#indieweb 2016-08-17

2016-08-17 UTC
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snarfed thanks ChrisAldrich! you're very observant, i hadn't actually announced that yet... :P
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snarfed still need to add publication support. pretty much done though, hoping to launch and announce tonight!~
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ChrisAldrich I saw the sign written on the wall and thought maybe I had missed something earlier in the week. Now if only Medium would add webmention natively...
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aaronpk o.O
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mblaney I added blacklisting and whitelisting recently for webmentions, feel like they should be up there with vouch as answers to spam?
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mblaney simpler to implement, and might even push back the need for anything more complicated (like vouch). but who knows, not a problem you want to wish upon yourself...
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aaronpk mblaney: if you've got that working then definitely add that as an example!
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mblaney hey aaronpk, sure did you have a page in mind?
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aaronpk maybe https://indieweb.org/spam ?
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aaronpk interesting, the first thing gmail did to fight spam after trying spamassassin out of the box, was to add filters to guess the sending domain of the email!
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aaronpk reasoning: "domains being harder to obtain and more stable than IPs"
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aaronpk considers adding all failed pingback domains to a domain blacklist
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miklb vaguely remembers privately sharing a black list for blocking domains & IPs in .htaccess
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mblaney nice /spam already mentioned blacklist and whitelists so just added an Indieweb examples section.
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mblaney actually I might update that to say I check domains only. I feel like we're in a post-IP era :-)
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mblaney anybody else doing spam prevention? all my domains are so quiet I feel like it was over-engineering, but just trying to be a good netizen.
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snarfed re domain blacklists, also feel free to check out bridgy's: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/domain_blacklist.txt
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snarfed it's an optimization for domains to skip webmention discovery that we know don't accept them, not known spammers, but still
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aaronpk omgomgomg i'm gonna have site search on my site again
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 1097 karma (419 in this channel)
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aaronpk it's alive!
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/search?q=spam
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aaronpk still indexing
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aaronpk i decided to use the same list view when rendering search results, rather than try to create a summary view like google
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snarfed looks great!
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aaronpk thanks!
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aaronpk i want to add all sorts of features to it now, but it's a good first step
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snarfed is it database backed? elasticsearch? google api?
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aaronpk elasticsearch!
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aaronpk indexing complete. 10 minutes isn't too bad to load in all my posts
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mblaney aaronpk: regarding spam and especially email spam, and after seeing your post about working on gmail, I've always wondered why DKIM hasn't solved the spam problem for email. I mean if DKIM passes and you explicitly mark a post as spam or not spam, surely that rule is good for all email from a domain from then on?
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aaronpk that seems reasonable
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mblaney yes I agree, except I use gmail every day and it continues to get both wrong. I don't get it.
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KevinMarks_ Hm, I should add that list to mention.tech and just store the webmention but not try to send it?
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KevinMarks_ That scoble rant on not competing with Facebook is going to look amusing in 10 years
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aaronpk set a Loqi timer :)
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KevinMarks_ https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061016/153721.shtml
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KevinMarks_ To be fair, Mike is not being as absolute as Robert
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aaronpk i don't actually know what posts you're talking about
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KevinMarks_ https://aaronparecki.com/2015/10/30/14/facebook
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Robert Scoble - I noticed that a few people keep asking about
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KevinMarks_ Remind me to laugh at https://aaronparecki.com/2015/10/30/14/Facebook in 5 years
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Robert Scoble - I noticed that a few people keep asking about
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KevinMarks_ Hm, I forget the loqi magic words
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KevinMarks_ Mblaney: dkim doesn't help if someone has their mail client hijacked to send spam from their real account
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GWG davidpeach was back on WP? I'm so thrilled.
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mblaney KevinMarks: sure I get it's not perfect, but I send mail that has the correct headers and still get marked as spam.
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mblaney hijacked should get marked as such, hopefully temporarily. dkim is still correct in this case too because it is still coming from the right place.
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mblaney also I think it's:
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mblaney 5 years until Kevin laughs at https://aaronparecki.com/2015/10/30/14/Facebook
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2021-08-17 12:04pm AEST (#5901)
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Robert Scoble - I noticed that a few people keep asking about
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mblaney haha
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Loqi awesome
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mblaney no you're awesome Loqi
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aaronpk 2021 seems impossibly far away
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aaronpk course that's what i said about 2016 in 2011
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mblaney I'm not sure why we're laughing anyway... that Scoble quote is down right depressing! Here's to trying for the next 5 years anyway! :-D
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aaronpk speaking of 5 years ago, the first post on my site when I search for "indieweb" is a bookmark of http://avc.com/2011/01/the-independent-web/
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mblaney to put a positive spin on it, I think we do need to see more indieweb businesses over the next 5 years, progressively aimed at generations 2,3,4.
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mblaney I can't see advertising working for us, so that means aiming at a value proposition for a service that costs money, but provides something facebook doesn't.
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mblaney only way through the Scoble dillema.
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aaronpk woo just fixed my search to support paging!
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aaronpk this post from the gmail guy is full of gold quotes
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aaronpk also TIL webmention.io is pretty slow at processing webmentions. not sure when that happened.
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aaronpk i'm sending webmentions to myself, and they take a while for webmention.io to process
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aaronpk interesting. this sounds similar to vouch: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/16/27/spam
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] > Another approach would be to allow cross-signing - an entity with good reputation can temporarily countersign mail to give it a reputational boost and trigger cross-propagation of reputations. That entity could employ whatever techniques they liked...
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aaronpk here's my series of quotes I pulled from that article https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/16/15/spam
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Now reading https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2014/000780.html to get some ideas for https://indieweb.org/spam > I worked at Google for about 7.5 years. For about 4.5 of those I worked on the Gmail abuse team, which is very tightly l...
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aaronpk i made a collection post with the quotes because i can now! https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/16/28/spam
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Some select quotes from this fantastic post by someone who used to work on the Gmail anti-spam systems.
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sknebel huh, that totally does not look like it is intended to be a single post to me
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aaronpk it's not
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aaronpk what is a collection?
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Loqi A collection is a type of post that explicitly lists and/or embeds multiple other posts chosen by the author https://indieweb.org/collection
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sknebel I guess the "is a type of post" is somewhat a detail that doesn't have to show up in the UI
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sknebel to me it's not visibly clear that the top post is the context/framing for the others on the page?
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aaronpk that is true
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sknebel (that is the collection post, right?)
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aaronpk well, the collection is all of them, but yeah that piece only exists at that URL
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sknebel looks to me like a collection of posts, not a post containing a selection of posts
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aaronpk that's what a collection post is, at least to me
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sknebel which is functionally not all that important, but caused a mental mismatch initially
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aaronpk (a collection of posts that is)
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aaronpk i might just drop that top post actually
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aaronpk my previous implementation of collections didn't support that
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KevinMarks_ I think it's useful
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KevinMarks_ Links with narration between
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KevinMarks_ Storify is the silo pattern there
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@johnjoseph I just registered for IndieWebCamp NYC. https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/nyc2-2016 (twitter.com/_/status/765805661695438848)
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mblaney AngeloGladding: if you're looking at what people are trying to convey with their h-card, I also have rel=feed in mine. and if you want to go even further I also have indie-actions in there.
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mblaney sorry wrong channel :-P
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petermolnar !tell davidpeach re: "decided to move back to wordpress as I was publishing less and tinkering with my site's code too much" - this is why I'm trying to get _away_ from WordPress :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Congrats aaronpk and everyone else who worked on Micropub: https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/CR-micropub-20160816/
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Loqi tantek: GWG left you a message 3 days, 6 hours ago: Having trouble finding people on their profile who mention NYC
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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tantek !tell GWG also search Twitter for PDF14 indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [indieweb] " @botwikidotorg about moderation: I have 2 implementations going on, one at @buzzworkers using Wordpress, another at @EUwatchers using wordpress & my own personal using @WithKnown. - on my personal site (here) I have never faced serious Spam. sometimes occasional "paper.li" auto-generated tweets but that's about the most serious I have gotten here. right now Known does not have yet a way to moderate spam, but there is an Akismet plugin for Known installed here just in case webmentions spam is going to take off. - Now on the wordpress indieweb sites I run I have seen more "spam" then Known. first the typical linkback kind of spam but also social media spam and the usual wordpress comments kind of spam. the IndieWeb implementation on Wordpress is good regarding moderation, basically webmentions are like any comments: they can be moderated before publish or can be configured to be automatically displayed. right now to my experience on these WP implementations the biggest vector of Spam is classic wordpress spam, not specifically webmentions spam. " by Rick Mendes on 2016-08-16 https://rmendes.net/2016/botwikidotorg-about-moderation-i-have-2-implementations-going-on-one
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kline one of the nice things about indieweb is that you own the data, so there are no legal/tos limits to exporting and archiving it all - but is there any sort of standard/common format thats used? having such a format might make it easier to restore your data across multiple versions or even platforms if you want to use other peoples tools to augment your own
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petermolnar I'm thinking of removing any "code" from my articles, putting them into gists and adding an auto-mirroring of those gists with a shortcode in my articles; this way, I could avoid the constand headache of my fenced code blocks in Markdown. Is anyoned doing anything similar? If yes, any pitfalls?
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kline petermolnar: pitfalls: github removes your gists
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petermolnar mirrored locally
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petermolnar not a problem
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petermolnar actually, it could be any git repo, not just gist
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petermolnar it's just simpler with gist
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kline in that case, as long as your readers can all access github, dont see any reason why not
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kline (/whatever other host you use)
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petermolnar oh, not embed
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petermolnar create the page with the file contents
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petermolnar I don't do embeds
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petermolnar so: [gist:whatever] in a post; when the post is published, the gi(s)t repo is cloned locally; when the post is accessed/generated, the shortcode is replaced with the contents of the file from the local clone
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kline oh, thats kind of neat, sure
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petermolnar I'm experiencing massive headaches of having code directly in my posts; makes things problematic, like updates to them, versioning, and doing fixes on Markdwon
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kline yeah, i can understand that
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petermolnar for example, I wanted to normalize Markdown as _ can only be italics, ** can only be strong; no __ or * is allowed
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kline the whole reason includes/modules were developed (alongside reusability)
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petermolnar I ended up messing up numerous code blocks immediately, thanks to /**/ PHP comments
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petermolnar anyway, this seems to be an OK solution, unless someone points out pitfalls
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petermolnar and if github goes away, even though I'm paying for it, I'll just use regular git repositories
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sknebel I'm not sure why you want to use gists and not local files?
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kline the obvious thing for me is that it means you dont need to jump between different editors/manage uploading files to the hosting server, etc
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petermolnar this is a valid point
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petermolnar the reason is that it seemed like a good idea and I haven't though of using local files :D
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kline doing it all in two tabs might be easier for short snippets than a tab, an editor, and an (s)ftp / ssh terminal connecting to the host
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petermolnar but, to be honest, the difference is not terrible; I have a local git clone, which I could edit
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gkbrk the refback approach is going pretty well
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Loqi gkbrk: sknebel left you a message 4 days, 7 hours ago: you mentioned webmention support for reddit: would you want all comments on reddit to be backfeed to your site? or just a single mention to tell you that there is a discussion on reddit?
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gkbrk sknebel: I think comments would be more helpful as you can already use reddit.com/domain/whatever.com to find if someone posted a link
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gkbrk petermolnar: Putting inline code in gists would make your pages heavier and make it harder to update a code piece as you would have to find each gist manually
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petermolnar gkbrk that is indeed a valid problem
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gkbrk what problems do you have with embedded code petermolnar?
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petermolnar I really dislike cross-domain calls; I have no control over the content there
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gkbrk err, i meant inline code snippets
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petermolnar the usually evolve; thus updating them inside an article is significantly harder than updating a git repo
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petermolnar they
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petermolnar not all, of course
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gkbrk for small snippets i find it easier to find the relevant markdown file and edit it there, since the url and the filename are the same
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petermolnar but some "snippets" I add are quite long and I regularly use them elsewhere; so when they get updated, I keep forgetting going back to update the article
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petermolnar the small ones are not a problem; it's the complete scripts I added inline
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gkbrk yeah I also use gist for large files since i don't want my pages to be too long
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gkbrk petermolnar: do you have a static website?
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petermolnar not yet
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petermolnar aiming for it
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gkbrk maybe you can write some code to take files from a central folder and replace it in the markdown
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gkbrk like {% code_include "large_snippet.c" %} to read that file and put it in the markdown
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gkbrk before the whole thing gets parsed
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petermolnar that is what I'm doing with the gist
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petermolnar except there are in separate folders this way
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gkbrk but the advantage of this would be not relying on gist
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gkbrk if you use gist for code highlighting there's prism.js for client side and pygments for server side highlighting
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petermolnar I'm not really relying on gist; I'm doing it to be able to use a namespaced, http based git
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petermolnar and since it's mirrored, even if gist goes away - which I doubt for a long while - I have the content, just as you described
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petermolnar it's a folder with subfolders
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petermolnar locally cloned
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petermolnar a bit complicated, yes, but this way, I can also utilize the existence of the gists
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petermolnar which is just a potential, 'cause I don't have real plans :D
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petermolnar it would be easy to switch to a plain include and get rid of the gist dependency
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petermolnar "dependency"
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gkbrk i should make something like gist that makes standalone code pages
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petermolnar but I'm glad for the criticism, it helps deciding and planning, so thank you
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gkbrk so i can link to them from my pages
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Loqi yea
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gkbrk i love it when loqi agrees :P
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petermolnar the result is like this: https://petermolnar.net/o8tnqh - the code is automatically mirrored locally, git pull --rebase-d on post update and by regular background cron; the gist is linked on the top of the code and the code is auto-included on post generation (which is not static, yet)
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Loqi [Peter Molnar] motionEyeOS mobile phone presence detection for auto on/off based on network IP or MAC address
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petermolnar eh, there is one issue with the URL; I need to add a # before the filename for gists
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gkbrk petermolnar: a local directory, which can also be a git repo, sounds easier
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gkbrk but if gist is useful to you sure
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gkbrk but all that checking gists with a cronjob and updating the website sound like too much work for lazy me
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petermolnar that things is ~8 lines of bash :)
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sknebel might even be interesting to quote code from repos
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sknebel "embed https://repo.url/coolstuff/foo.py@[commithash/branch/tag], line 20-50"
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sknebel if you are writing about pieces of a larger code base
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petermolnar this is also a neat idea; it's also mirror it locally though
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petermolnar ok, gists are a little more confusing that I expected
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petermolnar I might just end up with gkbrk's suggestion of a single local (git)
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aaronpk continuing reading that email thread...
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aaronpk some interesting ideas for a method of "friend requesting" someone who was previously unknown https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2014/000787.html
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aaronpk could be a way to augment vouch to solve the problem of not being able to talk to someone who isn't already in your social circles
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aaronpk also it occurs to me that if email newsletters and "transactional" emails are out of the picture, it becomes easier to have fewer false positives when rejecting spam
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aaronpk the indieweb solution to newsletters or notifications from a system is to have the user explicitly subscribe to that stream, so that the service sending them isn't sending unsolicited messages
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aaronpk also sadly this thread is completely lacking any discussion about targeted abuse https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2014/000794.html
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aaronpk how did this tweet have more than 140 chars in it! https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2184/2444533628_cf6124a757_o.png
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aaronpk it looks like it doesn't anymore... https://twitter.com/blaine/statuses/381574572
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@blaine @factoryjoe that would require me fixing OAuth support for Twitter, then advertising that it works. Early next week, as Eran's working o ... (twitter.com/_/status/381574572)
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kline earlier I asked if there was any sort of standard/common format for exporting your data from indieweb platform for archival/backup/use with other tools, but i dont think there were any suggestions
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kline is there such a suggested format?
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aaronpk kline: the closest thing right now is probably microformats HTML or JSON, since that's the format we use to pass data between sites right now
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aaronpk also welcome, do you have a website already?
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kline i do, but it has 0 indieweb features
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kline might change soon though, and good eye on new nicks
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aaronpk it's easy to tell from the web IRC logs ;-) https://chat.indieweb.org/
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aaronpk do you have a link to your twitter or github account on your website already?
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kline yes, plus keybase
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aaronpk ah cool! you can try signing in to the wiki then, and add yourself to https://indieweb.org/irc-people
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aaronpk there's an option for signing in with your GPG key if you don't want to use twitter/github
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aaronpk https://indieauth.com/gpg
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kline thanks
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kline I'm at work right now, so just getting in the low level stuff like interchange that i can mostly hold in my head, ill look at proper signing up stuff later
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/haneycodes/status/765921782532571136
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@PHP_CEO NO IDEA HOW DOG FOOD IS GOING TO MAKE YOU DEVELOPERS MORE LEAN — FRANKLY SOUNDS DISGUSTING — BUT THERE’S 500 POUNDS OF IT IN THE KITCHEN NOW (twitter.com/_/status/765921782532571136)
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rhiaro waves at kline
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kline rhiaro: ssh, im supposed to be keeping a low profile
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kline rhiaro: when do you come home?
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kline monday pub is much quieter these days
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rhiaro kline: -> #indiechat for offtopic
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@chegalabonga - https://chegalabonga.com/2016/08/17/4036/ Random ##Indieweb question. Are there any tools we could do with that aren't currently ... (twitter.com/_/status/765941976906797057)
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[stefan] Just wanted to say hi, see how this Slack integration works. :wave:
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KevinMarks Hi stefan
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cmal ahoy :)
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[stefan] Hi kevinmarks, @cmal!
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cmal how's it going on your side of the Internet?
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[stefan] Pretty good, thanks! How's everyone in here?
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cmal personally, good :)
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[stefan] tries something
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cmal so phpunit takes 5.9MB to store via composer, that's CRAZY for projects with just a few hundred lines of code lol
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gkbrk snarfed1: so if reddit was implemented in bridgy, would it backfeed any comment with our links or would it backfeed all comments to our links' submission?
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snarfed1 gkbrk: good question! probably both? i don't use reddit so i don't really know its semantics.
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singpolyma gkbrk: I think the proposal was actually for publish of comments, and then backfeed of replies to those comments
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snarfed happily accepts PRs!
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gkbrk so it would publish every blog post in your website as a comment on reddit?
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gkbrk that doesn't sound useful, where would it post the comments?
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aaronpk no, the other way around. it would let you post comments on reddit by posting a comment on your website
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aaronpk same way we reply to people on twitter using our websites
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snarfed gkbrk: bridgy publish is opt in per post, not automatic for all posts
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ChrisAldrich For a model, I like the fact that I can post issues and replies to issues to Github from my Known site
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ChrisAldrich Posting issues is a bit hairy looking and needs some additional UI, but otherwise works pretty well. Having the ability to post to Reddit would be fairly similar.
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ChrisAldrich POSSE to reddit and hackernews can be pretty interesting for increasing one's reach though. What did the final logs for Living in IRC look like in the end, or is the storm not over?
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aaronpk traffic to that post fell off dramatically once it was off the front page of hackernews
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/11/8/hackernews
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Hackernews traffic spike finally dying down https://aaronparecki.com/2016/08/11/8/photo.png
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gkbrk aaronpk: I made a small Go program to run through all the server logs and show me refbacks. It filters my website so it doesn't show in the result.
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gkbrk I haven't received any spam yet but there are a lot of short links
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gkbrk particularly from twitter, i should probably filter that out
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk or you could expand the short links to see what they actually are
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gkbrk the twitter ones just resolve to the URL of the article they're referring to
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gkbrk i already found out about some places I was linked from that I would've otherwise missed
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aaronpk nice
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gkbrk i think ordering them by the number of referred IPs and automatically checking if they link back should give me a meaningful list that I can manually go through
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gkbrk this should make it easy to list mentions without any spam I hope
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miklb ChrisAldrich are you doing the github issues through bridgy?
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ChrisAldrich For the initial issue creation I tend to post natively and PESOS (for better native UX), but replies to Github are all POSSE.
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miklb ok. But the POSSE is with bridgy or something else?
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ChrisAldrich I'm using Known with https://github.com/mapkyca/KnownGithub
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ChrisAldrich I keep meaning to dig into the code and add the additional pieces to make the initial issue creation a bit more streamlined. But I also want to eventually get it working properly for WordPress.
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miklb hmm. I wonder how they are doing that. silo.pub?
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ChrisAldrich I don't think bridgy supports github (yet).
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ChrisAldrich I think silo.pub will do github https://github.com/kylewm/silo.pub/issues/17
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ChrisAldrich Some of the UI issue in the Known plugin is that issues have titles + body, while comments only have a body.
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aaronpk hmm my photo posse via silo.pub isn't working
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snarfed anyone feel like trying out bridgy's medium signup before i announce it?
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ChrisAldrich snarfed: I'll give it a swing since I jumped the gun. :)
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ChrisAldrich You changed the button from Green to b/w? hmmm...
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ChrisAldrich Snarfed: Odd part on Medium's end -- they give me the option to sign up on Bridgy for ALL the sites I'm following (not just those I have access to!)
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snarfed yeah, the green and gray didn't seem to match well
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snarfed IANAD (designer) though
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: yup. medium makes it hard to distinguish following for contributing
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Loqi [indieweb] "The Indieweb Frees Me From “Awaiting Moderation”" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-08-10 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/the-indieweb-frees-me-from-awaiting-moderation-4699122474a2?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "Reply to John Scalzi on “How Blogs Work Today”" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-07-28 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/reply-to-john-scalzi-on-how-blogs-work-today-fb7376ec38c5?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club Meetup Pasadena/Los Angeles 8/10/16" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-08-11 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/homebrew-website-club-meetup-pasadena-los-angeles-8-10-16-9c8887ba5083?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "The IndieWeb-ified Library" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-07-17 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/the-indieweb-ified-library-779d466034dd?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "Homebrew Website Club Meetup Pasadena/Los Angeles 7/27/16" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-07-28 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/homebrew-website-club-meetup-pasadena-los-angeles-7-27-16-fceea407c686?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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snarfed i can find out if i fetch each individual pub from the API separately, but that would add too much latency :/
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snarfed ahahaha guess it's working
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Loqi hehe
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ChrisAldrich thanks Loqi!
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Loqi you're welcome, ChrisAldrich
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ChrisAldrich that was quick too! within seconds of the click....
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snarfed superfeedr++
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Loqi superfeedr has 5 karma
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snarfed i should clean the ?source=rss... query params
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Loqi +1
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ChrisAldrich That's a LOT of webmentions... though most don't have endpoints.
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snarfed lots of links!
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ChrisAldrich One thing I do notice. That particular Medium account is actually a syndication endpoint for my primary site www.boffosocko.com and the webmentions that get sent back to the original all seem to fail. Is this by design since the original posts are there with rel=syndication?
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snarfed yeah, i saw that too. your site complains that it doesn't find the target links, but they are there. not sure what's up.
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ChrisAldrich snarfed: I also notice there's no "retry" button for failed webmentions.
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snarfed huh, true! good feature request
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: heh. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/614
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ChrisAldrich What else is there to check???
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snarfed not much. limited medium API means limited bridgy functionality :P
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snarfed thank you for testing!
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ChrisAldrich I think I actually view it as a feature that the webmention to the originals failed, but now I'm worried that there's something wrong with my primary site.
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ChrisAldrich Glad to help! Congrats!
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@jkphl Holiday time Homebrew Website Clubbing in Nuremberg ❤ #Indieweb https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/765965206115737601/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/765965206115737601)
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ChrisAldrich Is there a method for disabling webmentions from Medium? Now that I think about it, if more silos support sending webmentions like this, then the hail of mentions from syndicated copies will eventually overwhelm the web. At least until everyone is indiewebified...
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: oh weird, the disable button is missing
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snarfed thanks for the catch! will fix.
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ChrisAldrich I suspect that Medium has the ability to disable through interface on their side too, but I'm not seeing it at the moment.
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ChrisAldrich Revoking access can also be found at: https://medium.com/me/settings
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snarfed yup, but that won't actually do anything in this case, since bridgy doesn't need or use the api after initial signup
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ChrisAldrich It's an issue I've seen before with some automatic indieweb tech where it's easy to set up to use micropub, but there's no easy way to remove access... I'll have to remember the cases where I've seen it and file issues.
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[kevinmarks] So do I need to link to medium from my homepage, or is a syndication link on the post enough?
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: neither. this is just outgoing webmentions, not backfeed or publish yet since their API is limited
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ChrisAldrich Medium--
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Loqi medium has -1 karma (0 in this channel)
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snarfed ChrisAldrich: fixed the disable button
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ChrisAldrich shall I test the disable button or leave it for a while to test anything else in the longer term? Otherwise, posts will have Loqi spamming chat...
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snarfed not exactly spam, more like dupes
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snarfed up to you!
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snarfed you can always re-sign-up to test other things
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ChrisAldrich anything else I can try to break before exiting?
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snarfed this has been great, i think we're set
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ChrisAldrich Congrats snarfed!
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snarfed thanks!
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ChrisAldrich Disabling seems to work properly.
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cmal hey has somebody an article that reads through the corporate propaganda surrounding internet governance changes? I just read some ICANN/IANA functions might be privatized to a non-profit but I find it hard to come by more infos that are analysis and not just PR bullshit
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bear for those using GitHub Pages, they just made it easier to configure where Pages will pull the site info from -- https://github.com/blog/2228-simpler-github-pages-publishing
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aaronpk oh that's a nice change
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aaronpk i'm also a big fan of github's short feature announcement blog posts :)
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voxpelli very nice :)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Added Medium support to Bridgy. Only outgoing webmentions so far, hopefully more eventually if they add API support. Happy IndieWebing!" by Ryan Barrett on 2016-08-17 https://snarfed.org/2016-08-17_18435
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gkbrk awesome! no need to copy generated documentation to gh-pages anymore
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "snarfed.org" https://snarfed.org/2016-08-17_18435
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gkbrk by the way I have an idea for bridgy
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snarfed gkbrk: shoot!
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gkbrk bridgy can provide a small javascript include that sends it an ajax request on pageload if there is a referrer.
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gkbrk then bridgy servers can see if the referer host is in a "trusted" list like reddit or hackernews or whatnot
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gkbrk if it is, bridgy can send a webmention
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gkbrk this should allow for much more services faster
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gkbrk like google analytics with more Freedom™ and IndieWeb™
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@schnarfed Added @Medium to https://t.co/HIotMvjlxp. Only outgoing webmentions now, hopefully more later if they add API support. Happy #indieweb-ing! (twitter.com/_/status/765977896506630145)
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gkbrk of course there would be no analytics
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snarfed gkbrk: the goal is to add outgoing webmention support to more hosted blog services? or custom blogs?
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gRegorLove Wouldn't that send a lot of webmentions?
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snarfed discover a lot, yes. send a lot, no.
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gRegorLove Like every time someone clicks from A to B, it sends a wm?
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snarfed gkbrk: it's actually even easier, superfeedr polls feeds for us, so we don't need JS or PuSH at all
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gkbrk no, it'll only send for a predetermined list of referer hosts
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KevinMarks Hm, bridgy medium asked me to choose from a huge list of blogs that aren't mine. Maybe ones I replied to?
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snarfed KevinMarks: discussed earlier. it's everything you follow. medium's API makes it hard to distinguish btw following and contributing
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snarfed gkbrk: you'll be interested in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/420 and https://snarfed.org/global-webmention-service and https://telegraph.p3k.io/superfeedr
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ChrisAldrich KevinMarks, hopefully your medium blogs show up at the top -- mine did, so it wasn't too difficult.
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KevinMarks Ah. Also it says it's sending webmentions to cloudfront images
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Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Ryan Barrett's tweet" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-08-17 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-ryan-barretts-tweet-c365d29e49
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aaronpk hm i just realized my indieweb posts don't usually get picked up by superfeedr here. i wonder what i need to do to fix that
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gkbrk snarfed: I was thinking of places without APIs or RSS feeds. The other day I got a refback from a gitter chatroom and a random reddit comment
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gkbrk this allowed me to reply to them/check them out
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aaronpk gkbrk: you could build that JS yourself to prototype it right?
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snarfed KevinMarks: it'll skip the images once it gets to them :P
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aaronpk i don't think it needs to be built by bridgy
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gkbrk aaronpk: yeah, along with a custom server/script
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snarfed gkbrk: agreed for those cases. sounds fun though!
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gkbrk but bridgy support might make it more useful until more websites provide built-in support or APIs
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snarfed you don't even need server support at all, you can do the entire thing in JS if you want, since the wm goes to the same host that serves it
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aaronpk i don't think you even need a custom server script if the webmention endpoint is on the same domain as your page
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snarfed jinx :P
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aaronpk and if the webmention endpoint is on a different domain, just ask them to add the appropriate CORS headers
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snarfed although the server needs to include the referer header in the page so the JS can see it
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gkbrk javascript can access referer iirc
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snarfed huh really?! i don't see how, but ok
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aaronpk yeah that's how google analytics gets it
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gkbrk but you don't even need webmentions if its on the same domain, you can directly add it to your database
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aaronpk i used to build little tracking scripts like that for my site ages ago
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voxpelli snarfed: "document.referrer" ;)
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snarfed voxpelli++ lol
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Loqi voxpelli has 90 karma (83 in this channel)
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snarfed really really isn't a web developer
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gkbrk i was about to type that :P
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gkbrk missed the glorious internet points
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voxpelli has Dash.app on a global keyboard shortcut :P
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snarfed Dash++
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Loqi dash has 4 karma (1 in this channel)
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gkbrk ++
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gkbrk someone thought about edge cases
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gkbrk ++
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KevinMarks Ah, right the images have vanished from the list now
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KevinMarks Hm. The wm shows up as unknown on this post
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/instantbcc.html
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Loqi Instant BCC 2016-04-22
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KevinMarks So medium needs more mf2
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snarfed KevinMarks: s/more/any/ :P
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[kevinmarks] As the Mad Hatter said to Alice "you couldn't really have less"
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[kevinmarks] http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/675020-mad-hatter-would-you-like-a-little-more-tea-alice
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[kevinmarks] Corrected, March hare
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voxpelli should add non-mf2 fallback to the endpoint :P
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KevinMarks I'm on TWiG today, send me things to talk about
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GWG KevinMarks, Indiewebcamp NYC 2
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 44 minutes ago: also search Twitter for PDF14 indieweb
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GWG Use the new URL?
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GWG Space is limited, registration is free.
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GWG Maybe Jarvis's dotnyc show can cover it.
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@kloptbaze OSB 2015 - #Micropub: The Emerging #API Standard for IndieWeb Apps - Aaron... https://www.youtube.com/ via @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/766002697703133184)
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gkbrk where is Loqi getting the blog posts?
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voxpelli gkbrk: Superfeedr
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gkbrk so is there a list of rss feeds?
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aaronpk not exactly
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aaronpk https://superfeedr.com/tracker
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aaronpk the list is "every blog that superfeedr indexes"
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snarfed superfeedr++
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Loqi superfeedr has 6 karma
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snarfed can't do that enough
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voxpelli superfeedr++
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Loqi superfeedr has 7 karma
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voxpelli agree :)
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gkbrk i see
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gkbrk so you guys pay 2 dollars for access to the feeds
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voxpelli (Superfeedr supports non-RSS feeds as well btw, like mf2 pages)
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aaronpk yeah
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gkbrk and it only notifies you when there's for example indieweb in the contents or the title?
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gRegorLove The tweets are from searching terms: indieweb, webmention
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aaronpk right
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voxpelli "you guys" as in aaronpk does, he is Loqi's father :)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Liked this tweet: https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/765977896506630145 Ryan Barrett on Twitter: “Added @Medium to https://t.co/HIotMvjlxp. Only outgoing webmentions now, hopefully more later if they add API support. Happy #indieweb-ing!”" by Scott Kingery on 2016-08-17 http://techlifeweb.com/14854-2/
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gkbrk But doesn't that somehow contribute to the centralization of the web? superfeedr could for whatever reason decide to pull the feeds under your feet
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gkbrk or charge you 10x
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aaronpk yeah then i go somewhere else
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gkbrk i'm not talking about the bot, just any service using it in general
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aaronpk it's not centralized, it's a service
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AngeloGladding i have a related inquiry
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AngeloGladding i was just reading up on PuSH
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AngeloGladding and superfeedr is currently the hub to PuSH to
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AngeloGladding i was hoping PuSH would allow me to *request* PuSHes but it seems the author of the site must explicitly declare my site as a PuSH hub
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AngeloGladding in other words it kind of expects such a "centralized" hub
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aaronpk not exactly
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aaronpk your site declares the hub you publish to
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AngeloGladding oh ok
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AngeloGladding for some reason it just hit me
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AngeloGladding you can have a long list of hubs
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AngeloGladding if you wanted to fully decentralize it
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AngeloGladding like if these indiewebers wanted to stay connected: https://angelo.lahacker.net/people
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AngeloGladding they'd each have to list all twenty as PuSH hubs in order to stay apprised of #IndieWeb mentions
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gkbrk aaronpk: but they can censor whatever articles they don't like and allow the ones they like, right?
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aaronpk no that's not how it works
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aaronpk i publish stuff on my site, my site indicates where i publish PuSH updates to
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aaronpk so if you want to subscribe to my realtime feed, you can subscribe to my hub that you discover by looking at my web page
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AngeloGladding oh
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aaronpk when you subscribe via PuSH, you tell the hub which URL you want to receive the updates at
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aaronpk gkbrk: sure, and if that ever becomes a problem then i will just not use them anymore.
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gkbrk but how would you even notice it?
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AngeloGladding you use your own "switchboard"
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AngeloGladding sorry, that was directed at aaron
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gkbrk unless it happens to your post or someone reports it, you wouldn't know
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aaronpk gkbrk: that's not really the point
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aaronpk using superfeedr's tracker right now is way easier than me building out crawling and indexing infrastructure. even if I were do build that out, I would likely not do as good of a job as superfeedr, so i'm happy to use them.
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AngeloGladding their job has been dramatically simplified through receiving notifications
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AngeloGladding the hub's that is
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aaronpk AngeloGladding: yeah i built my own PuSH hub because I wanted to see how hard it was, and also to own more of my site's infrastructure
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aaronpk superfeedr does like 10 things so it's kind of confusing. they do have a system that proactively crawls and indexes feeds in addition to being a PuSH hub.
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AngeloGladding so that brings us back to my earlier point.. when we all have our own PuSH hubs our <head>s will be packed with rels
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aaronpk ??
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aaronpk you only need to link to the one push hub you publish to
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AngeloGladding oh
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AngeloGladding and there's a standard method of consumption?
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aaronpk have you read up on the PuSH spec?
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/how-to-push
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AngeloGladding i am now
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AngeloGladding alright
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AngeloGladding i think you've cleared it up
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AngeloGladding i had just pulled up the page when i saw chatter about it here
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AngeloGladding wasn't sure if it was the right tool for the job -- now i see that it probably is
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aaronpk cool
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AngeloGladding thanks
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gkbrk so does the PuSH hubs take you off their list if they receive too many errors from your server
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gkbrk or is this up to the implementations
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aaronpk a lot of those details are up to the implementation
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aaronpk also it's not really a "they" in the case of you publishing to your hub, since it's a hub that you choose and might actually be built in to your website. wordpress has a built-in hub for example.
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gkbrk i mean the subscribers
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AngeloGladding the wp indieweb plug-in?
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AngeloGladding or wp core
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aaronpk wp core i think? might be a different plugin? can't remember
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aaronpk gkbrk: "Hubs SHOULD retry notifications repeatedly until successful (up to some reasonable maximum over a reasonable time period)."
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aaronpk so it's up to the implementation
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aaronpk also normally the lifetime of the subscription is relatively short, like a day or a week, so subscribers have to continually re-subscribe anyway, which helps with dropping failed subscribers
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bear hey all - if your a gnupg or libgcrypt user ... https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-6313
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bear on OS X you can use: `brew update && brew upgrade`
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gkbrk aaronpk: oh the re-subscribe thing is pretty good then
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gkbrk UDP services generally use a similar method, you send a packet and receive responses and updates for a limited amount of time
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gkbrk so you keep sending packets to keep 'em coming
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snarfed bear++ is our own personal http://requires.io/
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Loqi bear has 159 karma (126 in this channel)
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gRegorLove PuSH is a plugin for WP: https://wordpress.org/plugins/pubsubhubbub/
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gRegorLove Wordpress.com blogs have PuSH though
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plindner Greets indieweb folks. I am with you now. Set up hosted Known today. Learning and listening so I can help. I'm on http://1500wordMTU.com/
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gRegorLove Welcome, plindner!
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[kevinmarks] Hi Paul
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plindner Hi Kevin - finally made it over here. Fun times ahead.
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AngeloGladding hi Paul, welcome
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AngeloGladding kevinmarks i reached out to kylewm regarding the `mf2util` issue
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AngeloGladding ran into another late last night with the same issue
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@miklb @AaronGustafson I’m in #indieweb-dev IRC, I’ll ask :-) (twitter.com/_/status/766032617925910529)
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@sailorlion If you ever wondered what has happened to some of the popular sites. This site can be quite sad to visit though.... https://indieweb.org/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/766036208203993090)
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KevinMarks Micropub.rocks and silo.pub plugged
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KevinMarks Hm, the combination of pale blue link text on white and font weight 200 makes bridgy hard to read on android
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snarfed1 thanks for the feedback KevinMarks! you know how to pick good colors, right? i'd happily merge a PR! :P
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KevinMarks I think it's that on android you get roboto which actually has a 200 weight
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KevinMarks But the blue is a bit light as well
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snarfed1 fwiw i use it on android a lot and i'm ok with the contrast, but i'm probably not sensitive enough or visually impaired
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KevinMarks I am in daylight at the moment too
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KevinMarks That blue on white is a 3.6 wcag
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snarfed1 i don't know what that means :P
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snarfed1 (i'm guessing contrast measurement)
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bear what is wcag
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wcag" yet. Would you like to create it?
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bear what is WCAG
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WCAG" yet. Would you like to create it?
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bear WCAG is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, see https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/
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Loqi ok
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bear wcag >> WCAG
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bear WCAG << wcag
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Loqi ok, I added "wcag" to the "See Also" section of /WCAG
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KevinMarks1 WCAG is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines - a series of recommendations for making web sites more usable,
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KevinMarks1 ah
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snarfed1 thanks! there's no section 3.6 though.
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snarfed1 gotta run, bbi15
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KevinMarks1 WCAG << http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/
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Loqi ok, I added "http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/" to the "See Also" section of /WCAG
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KevinMarks1 http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/#%23428bca-on-white
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KevinMarks1 3.6 is the contrast ratio for that blue on white, which is exacerbated by the thin font
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aaronpk is 3.6 good or bad? i can't really tell
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KevinMarks1 bad - it fails for enything except very bold type
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KevinMarks1 7 is recommended minimum
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KevinMarks1 21 is the actual maximum
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aaronpk it would be helpful if that site showed the scale and recommendations
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aaronpk i also don't know what "passes AA" means
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KevinMarks1 AA means OK for normal vision; AAA for poor vision
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aaronpk where are you finding these definitions?
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bear how do I get loqi to do a redirect from wcag to WCAG ?
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KevinMarks1 https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-contrast.html
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aaronpk you can't from IRC, cause search is case insensitive
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bear oh the << is a see-also thing only then - gotcha
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Loqi There was an error: Array
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aaronpk ha oops
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KevinMarks1 these standards were written before the trend for super-thin type took off
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KevinMarks1 I'd add another 1.5 multiplier for that
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KevinMarks1 I did a comparison grid https://kevinmarks.github.io/textweights.html
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/espiekermann/status/764755122165538816
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@espiekermann Light type on screen is a juvenile folly. #typography https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cpz0uRTWAAAqPis.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/764755122165538816)
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KevinMarks1 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/too-faint-type-on-bridgy-android
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] too-faint type on brid.gy android http://known.kevinmarks.com/file/7afa399d60a042856e0322ba2d94fa0e/thumb.png
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KevinMarks1 the otehr thing is that my screen has really small pixels so can accurately show the hairline type, which makes it even less visible
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gRegorLove KevinMarks1: What's your recommendation for svg image fallback? I'm working on replacing my logo with svg.
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gRegorLove Also how does an <img> link to the svg compare to the <svg> element directly?
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: if you put svg in directly you can use its elements as DOM nodes. e.g. apply styles from your global css etc...
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aaronpk and saves an http request
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KartikPrabhu it will be cached anyway so the request won't be that much of a problem
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KevinMarks Fallback is only for ie8, so either don't worry or use special irc workaround
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gRegorLove irc workaround?
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KevinMarks s/irc/ie8/
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gRegorLove Ah, gotcha
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gRegorLove Thanks, good to know.
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KartikPrabhu i use modernizr to detect svg support. and use fallback images if not