#indieweb 2016-08-18

2016-08-18 UTC
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KevinMarks
Using js to replace?
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aaronpk
wow ie8? meh
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KartikPrabhu
all my images are lazy loaded using js to get responsive images. I have been meaning to switch to srcset but srcset is very unmaintainable
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mblaney
re: superfeedr, I think it's worth acknowledging the "centralization effects" of some services.
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mblaney
for instance I've written and use my own hub, so don't need superfeedr.
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mblaney
but I also blog about indieweb regularly, so maybe it's worth using them so I get picked up by their tracker?
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aaronpk
that's not how it works though
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aaronpk
they can subscribe to your hub
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aaronpk
also mblaney you should add yourself to the list of hubs here! https://indieweb.org/PubSubHubbub
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aaronpk
is your hub a separate project? or part of your site?
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mblaney
oh I thought I did! :-)
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mblaney
it's built into dobrado, which is my site.
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mblaney
also thanks aaronpk for the clarification, I can ask superfeedr to subscribe to me??
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aaronpk
awesome! definitely good to add to that list!
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aaronpk
i thought there was a way to explicitly do that, but now i can't find the docs
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mblaney
I found this:
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mblaney
The scope for tracking feeds is the total number of feeds processed by Superfeedr. This includes feeds subscribed by subscribers and feeds published by publishers subscribed by at least one subscriber on their hubs. We are working on extending this coverage to include any subscribed feed on the web.
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aaronpk
aha, so that does sound like they're missing the ability to subscribe to your and my hubs directly
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aaronpk
unless someone else uses superfeedr to subscribe to us
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miklb
might answer your question why Loqi doesn't pick up your posts aaronpk
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@aaronpk
@AaronGustafson also feel free to join the chat! Either IRC or Slack. A little easier than back and forth in <140! https://indieweb.org/IRC
(twitter.com/_/status/766073848307474432)
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aaronpk
<3 my site search
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[aarongustafson]
I’m about to call it a night, but I will sync up tomorrow
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aaronpk
sounds good. definitely interested in tracking this down
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miklb
[aarongustafson] anything from a testing standpoint I'll happily help
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GWG
I am back
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rascul
should updated posts go to the top of the feed? i'm not sure about this
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rascul
i was thinking so, but now that i'm actually building the sort function, i'm thinking not
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aaronpk
I went through this whole thought process a while ago
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aaronpk
didnt end up launching it with my new site tho
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miklb
with atom, isn't there a delineation between minor edit and major?
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rascul
aaronpk what did you conclude?
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miklb
my mistake, just a feature in a couple CMS to not update the timestamp if a minor edit
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AngeloGladding
rascul what makes you hesitant to recent-first?
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rascul
AngeloGladding if a post is updated, i might want it to be at the top so it gets visibility
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rascul
recent-first is the idea, but i'm not sure if i want that to be based on modified date or original date
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AngeloGladding
suppose it depends on *how* (frequently, markedly) you modify your data but i've had to work through this logic as well
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sknebel
and reader-applications that parse your feed will likely only notice if you put it at the top or it's in the first X. but on the other hand a tiny correction on an old post isn't something you want to resurrect the post for (e.g. if you fix a dead link or something)
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rascul
sknebel that is pretty much exactly what my thoughts were
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rascul
i might add another coupld paragraphs to a post and want people to note the change, or i might add a missing comma
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AngeloGladding
i'm sticking with posting all actions to a "stream" -- "created page XYZ" at 9pm, "wrote article ABC" at 9:30p, "updated page XYZ" at 10pm, "corrected article ABC" at 10:10p
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rascul
ooo corrected, that gives me a new idea
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AngeloGladding
changing a wiki page is different than changing a blog post, etc..
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rascul
a date field, an updated field, and a corrected field
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AngeloGladding
note the usage here
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AngeloGladding
an article is "corrected"
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rascul
if there's an updated field, sorting will be based on that, so that it will go up to the top, but sorting won't include a corrected field so that won't change the sorted position
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AngeloGladding
that is, <strike>ingly modified and appended to lightly
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rascul
updated could be for adding paragraphs, correcting for adding a comma
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AngeloGladding
page is updated constantly and frequently using a diff
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AngeloGladding
but yeah i see how you're interpreting it
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AngeloGladding
and that's a good usage as well
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AngeloGladding
kind of like "minor edit" on Wikimedia
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rascul
yeah, i guess
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rascul
all i know about minor edits is that they're secret because Loqi doesn't tell us about them ;)
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aaronpk
My plan was to have a separate list of edits basically
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aaronpk
kind of like the recent changes feed of the wiki
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rascul
heh i just spent about 15 minutes debugging why my Post struct is empty when i add it to the array, to realize the function that returns the Post is returing an empty one instead of the actual one
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rascul
i was so confused about that
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AngeloGladding
i'm thinking of having /articles/corrections provide a concise summary of the type of ammendments i make to my past writings and /pages/changes providing a listing more akin to http://indieweb.org/Special:RecentChanges
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rascul
aaronpk i could potentially do that also
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AngeloGladding
the stream is very streamy and posts everything, sometimes held privately for my own logging purposes, but each resource type gets its own sort of chronological history viewer
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rascul
i think what i'll do is have the three fields as i mentioned, date/updated/corrected, and i'll sort based on date/updated and i'll make a separate list of corrections
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AngeloGladding
that makes me think
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AngeloGladding
there's a major and minor edit of an article as well
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AngeloGladding
just as much as a wiki page
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rascul
mf2 lists only dt-published and dt-updated though
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rascul
for h-entry anyway
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AngeloGladding
hmm that's probably led my way of thought on a binary approach
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rascul
i'll probably do some more thinking on this but for now i have a path forward
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AngeloGladding
i look forward to parsing your posts
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AngeloGladding
in whatever structure they come
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rascul
i'm not too far from having my site generator to a point where i can start doing stuff with it
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rascul
well, probably not far
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AngeloGladding
i too am working through these problems of post type
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rascul
the next big part once i finish these last bits of the code will be the templates, adapting the ones from my old site to fit the template engine i'm using now
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AngeloGladding
i think everyone's doing it differently
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rascul
i was using jinja2 for python, now i'm using liquid in rust, and i'm not really sure yet if this implementation will actually suit my needs
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KartikPrabhu
what is edit?
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Loqi
An edit (AKA diff, change) is a special type of reply that indicates a set of suggested changes to the post it is replying to. A collection of (presumably related) suggested edits in open source is often called a patch or pull request https://indieweb.org/edit
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AngeloGladding
thank you
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KevinMarks_
At one point atom had 3 dates, but published and updated are it, though you can have a source with its own dated iirc
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KevinMarks_
There was created/issued/modified in atom 0.3
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KevinMarks_
Issued became published, modified became updated and created was dropped
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bear
ah the joys of unicode
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KartikPrabhu
that is weird....
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KartikPrabhu
heydon writes pretty awesome stuff
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sknebel
gkbrk: did the HN submission today show show up in your refbacks? HN has a referrer policy set that should hide the exact submission URL, but maybe an older browser or a crawler ignored that and it came through?
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gkbrk
google analytics and the referrer script both showed entries from hacker news
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gkbrk
the twitter refbacks were also from some hacker news bots
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gkbrk
so it took a very small amount of time to find the related article
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gkbrk
sknebel: i will check out if a full url somehow made it through, let me check
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gkbrk
nope. looks like everyone uses conformant browsers
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sknebel
gkbrk: thanks for checking!
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jboy
gkbrk++ for properly misspelling referer
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Loqi
gkbrk has 1 karma
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gkbrk
i think this is the related line <meta name="referrer" content="origin">
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gkbrk
does HN have secret URLs that are only accessed by logged-in people?
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gkbrk
i am wondering why they chose to limit referers?
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sknebel
that came up a while back, I don't think there was an authorative answer
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sknebel
there are a few critical pages, but the normal submission pages aren't
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sknebel
you could mail dang and ask
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gkbrk
lobste.rs and reddit pass the whole url
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gkbrk
the interesting thing that I recently found out is, android apps pass their full package name as a referrer
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gkbrk
looks like this -> /2016/08/explaining-ed/ android-app://com.laurencedawson.reddit_sync
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gkbrk
the second part is the referrer
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sknebel
if you think HN shouldn't hide it you totally should mail the HN mods about it, they are nice and helpful in my experience
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gkbrk
should I mail the support link there?
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gkbrk
hn@ycombinator.com
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aaronpk
Nice, gkbrk, saw your post pop up in my ##hackernews channel here!
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gkbrk
there's a ##hackernews channel?
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gkbrk
oh just a notification channel
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gkbrk
i see
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jboy
I think the semi-official HN IRC channel is #startups or something like that.
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aaronpk
Yeah Loqi is in ##hackernews and reports when an article hits the front page
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aaronpk
gkbrk; you missed an important distinction between track back and the others. Trackbacks work by having the sender post the full comment data, and there is no built in verification, so it's all spam and basically everyone disabled support for it a long time ago
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aaronpk
with pingback and webmention the post request only contains the URL that reportedly links to you and you have to go check it out to verify it
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gkbrk
aren't the text and title optional with trackbacks? I think you can only use the link there and perform the same verification
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gkbrk
not sure about the implementations but the spec says there has to be a link
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gkbrk
sknebel: all right i sent them a mail
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aaronpk
Yeah they're optional. The spec doesn't even mention verification tho
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aaronpk
also lol the Wikipedia article links to cweiske's archive of the spec http://archive.cweiske.de/trackback/trackback-1.2.html
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jboy
!tell Zegnat I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gkbrk
aaronpk: according to the webmention spec, a server can send a webmention with the same link if the article is updated right
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jboy
!tell petermolnar I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gkbrk
so a webmention-enabled website should handle duplicate submissons
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petermolnar
https://pads.ccc.de -> SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER
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petermolnar
y u no letsencrypt? :)
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gkbrk
oh that just make implementations so much easier
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aaronpk
thats mentioned in the spec actually
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gkbrk
i can essentially add a step to my website build process that finds each link and sends webmentions to them, regardless of the article being updated
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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petermolnar
!tell snarfed is there a way at the moment to query brid.gy for all syndications it did for a URL?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cmal
oay I found more info, that sounds pretty bad in terms of censorship : http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37114313
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petermolnar
cmal the DNS change is a really big thing and I'm not certain I'm happy
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petermolnar
we still have no alternative at all
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petermolnar
except for .onion
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petermolnar
but that's rather hard to remember...
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cmal
there's also IPNS nowadays which is pretty solid (but only for static content)
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cmal
but yeah we need something better, quickly :-/
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aaronpk
wow I wonder what mozilla is switching to internally then
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aaronpk
github login for the moz wiki doesn't surprise me i guess
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cmal
aaronpk: apparently devs will have to use Github from now on
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petermolnar
IPNS relies on DNS TXT entry...
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petermolnar
kind of useless
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cmal
I'm wondering if we could add an overlay DHT on top of the root DNS, so as to allow anyone to register a new TLD that's not already on the root DNS
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prtksxna
cmal: namecoin?
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cmal
prtksxna++
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Loqi
prtksxna has 7 karma
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cmal
I had forgotten that one :)
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petermolnar
namecoin is a pain at the moment; in theory, it works, but since .bit is not "officially" recognized, for regular folks, it's not an option
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GWG
Morning
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cmal
http://namecoin.info/docs/faq/ « An example of this usage is the ability to delegate .bit domain names to an external DNSSEC nameserver, authenticated by a DS record in the blockchain. »
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aaronpk
hm apparently i didn't have a mozilla wiki account
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cmal
so if I get it right it means we can easily create "registrars" on top of namecoin that will redirect all queries from say indieweb.bit to a standard DNS server that's not registered in the DNS root
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cmal
correct?
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aaronpk
who was it that tried to register a .bit recently? they had a whole rant about it
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petermolnar
I did one recently; wasn't ranting though
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aaronpk
mild frustration?
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cmal
but what I don't really get is why make a cryptomoney out of it instead of a fully-open secure DHT?
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petermolnar
nah, it wasn't the .bit reg, it was the getting nc part
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cmal
(with say, a web-of-trust or pondering of trust in a node based on reputation or time spent in the network)
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aaronpk
ah that's right
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petermolnar
cmal because cryptomoney was the shiny shiny and it seemed like a good idea that time, I guee
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aaronpk
that sounds about right
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aaronpk
plenty of people are working on this, i'm just gonna wait until something shakes out
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aaronpk
in the mean time, you can find me at aaronparecki.com
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cmal
also because if I read properly it's built on Bitcoin-tech blockchain which if I remember correctly deals very badly with intended corruption from big contributors
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sknebel
blockchain makes it easier to maintain a mapping to arbitrary names
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cmal
(I seem to recall obtaining just 50% of the hashing power of Bitcoin is enough to fake data)
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cmal
thanks for the link aaronpk :)
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aaronpk
is anyone besides petermolnar trying out these alternative DNS for their own websites yet?
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sknebel
because you have a central log and can check who owns a name. most other systems derive the name from a private key, so you can't choose a specific name
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petermolnar
aaronpk I'm having light trouble serving the same content from different domains so even I don't really count
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cmal
sknebel: I meant there's more resilient DHT algorithms that are designed to prevent majority attacks and such
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cmal
there's plenty of very interesting research papers on the subject of secure DHTs
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petermolnar
personally I don't believe in namecoin; I just wanted to try it out, to see how far had it gone
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cmal
KadNode is interesting, but then again if many peers want to compromise the network, I don't see anything in the docs saying how to prevent it :-/
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schmarty
i have a .onion version of my site (martymcgui.re) available at http://schmartyp7qtjzn7.onion/
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schmarty
(also hello, long time lurker first time chatter)
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aaronpk
we should collect a wiki page for these
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cmal
hello :)
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schmarty
i've also registered schmarty.bit on namecoin in order to have a "nice" "domain" for a zeronet site, but can't say that i've done more than a hello world with it.
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aaronpk
welcome schmarty
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aaronpk
oh hey you're on /irc-people already!
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schmarty
thanks, @aaronpk!
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aaronpk
and you have a micropub endpoint!
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schmarty
haha, i do indeed. i started following indiewebcamp about a year ago and have slowly been indiewebifying my site and doing those little bits since then.
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Loqi
rofl
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aaronpk
wow awesome
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cmal
schmarty++
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Loqi
schmarty has 1 karma
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schmarty
i'm still on the very low end. i've configured indieauth and have a custom flask-based micropub endpoint using quill as my client.
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schmarty
looking forward to IWC NYC2 next week for more!
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GWG
schmarty: Welcome aboard.
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schmarty
thanks, @cmal and @GWG!
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GWG
schmarty: I'll see you there.
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cmal
also, is it now possible (or will it be) to have relative URLs in Wordpress so that you can natively support a .onion mirror of your site by just serving the WP install with .onion server_name ?
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snarfed
petermolnar: hmm
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Loqi
snarfed: petermolnar left you a message 55 minutes ago: is there a way at the moment to query brid.gy for all syndications it did for a URL?
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snarfed
you mean, all silo posts it's backfed to that original post? or all u-syndication links it's crawled and stored for it?
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petermolnar
the latter
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snarfed
got it. no, but it's an interesting request
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petermolnar
or maybe not
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snarfed
is there a specific problem i can help with?
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snarfed
also petermolnar aaronpk i tried (and failed) to acquire a namecoin and register a .bit recently, that may be what you're thinking of
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snarfed
the software and processes are, um...rough
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petermolnar
I can send you a few namecoins, I apparently bought too much
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snarfed
! thanks for the offer!
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snarfed
i may be over it now though
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snarfed
oh btw petermolnar you may also be interested in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579
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petermolnar
on the brid.gy note: I either fire a direct bridgy call on my post publish or send a webmention later when I would like bridgy to send my article to social silo X. In the second case it's rather hard to tie it back to the post (at the moment), so I was thinking of backfilling the missing syndications by asking bridgy for all the syndicated urls for that post
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snarfed
ohhhhhh for bridgy publish, i see
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snarfed
you can get recent ones from your user page. http://brid.gy/about#api
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snarfed
i can add paging to get older ones if you'd use it
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snarfed
sounds like recent would be enough though
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petermolnar
I'll try to parse that
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miklb
ooh.That might be of use to me as well
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petermolnar
though a JSON endpoint would be nice ;)
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petermolnar
brid.gy/pleaselistsyndicationsfor/https://ur.l/
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snarfed
parse mf2 :P
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petermolnar
I saw that coming :)
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miklb
going to stick with the bridgy response
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miklb
which is actually my goal today, other work be damned :-)
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Zegnat
Hello World
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Loqi
Zegnat: jboy left you a message 2 hours, 34 minutes ago: I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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gkbrk
schmarty: I was so excited to find a new reverse engineering blog when I saw your tld
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gkbrk
never have i been more wrong
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schmarty
gkbrk: haha, sorry. that would have been exciting! i imagine the island of Réunion won't mind the overloaded use. :}
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Loqi
hehe
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schmarty
my name is not uncommon, so i was excited to find this TLD
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Zegnat
!tell jboy nice pad, I will add it to https://indieweb.org/HWC#Getting_Started_or_Restarting after I have dinner (if nobody beats me to it) to get som exposure on the wiki
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cmal
I may drop by Amsterdam if you're organizing something :)
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cmal
why not organize it at the LAG?
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cmal
there's plenty of room in the whole social center to do pretty much what we need, we could probably also connect with their soup kitchen for very affordable or even free-price food
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cmal
and on the plus side, it's totally NOT corporate^^
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Zegnat
cmal, why not? because nobody brought it up yet.
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cmal
(also, doing it there could attract some very people from the activist scene)
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cmal
I'll document it on the pad
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Zegnat
The whole idea got rolling when petermolnar said he was often in Amsterdam and would enjoy a HWC. I am in the Netherlands now, but not actually familiar with A’dam, so jboy has been adressing the “where”, mostly.
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cmal
I've only spent a few months in Amsterdam but there was plenty of squats and social centers pretty much everywhere, so I'd consider it a real shame to give a single cent to a corporate entity to organize an event there :)
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Zegnat
HWC is (usually tried as) a biweekly thing. So locations that would require us to pay every time should probably not even be considered
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cmal
does it make sense to start organizing bi-weekly meetings before actually organizing a single one?
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Zegnat
No, but does it make sense to pay for a venue the first time if you would not want to revisit them if it becomes a thing? ;)
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Zegnat
So free places, possibly like LAG, would be prefered.
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cmal
that does make sense :)
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cmal
I never meant to intend we should give people money for having a little space and exchanging ideas #PropertyIsTheft
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Zegnat
Otherwise random bars and cafes often work, if they are friendly to computer users. Göteborg is usually at the Steampunk Bar, and I think Portland HWC has also been at places like that.
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aaronpk
most of the time PDX is at a bar or coffee shop
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Zegnat
Thanks for confirmation, aaronpk. And, hi!
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cmal
yeah but that raises the bar for people to come in, usually you even have to pay for a glass of water in bars (except in France where that's illegal) which is a shame
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aaronpk
that's true. tho meetups at bars/coffee shops in PDX is a pretty normal thing
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cmal
yeah, in Paris as well because police makes sure there's no alternative/squatted places where we can organize
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cmal
but we shouldn't continue like this ;)
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gRegorLove
Bellingham HWC is at a coffee shop too
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Zegnat
I lived in the middle of nowhere too long to have a reference for where normal meetups happen :p
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jonnybarnes
the indieweb wiki doesn’t have the {{about}} template
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jonnybarnes
is this something we can fix?
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jonnybarnes
I was going to use it to add a mention for atom.io on the atom page
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aaronpk
what's the {{about}} template?
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jonnybarnes
it lets you say you could have meant *this* at the top of ana rticle
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funwhilelost
MediaWiki has a templating system that's heavily leveraged on Wikipedia. They often use the "ParserFunctions" extension to add logic to them as well. The source for the MediaWiki about template is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:About
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aaronpk
that page is extremely overwhelming
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aaronpk
what does it do?
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aaronpk
also don't copy templates from wikipedia because copyright, but you can make a similar template if you want
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jonnybarnes
Like where it says this page is a stub, it’d say this page is about xyz, for abc see [[...]]
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funwhilelost
It looks like this one in particular follows the {{Hatnote}} template and leverages a Lua module: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:About
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jonnybarnes
where xyz and abc would be very short descriptions
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aaronpk
like to disambiguate a page?
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jonnybarnes
it can do
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aaronpk
I would say just start simple and add that notice to the Atom page directly
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aaronpk
if we need to do it again, make a simple template for it
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funwhilelost
Agreed. It's really difficult to keep templates consistent unless there is a Wikipedia-sized moderator team to help guide new editors.
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jonnybarnes
so just edit the atom page directly?
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funwhilelost
So I've been diving in on new tech that could help push indie forward. Have you guys seen this? https://dokie.li/#publish
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funwhilelost
@jonnybarnes - yeah
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aaronpk
that works
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aaronpk
funwhilelost: are you using dokieli on your site?
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funwhilelost
No, I've just been digging into some of the other tech.
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funwhilelost
I know Tim Berners-Lee has been pushing the RDF and linked data stuff forever. He seems to be moving into "webmention" territory with the latest W3C working groups.
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aaronpk
that's an interesting way of putting it
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aaronpk
that is from the same group we published webmention through
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aaronpk
funwhilelost: what is your website? I just noticed you're not linked in the chat logs
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funwhilelost
funwhilelost.com
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funwhilelost
It's Known right now.
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voxpelli
morning!
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aaronpk
cool. it looks like you're all set up to sign in to the wiki, add yourself here? https://indieweb.org/irc-people
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jonnybarnes
TB-L doing this as well: https://solid.mit.edu
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gkbrk
aaronpk: i wrote this https://indieweb.org/refback. I think the list part might be incorrect, should I replace it with subsections?
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[kevinmarks]
Yes, several of the solid people are in socialwg
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aaronpk
gkbrk: nice! looks fine to me
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gkbrk
also is hosted services (like Google Analytics, Disqus, surveys etc.) relevant to the wiki?
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aaronpk
if someone is using it on their site then yes
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snarfed
what is analytics
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Loqi
analytics needs a definition by someone who understands what it is and cares about it https://indieweb.org/analytics
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aaronpk
haha snarfed++
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Loqi
aaronpk: lol
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voxpelli
gkbrk: they often appear as silo examples on something like: https://indieweb.org/reply#Silo_Examples
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gkbrk
what is refback
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Loqi
Refback is a linkback method that works using the standard HTTP Referer header https://indieweb.org/refback
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gkbrk
nailed the dfn tag
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funwhilelost
Yeah, I've been keeping my eye on Solid.
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cmal
is it considered bad practice to store a file pointer in APCU? I'm guessing with proper flocking it shouldn't do any harm
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funwhilelost
I read the spec and looked at some of the projects. Would love to know if there's a piece of software that's easy to install and try out.
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voxpelli
gkbrk: some improvement suggestions: you might want to make the refback page sound a bit less like an advertisement – drop some statements like "dead simple to implement" – and add an IndieWeb Examples section with perhaps yourself in if you have implemented it :)
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gRegorLove
What is Disqus?
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Loqi
Disqus is a comments hosting silo https://indieweb.org/Disqus
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gRegorLove
What is Google Analytics?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Analytics" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat
what is analytics?
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Loqi
analytics needs a definition by someone who understands what it is and cares about it https://indieweb.org/analytics
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Zegnat
gRegorLove, Google Analytics is on that page, actually ^
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gkbrk
i might work on the analytics page later
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funwhile_
Ah, maybe I'll try to set up a "gold" server and play with it: https://github.com/linkeddata/gold
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gRegorLove
Sure, but it could probably use a dfn
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voxpelli
first time I've seen Google Analytics and New Relic on the same page :)
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gRegorLove
Google Analytics is a service to track and report website traffic.
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Zegnat
voxpelli, I think that analytics page mostly just grew straight out of http://indieweb.org/2011/Web_Analytics
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: not better to just redirect the GA page to the general analytics page for now? Can one do that + have a dfn at the same time?
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gRegorLove
::shrug:: I think it's fine to have pages for specific services and separate pages for the overall concept
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voxpelli
I use New Relic to get an insight in whether my webmention endpoint can handle the load or not – but I use no analytics of the visitors :)
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: somewhat suboptimal when descriptions of things get fragmented across many pages and maybe improved and duplicated across the wiki – makes discovery etc harder
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gkbrk
i have google analytics but my stats are really thrown off by the fact that most of my readers are programmers
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miklb
agreed. WordPress & Jekyll suffer from that already
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gkbrk
and programmers love ad blockers, which block analytics
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voxpelli
miklb: Joh, yeah, Jekyll situation and GitHub / GitHub Pages situation is so so fragmented and weirdly interlinked :'(
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voxpelli
s/joh/oh/
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funwhile_
Who misses AWStats?
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voxpelli
funwhile_: it certainly gave a better view of the traffic to the servers, but even more than GA was suspect to referrer spam and such :P
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gkbrk
referrer spam doesn't exist
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gkbrk
it's just helpful devs and their scripts
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aaronpk
just wait
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Zegnat
Piwik is also pretty prone to referrer spam. So much so that they have an open-sourced blacklist somewhere. I once, made a pull request to it with a whole list of fake referrers I received
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gkbrk
suggesting you cool websites to visit
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gkbrk
i automated my referrers so they get added to my bookmarks
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Zegnat
I added 67 domains to the Piwik blacklist, from a 14 day span on a relatively unknown domain (https://github.com/piwik/referrer-spam-blacklist/pull/37). Just stopped doing statistics after that.
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Creating vCards from h-cards" by Brandon Rozek on 2015-12-27 http://brandonrozek.com/2015/12/creating-vcards-from-h-cards/
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voxpelli
aaronpk++ for dates in Superfeedr posts now :)
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Loqi
aaronpk has 1098 karma (420 in this channel)
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aaronpk
it's very helpful :)
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gkbrk
aaronpk: some of those helpful devs even find my email address from my website and send me emails about their new awesome products
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@kevinmarks
“We need to build stateless protocols like the Web that can be incrementally improved upon…” -@justmoon https://medium.com/@justmoon/the-subtle-tyranny-of-blockchain-91d98b8a3a65#.3n5b2reme #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/766337503087300610)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "“We need to build stateless protocols like the Web that can be incrementally improved upon…” -@justmoon https://medium.com/@justmoon/the-subtle-tyranny-of-blockchain-91d98b8a3a65#.3n5b2reme #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-08-18 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/we-need-to-build-stateless-protocols-like-the-web-that
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snarfed
mmm dupelicious
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KartikPrabhu
why not use the stateless protocol called the Web instead of "building" new ones?
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aaronpk
hey at least .blog isn't restricted to wordpress sites
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snarfed
aaronpk: heh. on the contrary, looks like you can even reserve eg wordpress.blog or automattic.blog : https://get.blog/confirm-domain
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Zegnat
.blog still feels like a bit of a gimmick, I do not get the whole trying to label/classify websites using tlds. Might just be me.
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[kevinmarks]
Are they going to give out ev.blog and redirect to medium?
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aaronpk
Zegnat: it's not just you :)
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aaronpk
snarfed: lol! they didn't even reserve wordpress.blog!
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snarfed
maybe they have, just further into the process. still.
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aaronpk
oh maybe. it doesn't complain about dave.blog , although the fee for that is $10000
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miklb
I'd guess since it's pre-registration, trademarked names will get sorted out
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snarfed
right, most are $250, but some are $5k or $10k
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aaronpk
or $10000
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snarfed
and for some reason ryan.blog is $100k
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snarfed
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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snarfed
is fine with .org-only
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miklb
they should give me mine since I was an early beta tester of wp.com :-P
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Zegnat
Well, those prices seem to proof my gimmick comment, haha
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Loqi
hehe
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aaronpk
google.blog is only $250
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aaronpk
what a bizarre list of words to choose as premium
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[kevinmarks]
I thought Google was bidding for the tld
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Zegnat
wow. my name is $500 (+220), and I don’t even have an internationally viable name
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snarfed
if multiple people pre-register the same domain, it becomes an auction, so they're depending on IP owners pre-registering
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snarfed
aka "sunrise" phase
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aaronpk
matt.blog $250
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[kevinmarks]
Common pattern with these. Is the renewal the same or is that uniform?
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aaronpk
this is just the early application fee
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aaronpk
it'll be like $30/yr once it's open
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voxpelli
other domains with premium ones often cost a lot per year as well
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Zegnat
So you pay 220 now in order to possibly enter a bidding war (that you might lose), or you wait ’til November 21 and just get a domain that’s free for $30?
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aaronpk
doesn't it sound like fun to run a TLD?
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voxpelli
when you charge $10k/year for a single domain it does sound fairly profitable at least :P
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gRegorLove
snarfed: That WP slug was misleading; I thought they were actually going to start giving out free domain names for wordpress.com blogs, hah
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aaronpk
that was my first thought too lol
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gkbrk
we can run our own tld right, if we get everyone to use our dns servers instead of the root ones
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snarfed
huh. what implied free?
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snarfed
eh no matter
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aaronpk
gkbrk: yeah sure. i run .dev for myself
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Zegnat
gkbrk, we could also petition OpenNIC to create a TLD for us, which gives us a complete DNS infrastructure already in place
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cmal
gkbrk: yeah, now we just need the proper techs to actually share our zones :D
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gRegorLove
.blog seems weird because it's a dated term by this point. Some TLDs I can see some sense to, but not .blog
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aaronpk
gRegorLove: that was my second thought!
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cmal
Zegnat: isn't OpenNIC a centralized architecture?
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gRegorLove
aaronpk and I are on the same wavelength today I guess
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cmal
(as in, alternative DNS root)
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voxpelli
cmal: IPFS then ;)
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aaronpk
everything is centralized at some level
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gRegorLove
A mental thing I've had to work through is I've thought "my site is a blog" for so long, but with all this indieweb stuff I'm adding (events, notes, etc.) it's more than just a blog. It's just my site.
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Zegnat
I don’t know how IPFS handles DNS, but it would seem hard to make non-centralised DNS roots.
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aaronpk
if you want unambiguous resolution of names, you have to have something centralized somewhere
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voxpelli
aaronpk: until we have solar powered computers that communicate with our personal space satellites that federate together in the infinite galaxy!
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Zegnat
You would end-up with duplicate domains otherwise
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Zegnat
(what aaronpk said)
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gRegorLove
indie satellites!
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miklb
gRegorLove is that due to constraints on what people think of when they see "blog" versus the origins of a "web log"?
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aaronpk
the centralization might be an organization like ICANN or OpenNIC, or more procedural or algorithmic like the blockchain
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Zegnat
Satellites are expensive, could we start with balloons?
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Zegnat
Or, I guess balloons will deeper the confusion between indieweb.org and ind.ie …
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aaronpk
😂
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gRegorLove
miklb: Well, I guess the origin "web log" can be broader, but obviously its most common implementation was "article" type content.
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cmal
well there's centralized and "centralized", if your central point is a somewhat-secure DHT then I wouldn't really call that centralization anymore
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gRegorLove
So yeah "blog" to me kind of invokes "personal, medium-to-long posts"
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cmal
voxpelli: IPNS is perfect for public view of websites/blogs but it's only for static content, I think it's more of a content-resolution protocol than address-resolution
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cmal
(correct me if I'm wrong)
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Zegnat
Wow. I hadn’t visited ind.ie in a while. It makes no sense to me that their homepage is now a browser extension for blocking third party trackers 🙈
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gRegorLove
Zegnat: Haha, that took me a moment (re: balloons)
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Zegnat
gRegorLove, I am here to keep you sharp ;)
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aaronpk
up until relatively recently, I had a totally separate domain that was my blog
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voxpelli
cmal: harder to make dynamic content fully decentralized with no single point of ownership / failure etc
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aaronpk
my site was more static/portfolio content before that
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cmal
voxpelli: .onion does that pretty well, except it's not human-readable
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aaronpk
i could see a lot of companies using .blog though, since they already tend to use separate domains for their blog content
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voxpelli
my site is still mainly a blog, with other kinds of content added as separate tabs / sub sections
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aaronpk
bets on what % of .blog domains will be powered by medium?
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voxpelli
aaronpk: but do you think SEO-people will allow the blog to be on a separate tld?
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cmal
(and also it relies on the TOR protocol to access the remote content :-/)
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voxpelli
speaking of ones blog btw, I really like how https://sixcolors.com/ is mixing in additional content with it's unique blog content
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cmal
aaronpk earlier linked to this : https://github.com/mwarning/KadNode
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Zegnat
aaronpk, I am not sure what the real overlap is between the people (and companies) using Medium to blog, and the people (and companies) willing to get a separate .blog domain for it.
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voxpelli
been kind of wanting to copy Six Colors pattern for my blog
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gRegorLove
That looks nice, voxpelli
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cmal
indeed
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Zegnat
Was there some design reason not to have the wiki search box on the indieweb.org homepage? I keep looking for it...
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gRegorLove
Yeah, I'm wanting to do some more mixing of stuff, too. I like my single-page view for articles, but would like to include recent notes (non-replies) on the homepage, too.
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gRegorLove
Maybe one note with a left/right arrow to slide in the next/previous note.
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gRegorLove
Zegnat: I don't think it was purposeful, though maybe tricky
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: collaps them between every blog post and print like "11 notes were posted, beginning with "I ate a bagel for lunch..."
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gRegorLove
Number of notes since the last article, you mean?
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voxpelli
that would at least handle the frequency issue there is between posts and notes
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voxpelli
gRegorLove:posted inbetween the dates of two posts
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Zegnat
11 notes beginning with I ate a bagel?! That sounds like a great life! ;)
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gRegorLove
I don't have a stream view for articles, so this would just be above or below the article. Not sure which.
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Zegnat
joking aside, that sounds like a really clever way to solve the frequency issue... are there any examples of that out in the wild?
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gRegorLove
I do like the idea of "X more notes..." to indicate activity, though.
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gRegorLove
Could also encourage writing more articles. "100 notes since my last article?!"
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voxpelli
I think the showing of such numbers were one of the things we brought up at IWC Nürnberg when discussion our page designs
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voxpelli
and Jeremy Keith went on to add the numbers + sparklines to his site: https://adactio.com/
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Zegnat
Just to be clear, this is the feed design you mean: (top of page) [latest note/article] [expand X more notes link] [article] [expand X more notes link] [article] (repeat ad infinitum) ?
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voxpelli
as we noted that's actually something many silos did, but very few indie sites did, and it gives a great sense of activity of a site
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voxpelli
Zegnat: the one I imagined now, yeah
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voxpelli
Zegnat: kind of what eg. Twitter does for follow notifications in your notification tagb
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Zegnat
Oh, yes, wasn’t implying that was said at Nürnberg. Sadly I wasn’t there.
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Zegnat
hasn’t been on Twitter since IWC Düsseldorf
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Loqi
[indieweb] "#indieedtech #indieweb https://sandstorm.io/news/2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity "the only software services we get come courtesy of these gatekeepers. Experimental, indie, or amateur projects are rare."" by Grant Potter on 2016-08-18 http://known.networkeffects.ca/2016/indieedtech-indieweb-news2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity-the-only-software-services-we-get-come
plindner and snarfed joined the channel
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GWG
I fear that I am going to fall again to find interest in moving toward webmentions in WordPress
KartikPrabhu and singpolyma joined the channel
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GWG
Anyone have any ideas?
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miklb
you mean in core?
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cmal
GWG: are they considering of moving towards other social web protocols? (solid/activitypub) or just not doing social web at all?
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cmal
I mean are you looking for an argument in favor or the social web or webmention+mf2 specifically?
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GWG
Both I guess. Webmentions are most like what they have
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gRegorLove
What have been the objections so far?
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voxpelli
Sometimes it's all about timing and letting ideas settle and maintainers getting epiphanies of their own and being their with commit ready code for when they do
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miklb
GWG I would ping Ryan Boren and ask him. I've thought about doing it myself, but since I'm not actually using WP, I've been hesitant. Seems something very much up his alley these days.
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GWG
I haven't been able to articulate the benefits
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miklb
I thought there was a whole wiki committed to the benefits of IndieWeb and the protocols that are built around it.
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GWG
To WordPress specifically
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miklb
Considering Automattic just hired someone they are calling "designer for the Open Web", seems making WP more open would be a good place to start :-)
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miklb
anyway, just a thought
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@CaptainKurtis
@ChrisAldrich Check it out! Hopefully #indiewebcamp can do some cool stuff now that Url Forwarder is free software! https://github.com/daverix/urlforwarder/
(twitter.com/_/status/766362515282468864)
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sensiblemn
Url Forwarder is coming to f-droid soon too. https://f-droid.org/forums/topic/url-forwarder/
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sensiblemn
did you see this snarfed? i think you did a post about Url Forwarder too
gkbrk joined the channel
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Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] Easy IndieWeb interactions on Android
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sensiblemn
does having a free software license for it help at all?
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snarfed
maybe? probably not the key sticking point, if any
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snarfed
i do have experience building this kind of app :P https://github.com/snarfed/open-in-app
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sensiblemn
oh nice!
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sensiblemn
i don't use google products, so this is a big win for me. i wasn't able to use this app until now.
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sensiblemn
proprietary google products, i should say
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sensiblemn
they contribute to free software sometimes, from what i understand
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gkbrk
lately they have been open sourcing a lot of rust stuff
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voxpelli
They certainly do open source stuff, a couple of Google people are active in the IndieWeb as well
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sensiblemn
cool, yeah, i am trying to run all free software on my phone and laptops
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gkbrk
is there a downloadable database of indieweb.org
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gkbrk
or a sitemap?
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gkbrk
i found this but it doesn't look like it lists all pages https://indieweb.org/Special:AllPages
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aaronpk
you just have to click one of those links first
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gRegorLove
How large is the backup these days?
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gkbrk
aaronpk: yeah this seems like what i'm looking for https://indieweb.org/wiki/backup/data/
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aaronpk
make sure you download it to a case sensitive filesystem
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gkbrk
hmm i wonder if it's possible to have a distributed wiki system
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gkbrk
something like NNTP/Usenet for a global wiki
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Loqi
[indieweb] "@lindner Congratulations! For extending things a bit, be sure to check out: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/plugins/community/ so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. One of the things that made" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-18 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/lindner-congratulationsfor-extending-things-a-bit-be-sure-to-check
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bear
yes, if your talking read-only - but if you start talking about distributed edit merges and consolidation... there be dragons
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aaronpk
isn't that essentially what git solves?
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aaronpk
solves to the point of manually fixing edit conflicts anyway
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gkbrk
but with git you still need a central repo of sorts
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aaronpk
not really
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gkbrk
otherwise everyone would pull from different people and the files wouldn't match
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voxpelli
gkbrk: no, git is fully decentralized
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aaronpk
thanks to github, most people use it in a centralized way, but that's not part of git
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aaronpk
you can push and pull from anyone who has the repo
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gkbrk
how would the changes traverse the network of git repos
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aaronpk
it's decentralized, so you have to figure it out yourself
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bear
yes, git can be fully decentralized
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bear
but that makes the question of "what is the most current version" super hard
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sensiblemn
everyone could run their own gitlab instance
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aaronpk
you don't even need to run software like gitlab to host a git repo
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voxpelli
In general though – making things decentralized for the sake of decentralization rather than for the sake of any more specific utility doesn't pay off that well
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aaronpk
voxpelli++
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Loqi
voxpelli has 92 karma (84 in this channel)
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aaronpk
also indieweb is not about decentralizing everything. there are other efforts for that.
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aaronpk
indieweb is about decentralizing *your* website and online identity
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gkbrk
i wasn't talking about indieweb, it was just a random question
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aaronpk
attempts to keep this channel on topic
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snarfed
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 1099 karma (421 in this channel)
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gkbrk
sorry about going off-topic
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aaronpk
we usually keep the chatter about decentralized non-web things in #indiechat
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aaronpk
go nuts there tho! it's fun to talk about
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sensiblemn
indieweb sites can link to github, that's on topic
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sensiblemn
are there any indieweb ways to connect to gitlab yet?
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sensiblemn
running on your own server or someone else's
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voxpelli
sensiblemn: you mean like POSSE?
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aaronpk
let's see
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aaronpk
what is gitlab?
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Loqi
GitLab offers git repository management, code reviews, issue tracking, activity feeds and wikis https://indieweb.org/GitLab
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aaronpk
hm no indieweb examples there
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aaronpk
what is gogs?
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Loqi
Gogs is a self-hosted Git server with additional features such as issue management https://indieweb.org/Gogs
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aaronpk
that's the one i use
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sensiblemn
oh! hadn't heard of it
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sensiblemn
thanks aaronpk
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gkbrk
snarfed: HN replied btw
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voxpelli
The only POSSE there is to such things are issue management I think
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snarfed
gkbrk: pardon?
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gkbrk
i think i might have mistaken you for someone else
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snarfed
i think so
snarfed1, funwhilelost and cmal joined the channel
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@justmoon
@kevinmarks Thanks for the tweet! Love #indieweb - super-important work and exactly the right approach!! #protocols #web
(twitter.com/_/status/766382246316040192)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club LA 2016-08-24" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-18 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-08-24
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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jboy
cmal, LAG sounds like a good alternative to TechInc! Cheers for bringing it up.
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Loqi
jboy: Zegnat left you a message 5 hours, 12 minutes ago: nice pad, I will add it to https://indieweb.org/HWC#Getting_Started_or_Restarting after I have dinner (if nobody beats me to it) to get som exposure on the wiki
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snarfed1
gkbrk++ looks great!
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Loqi
gkbrk has 2 karma
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snarfed1
objectivity++
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Loqi
objectivity has 1 karma
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aaronpk
gkbrk++
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Loqi
gkbrk has 3 karma
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KevinMarks
Grr. Why is w3c using base64 encoding for hashes. What a pain in the arse for urls
dontTrustOver25, snarfed and [jgarber] joined the channel
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[jgarber]
Is anyone else having trouble with IndieAuth at the moment? Tried logging into my own site (https://sixtwothree.org) and https://indieweb.org and was met with different errors when using Twitter and GitHub.
#
Loqi
[jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-11 at 7:00pm UTC: can you confirm/add venue for next week's Homebrew Website Club DC? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-18-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks!
#
Loqi
[jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-12 at 1:02pm UTC: are you coming to the Leaders Summit? Can you RSVP here accordingly? https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders#RSVP
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[jgarber]
```The authentication provider replied with an error: csrf_detected```
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[jgarber]
```The authentication provider replied with an error: invalid_credentials```
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[jgarber]
Twitter:
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Loqi
[jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-16 at 10:19am UTC: is there a DC venue for Homebrew Website Club this week? https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#Where (assuming you haven't found another venue unless you speak-up soon!)
#
[jgarber]
GitHub:
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Loqi
Jason Garber h
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KartikPrabhu
err where is the log in button on the wiki homepage?
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[jgarber]
I had to go to an interior wiki page to find it in the top right.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah did that now
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KartikPrabhu
[jgarber]: yeah reproduced your error on Github
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: wiki log in troubles ^^^
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[jgarber]
@KartikPrabhu: Thank you for checking. Glad it’s not just me!
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KartikPrabhu
[jgarber]: if you use @ then the logs will link to the twitter handle which is not me
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aaronpk
can you clear your cookies and try again?
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aaronpk
(for indieauth.com)
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[jgarber]
Ah, I’m using Slack which shows you as “KartikPrabhu” but as a bot.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah Loqi bridge to Slack
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[jgarber]
aaronpk: Will do.
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[jgarber]
aaronpk: All good now. Thanks!
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aaronpk
cool thanks. you must have gotten caught in the cookie mixup thing I did a bit ago
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KartikPrabhu
same worked after cookie clearance
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aaronpk
it shouldn't happen again, so let me know if it does
mindB, snarfed and mlncn joined the channel
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@dangillmor
@harrisj IndieWebCamp next weekend in NYC... you'd find it interesting, I suspect. https://indieweb.org/2016/NYC2
(twitter.com/_/status/766411186439020544)
wolftune, plindner and KevinMarks joined the channel