#indieweb 2016-08-18

2016-08-18 UTC
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KevinMarks Using js to replace?
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aaronpk wow ie8? meh
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KartikPrabhu all my images are lazy loaded using js to get responsive images. I have been meaning to switch to srcset but srcset is very unmaintainable
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mblaney re: superfeedr, I think it's worth acknowledging the "centralization effects" of some services.
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mblaney for instance I've written and use my own hub, so don't need superfeedr.
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mblaney but I also blog about indieweb regularly, so maybe it's worth using them so I get picked up by their tracker?
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aaronpk that's not how it works though
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aaronpk they can subscribe to your hub
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aaronpk also mblaney you should add yourself to the list of hubs here! https://indieweb.org/PubSubHubbub
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aaronpk is your hub a separate project? or part of your site?
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mblaney oh I thought I did! :-)
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mblaney it's built into dobrado, which is my site.
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mblaney also thanks aaronpk for the clarification, I can ask superfeedr to subscribe to me??
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aaronpk awesome! definitely good to add to that list!
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aaronpk i thought there was a way to explicitly do that, but now i can't find the docs
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mblaney I found this:
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mblaney The scope for tracking feeds is the total number of feeds processed by Superfeedr. This includes feeds subscribed by subscribers and feeds published by publishers subscribed by at least one subscriber on their hubs. We are working on extending this coverage to include any subscribed feed on the web.
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aaronpk aha, so that does sound like they're missing the ability to subscribe to your and my hubs directly
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aaronpk unless someone else uses superfeedr to subscribe to us
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miklb might answer your question why Loqi doesn't pick up your posts aaronpk
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@aaronpk @AaronGustafson also feel free to join the chat! Either IRC or Slack. A little easier than back and forth in <140! https://indieweb.org/IRC (twitter.com/_/status/766073848307474432)
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aaronpk <3 my site search
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[aarongustafson] I’m about to call it a night, but I will sync up tomorrow
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aaronpk hey!
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aaronpk sounds good. definitely interested in tracking this down
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miklb [aarongustafson] anything from a testing standpoint I'll happily help
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GWG I am back
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rascul should updated posts go to the top of the feed? i'm not sure about this
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rascul i was thinking so, but now that i'm actually building the sort function, i'm thinking not
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aaronpk I went through this whole thought process a while ago
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aaronpk didnt end up launching it with my new site tho
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miklb with atom, isn't there a delineation between minor edit and major?
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rascul aaronpk what did you conclude?
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miklb my mistake, just a feature in a couple CMS to not update the timestamp if a minor edit
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AngeloGladding rascul what makes you hesitant to recent-first?
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rascul AngeloGladding if a post is updated, i might want it to be at the top so it gets visibility
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rascul recent-first is the idea, but i'm not sure if i want that to be based on modified date or original date
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AngeloGladding suppose it depends on *how* (frequently, markedly) you modify your data but i've had to work through this logic as well
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sknebel and reader-applications that parse your feed will likely only notice if you put it at the top or it's in the first X. but on the other hand a tiny correction on an old post isn't something you want to resurrect the post for (e.g. if you fix a dead link or something)
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rascul sknebel that is pretty much exactly what my thoughts were
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rascul i might add another coupld paragraphs to a post and want people to note the change, or i might add a missing comma
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AngeloGladding i'm sticking with posting all actions to a "stream" -- "created page XYZ" at 9pm, "wrote article ABC" at 9:30p, "updated page XYZ" at 10pm, "corrected article ABC" at 10:10p
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rascul ooo corrected, that gives me a new idea
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AngeloGladding changing a wiki page is different than changing a blog post, etc..
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rascul a date field, an updated field, and a corrected field
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AngeloGladding note the usage here
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AngeloGladding an article is "corrected"
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rascul if there's an updated field, sorting will be based on that, so that it will go up to the top, but sorting won't include a corrected field so that won't change the sorted position
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AngeloGladding that is, <strike>ingly modified and appended to lightly
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rascul updated could be for adding paragraphs, correcting for adding a comma
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AngeloGladding page is updated constantly and frequently using a diff
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AngeloGladding but yeah i see how you're interpreting it
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AngeloGladding and that's a good usage as well
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AngeloGladding kind of like "minor edit" on Wikimedia
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rascul yeah, i guess
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rascul all i know about minor edits is that they're secret because Loqi doesn't tell us about them ;)
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aaronpk My plan was to have a separate list of edits basically
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aaronpk kind of like the recent changes feed of the wiki
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rascul heh i just spent about 15 minutes debugging why my Post struct is empty when i add it to the array, to realize the function that returns the Post is returing an empty one instead of the actual one
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rascul i was so confused about that
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AngeloGladding i'm thinking of having /articles/corrections provide a concise summary of the type of ammendments i make to my past writings and /pages/changes providing a listing more akin to http://indieweb.org/Special:RecentChanges
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rascul aaronpk i could potentially do that also
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AngeloGladding the stream is very streamy and posts everything, sometimes held privately for my own logging purposes, but each resource type gets its own sort of chronological history viewer
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rascul i think what i'll do is have the three fields as i mentioned, date/updated/corrected, and i'll sort based on date/updated and i'll make a separate list of corrections
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AngeloGladding that makes me think
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AngeloGladding there's a major and minor edit of an article as well
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AngeloGladding just as much as a wiki page
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rascul mf2 lists only dt-published and dt-updated though
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rascul for h-entry anyway
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AngeloGladding hmm that's probably led my way of thought on a binary approach
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rascul i'll probably do some more thinking on this but for now i have a path forward
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AngeloGladding i look forward to parsing your posts
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AngeloGladding in whatever structure they come
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rascul i'm not too far from having my site generator to a point where i can start doing stuff with it
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rascul well, probably not far
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AngeloGladding i too am working through these problems of post type
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rascul the next big part once i finish these last bits of the code will be the templates, adapting the ones from my old site to fit the template engine i'm using now
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AngeloGladding i think everyone's doing it differently
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rascul i was using jinja2 for python, now i'm using liquid in rust, and i'm not really sure yet if this implementation will actually suit my needs
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KartikPrabhu what is edit?
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Loqi An edit (AKA diff, change) is a special type of reply that indicates a set of suggested changes to the post it is replying to. A collection of (presumably related) suggested edits in open source is often called a patch or pull request https://indieweb.org/edit
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AngeloGladding thank you
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KevinMarks_ At one point atom had 3 dates, but published and updated are it, though you can have a source with its own dated iirc
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KevinMarks_ There was created/issued/modified in atom 0.3
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KevinMarks_ Issued became published, modified became updated and created was dropped
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KevinMarks Today in rtl and security https://twitter.com/aredridel/status/766068791516114944
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@nickmalcolm What a neato hack! RTL URLs get flipped, making phishing easier! http://www.rafayhackingarticles.net/2016/08/google-chrome-firefox-address-bar.html #cybersecurity https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqGfgXGWcAEjG6R.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/766068791516114944)
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bear ah the joys of unicode
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KartikPrabhu that is weird....
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bear this person sounds perfect for IndieWeb -- http://www.heydonworks.com/article/on-writing-less-damn-code
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KartikPrabhu heydon writes pretty awesome stuff
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sknebel gkbrk: did the HN submission today show show up in your refbacks? HN has a referrer policy set that should hide the exact submission URL, but maybe an older browser or a crawler ignored that and it came through?
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gkbrk google analytics and the referrer script both showed entries from hacker news
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gkbrk the twitter refbacks were also from some hacker news bots
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gkbrk so it took a very small amount of time to find the related article
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gkbrk sknebel: i will check out if a full url somehow made it through, let me check
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gkbrk nope. looks like everyone uses conformant browsers
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sknebel gkbrk: thanks for checking!
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jboy gkbrk++ for properly misspelling referer
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Loqi gkbrk has 1 karma
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gkbrk i think this is the related line <meta name="referrer" content="origin">
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gkbrk does HN have secret URLs that are only accessed by logged-in people?
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gkbrk i am wondering why they chose to limit referers?
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sknebel that came up a while back, I don't think there was an authorative answer
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sknebel there are a few critical pages, but the normal submission pages aren't
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sknebel you could mail dang and ask
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gkbrk lobste.rs and reddit pass the whole url
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gkbrk the interesting thing that I recently found out is, android apps pass their full package name as a referrer
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sknebel huh
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gkbrk looks like this -> /2016/08/explaining-ed/ android-app://com.laurencedawson.reddit_sync
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gkbrk the second part is the referrer
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sknebel if you think HN shouldn't hide it you totally should mail the HN mods about it, they are nice and helpful in my experience
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gkbrk should I mail the support link there?
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gkbrk hn@ycombinator.com
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aaronpk Nice, gkbrk, saw your post pop up in my ##hackernews channel here!
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gkbrk there's a ##hackernews channel?
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gkbrk oh just a notification channel
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gkbrk i see
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jboy I think the semi-official HN IRC channel is #startups or something like that.
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aaronpk Yeah Loqi is in ##hackernews and reports when an article hits the front page
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aaronpk gkbrk; you missed an important distinction between track back and the others. Trackbacks work by having the sender post the full comment data, and there is no built in verification, so it's all spam and basically everyone disabled support for it a long time ago
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aaronpk with pingback and webmention the post request only contains the URL that reportedly links to you and you have to go check it out to verify it
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gkbrk aren't the text and title optional with trackbacks? I think you can only use the link there and perform the same verification
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gkbrk not sure about the implementations but the spec says there has to be a link
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gkbrk sknebel: all right i sent them a mail
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aaronpk Yeah they're optional. The spec doesn't even mention verification tho
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aaronpk also lol the Wikipedia article links to cweiske's archive of the spec http://archive.cweiske.de/trackback/trackback-1.2.html
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jboy !tell Zegnat I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gkbrk aaronpk: according to the webmention spec, a server can send a webmention with the same link if the article is updated right
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jboy !tell petermolnar I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gkbrk so a webmention-enabled website should handle duplicate submissons
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petermolnar https://pads.ccc.de -> SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER
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aaronpk Yes
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petermolnar y u no letsencrypt? :)
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gkbrk oh that just make implementations so much easier
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aaronpk thats mentioned in the spec actually
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gkbrk i can essentially add a step to my website build process that finds each link and sends webmentions to them, regardless of the article being updated
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aaronpk http://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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aaronpk yep!
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petermolnar !tell snarfed is there a way at the moment to query brid.gy for all syndications it did for a URL?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cmal oay I found more info, that sounds pretty bad in terms of censorship : http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37114313
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cmal now official: Persona is dead and buried https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/MDN/Contribute/Persona_sign-in
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petermolnar cmal the DNS change is a really big thing and I'm not certain I'm happy
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petermolnar we still have no alternative at all
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petermolnar except for .onion
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petermolnar but that's rather hard to remember...
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cmal there's also IPNS nowadays which is pretty solid (but only for static content)
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cmal but yeah we need something better, quickly :-/
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aaronpk wow I wonder what mozilla is switching to internally then
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aaronpk github login for the moz wiki doesn't surprise me i guess
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cmal aaronpk: apparently devs will have to use Github from now on
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cmal :)
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petermolnar IPNS relies on DNS TXT entry...
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petermolnar kind of useless
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cmal I'm wondering if we could add an overlay DHT on top of the root DNS, so as to allow anyone to register a new TLD that's not already on the root DNS
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prtksxna cmal: namecoin?
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cmal prtksxna++
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Loqi prtksxna has 7 karma
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cmal I had forgotten that one :)
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petermolnar namecoin is a pain at the moment; in theory, it works, but since .bit is not "officially" recognized, for regular folks, it's not an option
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GWG Morning
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cmal http://namecoin.info/docs/faq/ « An example of this usage is the ability to delegate .bit domain names to an external DNSSEC nameserver, authenticated by a DS record in the blockchain. »
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aaronpk hm apparently i didn't have a mozilla wiki account
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cmal so if I get it right it means we can easily create "registrars" on top of namecoin that will redirect all queries from say indieweb.bit to a standard DNS server that's not registered in the DNS root
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cmal correct?
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aaronpk who was it that tried to register a .bit recently? they had a whole rant about it
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petermolnar I did one recently; wasn't ranting though
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aaronpk mild frustration?
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cmal but what I don't really get is why make a cryptomoney out of it instead of a fully-open secure DHT?
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petermolnar nah, it wasn't the .bit reg, it was the getting nc part
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cmal (with say, a web-of-trust or pondering of trust in a node based on reputation or time spent in the network)
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aaronpk ah that's right
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petermolnar cmal because cryptomoney was the shiny shiny and it seemed like a good idea that time, I guee
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petermolnar guess
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aaronpk that sounds about right
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aaronpk here https://github.com/mwarning/KadNode
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aaronpk plenty of people are working on this, i'm just gonna wait until something shakes out
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aaronpk in the mean time, you can find me at aaronparecki.com
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cmal also because if I read properly it's built on Bitcoin-tech blockchain which if I remember correctly deals very badly with intended corruption from big contributors
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sknebel blockchain makes it easier to maintain a mapping to arbitrary names
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cmal (I seem to recall obtaining just 50% of the hashing power of Bitcoin is enough to fake data)
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cmal thanks for the link aaronpk :)
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aaronpk is anyone besides petermolnar trying out these alternative DNS for their own websites yet?
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sknebel because you have a central log and can check who owns a name. most other systems derive the name from a private key, so you can't choose a specific name
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petermolnar aaronpk I'm having light trouble serving the same content from different domains so even I don't really count
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cmal sknebel: I meant there's more resilient DHT algorithms that are designed to prevent majority attacks and such
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cmal there's plenty of very interesting research papers on the subject of secure DHTs
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petermolnar personally I don't believe in namecoin; I just wanted to try it out, to see how far had it gone
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cmal KadNode is interesting, but then again if many peers want to compromise the network, I don't see anything in the docs saying how to prevent it :-/
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schmarty i have a .onion version of my site (martymcgui.re) available at http://schmartyp7qtjzn7.onion/
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schmarty (also hello, long time lurker first time chatter)
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aaronpk we should collect a wiki page for these
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cmal hello :)
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schmarty i've also registered schmarty.bit on namecoin in order to have a "nice" "domain" for a zeronet site, but can't say that i've done more than a hello world with it.
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aaronpk welcome schmarty
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aaronpk oh hey you're on /irc-people already!
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schmarty thanks, @aaronpk!
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aaronpk and you have a micropub endpoint!
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schmarty haha, i do indeed. i started following indiewebcamp about a year ago and have slowly been indiewebifying my site and doing those little bits since then.
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Loqi rofl
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aaronpk wow awesome
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cmal schmarty++
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Loqi schmarty has 1 karma
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schmarty i'm still on the very low end. i've configured indieauth and have a custom flask-based micropub endpoint using quill as my client.
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schmarty looking forward to IWC NYC2 next week for more!
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GWG schmarty: Welcome aboard.
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schmarty thanks, @cmal and @GWG!
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GWG schmarty: I'll see you there.
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cmal also, is it now possible (or will it be) to have relative URLs in Wordpress so that you can natively support a .onion mirror of your site by just serving the WP install with .onion server_name ?
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snarfed petermolnar: hmm
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Loqi snarfed: petermolnar left you a message 55 minutes ago: is there a way at the moment to query brid.gy for all syndications it did for a URL?
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snarfed you mean, all silo posts it's backfed to that original post? or all u-syndication links it's crawled and stored for it?
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petermolnar the latter
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snarfed got it. no, but it's an interesting request
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snarfed related to https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/680
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petermolnar or maybe not
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snarfed is there a specific problem i can help with?
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snarfed also petermolnar aaronpk i tried (and failed) to acquire a namecoin and register a .bit recently, that may be what you're thinking of
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snarfed the software and processes are, um...rough
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petermolnar I can send you a few namecoins, I apparently bought too much
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snarfed ! thanks for the offer!
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snarfed i may be over it now though
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snarfed oh btw petermolnar you may also be interested in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579
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petermolnar on the brid.gy note: I either fire a direct bridgy call on my post publish or send a webmention later when I would like bridgy to send my article to social silo X. In the second case it's rather hard to tie it back to the post (at the moment), so I was thinking of backfilling the missing syndications by asking bridgy for all the syndicated urls for that post
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snarfed ohhhhhh for bridgy publish, i see
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snarfed you can get recent ones from your user page. http://brid.gy/about#api
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snarfed i can add paging to get older ones if you'd use it
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snarfed sounds like recent would be enough though
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petermolnar I'll try to parse that
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miklb ooh.That might be of use to me as well
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petermolnar though a JSON endpoint would be nice ;)
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petermolnar brid.gy/pleaselistsyndicationsfor/https://ur.l/
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snarfed parse mf2 :P
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petermolnar I saw that coming :)
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miklb going to stick with the bridgy response
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miklb which is actually my goal today, other work be damned :-)
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Zegnat Hello World
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Loqi Zegnat: jboy left you a message 2 hours, 34 minutes ago: I started collecting some ideas for an AMS event: https://pads.ccc.de/AtahYCXhnQ
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gkbrk schmarty: I was so excited to find a new reverse engineering blog when I saw your tld
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gkbrk never have i been more wrong
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schmarty gkbrk: haha, sorry. that would have been exciting! i imagine the island of Réunion won't mind the overloaded use. :}
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Loqi hehe
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schmarty my name is not uncommon, so i was excited to find this TLD
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Zegnat !tell jboy nice pad, I will add it to https://indieweb.org/HWC#Getting_Started_or_Restarting after I have dinner (if nobody beats me to it) to get som exposure on the wiki
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cmal I may drop by Amsterdam if you're organizing something :)
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cmal why not organize it at the LAG?
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cmal there's plenty of room in the whole social center to do pretty much what we need, we could probably also connect with their soup kitchen for very affordable or even free-price food
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cmal and on the plus side, it's totally NOT corporate^^
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Zegnat cmal, why not? because nobody brought it up yet.
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cmal (also, doing it there could attract some very people from the activist scene)
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cmal I'll document it on the pad
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Zegnat The whole idea got rolling when petermolnar said he was often in Amsterdam and would enjoy a HWC. I am in the Netherlands now, but not actually familiar with A’dam, so jboy has been adressing the “where”, mostly.
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cmal I've only spent a few months in Amsterdam but there was plenty of squats and social centers pretty much everywhere, so I'd consider it a real shame to give a single cent to a corporate entity to organize an event there :)
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Zegnat HWC is (usually tried as) a biweekly thing. So locations that would require us to pay every time should probably not even be considered
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cmal does it make sense to start organizing bi-weekly meetings before actually organizing a single one?
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Zegnat No, but does it make sense to pay for a venue the first time if you would not want to revisit them if it becomes a thing? ;)
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Zegnat So free places, possibly like LAG, would be prefered.
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cmal that does make sense :)
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cmal I never meant to intend we should give people money for having a little space and exchanging ideas #PropertyIsTheft
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Zegnat Otherwise random bars and cafes often work, if they are friendly to computer users. Göteborg is usually at the Steampunk Bar, and I think Portland HWC has also been at places like that.
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aaronpk most of the time PDX is at a bar or coffee shop
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Zegnat Thanks for confirmation, aaronpk. And, hi!
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cmal yeah but that raises the bar for people to come in, usually you even have to pay for a glass of water in bars (except in France where that's illegal) which is a shame
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aaronpk that's true. tho meetups at bars/coffee shops in PDX is a pretty normal thing
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cmal yeah, in Paris as well because police makes sure there's no alternative/squatted places where we can organize
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cmal but we shouldn't continue like this ;)
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gRegorLove Bellingham HWC is at a coffee shop too
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Zegnat I lived in the middle of nowhere too long to have a reference for where normal meetups happen :p
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jonnybarnes the indieweb wiki doesn’t have the {{about}} template
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jonnybarnes is this something we can fix?
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jonnybarnes I was going to use it to add a mention for atom.io on the atom page
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aaronpk what's the {{about}} template?
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jonnybarnes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:About
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@domenicoperri #usermedia - Aaron Parecki OSB 2015 - Micropub #IndieWeb https://twitter.com/kloptbaze/status/766002697703133184 (twitter.com/_/status/766320049909104640)
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jonnybarnes it lets you say you could have meant *this* at the top of ana rticle
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funwhilelost MediaWiki has a templating system that's heavily leveraged on Wikipedia. They often use the "ParserFunctions" extension to add logic to them as well. The source for the MediaWiki about template is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:About
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aaronpk that page is extremely overwhelming
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aaronpk what does it do?
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aaronpk also don't copy templates from wikipedia because copyright, but you can make a similar template if you want
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jonnybarnes Like where it says this page is a stub, it’d say this page is about xyz, for abc see [[...]]
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funwhilelost It looks like this one in particular follows the {{Hatnote}} template and leverages a Lua module: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:About
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jonnybarnes where xyz and abc would be very short descriptions
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aaronpk like to disambiguate a page?
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funwhilelost Yeah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hatnote
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jonnybarnes it can do
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aaronpk I would say just start simple and add that notice to the Atom page directly
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aaronpk if we need to do it again, make a simple template for it
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funwhilelost Agreed. It's really difficult to keep templates consistent unless there is a Wikipedia-sized moderator team to help guide new editors.
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jonnybarnes so just edit the atom page directly?
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funwhilelost So I've been diving in on new tech that could help push indie forward. Have you guys seen this? https://dokie.li/#publish
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funwhilelost @jonnybarnes - yeah
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jonnybarnes Like so? https://indieweb.org/Atom
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aaronpk that works
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aaronpk funwhilelost: are you using dokieli on your site?
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funwhilelost No, I've just been digging into some of the other tech.
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funwhilelost I know Tim Berners-Lee has been pushing the RDF and linked data stuff forever. He seems to be moving into "webmention" territory with the latest W3C working groups.
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aaronpk that's an interesting way of putting it
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funwhilelost Particularly: https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/
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aaronpk that is from the same group we published webmention through
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aaronpk funwhilelost: what is your website? I just noticed you're not linked in the chat logs
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funwhilelost funwhilelost.com
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funwhilelost It's Known right now.
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voxpelli morning!
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aaronpk cool. it looks like you're all set up to sign in to the wiki, add yourself here? https://indieweb.org/irc-people
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funwhilelost You bet.
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jonnybarnes TB-L doing this as well: https://solid.mit.edu
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gkbrk aaronpk: i wrote this https://indieweb.org/refback. I think the list part might be incorrect, should I replace it with subsections?
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[kevinmarks] Yes, several of the solid people are in socialwg
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aaronpk gkbrk: nice! looks fine to me
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gkbrk also is hosted services (like Google Analytics, Disqus, surveys etc.) relevant to the wiki?
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aaronpk if someone is using it on their site then yes
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/wikify#Should_this_be_on_the_wiki
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snarfed what is analytics
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Loqi analytics needs a definition by someone who understands what it is and cares about it https://indieweb.org/analytics
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aaronpk haha snarfed++
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Loqi aaronpk: lol
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voxpelli gkbrk: they often appear as silo examples on something like: https://indieweb.org/reply#Silo_Examples
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gkbrk what is refback
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Loqi Refback is a linkback method that works using the standard HTTP Referer header https://indieweb.org/refback
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gkbrk nailed the dfn tag
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funwhilelost Yeah, I've been keeping my eye on Solid.
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cmal is it considered bad practice to store a file pointer in APCU? I'm guessing with proper flocking it shouldn't do any harm
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funwhilelost I read the spec and looked at some of the projects. Would love to know if there's a piece of software that's easy to install and try out.
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voxpelli gkbrk: some improvement suggestions: you might want to make the refback page sound a bit less like an advertisement – drop some statements like "dead simple to implement" – and add an IndieWeb Examples section with perhaps yourself in if you have implemented it :)
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gRegorLove What is Disqus?
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Loqi Disqus is a comments hosting silo https://indieweb.org/Disqus
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gRegorLove What is Google Analytics?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Analytics" yet. Would you like to create it?
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Zegnat what is analytics?
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Loqi analytics needs a definition by someone who understands what it is and cares about it https://indieweb.org/analytics
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Zegnat gRegorLove, Google Analytics is on that page, actually ^
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gkbrk i might work on the analytics page later
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funwhile_ Ah, maybe I'll try to set up a "gold" server and play with it: https://github.com/linkeddata/gold
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gRegorLove Sure, but it could probably use a dfn
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voxpelli first time I've seen Google Analytics and New Relic on the same page :)
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gRegorLove Google Analytics is a service to track and report website traffic.
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Loqi ok
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Zegnat voxpelli, I think that analytics page mostly just grew straight out of http://indieweb.org/2011/Web_Analytics
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voxpelli gRegorLove: not better to just redirect the GA page to the general analytics page for now? Can one do that + have a dfn at the same time?
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gRegorLove ::shrug:: I think it's fine to have pages for specific services and separate pages for the overall concept
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voxpelli I use New Relic to get an insight in whether my webmention endpoint can handle the load or not – but I use no analytics of the visitors :)
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voxpelli gRegorLove: somewhat suboptimal when descriptions of things get fragmented across many pages and maybe improved and duplicated across the wiki – makes discovery etc harder
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gkbrk i have google analytics but my stats are really thrown off by the fact that most of my readers are programmers
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miklb agreed. WordPress & Jekyll suffer from that already
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gkbrk and programmers love ad blockers, which block analytics
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voxpelli miklb: Joh, yeah, Jekyll situation and GitHub / GitHub Pages situation is so so fragmented and weirdly interlinked :'(
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voxpelli s/joh/oh/
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funwhile_ Who misses AWStats?
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voxpelli funwhile_: it certainly gave a better view of the traffic to the servers, but even more than GA was suspect to referrer spam and such :P
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gkbrk referrer spam doesn't exist
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gkbrk it's just helpful devs and their scripts
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk just wait
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Zegnat Piwik is also pretty prone to referrer spam. So much so that they have an open-sourced blacklist somewhere. I once, made a pull request to it with a whole list of fake referrers I received
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gkbrk suggesting you cool websites to visit
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gkbrk i automated my referrers so they get added to my bookmarks
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Zegnat I added 67 domains to the Piwik blacklist, from a 14 day span on a relatively unknown domain (https://github.com/piwik/referrer-spam-blacklist/pull/37). Just stopped doing statistics after that.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Creating vCards from h-cards" by Brandon Rozek on 2015-12-27 http://brandonrozek.com/2015/12/creating-vcards-from-h-cards/
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voxpelli aaronpk++ for dates in Superfeedr posts now :)
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Loqi aaronpk has 1098 karma (420 in this channel)
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aaronpk it's very helpful :)
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gkbrk aaronpk: some of those helpful devs even find my email address from my website and send me emails about their new awesome products
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@kevinmarks “We need to build stateless protocols like the Web that can be incrementally improved upon…” -@justmoon https://medium.com/@justmoon/the-subtle-tyranny-of-blockchain-91d98b8a3a65#.3n5b2reme #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/766337503087300610)
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Loqi [indieweb] "“We need to build stateless protocols like the Web that can be incrementally improved upon…” -@justmoon https://medium.com/@justmoon/the-subtle-tyranny-of-blockchain-91d98b8a3a65#.3n5b2reme #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-08-18 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/we-need-to-build-stateless-protocols-like-the-web-that
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snarfed mmm dupelicious
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snarfed oh boy, unrelated, https://en.blog.wordpress.com/2016/08/18/its-time-apply-for-early-access-to-your-own-blog-domain-name/
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KartikPrabhu why not use the stateless protocol called the Web instead of "building" new ones?
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aaronpk hey at least .blog isn't restricted to wordpress sites
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snarfed aaronpk: heh. on the contrary, looks like you can even reserve eg wordpress.blog or automattic.blog : https://get.blog/confirm-domain
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Zegnat .blog still feels like a bit of a gimmick, I do not get the whole trying to label/classify websites using tlds. Might just be me.
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[kevinmarks] Are they going to give out ev.blog and redirect to medium?
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aaronpk Zegnat: it's not just you :)
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aaronpk snarfed: lol! they didn't even reserve wordpress.blog!
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snarfed maybe they have, just further into the process. still.
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aaronpk oh maybe. it doesn't complain about dave.blog , although the fee for that is $10000
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miklb I'd guess since it's pre-registration, trademarked names will get sorted out
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snarfed right, most are $250, but some are $5k or $10k
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aaronpk or $10000
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snarfed and for some reason ryan.blog is $100k
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-08-18-11-19-29.png
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snarfed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-08-18-11-20-00.png
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snarfed is fine with .org-only
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miklb they should give me mine since I was an early beta tester of wp.com :-P
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Zegnat Well, those prices seem to proof my gimmick comment, haha
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Loqi hehe
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aaronpk google.blog is only $250
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aaronpk what a bizarre list of words to choose as premium
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[kevinmarks] I thought Google was bidding for the tld
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Zegnat wow. my name is $500 (+220), and I don’t even have an internationally viable name
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snarfed if multiple people pre-register the same domain, it becomes an auction, so they're depending on IP owners pre-registering
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snarfed aka "sunrise" phase
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aaronpk matt.blog $250
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[kevinmarks] Common pattern with these. Is the renewal the same or is that uniform?
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aaronpk this is just the early application fee
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aaronpk it'll be like $30/yr once it's open
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voxpelli other domains with premium ones often cost a lot per year as well
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Zegnat So you pay 220 now in order to possibly enter a bidding war (that you might lose), or you wait ’til November 21 and just get a domain that’s free for $30?
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aaronpk doesn't it sound like fun to run a TLD?
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voxpelli when you charge $10k/year for a single domain it does sound fairly profitable at least :P
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gRegorLove snarfed: That WP slug was misleading; I thought they were actually going to start giving out free domain names for wordpress.com blogs, hah
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aaronpk that was my first thought too lol
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gkbrk we can run our own tld right, if we get everyone to use our dns servers instead of the root ones
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snarfed huh. what implied free?
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snarfed eh no matter
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aaronpk gkbrk: yeah sure. i run .dev for myself
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Zegnat gkbrk, we could also petition OpenNIC to create a TLD for us, which gives us a complete DNS infrastructure already in place
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cmal gkbrk: yeah, now we just need the proper techs to actually share our zones :D
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gRegorLove .blog seems weird because it's a dated term by this point. Some TLDs I can see some sense to, but not .blog
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aaronpk gRegorLove: that was my second thought!
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cmal Zegnat: isn't OpenNIC a centralized architecture?
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gRegorLove Haha
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gRegorLove aaronpk and I are on the same wavelength today I guess
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cmal (as in, alternative DNS root)
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voxpelli cmal: IPFS then ;)
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aaronpk everything is centralized at some level
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gRegorLove A mental thing I've had to work through is I've thought "my site is a blog" for so long, but with all this indieweb stuff I'm adding (events, notes, etc.) it's more than just a blog. It's just my site.
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Zegnat I don’t know how IPFS handles DNS, but it would seem hard to make non-centralised DNS roots.
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aaronpk if you want unambiguous resolution of names, you have to have something centralized somewhere
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voxpelli aaronpk: until we have solar powered computers that communicate with our personal space satellites that federate together in the infinite galaxy!
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Zegnat You would end-up with duplicate domains otherwise
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Zegnat (what aaronpk said)
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gRegorLove indie satellites!
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miklb gRegorLove is that due to constraints on what people think of when they see "blog" versus the origins of a "web log"?
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aaronpk the centralization might be an organization like ICANN or OpenNIC, or more procedural or algorithmic like the blockchain
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Zegnat Satellites are expensive, could we start with balloons?
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Zegnat Or, I guess balloons will deeper the confusion between indieweb.org and ind.ie …
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aaronpk 😂
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gRegorLove miklb: Well, I guess the origin "web log" can be broader, but obviously its most common implementation was "article" type content.
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cmal well there's centralized and "centralized", if your central point is a somewhat-secure DHT then I wouldn't really call that centralization anymore
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gRegorLove So yeah "blog" to me kind of invokes "personal, medium-to-long posts"
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cmal voxpelli: IPNS is perfect for public view of websites/blogs but it's only for static content, I think it's more of a content-resolution protocol than address-resolution
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cmal (correct me if I'm wrong)
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Zegnat Wow. I hadn’t visited ind.ie in a while. It makes no sense to me that their homepage is now a browser extension for blocking third party trackers 🙈
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gRegorLove Zegnat: Haha, that took me a moment (re: balloons)
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Zegnat gRegorLove, I am here to keep you sharp ;)
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aaronpk up until relatively recently, I had a totally separate domain that was my blog
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voxpelli cmal: harder to make dynamic content fully decentralized with no single point of ownership / failure etc
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aaronpk my site was more static/portfolio content before that
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cmal voxpelli: .onion does that pretty well, except it's not human-readable
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aaronpk i could see a lot of companies using .blog though, since they already tend to use separate domains for their blog content
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voxpelli my site is still mainly a blog, with other kinds of content added as separate tabs / sub sections
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aaronpk bets on what % of .blog domains will be powered by medium?
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voxpelli aaronpk: but do you think SEO-people will allow the blog to be on a separate tld?
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cmal (and also it relies on the TOR protocol to access the remote content :-/)
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voxpelli speaking of ones blog btw, I really like how https://sixcolors.com/ is mixing in additional content with it's unique blog content
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cmal aaronpk earlier linked to this : https://github.com/mwarning/KadNode
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Zegnat aaronpk, I am not sure what the real overlap is between the people (and companies) using Medium to blog, and the people (and companies) willing to get a separate .blog domain for it.
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voxpelli been kind of wanting to copy Six Colors pattern for my blog
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gRegorLove That looks nice, voxpelli
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cmal indeed
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Zegnat Was there some design reason not to have the wiki search box on the indieweb.org homepage? I keep looking for it...
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gRegorLove Yeah, I'm wanting to do some more mixing of stuff, too. I like my single-page view for articles, but would like to include recent notes (non-replies) on the homepage, too.
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gRegorLove Maybe one note with a left/right arrow to slide in the next/previous note.
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gRegorLove Zegnat: I don't think it was purposeful, though maybe tricky
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voxpelli gRegorLove: collaps them between every blog post and print like "11 notes were posted, beginning with "I ate a bagel for lunch..."
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gRegorLove Number of notes since the last article, you mean?
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voxpelli that would at least handle the frequency issue there is between posts and notes
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voxpelli gRegorLove:posted inbetween the dates of two posts
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Zegnat 11 notes beginning with I ate a bagel?! That sounds like a great life! ;)
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gRegorLove Haha
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gRegorLove I don't have a stream view for articles, so this would just be above or below the article. Not sure which.
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Zegnat joking aside, that sounds like a really clever way to solve the frequency issue... are there any examples of that out in the wild?
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gRegorLove I do like the idea of "X more notes..." to indicate activity, though.
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gRegorLove Could also encourage writing more articles. "100 notes since my last article?!"
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voxpelli I think the showing of such numbers were one of the things we brought up at IWC Nürnberg when discussion our page designs
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voxpelli and Jeremy Keith went on to add the numbers + sparklines to his site: https://adactio.com/
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voxpelli as did aaronpk: https://aaronparecki.com/
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Zegnat Just to be clear, this is the feed design you mean: (top of page) [latest note/article] [expand X more notes link] [article] [expand X more notes link] [article] (repeat ad infinitum) ?
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voxpelli as we noted that's actually something many silos did, but very few indie sites did, and it gives a great sense of activity of a site
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voxpelli Zegnat: the one I imagined now, yeah
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voxpelli Zegnat: kind of what eg. Twitter does for follow notifications in your notification tagb
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Zegnat Oh, yes, wasn’t implying that was said at Nürnberg. Sadly I wasn’t there.
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Zegnat hasn’t been on Twitter since IWC Düsseldorf
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@grantpotter #indieedtech #indieweb https://sandstorm.io/news/2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity "the only software services we get come courtesy of these .. http://known.networkeffects.ca/2016/indieedtech-indieweb-news2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity-the-only-software-services-we-get-come (twitter.com/_/status/766351167098093568)
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Loqi [indieweb] "#indieedtech #indieweb https://sandstorm.io/news/2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity "the only software services we get come courtesy of these gatekeepers. Experimental, indie, or amateur projects are rare."" by Grant Potter on 2016-08-18 http://known.networkeffects.ca/2016/indieedtech-indieweb-news2016-08-17-decentralization-is-about-diversity-the-only-software-services-we-get-come
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GWG I fear that I am going to fall again to find interest in moving toward webmentions in WordPress
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GWG Anyone have any ideas?
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miklb you mean in core?
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cmal GWG: are they considering of moving towards other social web protocols? (solid/activitypub) or just not doing social web at all?
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cmal I mean are you looking for an argument in favor or the social web or webmention+mf2 specifically?
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GWG Both I guess. Webmentions are most like what they have
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gRegorLove What have been the objections so far?
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voxpelli Sometimes it's all about timing and letting ideas settle and maintainers getting epiphanies of their own and being their with commit ready code for when they do
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miklb GWG I would ping Ryan Boren and ask him. I've thought about doing it myself, but since I'm not actually using WP, I've been hesitant. Seems something very much up his alley these days.
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GWG I haven't been able to articulate the benefits
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miklb I thought there was a whole wiki committed to the benefits of IndieWeb and the protocols that are built around it.
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GWG To WordPress specifically
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miklb Considering Automattic just hired someone they are calling "designer for the Open Web", seems making WP more open would be a good place to start :-)
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miklb anyway, just a thought
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@CaptainKurtis @ChrisAldrich Check it out! Hopefully #indiewebcamp can do some cool stuff now that Url Forwarder is free software! https://github.com/daverix/urlforwarder/ (twitter.com/_/status/766362515282468864)
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sensiblemn Url Forwarder is coming to f-droid soon too. https://f-droid.org/forums/topic/url-forwarder/
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sensiblemn did you see this snarfed? i think you did a post about Url Forwarder too
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snarfed sensiblemn: yup, different but similar. https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Easy IndieWeb interactions on Android
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sensiblemn does having a free software license for it help at all?
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snarfed maybe? probably not the key sticking point, if any
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snarfed i do have experience building this kind of app :P https://github.com/snarfed/open-in-app
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sensiblemn oh nice!
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sensiblemn i don't use google products, so this is a big win for me. i wasn't able to use this app until now.
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sensiblemn proprietary google products, i should say
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sensiblemn they contribute to free software sometimes, from what i understand
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gkbrk yeah
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gkbrk lately they have been open sourcing a lot of rust stuff
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voxpelli They certainly do open source stuff, a couple of Google people are active in the IndieWeb as well
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sensiblemn cool, yeah, i am trying to run all free software on my phone and laptops
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gkbrk is there a downloadable database of indieweb.org
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gkbrk or a sitemap?
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gkbrk i found this but it doesn't look like it lists all pages https://indieweb.org/Special:AllPages
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/Special:AllPages is the full list
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aaronpk you just have to click one of those links first
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aaronpk there's also this https://indieweb.org/wiki/backup/data/
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aaronpk more info: https://indieweb.org/wiki/backup
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gRegorLove How large is the backup these days?
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aaronpk 92mb
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gkbrk aaronpk: yeah this seems like what i'm looking for https://indieweb.org/wiki/backup/data/
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aaronpk make sure you download it to a case sensitive filesystem
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gkbrk hmm i wonder if it's possible to have a distributed wiki system
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gkbrk something like NNTP/Usenet for a global wiki
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Loqi [indieweb] "@lindner Congratulations! For extending things a bit, be sure to check out: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/plugins/community/ so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. One of the things that made" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-18 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/lindner-congratulationsfor-extending-things-a-bit-be-sure-to-check
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bear yes, if your talking read-only - but if you start talking about distributed edit merges and consolidation... there be dragons
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aaronpk isn't that essentially what git solves?
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aaronpk solves to the point of manually fixing edit conflicts anyway
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gkbrk but with git you still need a central repo of sorts
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aaronpk not really
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gkbrk otherwise everyone would pull from different people and the files wouldn't match
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voxpelli gkbrk: no, git is fully decentralized
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aaronpk thanks to github, most people use it in a centralized way, but that's not part of git
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aaronpk you can push and pull from anyone who has the repo
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gkbrk how would the changes traverse the network of git repos
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aaronpk it's decentralized, so you have to figure it out yourself
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bear yes, git can be fully decentralized
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aaronpk ;-)
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bear but that makes the question of "what is the most current version" super hard
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sensiblemn everyone could run their own gitlab instance
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aaronpk you don't even need to run software like gitlab to host a git repo
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voxpelli In general though – making things decentralized for the sake of decentralization rather than for the sake of any more specific utility doesn't pay off that well
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aaronpk voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 92 karma (84 in this channel)
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sensiblemn true
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aaronpk also indieweb is not about decentralizing everything. there are other efforts for that.
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aaronpk indieweb is about decentralizing *your* website and online identity
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gkbrk i wasn't talking about indieweb, it was just a random question
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aaronpk attempts to keep this channel on topic
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 1099 karma (421 in this channel)
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gkbrk sorry about going off-topic
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aaronpk we usually keep the chatter about decentralized non-web things in #indiechat
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aaronpk go nuts there tho! it's fun to talk about
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sensiblemn indieweb sites can link to github, that's on topic
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sensiblemn are there any indieweb ways to connect to gitlab yet?
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sensiblemn running on your own server or someone else's
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voxpelli sensiblemn: you mean like POSSE?
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sensiblemn yeeee
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aaronpk let's see
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aaronpk what is gitlab?
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Loqi GitLab offers git repository management, code reviews, issue tracking, activity feeds and wikis https://indieweb.org/GitLab
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aaronpk hm no indieweb examples there
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aaronpk what is gogs?
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Loqi Gogs is a self-hosted Git server with additional features such as issue management https://indieweb.org/Gogs
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aaronpk that's the one i use
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sensiblemn oh! hadn't heard of it
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sensiblemn thanks aaronpk
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gkbrk snarfed: HN replied btw
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voxpelli The only POSSE there is to such things are issue management I think
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voxpelli And on that topic: http://voxpelli.com/social/2016/07/76599/
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snarfed gkbrk: pardon?
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gkbrk i think i might have mistaken you for someone else
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snarfed i think so
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@justmoon @kevinmarks Thanks for the tweet! Love #indieweb - super-important work and exactly the right approach!! #protocols #web (twitter.com/_/status/766382246316040192)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club LA 2016-08-24" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-18 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/homebrew-website-club-la-2016-08-24
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gkbrk I did this, is it better or worse? https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=website-analytics&diff=prev&oldid=30140
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aaronpk nice
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jboy cmal, LAG sounds like a good alternative to TechInc! Cheers for bringing it up.
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Loqi jboy: Zegnat left you a message 5 hours, 12 minutes ago: nice pad, I will add it to https://indieweb.org/HWC#Getting_Started_or_Restarting after I have dinner (if nobody beats me to it) to get som exposure on the wiki
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snarfed1 gkbrk++ looks great!
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Loqi gkbrk has 2 karma
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snarfed1 objectivity++
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Loqi objectivity has 1 karma
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aaronpk gkbrk++
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Loqi gkbrk has 3 karma
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KevinMarks Grr. Why is w3c using base64 encoding for hashes. What a pain in the arse for urls
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[jgarber] Is anyone else having trouble with IndieAuth at the moment? Tried logging into my own site (https://sixtwothree.org) and https://indieweb.org and was met with different errors when using Twitter and GitHub.
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Loqi [jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-11 at 7:00pm UTC: can you confirm/add venue for next week's Homebrew Website Club DC? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-18-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks!
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Loqi [jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-12 at 1:02pm UTC: are you coming to the Leaders Summit? Can you RSVP here accordingly? https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders#RSVP
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[jgarber] ```The authentication provider replied with an error: csrf_detected```
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[jgarber] ```The authentication provider replied with an error: invalid_credentials```
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[jgarber] Twitter:
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Loqi [jgarber]: tantek left you a message on 2016-05-16 at 10:19am UTC: is there a DC venue for Homebrew Website Club this week? https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#Where (assuming you haven't found another venue unless you speak-up soon!)
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[jgarber] GitHub:
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Loqi Jason Garber h
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KartikPrabhu err where is the log in button on the wiki homepage?
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[jgarber] I had to go to an interior wiki page to find it in the top right.
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KartikPrabhu yeah did that now
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KartikPrabhu [jgarber]: yeah reproduced your error on Github
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: wiki log in troubles ^^^
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[jgarber] @KartikPrabhu: Thank you for checking. Glad it’s not just me!
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KartikPrabhu [jgarber]: if you use @ then the logs will link to the twitter handle which is not me
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aaronpk can you clear your cookies and try again?
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aaronpk (for indieauth.com)
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[jgarber] Ah, I’m using Slack which shows you as “KartikPrabhu” but as a bot.
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KartikPrabhu yeah Loqi bridge to Slack
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[jgarber] aaronpk: Will do.
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[jgarber] aaronpk: All good now. Thanks!
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aaronpk cool thanks. you must have gotten caught in the cookie mixup thing I did a bit ago
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KartikPrabhu same worked after cookie clearance
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aaronpk it shouldn't happen again, so let me know if it does
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@dangillmor @harrisj IndieWebCamp next weekend in NYC... you'd find it interesting, I suspect. https://indieweb.org/2016/NYC2 (twitter.com/_/status/766411186439020544)
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