#indiewebcamp 2016-06-23

2016-06-23 UTC
#
aaronpk this should look better for Loqi too now https://jkphl.is/slides/ihdnue2016-en/
#
Loqi [Joschi Kuphal] IndieWeb
#
EileenK I can write in html... but I've got almost 350 pages... and the thing is growing.
#
EileenK How do you link your page to your name?
#
tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (+491) "note that this page and the proposals therein were all done after discussions & consensus at the IndieWeb Summit and the subsequent strong +1ing of that consensus by the community" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove Welcome, EileenK!
#
aaronpk EileenK: that's done with microformats2, by putting an h-card on your home page
#
EileenK Also, I've buit a couple of pages from scratch recently and realized, I have no idea what a modern (2016) home page should look like. Zero... I know the ones we used to build that I used to complain about and improve.
#
EileenK OK, I'll write that down and look it up.
#
gRegorLove Nice thing is it can look however you want it to :)
#
EileenK They took away our facstaff server at work, and gave us EduBlogs instead.
#
EileenK Yeah, but what works best. I use a rogue page as a Do-List at work http://tacheiru.us/vita/dingdong.html
#
EileenK We have so much more to work with in 2016 than we did in 2002.
#
gRegorLove This is interesting: https://thelocalyarn.com/excursus/secretary/posts/web-books.html Uses Pollen (not familiar) to generate the HTML and PDF versions from the same text. Link at the top tot he PDF as well as Pollen source.
#
EileenK Then there is http://tacheiru.us/vita/facstaffehk.html which replaced the old Facstaff page.
#
tantek EileenK: re: "no idea what a modern (2016) home page should look like." we have some ideas, but could use more! indiewebcamp.com/homepage
#
EileenK Well I miss the silver age of the early aughts. Even if the pages were badly laid out (too much dead space and too much center aligning and unnecessary nesting of tables) they were still rich and pretty.
#
tantek EileenK: do you mean like the "about.me" look?
#
EileenK I mean like what people used to make with web sets.
#
www.svenknebel.de edited /PeARS (-89) "delete request - after looking into the project in more detail, not ready yet" (view diff)
#
EileenK I mean something like this.... http://ghphotography.org/
#
EileenK This is another classic: http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/myhavenoflove/
[kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks] Mine still look like that after seeing kevinmarks.com someone asked me if the CSS hadn't loaded
#
EileenK With a little good table, code those pages could be A LOT better. Ironically css nests like those tables.
#
EileenK I got so I could make a single flat table that had a border.
leg joined the channel
#
EileenK Hello Leg
#
leg hi.
#
[kevinmarks] With flexbox you can do table-like things that cope with smaller screes and wider ones better
#
gRegorLove I was just reminded of The Site Fights and decided to do some Googling. Ended up finding pages on your site, EileenK. Small google world :)
wolftune and sivoais joined the channel
#
gRegorLove aaronpk: https://indiewebcamp.com/favicon.ico isn't resolving to an icon
#
aaronpk Has it ever?
#
gRegorLove I imagine so. I'm seeing an icon; guessing it's cached.
#
gRegorLove It looks like the old logo's "W"
#
gRegorLove Not sure how to uncache it, even when I turn off caching in devtools
#
gRegorLove favicon.ico is linked in the HTML that's why I mentioned it. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFavicon
#
aaronpk Huh I don't remember doing that and I don't think I see it on mine
#
aaronpk i bet the new skin changed it tho
#
gregorlove.com edited /2016/MIT/Schedule (+24) "/* Monday March 14, 2016 */ linked orphan /2016/MIT/installers" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /2016/Schedule (+27) "/* Saturday 2016-06-04 */ linked orphan /2016/state-of-indieweb" (view diff)
#
GWG Evening
emmak and Ruxton joined the channel
#
aaronpk ponders an "uptime" display on aaronparecki.com showing how long he has been awake
#
Ruxton what are you tracking downtime with?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you tracking downtime with" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10NV
#
aaronpk the cheap jawbone UP
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-132) "/* Details */ there is no "default" assumption to be made about web interface URLs since the current URL does not include the channel name" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+521) "/* where to put bookmark aggregator */" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+652) "/* chat subdirectory */ move details per channel" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb.org (+156) "/* indieweb.org */ provide more detail on custom index.php page" (view diff)
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+242) "/* where to put newsletter */ ==== consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com ====" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+316) "/* docs subdomain */" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+346) "/* where to put IRC logs */ add my votes" (view diff)
#
aaronpk gRegorLove: this-week is not an email archive of news.indiewebcamp.com
#
aaronpk it includes new submissions to news.indiewebcamp.com among other things
#
gRegorLove Not *just*, yes.
#
aaronpk i don't see how to fit the newsletter archives into the indienews site
#
aaronpk maybe add some more details on what you're envisioning?
#
gRegorLove Sure
#
aaronpk actually...that could tie in with an alternate proposal i'm about to post
#
aaronpk ah crap
#
aaronpk restarted my computer and my multiple clipboard app didn't launch and now i lost my copy+paste buffer
#
Loqi uhoh
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+540) "/* consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com */ expand/clarify pros/cons" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove I guess i see a lot of overlap between the two, though maybe for those outside the community they'd be interested in just IndieNews sans all our wiki stuff.
#
aaronpk interesting. i see them as totally different things.
#
gRegorLove Not suggesting the presentation of IndieNews change in any major way, though.
#
gRegorLove I wonder if https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TitleBlacklist could be used to block certain wiki names to reserve them for actual subdirectories
#
aaronpk heh but how do we know what subdirectories we will want?
#
gRegorLove Well, I mean if we choose ones in this disussion, like /chat
#
aaronpk oh, well even if there is a wiki page there the files will overrule it
#
gRegorLove But yeah, who knows going forward.
#
gRegorLove namespaces! jk
#
aaronpk what's really complicated is on disk the wiki is at /wiki but both /wiki and /wiki/ are URLs served by mediawiki
#
gRegorLove I was wondering about that. Read some stuff saying it's a "bad bad idea" to run it on a root domain
#
aaronpk yes
#
aaronpk i learned that long ago
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+1326) "/* where to put bookmark aggregator */ add two more options for news.indiewebcamp.com" (view diff)
#
aaronpk oops that is redundant
#
gRegorLove Interesting. Would it remain in the this-week email then?
#
aaronpk yes still could
#
aaronpk i do like that part about it
#
aaronpk this-week is meant to roll up stuff from lots of other places so i could definitely see adding other sources to the newsletter later
#
gRegorLove Cool
mlncn joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+113) "/* consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com */ change vote" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+435) "/* where to put newsletter */" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove aaonpk: "I feel like things like indieweb.org/chat/dev/2016-06-22 are a bit too long. IMO chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-06-22 looks better." those two are the same length. Typo?
#
aaronpk nope
#
aaronpk the first has an extra path segment
callovarne joined the channel
#
gRegorLove ?
#
aaronpk /chat/dev/>{date} vs just /dev/{date}>
#
gRegorLove They're both 32 characters long
#
aaronpk i will rephrase
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+21) "/* chat subdirectory */ rephrase" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+202) "/* docs subdomain */ vote" (view diff)
#
aaronpk is that clearer?
#
gRegorLove Gotcha. Sorry I was being too literal, heh
mlncn_ joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+79) "/* chat subdirectory */ vote" (view diff)
#
aaronpk jeez the wiki does not work well for simultaneously editing the same page :P
#
gRegorLove Oops
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+104) "/* where to put newsletter */ add my opinions" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove New brainstorming section: Replace MediaWiki :D
#
gRegorLove is done for the evening
#
aaronpk that's what the whole [[indieweb.org]] page is about ;-)
callovarne joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+430) "/* where to put bookmark aggregator */ my opinions" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+52) "/* More Brainstorming */" (view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+641) "add slack URL" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb.org () "(-1793) removed proposals that are now better documented and voted on at [[rename_to_IndieWeb]]" (view diff)
#
aaronpk would appreciate everyone else (especially those who already voted on this page) to chime in on these issues. we need to make a decision on this sooner rather than later in order to do the switch on July 4th! https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+13) "/* Votes */" (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+142) "/* chat subdomain */" (view diff)
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+122) "/* chat subdirectory */" (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+43) "/* just keep this-week subdirectory */" (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+276) "/* consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com */" (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+8) "/* consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com */" (view diff)
#
GWG Part 2 of my attempt to document some WordPress stuff
#
GWG https://david.shanske.com/2016/06/22/converting-wordpress-themes-microformats-2-part-1/
#
Loqi [David Shanske] Converting WordPress Themes for Microformats 2 – Part 1
snarfed joined the channel
#
colintedford I think subdomains are more clunky/confusing to "regular folks" (well, those who pay any attention to urls). It's like a sentence going in 2 directions at once. Muddles the hierarchy.
#
colintedford ^ my non-leader 2 cents.
leg joined the channel
#
aaronpk It depends on the situation, note some of the subdomain examples Tantek cited there
#
aaronpk but would appreciate specific feedback on the actual things being proposed
wolftune joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+168) "/* docs subdomain */ -1" (view diff)
cweiske joined the channel
#
kylewm are votes minor edits?
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+8) "/* chat subdirectory */" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+71) "/* chat subdomain */ +1" (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+23) "/* chat subdirectory */" (view diff)
#
loqi.me created /Pingpad (+144) "prompted by KevinMarks_ and dfn added by KevinMarks_" (view diff)
goodoo joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-71) "/* chat subdomain */ retracting my vote, I need to think about this some more" (view diff)
tantek joined the channel
#
colintedford.com edited /news (+127) "This Week in the IndieWeb" (view diff)
#
Ruxton Dare i ask, why is there slack and IRC?
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+142) "/* slack subdomain */ -1" (view diff)
#
kylewm what is Slack?
#
Loqi Slack is a closed-source team communication tool similar to IRC but with expanding support for various types of content such as emoji polls, inline images, and attachments https://indiewebcamp.com/Slack
#
KevinMarks_ Ruxton: the slack is a mirror of the irc
#
kylewm Ruxton: see that article^
#
Ruxton vomits "People love Slack HQ"
#
Ruxton :~(
#
kylewm aw, Chloe wrote that, so we leave it alone
#
Ruxton I would've thought Slack goes against the whole ethos of the Indieweb
#
tantek Ruxton - there are many aspects to the ethos. see /Principles
#
Ruxton yeah but #1 "✊ Own your data."
#
tantek being aware / sensitive to / preferring better UX is part of that, as well as appealing to more /Generations of people
#
tantek Ruxton, using Slack is kind of like /PESOS in that regard
#
tantek since even by using Slack, since it is bridged to IRC and we archive that, the community still keeps all the logs even if Slack disappears
#
aaronpk That's also the reason we mirror the slack channel. If slack goes away we still have all the chat logs on our website
#
tantek heh
#
aaronpk jinx
#
Ruxton Slack is gobbling up open chat communities into closed eco-systems, so many opensource projects have moved to slack, imo to their detriment
#
aaronpk I agree with that, and it's unfortunate
#
aaronpk hopefully we set an example of how to coexist
#
colintedford kylewm: I'd say votes are not minor edits.
#
kylewm thanks colintedford
#
colintedford they're substantive (unlike say a typo fix)
#
aaronpk Yeah I usually only use "minor" for typo fixes
#
kylewm what do y'all think of "talk" instead of chat? chat feels too informal to me, already evidenced by confusion #indiechat
#
kylewm with^
#
aaronpk talk implies voice to me
#
Ruxton ^-- also, it means we actually TALK, chat is text, talk is words
#
colintedford I like "talk" better semantically but think "chat" might better communicate "real-time online talking-by-typing" b/c of common usage
#
Ruxton *talk is audible words
#
KevinMarks_ Indienatter
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+213) "/* news subdomain */ +1" (view diff)
#
kylewm y'all must have been really confused by GoogleTalk
#
GWG Google Talk was a good product. I still miss it.
#
snarfed google talk is still alive and well :P
#
tantek Skype chat
#
tantek chat bots
#
kylewm google talk was a soft site-death
#
tantek the archives are still in your gmail
#
tantek so was anything lost?
#
kylewm dead but continues to sort of work
#
tantek Google Talk clients are the only thing that actually died right?
#
snarfed desktop clients?
#
snarfed maybe yeah. and some narrow parts of xmpp interop iirc
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+24) "/* leave it at news.indiewebcamp.com */ -1" (view diff)
#
snarfed but the web client is still fine
#
snarfed and i still happily use gtalk on adium
#
GWG I still use it on Pidgin
#
kylewm libpurple monoculture!
#
kylewm I don't think Google meant to do it, but they couldn't have killed xmpp any more effectively if they tried
#
kylewm get everyone to switch off the various chat services they were using to google, then close the doors behind them
#
snarfed embrace and extend
#
kylewm and it infuriates me that federation still works just enough so you can see people on other networks, but when you try to talk to them it fails invisibly
#
kylewm </rant>
callovarne, AndChat|566325, Pierre-O, cweiske, loic_m and j12t joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Why Microformats" by David Shanske https://david.shanske.com/2016/06/23/why-microformats/
#
GWG Tried to lay that out again.
#
@kevinmarks @brokep you can do both http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/745868080618868736)
#
@kevinmarks @brokep think of it as sending a message of hope to those who don't see the silos they are in. https://newrepublic.com/article/133889/reboot-world #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/745868825640452096)
jihaisse joined the channel
#
cjk101010 morning
colintedford joined the channel
#
colintedford kylewm: A way to avoid the chat / indie(web-)chat confusion might be to change the "chat" in the latter to (eg) "chatter", "offtopic" (or "natter" per KevinMarks). (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-22/line/1466659957936)
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
@jkphl @veganstraightedge Sebastian (@sfeldeu), who made that thing, also blogged about it https://maker.sfeld.eu/fablab/indieweb/2016/06/22/wie-man-ein-beleuchtetes-logo-baut.html (German only) (twitter.com/_/status/745878425181822976)
loic_m joined the channel
#
colintedford !tell kylewm: A way to avoid the chat / #indie(web-)chat confusion might be to change the "chat" in the latter to (eg) "chatter", "offtopic" (or "natter" per KevinMarks). (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-22/line/1466659957936)
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
@voxpelli @brokep Before that happens I hope we have all started supporting @indiewebcamp solutions – Webmentions etc. Should chat about it some day! (twitter.com/_/status/745885937234739200)
mapkyca joined the channel
#
@pgeuder @voxpelli @brokep @indiewebcamp Can "my mom" run that? Or will it exclude people with less tech skills than..eh..you, Pelle? (twitter.com/_/status/745894260990414849)
#
@voxpelli @pgeuder Inclusion is important and it's something that's actively thought about – see eg. http://indiewebcamp.com/generations /cc @brokep (twitter.com/_/status/745895162665111552)
#
@poulpita [indieweb] wanna build a controlled and independant web ? you may use @indiewebcamp building blocks https://indiewebcamp.com/Category:building-blocks (twitter.com/_/status/745896413976997888)
#
@egoexpress Frank Karlitschek (@fkarlitschek) of @nextclouders talks about decentralized web in his #oSC16 keynote. Resonates well with #IndieWeb ideas. (twitter.com/_/status/745897012223152128)
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
@egoexpress @fkarlitschek Regarding your #oSC16 presentation: Did you have a look at Webmention for the like/comment part? Seems the protocols are there (twitter.com/_/status/745899207085654017)
callovarne, arthurspooner, Pierre-O and huguesdk joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case" http://amreldib.com//linkblog/RiseOfIndieWeb
nitot, adactio and j12t joined the channel
#
@barryf @hobbsy Next one is 27th July. Fancy coming along? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/745929860560916481)
#
@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/745934310977454080)
goodoo, wolftune and tantek_ joined the channel
#
tantek_ greetings #indiewebcamp!
#
tantek_ !tell kevinmarks,snarfed,kylewm,benwerd,benatwork,aaronpk,rhiaro The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
friedcell joined the channel
#
rhiaro What is The Long Now?
#
Loqi rhiaro: tantek_ left you a message 1 minute ago: The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466682278926
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "The Long Now" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10NY
#
rhiaro .. Can't find a link to a webpage on that form..
#
cweiske http://longnow.org/about/
#
tantek_ The Long Now is a foundation that focuses on [[longevity]], one of the [[principles]] of the IndieWeb.
#
cweiske you're probably expected to know about longnow when you visit a google docs form
#
cweiske from them
#
rhiaro Requires paid membership to submit, I don't think I'm qualified tantek
#
tantek_ ah drat
#
tantek_ is tempted to sign-up rhiaro for a membership
#
rhiaro Hah, no thanks. Too early in the morning to be agreeing to be signed up for things
j12t, leg, singpolyma, arthurspooner and [tfg4k] joined the channel
#
[tfg4k] Hey guys. Looking for the Wiki entry on federated integration, can i get a hand
#
chawathe.iprocess.firm.in edited /HubZilla (+49) (view diff)
tantek_ joined the channel
#
tantek_ tfg4k "federated integration" sounds like jargon, what's the actual end user problem / scenario you're trying to solve?
mlncn_, Vipul1, petermolnar, goodoo and shiflett joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme Need to let whoever that chawathe.iprocess.firm.in person is to use dfn correctly
shiflett, nitot and jihaisse joined the channel
#
Vipul1 ben_thatmustbeme : that must be me. What's a dfn? How am I related?
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme ah, the wiki edits, you put <dfn></dfn> around the word, not the sentance.
#
ben_thatmustbeme what is HubZilla?
#
Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/HubZilla
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /HubZilla (+0) "correct dfn" (view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme what is HubZilla?
#
Loqi Hubzilla (formerly RedMatrix) is an open source, federated, community web server that started as a fork of Friendica https://indiewebcamp.com/HubZilla
#
Vipul1 I am afraid I didn't put any "dfn"s http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=HubZilla&diff=28939&oldid=28859
#
ben_thatmustbeme I was talking about this change, looks like you undid what aaronpk fixed for me as I had it wrong too. https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=28938&oldid=28912&rcid=28890
#
ben_thatmustbeme i'm guessing accidental since it was probably working off of my edit, not aaron's
#
Vipul1 While looking at history, I must've continued to edit. Sorry. I dare not trifle with things I don't intend to study.
#
ben_thatmustbeme in any case, do you run a HubZilla Hub?
#
Vipul1 I see you've fixed it already, thnx.
#
ben_thatmustbeme no problem
#
Vipul1 For awhile through openshift, as I mentioned yesterday.
#
Vipul1 It has constraints, like url's that can be overcome if one wants to familiarise with it's tooling (PHP, mySQL, ..)
#
Vipul1 *By url's, I meant url mappings
#
Vipul1 Even with static hosting, despite content negotiation, my pages' extensions, .html, .svg show
#
Vipul1 rather than human readable urls
#
Vipul1 & that's not my style, but I am making trade-offs, so when things start paying off, I can keep investing in improving
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /HubZilla (+435) "add h-entry PR notes and current issues" (view diff)
nitot joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme you can always record those concerns on the wiki entry
#
Vipul1 My only issue was, unwillingness to commit to it's tooling (time constraints and all..) meant accepting the rigidness of an out-of-the-box solution, eventually it gets to you.
#
Vipul1 Otherwise, it's very comprehensive, with very active development to meet any shortcomings.
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /HubZilla (+28) "/* Current Issues and Criticisms */ it has its own methods for verifying comments to prevent forgery" (view diff)
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Friendica (+314) "/* IndieWeb Compatibility */ add same issue as HubZilla" (view diff)
#
Vipul1 & it's developers are fairly attentive towards indieweb movement as well.
#
ben_thatmustbeme indeed. My PRs got accepted quite quickly, rather pleased with that
#
Vipul1 HubZilla is more Friendica continued with rebranding emphasizing shift of objective than fork as just another alternative development effort, but I was unable to search & find the exact explanation post for the wiki
#
Vipul1 *for linking with the wiki
#
ben_thatmustbeme well the code-bases have changed enough that they are not the same software anymore, and they have seperate dev communities, so thats still a fork, even if creator is the one who did it
#
Vipul1 i. e. the contributors seem to be the same mostly
#
ben_thatmustbeme looking at the recent commits and PRs I don't really see any overlap really
#
Vipul1 After spending abit more time updating my site, I'll put it in current issues & criticisms to be fair contrasting the 2
#
Vipul1 yea, I had an older release, guess now the devs are better aligned with the respective projects focus.
#
Vipul1 talking about Hubzilla is a moving target..
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
Vipul1 Before deciding to give Hubzilla a go, I looked up conversations around it, rather than PRs though.. so my impression might be somewhat off..
shiflett_ and j12t joined the channel
#
GWG Morning
#
aaronpk Morning
#
Loqi aaronpk: tantek_ left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466682278926
#
GWG I've been trying to do some actual posting over improving my site.
#
GWG Mostly a small series of articles.
#
aaronpk Awesome
#
GWG So, far, on the first one, gregorlove can't reproduce my results though.
j12t and slick joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Launching FrancisCMS onto the IndieWeb" https://sixtwothree.org/posts/launching-franciscms-onto-the-indieweb
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Ten Years of sixtwothree.org" https://sixtwothree.org/posts/ten-years-of-sixtwothree-org
#
GWG I need more people with test WordPress sites.
#
ben_thatmustbeme Morning all
wolftune joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme what is FrancisCMS?
#
Loqi FrancisCMS is an IndieWeb-friendly content management system built with Ruby on Rails https://indiewebcamp.com/FrancisCMS
snarfed, snarfed1 and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Converting WordPress Themes for Microformats 2 #IndieWeb via @Dshanske" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-converting-wordpress-themes-for-microformats-2-indieweb-via
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of David Shanske's tweet: Why Microformats #IndieWeb" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-david-shanskes-tweet-why-microformats-indieweb-de97f66fb2
snarfed, callovarne, goodoo, leg, snarfed1 and hs0ucy joined the channel
#
snarfed RIP PortableContacts, http://portablecontacts.net/ expired and is now "parked"
#
Loqi snarfed: tantek_ left you a message 5 hours, 24 minutes ago: The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466682278926
#
snarfed interesting
friedcell joined the channel
#
snarfed.org edited /Portable_Contacts (+66) "RIP" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu, gRegorLove, AndChat|566325, goodoo, KevinMarks, shiflett, KevinMarks_ and nitot joined the channel
#
@pierreozoux Would be nice ;) #IndieWeb - Webmention support (#19080) · Issues · https://about.gitlab.com/ / GitLab Community… https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2016/would-be-nice-indieweb---webmention-support-19080-issues-gitlaborg (twitter.com/_/status/746037962291417091)
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Would be nice ;) #IndieWeb - Webmention support (#19080) · Issues · GitLab.org / GitLab Community Edition · GitLab https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/19080" by Pierre Ozoux https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2016/would-be-nice-indieweb---webmention-support-19080-issues-gitlaborg
#
aaronpk nice https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/19080
#
Pierre-O ;)
#
Loqi Pierre-O: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 6/1 at 4:23am: all set, you can rejoin that channel now http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-01/line/1464780194712
#
Loqi Pierre-O: tantek left you a message on 6/1 at 10:55am: re: holacracy. Nope. Not a *community*, nor any actual evidence of *success* (more self-asserted marketing claims). That is however a typical example of the current fashion of sexy product site with big blocks of different color background you scroll through to approximate pages. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-01/line/1464803706264
#
snarfed aaronpk: just fyi i started a wm implemention report for bridgy, but it's awkward to make it talk to wm.rocks, for obvious reasons, and that looks like most of the content...so...not sure
#
aaronpk hmm tricky
#
snarfed you already have it on the implementation list, so maybe that's enough for now
#
aaronpk you could make a facebook post that links to all the webmention.rocks tests right?
gavinc joined the channel
#
snarfed sure
#
aaronpk would still love an impl report from bridgy, since it's important to know the details of which parts of the spec it implements in order to progress to the next step in w3c
#
snarfed understood
#
aaronpk would webmention.rocks need to "sign up" for bridgy in order to be able to test it?
#
snarfed nah, bridgy doesn't require bidirectional rel-me
#
aaronpk i do have a twitter account https://twitter.com/webmentionrocks
#
snarfed but yes that'd be one easy way!
#
aaronpk happy to sign up and tweet something if you let me know what i need to do
#
snarfed twitter would be more work than fb to link to all tests though :P, unless you want to make a dedicated page with synd links
#
snarfed i think i can do Fb pretty easily. i'll try
#
snarfed well that's sad, all 21 failed. https://brid.gy/facebook/1407574399567467#responses
#
aaronpk whaaat
#
aaronpk they aren't *all* tricky tests
#
snarfed heh, it used the cached failure after the first one
#
snarfed i'll debug more later
#
aaronpk ah
goodoo joined the channel
#
snarfed aha, it expects the Link header rel value to be quoted
#
snarfed ok so at least it's running and finding bugs. that's something.
#
ben_thatmustbeme no one has yet to limit based on byte length have they aaronpk. probably because its really difficult to do with curl and php
#
ben_thatmustbeme so i'd guess its similar in other languages
awolf joined the channel
#
snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: limit what? wm endpoint discovery?
#
aaronpk on fetching the source URL
#
snarfed bridgy has for a while now
#
ben_thatmustbeme oh cool
#
snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/util.py#L75
#
snarfed 500KB
#
snarfed added that when a known site started returning >3MB HTML, i think due to a big data uri image
#
aaronpk oh nice!
#
ben_thatmustbeme snarfed++
#
Loqi snarfed has 235 karma
callovarne joined the channel
#
aaronpk haha the big data URI image might be my fault since quill sends that if you drag an image into the editor
#
snarfed heh
#
KevinMarks_ I bet that was me
#
Loqi KevinMarks_: tantek_ left you a message 6 hours, 58 minutes ago: The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466682278926
#
snarfed nah it was...let's see...
#
snarfed evdemon.org
#
snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/525
#
snarfed https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1088
#
GWG Webmentions on WordPress limit by response size now.
#
ben_thatmustbeme cool
#
snarfed <3s bridgy's retry button
#
snarfed got 18/21 this time. (no caching.) https://brid.gy/facebook/1407574399567467#responses
#
aaronpk much better!
#
snarfed so much for debugging later :P
sonicrocketman and callovarne joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme webmention.rocks: how to get around vouch :P
#
ben_thatmustbeme or rather how to easily find a vouch for anyone who is testing
#
aaronpk that's why it doesn't promise to keep the comments visible
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme probably best for me to blacklist webmention.rocks as a valid vouch domain at some point though
friedcell and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] GWG: I can spin up a few WordPress test sites if you need them. Anything in particular you were trying to test from your comment earlier this morning?
#
GWG chrisaldrich, this WordPress timezone thing. gregorlove found the test he did had a plugin changing the default.
#
GWG That's why his results didn't match mine.
#
[chrisaldrich] GWG: Kudos on the post this morning. I'm sending you a reply in a moment or two, in part as a devil's advocate for Gen2 and Gen3 indieweb users. (I know most/all of the answers, but thought there might be some use in the Socratic method.) Some of it you may have covered in your Part 2 post, I just haven't seen it yet.
#
GWG chrisaldrich, I didn't write it yet
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of David Shanske's tweet: Why Microformats #IndieWeb" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-david-shanskes-tweet-why-microformats-indieweb-de97f66fb2
#
GWG Part 2 was going to cover p-name
#
GWG Feedback is great
#
[chrisaldrich] I'll try out the timezone piece later tonight when I'm back home.
#
[chrisaldrich] In regard to microformats
#
[chrisaldrich] I've been noticing that there are much better methods for doing timestamps than some of the ones I've been using by default, it's definitely on my roadmap, so there's no reason to bump it up a bit.
#
[chrisaldrich] I'd looked at your _s stuff a bit over the weekend and it seems solid. Shall I pile onto that PR to push the issue for development?
#
[chrisaldrich] I've noticed some sporadic timezone issues recently, but haven't had time/desire to dig in and fix them (other than by hand if they seem critical).
#
GWG chrisaldrich, it is also stage 1. I have to come up with a neater way to do tags
#
[chrisaldrich] I've had tags on my todo list for a bit, but they haven't seemed as important for some reason. Is there something particular (besides completeness?) driving your itch?
#
GWG chrisaldrich, completeness of the articles.
#
GWG I want _s to have it the correct way.
#
GWG And documented how to do it.
friedcell joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] Sorry, lost my mind for a second... I was thinking about two other themes I've been pecking away at and had lost sight that this was specifically for _s!
#
[chrisaldrich] having more themes support small pieces of indieweb like this will go a huge way towards helping adoption, particularly for Gen2/3
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
GWG It isn't specifically for it.
#
GWG It is the same stuff I did for Independent Publisher
#
GWG I am just using _s as a medium
#
GWG Because so many things are based on it.
#
[chrisaldrich] Yes, it's a great way to "infect" underlying code so that it's supported out of the box. The key is to keep people from using the mf stuff for themeing when they're not sure what it's really for...
shiflett, KartikPrabhu, snarfed, friedcell, callovarne, M-RyanRix, jdp, terminalpixel, Eloquence, myfreeweb, danielcberman, PFMurph, halorgium, comzeradd, _6a68, emceeaich_, kegan[m], renoirb, hmans, lmorchard, CaptainCalliope, michel_v, reidab and jkphl joined the channel
#
jkphl good evening indieweb!
jden, gluytium and AndChat|566325 joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Finally" http://www.ouvre-boite.com/finally
#
Loqi [indieweb] "Interesting notes here for those into static but #indieweb websites"
KartikPrabhu, shiflett and goodoo joined the channel
#
gRegorLove Shouldn't there be a link on that second one? ^
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
gRegorLove watches an indie-tumbleweed blow through the room
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek good evening
#
tantek GWG, I noticed you were using a US formatted date inside a time element. If you want to use that style of display, you must use a datetime attr for dt-published
#
tantek or just use an iSO date and stay dry
Lancey_ joined the channel
#
Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWebify.Me" https://indiewebify.me/
snarfed joined the channel
#
bear what's the context of those links loqi is showing?
[kylewm] joined the channel
#
[kylewm] I think they’re from superfeedr tracking “indieweb” … they are so weird :stuck_out_tongue:
#
Loqi [kylewm]: colintedford left you a message 14 hours, 24 minutes ago: A way to avoid the chat / #indie(web-)chat confusion might be to change the "chat" in the latter to (eg) "chatter", "offtopic" (or "natter" per KevinMarks). (re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-22/line/1466659957936) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466667485508
#
Loqi [kylewm]: tantek_ left you a message 10 hours, 17 minutes ago: The Long Now is holding a Long Now Summit on 2016-10-04 and there's a call for submissions for Ignite Talks! Add yourselves! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f6zIEhPeVa7vIECZFhDC_LKxwa0mMyLuLgBKguRHKJA/viewform http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466682278926
#
jonnybarnes have we dropped mp-syndicate-to in favour of syndicate-to with micropub endpoint
#
jonnybarnes ?
[shaners] joined the channel
#
[shaners] I want to raise a very real logistical question about all of the move to indieweb.org discussion:
#
[shaners] Who besides aaronpk is willing and able to actively work on this infrastructure now and later?
#
tantek the less work it takes to do and maintain, the better
#
[shaners] Still, he’s the only one that does a lot of this work now.
#
tantek I've so far worked on the home page
#
[shaners] That’s a low bus score. A bottle neck.
#
tantek e.g. making the home page and other wiki things work for us to make the switch we did for IndieWeb Summit
#
tantek shaners, I'm not sure asking "who" is that helpful, instead saying, "I can help with", which is how I signed up for and did the home page changes
#
[shaners] For example, who is able to actually do a mediawiki upgrade? Even if other people had those keys to the castle, who is willing to?
#
tantek so if there's a piece of infrastructure that you feel confident and motivated to help with, go ahead and say so
#
gRegorLove I am willing to do MediaWiki maintenance. I don't have direct experience, but am comfortable setting up a test version of MediaWiki and learning, and PHP is my daily programming language.
#
[shaners] I think it’s helpful. Bc part of what shaped my part of the proposal was my ability to help build and maintain some of those pieces. But as it stands, I’m not able to do anything about mediawiki or its plugins.
#
bear [shaners] i've asked multiple times across the last couple of months to help with the backend infra load
#
tantek thanks gRegorLove
#
[shaners] bear: what in particular does that mean? (not snark, just “back end” means different things to different people)
#
tantek I don't think we should be basing anything in the transition on "yet to be built tools"
#
tantek I don't think it's a good idea to make the community *functional* stuff a test bed
#
bear [shaners] as one of the few ops people in the community, I'm able and willing to help with anything that is needed
#
tantek your own domain(s) are more appropriate as testbeds for anything you're building
#
tantek and once you've tested it, it's built
#
tantek not "to build" or "to help build"
#
[shaners] tantek: that’s not been true so far. news.iwc.com, this-week, those were built and deployed on iwc.com proper
#
tantek shaners, nope, those were all experimental *additions*, not *transitions*. very different
#
tantek and as aaronpk has pointed out, he's not sure news.iwc was even appropriate, and is thinking of moving it to one of his own domains
#
[shaners] also, the web logs of /irc and the live chat of /irc were not built and deployed on someone else’s site. they were built expressly for iwc.com and deployed there.
#
tantek which seems fine too
#
tantek again, additions, and async with everything else
#
tantek no one is saying don't build stuff
#
tantek just saying, don't bottleneck any transitions on any "to build" stuff
#
tantek everything here has been through iteration
#
tantek without breaking anything existing
#
[shaners] i’m also not even talking about building a cms. we proposed using jekyll. nothing to build. but i can help maintain that in a way that I can’t with mediawiki / php.
#
tantek which helps because then you can pretty much eliminate all "product/project management" type coordination stuffs
#
tantek jekyll is less accessible than mediawiki to a broad set of people
#
tantek and it was proposed as a *replacement*, not an addition
#
[kylewm] please let’s not debate jekyll vs. mediawiki again
#
tantek yeah not sure why that keeps coming up
#
tantek I'm skeptical of any "yet to be built" *replacements*
#
[shaners] I’m not. That’s not the point of what the question I raised at all.
#
[shaners] So, again. my concern is the small set of people who are maintaining the iwc infrastructure.
#
tantek for anything we have
#
[shaners] tantek: please quit talking about “yet to be built” replacements. this isn’t about that at all.
#
tantek making more people dependent for their own singular piece doesn't actually help the bus count
#
tantek so again, that has nothing to do with that concern
#
tantek "something with jekyll" is yet to be built
#
[shaners] please stop tantek
#
tantek otherwise you could share a URL to a prototype somewhere
#
tantek which is what aaronpk usually did for folks when he was trying something out
#
[shaners] how many people have credentials to upgrade the mediawiki software on whatever server it’s on?
#
tantek seems like a premature question
#
tantek how many people know how to upgrade mediawiki?
#
tantek how many people maintain a mediawiki now?
#
tantek URLs?
#
tantek etc.
#
[kylewm] GWG raised the same question at IWC, and bear raised it in chat yesterday
#
bear your both talking past each other
#
[kylewm] so plenty of people are asking
#
[kylewm] I don’t think it’s premature
#
tantek aaronpk maintained multiple mediawikis before we started indiewebcamp
#
gRegorLove aaronpk, tantek, and tommorris are listed as MediaWiki admins, so I think only those three could do MediaWiki upgrades currently.
#
tantek so it seemed fine / made sense when he suggested starting *another* mediawiki
#
gRegorLove (regardless of server FTP access)
#
bear everyone pause for a moment
#
[shaners] that was a fine way to start. but 5 years later, i don’t think the work load show be mostly on one person.
#
bear we have different threads and different readings of different threads happening
#
tantek yes bear
#
bear the one item that has been raised in the past and needs to be followed up on is this - having server level access be more than with aaronpk
#
bear so we have a bus factor of > 1
#
bear that I am working with aaronpk on
leg joined the channel
#
bear the other core (and very small # of) infra we have is the wiki - which multiple people have admin rights for
#
bear so that can be fixed by many
#
bear what tantek is saying is that we avoid having *core* infra for this very reason and encourage people to run their own servers
#
bear is done
#
bear I'll get with aaronpk and make the server access happen sooner than later so we know it's covered
#
bear thanks for letting me slow things down and summarize
#
bear returns the channel to their normal conversations
gluytium joined the channel
#
tantek bear, yes that makes sense
#
tantek increase bus factor
#
tantek minimize core infra dependencies
#
tantek that would be good to capture somewhere
#
tantek I feel like I've seen too many companies/projects go nuts with installing too many things, using too many languages and then you have a big mess that not only no one person can maintain, but each piece has a bus factor of one, which makes it *superfragile* - since the chance of any 1 of n people failing is much greater (exponentially) than just 1 person failing.
#
bear the reason I tend to avoid having any community ramp up on core/feature infra is to avoid having the care-and-feeding of that infra turn into another unpaid job for the people who started it (no matter what the level of enthusiasm was)
#
tantek sounds like wise words from experience
#
aaronpk Good afternoon
#
aaronpk I just woke up from a nap
#
bear this policy also allows you to politely suggest "no" to folks without seeming like it's a no from someone "in the core"
#
bear whispers to aaronpk ... go back to sleep quick!
#
aaronpk Just want to toss another data point in for consideration. I did a lot of work to make indiewebify.me run on google app engine and auto deploy from github in order to allow more people to contribute to it without going through me, however that has yet to be taken advantage of
#
aaronpk Not sure I have a particular point I'm trying to make, just worth remembering that while having this discussion
#
gRegorLove What is indiewebify.me?
#
Loqi Indiewebify.me is a service that checks how "indie web" your site is and reports back its results https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebify.me
#
gRegorLove What is indiewebify?
#
gRegorLove Perhaps a "Contributing" section on ^
#
bear looks like loqi is napping also
#
Loqi Indiewebify.me is a service that checks how "indie web" your site is and reports back its results https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebify
#
gRegorLove Good morning, Loqi
#
gRegorLove So when a PR is merged into indiewebify.me, it automatically updates? Or any other steps to deploy?
#
aaronpk If the tests pass it deploys
#
gRegorLove Cool
#
bear it uses travis' deploy mode to push to gapp
#
gRegorLove I might take a try at it. 26 open issues currently.
snarfed and shiflett joined the channel
#
aaronpk Thanks. It definitely needs a few holes patched
#
aaronpk also, putting aside the whole discussion of the new things on /indieweb.org, we do need to settle on everything on the "rename to IndieWeb" page pretty soon in order to actually switch on July 4
#
[kylewm] aaronpk: does anything need to be decided other than docs. or no docs.?
#
aaronpk The big one is chat
#
aaronpk Since the current logs only support one channel
#
aaronpk I think everything else at least has a "do nothing" option even if that isn't the best option
#
gRegorLove I don't have a strong opinion on chat subdomain vs directory, so not sure how/if to vote.
colintedford joined the channel
#
gRegorLove I voted on the paths question, though. And definitely think #indieweb-chat should not be logged, as is current.
#
[kylewm] oh weird, some lines didn’t make it to slack
#
aaronpk Uhoh why?
#
aaronpk is there a pattern to them? Max like length or something?
#
[kylewm] missed the lines before and after you said “Since the current logs…" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
AndChat|566325 joined the channel
#
[kylewm] no I just mean, you can just redirect indiewebcamp.com/ to indieweb.org/ on July 4 … none of the other stuff has to happen on that day does it?
[aaronpk] joined the channel
#
[aaronpk] Weird
#
aaronpk Part of the goal of the "rename" was to also include splitting the chat channels
#
aaronpk and in my experience that needs to happen decisively and in a single day in order to get the most people to switch over
#
[kylewm] ok gotcha
#
jonnybarnes what will the new channels be?
#
[kylewm] not sure how to vote, I dislike all the chat/ suggestions equally :]
#
[kylewm] what is rename to IndieWeb?
#
Loqi Rename to IndieWeb is a proposal from the 2016 Leaders Summit, to change our primary identity from "IndieWebCamp" to "IndieWeb" https://indiewebcamp.com/Rename_to_IndieWeb
#
[kylewm] jonnybarnes^
#
gRegorLove I somehow missed changing the main room to #indieweb
#
GWG tantek, I know, it was outside the scope of the example, but it should be correct. Will update
#
bear.im edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+561) "adding my thoughts and votes" (view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
calumryan.com edited /event (+319) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove bear: Can you expound on the +1 for docs? Just curious, being the first +1 vote.
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+276) "/* where to put IRC logs */" (view diff)
#
bear I am a fan of subdomains is all - it lets the namespace be as flexible as each needs
#
bear otherwise whatever isn't in a subdomain has to fight with the wiki for url routes
#
bear subdomains also give the most flexibility for where sub-parts of the apps run
[shaners] joined the channel
#
[shaners] +1 bear
#
bear indieweb.org/foo == means you have to run an load balancer or nginx to route to other servers if what you have isn't running on the main server
#
aaronpk well the server is already nginx so it's easy to reverse proxy to other apps
#
bear not if the app is on another server
#
tantek bear, per what you said about minimizing the core
#
aaronpk scratches head
#
jonnybarnes but doable bear?
#
bear (well, it's easy but then you have to open firewalls and incur extra networking)
#
tantek I'm not sure we should be optimizing for "lots of apps"
#
tantek seems like something to discourage actually
#
[kylewm] no not always doable, depends on the app … getting KNown to run in a subdirectory has a been a royal pita
#
tantek looks at the latest chat options
#
aaronpk it's just a matter of changing the proxy_pass directive to point to another hostname instead of localhost
#
tantek kylewm: if you don't like the chat options, brainstorm and add more!
#
bear i'm not encouraging "many apps" -- just sharing what has bitten me in the ass before when setting up domains with possible multiple backends
#
tantek bear, I'm saying discouraging lots of (multiple) backends by not generalizing first is a good thing
#
bear until you hit that moment when you need the first one...
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-19) "/* chat subdirectory */ simplifying my vote, a la kylewm" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+52) "/* move to a page on new chat logs */" (view diff)
#
bear [aaronpk] sure, that is possible - but now toss https into the mix - you now have web <-> ssl <-> nginx <-> ssl <-> nginx <-> app
#
bear (I freely admit that this is where my baseline/default stance is probably out-of-touch with what is currently needed)
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-225) "remove bear's double link to name (it's in his sparkline template already)" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+119) "/* news subdirectory */ vote" (view diff)
#
colintedford Regardless of whether it gets logged, if the chat urls change to have "chat" in them we want to rename #indiechat / #indieweb-chat to avoid confusion.
#
gRegorLove so far move to gazette.p3k.io is winning. I feel bad voting and piling up more work for aaronpk :)
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+233) "/* +1 docs subdomain */" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove But I think I'm liking it more than the other options
#
gRegorLove Though "leave it as-is, move it to gazette later" is an option
#
aaronpk this chat thing is turning into like 3 different issues and i'm worried the page doesn't capture them separately right now
#
bear either way, we have to get multiple channels solved
#
bear and where those UI items and log links live is the other set of issues (accurate?)
#
aaronpk 1) IRC room names, pretty much already agreed upon 2) base URL for the web interface, e.g. subdomain vs path, and 3) URL structure for web interface
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+27) "/* +1 chat subdomain */" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+108) "/* where to put bookmark aggregator */ votes" (view diff)
#
[kylewm] gregorlove: you’re +1 on gazette? why may I ask
#
[kylewm] news subdomain is winning, for the record
#
tantek wow collisions
#
gRegorLove Heh
#
gRegorLove backs away from editing for a while
#
tantek nah, keep editing one set of choices at a time
#
tantek go go go
#
gRegorLove kylewm: You're right, missed that somehow. I'm +0 on gazette.
#
gRegorLove Wait, I'm confused.
#
gRegorLove "Redirect news.indiewebcamp.com to news.indieweb.org" and "leave it at news.indiewebcamp.com"
snarfed1 joined the channel
#
aaronpk if we bump up the header level the subheaders will stand out better. that kept confusing me while i was editing the page
#
gRegorLove I thought it was a given that anything "indiewebcamp.com" is being redirected. Am I mis-reading the second one?
#
gRegorLove In my head I was reading the second as "leave it at news.indieweb.org" which is the same option. That's where I'm getting confused.
#
tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+628) "/* where to put IRC logs */ add votes, change a few votes per reasoning from others, simplify chat options based on non-controversial opinion patterns" (view diff)
shiflett joined the channel
#
bear aaronpk - did I make sense with my little ascii diagram about why I don't like/recommend that proxy_pass goes to any external entity (well any that isn't behind the same firewall as the nginx itself)?
#
tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+170) "/* where to put slack invite page */ dislike subdomain, combine with chat logs home page" (view diff)
#
aaronpk i get it, i just don't see it as a blocker
#
bear if we are to be serious about security then it is
#
bear when you do that now all traffic to the backend server is from the same tls cert
#
bear you lose PFS and other benefits
#
aaronpk what is PFS?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PFS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10N_
#
bear Perfect Forward Secrecy
#
KevinMarks_ at the moment chat and wiki have separate logins (and login model) which may be an argument for isolation fo cookies
#
bear well, you don't *lose* it - you just now have all traffic going across the internet with the same cert - and the web client would not know if the backend connection was MITM'd
#
aaronpk KevinMarks_: i was considering combining them
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+86) "/* leave it at news.indiewebcamp.com */ changing vote; think I misunderstood" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+93) "/* news subdomain */ vote" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+266) "/* where to put bookmark aggregator */ changed votes based on others' reasoning, new fave option gazette" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+135) "/* where to put newsletter */ different than "news" and this week is growing" (view diff)
#
tantek KevinMarks - see my comment. they should have the same login
#
tantek ok I think I'm done with that iteration of adding/update my votes
#
tantek aaronpk's (and others') reasonings impacted my votes
#
gRegorLove Is anyone in favor of "leave it at news.indiewebcamp.com"? Five -1s so far.
#
aaronpk tantek: i'm a little unclear on what your votes on peoples' votes mean
#
tantek it's like a debate or agreement
#
tantek in some cases other people's votes changed my opinion and I'm saying why
#
tantek in some cases I think the reasoning was flawed so I said why
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+65) "/* chat subdirectory */" (view diff)
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+33) "/* slack subdomain */" (view diff)
#
veganstraightedge.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+42) "/* move to a page on new chat logs */" (view diff)
#
aaronpk ok yeah votes on the url design part of "chat subdirectory" are getting conflated
#
aaronpk bear and shaners both voted "+1 for variant 1 with the chat subdomain" but the vote is under "chat subdirectory"
#
tantek yup
#
aaronpk can you move the URL design part of that out? that shouldn't have been part of the question
#
tantek shaners "The wiki is too intimidating to drop new people into" is not going to magically solve itself with a second set of pages. if anything that will only make it worse because the same people not improving the wiki will also not improve a second set of pages
#
KevinMarks_ I suppose edting the wiki from chat already means that they have implictly the same login, but we do lose the 'join the club' aspect of setting up indieauth wiht a specific goal
#
bear after a while I was getting confused so I just voted where I saw others
#
tantek only way to solve "The wiki is too intimidating to drop new people into" is to keep improving the wiki
#
tantek setting up a second parallel universe just makes more work
#
tantek and in a volunteer setting where most don't do a lot of general content improvement, "more work" = fail
#
KevinMarks_ the 'what is" editing model does do that
#
tantek does do what?
#
KevinMarks_ - make it less intimidating
#
tantek agreed
#
tantek I really dislike having multiple places to update for stuff
#
tantek mostly I suffer with that every other week because of events
#
tantek but I really don't want to see that get worse
#
tantek with other areas like home page etc.
#
tantek thanks everyone for providing such thoughtful opinions / reasoning
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek KevinMarks, would appreciate your opinions in particular since you were a remote participant during the leaders summit
#
gRegorLove Good point. At least the home page is in the same wiki-edit flow currently. *if* the home page were a different platform, I think a goal for that should being able to pull in upcoming events automatically.
#
tantek bear, at some point when I'm more cognizant I'd like to deep dive on a gentlemen's debate on merits/downsides of using subdomains. I feel have things to learn from you.
#
aaronpk if the home page is ever not actually a mediawiki page it is *definitely* going to pull in events automatically
#
bear willing to go into more depth for any of this
#
tantek I'd really like a chance to "just" update the home page with markup+CSS to look like whatever "magical" design people are imagining
#
tantek instead of leaping to "we need new plumbing for my hypothetical magical new content+CSS design"
#
aaronpk feel free to! there's nothing stopping anyone from making significant changes to the home page to make it prettier. if you're worried about "breaking" things, then copy it to a page under your user page and experiment there
#
bear aaronpk - if subdomains are not selected then will we have to reserve a few /url's within nginx so the wiki doesn't get called for them?
#
aaronpk yeah we should probably do that for anything we're expecting to have in the near future
#
bear that's kinda like stop words for mysql - we will need to have placeholder pages inside the wiki warning people about it
#
aaronpk there's going to be some slight weird/awkwardness around creating links to the non-wiki things from inside the wiki
#
aaronpk normally you can use [[page]] syntax from the wiki to link to other wiki pages, but we'll lose that for any URLs on indieweb.org that aren't actually in the wiki
#
bear (winking) yep, that's why I love subdomains ;)
#
tantek aaronpk, I don't feel the urgency (yet) to redesign the home page
#
tantek rather I am challenging those that do
#
aaronpk really?
#
tantek to do the hard work of figuring out a UX / redesign
#
tantek instead of wasting time debating plumbing
#
tantek especially since the current design (three bullets) came from Scott Jenson a UX expert
#
tantek so whoever thinks they are good at content / copy-edit / design has a high bar to meet
#
tantek aaronpk - I agree with you about event boxes
#
tantek rather than the event sections
#
aaronpk what did i say about event boxes? i don't remember
#
tantek I'll try to brainstorm specific incremental improvements for that piece
#
tantek that we need them :)