#indiewebcamp 2016-07-04

2016-07-04 UTC
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@davidmead Every photo I take on a digital device is sent, automagically, to my Flickr and marked 'private' but #indieweb http://davidjohnmead.com/blog/2016/07/03/time-to-clean-up-my-flickr/ (twitter.com/_/status/749761401246261248)
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miklb that's a 3 month old article :/
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GWG miklb: It keeps popping up though
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miklb yeah, I hate the trend of retweeting old posts.
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GWG What is going on with you, miklb?
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miklb not too much, have been doing a little here and there on my site with the micropub stuff. Need to separate out the notes from articles. Want to switch from the indie jekyll theme to a personalized design
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miklb short term trying to keep my anxiety in check with all the fireworks :-(
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@wphuntme Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress | @jpen365 http://www.wphunt.me/general/trackbacks-vs-pingbacks-vs-webmentions-for-wordpress-atjpen365 (twitter.com/_/status/749790647738044416)
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gRegorLove Good evening
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message on 7/1 at 3:06pm: could review this new photo template to help make sure we actually get nicer looking photos with u-photo markup for the newsletter etc: https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:photosrcalt http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-01/line/1467410771598
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GWG Evening, gRegorLove
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gRegorLove +1 for skipping paper.li links via Loqi.
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Loqi yeah!
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gRegorLove paper.li just aggregates content based on things you like/retweet/interact with on Twitter and auto-tweets an obnoxious "newspaper" daily.
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gRegorLove I honestly suspect most of the accounts that seem to only be tweeting it are abandoned accounts that the paper.li app is still connected to.
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gregorlove.com created /paper.li (+195) "stub" (view diff)
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gRegorLove !tell tantek photosrcalt template looks OK in general, though requires the full URL of the image, which in the HWC you edited is only found by first using the [[File]] MediaWiki syntax. Using the exact URL loses the ability to easily re-size like the [[File]] format, too.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegorLove !tell tantek A nice improvement would be if it accepted just the File:filename.jpg format and expanded the full image URL, and also accepted fully URL's for off-site images.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegorLove Hiya GWG. What's new?
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GWG The usual. Trying to convince community members to accept PRs.
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GWG After this next one, I want to try living with Micropub.
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@kevinmarks “People will be inside more… cut off from their neighbors, watching interactive monster truck contests. Or porno.” http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1994/01/10/e-mail-from-bill?mbid=indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/749838705737641984)
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jihaisse al
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miklb hello
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cweiske.de edited /WordPress (-372) "/* Fatal Error memory exhausted */ not having 41mib ram is no reason to complain" (view diff)
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petermolnar question: how many of you are filling in the h-card p-nickname to show nicks that would be useful for people-tag @mentions? eg. I know tantek is tantek.com, but right now, I can't find any automated way to query this info from tantek.com - it's either tantek.com or full name. The only place I could turn for this information is the irc-people page.
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jonnybarnes are we not using #indieweb now?
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petermolnar good question
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petermolnar are we?
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: does everyone have to advertise a nickname? Is there a fallback you can use?
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petermolnar of course there is a fallback: either the domain name or the full name
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petermolnar but it would be nice to have the commonly used handle in the h-card, wouldn't it?
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KartikPrabhu if people want to publish it, yes. if they don't then you use the fallback
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petermolnar KartikPrabhu yes, that is trivial and is a solution. However, I was asking if anyone is actively filling it in or not, mostly to understand why it's uncommon to do so.
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KartikPrabhu maybe because there hasn't been a use case for it. Is there a consumer/use-case for adding explicit nicknames?
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petermolnar yes, to have @ handles for people-tagging
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Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Grant Potter's post on known.networkeffects.ca" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/repost-of-grant-potters-post-on-knownnetworkeffectsca-4aecfe0ae4
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Loqi [indieweb] "Wow 20h+ of paper.li trash on the #indieweb Twitter hashtag" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/wow-20h-of-paperli-trash-on-the-indieweb-twitter-hashtag
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j4y_funabashi petermolnar: nice idea, I might add nickname to my hcard
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Loqi j4y_funabashi: tantek left you a message 17 hours, 58 minutes ago: re: post-type-discovery style algorithm for webmentions, same algorithm http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467568318082
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Loqi j4y_funabashi: tantek left you a message 17 hours, 56 minutes ago: let's figure out any difference (or places that need more detail) that might exist with things like person tags or salmention. I'd prefer to incorporate those directly into post type discovery http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467568394086
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j4y_funabashi At the moment I just enter urls for person tags
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: sure. But why do I need to publish a nickname so that you can use it as a @ handle?
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j4y_funabashi But I am planning on having some sort of lookup that tries to convert the url to a human name
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petermolnar uhm, because why not?
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petermolnar KartikPrabhu you don't; no one has to. You are one of the few who is using their full name as handle here and there; others don't
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j4y_funabashi petermolnar: do you fallback to name before url?
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petermolnar eg. GWG, tantek, aaronpk; their domains, names, and handles are 3 different thing
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petermolnar and the handle is not usually published
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KartikPrabhu so are mine, if you count capitalisation and underscores
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KartikPrabhu i am assuming handles means Twitter
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petermolnar j4y_funabashi I've had an initial run at people-tags, but that way pulling and parsing irc-people, which is cheating; this is a second attempt and nothing is decided yet
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petermolnar probably name before url, yes
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petermolnar 'handle' in this context means an announced nick they'd preferred to be referred in a reply/post/mention
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petermolnar there are cases when the tld-less domain name is a good fallback as well, but not always
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petermolnar especially not if it's a domain hack
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j4y_funabashi I was thinking that I could use my phone contacts as a way to resolve names too, most of my friends that I would person tag are on Facebook so I can't really fetch their hcard
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: right, that is what I mean. people can publish nicknames if they want to but they should not have to
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petermolnar no, of course not. but right now nearly no one does it and I would like to know why; is it something people forgot, never thought of, don't want, etc?
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KartikPrabhu maybe because they've never had to
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petermolnar so never thought of :)
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KartikPrabhu more like "never needed"
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j4y_funabashi I didn't because indiewebify didn't tell me to :)
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j4y_funabashi !tell tantek cool, I am just implementing the notification text an realising that mention posts have 2 types, the post type is based on h-entry properties but the mention type needs other information
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG Morning
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petermolnar morning
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GWG petermolnar, anything new?
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petermolnar nothing indieweb related
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petermolnar nothing directly indieweb related
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petermolnar lot of work on parsing content, auto-exporting things in plaintext for archiving purposes, lots of automation which fills things in instead of me (because I tend to forget to do so), but these are just itches and scratches and only for me :)
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GWG I want to automate things so I don't have to do them too.
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petermolnar usually it also helps you learn regexes :)
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GWG I stink at regexes
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petermolnar https://regex101.com/ - this thing is invaluable
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GWG My goal today is to finish the Micropub changes I want today, get it merged, update Post Kinds to match, and use Micropub to post notes and such.
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GWG I want to be able to use Mobilepub
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@sl007 @glennjones Any news about September #indiewebcamp in beautiful Brighton ;) ? (twitter.com/_/status/749987507916406784)
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aaronpk GOOD MORNING!
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aaronpk I am back
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jonnybarnes morning
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jonnybarnes i got quill working with my micropub endpoint, including syndication :D!!!
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aaronpk ooh nice!
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jonnybarnes thankfully quill still sends form-encoded requests to a micropub endpoint, so I’ve only needed to update the responses of my endpoint to use JSON
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aaronpk yep. i still think form-encoded requests are much easier to handle.
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aaronpk at least for the simple requests like creating posts
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aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+443) "etherpad!" (view diff)
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aaronpk Today is the day to launch the rename!
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jonnybarnes does that maen changing irc channels as well?
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aaronpk yep!
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aaronpk I still have some work to prepare Loqi for the channel move
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Loqi yo
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aaronpk I'm going to make an etherpad doc showing my todo list and will check things off there as I go
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jonnybarnes what is etherpad
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Loqi Etherpad is an open source realtime collaborative document editing tool that the IndieWebCamp community often uses to take notes during IndieWebCamps at http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/ https://indiewebcamp.com/Etherpad
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aaronpk http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
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jonnybarnes do “we” own indieweb.org?
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aaronpk yes
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jonnybarnes will my etherpad instance open in my browser auto-update as you add things?
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk you should see a full sentence now. i was typing it as you loaded it
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Loqi +1
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jonnybarnes etherpad++
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Loqi etherpad has 2 karma
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[tantek] Yay aaronpk!!!
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Loqi [tantek]: gRegorLove left you a message 12 hours, 14 minutes ago: photosrcalt template looks OK in general, though requires the full URL of the image, which in the HWC you edited is only found by first using the [[File]] MediaWiki syntax. Using the exact URL loses the ability to easily re-size like the [[File]] format, too. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467605279858
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Loqi [tantek]: gRegorLove left you a message 12 hours, 14 minutes ago: A nice improvement would be if it accepted just the File:filename.jpg format and expanded the full image URL, and also accepted fully URL's for off-site images. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467605315106
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Loqi [tantek]: j4y_funabashi left you a message 4 hours, 13 minutes ago: cool, I am just implementing the notification text an realising that mention posts have 2 types, the post type is based on h-entry properties but the mention type needs other information http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-04/line/1467634180664
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Loqi yay!
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[tantek] En route now but will be in front of a laptop soon to help with QA etc :)
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aaronpk great!
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[tantek] !tell gregorlove I have no idea how to auto-extract the actual jpg url from the fake file: media wiki .jpg up that is not actually a jpg :P
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] Aaronpk, check /indieweb.org - I tried to write up / separate more of the "current state" vs today's changes vs later maybe steps vs brainstorming
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[tantek] Still needs some more cleaning up but should be good enough to make today happen
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aaronpk okay. i thought that whole page was for after today. i was only working off of the rename to indieweb.org page today.
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aaronpk [tantek]: you said you were going to rewrite these "general issues" to be phrased in the positive, so that people can look at them and know what to do, rather than what not to do. http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org#General_Issues
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[tantek] Yes you're correct on both counts
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[tantek] I updated the /indieweb.org page because we have an expectation of the wiki always reflecting current state vs proposals vs brainstorms and we needed that there.
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[tantek] Also the general issues need to be split out per proposal, in addition to the list of actual current issues being split out from under any specific proposal
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[tantek] Btw where are we capturing potential new channels (beyond today, i.e. channels we decided we could postpone eg indieweb-wordpress)?
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aaronpk hmm we don't have a spot yet. it's only been mentioned on https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders so far i think
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aaronpk we should probably reorganize some of the wiki pages around IRC/chat after today, and then they can go there
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tantek.com edited /WordPress (+372) "Undo revision 29256 by [[Special:Contributions/Cweiske.de|Cweiske.de]] ([[User talk:Cweiske.de|talk]]), worth keeping actual error seen in the wild as a known issue until evidence presented that it's been fixed in an update, actual fail 32 bytes" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, I'm of the thinking that it's good to decouple (re-)organization and capturing
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aaronpk sure
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tantek so, yes to some re-organizing after of /IRC and /chat after today
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tantek to be clear
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tantek I would totally put my Freenode IRC nickname as a rel-me on my home page if IRC had a *working* way to link to a nickname
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tantek really surprised no one has fixed that yet
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tantek I'm tempted to just write up a proposal and then submit a patch to Colloquy
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tantek ooh etherpad - good catch
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voxpelli tantek: this doesn't work? ircs://irc.freenode.net:6697/voxpelli (I honestly don't know, but it would open a private message to that user, which is kind of like linking to it)
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tantek no that opens the channel # voxpelli
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tantek (that's what IRC clients have implemented)
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aaronpk lol oh yeah
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voxpelli oh, my tiral and error skills failed majorly :/
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aaronpk i remember this discussion
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tantek where's that new IRC effort again?
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+414) "we don't need name for offtopic channel for today (since not being logged), opinions on etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronpk new IRC effort?
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aaronpk http://ircv3.net/ ?
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tantek yeah
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tantek wondering if they'll solve this or have a solution yet
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tantek or if they'll get suckered into jumping off the identity deepend
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aaronpk so far it looks like the only identity thing they've done is SASL
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aaronpk http://ircv3.net/irc/
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aaronpk did we decide where to move the various Loqi notifications?
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aaronpk ah kind of http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders#Task_List
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aaronpk spec tweets move to #indieweb-dev
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aaronpk and wiki edits
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tantek what was the reasoning behind wiki edits?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reasoning behind wiki edits" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PE
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aaronpk too noisy i think
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tantek lol (smh)
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leg I wonder how relevant http://about.psyc.eu/ is in real live. Seems more "Indie" then irc
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aaronpk wow haven't heard of that one before. sounds kind of similar to matrix.org which actually has some indieweb participation
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aaronpk nice: "Discussion Forum: Doesn't happen by e-mail. It is taking place in the chatrooms and within this Wiki."
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tantek we have an FAQ like that :)
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aaronpk most of their wiki links are broken though. it looks like a very dead project.
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tantek huh
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tantek yeah I'm wondering what a good measure for "abandoned" is
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tantek maybe 2+ years of no changes?
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aaronpk the OAuth wiki hasn't been updated in 2+ years :/
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tantek for open source: 2+ years of no changes in primary repo, and selfdogfood abandonment :)
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tantek there's an OAuth wiki?
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aaronpk but the website continues to be edited via github pull requests sent to me
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aaronpk http://wiki.oauth.net (actually a pbworks site)
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tantek shudders
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tantek pbworks is some serious silo export debt :/
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tantek (I have too many pbworks :( )
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aaronpk as far as i can tell everyone has forgotten about it and can't even get me an admin login for it
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tantek hmm
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tantek looks like Storytlr is abandoned. no changes since 2014-04. and primary dev eschnou switched his site from Storytlr to hosted about.me (sigh)
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tantek sigh: https://t37.net/migrating-a-non-wordpress-blog-to-medium-for-the-nerdiest.html
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Loqi [Frédéric de Villamil] Migrating a non Wordpress blog to Medium for the nerdiest
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tantek if leaving a silo (to go / prefer indieweb) is a /silo-quit - what do we call it when someone migrates their primary identity to a silo (with URLs, or even just hosting like about.me)
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tantek ?
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aaronpk indieweb-quit?
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aaronpk or just indie-quit?
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tantek or /silo-submission ?
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aaronpk lol
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tantek what is the opposite of independence?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "opposite of independence" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PF
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aaronpk dependence
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tantek a-ha /silo-dependence
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tantek or even /silo-dependents if we're listing individual instances there of
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tantek.com edited /projects (+642) "move Social Igniter and StoryTlr to abandoned, delink URLs, note Publify no longer in active use by previous users" (view diff)
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petermolnar "The silo dependent me" ah, that would be a nice title on Medium, wouldn't it? /s
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tantek so much cleanup to do on /projects
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tantek well incremental is better than nothing
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tantek.com edited /Publify (+263) "/* IndieWeb Users */ all past" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Storytlr (+78) "fix link, note IndieWeb Examples are now past" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+665) "channels coming soon (#indieweb, #indieweb-dev), and under consideration (#indieweb-wordpress, #indieweb-meta)" (view diff)
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tantek_ aaronpk, ok I captured #indieweb-wordpress on /IRC accordingly
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tantek_ also the past week or so of so much "meta" discussion in the main channel has been (somewhat / sometimes) counterproductive to actual indieweb make your site better discussion
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tantek_ so I suggested #indieweb-meta as a possibility to try to shunt that sort of thing
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tantek_ (like -wordpress, only if it seems like it's needed beyond this recent spike in meta-chatter)
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tantek.com edited /indiechat (+14) "linky IRC" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+722) "let's get this started" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+73) "/* Chat */ actual clickable IRC links" (view diff)
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tantek ok, /discuss stub is live and already linked from the sidebar
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+90) "/* Email */ also discourage repetition of arguments" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek++ yay new /discuss page!
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Loqi tantek has 298 karma
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+89) "Web UI link duh - even if just to current UI until we have new links. decouple all the things! o/" (view diff)
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tantek I'd like to see more participation in the rename to indieweb effort (or at least opinions!) from those of you who are more active here, especially in other timezones (since it's still "early" in Pacific time)
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aaronpk totally
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bear what areas need review/discussion?
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tantek petermolnar, that means you :)
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aaronpk the main thing that's going to block me as soon as i'm done with this code is where to launch the chat logs
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tantek yep, on it
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aaronpk also just a reminder, i'm updating progress here http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-417) "/* chat subdomain */ updated opinion per kevinmarks argument, dropped other counter-arguments" (view diff)
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tantek bear - everything that (1) lacks consensus, and (2) is a blocker for today
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bear on the rename wiki page?
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tantek yes
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bear opens
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tantek I can start separating the things that appear to be actual blockers
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tantek from the aspirational brainstormy things
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aaronpk consensus meaning anything from -0 to +1?
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tantek aaronpk: yeah I think that's reasonable
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tantek though even in the -0 I'd like to understand why
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tantek rather than just "outvote"
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bear if we bubble up the ones that are actionable it could help gather opinions
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tantek is not a fan of "outvoting" as a method for community positive conflict resolution
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tantek bear, right
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aaronpk -0 is meant to indicate non-blocking disapproval so that makes sense
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voxpelli tantek: any participation needed even if one has been pretty absent throughout the entire discussion so far? (sorry for that btw)
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tantek voxpelli: yes
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voxpelli sees answer to bear and follows the path there
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bear has added his votes to the remainder of the items
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voxpelli ok, somewhat unsure where my contributions are needed apart from generally voting on the brainstorm section of the indieweb renaming wiki
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voxpelli needed/helpful
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tantek takes a look
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tantek ok aaronpk, I'm going to separate (on the wiki) specifically the things you have indicated as part of your to do list
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aaronpk great
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tantek basically as the primary implementer of this change, I'm assuming you're not putting it in the etherpad unless you have to make a decision one way or another *today*
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aaronpk oh I didn't include anything about the newsletter because nothing is changing
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tantek as opposed to the highly-related but more nice-to-have-maybe things
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aaronpk i mean "just keep this-week subdirectory" has +1s and one 0, so easiest option right now is to not do anything
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tantek yep
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aaronpk it'll come along for the ride for the most part
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tantek I'm a big fan of "easiest option right now is to not do anything"
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aaronpk me too especialyl cause it's already noon
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tantek yep, I'm going to be harsh with cuts accordingly
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tantek e.g. no need for any decisions on non-logged channel(s)
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aaronpk makes sense
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voxpelli tantek: I found how you can link to an IRC user at least: ircs://irc.freenode.net:6697/voxpelli,isuser ;) Spec: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-butcher-irc-url-04#section-2.5.2
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jkphl.is edited /events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* Nürnberg */" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: now find me even one IRC client that supports ,isuser
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tantek nevermind how bad a URL design that is
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voxpelli tantek: IRCCloud does
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tantek whoa cool
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jkphl hi indieweb!
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voxpelli and IRCCloud are the chairs of IRCv3 :)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+512) "additional required details per aaronpk (primary rename implementer) notes in etherpad" (view diff)
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tantek ok trying to do these edits at least semi-atomically
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aaronpk another question, do I bother importing logs from the current #indieweb-dev channel? or start logging today?
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tantek I'd say start today better reflects expectations
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bear start today IMO
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tantek is there anything of consequence from #indieweb-dev previously?
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aaronpk it's already gotten some use
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aaronpk easier is to not import tho
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bear I would suggest that if there are then people can cross post
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-22) "/* where to put IRC logs */ note chat.indieweb.org has consensus (no -1/-0 opinions left) over /chat subdirectory)" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: want to double-check this to see if you (as a new reviewer) see anything anyone else missed? https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#chat_subdomain (verify reasoning etc.)
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tantek aaronpk: huh, just realizing date-primary vs channel-primary was never discussed and historically a lot of us prefer (per /URL_design) date-primary
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voxpelli tantek: that was the only thing I noticed as well – that /dev/2016-01-01 and /2016-01-01 are at different levels in the hierarchy – but can see no discussion of that
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tantek ugh yeah
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voxpelli I'm overall +1 on it all though, I won't run in and add new ideas this late :)
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aaronpk interesting point
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voxpelli but a /main/2016-01-01 would have looked better to me so that they are all at the same level – that would enable an archive of all channels (overview style) at a higher hierarchical level for example
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aaronpk i guess my instinct was that the channel was higher level in the hierarchy of information
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aaronpk so if you remove path segments from the right, each path makes sense
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bear that ^^
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aaronpk whereas it's not obvious what should be at just a date url that represents multiple channels
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bear going from specific to general you lose information with date first
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voxpelli but /dev discussions are never part of "/main" discussions which I would expect when moving one step higher in the hierarchy, but too late for that feedback now :)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+369) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ note issues, date-primary or not" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, "it's not obvious what should be at just a date url" - already says in the existing proposal on the wiki - just the main channel
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tantek "if you remove path segments from the right, each path makes sense" <-- is true in either case
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aaronpk then that makes me super not want to use date-primary urls
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tantek huh?
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tantek voxpelli: not too late because we haven't figured it out!
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tantek aaronpk is there some storage / generation issue?
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bear wait - why is this an item for discussion - the descriptive text below "short scheme" has a concrete example
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aaronpk this is adding a new option to the pool that was not yet considered
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tantek bear - because every other instance of stuff we've done (including /URL_design ) has date first
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aaronpk but the previous options had concrete examples
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bear it says "Sub channel logs: {base}/dev and {base}/dev/2016-07-04" which is what we voted for
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tantek bear - not necessarily. people only saw two options, so voted one over the other
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tantek short vs long scheme
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tantek that's the only thing you can really claim people "voted" on
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bear no, the short scheme included an example which says what the short scheme was
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tantek so clearly people want a short(er) scheme
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tantek over a longer scheme
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bear I disagree
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bear the example is clearly associated with "short scheme"
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tantek bear, from a spec reading perspective, I see examples as non-normative, as one *possible* example
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@voxpelli @IRCCloud We discussed it within the @indiewebcamp as a way to link your web profile to your IRC-profile through http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-me (twitter.com/_/status/750045087166529536)
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bear adding the issue is, IMO, rewriting the vote
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tantek bear - or pointing out that the vote only established one detail, not two
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bear I don't follow that at all
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tantek besides, there's a very small number of votes on that particular detail
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tantek compared to others
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aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+518) "/* URL paths of chat logs */" (view diff)
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bear orthagonal to the discussion
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bear the number of votes does not remove the fact that the item *had* an clear example of the url pattern
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tantek bear - it means not many people were paying attention
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tantek which is usually not a good sign
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tantek and means more input needed
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tantek perhaps because of ambiguity
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bear again, not a clear reason to insert an issue about url pattern
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tantek bear, I've seen far too many examples here (and on the wiki) of people *not* reading (and thus having to have to be pointed out) details like that
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tantek just happened the other day in IRC
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bear you can say because you think people were not paying attention is a reason to reframe the question, but that doesn't mean that the people who voted should have thieir votes changed indirectly
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tantek so I reject your assumption that a vote means a vote for *all* details (as opposed to voting a vs. b overall when there are two choices)
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tantek bear - that's why I added the issue *after* the existing votes
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tantek since there's no way to tell what each person "meant" by their vote
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tantek you're assuming all details. I'm saying you can't assume all details.
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bear I'm too tired with life in general right now to get into pendantic reasons why votes don't count or not or to have other people tell me my thoughts are assumptions *and* that they are wrong
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aaronpk i don't think adding the issue like tantek did is implying old votes are invalid
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aaronpk or changed
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aaronpk wow so a test run of importing my logs from the database to files finished in about 2 minutes
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+135) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ make explicit what each path does" (view diff)
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GWG Afternoon
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voxpelli aaronpk: removing dates from channel primary -> latest archived data, removing channel from date primary -> links to the archive of that day for all channels?
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bear sorry, to me it seemed to be one of the few things that was clearly laid out and decided - so adding all of this now just seems like churn
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aaronpk voxpelli: i noted that in my wiki edit. however it doesn't reflect any usage of chat that I know of.
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GWG I was just stuck in a car for a bit, and I had this idea I need some help with
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GWG I was thinking about a Webmention comment I got a while back from someone who said they cared about Webmentions as a stat, not a display item
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aaronpk bear: i agree, date-first seemed like it didn't make enough sense to add as an option to vote on in the first place
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aaronpk also frankly if we had to all express our opinions on each detail of the code i'm writing i would never finish it
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+275) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ alternative more confusing" (view diff)
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GWG I am thinking of adding a better Webmention display to the WordPress dashboard
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tantek aaronpk - your question just points out that the votes *did* have assumptions that you were not assuming!
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tantek because from the "short scheme" text:
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tantek "Main channel logs: {base}/ and {base}/2016-07-04 "
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tantek and you specifically asked "it's not obvious what should be at just a date url"
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tantek what's more confusing about that is that shouldn't {base}/ be the "chat application home page" ?
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tantek which says all sorts of things about joining, different channels, different networks etc. etc.?
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tantek this is why this "vote" didn't make sense
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aaronpk that sounds like new content
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aaronpk there is no home page on the current chat logs, there's just logs
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tantek aaronpk: but the whole argument about using a subdomain was "this is a chat app!"
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tantek I was told there would be a chat app :P ;)
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tantek continues to be skeptical about any/all subdomain proposals
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aaronpk omg we're going in circles
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aaronpk i'm just going to do a thing
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kodfabrik.se edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+480) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */" (view diff)
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bear not that prior art should be taken as a given... but in my experience consuming chat logs over the decades, it's always been service/channel/date
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tantek nope, prior art is good data
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bear if for any better reason than it makes walking thru a backlog of chat easier because you only have to change the last bit of the url to go forward/backwards a day
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tantek interesting, perhaps that's how we scale to other non-indieweb channels (#microformats) and non-freenode service (irc.w3.org)
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tantek bear++ for making good arguments
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Loqi bear has 148 karma
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tantek dang it bear, there you go architecting in a sensible manner ;)
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bear your rubbing off on me sir
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voxpelli I'm more on about the thing of /dev vs / vs /main, bear makes a good argument for the date
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tantek re: other logs and service/channel/date. two examples I see match that: krijn's logs were at e.g. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20160201 and csswg logs were at https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2016-02-01/
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kodfabrik.se edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-45) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ fix my example that got weird due to switch from date primary to channel primary" (view diff)
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bear another example of what i'm trying to describe -- https://botbot.me/freenode/hangops/2016-07-01/?tz=America/Havana
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tantek and glob logs are a query string mess :( http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=29+Jun+2016&e=29+Jun+2016
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bear yuck, that's a good negative example
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tantek (though roughly network%23channel and then date
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tantek )
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aaronpk start and end dates?
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tantek so the information hierarchy is the same even if the syntax is a mess
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tantek yeah
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tantek not advocating, just providing more data
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tantek this is what scientists do - when they disagree, they go get more data to help inform the discussion
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bear negative examples are very important to a balanced discussion
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tantek as opposed to politicians / philosophers who just make up more ornate / rhetorical arguments :P
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tantek (or repeat themselves :P)
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aaronpk unrelated, i'm documenting the nginx config and adding comments which use # in nginx, and realizing that using more # makes the headers stand out more, which is the opposite of markdown
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petermolnar tantek sorry for not being active enough on the rename, though I agree with it, except I'd like to see as few channels as possible ( I have tonnes of windows open already due to work, so less the channels, less of the chance of forgetting checking one)
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petermolnar if I can help with the move though, I'm happy to lend a hand
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tantek petermolnar: agreed, there's definitely rough consensus on fewer channels by default, thus only "more" channels when the pain of "too much cross-talk" or "too unfriendly to new folks/generations" is greater than the pain of "one more channel"
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tantek aaronpk the CSSWG wiki uses more # for greater header, like hey start with ###### for an h1 (!!!)
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tantek has to deal with at least three wiki syntaxes in his "work" and is not happy about it
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jkphl.is created /2017/Nuremberg (+4806) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name summary">IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017</span> = The '''second IndieWebCamp in Nuremberg''', but just one of many [[IndieWebCamps]]! <div class="p-descriptio..."" (view diff)
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tantek wow
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tantek now that's planning ahead
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tantek what is 2017?
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jkphl ;)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "2017" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PG
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aaronpk awesome!
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@voxpelli @IRCCloud I see, nice! To work with parseable rel-me links it has be included directly in the source though to fit well with @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/750051492099424256)
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tantek hahaha jkphl FTW!
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tantek jkphl++
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Loqi jkphl has 15 karma
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petermolnar German engineering :D
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tantek s/engineering/over-engineering :D
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GWG tantek, I need to track down my co-organizer
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jkphl now that the date for the nuremberg web week 2017 is (almost) nailed down ... looks like there will be a double feature: IWC Düsseldorf and Nuremberg just one week apart from each other. hope this works out well ...
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aaronpk the new chat logs will be ssl-only!
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voxpelli tantek: found any example that has both channel and channel-less archives? in regards to /dev vs plain / for main
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tantek lol google translate says "über engineering"
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tantek voxpelli: no
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tantek hmm - finding it hard to argue with the familiarity of existing archive URLs
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tantek and bear's arguments are compelling
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aaronpk another example, slack URLs are {subdomain}.slack.com/archives/{channel}/p{timestamp}
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tantek oh that's a thought
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tantek explicit /archive/ or /log/ at the start of the path
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tantek thus we can still get the glorious promise chat app at the /
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voxpelli For consistency I'm just leaning towards having "/" be "/main" for the main channel, to match "/dev" and all these other examples
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voxpelli for the archives at least
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bear IMO it would be confusing for IRC folks if the "main" channel was not listed as /indieweb/
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aaronpk for anyone curious, i've added the nginx config for what we're talking about to http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
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jkphl.is edited /Events (+518) "/* May */" (view diff)
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tantek bear or chat.indieweb.org/log ?
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tantek or chat.indieweb.org/archive ?
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tantek tends to prefer singular
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voxpelli eg. chat.indieweb.org/log/main and chat.indieweb.org/log/dev vs chat.indieweb.org/log and chat.indieweb.org/log/dev
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bear archive reads better for singular
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petermolnar will be back ~15-20 mins
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+867) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ Issue: Explicit "log" or "archive(s)" in path, and changed opinion about date-primary vs channel-primary" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: your -1 for not using the root for the main channel isn't actually mutually explicit with using it as an overview page
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aaronpk s/explicit/exclusive
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: tantek: your -1 for not using the root for the main channel isn't actually mutually exclusive with using it as an overview page
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+80) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ more sub-issues for details" (view diff)
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aaronpk note that currently there is no content served from date-less URLs
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jkphl.is created /2017/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+4833) "Created page with "__TOC__ <div class="h-event vevent"> == [[2017/Nuremberg|IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017]] == * '''When:''' <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2017-05-20</time> <time..."" (view diff)
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tantek ok subhead provided https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#explicit_log_or_archive_in_path
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aaronpk i am planning on redirecting / to /today and /dev to /dev/today for now
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tantek aaronpk makes sense
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aaronpk later we can add an overview page at /
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tantek aaronpk thoughts on /log or /archive ?
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tantek looking at the other chat log examples made me think of that
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aaronpk i'm on the fence about it still
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tantek sounds like a solid "0" ;)
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aaronpk it doesn't seem necessary since everything on chat.indieweb.org is logs
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tantek it does read nicer out of context
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tantek the URLs that is
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bear for me /log | /archive is nice because it allows for / | /dev to be landing pages for a channel - rules, faq, web interface
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aaronpk so far we've avoided the need for that by just dropping you right into the chat logs which is the same place you go to join the channel, which i kind of like
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tantek even if for now /dev redirects to /log/dev/today
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voxpelli and we should not have a landing page for chat in general at / where we can eg. link to Slack signup, channel overview etc?
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bear does the chat logs allow for non-js retrieval
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tantek voxpelli I think you meant "and should we not"
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voxpelli even if / just says "Chat stuff -> see more at wiki page"
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aaronpk when the page first loads, all content is in the HTML
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aaronpk JS brings in new content in realtime
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tantek yep
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voxpelli tantek: sort of, yeah :P
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bear hmm, then i'm also becoming a +0 for log|archive
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tantek does it mean log|archive is just a holdover from static non-interactive logs?
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bear yea, that's why i'm changing my thoughts
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tantek informeddiscussion++
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Loqi informeddiscussion has 1 karma
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bear with the js adding value for humans (and not being known at all for computers) then it's old form
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bear and that also lets /today | /dev/today become a good landing spot with sidebar info on how to get past dates
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tantek presumably any /YYYY-MM-DD can have an sidebar nav
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tantek s/an sidebar/an archive sidebar
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Loqi tantek meant to say: presumably any /YYYY-MM-DD can have an archive sidebar nav
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aaronpk wait what sidebar
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bear sorry - i'm using "sidebar" to mean "additional links or pointers on how to navigate forward/backwards thru time"
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tantek oops sorry aaronpk
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tantek that was an aspirational slip
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bear not a specific visual design thing
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tantek btw: https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#just_re-use_existing_Slack_page if you're a fan of less work
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tantek I don't see a concrete use-case need for chat.indieweb.org/slack :P
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aaronpk heh well that one is just one file that's easy to drop in to chat.indieweb.org anyway
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tantek the root of slack.indiewebcamp ?
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aaronpk yea
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tantek yeah hence I'm +0 on that option
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bear aaronpk are you using php-fpm on the server ?
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aaronpk yes
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tantek alright, going to start clustering some more consensus items
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tantek this-week and etherpad
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bear k, do you proxy-pass to index.php or just let nginx decide
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kodfabrik.se edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+50) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ splitting out my issue and a standalone one" (view diff)
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aaronpk looks like it's fastcgi_pass php-pool;
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[kevinmarks] This is reminding me of the dwebsummit comment "I don't see why this is so hard, it's just caching and naming things"
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aaronpk where php-pool is an upstream pointing to the fpm socket
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bear ah - I was curious why you had "index index.php" then as a global item
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bear but that's not something to talk about now - I can take a look at the final nginx after it's up and running
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bear (when hopefully you can put my ssh key on the server, hint hint nudge nudge wink wink)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+353) "move a few items with consensus to the top" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+238) "/* Additional Consensus Details */ please check if you object at all (with new data)" (view diff)
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aaronpk *whew* okay i'm becoming reasonably confident that my new chat logs are showing up right for the date permalinks
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+159) "/* Additional Required Details */ ACTION new opinions with data please!" (view diff)
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aaronpk now with avatar proxy URLs and proper timezone support
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bear \o/
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+201) "/* main channel at root or not */ prefer no explicit "main"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+22) "/* main channel at root or not */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+158) "/* main channel at root or not */ note that chat URLs already have "chat" and "indieweb" in them so they don't need another designation" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks, aside from dwebsummit analogies, could you add your opinons to the sub-issues here? https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#URL_paths_of_chat_logs
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aaronparecki.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+0) "/* chat subdomain */" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, one nicety of having explicit /dev vs /log URLs is that the /dev URL can start with an immediate prompt for user name
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tantek instead of having a "join" button that you have to click first to get a text area
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tantek it's like what's the verb of the URL. chat.indieweb.org/dev says to me start chatting in indieweb-dev
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tantek whereas chat.indieweb.org/log/dev or /dev/log says to me show me the log for today
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tantek does that difference in intent make sense? think about it from a sharing the URL (and linking to it) perspective
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aaronpk kind of
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tantek the fewer clicks for people to be able to join the discussion is good
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tantek similarly, I'd like to be able to share the current logs with someone without them getting prompted to join
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tantek I feel like I've experienced both use-cases distinctly
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@jkphl Delighted to announce that there'll be a 2nd @indiewebcamp in Nuremberg on May 20-21, 2017, again as part of #nueww https://indiewebcamp.com/2017/Nuremberg (twitter.com/_/status/750064813934579713)
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@IndieWebCampDE Yay! Der Termin für's 2. @indiewebcamp Nürnberg steht: Wieder im Rahmen der #nueww vom 20.-21. Mai 2017 https://indiewebcamp.com/2017/Nuremberg (twitter.com/_/status/750065204130643969)
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aaronpk are the google search results so bad that it's worth removing the search form from the header? or still worth having it?
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tantek aaronpk, have you tried Yahoo-oooOOOO-oooo?
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tantek (#sorrynotsorry 😂)
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tantek aaronpk to start with there will likely be no search indexing of the new domain's chat logs, just saying it takes them a while to crawl
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tantek so I think that means you can leave out any 3rd party search box
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tantek then we can have a search-off later
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tantek to see who has crawled it better sooner faster stronger
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tantek google vs bing vs ???
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GWG s
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aaronpk anyone want to help me with some string encoding issues?
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aaronpk (the correct answer is no)
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[kevinmarks] I can look at them
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[kevinmarks] I just found a spiderpig anomaly
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aaronpk there is an emdash here http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466670240116
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Loqi [voxpelli] @pgeuder Inclusion is important and it's something that's actively thought about – see eg. http://indiewebcamp.com/generations /cc @brokep
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aaronpk when I imported it to my text file, it came through as \u00e2\u20ac\u201c
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aaronpk now when i'm outputting that in the HTML, it's showing up as –
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aaronpk where's the source of the problem?
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tantek dang no wikipedia article on –
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aaronpk and i'm sending the utf-8 content type header already
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tantek sounds like the "imported to text file" step corrupted it
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aaronpk checks if it's stored correctly in the database
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[kevinmarks] Looks like a u+2013 to me should be E2 80 93 in utf8
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aaronpk ah that might be where the problem is. i imported it from a *copy* of the database that might have it wrong
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tantek mysql?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek yeah...
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aaronpk oh jeez. i think it's always been wrong in the DB
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aaronpk even though this table is set to utf8mb4
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[kevinmarks] So how does it show right on the web?
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aaronpk it's passing the chars through without trying to interpret them?
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aaronpk 💩
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aaronpk yeah that's stored as "💩"
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aaronpk great
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aaronpk i will be very happy to get ridof this database today
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tantek ok I think this deserves its own heading
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aaronpk so uh, I need to "convert" these back to utf8 when i write the text file
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tantek how about UTF-8-my-charset ?
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tantek too punny?
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[kevinmarks] However you're writing them to the server now is working
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aaronpk it's "working" by coincidence
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aaronpk theyre stored wrong in the database
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[kevinmarks] I just found that blogs.com stores images without extensions, so spiderpig turns them into directories with index.html in
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[kevinmarks] Also in a directory called ".a" so this is not obvious
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[kevinmarks] They're stored wrong in the db, but it converts them to something right when serving but not dumping?
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[kevinmarks] MySQL--
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Loqi MySQL has -4 karma
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+415) "move UTF-8 problems to their own heading" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks, feel free to expand on https://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Breaks_UTF-8_by_default
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tantek MySQL--
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Loqi MySQL has -5 karma
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tantek LOL: http://markmcb.com/2011/11/07/replacing-ae%e2%80%9c-ae%e2%84%a2-aeoe-etc-with-utf-8-characters-in-ruby-on-rails/
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tantek not sure if this helps or not: https://www.stephen-scotter.net/computers/web-development/wordpress/ae-characters-or-similar-on-your-wordpress-site
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tantek I think I'm going to add some Wikipedia redirects and see what happens
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aaronpk gawd
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aaronpk there has to be a solution other than replacing individual occurrences of strings
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aaronpk this might be a dealbreaker for me right now, and i can just fall back to using the existing logging system for now
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bear punt on it for now - once they are flatfiles we can fix them as needed
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aaronpk i don't want to switch to flat-file logging in this state
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bear the error is only happening on converted item? so that can be fixed post launch IMO
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bear if anything add a log item if possible showing the file + line of the output to allow for faster finds
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[kevinmarks] You don't want to replace individual occurrences
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[kevinmarks] But the current log generation is doing the right thing
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[kevinmarks] So somehow MySQL is being told to behave correctly in that path
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aaronpk they're definitely stored wrong in mysql right now
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bear could it be that the library your using to write/read from mysql is both causing the issue on write but also reversing the mistake on read?
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aaronpk they're totally unrelated pieces of code
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aaronpk on totally different versions of PHP even
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bear k (trying to get more context to hopefully suggest better solutions than grep + sed)
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tantek I have a feeling PHP may be doing magic fixup
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tantek on output
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aaronpk this *almost* worked https://github.com/neitanod/forceutf8
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aaronpk i think what's happening is there is *no* fixup being done, so by the time it reaches the browser it's the correct bytes because nothing was changed.
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aaronpk but anything that tries to be smart about what encoding the string is gets it wrong
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aaronpk that library fixed a bunch of accented chars, but missed ellipses
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aaronpk argh it missed curly quotes too
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tantek and the poomoji?
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bear seeing the number of items that have been crossed off and the fact that the old log viewing is working... maybe punt till later?
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aaronpk it's not quite that simple but i might be able to cut off some of the work
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+179) "/* Breaks UTF-8 by default */ our very own IRC logs. like: – … “” ‘’" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-10) "better not be a stub any more" (view diff)
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aaronpk i might switch to a more drastic plan B
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bear keep the database until conversion?
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aaronpk keep the DB and keep existing Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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[kevinmarks] Scrape the existing log pages as they are right?
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[kevinmarks] Spiderpig fixed btw
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aaronpk nah more like just continue rendering the logs from the DB as they are now
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bear how many rows are we talking about? could you take the log page generation code and isolate it to loop thru the database and generate the flat file?
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aaronpk 735,000 rows
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bear that's not much at all
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aaronpk i already have a script that converts those into the flat file format
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aaronpk and updated the log viewer to read the flat file format
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aaronpk but i can switch back to querying the DB
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bear I don't think that was what I was suggesting
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[kevinmarks] So what is the flat file writing script doing different than the db querying log viewer?
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bear my suggestion is to scrape you current script and use the log viewer with a hack to have it start at the beginning and work forward while writing an html page that isn't really a page
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bear then post-process that to generate your flat file
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[kevinmarks] Sending to a browser rather than a file?
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aaronpk i'm not sure i understand
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aaronpk by "flat file" i don't mean it's writing HTML files. it's actually json-encoding an object that has all the data for the line.
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aaronpk the format is described here https://github.com/aaronpk/QuartzDB#filesystem
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[kevinmarks] Is the encoding mojibake happening in the file writing, or the file reading?
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aaronpk it ends up wrong in the file
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[kevinmarks] So, in json.put?
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aaronpk also if i just echo the line to the console it's wrong
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[kevinmarks] This is in php?
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aaronpk yeah
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bear apologies if this just makes your head explode... does it look right if you sql dump the database?
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bear if so, then you could process that file to generate your text-file-that-has-embedded-json-bits file
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aaronpk let me check, i doubt it tho
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bear (i'm just trying to see if there is some way to avoid the php json put glitch)
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KevinMarks are you passing JSON_UNESCAPED_UNICODE to json_encode()
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KevinMarks that's supposed to send he chars as utf8 not \u escaped
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aaronpk so mysqldump ends up writing things like '💩'
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KevinMarks http://php.net/manual/en/json.constants.php#117466
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bear so mysqldump is probably just writing bytes and not even trying to encode
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KevinMarks Ÿ isn't in iso 8859-1
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KevinMarks only ÿ
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KevinMarks (which was a mistake for ij)
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KevinMarks (does it show that I spent over a year of my life dealing with encoding at Technorati)
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aaronpk now i'm wondering if my mysqldump and restore had something to do with this
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KevinMarks are you using mbstring in PHP?
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KevinMarks mysqldump and restore could well mangle things yes
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aaronpk no but i'm also not really using any string functions on the data
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KevinMarks mbstring does complicate things I think without ti strings are just bytes, but my php is a bit out of date
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KevinMarks did the JSON_UNESCAPED_UNICODE make a difference?
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gRegorLove Afternoon, indieweb
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gRegorLove I saw there's utf8 encoding issues. wee.
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Loqi gRegorLove: [tantek] left you a message 5 hours, 53 minutes ago: I have no idea how to auto-extract the actual jpg url from the fake file: media wiki .jpg up that is not actually a jpg :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-04/line/1467649457852
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gRegorLove Can the last part of that be translated? ^ :)
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KevinMarks more that there's MySQL made-up encoding issues
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gRegorLove I have a PHP script I've used to correct coerced utf8 characters in non-utf8 columns that's worked pretty well in the past. I can put up a gist of it.
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/745404471132356608
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@kevinmarks @benjamin_ashley @ftrain more that you learn how many successive bad design decisions MySQL made about unicode. (twitter.com/_/status/745404471132356608)
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tantek gRegorLove: sorry for my confusing .jpg vs jpg
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gRegorLove I wasn't sure "up that is not actually a jpg" meant
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tantek URL
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gRegorLove Ohh
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gRegorLove I'm not sure offhand. There's probably some Mediawiki magic way
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tantek this is not a jpeg: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:hwc-got-2016-05-29.jpeg - it's an HTML page with a jpeg inside
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tantek there's probably some mediawiki magic to make the [[File:... magic actually style more nicely, like with a max-width:100% inside
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tantek hmm
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+30) "let's see if we can trick mediawiki into doing the right thing with File: embedded images without worry about explicit styling or width attrs" (view diff)
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gRegorLove [[:File:filename]] will apparently make a wiki link to the MediaWiki page for the image, but haven't found a built-in way to "just give me the URL of the darn image" heh
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+13) "silly mediawiki, quit it with the explicit width height attrs" (view diff)
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tantek oh heyyyyy
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tantek.com created /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+134) "yeah this works" (view diff)
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gRegorLove sweet!
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tantek gRegorLove: well I have half the problem solved: https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test
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tantek at least default File: embedded images will not not overflow by default
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tantek see, CSS *can* be AWESOME
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gRegorLove I love CSS
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gRegorLove (when it doesn't frustrate me :))
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tantek alright, the harder part is getting the u-photo onto an actual image URL
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tantek that unfortunately likely requires hacking Vector
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tantek and it's not like every File: image embed should be a u-photo either
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tantek more like, there should be a way to pass in a class attr value
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gRegorLove Once we upgrade: "class={html class} — (MediaWiki 1.20+) Defines classes (maps to the HTML attribute class="..." of the generated <img /> element)."
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gRegorLove https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images##class=%7Bhtml+class%7D
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tantek was just trying that
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aaronpk oh boy. i just tried launching the DB version of the new logs on the real server and i'm still getting the encoding issues
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aaronpk i think now the only difference is the DB library i'm using to retrieve the results from mysql
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tantek gah, gRegorLove MW <1.20 gives alt="class=u-photo" :(
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gRegorLove aaronpk: table columns have the right collation character set, and connection is set explicitly to utf8?
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aaronpk not exactly
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tantek wow MW is so dumb at filtering I may be able to hack it >:D
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aaronpk but the weird thing is the current logs behave like i want, but new logs don't, despite them being on the same server and using the same DB
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tantek aaronpk, curioser and curioser
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tantek wow I can't believe this seems to be working
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Hm. Ive usually found even if the columns aren't correct, if I run "set names utf8" first and the html specifies utf-8, "coerced" characters still show up right
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+170) "see if class= works (nope, but this hack does!)" (view diff)
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tantek darn it nope
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gRegorLove Haha
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gRegorLove Valiant effort though
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aaronpk switching to the other DB library worked
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+148) "nope nope nope" (view diff)
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aaronpk which makes me wonder...
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gregorlove.com edited /MySQL (+31) "/* Gregor Morrill */ note ProcessWire migration" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: I think you should teach workshops in MySQL and data integrity and charge like $1k/head
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gRegorLove anything I can do to help with the rename stuff?
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gRegorLove Haha
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tantek because isn't that the open source answer? make the open source monoculture library suck so bad that it supports highly paid consulting gigs / workshops for those that maintain the source "for free" ?
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tantek (I mean works for some popular CMSs that shall go unnamed)
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gRegorLove I have no desire to go down that road
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tantek and then you can grow an "ecosystem" with "business models" ;)
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GWG snarfed: I'm working on redoing that PR.
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gRegorLove snarfed: Got a handful of old FB likes which the bridgy URLs are 404 for.
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-52) "walloftext--. big nav blocks for HWC and IWC weren't really adding anything directly relevant to the home page, good enough to link to separate pages with those nav blocks, some copy-editing" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-152) "/* More Information */ move separate live video link to main videos about page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+127) "move live videos link here" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (-28) "link actual text not just silo name" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page () "(-1582) Drop "past events" section since no one was maintaining it since 2014 and that made it look like nothing recent had happened" (view diff)
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tantek GWG, gRegorLove, aaronpk, et al check out the home page, I tried to trim the (semi-)redundant stuff from it, and it should be much shorter / to the point now than that previous so-called "wall of text"
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/
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aaronpk_ well that's odd
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tantek ?
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aaronpk testing web gateway
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tantek ah ok - thought maybe that was a home page comment ;)
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tantek short of doing a full redesign - I want to see what incremental improvements could be made that attempted to make edits consistent with what seemed to be overall consensus at the summit
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-277) "code of conduct is more aligned with principles than just IWC, move it up. drop "Previous IndieWebCamps" list of links, also not updated (since last year?) and available from the "main" link of that section" (view diff)
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GWG Should Indiewebcamp and Homebrew Website Club stay on the main page to the degree they are?
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tantek GWG, I already shrunk down each of their sections considerably. Compare to yesterday.
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tantek a large part of what brings the community together are the (semi-)regular events
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tantek wow Google killed blog search so hard the options no longer work
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tantek.com edited /news (-77) "Google killed Blog Search at some point" (view diff)
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tantek oops that was a half edit
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tantek.com edited /news (-242) "collapse all the things! o/" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /news (-40) "/* Daily Activity */ -redundant Tagboard text" (view diff)
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tantek ok, cleaned up /news a bit - take a look folks: https://indiewebcamp.com/news
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tantek GWG, re: IWC and HWC on the main page - check out how much got edited out today: https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=historysubmit&diff=29315&oldid=29186
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GWG Hmm...
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tantek looking for reviews, opinions, evaluations, feedback on updates to both https://indiewebcamp.com/ and https://indiewebcamp.com/news today (as compared to what they looked like yesterday, feel free to open two windws and compare side-by-side)
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tantek whether sad bad meh or glad
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GWG tantek: The news page is no longer long enough to need a TOC
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tantek GWG, is that a good thing or not? or are you suggesting __NOTOC__ ? (if so, sounds good to me, go ahead and __NOTOC__ it)
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tantek.com edited /news (+32) "see also press-kit" (view diff)
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GWG I was suggesting NOTOC.
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david.shanske.com edited /news (-8) (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /news (+10) (view diff)
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gRegorLove Thoughts on changing "IndieWebCamp has a code-of-conduct." to "The IndieWeb community has a code-of-conduct"?
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gRegorLove That appears on the homepage.
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gRegorLove !tell tantek Homepage edits look good to me
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks text is a bit small on desktop on new homepage
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KevinMarks why .8em for body instead of 1em?
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gRegorLove Mediawiki default
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[kevinmarks] Sidebar still illegible on mobile
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gRegorLove Mediawiki and Vector skin haven't been updated (not part of today's projects), but http://gregorlove.com/2016/06/i-am-tinkering-with-the/
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I am tinkering with the user-customized CSS for the indiewebcamp.com wiki and thought I would share.
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