#indieweb 2016-07-14

2016-07-14 UTC
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tantek hey HWC SF folks - I've setup reception/security for the quiet writing hour, feel free to message here when you show up
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tantek am in another meeting til ~18:00
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gRegorLove Oh yeah. HWC tonight. Heh.
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tantek yes mr organizer :)
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gRegorLove It's been one of those days where my schedule is all off. Haven't missed anything, thankfully.
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tantek gRegorLove: I hear you. time and even light sensing is altered for me since YxYY this past weekend
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snarfed so i'm trying to understand a bridgy bug/feature request from someone who wants to use fragment urls for entries inside a feed as permalinks to backfeed to
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/681
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snarfed i honestly don't fully understand the request, and it doesn't help that i can't find his markup example on his site...but i'd love input if anyone knows of precedent or has ideas!
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tantek !tell KevinMarks greetings and welcome to MozSF!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Loqi?
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek Yes thank you Loqi
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Loqi :)
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tantek hey KevinMarks
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KevinMarks Hiya
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: greetings and welcome to MozSF!
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KartikPrabhu Loqi messages?
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tantek KevinMarks, how is quiet writing hour going?
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gRegorLove Hello from Bellingham HWC, population: 1.
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KevinMarks It's quiet and 3 of us are writing
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tantek great!
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tantek ok coming downstairs to start the interactive part of HWC SF
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aaronpk hello from pdx: currently 3 and one more on the way
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tantek metaphorically waves from the podium
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: welcome to homebrew website club SF - June was very eventful; this month we moved to http://indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/753404911333900288)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: so if you go to https://indieweb.org/ now you will get redirected to http://indieweb.org which looks less like a wiki (twitter.com/_/status/753405043378970624)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: this is the result of a lot of work by people filing issues and edit the homepage - see the history https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history (twitter.com/_/status/753405414742626305)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: this is a huge improvement over what we had before, especially on mobile (twitter.com/_/status/753405561392291840)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we made the call to action clearer, and simplified the events sections (twitter.com/_/status/753405916825944065)
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@dangillmor The Indie Web -- creating a decentralized alternative to our increasingly centralized tech -- has new online home: http://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/753406095104708608)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: also, the chat logging has been updated- to chat go to https://indieweb.org/irc/2016-07-13 - to read chat got to https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-07-13#bottom (twitter.com/_/status/753406203485679616)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we have move the more developer-related discussion to https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-07-13#bottom (twitter.com/_/status/753406343361495040)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: wiki notifications moved to the dev channel, along with the protocol notifcations about webmention etc to dev (twitter.com/_/status/753406553986887681)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: related channels on microformats, bridgy and known are also show in the chat log page (twitter.com/_/status/753406728130224128)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: if a tab you are not in has an update the tab turns yellow (twitter.com/_/status/753406828176928768)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: if you have any suggestions to improve the homepage further there is a github issues link: https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues (twitter.com/_/status/753407380646400000)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: Indiewebcamp Brighton is confirmed for September 24-25 https://indieweb.org/2016/Brighton (twitter.com/_/status/753407536242524160)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: if you want to organise or help with an indiewebcamp in your city go to https://indieweb.org/planning (twitter.com/_/status/753407785757503489)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: I gave up twitter and move back to the original social network, email (twitter.com/_/status/753408480850173952)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: I wrote a pots about setting up and understanding DNS and securing it https://begriffs.com/posts/2016-07-08-returning-original-social-network.html (twitter.com/_/status/753408620759572484)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: you can set up SPF, DKIM and DMARC records in your DNS to secure your own email (twitter.com/_/status/753408940512251905)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: Email I affectionately call the “cockroach of the internet,” because it is older than the web yet we still use it (twitter.com/_/status/753409238643474432)
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aaronpk donpark donp.org
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: I'm now wondering if I should set up a usenet server too, as that is even more decentralized than email (twitter.com/_/status/753409566063329280)
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aaronpk rml.donp.org - activity stream of purchases
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aaronpk categories for eating out, groceries, etc
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aaronpk for daily budgeting
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aaronpk it has indieauth signin, anyone can sign in
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aaronpk you can add your own entries
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aaronpk rml - run my life
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aaronpk what i want is actual activitystream json output
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: I can see how gmail makes thing more easy, but you can be penalised for good behaviour like unsubscribe headers (twitter.com/_/status/753409876508942336)
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aaronpk i want that to be actual activitystream sepc
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aaronpk next up neil
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aaronpk neil - djangopdx.com
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aaronpk personal website and business website at the same time
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aaronpk today just started messing around with amazon s3
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: thanks joe, you shouls add yourself to the https://indieweb.org/silo-quits paeg for leaving twitter (twitter.com/_/status/753410334094921729)
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aaronpk trying to come up with a tutorial about correlation as a baby step towards machine learning
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aaronpk going to put that on my website soon
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I finally got around to blogging the text version of the keynote I gave at the indieweb summit http://tantek.com/2016/190/b1/state-of-indieweb-summit (twitter.com/_/status/753410837470179329)
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aaronpk bret
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aaronpk bret.io
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aaronpk haven't done much on the site recently
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aaronpk i wrote this thing called hyperserv (on my github)
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aaronpk it's a http framework in node
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aaronpk goal is to switch my site to hosting on that
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: do you have webmention on your site? (twitter.com/_/status/753411252978868224)
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aaronpk also been learning about ubiquity edge router, powerful for doing vpn and dynamic dns stuff to host from home
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aaronpk now i'm able to host things reliably at home
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aaronpk been pretty reliable for a few months
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aaronpk maxogden
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aaronpk maxogden.com
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aaronpk but i haven't done anything on there for a while
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I have an rsvp on my site http://tantek.com/2016/194/t1/homebrew-website-club-mozsf that shows up on kevin's site http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-sf-2016-07-13 (twitter.com/_/status/753411522806837248)
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@alenevince RT kevinmarks: #indieweb t: if you want to organise or help with an indiewebcamp in your city go to https://indieweb.org/planning (twitter.com/_/status/753411565374869505)
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aaronpk but lately i've been working on a spiritual successor to RSS, or another way of thinking about iti s a successor to md5
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aaronpk if you're distributing content online people use rss.xml or md5 files to get the feed or verify the contents
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aaronpk i've been writing up a data specification for a data sync project
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aaronpk a file format for how you'd put an md5 hash of a data set, and you want people to access it randomly, so instead of downloading the whole thing people could download the metadata and then download only the range they want
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aaronpk if you only get the metadata then you can get the pieces over a p2p network
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Joe Nelson: haas there been much webmention spam? (twitter.com/_/status/753411919348920320)
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aaronpk it also allows you to update the dataset metadata you don't have to regenerate the whole metadata again
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: so far only through backfed spam from twitter via brid.gy Vouch will help with that. (twitter.com/_/status/753412023397081088)
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aaronpk it's a data sync format for the web, where you can subscribe to the data
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aaronpk kind of like couchdb replication
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tantek aaronpk: or maybe camlistore?
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aaronpk all built on top of http so you can fetch it with a regular javascript http fetch
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aaronpk download the metadata and hashes from the primary webserver, but then you can download the actual content from other web servers and you can still verify it
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Ruxton the metadata should break large files into multiple pieces, so you can http partial-content and range request updates to them
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aaronpk i stopped transcribing but yes that's the idea
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aaronpk and each piece is verifiable from the md5 hashes you get from the source
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sknebel relay message: don't use MD5 for new stuff, read up on better hash functions
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: you can set up dynamic webmentions on your static site with http://webmention.herokuapp.com (twitter.com/_/status/753414381178945536)
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Ruxton yea
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: webmention is now a w3c candidate implemention - webmention.rockshas test for you to try and report to w3c (twitter.com/_/status/753414638163922944)
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Ruxton there a lots of implementations of tech close to this also
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: try your site with https://webmention.rocks/ then do an implementation report here https://github.com/w3c/webmention/tree/master/implementation-reports (twitter.com/_/status/753414839796637696)
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aaronpk aaronpk:
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aaronpk i haven't gotten much done on my own site lately
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aaronpk i've been working on the indieweb community sites
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tantek (done with demos here at HWC SF, now having informal in-person conversations)
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aaronpk we moved the domain from indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org in the last couple weeks
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aaronpk and did a redesign of the home page to make it look friendlier and more accessible to new people
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aaronpk and have been working on moving the chat logs so that they support multiple channels and are bridged with slack
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aaronpk so you can join the chat from IRC, web and Slack and it's all one chat
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aaronpk shane did a great job redesigning the logo based on the original version
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tantek finding out Mozilla is a "gym" and a "poke stop"
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aaronpk of course it is
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@Walter_NGOUAMO https://t.co/DKp51opI1x: #indieweb @t: I have an rsvp on my site... http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-sf-2016-07-13 (twitter.com/_/status/753415857104007168)
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Ruxton indiemon?
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tantek we were just talking about indie pokemon - and I just said moments ago indiemon!
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@alenevince #indieweb t: I have an rsvp on my site http://tantek.com/2016/194/t1/homebrew-website-club-mozsf that shows up on kevin's site http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-sf-2016-07-13 (twitter.com/_/status/753419199624704000)
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Ruxton we're having enough trouble getting people out of facebook/twitter.. good luck getting them to play indiemon :P
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tantek just like people "liking" each others stuff (tweets, photos etc.), there are ways of creating scarcity even in indieweb stuff
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tantek what is Pokemon Go?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pokemon Go" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Ruxton it's essentially just do stuff @ location + random chance
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tantek not quite
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tantek there are more specific dynamics than that
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Ruxton but the very basics are that
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Ruxton once you have those, the specifics are dependent on the game (ingress vs. pokemon go for example)
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tantek the "server" creates pokemon at specific locations, or designates venues as either blue spinny thing "stop" that produce items, or a "gym"
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tantek clients can pickup a pokemon, or use the spinny thing that generates items that you can optionally pickup, or you can install a lure module on a stop
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aaronpk The cool part is all the locations were created by players of the previous iteration of this game, Ingress
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tantek creating a pokemon is kind of like creating a geofenced post
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Ruxton actually the locations came from Field Trip first
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Ruxton then ingress
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tantek collecting a pokemon is kind of like bookmarking it
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@antoniomarvel The latest Tuitorialist! http://paper.li/antoniomarvel?edition_id=b0d13670-496e-11e6-bfc9-0cc47a0d1609 Thanks to @srburgoa @ajcorchado @maxquintana #indieweb #díamundialdelrock (twitter.com/_/status/753423133118431232)
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tantek where bookmarking it removes it from the geofence
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aaronpk The lures are interesting
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aaronpk a way to tell the system to create more Pokemon in this area
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tantek locations being created by players is very indieweb, and before both of those people created venues in Dodgeball and Foursquare and now Swarm
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Ruxton tantek: Someone made a game on top of Foursquare called Tankwars or something
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tantek aaronpk, so a lure is kind of like a geofenced questions
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tantek s/questions/question
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tantek like stackoverflow
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Loqi tantek meant to say: s/question/question
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tantek that lures answers
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tantek s/answers/answer posts
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Loqi tantek meant to say: that lures answer posts
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tantek wat
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tantek geofenced posts work as indiemon
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tantek e.g. I could have /venue posts on my site that you could view anywhere any time (like indie equivalent of foursquare venues)
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tantek then each venue could indicate, hey there are geofenced posts at this venue!
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tantek then when you view my indie venue while being physically near that venue (via my site using W3C Geolocation API), then that indie venue post reveals the additional geofenced notes!
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tantek then if you bookmark one of those geofenced notes, my geofenced note when receiving the bookmark-of webmention, could decided to disappear from the geofence, while maintaining its permalink, thus only allowing one person to "collect" that geofenced note
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tantek (would have to verify that the bookmark-of post is itself made by the person at that venue)
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Ruxton ahh god
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tantek (that could be interesting for my server to somehow verify the location of the bookmark-of sender)
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Ruxton you got serious :P
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miklb Ruxton++
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Loqi ruxton has 1 karma (1 in this channel)
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tantek no need for crypto, hashing, blockchain or any other fancing plumbing
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tantek s/fancing/fancy
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Loqi tantek meant to say: no need for crypto, hashing, blockchain or any other fancy plumbing
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tantek and voila, posting and collecting indiemon brainstorm complete!
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Ruxton that's an IRC drop mic right there
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@kevinmarks Notes from tonight's Homebrew Website Club on my site at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-07-13.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753425867716435968)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from tonight's Homebrew Website Club on my site at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-07-13.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-tonights-homebrew-website-club-on-my-site-at
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@Metacaug The MetaCAug! http://paper.li/Metacaug/1455129644?edition_id=cab01470-4974-11e6-b7b0-0cc47a0d15fd H/T @1mentat @sarahvangelder @elizlk #indieweb #news (twitter.com/_/status/753434122836647936)
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snarfed max ogden came to pdx hwc! cool! he's great
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rrix Nice
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rrix Love Max
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snarfed woo, milestone, bridgy hit 1000 unit tests!
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snarfed \o/
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snarfed been looking forward to this
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[kevinmarks] Wow
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GWG snarfed: I can't live up to that example.
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snarfed GWG: aww of course you could over enough time...but you don't have to!
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snarfed not a competition
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GWG snarfed: I wrote some
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/wordpress-webmention/blob/unittests/tests/test-discover.php
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snarfed hey, awesome!
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GWG I wrote that a few weeks back.
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GWG It is a start.
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GWG I want to look at it again because I want to look at logging in light of my recent problems
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[kevinmarks] Feedparser is up to nearly 4000 iirc
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GWG snarfed: I am thinking of storing log data in the post meta.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Thanks @snarfed, brilliant find as I wouldn't have thought of it. I took out the first one which I'd had hiding in a widget" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/thanks-snarfed-brilliant-find-as-i-wouldnt-have-thought-of
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed++ for great brid.gy support
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Loqi snarfed has 238 karma (1 in this channel)
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: there isn't a chance that one of the IndieWeb plugins for WordPress throws in <link rel="webmention" href="http://sitename.com/?webmention=endpoint" /> into headers to automatically identify a webmention endpoint is there?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Yes, the webmention plugin does it automatically.
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GWG Why? Did you embed it manually?
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[chrisaldrich] A ha! I was losing my mind trying to find where it was coming from as I thought I'd put it in manually. I'm guessing it also throws in <link rel="http://webmention.org/" href="http://boffosocko.com/?webmention=endpoint" /> too?
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[chrisaldrich] I'd had put in <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a> manually ages ago and it was apparently causing issues with Brid.gy sending webmentions properly since the endpoint was specified multiple times.
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed: You might consider updating the brid.gy FAQ for WordPress.ORG use, or if you prefer I can do it
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I think pfefferle figured most people wouldn't do it themselves.
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[chrisaldrich] Smart thinking for moving forward, but be aware in the near term that it may cause people with the bridgy snippet above to have webmentions failing sproradically until it's fixed.
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GWG I think it is a Bridgy issue more than a webmention plugin issue, in my opinion. Will be aware.
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snarfed [chrisaldrich]: funny, you think you added that manual endpoint link ages ago?
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snarfed i only added it to the docs (https://brid.gy/about#endpoint) maybe a few weeks ago. before then, the only place it showed up was in the wordpress.com signup flow
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snarfed regardless, glad we figured it out!
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GWG snarfed: I just don't think it should be removing the
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GWG endpoint added automatically.
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snarfed of course not
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[chrisaldrich] It's been a really long month... I know the code actually looked really familiar and I'd discussed something similar with you a while back about it in relation to the FAQ page.
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snarfed [chrisaldrich]: hah, yes! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/673
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@infoineed The latest The info i need Daily! http://paper.li/infoineed?edition_id=de349430-4983-11e6-bfc9-0cc47a0d1609 Thanks to @AboutKidsHealth @jimboykin #indieweb #contentmarketing (twitter.com/_/status/753461274185531392)
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[chrisaldrich] Two months makes me feel even better (and not quite so old....) :slightly_smiling_face:
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@NandoExpo The latest Amaneciendo en Tierras Manchegas! http://paper.li/NandoExpo/1358948318?edition_id=2aed4690-4985-11e6-a975-002590a5ba2d Thanks to @bobblakley @joshcorman @rogueclown #clus #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753463626921631744)
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pfefferle good morning
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Loqi guten morgen
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@cveira The latest Picks for Today!! http://paper.li/cveira?edition_id=298582c0-4991-11e6-b7b0-0cc47a0d15fd Thanks to @oising @lajava77 @mtholfsen #chefconf #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753485227763326976)
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petermolnar morning
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Loqi good morning!
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petermolnar http://nicolasgallagher.com/pure-css-gui-icons/ - so CSS or SVG? :)
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prtksxna petermolnar: This is really cool. I do however see whitelines where some of the shapes are touching on FF on Fedora.
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petermolnar this one hit hacker new today: http://a.singlediv.com/
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petermolnar that is why I looked around for icons
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petermolnar there is this one as well: https://saeedalipoor.github.io/icono/
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@rmesquita Sertão está nas ruas http://paper.li/rmesquita/1382634353?edition_id=f8b7f2f0-49b2-11e6-9f1e-002590a5ba2d News, far more than art, is artifact @katelosse @matthewshirts @JSKstanford #indieweb #smm (twitter.com/_/status/753546132844929024)
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@rmesquita Sertão está nas ruas http://linkis.com/paper.li/rmesquita/a3C4m News, far more than art, is artifact @katelosse @matthewshirts @JSKstanford #indieweb #smm (twitter.com/_/status/753546137420849152)
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@BillSeitz The latest The Bill Seitz Daily! http://paper.li/BillSeitz?edition_id=6e360100-49b5-11e6-b14e-0cc47a0d1609 Thanks to @BeepBoopHQ @zaidhassan @mattmoog #success #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753550564903051264)
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aaronpk omg i think i am going to blacklist "the latest * daily" from the twitter search
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aaronpk so useless
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aaronpk oh even easier, paper.li
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sknebel 👍
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[kevinmarks] Do the css tricks like that render as well and fast as SVG?
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petermolnar I haven't found any data on that
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petermolnar it would be interesting to test it
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gRegorLove paper.li is one of the reasons I'm jealous of the TweetBot app. It lets you filter out tweets by source.
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gRegorLove There may be Android Twitter apps that do that too, but I'm pretty well settled on the official app.
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rMdes gRegorLove, you should meet Fenix App on the android store
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rMdes best android twitter app, ever. swipe columns for tags, lists, user, ability to mute words, filter users, favorite users & the usual native twitter stuff
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rMdes you will never think about tweetbot again
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gRegorLove Heh
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rMdes the app is not free, true, but it's more than worth it
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gRegorLove It looks nice. I might try it.
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rMdes what i really love is ability to like or RT from another twitter account by long pressing the RT button
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rMdes so easy to manage multiple accounts without having to switch account, find the tweet again, rt..on the official app
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gRegorLove I've probably been leery about third party apps after how hostile Twitter became towards developers several years ago
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rMdes i understand, i was too
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gRegorLove But here we are and they still exist, so maybe
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rMdes but it seems twitter is now friendlier, at least fenix never suffered from it
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rMdes using it since like 2 years
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gRegorLove Cool
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rMdes another lovely feature is real time stream, you can actually have a mini tweetdeck in your pocket
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rMdes beware to configure it though, otherwise it can explode you data
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rMdes your*
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rMdes my setup is 200 tweets at each sync, every 5 minutes. you can sync 1000 tweets every 5 minutes, but this is where your data plan is going to spike
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rMdes also tweaking it to only download full image on wifi is worth selecting.
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lukasros I assume the price of that app keeps the total number of users way beyond Twitter's access token limit.
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lukasros s/beyond/below
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Loqi lukasros meant to say: I assume the price of that app keeps the total number of users way below Twitter's access token limit.
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aaronpk it would sure be nice if someone made a nice app like that that consumed h-entry and replied via micropub :)
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rMdes dunno what is the current limit, but that app has around 50 thousand downloads
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rMdes & the beta version between 50 & 100.000 downloads
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lukasros I think it's 100000.
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rMdes only existing code that I know of being open source is http://twidere.mariotaku.org/
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rMdes https://github.com/TwidereProject/Twidere-Android
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rMdes also available on F-Droid
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rMdes & for a free open source app, twidere is very very decent already
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aaronpk say that gives me an idea
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rMdes heh already support GNU social
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tonious 
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aaronpk oh interesting, it looks like gnusocial supports AtomPub and a Twitter-compatible API https://gnusocial.net/doc/twitterapi
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aaronpk which is probably how that app was able to support gnusocial so easily
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[benatwork] That was the original genesis, right? He cloned the Twitter API
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aaronpk I remember several services supported the twitter API so you could point twitter apps at them
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aaronpk back in the day when apps had a configurable base URL for the API
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snarfed S3's API is a big like that today
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snarfed or at least was a few yrs ago
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aaronpk oh yeah true
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "snarfed.org" https://snarfed.org/2016-07-14_18206
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snarfed meh. implied name fail, i guess
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aaronpk hm you have <span class='p-name'></span> in there
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[kevinmarks] Woodwind is almost that app, Aaron. Consumes h-feed, replies via micropub. Needs a bit more pwa magic and we're there.
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aaronpk yes but i am more interested in making it easier for multiple people to build apps on multiple platforms than having just woodwind :)
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[kevinmarks] http://www.androidauthority.com/fenix-reaches-twitter-token-limit-689158/
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Loqi [by: Jimmy Westenberg] (Update: it’s back) Fenix removed from Google Play after reaching Twitter’s token limit
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rMdes her...Fenix is still there
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rMdes ah ok Update: it’s back
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snarfed aaronpk: true! just interesting that news fell back to domain (snarfed.org) and not ellipsized content
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snarfed no matter
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[kevinmarks] Hm http://www.androidauthority.com/fenix-creator-quote-rss-reader-feedly-inoreader-685744/
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Loqi [by: Kris Carlon] The creator of Fenix has made a new RSS reader app called Quote
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aaronpk I don't think indienews has ever parsed out content
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[kevinmarks] So sounds like a possibility if it adds h-feed
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[ben_thatmustbem Slack is going to mess this up but http://www.:pizza::hankey:.ws (http://www.xn--vi8hiv.ws/ )
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gRegorLove Haha
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Loqi hehe
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gRegorLove Hm, is Slack or IRC cutting off ben_thatmustbeme's nick?
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aaronpk IRC
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aaronpk there's a length limit on freenode
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[shaners] Which is why i’m “shaners” and not “veganstraightedge”
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[ben_thatmustbem yeah, i had it hitting the max length already, which was why it was ben_thatmustbeme and not ben_thatmustbe_me
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gRegorLove I thought I'd seen his full nick from slack before, but I guess not.
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voxpelli aaronpk: how would one make it simpler for people to build apps? isn't it already fairly simple to build an indieweb reader app?
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voxpelli like the sound of giving Woodwind some pwa magic :)
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aaronpk in my experience with Monocle, parsing peoples' feeds was not actually that simple, lots of edge cases
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aaronpk I would hate to have to go through all that each time I build an app
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aaronpk I started bundling some of the parsing logic into XRay so that it's all handled there and exposes a simplified/normalized version of peoples' posts
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voxpelli aaronpk: parsing their h-feeds?
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli yeah, getting a good presentation will probably take some while and is somewhat of a moving target, but getting content in there at all should be fairly simple :)
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aaronpk you'd think so, until you actually start parsing peoples' sites
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aaronpk the good/bad of microformats is that it lets authors be somewhat flexible about how they arrange things in the HTML
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voxpelli I know it was hell with RSS/Atom
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aaronpk turns out there's at least 3 ways that a list of posts might appear on a page
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voxpelli that sounds like at least one too many
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voxpelli are the three h-entries in h-feed, h-entries with no h-feed and h-feed in h-card?
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aaronpk top-level h-feed with child h-entrys, top-level h-card with child h-feed with child h-entries, top-level list of h-entrys
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voxpelli aaronpk: speaking of xray btw, did you see https://github.com/hueniverse/metaphor ?
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aaronpk basically none of those differences matter to a consuming application, the app just wants a list of h-entries with author information
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aaronpk that was my goal with XRay / jf2
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aaronpk oh nice i should add h-entry parsing to that :)
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voxpelli and somewhat mine with https://github.com/voxpelli/metadataparser/ / https://github.com/voxpelli/metadataparser-mf2
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voxpelli yeah, that would be neat ;)
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aaronpk my main concern is that you show someone who's building an app the mf2 JSON (not even the HTML), and there's so many different ways you have to look for the equivalent information there, that it's way offputting compared to say the twitter API
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voxpelli true, Superfeedr kind of services would be good, but should perhaps also try to see if there can be some best practice or convergence for at least the data needed for a a minimal reader experience
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voxpelli that plus some kind of ACID-like test for readers I guess
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aaronpk there is rough convergence in those three ways
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aaronpk from the other side, it's not reasonable to ask the publisher to change their HTML in order to support a different resulting mf2 data structure
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voxpelli no, not if there's something much more major than just moving a class from one place to another
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voxpelli aaronpk: do you have a test suite for xray with sample mf2 data? like I got with my testpinger?
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aaronpk yes, a pretty thorough one
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/tree/master/tests
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voxpelli perhaps we could extract them so one could easily reuse them in ones own parser?
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KevinMarks1 yes, I ended up writing this too: https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/unmung.py#L190
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voxpelli mostly the HTML
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aaronpk i arranged my test data in a way that should support that
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aaronpk each file is essentially an HTTP response https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/master/tests/data/source.example.com/content-with-distinct-name
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voxpelli I've never gotten further than https://github.com/voxpelli/node-format-microformat/blob/master/index.js#L18 :)
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KevinMarks1 I suppose I should get to adding h-feed parsing to universal feedparser
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voxpelli aaronpk: same here: https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger/tree/master/templates
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aaronpk you're missing headers ;-)
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snarfed facebook api v2.7! https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog#v2_7
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snarfed fortunately i don't see much that will matter to most of us here
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aaronpk mostly not relevant for testing feed parsing, but super important for webmention tests, for testing redirect handling and such
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voxpelli aaronpk: um, true, would have been an improvement :)
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voxpelli is not doing redirect handling *hides ashamed in a corner*
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voxpelli or maybe, I don't remember actually
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KevinMarks1 I have one of those too https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/unmung.py#L281
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snarfed KevinMarks: twinsies! https://github.com/snarfed/granary/blob/master/granary/microformats2.py#L94
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snarfed also fns above, eg get_html, get_string_urls
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voxpelli aaronpk: if one could somehow select a subset of that test html that would be just standalone h-entries or similar webmentionable content, then I could pull it into my testpinger right away
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voxpelli that would make them be imported into my webmention endpoint's test suite
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KevinMarks1 hm. If we're all doing this kind of normalisation, maybe converging and documenting that is what jf2 should be about?
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voxpelli that sounds like a good idea
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snarfed KevinMarks: eh maybe. but we're doing the normalization and extraction into our own internal data structures, which are all different
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snarfed so maybe jf2 is naturally a better fit to all of those different internal structures, maybe not
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voxpelli snarfed: different data structures, but all more similar to jf2 than to raw mf2
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snarfed maybe!
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aaronpk the current jf2 doc is trying to be a simplified version of mf2, without changing the data structure
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voxpelli snarfed: if nothing else it could be a project to document how they're not similar :)
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aaronpk what i actually want is not-mf2, a consistent version of what the mf2 data is trying to actually represent
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aaronpk where it takes in to account the algorithms like authorship
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tantek aaronpk: the problem is that "is trying to actually represent" is very domain specific
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tantek e.g. "authorship" is very domain specific
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aaronpk that's the *point*
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aaronpk mf2 is fine for what it is, a not domain specific representation
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aaronpk but as soon as i'm building a reader app, or whatever, then i'm in the domain, and i end up doing the same algorithm/transforms of the mf2 again and again
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tantek I think domain specific stuff makes sense as utility functions as I think barnabywalters has done with phpmf2
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aaronpk sure but that needs tests, and test data, and we might as well all be using the same test data which means we might as well be using the same representation of the transformations
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tantek both need tests and test data
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tantek not sure what distinction you're making
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aaronpk i'm trying to make an argument for making a thing, (whatever it's called, possibly jf2 but maybe it's something else), that multiple implementations can use
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tantek is this like the "post streams" concept I'd floated earlier?
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aaronpk maybe
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tantek but with things like authorship already done / pre-processed?
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aaronpk what is post streams?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "post streams" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk hm
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snarfed if there are indeed common utils for a domain like readers, sounds like aaronpk is advocating for doing them once, lang independent, instead of once per lang
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aaronpk or at least making test data that is independent of the language
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snarfed (ie basically jf2, but maybe more domain specific)
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aaronpk and having test data also implies there is essentially a spec that it's based on
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voxpelli I think the first step would be test data and then having each implementation themselves figure out if they are successfully parsing them or not
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snarfed ah. common test data sgtm too, but is smaller than something like jf2
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tantek ok that makes sense as a way to make jf2 immediately more useful / usable for those use-cases
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voxpelli aaronpk: the testdata I have in testpinger is real worl data and is not implying a spec but rather implying that the world is far from perfect and clients needs to expect that :)
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aaronpk voxpelli: right but what i'm saying is that there can be a thing (spec with implementations) that converts the real world mess into something actually useful for readers and consumers
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tantek aaronpk: your challenge will be trying to avoid having more flexibility just creep into jf2, due to publisher demands
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tantek i.e. what happened with RSS, Atom, and eventually ActivityStreams
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tantek which then made it once again harder on consuming code
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KevinMarks1 so is the thing we need 'list of entries in json'
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aaronpk here are the 6 versions of home page feeds i found from various people's websites. I simplified the data but this is the structure I found https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/tree/master/tests/data/feed.example.com
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tantek even just, maybe the author is in an entry, maybe it's just at the top of the feed
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aaronpk my point is in all 6 cases, they represent the *same* list of posts
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voxpelli I'm a bit hesitant on inserting an intermediary step and saying that some interpretation is more correct than others
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tantek so you'll have to come up with a pretty tight definition for what jf2 means and what it is for in order to have it maintain that kind of "easy to consume" design
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voxpelli but exposing test data will make plenty of people implement their own solutions and then, when they find a need, they will maybe converge on sharing some solutions between them
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tantek otherwise you'll get feature creep again, by people who think the feed is the thing, instead of realizing the feed is just a summary from what's on the HTML
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KevinMarks1 if we converge what webmention.io and webmention.herokuapp.com and mention-tech return, is that a way to make this concrete
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aaronpk KevinMarks1: those aren't based on consuming feeds though
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voxpelli aaronpk: we could converge on data for testing the parsing of individual h-entries first though
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aaronpk yes that's much simpler. i have way more tests in XRay for permalinks
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tantek I'm wondering if the mf2 / jf2 structures and parsing/consuming code discussion is better for #indieweb-dev
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tantek starting to feel more plumbing (but useful) centric
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aaronpk the problem with not having this consistent mapping of mf2 feeds to what you need when actually rendering the posts in a reader is that everyone ends up doing it slightly differently and then learning the edge cases individually instead of having this all documented
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voxpelli yeah, hard when a discussion transforms :) I think we've reached a good conclusion though – starting on sharing some test data for h-entries, if aaronpk can take the lead there that would be great :)
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aaronpk oh yeah, here's where I got stuck with XRay: https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/issues/1
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aaronpk this sounds like a job for tantek!
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tantek wakes up
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tantek that sounds like an issue for /authorship
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aaronpk but /authorship is only about individual posts
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aaronpk unless you want to expand it to include feeds
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tantek right, and each feed is just a set of posts right?
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tantek feed -> set of posts -> /authorship per post
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tantek what am I missing?
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aaronpk who is the author if the feed itself?
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tantek you're assuming there always is one
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aaronpk i would like to know who it is if there is one
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tantek a feed is nothing more than a collection of posts
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tantek posts have actual authorship, not feeds
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tantek some tried to "optimize" a set of posts with the same author as saying that's the "author" for the feed
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tantek but that's a inaccurate representation
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aaronpk maybe the thing i'm thinking of is determining whether the URL i'm looking at is a profile URL
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aaronpk http://twitter.com/t is a profile and a list of posts
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tantek a-ha that's more interesting
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aaronpk if I want to make a page that looks like that, but is generated by parsing the data on tantek.com, how do I find what profile info to include for the page?
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tantek in that case, they question is (should be) one of - does this page have a representative h-card
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aaronpk that might do it
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tantek not sure how you want to capture that in the gh issue
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voxpelli if the h-feed is a child of an h-card then just like an h-entry is connected to the h-feed by being a child of that, wouldn't the h-feed be connected to the h-card? else why is it a child?
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aaronpk voxpelli: sure but that's just one possible arrangement of the pieces. turns out there's many more ways it happens in the wild.
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tantek aaronpk, according to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed you can look for a p-author on the h-feed, and if there is none, then there is no explicit author of the feed. that seems pretty simple.
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tantek (much simpler than "authorship")
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tantek s/"authorship"/\/authorship
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Loqi tantek meant to say: (much simpler than \)
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tantek oops
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aaronpk yes but that does not give good results
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voxpelli tantek: but then your page has an author less feed so real world examples shows that one isn't enough ;)
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tantek voxpelli: no that doesn't follow
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aaronpk i think the representative h-card might be what i need
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tantek voxpelli: this is the point - you cannot assume an author has a feed
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tantek that was my first pushback to aaronpk see above
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tantek s/an author has a feed/a feed has an author"
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voxpelli tantek: but surely you intended that your h-feed would have an author? it's not author-less by intention?
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tantek yes by intention because it doesn't need one
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tantek that's the point
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tantek a feed is *just* a set of posts, each post -> /authorship, you're done
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voxpelli tantek: so if it shows up without an avatar in a Twitter like indieweb reader then that's how you prefer it to be shown? because most people would assume that to be an errenous presentation of your posts
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tantek publishers are doing just fine not putting an explicit author on a feed, so you're not going to force them to
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[ben_thatmustbem thats what i do
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tantek thus as consuming code, you MUST handle a feed with no explicit author
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tantek voxpelli: nope. Twitter like indieweb reader follows *profiles*, not feeds
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tantek that's where the analogy breaks down
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aaronpk that's the conclusion i just came to
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tantek and frankly, I think shows the entire flaw of the name "feed reader" and assumptions that brings
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voxpelli so basically: all consuming code should always fetch the u-url of he h-entries and rely on the data there as the data in the feed should not be considered enough for a good presentation of that feed?
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tantek feedreaders--
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Loqi feedreaders has -1 karma
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KevinMarks If each entry has the same author, can you make that the feed author?
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tantek feedreader--
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Loqi feedreader has -1 karma
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tantek KevinMarks: who you?
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[ben_thatmustbem no, because you don't know if the next entry to come in has a different author
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes from tonight's Homebrew Website Club on my site at http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2016-07-13.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/notes-from-tonights-homebrew-website-club-on-my-site-at
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tantek certainly makes no sense to force publishers to do that
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tantek and what ben_thatmustbeme said
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neilpdx hello everyone
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KevinMarks (that's like the opposite of atom, where an entry without an author gets the author of the feed)
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gRegorLove favicon seems a fine fallback for a feed avatar, if no feed author is listed.
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voxpelli tantek: but you're saying that an h-feed that's a child of an h-card that someone follows doesn't inherit the profile data of the h-card? so it doesn't matter if I follow a profile or a feed?
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gRegorLove (after representative h-card, that is)
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tantek KevinMarks: see aforementioned point about feed people asking for more flexibility in publishing and thus causing more consuming side problems
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aaronpk voxpelli: no, tantek is saying that if you follow /authorship of that h-entry then youll end up with that h-card anyway
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tantek voxpelli: there is no such inheritance
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tantek voxpelli: you're the one that complained about lacking an avatar or not
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aaronpk i have just been convinced that feed authorship is not necessary
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gRegorLove My h-feed does not have a p-author either.
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tantek so clearly it does matter to follow a profile (person) rather than a dumb feed
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tantek I think we just figured out that feed-centric thinking has been wrong all along
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aaronpk there is a case of following feeds, such as this one https://news.indieweb.org/en
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tantek perhaps the heart of where the RSS / Atom wars went wrong was what they agreed on, the very battleground they were fighting for, was the wrong battleground
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aaronpk but in that case each entry has a different author, and it doesn't really make sense for the feed to have its own author since ethe feed isn't anything except a collection of other posts
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tantek aaronpk: but not the 80/20 case, certainly shouldn't be the source how you think or deesign
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tantek s/deesign/design
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk: but not the 80/20 case, certainly shouldn't be the source how you think or design
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aaronpk right i'm saying that even in that case, feed author doesn't make sense
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tantek a-ha
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voxpelli tantek: I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that I would expect there to be an avatar as that's the expectation that has been set by current social media clients
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tantek voxpelli: right! social media clients follow *people*/profiles, not feeds
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aaronpk voxpelli: i'm saying you get that by interpreting the tantek.com home page as a *profile* not as a feed
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voxpelli is totally lost here
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tantek it's only the dead model of feed readers that are stuck in the email UI metaphor of all text no avatars
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voxpelli aaronpk: so I should get the profile data from tantek's page because it has a representative h-card?
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk and if you follow /authorship starting at any of his entrys, you'll get that same profile data for each post
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voxpelli that the fact that the feed is a child of the h-card doesn't convey any meaning is a bit weird though :/ so a feed can be a child of one h-card but the entries within it would still inherit author from the representative h-card on the page
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gRegorLove considers making a people reader. A flying purple one.
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voxpelli would be happiest if no h-feed are made childs of h-cards then – if that relationship is meaningless
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aaronpk voxpelli: that's the kind of normalization I am going to do in XRay
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gRegorLove Barnaby's mf-cleaner lib for php-mf2 makes it easier, too.
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kbs KevinMarks / (anyone else in the know) was talking in a recent twig podcast about unifying various content-addressable storage protocols - any references to ongoing efforts here?
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gRegorLove What is content addressing?
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Loqi content addressing is a way of looking up pages or files by hashes of their contents rather than the URL of their origin server https://indieweb.org/content_addressing
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KevinMarks I made a fee notes on that here, but there's more discussions in the decentralized web slack/matrix
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gRegorLove What is content-addressable storage?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "content-addressable storage" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove content-addressable storage is /content addressing
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Loqi ok
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kbs KevinMarks - nice, thank you
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KevinMarks I need to add more to that.
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KevinMarks What is your interest? Are you working on content addressing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "your interest" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk lol
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gRegorLove your interest is /itches
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Loqi ok
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kbs KevinMarks - interested as a consumer of it - but not sure yet about concrete projects. It seems potentially a handy way to publishing binary transparency logs (basically, merkle trees with published hashes of binary artifacts) - the nodes of the tree are content-addressable in principle..
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KevinMarks Following people is right, but sometimes you want to follow aspects of people, which may show up as separate pages or sites
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aaronpk true, i have a lot of those
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aaronpk i have many feeds on my site, such as tag feeds and the somewhat type-specific feeds
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KevinMarks Converging Merkle DAGs is a possible next step with this thinking, kbs, but converging hashes of discrete content seems both a good entry point and something practically useful
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kbs makes sense :-) and will poke around your notes and links (thank you for identifying the problem + motivating efforts towards consolidation!)
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KevinMarks Right, Aaron. Feeds as lists of entries area a useful thing to represent more than just a person's entries. You have consumption feeds as well as production feeds, (what am I reading, who replied etc) so multi author is common
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tantek KevinMarks, agreed about aspects, but that should be a UI where you pick that from the profile, not where you offload "feed management" onto the user (as feed readers do)
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voxpelli We really need more reader apps to iron it out I think
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bear i'm liking this conversation about feeds and authorship
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bear because I feel the past (atom, rss, whatevs) was all about publishing in one direction
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bear and today we are about curating of content - which can be single source or mutlple source
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bear and the curator should be the one with the onous of providing citation, which with webmentions is built-in
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KevinMarks Well, a lot of feed publishing was about sharing links to others posts too
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/07/call-off-search.html is an old meditation of mine in this
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@kevinmarks @manton2 would lovento help you get it wired up with indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753699491652317184)
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bear yep, didn't mean to paint all of past feeds with that broad brush
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@joeld Google deleted an artist's blog, and with it a decade of his work. http://fusion.net/story/325231/google-deletes-dennis-cooper-blog/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753702047782801408)
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snarfed s/deleted/disabled/, but still sucks
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tantek and linked from that: https://medium.com/message/never-trust-a-corporation-to-do-a-librarys-job-f58db4673351 by Andy Baio
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tantek aside: I dislike that Medium URLs don't include an author nickname or account name
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aaronpk weird sometimtes they do
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aaronpk oh "message" is the publication it's in
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tantek and somehow that justifies suppressing author info from the URL?
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tantek also: https://medium.com/message/googles-slow-fade-with-librarians-fddda838a0b7 by Jessamyn West
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aaronpk well it's posted in the "message" account rather than on andy's own medium account
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tantek so, /authorship is then what?
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aaronpk well andy is still the author. but i wouldn't say author name in the URL is a requirement
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aaronpk it's just that "message" is pretty generic and kind of looks weird in this case
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tantek like "status" :P
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aaronpk starts a medium publication called "status"
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tantek oh my goodness please do that
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tantek then they look like tweet URLs without the @-name
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[benatwork] O.o
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[benatwork] I’m a little surprised that /message was allowed
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[benatwork] Medium only just started allowing single word publication slugs
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[benatwork] But you can’t have Status, so whoever wrote that must have done a good job :laughing:
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snarfed i thought message *was* medium's?
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tantek considers "rare", "is", "is-the-message"
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snarfed maybe not
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aaronpk doh "status" is blacklisted
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aaronpk "statuses" is not :D
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aaronpk https://medium.com/statuses
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tantek ;p;
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[benatwork] hey wait why am I an editor
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aaronpk https://medium.com/statuses/just-setting-up-my-medium-3e2a3b55d3ad
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tantek lololol
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snarfed [benatwork]: of message? aha, maybe it is medium's! or was
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aaronpk i made [benatwork] an editor of "statuses"
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[benatwork] snarfed of statuses
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snarfed "snarfed of statuses"
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snarfed i'm going to start introducing myself like that
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[benatwork] Your 1.3K followers just got that notification and were like “huh?"
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aaronpk wait what
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aaronpk how do i have 1.3k followers on medium
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bear not surprising since your one of the "faces" of IndieWeb
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aaronpk i'ive never posted there
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@manton2 @kevinmarks Thanks! Big fan of IndieWebCamp. I support a little from Microformats, but want to add Micropub and Webmention too. (twitter.com/_/status/753717894266007552)
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miklb snarfed of statuses, bringer of webmentions
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snarfed destroyer of sites
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miklb there, I knew it needed one more part
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tantek and here I thought it was destroyer of APIs ;)
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bear destroyer of weak APIs
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miklb might add fumbler of APIs to his title :-P
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tantek what is marked safe?
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Loqi marked safe is a notification feature that tells you when those you follow have marked themselves as safe in an area affected by a disaster or other physical emergency within a geographical area https://indieweb.org/marked_safe
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KevinMarks1 message was one of medium's first magazines, when it was a platisher
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club LA 2016-07-27" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-07-27
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tantek nice
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tantek that will be a good night!
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tantek with London and LA back in action
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Loqi gute nacht!
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tantek lol Loqi
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tantek gives Loqi some grammar
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Loqi runs away from the grammar
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tantek clearly
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[chrisaldrich] I'm all in, just need to lock down the location I want, though I've got a back up plan just in case.
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[chrisaldrich] Does anyone have an IWC stickers left over that I can give away as swag in anticipation of IWC LA in November?
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aaronpk yes
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[chrisaldrich] Or if someone is sitting on an extra T-shirt, I can wire some cash...
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aaronpk also yes
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aaronpk needs to make an order form for this stuff :)
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, my address is in my h-card on www.boffosocko.com; let me know the price, shipping, and preferred method of payment and we'll send you everything with loads of extra appreciation
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[chrisaldrich] I looked around and didn't see any HWC logos, has anyone considered making one? I do love the fact that google image searches for the term give back lots of photos of people though.
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miklb I think the logo is in github somewhere
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aaronpk there isn't one for homebrew website club yet
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[benatwork] Best wishes to every French indieweb community member. I’m shocked by the news. Please let us know you’re safe.
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miklb oh, read IWC, not HWC
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KevinMarks1 indieweb.org on TWiG https://youtu.be/oYBkb6vRK4s?t=1h54m36s
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KevinMarks1 well, I made one but people didn't like it much
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KevinMarks1 http://svgur.com/s/o
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Loqi HWC logo no text http://svgur.com/i/o.svg
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KevinMarks1 also http://svgur.com/s/1k
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Loqi homebrew website club logo http://svgur.com/i/1k.svg
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tantek heh - old school!
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Loqi [indieweb] "Come join me at Homebrew Website Club LA on July 27 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-07-27 #indieweb" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/come-join-me-at-homebrew-website-club-la-on-july
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@ChrisAldrich Come join me at Homebrew Website Club LA on July 27 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-07-27 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/753735564801691655)
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aaronpk woo LA
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tantek yeah! with POSSE FB event too!
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neilpdx congrats LA
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tantek first to post an indie event and FB POSSE copy for next HWC1
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tantek s/HWC1/HWC!
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Loqi tantek meant to say: first to post an indie event and FB POSSE copy for next HWC!
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tantek !tell adactio,Jeena,aaronpk,kylewm,kevinmarks,gRegorLove could you post an indie event and FB POSSE copy for the next HWC in your city? https://indieweb.org/events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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