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KevinMarks
morons and assholes all the way down
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aaronpk
one of the issues is determining the author of a post in a feed
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aaronpk
the other is how to determine whether a list of h-entrys is actually a feed or not
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KevinMarks
if there isn't a feed-level author?
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KevinMarks
we found the other day that atom is worse than h-feed for authorship
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aaronpk
there could be a per-post author, a feed-level author, or if there is no h-feed and only a list of h-entrys, then there might be a sibling h-card that is the author
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gRegorLove
Based on what I've done with picoFeed so far, I think I'm content to just use the domain name as the fallback author if there is no h-entry author or h-feed author
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aaronpk
gRegorLove: how does picofeed handle my site?
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KevinMarks
because you can't specify a photo at post level in atom
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gRegorLove
aaronpk: Don't know, I'll try it out.
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gRegorLove
I haven't fully implemented /authorship on it yet
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aaronpk
i'm guessing it will fail pretty bad because I 1) don't have a top-level h-feed, and 2) am step 7 on /authorship
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gRegorLove
I've got it parsing implicit h-feeds, so that part isn't a problem.
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gRegorLove
But yeah, author would probably be blank currently.
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KevinMarks
I don't have post level author at kevinmarks.com
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gRegorLove
Cool. More tests for me!
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KevinMarks
and most of my post pages don't have one
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@HongPong
http://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ new Micropub working draft spec released by W3C covers open API standard to create posts, notes photos #indieweb
(twtr.io/1CE4avFbCwZ)
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gRegorLove
Ok, picoFeed gets the authorship correct for aaronpk now
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gRegorLove
Next thing I'm thinking about is parsing the language of an h-feed. Guessing that's going to be tricky.
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tantek
gRegorLove: does picofeed implement all of /authorship then?
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gRegorLove
tantek: Not yet. I'm working on it
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gRegorLove
It should be easy to add everything except for #4 since I can mostly use the code I wrote for ProcessWire Webmention
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gRegorLove
This also depends on the project accepting my PR. They seemed open to the idea, though.
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tantek
what is picofeed?
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Loqi
picoFeed is a PHP library to parse and write feeds, used in Miniflux https://indiewebcamp.com/picoFeed
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tantek
what is Miniflux?
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Loqi
Miniflux is minimalist feed reader software https://indiewebcamp.com/Miniflux
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gRegorLove
I think Spotify and Pandora (probably others) have been doing similar
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[shaners]
aaronpk tantek et al: Any idea how / where the current IWC logo is licensed?
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[benatwork]
KevinMarks: the sooner someone topples the iTunes podcast db the better
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aaronpk
IIRC it's CC0 by virtue of being uploaded to the wiki directly
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aaronpk
would be good to make that explicit on /logo
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[shaners]
aaronpk: That’s certainly implied. But unless Crystal uploaded it to the wiki, it’s technically *not* CC0.
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[shaners]
By implicit copyright applied at the time of creation
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[shaners]
aaronpk: Can you ping Beasley to see if she has any of the original authoring files for the logo. For posterity.
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aaronpk
i believe the svg on the wiki is the closest thing we have to the source
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Loqi
svg has 8 karma
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gRegorLove
FB messaging is so weird to me. The whole adding to conversation / leaving conversation stuff
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tantek
messenger groups?
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gRegorLove
I guess. The buttons refer to them as conversations.
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gRegorLove
I got invited to one apparently after it started, so can't see the original comments, just everyone being excited about something.
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gRegorLove
And I'm one of 60 people. It's like an annoying reply-all email thread, but I have no context.
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gRegorLove
"invited". It's just added -- auto-subscribed
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tantek
haha yeah more like "added"
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gRegorLove
Maybe these things work better on the apps; I've never tried them. I find the web version a clumsy interface
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tantek
as far as webchat UIs go, I've been pretty impressed
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tantek
it has the whole (...) typing indicator and everything
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gRegorLove
Ah, I don't use the chat
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gRegorLove
It's just another inbox for me to forget about, basically :)
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tantek
it's the same thing
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tantek
chat / messenger
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gRegorLove
Just discovered a message from December.
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gRegorLove
I have "Chat (Off)" in the lower right, a collapses popover
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gRegorLove
s/collapses/collapsed/
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Loqi
gRegorLove meant to say: I have "Chat (Off)" in the lower right, a collapsed popover
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tantek
ah ok - if you turn that on, it becomes a realtime UI to the same messages
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tantek
it's not a separate thing
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tantek
60 person chats are not very useful
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tantek
I usually leave those very quickly
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gRegorLove
I think I've seen the ... indicator you're referring to in messages, if we both happen to be on at the same time.
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tantek
unless they're have a very specific topic (e.g. #indiewebcamp :) )
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tantek
the FB Messenger iOS mobile app is pretty slick too. it launches very quickly (e.g. compared to Gtalk, Skype), is fairly responsive, and lets you make audio/video *calls*