#indieweb 2016-07-08

2016-07-08 UTC
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@m_ott And every link I add gets automatically reposted to Twitter, thanks to a IFTTT RSS recipe, courtesy of @adactio. #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/751210249080676355)
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miklb I've been trying to scope out a service to send webmentions for static sites similar to that recipe
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snarfed miklb: https://telegraph.p3k.io/ ?
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miklb snarfed that could be the mechanism for sending, yes. But would need an interface for the static site to submit their feed to and then poll the feed and parse feed items for links.
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snarfed superfeedr!
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snarfed https://telegraph.p3k.io/superfeedr
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snarfed the docs describe using it to get wms for links to your site, but it can just as easily do the reverse
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miklb how so?
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snarfed are you familiar with superfeedr?
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snarfed https://superfeedr.com/
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miklb mind you, I send webmentions with my static site because I took it upon myself to build a system that allows that. I'd like to offer an option for (primarily GitHub hosted sites) to have a dead simple way to send.
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miklb Yes, I've looked at it.
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miklb didn't realize Medium purchased it
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snarfed pretty recent
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snarfed superfeedr + telegraph is basically what you want. aaronpk already did most of the integration heavy lifting, it just needs a little signup form
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miklb yeah, looks like a month ago
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snarfed alternatively just show people the single telegraph curl command to add to the end of their static site's build process
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miklb snarfed that's the thing, with gh-pages sites, they don't get that option.
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snarfed got it. then yeah, maybe signup form on top of sf + tg
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@mirkov965 Looks like Dave Winer trying to settle some score w/Google.Their early guys know him from https://indieweb.org/RSS_Atom_wars (terrible behavior) @1a3n9 (twitter.com/_/status/751215723557433344)
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@generic_brian @kevinmarks twitter is making me sound very ESL right now :p I should make it to an indieweb meetup soon, been rough couple of years #noTime (twitter.com/_/status/751222021044858882)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-07-08.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week#How_to
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wagle they killed kenny! oh wait
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[shaners] wagle: What are you talking about?
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wagle all got (brutally!) kicked from #indiewebcamp.. *shock* etc etc
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[kevinmarks] With gh pages can you not still trigger a webhook to respond?
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KartikPrabhu for funsies: https://twitter.com/justcreative/status/751094437166604288
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@justcreative Want to know the best DIY website builders out there? @robmening tested all of them. http://websitesetup.stfi.re/website-builders/?sf=ozdvgry&utm_content=buffer69867&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmxsaEKWgAAAU3-.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/751094437166604288)
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miklb [kevinmarks] that's a possibility I hadn't thought of.
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tantek In going through and making screenshots to accompany the written version of "The State of the Indie Web", I'm having to capture the *old* homepage (post theme switch but rep-content editing / restyling!)
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cweiske if you need full-page screenshots maybe phancap can help you - http://phancap.cweiske.de/phancap.phar/#complex
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cweiske http://phancap.cweiske.de/imgcache/tantek.com-9c88c8181ee37d5149742fd9c5d584d0.png
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@FollowIndex The latest The Business & Technology Tango! #indieweb #dwebsummit... - http://followindex.com/the-latest-the-business-technology-tango-indieweb-dwebsummit/ (twitter.com/_/status/751375257693454336)
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voxpelli !tell miklb Check this out regarding using Telegraph to send Webmentions for a static site: https://github.com/aaronpk/Telegraph/issues/13 That's what I'm aiming at
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Morning
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petermolnar !tell adactio is Sept 24-25 fixed for IWC Brighton for sure?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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adactio petermolnar: it's pretty much set in stone now, yes.
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message 1 day, 15 hours ago: HWC is only a week away! Could you add an indie event and FB POSSE copy for your city? Thanks! https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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petermolnar \o=
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petermolnar I meant to say \o/
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-07-08.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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aaronpk much better
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club PDX" http://calagator.org/events/1250470546
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club PDX on Thursday, Jul 14, 12:30am at Ankeny Tap and Table
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aaronpk ugh dumb thing blocked my screenshot script https://aaronparecki.com/2016/07/06/9/
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cmal hey
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aaronpk good morning
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cmal morning aaronpk :)
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GWG I need to figure out how to sell Indieweb to WordPress people next week
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cmal GWG: good luck, are you planning slides or something?
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GWG Not presenting
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petermolnar GWG that's going to be a hard one
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petermolnar what kind of WP people
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petermolnar ?
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tommorris anyone going to mozfest in London in October? thinking we should probably setup an indieweb panel/thing
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aaronpk GWG: is there an opportunity to give a lightning talk
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GWG Not sure
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petermolnar tommorris I might be able to do it
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GWG I don't see lightning talks on the schedule
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GWG I am trying to see what I can do in engagement without giving a speech.
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GWG I'm not the best networker
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GWG But I have an IWC t-shirt
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GWG petermolnar: I'm going to Wordcamp NYC
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petermolnar oh
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petermolnar nice
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GWG I missed it last year
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GWG The issue I have with WordPress is many of the attendees are people who develop sites for businesses, not personal site creators.
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GWG Which is fine, but I don't know what the pitch is to them
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petermolnar GWG: easy, reviews of products on blogs that they could include
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GWG petermolnar: I feel like we should have a wiki page for some possibilities in this area.
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GWG Like /business-brainstorm
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petermolnar sounds valid
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GWG I had one last weekend in response to someone telling me they didn't care about displaying webmentions on their site, they cares about it as a stat.
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GWG care
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[kevinmarks] Posse is a good pitch for small biz,
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cmal GWG: for business devs (the worst people, ever) you may tell them it's a good start to centralize their brand identity and marketing bullshit like this
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cmal that they can interface all their users, public accounts and contents on a single standard platform: the web
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cmal (this is the dream pitch of any communications department :D)
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GWG This is why I want to document this as a page I can reference for notes
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GWG Re the other idea, anyone have a webmention status page they use?
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petermolnar cmal I had a brief note on centralizing yourself on the web and I like the idea of translating that to businses ( https://petermolnar.net/n6jd4h )
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petermolnar GWG what do you mean by status page?
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cmal petermolnar, to be honest I don't like the idea of even trying to talk to these people who fuck up our planet & Internet every day with their profit-driven behaviours, but I get the point of using them as leverage in regards to big CMS support for Indieweb technos, so why not?
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petermolnar whoo, wait, calm down
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GWG petermolnar: Ever seen WP-Stats?
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voxpelli what is generations?
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Loqi Generations in the context of the indieweb refer to clusters of potential IndieWeb adopters in a series of waves that are expected to naturally adopt the indieweb for themselves and then help inform the next generation https://indieweb.org/generations
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petermolnar cmal I don't like the profit-oriented world either; however, not all business is bad business. Those who have a small site and do want to connect to those who might be their target do worth talking to, in my opinion. Those little businesses where there are real people behind it, family businesses, mostly.
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GWG voxpelli: Suggesting premature?
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aaronpk it does seem like a lot of the marketing around companies like tweetdeck / owly / buffer / etc is about having all your brand's communication driven from one place and having everything on twitter/fb/etc pulled back to that dashboard, which sounds an awful like indieweb principles
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cmal I'm not saying all businesses are evil, I'm saying business is, and what ever isn't evil in some businesses has simply nothing to do with business or work (but the human-side of the activity)
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GWG But is this a Gen 4 problem?
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voxpelli GWG: yeah, kind of, I think businesses in general would be between step 2 and 3, maybe fully at 3
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cmal aaronpk, +1
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GWG I'm not going to phrase things in SEO terms...
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voxpelli aaronpk: totally, IndieWeb is very much something businesses would want
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GWG But I have no problem with brand identity vs personal identity
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cmal « Google will probably sooner or later derank non-mf2 websites » said noone ever
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GWG For example, Aaron Parecki the person vs Aaron Parecki the brand
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voxpelli I think it depends on what part one wants to sell
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voxpelli it's probably more of an organization / product perspective on things rather than pure business as well
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GWG This would include non-profits for that reason
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GWG Has Indieweb.org established an identity?
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voxpelli the "business" part is mostly just: it needs to pay for itself – be a good way to spend the money for the organization / company / product
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cmal voxpelli, +1, what would be amazing with the Indieweb for businesses would be just as amazing for autonomous collectives, artistic bands, blogs with multiple authors/cooperators…
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GWG cmal: All areas where we haven't done as much on
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cmal I don't know, is there proper mf2 properties to have a difference between the author(s) of an article and the contributor(s)? Like a collective blog could either have collective authorship marked with or without collaborators, or just have each article's authors without having a "collective identity"
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aaronpk no reason to add mf2 markup unless something is going to consume it in a useful way, so don't worry about it yet
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cmal I guess that's the type of stuff people in news agencies would love
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GWG aaronpk: I want the equivalent Indiemark for Organizations.
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aaronpk one step at a time :)
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Loqi gives GWG the equivalent Indiemark for Organizations
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GWG aaronpk: That is why I said brainstorming.
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aaronpk i suspect a lot of that would be the same as for individuals tho
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KartikPrabhu GWG: has any organisation expressed interest in this?
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voxpelli I think mf2 as it is for h-entries is good enough for newspapers etc, it's the ecosystem and the maturity of the tools that needs to get there
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GWG KartikPrabhu: This is prompted, if you scroll up, by me trying to get interest at Wordcamp next weekend
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voxpelli what is friendly?
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Loqi IndieWeb friendly refers to online services interoperating well with the indieweb by supporting open indieweb formats, protocols, as well as enabling users to transition to their own indieweb sites https://indieweb.org/friendly
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes i have been following the discussion. But it is too hypothetical
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cmal KartikPrabhu, I know some people running autonomous collective blogs who would be interested
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voxpelli The "friendly" page has some stuff on how organizations / products can start to become more IndieWeb friendly and I guess that's a good first step for non-personal sites
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KartikPrabhu cmal: great. then ask them to join us here or ask them if there are particular uses that they would like to have from mf2
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KartikPrabhu otherwise this is all guess-work
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I agree. I'm trying to use it to collect my thoughtw
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cmal KartikPrabhu, I'll try to gather a list of particular usages (already mentioned a few), I'll see what I can come up with ; don't hesitate to ping me on this in the next days as I've got a lot of stuff to do :)
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KartikPrabhu cmal: I won't be able to remind you as I'll be away to a conference in NYC
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GWG KartikPrabhu: If it is next weekend, you could come to Wordcamp
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KartikPrabhu GWG: i'm not staying the wekend I'm afraid
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GWG Oh well
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KartikPrabhu also I no nothing about Wordpress
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KartikPrabhu other than I tried to use it and didn't like it :P
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'll give you an IWC sticker
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voxpelli One thing about the business perspective is that I think they may be reluctant to rely on a free service like Bridgy for the POSSE-flow, so one would have to propose them other self-hosted variants (or have Bridgy go and offer Pro-accounts, but that would be tricky I guess)
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: you can self-host bridgy too i think
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tantek there's been some IndieWeb-thinking for business analogy already regarding the example of Facebook "pages"
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: oh, didn't know, do anyone do that?
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KartikPrabhu not that I know of
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cmal btw is there a way to get IWC stickers in Paris? (through a local acquaintance or through the post)
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tantek businesses use free services all the time
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tantek that eventually charge them for things
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tantek e.g. FB Pages
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voxpelli cmal: go and attend IWC Brighton and maybe someone will bring you one ;)
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cmal voxpelli, I think that's mostly because Bridgy relies on the Google App Engine so most people are relunctant to do that
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aaronpk I'd be happy to mail stickers to anyone running a homebrew website club or indiewebcamp!
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snarfed voxpelli KartikPrabhu cmal: kylewm runs http://bridgy-kwm.appspot.com/ sometimes
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voxpelli tantek: yeah, but if you sell them on independence and then tell them that the entire link between their independence and their audience will be a free and _small_ service
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snarfed mostly for development
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GWG You don't need Bridgy. You can run your own API integration
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GWG Businesses also worry more about content scraping
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cmal voxpelli, I didn't know about Brighton… I may be dropping by there anyway in the next weeks :-)
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aaronpk besides, bridgy isn't storing your responses, so you don't actually lose anything if bridgy stops working
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snarfed (technically it does store them, but that doesn't matter :P)
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[kevinmarks] Depends on the business. If they're selling content they worry about scraping. If they're selling something else, then scraping is free distribution of brochures
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cmal also I guess having a lot of people starting to use Bridgy might get the Facebook people decided to revoke the app sooner or later
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tantek I'm to go out on a limb and say this whole "what is indieweb for businesses" discussion may be getting far more complicated than it needs to
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tantek start with a *really* simple value statement
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tantek that's how we started with IndieWeb in the first place
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tantek e.g. ownyourdata
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KartikPrabhu that ^
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KartikPrabhu also specific use-cases
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tantek for businesses the equivalent here is https://indieweb.org/Facebook_Page
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tantek individuals: why should I have my own website instead of just using my Facebook (profile) ?
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tantek businesses: why should we have our own website instead of just using our Facebook (page) ?
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tantek start there
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tantek everything else will follow
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GWG https://2016.nyc.wordcamp.org/schedule/ These are their topics.
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voxpelli cmal: yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well, snarfed probably don't want high throughput businesses on his instance
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tantek what is business
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "business" yet. Would you like to create it?
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voxpelli tantek++
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snarfed eh, there are plenty of orgs and businesses on bridgy already
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Loqi tantek has 303 karma
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snarfed i welcome any and all users!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: oh really!
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KartikPrabhu nice
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tantek is it strictly just businesses (for profit) ? or organizations in general (incl non-profits, local clubs) ?
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tantek GWG ^^^
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cmal tantek, moral identities (including undeclared collectives)
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snarfed examples: https://brid.gy/twitter/PTALLC , https://brid.gy/facebook/sensiblemn
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GWG sensiblemn was at the IWC Summit
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tantek GWG, are you going to be speaking to an audience of "businesses" that all expect to be motivated by making money with their website(s)? Is that the general idea / framing?
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voxpelli Business is probably too generic of a term to really be useful – it can anything from a small part time job to a large multinational company is a business and their products can be very very different
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GWG tantek: I'm going to be trying to speak to individuals representing such motivations, yes
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tantek voxpelli: that's why I'm asking these questions
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voxpelli tantek, GWG: at WordCamp it's probably rather agencies that in turn build pages for their customers
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cmal what about an individuals/collectives distinction?
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tantek GWG, great, go ahead and start /business-brainstorming if you like as you suggested
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GWG What is business-brainstorming?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "business-brainstorming" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek and I suggest the high-level framing and start with *one* use-case as I stated here at 10:17
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voxpelli snarfed: oh, that's a single account business – I'm thinking businesses that has double digit accounts or more
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tantek !tell aaronpk I'm seeing end of archives for today at 09:59: https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-07-08#t1467997152761000 did something break? an errant character cause an exception?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG business-brainstorming is the discussion of the application of the Indieweb to areas other than a personal/individual websites.
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Loqi ok
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snarfed voxpelli: ptallc and sensiblemn both have FB and twitter, but sure, that's 2, not >10
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GWG I'll expand/update that later
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aaronpk ooh yeah « is on the next line...
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snarfed not sure that >10 account orgs would be meaningfully different, but we're happy to have them too!
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tantek aaronpk: those darn guillemets
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tantek anyway, anyone looking at IndieWeb for businesses, come up with a way of helping businesses replace all their *primary* use of a FB Page: https://indieweb.org/Facebook_Page
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tantek just as we have been coming up with ways of replacing individual *primary* use of social media profiles
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tantek very parallel problem, doesn't require lots of re-thinking/deep diving.
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tantek it's like 95% the same problem
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GWG tantek: I'm not trying to deep dive
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tantek so solve that 95% first, and worry about the 5% of differences later
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voxpelli probably more common for Facebook Pages to already kind of be a manual POSSE
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tantek GWG, I know you're not *trying to* - but it's a common habit in these parts, hard to avoid
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tantek e.g. when you start talking about should a business use Bridgy or self-host it, that's deep diving
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GWG Wasn't me
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GWG I know I prompted it
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GWG I use Bridgy for orgs myself
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tantek GWG, up to you to explicitly identify it and help pull the conversation back up to a high level
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tantek instead of backfeed/POSSE plumbing details ;)
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tantek this is also why I started documenting https://indieweb.org/Facebook_Page from a user-perspective, trying to understand the feature set etc.
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GWG For me, it is how personal identity concepts translate to organization identity
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tantek GWG, great, look at the concrete example of how FB Pages treat identity vs. FB Profiles
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tantek that analogy should work for almost any such organization vs. personal question like that
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tantek and please add to https://indieweb.org/Facebook_Page accordingly
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tantek lots more examples and analysis needed
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GWG tantek: Talking it out did help me work on framing the discussion, which is what I want
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GWG Now I just have to master talking to strangers
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tantek great
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tantek GWG, before that, capture your understanding of framing the discussion on the /business-brainstorming wiki page!
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tantek writing it down first will help you with remembering what to talk to strangers about
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tantek plus you can refer them to a URL for more
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voxpelli in user story form: "I as a company want to provide updates to others about my company"
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tantek and then later add to it :)
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tantek voxpelli: even better if we can make it a selfdogfood-like user story
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tantek sorry you already did that
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KartikPrabhu actually we already have a business that uses indieweb tools.... Known
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tantek voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 81 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: does it itself? can you comment on the withknown homepage with webmention?
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KartikPrabhu i thought you could... let me check
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tantek does withknown post to its own blog, and only POSSE to Twitter? or does it natively post to Twitter?
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snarfed http://stream.withknown.com/
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KartikPrabhu yeah ^
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KartikPrabhu with POSSE and backfeed too
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voxpelli then there's possibly other stories like: "I as a company wants to be able to get interactions on my updates" and "I as a company wants to be able to use my favorite tool to post new updates"
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tantek voxpelli: you don't need to make up user stories - just look at any "social media manager" job description
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tantek and what the company is asking them to do
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voxpelli tantek: yeah, just thinking that those three user stories maps to POSSE, Webmention and Micropub – so one has to check what problem one wants to solve and then look how IndieWeb can solve that
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tantek right
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voxpelli so eg. GWG should probably find a specific problem he wants to pitch to the WordPresses and make a great case about that one alone and leave the rest out of it
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tantek GWG, do you yourself have a WordPress blog for a business (even small) that you can use to experiment with IndieWeb techniques for businesses?
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tantek that kind of business-selfdogfooding may help inform your presentation, and what points matter more
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GWG I manage a few multi author content sites, but no businesses .
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KevinMarks1 Quite an admission: https://twitter.com/stevesi/status/751470655028158464
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@stevesi We once slowed down compiling w/spinning line counter to appear faster —it worked! http://www.fastcodesign.com/3061519/evidence/the-ux-secret-that-will-ruin-apps-for-you by @ctrlzee via @uxdesignweekly (twitter.com/_/status/751470655028158464)
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tantek ugh
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voxpelli how do people POSSE their articles? do everyone just do a POSSE right away or how do you handle the quite common social media behavior of tweeting an article multiple times to adjust for time zones?
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tantek KevinMarks: that's an inaccurate statement of the problem by sinofsky
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GWG My multi author sites have Webmentions installed
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tantek the problem is that if your progress UI is not updating something at 60fps, then the user gets the impression that your code is slow
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tantek whether or not it is actually slow
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tantek and keeping your UI updating at 60fps is a key UX thread vs all other threads design & coding problem
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cmal voxpelli, that's a very good question
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tantek voxpelli: could you document the supposed " common social media behavior of tweeting an article multiple times to adjust for time zones" ?
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tantek I don't think anyone has documented that on the wiki
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tantek what's that even called? "behavior of tweeting an article multiple times"
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tantek (nevermind the time zones bit)
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tantek some would call that spamming
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tantek :P
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tantek waits for the "and some would call those Weasel Words" retort ;)
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voxpelli do it once for europe and once for usa and it's fine ;)
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KartikPrabhu and someone complained that tantek posts too many photos to Twitter!
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voxpelli maybe it's becoming less common that when there's some algorithmic magic involved
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voxpelli but it's related to the fact that when you publish a lot, then there's not a 1:1 between social media sharing and publishing, then fewer things go to social media than are published
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's different - I was posting different photos
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tantek posting the same photo to twitter multiple times would be kind of ridiculous
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KartikPrabhu i know, i was pointing out the "irony"
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tantek but somehow it's acceptable to tweet the *same* article multiple times?!?
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KartikPrabhu exactly^
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voxpelli tantek: you needed to target the europeans ;)
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tantek voxpelli: why do you think I was posting so many photos of Paris? ;)
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tantek that reminds me ... ;)
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voxpelli related is also when eg. a festival announces 10 artists like the local one just did – and posted a photo of each and everyone to Instagram at once rather than spacing it out over time – totally destroying my timeline there
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KartikPrabhu sounds like clustering in the reader
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voxpelli so there's sometimes a disconnect between the posting of an entity and the social sharing of that entity and sometimes the same entity is shared many times over a period of times, sometimes just delayed and sometimes not at all
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: try tell that to a journalist / editor / blogger ;)
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voxpelli or to someone trying to follow interesting news from an opensource projects by following all of the commits from that project to frame it in more selfdogfooding ways
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KevinMarks1 I do sometimes tweet multiple pull quotes from an article, though usually not one on of mine
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KevinMarks1 this is interesting: https://www.alleyinteractive.com/blog/how-medium-became-livejournal-for-publishers/
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tantek voxpelli: I understand that "mass posting" problem but I don't know if we have documented it anywhere
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tantek s/understand/can relate to
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tantek hey Loqi Y U NO SEARCH REPLACE?
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4iATPgx6.jpg
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek oh boy
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tantek lolol I didnt really mean to make Loqi meme himself
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Loqi :)
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tantek has anyone been getting the "Your iCloud storage is almost full." emails? I'm starting to get really annoyed by them, and trying to think of 1) how to document that, 2) how to get off iCloud dependency to avoid this kind email / upsell pressure :P
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tantek feels like a silo problem
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aaronpk I did, and then I upgraded to the $1/mo plan cause I figured that was a cheap way to put off the problem :)
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aaronpk it's mostly just my iphone backup anyway, which is very useful
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tantek "was a cheap way to put off the problem" (!!!!!) that's how they win!
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tantek "rent seeking"
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tantek I think I'm having this problem because of photos / videos which are syncing to iCloud by default since I reset my iPod (to nothing) and updated it to 9.2.x
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tantek so I think the key here is a method of turning that off
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tantek gah
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aaronpk Oh yeah I disabled photo sync to iCloud a long time ago
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tantek did you give you a super scary warning alert?
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tantek about deleting your photo stream or something?
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aaronpk No idea, it was ages ago
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tantek what is iCloud?
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Loqi iCloud is what Apple summarily calls all of its various online services such as iCloud identifiers, online storage, syncing, etc https://indieweb.org/iCloud
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aaronpk huh it seems to have turned itself back on lol
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tantek yeah!
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tantek that's what I'm talking about
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aaronpk now I have 20gb of photos in iCloud
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tantek I think 9.x did that
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tantek whoa
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aaronpk :facepalm:
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tantek glad to know I'm not the only one with this problem
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tantek ok back to trying to write up State of the Indie Web
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tantek before more things change since I gave the talk!
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tantek (high velocity indieweb community is a good problem to have :) )
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aaronpk Apparently iCloud photo storage is different from including photos in iPhone backups
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tantek wow if you can understand what that means, can you add to /iCloud ?
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aaronpk http://i.imgur.com/xrzZP1a.png http://i.imgur.com/rtNm6k1.png
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tantek dang
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tantek aaronpk: however: "Latest Backup: Never" ?!?
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tantek and 5.6GB avail of 50... you're going to fill that faster than you think!
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tantek then you're going to have to pay more monthly right?
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cmal just PR'ed h-feed support for the default Grav theme https://github.com/getgrav/grav-theme-antimatter/pull/65/files :-)
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tantek cmal++ !!!
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Loqi cmal has 1 karma
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miklb g'day IndieWeb
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Loqi miklb: voxpelli left you a message 6 hours, 38 minutes ago: Check this out regarding using Telegraph to send Webmentions for a static site: https://github.com/aaronpk/Telegraph/issues/13 That's what I'm aiming at
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aaronpk Yeah weird, it says latest backup was last night now
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cmal now I need to finish h-card with the events plugin ~o~
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aaronpk im going to move photos off my phone onto my archive storage to reduce the backup size
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[jgarber] @t I’ve noticed an uptick in those emails recently, too. Despite my not having significantly changed my usage behavior on my phone (the only device of mine backing up to iCloud at the moment…).
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GWG I need to move some media files that aren't accessed often on my site before I fill up Linode's allowance. Anyone have any recommendations?
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[kevinmarks] Scheduled tweets about events or sponsorships are a thing businesses do
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aaronpk Amazon S3 is not super expensive
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cmal GWG, just about any storage offer will do, in France I'd go for something like: https://www.pulseheberg.com/cloud/vps-storage
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aaronpk oh also dreamhost doesn't have a storage limit so that's always fun
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cmal but then again with a properly configured nginx (with caching of images fetched from the static backend) you shouldn't run into bandwidth issues
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GWG I was considering offloading to S3. I just wondered if there were other alternatives. I should look at.
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miklb !tell voxpelli thanks, I'm keeping an eye on that thread
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hmm - I'm wondering at what point a user problem (getting emails about running out of storage) becomes a plumbing discussion
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GWG tantek: You mean for -dev?
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tantek yeah
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bear it's a UX problem IMO
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bear because that type of resource issue needs to have good UX so we should always highlight bad examples
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tantek makes sense
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bear how we would implement it for indieweb... now that would go into -dev
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GWG Where do hosting questions go?
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tantek GWG, depends, I think at a highlevel, right here
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GWG Ok
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GWG Ok
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[shaners] kylewm: beep beep
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[kevinmarks] http://dilbert.com/strip/2002-06-08
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cmal GWG with proper etags and expires headers, some nginx magic and at least three super cheap VM/dedicated (like two in Europe/America for caching, one anywhere as backend, and more caching if you can afford) you can end up with your own CDN (you can find some people documenting this on the interwebs)
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GWG cmal: I already have 3 servers. There's a maintenance tax there.
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cmal depends on your setup, but if you associate with a few friends, it might be worth it. say most of your traffic is static data and you have good caching policies, you can end up with ridiculously small servers as backend (even a Raspberry Pi with a decent internet connection)
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cmal good thing with a setup like this is all your edge nodes can be used to store the backend's backups in very different locations
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GWG cmal: I backup using my relatives. But I'm not having them host
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cmal understandably
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cmal cooperative hosting is in my experience much smoother and friendlier than self-hosting (and less-troublesome for lambda users, even with YUNoHost and such)
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GWG I have a cheap NAS installed at their homes I remote to
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tantek what is a NAS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "NAS" yet. Would you like to create it?
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cmal smart :)
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tantek what is an etag?
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Loqi etag is a header sent in an HTTP response to allow future fetches of the same URL to be skipped if nothing has changed https://indieweb.org/etag
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tantek what is an expires header?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "expires header" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is a VM?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "VM" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG A NAS is a Network Attached Storage device, either a purpose-built computer or an embedded system which shares storage over a network.
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk VM is /VPS
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is a caching policy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "caching policy" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk close enough :)
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tantek what is an edge node?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "edge node" yet. Would you like to create it?_
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tantek what is cooperative hosting?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cooperative hosting" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG An expires header is a header sent in an HTTP response to advise how long a client should cache a resource.
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is self-hosting?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "self-hosting" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is cache?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cache" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is lambda?
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Loqi Lambda is a service from Amazon Web Services that runs individual functions of code rather than running a server https://indieweb.org/Lambda
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tantek what is YUNoHost?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "YUNoHost" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk what is tanteking?
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Loqi Tantek-ing is a method of encouraging people to contribute to the wiki by indirectly prompting the person who first mentioned the term to create a short wiki dfn page for it https://indieweb.org/tanteking
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tantek technically I'm not prompting "the person" explicitly in any of these instances ;)
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cmal :-)
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GWG Can I have my own verb?
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tantek GWG, you really don't want one, trust me on this
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[shaners] tantek: Can you do that in -chat or something instead of flooding the main channel, please?
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tantek usually it's an indication of some sort of unconventional focused/consistent bordering on obsessive behavior
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[shaners] or -dev
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cmal I'll try to document this when I have time, but right now I'm busy as it is with Indieweb support for Grav and writing a post telling the whole community why to support Indieweb technos out of the box. If somebody feels like taking a peek or contributing : https://mypads.framapad.org/mypads/?/mypads/group/indieweb-lgaz17g5/pad/view/intro-0ab0179m
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tantek shaners - nope. "what is" is important for the main channel help remind and make it more clear that this channel is meant to be approachable (instead of being intimidated by jargon), and that it's always ok to ask "what is"
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tantek s/channel help/channel to help
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[shaners] I don’t think a wall of “what is” call and response is approachable.
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tantek sure, a series of such is helpful as an indicator that too much uninterrupted jargon-specific conversation has occured, and that's ok to interrupt that to ask for all the clarifications
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miklb at what point is discussing the web not jargon-specific?
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tantek miklb, hopefully at the beginning
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tantek jargon is usually an indicator of plumbing-focus
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tantek whereas we try to focus first on user needs, user experience, etc. per /principles
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tantek (there's plenty of UX jargon too, but we haven't seen that be a problem here yet. I'll be happy to see UX jargon more than plumbing jargon if that ever happens)
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tantek shaners, your point about "flood" and "wall of" illustrates a likely difference in UX between mobile Slack (assumption) and laptop/IRC client. Thanks for helping point that out.
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[shaners] tantek: I’m on laptop Slack. Even there it was two full “page downs” worth of “what is”.
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tantek shaners, good to know
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tantek aaronpk, I'm using those screenshots on the /iCloud page
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tantek feel free to replace with wiki uploads if you like!
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tantek shaners, I'm going to take some time to think/reflect on how can we document the points you made in terms of encouraging better IRC / chat experiences. I'm not sure how to document them yet, but I do think there's something there that is worth documenting.
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[shaners] :+1::skin-tone-2:
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cweiske Does someone know a punycode domain that's in use which has an existing file that has a unicode character in its name?
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tantek cweiske: thanks for the screenshot tip - may try to use that in the future!
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tantek what is punycode?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "punycode" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek self-limits to one "what is" per several minutes at least ;)
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cweiske ah. I can just open my own täst-subdomain
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cweiske that'll do it.
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neilpdx hello from Portland Oregon
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GWG Hello, neilpdx.
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GWG I visited your city last month. It was very hot, but nice.
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neilpdx what's new GWG
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neilpdx it was hot for a few days i think. but it's cooled down now
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GWG neilpdx: You'll have to narrow the context there a bit. Lots is new
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GWG Webmentions, micropub...I bought a new hard drive...Depends on the area.
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GWG If it is the hard drive, it is a bit off topic though.
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GWG And I'm trying to figure out how to talk Indieweb at Wordcamp this weekend
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neilpdx GWG: nice! that's what I meant. what's new and exciting. and that sounds like an exciting event.
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neilpdx I used to work with WP hosting, and, I don't recommend WP at all, but I see that there is a potential audience for you there.
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neilpdx In a way, I'm probably going to go back to doing WP (need money)
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GWG neilpdx: I am embedded in the WordPress contingent in this community.
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neilpdx very nice
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neilpdx is that your "job"?
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GWG So, we continue to try and build on top of WordPress
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GWG neilpdx: If so, someone owes me a big check
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GWG I'm in a different field by day
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neilpdx oh i see. do you remember "Posterous" at all?
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neilpdx I had a posterous blog long ago, and I miss it
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Loqi misses it too
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neilpdx yeah.... is what Indieweb trying to do ... is that like making a posterous type of service?
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GWG I don't remember what it looked like
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GWG neilpdx: Could you describe what you mean?
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miklb funny enough there was a discussion yesterday about Posterous. aaronpk's Quill allows to post by email to micropub
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GWG I remember only the name.
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neilpdx GWG: would you like to offer the public a way to have hosted blogs that they do not have "tied" to a complex combination of hosting, plugins, and software?
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GWG neilpdx: No
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neilpdx And I know you probably won't know what I mean, but, it was a lot easier and faster to use for writing blog posts and posting pictures, and other media.
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neilpdx ok, that was what I was curious about. I still don't understand what indieweb is trying to achieve but I will keep on digging
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GWG Simple is not against what we are about here, we are more individualists
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GWG We want to work together to build things so it doesn't matter who hosts your site, but it can talk to my site, even if I'm on WordPress and you wrote yours in Jekyll.
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neilpdx miklb: thanks! did you know that WP offers post by e-mail but it is terrible. very hard to configure and even when configured, there are all sorts of rules for getting it to post instead of dropping the message.
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neilpdx I see. That's neat. I'll keep on digging.
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GWG We also believe people should post on something under their control, not someone else's.
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miklb neilpdx yes, I'm quite familiar with WP and its post-by-email. Another a feature that never quite caught traction but still lingers
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neilpdx GWG: right i see your point.
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GWG So, hosted solutions are fine, but embedding yourself in a place where you can't move your site and get locked in is bad.
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GWG neilpdx: When Posterous stopped supporting you, did you lose the content you wrote there?
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neilpdx Yes and no.
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neilpdx They gave me an export file but I never figured out how to import it to WP.
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neilpdx I just did not spend much time on it. But they gave me adequate time to get the export which included zip files of the pictures and sound files
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neilpdx the only way i can really see the old content is by using the way back machine
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neilpdx would you like to see?
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KevinMarks I'm helping someone with a typepad blog at the moment, and it is notably fiddly.
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GWG neilpdx: So, that is one of the things we believe in here. You shouldn't lose your site because of one company.
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neilpdx right
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GWG So, we have two concepts, POSSE and PESOS
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GWG Post on Your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere
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GWG Or basically, no matter where you post, have an official copy under your control
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GWG PESOS would be the reverse. Post Elsewhere Syndicate to Your Own Site.
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neilpdx I see.
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GWG Or we do this in here
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GWG What is PESOS?
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Loqi PESOS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate (to your) Own Site https://indieweb.org/pesos
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GWG We've automated asking questions in the chat to some degree
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neilpdx :D
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GWG What is Posterous?
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Loqi Posterous.com is a blogging silo that has announced it will "turn off" on on 2013-04-30 https://indieweb.org/Posterous
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GWG I guess someone did answer that
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-07-08.html
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aaronpk hm i thought i saw some photos from the last Nürnberg HWC
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miklb really seems like the change to indieweb.org should have been more prominent in that newsletter
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk uh, quick someone write a blog post
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miklb realizes its kinda late to mention that
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GWG miklb: What? A picture of aaronpk pulling a ceremonial switch?
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk i have a plan
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miklb isn't there some wiki page that discussed the reasoning behind the move?
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GWG aaronpk: What thoughts passed through your head at that historic moment?
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snarfed "i'm hungry"
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snarfed (just a guess)
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GWG snarfed: I would have gone for "more coffee"
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "rename to IndieWeb.org" https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb (from https://aaronparecki.com/2016/07/08/11/)
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aaronpk there now at least that should show up in the newsletter
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miklb 👍
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aaronpk can someone else update this to past tense? https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb
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miklb you mean the page title?
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aaronpk the intro paragraph and the sections too
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aaronpk so that it doesn't sound like a current proposal anymore
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-07-08.html
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miklb I tried, but I sincerely get anxiety editing a wiki page. Sorry
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aaronpk that's a start, thanks!
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neilpdx do any of you prefer Django for hosting blogs? with an EmberJS front end?
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[shaners] What is Django?
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[shaners] Loqi...
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Loqi Django is a python web application framework used in some IndieWeb projects https://indieweb.org/Django
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Loqi who, me?
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[shaners] neilpdx: Looks like a couple are using or have usign Django for their sites.
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[shaners] https://indieweb.org/Django#IndieWeb_Examples
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neilpdx nice
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neilpdx i like it better than WP :)
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KevinMarks1 what is ember?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ember" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[shaners] Great. If you build something using it, be sure to add yourself to that section of the page.
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[shaners] What is EmberJS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "EmberJS" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[shaners] neilpdx: I ask, because sometimes we have a page by a similar name.
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neilpdx oh thanks i'd love to
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aaronpk neilpdx: hello! think you'll be able to make it to homebrew website club next week? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-13-homebrew-website-club
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neilpdx i know very little so I would not feel comfortable putting my foot into my mouth yet. but in my opinion the great advantage is being able to have the website update asynchronously. If you would care to see a slide presentation about this subject please let me know
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[shaners] EmberJS is a JavaScript framework that uses MVC (model view controller) in the browser (using Mustache as its templating language).
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Loqi ok
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neilpdx Hi AaronPK : thanks for that. I was looking at that. I'm not positive that I'll be there but I will try to do that
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aaronpk great!
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[shaners] ember is EmberJS
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Loqi ok
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hs0ucy [shaners]: It's close but it's not really Mustache : http://handlebarsjs.com/
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neilpdx Shaners thanks! Django also uses MVC .... if i understand correctly. The point of using EmberJS on top of that is to keep the browser from reloading the page.
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[shaners] You are correct that Django (much like Rails) is an MVC server side framework.
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[shaners] The point of using EmberJS is different things to different people in different situations. :wink:
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KevinMarks1 did you look at Ember Fastboot as well?
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[shaners] One of the (sometimes) benefits of a front end framework like Ember is to keep the browser from reloading with every click.
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neilpdx Kevin Marks : no I have not. I will do that now.
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[shaners] But some people (myself included) would consider preventing the browser from reloading on click breaking the browser’s behavior.
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neilpdx Kevin Marks: i don't understand the website for Ember Fastboot..... I thought with Ember that you are always running it through node.JS?
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[shaners] neilpdx: But go forth! And build your site however you want with whatever tech you want. That’s the beauty of the indie web. You get to choose.
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snarfed choice++
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Loqi choice has 2 karma
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[shaners] neilpdx: No. EmberJS is *just* the front end framework. You can use it with Rails/Django/Node/etc.
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neilpdx I see. for some reason the tutorial that I am working through has node already in it.
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[shaners] aaronpk: Loqi feature request:
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[shaners] EmberJS << http://emberjs.com
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[shaners] I’d love that to get tacked onto the wiki page in the See Also section
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk interesting
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[shaners] neilpdx: That’s fine. You *can* use node with Ember. But you don’t *have* to.
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neilpdx i see
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aaronpk I do often make edits that just add a line to see also...
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[shaners] Right?
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[shaners] And then we can always wiki garden them into fuller sections or into a different place
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cmal good night
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Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-07-08.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/751525021718179841/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/751525021718179841)
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aaronpk oh darn, that tweeted the wrong photo
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aaronpk hopes mailchimp follows the redirect on the RSS feed because he forgot to update that in the site
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neilpdx i found out about your organization and meetings through calagator by the way
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neilpdx and thanks for the hard work.
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bear neilpdx++ for starting down the IndieWeb path
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Loqi neilpdx has 1 karma
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neilpdx yay!
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Loqi :D
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petermolnar I checked a few unicode characters, just for fun, and tried to check for Ƥͼʈͼӷ.com as a domain; it kind of looks like this breaks the search of registrars, as in none which I tried so far returned a result
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petermolnar I thought international domains where old enough to support non-astral-plane unicode
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KevinMarks1 the fastboot idea was to run ember server-side so that it can not by js;dr any more
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neilpdx peter molnar: there is a domain name encoding system that i am aware of ... i think it is mainly used for chinese characters.
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neilpdx Kevin Marks: i see. i think it is already being used in the tutorial that I am using.
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petermolnar neilpdx I have registered domain names with á and é characters in them; not certain it would eat ű or Å‘ (Hungarian special ones)
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neilpdx i see
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petermolnar yep, ű is fine, so I guess ő as well, at least for .hu
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petermolnar interesting
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petermolnar so the international domain name thing appears to be restricted
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tantek darn, missed the newsletter for my post. How can a 20 minute talk take so long to write out as a blog post?
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[shaners] tantek: I can believe. I usually put ~4 hours of prep time into every 1 minute of talk time.
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tantek yeah this is going to be a long one when I'm done typing. oh well. I hope it feels like a quick skimmable reminder to folks who were there, and hopefully each subsection is small enough to quickly chew before moving onto the next.
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aaronpk [shaners]: it's done
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[shaners] Dark_Matter << http://darkmatterapp.com
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Loqi ok
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[shaners] aaronpk++ Brilliant! Thanks!
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Loqi aaronpk has 180 karma
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aaronpk I read mediawiki api docs so you don't have to 😂
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[shaners] THANKS BOO!
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[shaners] http://indieweb.org/Loqi needs `<<` added to it
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk done
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[shaners] aaronpk: is the new chat only logs still or is there a way to typey type from chat.indieweb.org?
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aaronpk still read only. i'll probably make progress this weekend.
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begriffs I just wrote an article about the indie web, and wondering if anyone would like to review it quickly before I publish it more widely?
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begriffs https://begriffs.com/posts/2016-07-08-returning-original-social-network.html
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[shaners] kthx apk
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KevinMarks1 hm, my woodwind instance is not working any more.
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KevinMarks1 also it's trying to load jquery from a path that isn't served
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KevinMarks1 well, it's not quite about the web; indie email