#indieweb 2016-07-07

2016-07-07 UTC
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KevinMarks1 hm. I could add h-recipe markup to that in about 15 minutes, but adding tests would mean actually building it, which is more like 2 days
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miklb wouldn't run into same issues GWG with the hentry/h-entry?
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miklb or would it be OK with mf1
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@galert9 web hosting https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=https%3A%2F%2Findieweb.org%2Fweb_hosting&ct=ga&cd=CAIyGjliMWYzODZkZjlmOGNmYzg6Y29tOmVuOlVT&usg=AFQjCNG8-TFVY7oQoJm6flBdogSx37d14g (twitter.com/_/status/750842524667961344)
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KevinMarks1 the hrecipe there doesn't do anything - no properties
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miklb I don't follow. I just meant that WordPress uses hentry and they have basically shot down switching to mf2
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aaronpk they probably included that class because they're styling stuff on it
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 36 minutes ago: HWC is only a week away! Could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for your city? Thanks! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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miklb that's the argument for not changing it, yes
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miklb at least in a round about way from what I've read in the trac threads
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KevinMarks1 no, all the styling is on jetpack-recipe https://github.com/Automattic/jetpack/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=jetpack-recipe
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miklb KevinMarks1 in general that's their argument for not switching to mf2 in core.
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miklb would effect too many themes to remove hentry
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miklb remove hentry/switch to h-entry
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KevinMarks Slow things down to Impress users http://www.fastcodesign.com/3061519/evidence/the-ux-secret-that-will-ruin-apps-for-you/
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aaronpk quite the clickbait headline
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aaronpk is there an equivalent for making operations that actualy *do* take a long time seem like they're worth it, instead of having the user feel impatient?
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aaronpk i'm thinking specifically of all the rel-me checks that happen on indieauth.com
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KevinMarks Right, or all the posse copies being posted on known
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KevinMarks You do have progress bars for them
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KevinMarks (on indieauth)
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KevinMarks Maybe it is a phrasing thing - it is like the case Braden refers to there. (I know turbotax does this)
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@theguice this sums it up nicely "UX before plumbing" https://indieweb.org/principles #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/750901745581076484)
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@miklb Jekyll, microblogging and IndieWeb (https://miklb.com/jekyll-and-microblogging) (twitter.com/_/status/750932098819584000)
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cweiske oh, spam arrived in indieweb likes: https://miklb.com/jekyll-and-microblogging
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cweiske the first one
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Ruxton_ come from twitter though, not a directy indieweb like
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cweiske still
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Ruxton this is a big part of why I don't pull back from twitter
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@jkphl We had no fun @ HWC Nuremberg yesterday. Not at all. Also, the BBQ was miserable. https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157670718444605 #indieweb https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/750965471835516928/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/750965471835516928)
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miklb cweiske how is my post spam?
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cweiske the first comment
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miklb yikes
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cweiske s/comment/like/
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Ruxton I dunno, Cheryl seems legit as - https://twitter.com/bdkang2 :P
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cweiske maybe she does actually like microblogging
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miklb I blocked the account and it removed the like from my Twitter client. Wonder if it will filter through to bridgy
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Ruxton can the webmention endpoint handle that? :) Bridgy looks to just scrape HTML to get likes, so if one is removed and it rescrapes I wonder what happens
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miklb I believe it will
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miklb remove that is.
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miklb hmm. maybe not
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miklb At least it got me to fix the layout issue with those :-/
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GWG Morning
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hs0ucy GWG: Good morning
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GWG Morning, hs0ucy
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GWG aaronpk: Apparently, I'm attending the Pre-Summit Meeting for NYC2 on Friday.
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pfefferle ls -la
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pfefferle oops :)
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pfefferle good morning
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gRegorLove .
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gRegorLove ..
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 15 hours, 42 minutes ago: HWC is only a week away! Could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for your city? Thanks! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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gRegorLove .bashrc
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gRegorLove and so on
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[kylewm] aaronpk: sorry I missed your question. no silo.pub doesn’t support emoji reactions on github
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Loqi [kylewm]: tantek left you a message 16 hours ago: HWC is only a week away! Could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for your city? Thanks! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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aaronpk GWG: ?? did I forget to change a date somewhere?
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GWG aaronpk, check the ti.to settings?
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aaronpk aha got it
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cmal is anyone messing around Grav for Indieweb stuff? (PHP-based flat-file CMS with Markdown and Twig templating)
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cmal I didn't find anything about it (yet) so I'm starting on my own but if some people would like to coordinate on this matter, we can talk :)
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aaronpk what is Grav?
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Loqi Grav is a flat-file CMS built on PHP, Twig and YAML and Markdown https://indieweb.org/grav
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aaronpk no indieweb examples there, but add yourself if you're using it!
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cmal for now I'm down to forking the official theme and the aboutme plugin for microformats support, and my changes to the theme have already been merged back in the project so there may be microformats2 support out of the box with the next release
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cmal yeah I'll add it on the wiki :)
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aaronpk nice!
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cmal yup, to be honest I'm just in love with this CMS so far (in terms of theming and plugin writing), it's really well documented https://learn.getgrav.org
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aaronpk it looks very similar to how i structure things on my own site
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cmal what about p3k aaronpk? do you intend to release the full project as free-software ?
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cmal haha that's precisely what I thought when I first read about it :D
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Loqi haha
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aaronpk I do want to eventually, but part of releasing it is doing all that meta-work of making good documentation and making installs/updates super easy, and that is a lot of work to do well :)
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cmal that's true :-/
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aaronpk I am going to start that process once I launch a couple more sites with p3k. Right now it's just me and http://indiewebcat.com
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cmal are you still having a lot of backward-compatibility-breaking updates in regard to the content itself? or is it mostly about themes/plugins/config?
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aaronpk once I have a couple more sites on it, I'll need a smooth update process myself so that will necessitate building that part
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cmal I'm sure benborges would be up for testing your software quite intensively ;)
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aaronpk and yeah i haven't thought about plugins at all yet, and only barely have it so that it's "themable" right now
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cmal well if you need people to help with building a user-oriented documentation don't hesitate to ping me :)
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aaronpk I just might take you up on that!
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aaronpk what's your website? I don't see you on https://indieweb.org/irc-people
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cmal sure, I'm not always available and I'm currently writing some stuff, but I'll keep you updated when I have some time (probably in the next weeks)
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cmal arf I've never registered there, I was running Known on https://cmal.info but due to a friend not paying a bill I lost the server and had no time to restore a backup
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cmal I guess my plan at the moment is to get full Indieweb-compatibility for Grav and then setup https://cmal.info using Grav :-)
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aaronpk oops! cool. well you can always start small and just launch a basic site with Grav there to start
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aaronpk all you need in order to sign in to the wiki is the rel=me links to a twitter or github profile
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cmal yup, I'll probably do this in the next hours
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cmal I'm already doing this on https://dev.subversive.audio at the moment, tried to login in the wiki, everything works
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cmal but no webmention support yet :(
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aaronpk great!
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cmal but thank you for reminding me, I'll deploy my test Grav setup to https://cmal.info asap :-)
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aaronpk i'm a big fan of making small steps! turns out i've never regretted doing that, and usually regret putting things off in order to do a big launch.
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snarfed incremental++
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Loqi incremental has 5 karma
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cmal :-)
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cmal I also need to fork the events plugin to add mf2 to the events… hope I can get this merged, too :D
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aaronpk nice
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cmal regarding compatibility with other indieweb project, should the content marked as dt-start and dt-end be human-readable as well or would the clients take care of that?
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cmal I'm asking because my event item template looks like this : https://framabin.org/?e3181e7a3f556910#2ssUhP9LBLRgK6WYbs2RxOT56sJKrXdo+LeHt/OdwP4=
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aaronpk the mf2 value should be the full ISO8601 date, but you can use the HTML tags to put a human readable version inside
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aaronpk e.g. <time class="dt-start" datetime="2016-07-04T19:00:00-0700">July 4th 7pm</time>
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cmal okay so I can just put the markup on the start and end hour and it wouldn't matter (as in, pick up the hours to display as start and end dates)
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cmal thank you :)
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aaronpk and you can always test the parsed version here http://pin13.net/mf2/
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cmal thanks
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KevinMarks anther pattern is to put human-friendly 'x hours ago' inside the time, though that makes more sense for dynamic sites
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snarfed yup, bridgy does that
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snarfed (and yes the usual problem is that they go stale if the page is open for a while. ah well.)
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snarfed helps to put the absolute date in the title attr so you see it on hover
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aaronpk also if you screenshot the site you lose all the date info. IMO there are very few good uses of relative dates like that.
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GWG Afternoon
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snarfed "screenshot-ability" UX is a bit of a stretch :P
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snarfed but they're definitely flawed, agreed
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aaronpk people do it all the time tho
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aaronpk especially before twitter added the JS embed, people would screenshot tweets and include them in articles
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snarfed eh, sure, but still a tiny fraction of the amount they just use a product directly
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snarfed worth considering, sure, just low priority imho
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[benatwork] I’ve never heard a single complaint about relative dates in Known. (It uses JS, so the relative dates update while the page is open.)
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aaronpk i think my biggest complaint about relative dates is that it's often ambiguous as to when the thing actually happened. github is probably the worst at this.
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aaronpk e.g. http://werd.io/2016/petition-to-rebrand-great-britain-as-lol-britain "a day ago" was this last night? yesterday morning? <24 hours ago? between 24-48 hours ago?
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aaronpk "a month ago" is the worst tho. is that last calendar month? what if it's the 1st right now, would something yesterday be shown as a month ago?
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aaronpk is it last week? 3 weeks ago? 5 weeks ago?
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aaronpk k i'll stop
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cmal aaronpk +1 relative times and reading times are the two things I find most annoying when I stumble upon a Known blog
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aaronpk reading times are a whole different rant. i literally never find those useful on any site.
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aaronpk i see those have been documented already :)
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aaronpk what is reading time
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Loqi reading time is a feature of posts (usually articles) that indicates the expected amount of time (typically in minutes) that it would take to read the post https://indieweb.org/reading_time
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cmal they're also very relative and very useless unless you can configure your reading speed in your browser (which you can't atm)
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cmal (some people read thrice faster/slower as others)
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aaronpk i remember the first time i saw one, i thought it was being smart and analyzing how much time people spend on the page on average
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cmal if only… :D
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bear this might be of interest to folks - https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/compute/build-a-serverless-private-url-shortener/
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cmal on my concerts page https://dev.subversive.audio/concerts and on other places on the website I have a sidebar displaying the next events; should this be an h-feed as well?
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cmal that would mean on my concerts page I would have two h-feeds with events inside; wouldn't that be confusing for clients to find which one is relevant?
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cmal should my sidebar events display be just a bunch of h-events outside of an h-feed?
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snarfed cmal: lots of people have multiple h-feeds on their sites
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cmal cool, thanks
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cmal although, as it's a sidebar widget it doesn't have its own URL so does that make sense to put it in an h-feed without a u-url?
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cmal I guess it would make sense to display it every where on the site as an h-feed with a u-url pointing to /concerts, and not having it in the sidebar on the concerts page
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snarfed cmal: design is up to you, but h-feed internal to a page is still fine
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aaronpk i don't think any current readers will find a second h-feed on a page, but then again i don't know how many existing readers handle h-event feeds at all
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cmal thank you for the input :)
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snarfed bridgy isn't a reader, but it definitely supports multiple h-feeds
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snarfed also, another example of an embedded events feed: https://shanehudson.net/ (scroll down)
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aaronpk on the same page? cool, didn't know that
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snarfed (missing h-feed, but still)
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aaronpk i only knew about it following the rel=feed URL
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aaronpk (i meant consumer, not reader actually)
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/607
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aaronpk nice
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KevinMarks I think a smart move for relative datetimes would be to never show 1 of anything
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KevinMarks so 0-119 seconds, 2-119 minutes, 2-47 hours 2-13 days 2-8 weeks, 2-23 months 2- years
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KevinMarks also solves the plural problem, especially if you use 'now' for <2 seconds
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KevinMarks 2-199 years 2-9 centuries 2- millennia
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cmal KevinMarks awesome idea, is this already referenced somewhere on the wiki?
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cmal aaronpk what do you think? looks good to me http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdev.subversive.audio
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aaronpk i think so!
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cmal cool ~o~
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cmal I just need to remove a few hard-coded links in the templates (adding a config option) and then I'll PR this on the upstream events plugin
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cmal I'll do this tomorrow, I'll be off for the night
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cmal see you later peeps :)
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aaronpk hehe now my sleep posts include the temperature of my room https://aaronparecki.com/2016/07/07/3/
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KevinMarks what are relative dates?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "relative dates" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KevinMarks relative dates are a way of converting date-times into a human friendly form like "10 minutes ago" or 4 days ago.
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk turns out Mail app on my phone acts as a decent offline posting client via Quill's post-by-email feature
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snarfed lol
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[kevinmarks] Aaron, check I got your comments right. Everyone else, add other relative date examples if you like
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miklb post-by-email. Hmm.
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[shaners] What is Posterous?
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aaronpk uhoh
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aaronpk let's try that again
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aaronpk What is Posterous?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Posterous
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aaronpk thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk (was accidentally case sensitive)
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[shaners] Anyhow, posterous' whole posting ui was email only in the beginning.
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aaronpk oh yeah
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miklb yes. I have a friend from Habari who will be very intrigued by that feature.
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miklb He loved posterous
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tantek another good reason to /selfdogfood, you're not going to artificially slow down your own experience. https://indieweb.org/silo#Artificially_Slow_UI
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tantek good find KevinMarks_
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[kevinmarks] Aaron's question about applying the user calming to indieauth is a good one.